Latest / The Elevator Careers Podcast / The People Skills that Make or Break an Elevator Company | Tom Esch, Part 2

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The People Skills that Make or Break an Elevator Company | Tom Esch, Part 2 · The Elevator Careers Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty simple in a way, Matt.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's giving your word and keeping it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when you can't keep it, I mean if if we could give our word and keep it 100% of the time, that's the best way to build trust.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is, you and I are both not always gonna be 100% on our word.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're not we're imperfect people.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: We might accidentally double book and we don't get online together.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the best way is do what you say you're gonna do.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when you don't, when there's a breakdown, own the breakdown and say, Matt, I told you I'd be here at at one o'clock.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot all about it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I broke down.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Keep the excuse short, keep the story about what dog chewed up what homework paper is super short and say I recommit and then recommit and show up and be there for the person.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I think that's one of the best ways to build trust.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Matt Allred.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: In this podcast, we talk to the people whose lives and careers are dedicated to the vertical transportation industry, to inform and share lessons learned, building upon the foundation of those who have gone before to inspire the next generation of elevator careers.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: When talent is mission critical, call the All Red Group.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: With industry expertise, top talent, and exceptional customer service, you need the All-Red Group on your side.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Your priority is their priority.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Call now 404-890-0445.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to today's episode where we explore the critical intersection of leadership, communication, and organizational success.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is part two of my interview with Tom Ash, a renowned expert in workplace dynamics and conflict resolution.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Tom brings over two decades of experience in helping leaders understand the nuanced people stuff that can make or break a business.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We'll dive into how leadership skills, emotional intelligence, and conscious communication can transform workplace culture, prevent costly mistakes, and drive organizational performance.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're a business owner, manager, or aspiring leader, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating more effective, human-centered workplaces.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Tom, welcome to the show.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Matt.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to have you back.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I uh you know got a chance to read your book and uh you know kind of dig into to some of those things you're saying.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I think it's fascinating.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: It certainly applies to the to the work at hand.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, you called it personal accountability and power and how contractors can uh build a stronger safety culture, which I think is is fascinating.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So certainly safety is interesting, but the the culture piece, right?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: That that safety is actually a culture, I think, is uh I just hadn't thought of it that way.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but in it you give uh three points to growing up and taking safety seriously.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know you're talking about putting on big boy pants and being a good communicator, staying focused on the job.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, talk to us about each of those as we just kind of dive into this topic.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that uh each of those kind of goes back to a story that happened.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh all those big boy pants, good communicator, stay focused on the job.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Those are all actual things that uh business owners said.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Probably now, what, 10 years ago, 10, 11 years ago here in Minnesota, southern Minnesota, I was leading a going to be leading a demo saw safety program for an underground contractor.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's a saw that weighs about 30 pounds, has has a lot of RPMs and power, runs a 14 or 12-inch diamond blade, and potentially a very dangerous tool.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was demoing this tool, which I had sold for at least 12 years and knew a lot about.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the owner was talking to the guys, uh, his company of maybe 80, 90 guys at the annual meeting.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, We had too many injuries last year, guys.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: He said, uh, some guy yelled at some guy, and then he and the other and the guy who got yelled at got injured.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, put on your big boy pants.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, he said, be a be a good communicator, you know, put on your big boy pants, um, do the right thing, you know, grow up, basically.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: He was sort of scolding them in a way, but he was also giving a really interesting message.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sitting there listening to this owner.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm about to ready to get up to give technical safety, and I'm thinking, this guy is talking about culture.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about communication, he's talking about emotional maturity.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's also talking about, he didn't say it, but he was basically talking about what happens to the brain when we get yelled at, unless you're a Buddhist monk, which are proven to have some of the least reactive brains by a study at the University of Wisconsin-Madison years ago, or you're really emotionally mature and not afraid of this other person, you're gonna react.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, you're gonna go into a fight or flight state.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: The amygdala, the reptilian brain gets activated when we're yelled at or when we're threatened in any way.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And getting yelled at can be a threat, even if somebody's just raising their voice on a job site.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, but I'd you have this little now men are great at hiding it, then they almost never looked panicked.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the if you if you put a functional MRI machine on the brain, you would show almost no activity in the prefrontal cortex.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it was in I'm sitting there listening with all that I know about brains and communication and emotional intelligence, and I'm like, this owner is talking about culture and what I'm passionate about doing, which is helping people in high-intensity, dangerous situations communicate with more care, with more humanity, with more grace.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think let me let me pause you for a second.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you're saying is that if I am not communicating with with the pause, sorry, with the with the grace in the just and I go out and I just kind of attack somebody with my words, and they're they're they're more likely to respond with the the reptilian brain versus a conscious, oh let me think through it type of response, which is you know, if they're not thinking, in other words, they're just reacting, it's not going to be an ideal situation.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is that fair to say?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Very fair.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a time for a yell.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: If if your four-year-old is crossing an eight-lane highway, that's the right time to yell if you can't get to them and scoop them up.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a time for yelling, and there's a time to kick in and have that reptilian brain go, but not on a job site in the middle of the day, where you know, in construction, as you know, Matt, yelling and tempers are pretty common.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: People are under high stress, you know, deadlines, traffic, trouble, their home life might be a mess, and they and they bring all that and boom, they're yelling at somebody.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're operating heavy or dangerous equipment, you know, the less thinking is not a good combination there.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the owner was basically saying this guy got yelled, this guy yelled at a guy, the guy who got yelled at got injured because he wasn't thinking right.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like the owner knew he knew enough that he didn't spell it all up, but he's like, Yelling isn't a good way to create a safe work culture, guys.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Be a put your big boy pants on, you know.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Which you could say is, you know, kind of a slam in a way, but it was that was a clever way to say it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I thought tell me how you interpret that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, you talked about the Buddhists and and you know, most I think that's awesome that they've that they've worked and and maybe maybe meditated enough that their minds aren't as reactive in that way.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: But how would you interpret putting your big boy pants on and and responding in more mature ways, perhaps?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're saying um be an adult, don't act like a don't yell like a little, you know, kid on the parking lot who's mad at his buddy.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Put on your mature adult pants, operate from the adult ego state, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not that, you know, transactional analysis, you got your adult ego state, and then above that, you got your parental, and then you got your rebel reactive child.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you got sort of the angry parent yelling at the rebel child instead of the big boy pants, would be the adult ego state, the mature ego state.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can still have some emotion, but not not yelling or demeaning someone, which often happens.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, dumb ASS, what are you doing?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's very common phrase.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's very condescending, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I think what I'm taking away from what you're saying is approach them like an equal.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You got two adults here.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't need you don't need to try to, you know, uh offend somebody or put them down in order to get a message across.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe they maybe they do need to pay attention to safety, or maybe they do need to put on their hard hat or whatever the case may be.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you don't have to uh yeah, uh pretend like you're you're better than them in order to convey that message.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Better, smarter, stronger, the seniority.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, of course, it was a higher ranking guy yelling at a lower-ranked guy, and that's a whole nother piece of my work and my thinking.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Second question, Tom, is is you talk a lot about rank, which I I was fascinated by this idea of power, and and again, you use the word rank and how that affects.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I I guess initially I wanted to see if you could just kind of dissect power, seniority, and rank.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of definitions of power, it's a lot of definitions of rank.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Seniority is the simplest word there, but I would pair seniority with rank, and I would pick, say, Rollo May's definition of power is the ability to cause or prevent a change, which I think is awesome and simple.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Power is just the ability to cause or prevent a change.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And rank is a different animal.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Rank is kind of the way power gets structured.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Think of like the pecking order with chickens, sure.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, the structure within a military division, you know, you're gonna have rank, you know, the Catholic Church, which is my background, as you know, very hierarchical, male organizations, strict hierarchy.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: That there's a rank.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So what is rank?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Rank is simply it's a lot of things.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But in my my approach and study of rank is informed by my one of my teachers, Dr.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Arnold Mendel, who has a very expansive definition of rank.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this huge.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: His his idea of rank is that it's it's both the pecking order, the positional, you know, ranking, the position that you have within an organization, but it's also your internal um rank, your internal strength, your internal power in a sense, to be able to influence other people.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if I am maybe low ranked on a job site, maybe I've only been there a month, but I'm confident.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm a former college football player, I'm big, I'm outspoken, I'm gregarious, and I'm funny, and I'm and I'm you're pretty good at what I'm doing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have quick rank on that job site, partly because of my personality, not because of my position.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the new man, I'm the low man on the totem pole.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get the crappy jobs.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, so power is the ability to cause, prevent, change.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Rank is the way power gets structured in organizations or in an individual.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, uh, there's lots of different types of rank, but I'd say rank and seniority are kind of similar, especially positional rank is almost the same as what we call seniority in construction.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's how many years have you been around?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: How good are you at driving a backhoe?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: How much do the other guys respect you, you know, when I when I was selling supplies?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was one of the least ranked in the warehouse when I ran the warehouse because I I didn't know how to run a forklift very skillfully.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I did run it, but there was always two other two or three other guys who could run it way better than I could.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I had low rank with with the forklift, and I eventually did crash it into the garage, Matt, and I and I was quickly moved into sales.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say they took your license away, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like all right, and quickly moved into sales, which was which was good, but is that useful at all with the power, the rank, the seniority?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think what what's intriguing for me is you've you've brought in some different categories and and some different, you know, it's not just about my title on the org chart.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: If people like me, if people respect me, I have more more more power to to like you say, to influence the change, to to maybe uh even push back on the boss and say, boss, we don't want to do it that way.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or if I'm even if I'm the boss, if if I maybe don't have a lot of confidence in my own decision making, you know, my guys are gonna outrank me or in a way, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna they're gonna out out overpower uh you know, just just have more power.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I think we see that in different organizations, different different times, and I've heard different uh you know, inmates are running the prison, whatever.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: You you've heard different phrases.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess my question in regard to that, you know, specifically around safety, how have you seen uh safety affected by some of these power dynamics uh you know, ranked sure, yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Very in some moments, very dramatically and deeply.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have a number of stories, and if you've seen you've seen my book, there's a story of a a man who was killed in a trench because the general superintendent made a change in the plan for how they were going to retrieve these five trench boxes in a 30-foot deep trench.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody knew it was dangerous, everybody knew it would have been safer to do it mechanically with the backhoe and rigging them up, which they could have done.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But he thought it was quicker and cheaper to go down and do it by hand.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, I'm going down, and then laborer said, I'll go with you, boss.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the Hispanic guy went down and he was lower.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so when that soil collapsed, he was the one killed.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: No one spoke up.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I know the safety guy, and I know that they had a really good safety plan, they had really good pre-construction planning, even though it was a complex, difficult job.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But they changed the plan.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody spoke up.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the safety guy that I know went to each person, you know, and said, said, Matt, did you know that was a dangerous decision?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I did.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Did you speak up and say anything?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Joe, did you know that that was dangerous?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I did.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Did you speak up?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sam, did you know that?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: He went to every person, more than 10.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And out of that developed a whole program that Caterpillar now sells called Speak Up Listen Up, which is basically a program designed to help people speak up, help people listen up.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it's a very basic, fundamental program.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't get to the deeper reasons why people don't speak up.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: You could train people all day long.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, Matt, just speak up.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why on that job site didn't anyone feel able to say, wait a minute, boss, I'm not sure that's a great decision.
• 16:55
  unknown: Right?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's rethink it.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because the unwritten rule in construction, as everybody knows, is you don't speak up to the boss, you don't interrupt uh or or try to influence the person in authority in many cultures.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's changing slowly, and in the best cultures, that's very different, and and it is more open to feed.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are cultures around, I've been in some of those too.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, the rank thing, it can be huge.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: You might have a brand new guy who really knows a lot about something, but he doesn't feel he has the rank, doesn't have the influence to say anything, and he can quickly get cut down, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: He might try to speak up.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: What do you know, man?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you know?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, get out of here, you know.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he's he's gonna navigate those relationships carefully, and generally you respect these unwritten rules.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're like stronger than the written rules.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's it's risky, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if I'm the low man on the totem pole and maybe I haven't even been there very long, and I'm challenging, you know, the the foreman that's been at it for 25 years.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a huge amount of risk for me to say, uh huge amount of risk.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I don't I don't think that's safe.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have no credibility, if especially if I'm new to the you know, to the force, and it's like you're being lazy, right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's all kinds of reasons why I would now be suspect, you know.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just get down there and do it, right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and so um yeah, I guess it's human nature, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That it that these dynamics are there, and I'm and I appreciate you just kind of uh pointing them out and and really helping helping me see them because I've I you know I've been in those types of situations, but I I think it's gotta become conscious in order for anybody to start speaking up, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't they speak up?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've been uh in situations where yeah, I probably should have spoken up and and didn't.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's almost gotta be uh and I guess that's part of what you do, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is you train different groups, different companies, different workforces to uh not only to speak up, but you gotta train the the the boss, the foreman, whoever, to be be willing to listen once somebody does speak up.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and there's a great um book that covers this better than my book.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Have you heard have you read the book by Malcolm Gladwell, Outliers?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I if I have, it's been quite a while because I know I do remember reading some of his stuff.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's a brilliant chapter on um what happened in the Korean airline world some 20 plus years ago, where there was a number of crashes, I want to say seven crashes in a short period of time, 10 years or less.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they were about ready to go out of business, and they brought in some consultants to figure out what's going on in the cockpits that these planes are crashing so many and people being killed.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they realized um that there was there was nothing close to any feedback between the captain and the co-pilots.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they know it's a best practice in in almost any culture, construction or the airplane culture.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you can have feedback back and forth and open conversation, you're gonna have more safety as a general idea.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Most people would instantly get that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, hey, boss, there's fog there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Captain, are you aware of that?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm noticing this, hey, the fuel gauge is this.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying even within even within the cockpit, the the co-pilot wasn't comfortable talking to the guy next to him and saying, hey, there's a telephone poll, and you're about to hit it, or whatever the case maybe.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: In the Korean world, as I've understand it, through Gladwell's eyes, and I'm pretty sure he's a pretty smart cookie, it's probably not a perfect story, but I think it's accurate that in Korean culture, I know that there are nine layers of social status or rank.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know Korean culture, there's nine different layers, very clear, almost like a cast system near the top.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in the in the cockpit, the pilot is kind of like at the top of the pecking order.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: The co-pilots are kind of like nobody's and the captain is like a god in that pre- you know the culture of long ago in the Korean air world.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's changed quite a bit since they made an intervention.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, we've got to change the culture in the cockpit.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they did it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It took a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of energy.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're basically changing the rewriting the cultural rules.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in the cockpit here, when you're flying a plane, get rid of those nine layers of hierarchy or whatever layers are within that cockpit.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're all equal in terms of seeing, noticing things.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: The captain still has status, he's got rank to make certain decisions.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you have every right to give your input, every right to say, Captain, I'm not sure that's right.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, wait a minute.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're gonna need to slow down.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're coming in at a tight landing here with a lot of wind, you know, on a short runway.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should change it to this or that.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, a very dramatic situation that Gladwell retells.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I retell it in my book because I think it's fascinating.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the the idea that you can change a culture dramatically in the interest of safety, and of course, then the results for many, many years were awesome.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: No crashes, no near miss crashes, like phenomenal results.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting to me.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it translates directly to construction to me, where you have you have this hierarchy, and you have sort of the general superintendent, the foreman who can act or be like a kind of god, and the ego gets mixed up in the you know, the I'm the I'm the man, and I'm you know, um, and it is mostly men.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: The women are coming in, women are coming in and interrupting things in an exciting way in my mind.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anyway, that's fascinating to me, the Korean story.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, thank you for listening.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is Matt with a brief message from our sponsor.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: The All Red Group has been recruiting elevator industry talent for over 14 years.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you are looking to grow your business and hire great people, contact the all-red group at allredgroup.com.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a l-l-r-ed, g-r-o-up.com, and talk with Matt and his team about how they can assist you.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the show.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard I've heard some some, you know, within the elevator industry, some some interesting stories of, you know, the mechanic uh has his helper and the helper is, you know, maybe a one, two-year apprentice or something, and and um, and I know that safety's come a long way, right?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point, um it has to be not only taught, but continually taught that that there is a time and and you know, if you don't feel safe, right, you gotta speak up.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta be willing to say it, or if you are worried about somebody else, there's there's a reason you're feeling that way.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can't let that stop you from you can't let your fear stop you from from speaking up and saying, Hey, here's here's my concern.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: This this is not safe, or we, you know, we don't have the right equipment, or whatever the case may be.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh it's yeah, it's a it's an interesting uh journey, and I and I'm sure yeah, you see that all the time in in the construction space.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh obviously this this rank, the the the power as as we're talking about, um certainly is true for safety.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm curious uh how have you seen it also affect like directly affect bottom line, maybe even outside of safety?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh how does rank impact culture outside of safety?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or even the bottom line, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think you had mentioned uh something about uh in a previous conversation, something about you know, somebody's about to to lose a contract because of one of the people on their team and they had to have a conversation.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you remember which one I'm talking about?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do, yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: That the uh the high-ranking estimator who sometimes made people feel stupid um and barked at people now and again.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty high rank because he's he's landing the big projects, the multi-million dollar projects are being landed.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's landing them, and he's pretty high-ranked dude.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and no one's at great risk of getting run over by a skid steer crushed by a truck or falling off the 20th floor with this guy because he's estimating, he's in the office, but there's serious risk of losing projects, and partly because he didn't manage his emotions very well, and he was very much old school, you know, bark at people, put people down, you know.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, another client had a had a guy, a senior foreman, who would regularly like get the paperwork from guys at the end of the day and say, This is bull crap, and he'd tear it up, fold it in a ball, and throw it in the garbage.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Some guys work, you know, reporting the job, you know, writing numbers down or estimating.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: But but this estimator was uh clearly misusing his rank.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: The owner kind of afraid to interrupt him, afraid to disturb him, like of many owners.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the the worst actors are the best producers, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: The owners like that guy's great, you know, uh high performers, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh who is it?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody, somebody talks about high, don't call them high performers, call them jerks, because I mean they might make you a lot of money, but they're not really high performers.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: In the modern world, the high performers are all of that, and they have good people skills and they treat people fairly, and they're good at not making others feel stupid, or if they bark at anyone, it better be for the right reason and it better be carefully done.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he wasn't doing that.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: The owner was afraid to talk to him, and I I coached that owner to eventually talk to this guy.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is good eight months ago or so.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now they have they had one conversation, and as I hear it, there's been no bad behavior since.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, sometimes that bad behavior just goes underground for a while and comes back up worse, and sometimes people actually make a shift, and and that's enough to just have an intervention and to have somebody say something, and okay, yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think maybe maybe he didn't realize just how close they were to losing the contract, or maybe they didn't really he didn't realize just how you know impactful that behavior was on you know on the client or whatever the case was.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was not real aware of his own impact.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And this actually this goes with high rank, uh, Matt.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting to me.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: The higher your rank, often, the lower your awareness for how you impact other people, and and it kind of makes intuitive sense also.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: The the king is not necessarily paying attention to everybody's feelings back at the castle or the peasants down in the village.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's just trying to keep the enemies away, keep the people fed, keep the queen happy.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's not worried.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, in this case, this high-ranking guy, estimator, he wasn't worried about the feelings of the other young people.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't worried about he underestimated, you know, the feelings of the client they were trying to engage in this multi-million, you know, several multi-million dollar different projects.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the owner finally had the talk with the guy, and the owner would occasionally have to jump in, intervene, you know, and do something to save a project, a very, very lucrative project.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and he's not having to do that anymore because the guy is uh acting with more awareness and and being more um you know professional in his behavior.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's the to me, that's that's a huge insight, just awareness, because uh, you know, as we're talking through this, I'm I'm thinking through you know different times in my life.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a it was like a nonprofit, but I was on the board, and I remember being surprised at times that that people would you know approach me with almost like deferentially, like I had some kind of power.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a it was just for me, it surprised me that that I had this power because I didn't know it.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think just making people aware sometimes, like you talk about the you know, the the higher your rank, the less aware.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think as parents, I think as a business owner, it surprised me sometimes just how much of an impact I have on some of my employees.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's almost kind of scary sometimes to think, oh wow, if I say this wrong, if I react wrong, if I put too much emotion into what I say, wow, I can do a lot more damage than I even realized.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: The the role that we're in has more power than we know.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like the higher we are ranked and the higher the role, the less awareness we have of how much people you use the a key word that I haven't said yet, and that's deference.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We give deference, we we give special treatment to.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I also didn't use the word privilege.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love the word privilege, it gets mixed up with racial conversations and different things, but rank is really connected to privilege.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: You have certain privileges, you're on the board of this nonprofit.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: You have access to information and to people making decisions.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it's a little nonprofit, it it might be significant.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and the people trying to get the grant money from you or whatever or whatever the the work is are like, we need that, you know,$100,000 food stamp program, Matt.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they're and they're gonna give you deference, they're gonna show you the nicest seat in the place, they're gonna buy you a really expensive glass of wine if they can afford it, and and somebody else not on the board.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who are they?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're not so yeah, the uh the the phrase I like better than privileges with rank is unconscious advantages.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, sometimes they're unconscious, sometimes they're conscious.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I this was created by a friend of mine named Tony Signorelli.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's a writer and a thinker and a former corporate consultant, super smart, super successful guy.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he and he talks about unconscious advantages, which I think takes a little bit of the stigma or the there's some connotations around the word privilege.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because you might say to me, Tom, well, you're a business owner, you're a middle, upper middle class guy, boy, are you privileged?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what do you mean, privileged?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up marginal, I worked my butt off.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I work every day.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is what a lot of entrepreneurs will say.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're a white guy, you're privileged, you're a middle, upper class white guy, you have whatever you want.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you drive a nice car, you go on vacation, you're privileged.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, privileged.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I don't come from wealth.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not privileged, you know.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Almost nobody thinks, Elon Musk, you're privileged, Elon.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I work for this.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I have billions of dollars.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I'm not privileged, you know.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Does he have unconscious advantage?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: You bet your booty, as do I, as do I.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's and it's easy, I think, to to look at others and and judge what we think is their un you know, unconscious, unconscious advantage.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, uh, I think because it's unconscious, and and like I said a few minutes ago, I I didn't realize, didn't know, still don't know that I fully understand what what mine are and and what's the responsibility I have in how I act and how I come across to to affect others' lives.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm I'm curious as we as we kind of tease this apart a little bit, if if you know someone who has a lot of rank, let's say somebody approaches them and says, Hey, I don't feel comfortable about this, this feels unsafe for it, you know.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you ever feel like they lose uh credibility or lose uh respect if they actually listen to someone lower in rank?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think the opposite is the case?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: If the the boss actually listens to the to the newbie, does that does that does he lose face in front of the team?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or what do you think?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it it depends what school that boss is going to.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: If that boss is going to the old school, absolutely.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um listening to a lower-ranked person lowers your power in the old school, of course, it does.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: It also if if you're encouraging me to be aware of my emotions and be respectful of emotions and sensitive to emotions or somebody's disposition, in the old school, that doesn't fly, that doesn't grow anybody's rank.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: But in the new school, however we define that, I think you know what I mean.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: In the new school, where there's younger people or more forward-thinking, or I would say scientifically based thinking leaders that know emotional intelligence is real, it's one of the most important things out there, and that, and if they have power intelligence, which is a phrase coined by one of my teachers, I have to mention Dr.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Julie Diamond, in case anyone's listening or uh wants to really read a great book.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Julie Diamond wrote a book called Power, a User's Guide.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Julie is is a huge, a huge um proponent of this, you know, the same, the same stuff.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Using your power with as much awareness as you can.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the in the new school, you grow your power by listening to lower rank, depending on how you listen.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you, you know, if you're the top ranked general superintendent with 80 people on a job, you can't listen to everybody all day long.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: But somebody really sharp that you know, maybe they're new, but they're really sharp and they have an insight, and you listen to that, and that makes a difference in the job.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's more profitable, it's safer.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I think in the new school, it's like the Navy SEALs.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: When the Navy SEALs are done with an operation, I'm told, they sit in a circle and they take their, well, first they take their stripes off at the door, and then they sit in a circle and they act as if there's no rank.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one reason I think the Navy SEALs have a pretty impressive culture, and and they're highly touted everywhere as an really incredible culture, getting incredible results, not all the time, but often partly because they debrief in a way where there's no rank, there's no retaliation.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone can speak honestly to anyone, and they're encouraged to do so.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the leaders um, who I would say are in the new school, know that they will grow their power and their rank and grow their strength and grow their capacity by listening to the to the younger people, to the newer people, to the.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you one more story that comes from my Catholic background that the Benedictine monks that have been around more than a thousand years, the Benedictines um had a rule that when they got together for their meetings, their community meetings, which they had regularly, uh, they would let the young monks speak first.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: The novice monks got the floor first, which I think is brilliant because if if the old season monk speaks and says, Well, we need to do this, or that's the way this is you know, the new monks are gonna be like, Well, I'm not gonna say anything that that season is.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing to be said, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can I say, Who am I?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that so they say, No, the new ones, we want to hear your thoughts first.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's like listening to the low rank.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Talk that that's an old school that was new school.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very old school, right?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it's but it's uh it's like some tried and true wisdom there.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Wisdom, exactly.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh you know, I was I was talking with a friend of mine who's uh he does some business coaching and he was talking about how um listening to those of of lower rank is important because you want to understand what their thinking process is.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just instead of just giving them the answer, asking them, you know, come up with three three solutions that you think might work, and then why do you think those might work and and what do you think might work the best and and and trying to what do you I think he even called the the holy grail of what is the thinking process?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you know, kind of back to this new school, instead of being a command, you know, down from the from the top, it's like, well, let's at least understand what they're coming up with so that I can understand where their thinking process is, and then I actually have more opportunity to influence the thinking process and hence their development and their growth and their contribution because I've allowed myself to be open and approachable versus just you're gonna do it my way and you're gonna like it, kind of attitude.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, and that's the world we're in.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: We we need the thinking of the young people and the best leaders ask the right questions.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I like what you said there.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're not only um encouraging some new ideas, but they're listening for how the new person thinks differently.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they're and they're they're open to a different process.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and boy, I think the world needs this right now.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need all kinds of new thinking on all kinds of new levels.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the wisest leaders know how to do that.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: That stuff takes time and energy, and I realize it's it's not always practical.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of construction people would say that's a bunch of hogwash, get it done.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: We I'm I'm not gonna ask this guy questions.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tell him what the heck to do, or you know, um, that's often the attitude in the construction world can be tough that way, and it's one reason it's one of the slowest to change.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a dinosaur, it's uh it's almost slower than the Catholic Church to change.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I understand.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, on one hand, you know, there are things that need to get done, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, you need to plant this out so we can put asphalt on it, right?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's got it's got to be compacted before we, you know, pour the cement, whatever the case may be.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um but I do think to your point, it's important to understand where people are at and and actually to be able to grow as an organization or grow as a as a team, um, you know, be being willing to to hear people find out where they're at, and then you can can lead them from there.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're you know, if you don't meet them where they're at, you can't really lead them from there.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can just kind of boss them around until they get sick of you and and leave and you start over.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a there is another aspect to the sort of as I'm thinking what's needed now and the sort of old school or the senior guy, maybe talking to the younger guy.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: The guy who's over 50 is a different animal than the guy who's under 25.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and this comes up a lot, and there's a lot of tension between the generations.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And uh in general, what I hear is that the senior generations, the baby boomer or close to the baby boomer world, have a lot of judgment and difficulty with the younger generations who are on their phone too much, don't want to work hard, don't want to get their hands dirty, um, want to know too much, want to too many attaboys, they want lots of praise, right?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: They want to know how their job contributes to the whole company's mission.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that these are some stereotypes, but they're they're also pretty true.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a rank thing in there.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, even though the 22-year-old doesn't know a third, a tenth of what the 55-year-old guy knows, or the or the 55-year-old woman knows.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and yet the young person, there's a lot of confidence in some of our young people where they will speak up and they will say what they mean, and they're so it's it's complex.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not there's there's some nuance to the sort of new, brand new person who's cautious and careful, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the young 20-year-olds are very bold and very strong, and they will leave, they will walk off the job and go do DoorDash like my son has done.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just a nuance there with the age thing and the generation thing and rank.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: It gets it gets uh, there's some complexities within it there.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not so simple.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I think one of the honestly, one of the most impactful teachings in your book that that I found was um, you know, you're talking about building trust.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, in fact, you say the inability to express empathy for others and ourselves is a significant detriment to our capacity to build trusting relationships.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And trusting relationships are required for optimal safety accountability.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really what we're getting at with this this part of the conversation is just that whether you're 22 or 62, or you're the boss, or you're the the you know, the very bottom of the we've got to be able to build trust, or we can't we can't do anything, right?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: We can't build a house, we can't build a road, we can't build an elevator, we can't we can't uh build a company or or really accomplish anything unless we can build some trust.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really what this is getting at is um my hope at least is that uh leaders can become more open, more willing.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: To hear and you know, listen to what's going on, find out where your people are at.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, you know, the younger people maybe they do need to ask some some questions or or be heard so that they can develop trust.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then together we can we can do what we need to do.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the work's got to get done.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, trust is key.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Super important.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's a Minnesotan, I'm from Minnesota, and there's a Minnesotan named David Horsehager, has made his whole living on the idea of trust and has built probably one of the most impressive bodies of work and teaching and writing on the concept of trust within organizations.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he's very successful, very, very solid, interesting guy.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And some I don't know if I quote him or not in my book, but I but I look to him as one of the one of the key teachers on something that's so seemingly so obvious, but often missing in some of our cultures, Matt.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if you know if you're working for a company that that uh likes to lay off people, right?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I used to be in corporate America, and by the the third round of layoffs, you know, I I happen to be on that list, but I'm just saying it's it's hard to to trust when no trust has been built.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: So let's um, you know, as we as we kind of wrap up the conversation, what would you say is uh maybe then the number one way you have found to to help build that trust?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty simple in a way, Matt.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's giving your word and keeping it.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when you can't keep it, I mean if if we could give our word and keep it 100% of the time, that's the best way to build trust.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is you and I are both not always gonna be 100% on our word.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're not we're imperfect people.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: We might accidentally double book and we don't get online together.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the best way is do what you say you're gonna do, and when you don't, when there's a breakdown, own the breakdown and say, Matt, I told you I'd be here at at one o'clock, I forgot all about it, I broke down.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Keep the excuse short, keep the story about what dog chewed up what homework papers super short, and and say, I I recommit, and then recommit and show up and be there for the person.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's I think that's one of the best ways to build trust.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and then you get all the other messy things about being human thrown in there that the certain people just bother us from the day we meet them.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: They trigger something in us.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'd say the the uh this one end of the trust pool is give your word and keep it, clean up your breakdowns when you have them, and the other deep, the deepest end of the trust pool, I would say, is to forgive everyone who's ever hurt you and to be completely clean, um, or to be is to clean your clean your uh filter out for the potential bad behavior of others or breakdowns of others, you know, that that if somebody says they're gonna show up and they don't, it's not personal.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know, if if I'm personally hurt because you miss an appointment with me, I have something to look at.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh and it's not about Matt all red missing one appointment because you you've made every one, it's about me.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that the deep end of the pool is is dealing with um our deeper, what some call our broken toes, that old injury, right?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's often what happens on a job site.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: They may not be aware, but somebody reminds them of somebody who hurt them.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can forgive that someone who hurt you, then the person who shows up the day looking like that person who hurt you and sounding like that person who hurt you has a lot less power.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's important, I think, for building trust and to for creating safety.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, really what I'm hearing is you know, like I say, give your word, keep your word, and when you don't keep your word, own it, apologize.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the other piece is like I say, deeper, but it's uh do do your work, right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you're triggered by so-and-so because they remind you of somebody who used to annoy you, then do the deeper work, look inside, do the forgiveness, do the do the processes you need to do to to get over that so that doesn't keep keep uh working up away on you.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh just awareness that that deep work is sometimes really difficult and sometimes impos seemingly impossible.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you use the word annoy you.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's a lot worse than annoying you for sure.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody was physically beaten, women were raped, men were raped, like that that level of stuff happens.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's part of the fabric of life, and um, it's part of part of what we uh somebody who just raises their voice at us, and we were yelled at a lot as a kid.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be a painful thing if we haven't dealt with that original pain.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Trauma is what it's called.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: We hear a lot of people talking about heal your trauma, deal with your trauma.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: I even hear the construction guys talking about want to heal my trauma.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what you want to what?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right, amen, brother.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: We've all got it, right?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the the like you say, it's the fabric of life.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: We all have stuff, we all have things that that uh have been traumatic, regardless.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's right.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're all on it together, Tom.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: This has been very enjoyable.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love talking with you, love your insights and appreciate you being here.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, likewise, Matt, you're a super kind man, and I really value what you're doing in the elevator world.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've had a little project together.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: I wish you ongoing success, and uh let's connect again soon.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tom.
• 50:05
  unknown: You're welcome.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the All Red Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
• 50:13
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• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Please like and subscribe.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, stay safe.