Latest / Spokes & Strategy: Marketing the Bicycle / EP 17: Why Bike Lanes Alone Don't Make a Community Bike Friendly with Ken McLeod
Transcript
- Ken McLeod: it's important to find values that are broadly shared, both amongst the bicycling community and people who aren't biking. a lot of people believe our roads should be safer. there's a lot of people who support slower speeds, safer streets. when we talk about street designs that improve things for bicyclists. I think it's really important to also mention how things improve for people walking, for people driving. that these aren't things that are win and lose, but there are a lot of win-win opportunities. Brandon Morphew: Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, Marketing the Bicycle with Brandon Morphew and Chris Melman of Miso Partners. Welcome to Spokes and Strategy, where the business of bikes meets the joy of riding. We we do spend a lot of time on Ken McLeod: Yeah. Brandon Morphew: this show talking about how to get more people onto bikes, how to get more people into bike shops, how to grow the cycling industry, and how to create more lifelong riders. but there's something even more fundamental underneath all of that. Do people actually have places where they feel comfortable riding a bike? Our guest our guest today has Ken McLeod: Okay. Okay. Brandon Morphew: spent more than a decade working on that question. Ken McLeod is the policy director of League for American Bicyclists. He's an attorney, a longtime bicycle advocate, and someone who works on both ends of the spectrum, from national policy and state rankings all the way down to local advocacy in his own community. And that local piece is something I'm especially interested in today because Ken told us that some of the most effective work he's seen has been surprisingly simple. Paint, flex posts, Community members showing up and letting people experience how a street could work differently. So today we're talking about what bicycle advocacy actually looks like. When you get beyond the slogans, what works, what gets complicated, and what we're arguing about right now, ultimately what it takes to create communities where more people get to experience the joy of riding. I'm your host, Brandon Morphew. Ken, thanks so much for joining us. there's about fourteen different directions that we could go and take this conversation today. But w before we s we talk about policy, bike lanes, state rankings, or anything else, we have to start with bikes. What does riding look like for you these days? Ken McLeod: Yeah, I mean riding for me looks like trips to the grocery store, trips to our our downtown market area. Most of my bike rides right now are probably three miles or less on my kind of commuter bike. 'cause I I've been marathon training, so my my recreation and my fitness is kind of focused on running right now. you know, I have five bikes, two mountain bikes, a gravel bike, a road bike, and a commuter bike. so I've I've had those peaks where I'm I'm training for the multi-day bikepacking trip. but for right now my focus for fitness has been on on marathon training, and all my bike rides tend to be short and simple. Brandon Morphew: I'm just thinking about the different hats you wear and when you're riding around on your commutes and and in the community, can you ever turn off that that policy director part of your brain? Or you are you kind of constantly looking at intersections and thinking, you know, why did they do that? They could have done this. Ken McLeod: it's one of the things I enjoy about biking around my community is, you know, I'm making that mental map of where things could be better or noticing something that the city's done and wondering how it could be improved. Or I I mean one of the greatest joys is on my route to a place and I go through a corridor or an intersection where I know we've done advocacy and and I can see how it's changed over time and just every time I go through that intersection or through that corridor and I'm like, we we made that happen and I get to experience now and it's it's just incredible. Brandon Morphew: Was there a point or a moment where you thought like, you know, some something needs to be done about this and and that someone is me, or or was this something that happened over over years? Ken McLeod: It it really happened when I was in law school. I I moved from Washington State to Virginia. Washington State didn't have a vehicle inspection program. Virginia did. my vehicle didn't pass inspection, so I started riding everywhere. and I was in Williamsburg, Virginia, going to William Mary Law School, and it was just like a mile going down Richmond Road to get to the grocery store and it was a it was a terrible road. were no bike lanes, there was a lot of traffic. And that made me start thinking about like how how do things get better for this? and then when I was graduating, I cold emailed the League of American Bicyclists asking them if I could work there under a public service fellowship that my law school had, which would give me a stipend. So I was a free worker offering myself to them, figured I'd I'd be there for a few months, pass the bar and get a real lawyer job. And instead it's 14 years later and I'm still So here. Brandon Morphew: Doing good work too. It's appreciated. so Ken Ken McLeod is the policy director for the League of American Bicyclists. he works on policies intended to improve bicycle safety, manages the bicycle friendly state program, works with people and organizations on state and local bicycle initiatives. He joined the league in 2012 after graduating from William and Mary Law School and is a licensed attorney in Virginia. But Ken isn't only looking to work from Washington. He's also been deeply involved in local advocacy in his home, Roanoke, Virginia, Virginia, including as a founding board member and former board chair of Petal Safe ROA. I think that combination national policy and actually trying to make something happen on the street where you live is where we want to spend our time today. So Ken, welcome to Spokes and Strategy. Ken McLeod: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Brandon Morphew: You're an attorney, and you somehow ended up spending fourte fourteen years in in in the bike advocacy, and really making America better for cycling. H how did that happen? Ken McLeod: So I mean I mean it really was just I I was biking in law school. I was, you know, passionate about biking. I was biking for transportation. I started looking into bike laws, and I I kind of couldn't find a compilation of state bike laws that kind of answered questions that I want answered. So I I emailed the League of American Bicyclists with this proposal to do this project looking at state bike laws that ultimately became something called bike law university, where we cover, I think it's 12 or 14 different legal topics with reviews of all 50 states and their laws for those topics. And that really got me started at the league. And then it's just been a process of seeing where that goes, seeing what other advocates want to work on, and kind of learning more about the advocacy community and how we can play a role as a national organization to help all the state and local partners. I think we have over 350 state and local advocacy members members, like organizations that are members of the league, and then probably another six hundred bicycle clubs that are members of the league. so really trying to work with them, help promote the advocacy efforts that they're working on, and just work as a community to make biking better. Brandon Morphew: What what is different about what you thought this role was when you started fourteen years ago versus you know what you've learned it actually is? Ken McLeod: I I mean when I started you know as I was coming from law school and I I definitely had some perspective if if we could just get the laws right, biking would be safer, things would be great. now, 14 years on, I probably focused less on the laws and a lot more on The bike lanes, the the bike infrastructure, whether it's protected, what the speed limit is, are drivers actually going the speed limit? Is the design of the road appropriate so that it encourages it encourages them to go the speed limit? So I'm I'm a lot more interested in kind of that that physical environment rather than the the legal environment when I first started. Brandon Morphew: Is that is that because it's easier to write the policy than it is actually to make the policy work? Is that that's sort of like what drives that or is there some other insight that you've taken away from it? Ken McLeod: I I mean, the the the issue with like only taking a legal approach to advocacy and kind of a rights-based approach is is that those rights have to be enforced by someone. And enforcement is both hard to get data about, so we don't really know a lot about how much is happening. And then it's very, very variable place to place. You know, perhaps in your city your rights could be enforced, but then you go out on that long ride in the adjoining county and their sheriff doesn't have the same conception of bicyclist rights as you do, even though the law is the same. So that bike lane, the bike infrastructure, the the shared use path, that's consistent. and unfortunately the way that laws are enforced is not. Brandon Morphew: When you think of like bicycle friendly communities, what does that mean to you? Ken McLeod: I mean I I think ideally it's a place where people feel comfortable and safe biking. so you know, people of all ages and abilities, parents with their children. Older adults in their retirement, people who want to bike from their doorway to a mountain, people who want to drive to a shared use path or greenway. All those people have those opportunities, all those people are safe when they take advantage of those opportunities. And there's just a really strong culture that supports people biking and kind of whether or not people bike, they know about biking. and they respect the people who are biking and are looking out for their safety. Brandon Morphew: for those two? Ken McLeod: I I mean different different bicyclists definitely have different needs and you know when I'm biking around town I have different infrastructure expectations than I do when I'm going on a you know sixty-five mile ride, which for me might involve the Blue Ridge Parkway where there's no bike lanes, it's a forty-five mile per hour to fifty five mile per hour speed limit. Like I have different expectations, I have different I guess needs in terms of what I'm looking for as a bicyclist. so I think there are differences for the different types of bicyclists. I think for for drivers interacting with bicyclists, I ideally they're treating everyone more or less the same. you know, giving people space, slowing down if they're uncertain about whether or not something is safe, waiting for that moment to pass a a bicyclist or a group of bicyclists, and just kind of being understanding that we're we're all people trying to get places and do things and we're all kind of deserving of safety. Brandon Morphew: I'm gonna go off script a little bit because there is a like a kind of a theme going. I've seen I think it's R Rick Fosper has written about this sort of gut milk campaign idea for cycling. And I'm just curious if Ken McLeod: Yeah. Brandon Morphew: you have any thoughts on kind of what what helps what what works from a sort of community point of view, thinking about drivers and cyclists, Ken McLeod: First. Brandon Morphew: active a you know, enthusiasts and and those folks that just ride the bike path and, you know, drive their bike to the to the parking lot. W what are some of the things what what might that look like? Ken McLeod: Yeah, I mean I think you know, it's important to try to find values that are are broadly shared, both amongst the bicycling community and people who aren't biking. So, you know, a a lot of people believe our our roads should be safer. there's a lot of people who support slower speeds, safer streets. when we talk about street designs that improve things for bicyclists. I think it's really important to also mention how things improve for people walking, for people driving. that these aren't things that are win and lose, but there are a lot of win-win opportunities. And so finding values like safety, like health, like supporting families, those are are broadly shared values and are are really furthered by things that improve bicycling as well. So kind of thinking about how we can use those values in our messaging has been a real key that we've focused on. Brandon Morphew: You talked a little bit in the intake about tactical urbanism projects. These are things like painting lines, you know, on the roads lanes, flex posts, and and the c community members that are that are actually out there doing this work. Is there one that that you could think of that you might want to share? An example that's that's been pretty effective? Ken McLeod: Yeah, absolutely. I mean It's my favorite because it's so near my house. It's it's like a mile away. we, my my local group, PedalSafe Roanoke, PedalSafe ROA. We got an ARP community challenge grant. It was $15,000 to do this project on a bike route in our city that we knew was going to see more bike traffic because they were replacing a bridge. So all the people biking who used to go over that bridge now had to take this parallel bike route. and it was just amazing. To see all the people come out from the neighborhood supporting this project, which significantly kind of narrowed lanes to make sure that it was a a slower street. We actually were able to close off one street to traffic, making it a one-way where it had previously been a two-way. And we had over a hundred people come out to paint the street with our artist who had designed the the beautiful painting. And since then it's been great to see like the community continue to embrace it. We we got these big planter pots from Amazon and now there are flowers planted in those pots on that street, which we closed to two-way traffic and it's still open to one-way traffic. We increased parking and we've seen people like do kind of community barbecues in that parking space. So it's I mean I get a Bike through there once or twice a week and every time it's it's just a joy to to see that change in the community. Brandon Morphew: Have you had any feedback from the community? Have has has it all been positive? Has have you had folks, you know, share their experience with this new new space? Ken McLeod: Yeah, I mean it's it's been overwhelmingly positive. I I think there has been some feedback in terms of You know, there's some some black walnut trees that that drop things into the artwork. So some of the artwork is looking faded as you know the the leaves and things have kind of worn away that paint. there's some folks who don't quite understand the difference between a a curb extension where it's not really meant to be a space where you're biking, and and a bike lane where, you know, they they see that there are bollards there and they're like, well there's that space, you should use it. The city has come back to that corridor and added a small roundabout. So that's something that not everyone in the United States is familiar with. So people have feelings about that. But I think it's been mostly positively received. So there's definitely still conversations about how things can be improved because everything can be improved always. But it it's been a very positive project. Brandon Morphew: Excellent. Excellent. what what do you think happens when people physically experience that change? You know, is is there something about the actual like process that you know, sort of gets the light bulb going versus like just, you know, going to a meeting and talking about it and do you see do you do you see a different type of reaction in a in a community that gets involved that way? Ken McLeod: I I think you do. I mean I don't have any hard data on it, but it it it feels like people are kind of more invested in it. Like they they feel like there's a greater sense of ownership. They they feel like change is more possible since they participated in it. And you know, it's not something that the city just comes through and does or doesn't do. It's something that they were actively able to participate in and influence. And like it wasn't really that complicated. It it was paint, it was bollards, and they got to do that in the course of a day to transform their street. I I think that just gives a a lot different feeling than You know, some of the the longer term projects, which of course bigger projects are gonna take more, and you can't have residents just putting down paint anywhere. it doesn't work like that for every project, but but certainly to have the opportunity for the community to participate and kind of take ownership of that street, I I think is transformative for for the people there. Brandon Morphew: Yeah, that's pretty neat. And and it feels having personally participated in advocacy around a a bike path in I'm in Massachusetts and I helped with with that for some years and watching the progress, I think it's a thirty, thirty-five year, you know, it's it's ba it was around before I Ken McLeod: Yeah. Brandon Morphew: got involved and it's it's still not done. It's it's much closer and it it a lot of it's done, but I I know it takes some time. I I guess I I like this because it is it feels very manageable. What what kind of you know, if you if if there's people listening, whether they're in the industry or they're just interested in bikes, what kind of advice would you give to them as they're thinking about like how it would be great if my, you know, downtown Main Street or that one, you know, we regularly see they they have, you know, more than enough room on the side, you know, and there's no lines on the road and people are you know, driving like it's a highway and it's really meant to be twenty five miles an hour. What kind of advice or or thoughts would you you give to someone who's thinking, you know, how do we even get this going? You know, there's city meetings and this feels this feels like you know, government's not my jam. How how what would you say to someone who's in that that place? Ken McLeod: Yeah, I I mean I think there's a lot of ways to approach it. I'll I'll walk through a couple. I I I would definitely promote the AERP Community Grant Program or Community Challenge Grant Program. It's what my local organization use for our our project. It provides up to $15,000. Cities really like it when you can get outside money. And so if you're worried about how long a project might take to get done, if you can say we're gonna get you some money, that can really spur the city to do a project so Finding a grant or doing fundraising at the local level to give yourself enough money to do a project project that involves some paint and some posts can be a really good way to kind of get things going quickly. Another way that my local organization has worked with a bike shop. Every year the bike shop puts on a ride on our greenway system, and my local advocacy organization participates to provide ride marshals and kind of other folks throughout the route. and in the last couple years we have worked with the city to remove parking for the day of that ride so that we can do a temporary two way cycle track from the bike shop to the greenway system, which we would love to see permanent. and maybe someday it will be permanent, but we're at least able to do it for that one day when we have a bike ride and we know that a lot of people are gonna get to experience that. And hopefully that's building that support for that facility as we go forward, which we we know is going to be a longer term process. So just Finding some way to do it once a year is a great way to make the change now. And the last thing I'll make a plug for, which maybe doesn't work for folks who aren't kind of interested in the city government aspect, is check out your city's paving schedule. many cities have a paving schedule that they publish and you can see a map of the streets that they plan to pave. And if it's one of those streets where you think that there should be bike lanes because the road is too wide and it doesn't match the speed limit that is posted, that's the cheapest time you can get bike lanes on that road is when it's repaved. So that that might be an easy win for you and for the city because it's gonna save them money in the long run. if they haven't coordinated their bike facilities and their repayming schedule already. Brandon Morphew: That that is great advice. Ken McLeod: Well that is really bad. Brandon Morphew: thinking about Ken McLeod: things of Brandon Morphew: Let's see the Ken McLeod: Yeah. Brandon Morphew: I'd say the current language that the league is using when it when Ken McLeod: Like you would typically do. Brandon Morphew: it's talking about what's happening f federally. So there's this Ken McLeod: What around. Brandon Morphew: I'll quote here, war on bike lanes. and without really making this partisan, what is actually happening? Ken McLeod: And if without a remaining card, what would it happen? I mean there there's been a a series of actions by this administration that it has made it clear that they don't support federal funding for bike lanes. they have removed bike lanes from something called proven safety countermeasures, which is a federal highway administration program that promotes proven safety countermeasures that have gone through a rigorous scientific process to be proven. They also removed every proven safety countermeasure related to speed management. So it's it's not necessarily just a war on bike lanes, but there is an aspect of it that is specific to. Bike lanes. And you know, we believe that's not the right approach. We we believe bike lanes do make biking safer, and the statistics that they have removed from the Proven Safety Countermeasure website show that improvement in safety. So we just want to keep advocating for bike lanes and Work with Congress to make sure that support for bike lanes doesn't disappear just because of the actions of this administration. And you know, we we know that there is support throughout the country and on both sides of the aisle for bike lanes and bike infrastructure. every state gets federal funding for biking and walking, and every state gets more requests for that funding than they can fund. so so we know it's a a bipartisan issue to support safer biking. and we just want to work with Congress and and the administration if they were interested in it to make biking safer. Brandon Morphew: so put yourself in the shoes of a of a a bike shop owner or someone who's riding and interested in this and and you know they're they're not in Washington D C, they're they're a thousand miles away somewhere else in the country. what could actually change because of these federal decisions? Ken McLeod: So the the biggest thing that the program government does is provide funding for transportation, at least related to bike lanes. it's it's Less than half of the funding for transportation that we have in this country, there's a lot of state funding, there's a lot of local funding, but it has a it has an impact on what's built. And a lot of trail systems rely on federal funding, you know, greenway systems, things that are are more expensive tend to be the types of projects that get federal funding. So in a in a worst case scenario, potentially all of that funding would go away. and that can have a a big impact on a trail system that has been built out for decades with successive federal grants, and then no longer has that funding source that it it has kind of relied upon for its build out over that period of time. we've had federal funding for biking walking since 1991. so there are a lot of greenway systems and trail systems that have been built out that way with kind of annual grants that go to them from the federal. federal government. And that's the type of thing that would dry up if we saw Congress kind of go along with the the letter that the administration sent to them that said we don't want bike infrastructure funded. Brandon Morphew: How much this sits locally and you know, like a a mayor or a city council, transportation department, a group of ad advocates, how much can they move forward even you know, knowing that this is potential or you know where it is right now be less supportive? Ken McLeod: I mean local governments can do a lot, local advocates can do a lot, local bike shops can do a lot. you know, certainly things like repaving when you're striving bike lanes, that typically doesn't involve federal funding. So there's definitely opportunities there. even with federal funding, there are probably opportunities to shape exactly what is funded. and there are also state programs that you might be able to take advantage of. Depending on your state. It's a state-by-state issue. How much local governments can raise taxes to fundraise for things like trails? So that could be a barrier in some places if you don't have the opportunity to adopt a funding structure at the local level that makes it harder to locally fund projects. But Typically there there's a lot that local advocacy can do with local dollars or state dollars, which which are a majority of our transportation dollars, and and most of those dollars come from property taxes rather than gas taxes at the local level. So the kind of idea that bicyclists don't pay for infrastructure is less true at the local level, although it's also not true at the federal level. Brandon Morphew: You w I'm I'm a big fan of data and evidence. I is there anything that's that you're missing as when you look at the the league and I we Ken McLeod: I think I'm I'm a big fan of yeah and is is there anything that you're in the thing because maybe you look at the other thing immediately. Brandon Morphew: know that participation is significant, you know, when it comes to cycling, you know, people like you know, thirty-five million or so have ridden their bike in the last Ken McLeod: So do you know? Brandon Morphew: six months. Like there's a it's a significant amount of people Ken McLeod: They can be a lot of people. Brandon Morphew: even beyond that, people that just have bikes and let it use it occasionally. Is there anything from Ken McLeod: Yeah, everything Brandon Morphew: A data point of view that you're missing. Ken McLeod: comes up yeah for the There are so many things. You know, I I would love more data on bike lanes. it's hard to get good data from cities, it's even harder to get it on a statewide basis, and and we have no national kind of compilation of of bike lane miles from a government agency. So I I'd love more data on bike lanes. I'd love more data on e-bikes. There there's no Government studies about e-bike safety that kind of break down by class one, class two, class three. it's also really hard to tell if e-bike studies are just about e-bikes or if they're also about higher speed e-motos that don't fit the e-bike definitions. Those get grouped together a lot in studies. and then you know, you you talked about we know a lot of people are biking. But when we talk about vehicle safety, they'll they'll say something like fatalities or injuries per vehicle miles traveled. For biking, we don't have bicycle miles traveled. So, you know, we we can say fatalities or injuries are up or down, but we don't have that denominator to know if biking miles traveled is also up or down, which would be really important to know if we wanted to have that context of. Is this number going up because more people are biking more often, or is this number going up despite people biking less often? Brandon Morphew: Where where would you get that data? So let's say these three things that you mentioned, Ken McLeod: So that's the creative. Brandon Morphew: you know, bike lanes, e bikes, and then the sort of miles injuries, w where would you get that data? Ken McLeod: Mm-hmm. Brandon Morphew: Where could where could you in an ideal scenario get that data? Ken McLeod: Yeah, I mean for infrastructure, there's there's kind of two promising places where that data could come from. there there's things like OpenStreets Map that has kind of like an open source specification for people to enter data. And so if more data goes through there and it's of high quality, that could eventually give us infrastructure data. the Bureau of Transportation Statistics has also worked on something called the general active transportation infrastructure specification that Would create a specification for government agencies to report both biking and walking infrastructure data. that I think was published this year or last year, so it's it's very new. I'm not aware of data that's been submitted that way, but but those are two promising infrastructure sources for data. something like bicycle miles traveled, we would need to Create a network of counters and then do some studies to figure out what the appropriate math is for extrapolating from however many counters would be deemed appropriate by math to have an estimate that we feel comfortable with. Brandon Morphew: cycling. You men you Ken McLeod: vehicular cycling. subject. what is it? Brandon Morphew: what is vehicular cycling? Ken McLeod: Vehicular cycling can can be talked about a few ways. it it can be kind of the the idea that bicyclists are safer when they behave like motor vehicle drivers and their interactions with motor vehicle drivers are as if you were operating a motor vehicle rather than a bicycle. vehicular cycling can also mean people not supporting bike infrastructure. because the Road as it's designed for drivers is also good for you as a bicyclist operating your bicycle as a vehicle. so I I think there there are aspects of vehicular cycling that are just good practices when you are biking on roads with no bike infrastructure. There there are a lot of good things that kind of come along with the vehicular cycling mindset. Being predictable, being aware of your surroundings, taking that lane when it's appropriate. appropriate discouraging vehicles to pass you when it's not safe for for them to do so, for either themselves or for you. And then there are aspects that are really not too helpful for growing the community of bicycling, particularly around the lack of support for bicycle infrastructure. Yeah, I I'm I mean I think you know the people who get involved in bicycle advocacy are often people who bike a lot. and so many of those people are are the people who are out biking in, you know, maybe rural areas without bike lanes or on Higher speed roads that maybe have a shoulder but don't have bike lane. and and you you kind of need some of those behavior cycling skills in some of those situations. and and those people are very invested in bike lane, bicycling, are are great bicyclists, but maybe aren't as as concerned with growing bicycling, maybe Don't do as good of a job thinking of what might get the person who only bikes on the greenway to take that half mile or mile journey from the greenway to a shop, and kind of transfer from being a a recreational cyclist to a more utilitarian cyclist. so I I I think it's It it has traditionally been something that bike advocacy has been largely populated by people who are are very good bicyclists, bicycling a a lot of miles. but I think there's been a a shift to think about all the different types of bicyclists and and their experiences and not just serving the people who are biking in very challenging situations where you kind of have to behave like a vehicle sometimes, but also thinking of how we can, you know, reach families, reach the people who are on the greenway, and kind of grow as a community to serve all the different types of people who bike. Brandon Morphew: right? We've got different different folks that are excited about it. You know, it's making people money. There's l other folks that are, you know, there's clearly some issues with safety and and people that are, you know, riding things that are motorcycles, dirt bikes on the road. Ken McLeod: bikes. You know, I I also always wonder about people on scooters, people on the the one-wheel devices, maybe even electric skateboards. Like there there's a lot of people who you might find next to you or in front of you or in back of you in a bike lane these days, and and you wouldn't have found those people or those devices in the same space, you know, ten years ago. I I think that the biggest thing for for us at at the league is you know just concern with this you know explosion of device types and all of their varying speeds and kind of a a lack of shared culture amongst the user users and and a lack of kind of shared education in our schools or for drivers related to biking or interacting with people on these devices is that well there's potential for backlash and there's potential for restriction and there's potential potential when people restrict these devices they aren't just targeting the fifty mile per hour 4,000 watt e-motos that are sold through Amazon. they're also getting that 20 mile per hour class one e-bike that a mother is using to get their kid to school. and so I I think the the biggest worry for for me is that we see backlash that isn't actually calibrated towards the the most dangerous types of devices and kind of falls harshly on these kind of slower class one e-bikes that behave very close to a human-powered bicycle but just make things a little bit easier on hills or if you're transporting cargo or or whatnot. So I I think keeping those class one e-bikes and those lower speed e-bikes accessible and kind of Not gated by license registration and insurance is kind of the main thing I hope we fend off in advocacy. And you know, I hope we don't see more states go the way of New Jersey where they've they've done licensing and registration for class one and class two e-bikes, and they have insurance for some e-motos. There's a lot of confusing statements out there about whether or not insurance is required for other e-bikes. and there's just a a lot of confusion from the restrictions that they've put in place, and a a lot of it seems kind of untenable, like asking people visiting the Jersey Shore from other states with their e-bikes to go by the DMV and register them before riding their bikes. It it just doesn't seem likely to work. Brandon Morphew: Where should we draw the line? So just something that has pedals, is it speed, weight, power, behavior? Ken McLeod: Wh where should we draw the line going? Just something that has pedals, is it speed, weight, positive? I mean I think speed is is the the biggest kind of thing that impacts safety the most. you know speed is is gonna impact whether things can kind of operate similarly or not. power is associated with that, but not always. so like I I think it's interesting the way Massachusetts is proposing just a a speed-based tier system that's kind of inclusive of all devices, whether you're a bicycle-shaped object or whether you're a tricycle or whether you're a one-wheel or a stand-up scooter, the the kind of defining thing that they decided upon was speed and they've just kind of created tiers of speeds and So into the future, ideally with that concept is if somebody comes up with a new device type, we we look how fast it goes rather than what it looks like to decide how we're gonna regulate it or restrict it or allow it. And you know, I I'd hope at least at at at a baseline that the the 20 mile per hour e-bikes kind of are treated like bikes, continue to be treated like bikes. and And in the three-class system that's been adopted by most states, there's always been that flexibility to treat the different classes differently. That's why you have different classes. And those are ultimately kind of state and local decisions that depend on the context of different communities. Brandon Morphew: So a lot of a lot of folks that are paying attention Ken McLeod: So a lot about Brandon Morphew: to the the podcast are own owners of bike shops or they're working at bike shops, involved in the industry, they they definitely care deeply about this a advocacy. They they're they're also you know, they gotta meet payroll, they gotta fix bikes, they've gotta manage inventory, keep the doors open. What what role do you think the local bike shop can realistically play? Ken McLeod: I I mean it bike shops can be great partners in advocacy. I I think ideally their role is kind of helping create the culture that supports biking. you know, they're gonna get bicyclists of all types probably into their shop, and being very welcoming to those folks, whether It's somebody with a Walmart bike who wants a flat tire replaced, or whether it's somebody on a very high-end bike that wants an oversized pulley wheel installed. You know, everyone should be welcomed into the biking community, and they're kind of the point of contact that a lot of people will experience with the biking community. So being super welcoming is important. Having rides where people can ride together and build Community that way, kind of being a hub for activity in the bicycling community is important. We have our bike-friendly business program that a lot of bike shops participate in, and it kind of goes beyond those things to look at kind of what type of bike parking are you providing? What are the bike routes to your shop or from your shop? Are you in a bikeable area? We've had bike shops who have decided to move to a more bikeable area after. Going through our bicycle-friendly business program. We've had bike shops advocate for new bike infrastructure as they've gone through and thinking about how do we level up from a bronze bicycle friendly business to a platinum. So I think that's a good place for bike shops to look if they want to like really think about how they're improving the community and serving their customers and staff in creating a great biking environment. Brandon Morphew: Is there anything you've seen like different communities do that has clearly changed the the cycling culture for local shops, around local shops? Ken McLeod: I I mean I I think it's not new anymore, but like things like Bike to Work Day are a great place where shops have been really involved in many communities and it's part of getting shops out of the shop and and into the community and doing those commuter stations to support people who are biking to work. for some shops that might be thinking of different clientele if if they've serviced a more recreational cycling clientele that that bike to work day could be a good way to think more about how you're serving people who are using bikes for transportation. you know there are definitely a lot of recreational bike shop rides. So it's also good to see when bike shops are doing kind of slower bike rides, more beginner bike rides that are are less focused on a paceline and more focused on kind of the fun of things. So so those I think are really promising. I'm sure some bike shops are very involved in things like bike buses where you're kind of doing critical mass but with kids and going to school. And maybe a less edgy vibe. So I I think just like thinking of the different types of bicyclists in your community and how your shop can serve those people by providing rides, by providing, you know, maybe repair services at community events, getting out into the community, meeting people where they are are are just really great things for bike shops to do. Brandon Morphew: Now you've spent a big chunk of your professional life thinking about all the ways bicycles can be different. Cycling can be difficult. you know, there's lots of things that have been improved, but you've got clearly crashes, infrastructure issues, laws, public funding, fights, public meetings that go on till late at night and often put these things at the end of the agenda so they you know, lots of people don't show up or they leave. How do you keep that from stealing your joy of riding? Ken McLeod: for me, just writing continues to be a joy. So you know, if if I'm feeling a little bit bummed about how things are going, getting outside and feeling, you know, the the wind in your face and having a a great climb or a great descent or getting on a a bike path and and seeing that that family who is out for a ride and enjoying it so much. there there's just so much joy that that people have while riding. so getting out and riding and and seeing that is is always something that kind of reinvigorates me and you know tells me yes, this is a great thing to do. Bicyclists deserve representation and advocates and that there's always something to advocate for, because we we do have, frankly, alarming fatality figures in the United States and you know, while there's the part of me as a bike advocate that says bicyclists have it the worst, Pedestrians, drivers, passengers, e everyone on the United States and on roads in the United States is dying at too high of rates. You know, we're double the rate of Canada. We're like six times the rate per capita of the UK. you know, we we just have very dangerous streets and and it's awful if we just decide that that's something that we can accept. Brandon Morphew: Is there a Ken McLeod: create? I I remember I got to visit Davis, California, which is kind of a longtime leader in bicycling in the United States. It's you know, since we've had census data on The percentage of people who bike to work in a community. Davis has kind of always been that top city. And that was one of the first places where I went and I visited and I got on a bike. And I just rode around bike lanes and I felt like I could get lost on them. Like there were intersections of bike lanes, there were intersections of protected bike lanes. And that that wasn't something I had really experienced in a US city before. Just kind of end at some point. And and and I know they do in places in Davis as well, but you know, that that was the the first place where I was out biking in a a city in the United States, and I'm like, this just keeps going. And then what if I went that way? And what if I went that way? And things connected more or less most of the time. Brandon Morphew: So if we succeed at this, who gets to ride a bike who isn't riding one today? Ken McLeod: So if we succeed in this, who gets around by who I mean so many people. You know, I I think one of the maybe most depressing stats is just kind of the decline in youth ridership over time. And you know, we used to have over fifty percent of children biking and walking to school. Now it's like less than ten percent and we don't even collect data on it really anymore. so you know, I got to bike to school, I got I got to walk to school. in elementary school, middle school. and I I think it'd be great to see that come back. you know, I I don't want to just reminisce through stranger things. I I want kids to be able to go out in their community and and bike around and and be safe while doing so. and then also bike with their parents and bike with their grandparents. And you know, it's it's just a a shame if we if we lose the ability of families to to bike together throughout the course of their lives. Thank you. Ken, Brandon Morphew: community. we can all learn more about Ken's Ken McLeod: we we need all learn more. Brandon Morphew: work and the League of American Bicyclists at bike league dot org. notes. the league's bicycle friendly state program is currently preparing its next biannual ranking so get your state ready. thanks for listening to Spokes and Strategy where the business of bikes meets the joy of riding. and if you've enjoyed this conversation, share it with a a bike shop owner, share it with a friend, a rider, person in your life that's working To make their community a little better Ken McLeod: Yeah. Brandon Morphew: for bikes. Thank you so much. Ken McLeod: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Brandon Morphew: It was great to have you. Thank you. Ken McLeod: Yeah, it's a good conversation.