Latest / Ridiculous History / Weird Courtship Rituals, Part Two

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Weird Courtship Rituals, Part Two · Ridiculous History

0:00
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
0:27
Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
0:30
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. This is part two of
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Speaker 1: a special two part series on weird courtship rituals throughout
0:40
Speaker 1: you know, human history. We're not getting tall of them,
0:43
Speaker 1: but we found some weird ones. That's the one and
0:45
Speaker 1: only Max Williams. Uh. They called me, Ben Noel. How
0:49
Speaker 1: are you doing, man, I'm good man. I'm feeling really
0:52
Speaker 1: good about this premeditated two partner beak behind the curtain.
0:55
Speaker 1: Usually we end up just kind of like making them
0:57
Speaker 1: two partners because we'd like to get an extra episode
1:00
Speaker 1: out of it, or it runs a little long. But
1:02
Speaker 1: you know, this is special, not only because of the
1:04
Speaker 1: premeditated nature of it, but because we are joined by
1:07
Speaker 1: our friends Diana and Eli once again to talk about
1:10
Speaker 1: more ridiculous, weird bizarro courtships from across the world. Thanks
1:15
Speaker 1: for coming, guys, Oh thanks for having us. Yeah now
1:19
Speaker 1: in our In our previous episode, we dove pretty deep
1:24
Speaker 1: into some oh some literally puritanical dating practices. We also
1:30
Speaker 1: traveled to Mauritania, where we looked at an ancient ongoing
1:35
Speaker 1: tremendously controversial pre marriage practice, a very very specific kind
1:43
Speaker 1: of terrible summer camp, and today we're going to two
1:48
Speaker 1: completely different locations in the world. I've got to ask, though,
1:52
Speaker 1: before we begin, did you guys find this episode that
1:57
Speaker 1: we recorded earlier? Did you find it staying with you
2:01
Speaker 1: over the weekend, like Diana, Were you trying to find
2:04
Speaker 1: like according tube to talk to Eli or anything like that.
2:08
Speaker 1: I know, I guess I wasn't. I wasn't trying to
2:11
Speaker 1: find a tube or anything. I did think it. I
2:17
Speaker 1: just scream across the house, you know what I mean. Yeah,
2:20
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have a too long enough to reach between
2:22
Speaker 1: the rooms. I have to say I did discuss bundling
2:28
Speaker 1: with my my girlfriend, not like that we should do
2:30
Speaker 1: it or anything, but yeah, it just it was a
2:32
Speaker 1: good conversation and she didn't know about it. And so
2:35
Speaker 1: I hope that that episode armed all you ridiculous stories
2:38
Speaker 1: out there with some good conversation for your significant others.
2:40
Speaker 1: Are you know to look smart at parties, because that's
2:42
Speaker 1: what we're here for. Yeah, well grab your thimbles, uh
2:47
Speaker 1: and to sheer off the bottoms of them. Yes, O.
2:51
Speaker 1: Strap in for part two? What are we talking about.
2:54
Speaker 1: It's funny because all fair we were talking with each
2:57
Speaker 1: other before we started rolling, and our conversation was, you
3:00
Speaker 1: know how some podcasts just seem to constantly allude to
3:03
Speaker 1: stuff they did or stuff they were talking about that's
3:06
Speaker 1: not on air. We decided we're not gonna be those
3:10
Speaker 1: folks today. At least if you want to hear in
3:13
Speaker 1: detail what we're talking about just a few minutes ago,
3:16
Speaker 1: then tune into Part one of Weird Courtship Rituals. This
3:21
Speaker 1: episode will still make sense, but it's it's you know,
3:23
Speaker 1: it's more rewarding if you get the whole like narrative
3:26
Speaker 1: arc that we weren't dot. Uh. So we'll pause for
3:32
Speaker 1: the magic of podcasting to uh give everybody a chance
3:36
Speaker 1: to get caught up. They're great, fantastic, So you listen
3:48
Speaker 1: to part one. We're ready for part two. Where do
3:53
Speaker 1: we go? First, let's say, um, I never get the
3:58
Speaker 1: chance to talk about this country on Eric. We go
4:00
Speaker 1: to bouton. Oh yeah, sure, let's please talk about Bhutan today.
4:05
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about a practice in Bhutan called bomina. Uh.
4:10
Speaker 1: It's also known more colloquially as night hunting, and this
4:16
Speaker 1: is something that's mostly fallen out of practice in Bhutan,
4:19
Speaker 1: but it still exists in rural areas. It's a very
4:21
Speaker 1: old tradition. Bomina literally means going towards a girl and
4:26
Speaker 1: that sounds sweet, right. Uh, Well, I don't know. It
4:29
Speaker 1: depends on how you're going towards the girl. But what
4:32
Speaker 1: energy are you bringing your coming at her? Weapon? Are
4:39
Speaker 1: you running? Are you strolling? I need more information. Well,
4:43
Speaker 1: it's worse than any of that, because the practice is
4:46
Speaker 1: that in theory, any man can after nightfall climbed the
4:50
Speaker 1: house of the walls of a girl, Jimmy opened her window,
4:54
Speaker 1: climbing into her room, slip into her bed, and sleep
4:59
Speaker 1: with her. That eight pretty exciting stuff. Sounds pretty horrific,
5:04
Speaker 1: and in truth, uh, this is a very old practice.
5:07
Speaker 1: Bhutan is a matriarchal society. For example, the daughters inherit
5:12
Speaker 1: property from their parents. But a lot of rural folks,
5:17
Speaker 1: especially and older folks like really believe in this tradition.
5:21
Speaker 1: A lot of people say their grandparents met this way
5:23
Speaker 1: and it's very sweet and they love it. Originally, it
5:26
Speaker 1: was meant to give the women actually more control because
5:29
Speaker 1: they decide when the boy shows up at the house
5:31
Speaker 1: whether or not he's allowed into the bed or not sure,
5:34
Speaker 1: but he could just knock on the door and I
5:36
Speaker 1: could be like, oh no, thank you and close the door.
5:38
Speaker 1: Why do you have to climb in at the dead
5:40
Speaker 1: of night and breaking inner into my house like a
5:42
Speaker 1: weird burglar? Yeah, well exactly, And this has been kind
5:45
Speaker 1: of the problem with it, especially recently. A woman uh
5:48
Speaker 1: sonam Wangdi from the Trunks of village married a man
5:51
Speaker 1: that she met through Bomina and she said, before marriage,
5:55
Speaker 1: I had lost count of the men who visited me.
5:57
Speaker 1: It's not about forcing. The tradition gives freedom to the
5:59
Speaker 1: women and to choose, but there are some men who
6:02
Speaker 1: forced themselves. It is for the exploitation of innocent women
6:07
Speaker 1: that the custom has lost its beauty. So surprised this
6:10
Speaker 1: didn't go very well forever he gave him an inch
6:13
Speaker 1: and they took a mile. Oh, I know. It just
6:15
Speaker 1: seems like it's asking for trouble. It sounds like something
6:17
Speaker 1: out of like a Chaucer story. I feel like there
6:20
Speaker 1: is that is a thing from the Canterbury Tales, like
6:22
Speaker 1: you know, and it was more like a cuckolding husband situation.
6:26
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. The line in chaucer, I think is I
6:30
Speaker 1: can't remember. It's the Miller's tale. It's one of the
6:32
Speaker 1: ones that I actually finished. But there's this seat in
6:35
Speaker 1: chaucer where there's this guy who just won't take no
6:39
Speaker 1: for an answer. He's trying to get this girl to
6:40
Speaker 1: lead out of the window and kiss kiss him, and
6:44
Speaker 1: it's really dark, and she does put something down the
6:47
Speaker 1: window and he does kiss it, but it's it's not
6:50
Speaker 1: her front end. Ah yes, ah, yes, that's right. Coming
6:54
Speaker 1: back to me now. So okay, you say the beauty
6:57
Speaker 1: has gone out of it. I'm sorry, I don't quite
7:00
Speaker 1: understand where what happens gorgeous, I mean, there has to
7:07
Speaker 1: be more to this, like I mean you say it
7:09
Speaker 1: gives it gives the the young woman more agency, but
7:12
Speaker 1: at the same time, like you know, dudes be aggressive. Traditionally,
7:19
Speaker 1: this is in like small towns, everybody kind of knows
7:21
Speaker 1: each other, and what really is happening is generally speaking,
7:25
Speaker 1: the boy and the girl would have met up beforehand
7:27
Speaker 1: at social events. They've seen each other, and typically this
7:30
Speaker 1: was agreed upon, but not always. Sometimes they just show up.
7:33
Speaker 1: In either case, the guy has to be super quiet
7:36
Speaker 1: because most of these families all sleep in the same room,
7:40
Speaker 1: and so if she decides to make any noise, Dad
7:43
Speaker 1: wakes up and they are just as protective as fathers anywhere,
7:46
Speaker 1: and they will literally throw this guy out the windows.
7:48
Speaker 1: Some have been chased away with scalding hot water. Um
7:52
Speaker 1: it really doesn't go well for anyone, right. It kind
7:55
Speaker 1: of reminds me of bundling a little bit, like where
7:58
Speaker 1: they took They got permission before hand. They sleep in
8:00
Speaker 1: the same bed, all the parents are around. You got
8:03
Speaker 1: to be real quiet. You still have to be quiet. Yeah,
8:06
Speaker 1: it's it's weird. They're carving out these umr carving out
8:10
Speaker 1: these areas of social plausible deniability, right like right, well,
8:16
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to jump ahead too far,
8:19
Speaker 1: but what's the birth control situation? It is bad, and
8:24
Speaker 1: that is one of the major problems here is unplanned
8:28
Speaker 1: pregnancies and not knowing who the fathers are. Again, in
8:32
Speaker 1: smaller villages they say, usually you know who the father
8:35
Speaker 1: is because you know, fifty people live here. We know
8:37
Speaker 1: who's with who, and we can figure it out pretty easily.
8:39
Speaker 1: And there are DNA tests, but especially even in some
8:43
Speaker 1: of the rural areas and in cities, they're saying it's
8:46
Speaker 1: expensive for these DNA paternity tests to come through. And
8:49
Speaker 1: often here's the kicker, here's what's really made it taking
8:53
Speaker 1: the beauty out of it, as they say, uh, is
8:56
Speaker 1: that in these small towns, even where everyone's pretty comfortable
9:00
Speaker 1: with the tradition, you have people coming in from out
9:03
Speaker 1: of town and taking advantage of this practice. And they're like,
9:06
Speaker 1: if the father ends up being someone who's an ext
9:09
Speaker 1: patriot or sometimes even a monk, they say that the
9:13
Speaker 1: courts can't do anything for paternity, and a woman's left
9:16
Speaker 1: on her own. Also, without knowing who the father is,
9:18
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to get the child registered on their senses.
9:22
Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes up to six or eight years, and
9:24
Speaker 1: the children can't even start schooling until they know who
9:27
Speaker 1: the father is. Wait, so no government services up to
9:31
Speaker 1: and including like the public school system. Yeah, they have
9:34
Speaker 1: to be registered through the census first, and that for
9:37
Speaker 1: that you need paternity. Uh are a very lengthy process
9:41
Speaker 1: without it. So wait, so when you say eight years
9:44
Speaker 1: to get registered with the census, that means you know,
9:48
Speaker 1: school until right at all? Right, I mean, I guess
9:52
Speaker 1: you know who needs kindergarten? You know, as a guy
9:56
Speaker 1: who had to repeat kindergarten. You don't learned that much.
10:01
Speaker 1: Life can go on without it. But I think I
10:05
Speaker 1: think it's socialization. But we know also that Bhutan has
10:10
Speaker 1: in terms of who they consider citizens in general, it
10:14
Speaker 1: gets kind of tricky, right. I believe there's a Nepalese
10:18
Speaker 1: descended population there that is still struggling for the same
10:22
Speaker 1: rights as people the kingdom considers native Bhutanese. Is that correct?
10:28
Speaker 1: So there was this huge movement about this online in
10:31
Speaker 1: social media, and around two thousand twelve it kind of
10:34
Speaker 1: came up and they organized like an NGO and nonprofit
10:39
Speaker 1: to start helping the women and start bringing attention to
10:41
Speaker 1: this practice. And there was a journalist who wrote her
10:45
Speaker 1: name is Robin Darbawa, and she had written into the
10:49
Speaker 1: email address that they provided, and the government answered them
10:53
Speaker 1: and said, the two girls who used this email have
10:56
Speaker 1: surrendered it to the government. They have been educated and
10:59
Speaker 1: now they are not going to talk about anything like this,
11:01
Speaker 1: which actually does not happen in Bhutan anymore. So I
11:06
Speaker 1: was getting a real cover up. And they say that's
11:07
Speaker 1: because the government just isn't really able to track it
11:10
Speaker 1: very well, so they don't really admit to it very much.
11:13
Speaker 1: Defenders of the practice say, well, urban people in Bhutan
11:18
Speaker 1: and people who don't live in Bhutan are criticizing rural
11:21
Speaker 1: areas and mothering them for this practice and saying they're
11:24
Speaker 1: less civilized and that they're blaming um unwanted pregnancies and
11:31
Speaker 1: venereal diseases on this practice, as if they don't have
11:34
Speaker 1: those problems in the cities. But they do, and they say,
11:37
Speaker 1: you know, getting rid of bow Mino would not magically
11:40
Speaker 1: erase all those problems because you all have them too.
11:43
Speaker 1: So that's been kind of the cultural argument between defenders
11:47
Speaker 1: and UH and people who think this is absolutely insane.
11:51
Speaker 1: You can just break into a woman's house at night,
12:01
Speaker 1: So this is something that's done with the consent and
12:04
Speaker 1: understanding of the parents, Like this is a conversation that happens.
12:08
Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily happen with the parents. Often it happens
12:11
Speaker 1: with the boy and girl beforehand, and you literally have
12:14
Speaker 1: to go in and sneak your way in. What they
12:16
Speaker 1: said is again, in smaller villages where they sort of
12:18
Speaker 1: know who's coming in and who isn't, the parents will
12:21
Speaker 1: sometimes lie awake knowing that the boy is broken in.
12:24
Speaker 1: If they think he's a good suitor for marriage. Because
12:27
Speaker 1: also if you are seen in the bed in the morning,
12:31
Speaker 1: the boys often sneak out, but if they're seen there
12:34
Speaker 1: when they wake up, they're pretty much married. Don't sleep
12:37
Speaker 1: pretty much locks it in. You can come over, but
12:42
Speaker 1: you can't stay. Uh. That's so. That's Uh. It seems
12:47
Speaker 1: like there's some again, some traditional constraints. But these this
12:51
Speaker 1: practice itself, in addition to being you know, a hot
12:55
Speaker 1: button issue and quite controversial, it seems like this practice
12:59
Speaker 1: is undergoing some cultural pressures because, uh, this sounds like
13:04
Speaker 1: it's still more often than not going to happen in
13:08
Speaker 1: rural areas instead of like the capital Thimpoo. Um. But
13:13
Speaker 1: there are tourists in Bhutan now, uh, not a ton,
13:17
Speaker 1: but I imagine they breathe through the more rural, you know,
13:21
Speaker 1: eastern areas of the country. How do they interact with this?
13:24
Speaker 1: Is this a Boutaneese only kind of operation? I think
13:27
Speaker 1: the Butaneese would love that, but it's not necessarily they
13:31
Speaker 1: say that. You know. Again, tourists from out of the
13:33
Speaker 1: country or even from other towns sometimes or other cities
13:37
Speaker 1: will take up the practice on their own and try
13:40
Speaker 1: to go sneak into a girl's room at night, and
13:43
Speaker 1: if they're aware of it, they take advantage of it.
13:46
Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that has led
13:48
Speaker 1: to the most problems with the whole with the whole culture,
13:51
Speaker 1: you know, other people taking the advantage of it. Again,
13:53
Speaker 1: unwanted pregnancies and not knowing who the father is because
13:56
Speaker 1: these guys slip in and out from out of town.
13:58
Speaker 1: Sometimes boys are even quoted, you know. They they talked
14:01
Speaker 1: to a man who was married through this practice. Uh.
14:04
Speaker 1: He and his wife both supported it because it worked
14:06
Speaker 1: out great for them. And in that same conversation he says, well,
14:10
Speaker 1: you know, and before I met my wife, of course,
14:12
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta have a little trial and error first.
14:14
Speaker 1: And sometimes my friends and I would just go over
14:16
Speaker 1: the next town to have some fun, so, you know,
14:19
Speaker 1: literally going somewhere where no one's going to know who
14:21
Speaker 1: they are, so they can sneak away again without any
14:23
Speaker 1: consequences of their own yikes. I guess it would be
14:26
Speaker 1: it would feel it would feel less problematic if there
14:30
Speaker 1: were more interviews or more statements from people saying, yes,
14:36
Speaker 1: some guy might show up at my house, but if
14:38
Speaker 1: I don't like him, I just I do tell him
14:39
Speaker 1: to go away, and he does go away. Did you
14:42
Speaker 1: find any of those, Um, yes, I mean some of
14:46
Speaker 1: the women. Especially again, usually it was women maybe forty
14:50
Speaker 1: year older or even older than that is, when it
14:53
Speaker 1: was more kind of standard and practice regularly who really
14:57
Speaker 1: defended and said, yeah, I kicked out guys I until
15:00
Speaker 1: I found the man I loved uh and had no
15:03
Speaker 1: trouble with it. But often those arguments were pretty dismissive
15:07
Speaker 1: of the women who definitely did have trouble with it
15:10
Speaker 1: of the bad experiences, you know, they kind of took
15:13
Speaker 1: their own and said, no, it's fine. It's really interesting.
15:16
Speaker 1: I do wonder though, sometimes if maybe, you know, since
15:19
Speaker 1: it is a practice that in this matriarchal society seems
15:24
Speaker 1: to you know, have its roots in empowerment, that maybe
15:29
Speaker 1: there are some women that didn't have the best experiences
15:32
Speaker 1: but in the interest of like being team players, maybe
15:34
Speaker 1: sugarcoated a little bit. I don't know, it's certainly a possibility. Yeah,
15:37
Speaker 1: I think that's definitely a possibility, because, um, you know,
15:41
Speaker 1: you get that impression, especially from like the NGOs that
15:43
Speaker 1: have been set up to sort of try and fight
15:45
Speaker 1: this practice that they're saying, you know, a lot of
15:47
Speaker 1: these women don't have a voice, and in speaking out
15:51
Speaker 1: against this um whether they don't have you know, the
15:55
Speaker 1: reach or the or whatever, they might need to sort
15:57
Speaker 1: of speak out against it, the opportunity, the platform, they
16:01
Speaker 1: sort of pick and choose, you know what you're hearing
16:03
Speaker 1: about it. So it's interesting that there's actually this is
16:07
Speaker 1: almost a weird flip side of the story, uh that
16:10
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell, or the tradition that I'm going
16:12
Speaker 1: to talk about. I'm I'm kind of glad you you lead,
16:14
Speaker 1: because this is sort of like two sides of this
16:16
Speaker 1: very strange coin, both striving for empowerment. I think one
16:21
Speaker 1: perhaps succeeding a little bit more. I don't want to
16:24
Speaker 1: spoil it quite well. Again, you know, this is one
16:28
Speaker 1: of those things where we have to realize that Bhutan
16:31
Speaker 1: is very much, for the majority of the world an
16:34
Speaker 1: inaccessible place. It's a the this is if you if
16:39
Speaker 1: you're not familiar with the country, it is mountainous, it
16:44
Speaker 1: is incredibly difficult to get to, partially historically due to geography,
16:50
Speaker 1: but nowadays also due to decisions of the government of
16:54
Speaker 1: the monarchy, which I believe that if you want to
16:58
Speaker 1: travel to Bata and as an out cider. There are
17:01
Speaker 1: pretty exorbitant fees you pay per day. Tourists also cannot
17:05
Speaker 1: exceed like a certain quota per year, but in their
17:09
Speaker 1: in their favor. UH. Bhutan has the distinction of being
17:12
Speaker 1: the only country to rate it's overall success not on
17:17
Speaker 1: gross domestic product or anything like that, but on gross
17:20
Speaker 1: national happiness, which is pretty difficult to quantify. It sounds
17:26
Speaker 1: like it could get confusing and also makes me wonder,
17:30
Speaker 1: you know, how does this process of night hunting fit
17:34
Speaker 1: into a modernizing country? Right? Because it sounds like this
17:39
Speaker 1: is very old. As we see the prevalence of things
17:42
Speaker 1: like cell phones I think would be the number one
17:46
Speaker 1: the number one next step right, as we see the
17:48
Speaker 1: proliferation of those in rural areas, how how is that
17:52
Speaker 1: going to affect things? Like what happens when people start uh?
17:56
Speaker 1: Because they get the sense I'm just I'm searching for
17:58
Speaker 1: an analogy. I get the sense when I hear people
18:02
Speaker 1: some of the guys talk about this, they're talking about it,
18:04
Speaker 1: like me and my buddies went out to the bar,
18:07
Speaker 1: We went out to the club, get a little night hunting,
18:11
Speaker 1: like like can't your phone ahead? At this point? I
18:15
Speaker 1: know and it would even happen in groups. Sometimes groups
18:18
Speaker 1: of guys will go out and one at a time
18:20
Speaker 1: break off and pick a house and pretty much just
18:22
Speaker 1: like that isn't that? Is that not kind of terrified though,
18:26
Speaker 1: Like That's what I'm trying to understand, Like, is this
18:30
Speaker 1: is there a demographic like does this stop when you
18:33
Speaker 1: get married if you're female identified or is it like
18:37
Speaker 1: the purge basically you have to lock your based on
18:42
Speaker 1: your genitalia? Do you have to lock yourself in at
18:45
Speaker 1: the dusk? Yeah? I don't know the answer that directly,
18:49
Speaker 1: but I would have My thoughts are that, you know,
18:53
Speaker 1: it probably stops when you're getting married, at least if
18:56
Speaker 1: you already have a man in your bed, you know,
18:58
Speaker 1: like get as far as the wind's a crowd. But
19:04
Speaker 1: at the same time, it feels like the practice does
19:06
Speaker 1: open because of you know, if you lean into this
19:08
Speaker 1: as like no, no, no, I'm just doing the thing,
19:10
Speaker 1: you know, like it really is just kind of like
19:12
Speaker 1: a carte blanche invitation to you know, stock people. Absolutely. Yeah,
19:19
Speaker 1: there was a girl who was in college in a
19:22
Speaker 1: rural area and she had no idea that she said
19:25
Speaker 1: she had heard of the practice but didn't really know
19:27
Speaker 1: much about it or think that it was still happening.
19:29
Speaker 1: And one night she's, you know, in her room with
19:31
Speaker 1: her roommate and some guy comes up and starts banging
19:34
Speaker 1: on the window and says, hey, let me in. No,
19:36
Speaker 1: it's okay. This is a normal thing, and you know,
19:39
Speaker 1: spent quite you know, it's also a normal thing for
19:44
Speaker 1: me to say no, sir, get out, like that's part
19:46
Speaker 1: of it, So get out like that. It's very based
19:50
Speaker 1: on coercion, right, I think that's what the big problems
19:52
Speaker 1: here too, is even if the guy gets in, then
19:54
Speaker 1: he's got to talk himself into the bed um if
19:59
Speaker 1: he doesn't force himself, you know. So even if there's
20:01
Speaker 1: not a physical forcing, there's still a lot of coercion
20:05
Speaker 1: going on. I'm wondering too, if there's like I'm not
20:08
Speaker 1: aware of this, but if there's a situation where someone
20:12
Speaker 1: travels from outside the country to maybe do some NGO
20:17
Speaker 1: work or something, and then they find themselves accidentally sucked
20:22
Speaker 1: into this practice, you know what I mean. I guess
20:25
Speaker 1: it depends on how common it is in the modern day.
20:29
Speaker 1: But now that you explain it this way, uh, yeah,
20:33
Speaker 1: I can see a lot of very angry dads and moms,
20:38
Speaker 1: you know. Uh so if you're caught, so it's vampire
20:42
Speaker 1: rules kind of right, Like okay, so right, if you're
20:49
Speaker 1: caught and if you're caught at dawn, that's you're married. Yeah,
20:53
Speaker 1: that doesn't always play, but that traditionally that's how it goes.
20:56
Speaker 1: So that's very strict in some villages. So do you
20:59
Speaker 1: feel like this is is them? Is this society normal?
21:03
Speaker 1: Would we normally consider them pretty conservative? Um? I didn't
21:07
Speaker 1: get that impression, but I think so. I think it
21:09
Speaker 1: it seems more traditional in their um, you know, values
21:13
Speaker 1: of marriage and family, um, things like that, pretty traditional.
21:17
Speaker 1: It seems odd to me that in a matriarchal society
21:20
Speaker 1: they would they would care so much about establishing paternity
21:24
Speaker 1: for for citizenship or or for I guess not for
21:27
Speaker 1: citizenship but for registering you and all that stuff. Like
21:30
Speaker 1: I wonder what that is. I don't know. I just
21:33
Speaker 1: was surprised by that. Yeah, because from what I'm understanding
21:38
Speaker 1: as a matriarchal society, what we're saying there is that
21:42
Speaker 1: women are traditionally the head of the family and also
21:45
Speaker 1: call the shots, right, So if there are questions of
21:49
Speaker 1: of a household import then it would typically be the
21:53
Speaker 1: mom or the oldest female relative. I guess that makes
21:57
Speaker 1: those decisions. So it may be it's a situation where
22:01
Speaker 1: you need to be especially like, uh, you know, if
22:05
Speaker 1: there are two kids who are like dating and trying
22:08
Speaker 1: night hunting, they know each other already, maybe it's the
22:10
Speaker 1: mom that they're really afraid of, right, could be, could be.
22:14
Speaker 1: I mean I've definitely heard that the dad's were the
22:16
Speaker 1: where they throw you out the window type. Yeah, but
22:19
Speaker 1: they're caught, but they're more than they're bouncer. You got
22:26
Speaker 1: to get past the manager. I mean, that's the way
22:31
Speaker 1: he came in. Might as well. This is super interesting,
22:35
Speaker 1: um in bizarre so so it's it's it's it's definitely
22:38
Speaker 1: fallen out of favor or it has this This is
22:42
Speaker 1: sort of the uh you know. The remaining argument is
22:45
Speaker 1: that uh, more rural and older people are saying, you know,
22:49
Speaker 1: while the modern world of dating and western dating has
22:53
Speaker 1: crept into Bhutan, especially in the cities, and that's you know,
22:56
Speaker 1: taking the love out of it like that like we
22:59
Speaker 1: used to have, you know, the good old days into yeah,
23:05
Speaker 1: the romantic practice of crawling into my bed in the
23:08
Speaker 1: middle of the night and it's become this, you know,
23:10
Speaker 1: kind of a mini cultural war because you've got again,
23:15
Speaker 1: urban folks saying this is outrageous if they've even heard
23:18
Speaker 1: of it. You're getting more and more young people who
23:20
Speaker 1: you know, haven't we'll grow up their whole lives and
23:22
Speaker 1: never even heard of this practice. And more and more
23:24
Speaker 1: the ones who have are saying, you know, this is
23:26
Speaker 1: so primitive and dangerous and really calling out using it
23:31
Speaker 1: as a way to call out rural areas and that
23:35
Speaker 1: they're less cultured and less civilizing backwards. Yeah, and so
23:38
Speaker 1: those areas are saying, no, you're you know, this is
23:41
Speaker 1: a perfectly safe practice. We love it. Yeah, there's some uh,
23:44
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of little weak links in the chain,
23:47
Speaker 1: but uh, but they defend it and you know, say
23:51
Speaker 1: that that's just an attack on their culture. Yeah. That's
23:53
Speaker 1: the thing that's tough about culture. And and you know,
23:56
Speaker 1: these types of rituals that we're talking about, especially the
23:58
Speaker 1: ones that are little, you know, more problematic. I mean,
24:03
Speaker 1: it's hard to criticize them, especially as an outsider, without
24:06
Speaker 1: coming off as just being some sort of like ignorant interloper,
24:13
Speaker 1: even though like you know, in terms of just like
24:15
Speaker 1: human rights and stuff. This does seem pretty pretty dangerous
24:18
Speaker 1: and problematic, especially when it's taken advantage of and kind
24:21
Speaker 1: of run rough shot over in terms of like the
24:25
Speaker 1: maybe original intent, you know, which is why I think,
24:29
Speaker 1: you know, we we uh hopefully those NGOs, those nonprofits
24:33
Speaker 1: that are growing in Bhutan are are you know, working
24:36
Speaker 1: to find that right balance. I know they signed the
24:39
Speaker 1: Sea Daw, the Convention of Elimination of All Forms of
24:42
Speaker 1: Discrimination against Women in nineteen eighty and that's sort of
24:46
Speaker 1: what started to bring up that this. Um they said
24:50
Speaker 1: bomina like customs were a form of gender discrimination. Um,
24:55
Speaker 1: so that's uh, that's that's had some work done locally, right.
25:00
Speaker 1: That was going to be one of my other questions.
25:02
Speaker 1: So this, the reverse of this doesn't happen. There are
25:06
Speaker 1: no young men who are sleeping and then someone bang
25:10
Speaker 1: bangs into their house and it's like, okay, this high
25:14
Speaker 1: I'm from earlier. I thought you were cute. Yeah, as
25:18
Speaker 1: far as I know, I've never heard of that happening. Okay,
25:23
Speaker 1: that's funny too for a matriarchal society that that's still
25:27
Speaker 1: you're dependent on the man's interest in you and his
25:32
Speaker 1: his interest, you know, his willingness to kind of come
25:35
Speaker 1: come get you, you know what I mean. I don't
25:37
Speaker 1: know I would have I would assume that it matrioical
25:40
Speaker 1: society will be like and you you're the come here. Well,
25:44
Speaker 1: I guess there's there's certainly different shades of that, right,
25:47
Speaker 1: I mean, like different extremes and flavors of what it
25:49
Speaker 1: matriarical society even means. Like I mean, I know a
25:52
Speaker 1: lot of very strong women in my life, you know,
25:55
Speaker 1: for example, like my mother, who is also very very
25:58
Speaker 1: old school, you know, like, oh, the man has to
26:01
Speaker 1: come for the woman, and when when young ladies should
26:03
Speaker 1: wear dresses like my kid kind of dresses like a
26:06
Speaker 1: weird punk rock goth and my mom finds this very
26:09
Speaker 1: off putting, and she's always trying to dress her up
26:11
Speaker 1: and these little outfits as opposed to what I would
26:14
Speaker 1: think would be looking at it as like, oh, it's
26:16
Speaker 1: so cool that she's like letting her freak flag fly
26:18
Speaker 1: and doing her thing and you know, owning her own image,
26:21
Speaker 1: in her own you know, kind of sensitive self. But
26:23
Speaker 1: that's not really how it goes. And so I think
26:25
Speaker 1: sometimes there are things that run counter to that because
26:28
Speaker 1: of generational stuff I think, and especially when you started
26:31
Speaker 1: getting into these uh you know, um cultures that are
26:35
Speaker 1: have their own set of rules and taboos. And also,
26:40
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. I was doing some doing just
26:44
Speaker 1: a little bit of digging. I see that women traditionally
26:49
Speaker 1: we're able to practice polyandry and have more than one husband,
26:54
Speaker 1: typically brothers in these rural areas. Um, they definitely. What
27:00
Speaker 1: I'm saying is it sounds like night hunting exists in
27:03
Speaker 1: a larger cultural context and the whole thing is starting
27:07
Speaker 1: to starting to change. And that's that's gonna be a
27:11
Speaker 1: lot to experience because I think I don't know if
27:14
Speaker 1: it's still the case, but I think up until fairly recently,
27:18
Speaker 1: people were required to where like legally required to wear
27:21
Speaker 1: traditional dress in the country as well. Interesting yea. So
27:25
Speaker 1: also I don't know how that affects. I mean, we're
27:28
Speaker 1: we're joking about it, but they're breaking into people's houses. Yeah, yeah,
27:33
Speaker 1: it's outrageous. And then the results are clear to you
27:35
Speaker 1: have women, um who have been interviewed who say, I
27:39
Speaker 1: won't even talk to men anymore. I've been abused many times.
27:42
Speaker 1: This one women had uh man came in, um you know,
27:47
Speaker 1: and they slept together. She got pregnant, they married, and
27:51
Speaker 1: then as soon as her first child was born, he disappeared.
27:55
Speaker 1: And then it happened to her again. A man came
27:58
Speaker 1: in Bomina style, wooed her one night, and then he
28:02
Speaker 1: disappeared as soon as they found out she was pregnant.
28:04
Speaker 1: And so she has two children and says, you know,
28:06
Speaker 1: she was abused more than that, even uh you know,
28:09
Speaker 1: at times when she wasn't even as you know it,
28:11
Speaker 1: didn't agree to it. And she says, I don't even
28:15
Speaker 1: talk to men anymore. And you're finding more and more
28:17
Speaker 1: women like that too, who have been abused through this practice,
28:20
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, it's really affected them and their
28:22
Speaker 1: whole lives, and it's affecting the culture of these towns
28:24
Speaker 1: too well. Eli, thanks for bringing this one to probably
28:28
Speaker 1: something that I wasn't aware of, and I think probably
28:31
Speaker 1: that's gonna be the case for a lot of folks.
28:33
Speaker 1: And like I said, interesting kind of kindred uh um
28:37
Speaker 1: tradition to to the one I'm going to talk about
28:39
Speaker 1: right after this word from our sponsor. Okay, and we're
28:48
Speaker 1: back with the proactive coming back from an ad Max.
28:51
Speaker 1: How do you like in this? Are you gonna make
28:52
Speaker 1: us do this from now on. Oh, please do this
28:56
Speaker 1: stop breaking. It's a tradition, Thank you, tradition. Remember that
29:00
Speaker 1: what is that filler on the roof? The traditions are
29:03
Speaker 1: It's a big They're a big deal. I mean we
29:04
Speaker 1: have plenty that, you know, folks from outside of America
29:07
Speaker 1: would probably think her odd, like, you know, flying American
29:11
Speaker 1: flag on for I don't know what, what's what's Um,
29:15
Speaker 1: that's not a thing. Thank you, thank you. Let's let's
29:20
Speaker 1: get to hurt. I'll hurt myself. Um. And today it
29:26
Speaker 1: seems to have kind of accidentally been about, you know,
29:29
Speaker 1: traditions that attempt to empower women. I would argue Eli
29:34
Speaker 1: that yours is maybe a little bit misguided and doesn't
29:38
Speaker 1: really succeed in doing that. And I'm not saying that
29:40
Speaker 1: I'm like coming in and being like Mr Woke or whatever,
29:43
Speaker 1: but this one that I'm bringing I kind of think
29:45
Speaker 1: does succeed. And Marie Claire would agree, So we have
29:49
Speaker 1: to do it a lot of No, it's true, but
29:52
Speaker 1: what we're talking about today is something in Cambodia. UM.
29:55
Speaker 1: I couldn't find a pronunciation. It's it's k R e
29:59
Speaker 1: U n G. I think I'm gonna call it Krang
30:01
Speaker 1: or Krong Krong Um, an ethnic minority group called the
30:04
Speaker 1: Krong living in Cambodia have for generations, I've been practicing
30:09
Speaker 1: this thing, uh called the love Hut. It's the little
30:14
Speaker 1: old place where we can get together. Um. It really is.
30:17
Speaker 1: What it is is an out a building built outside
30:20
Speaker 1: of the home where young women are able to entertain
30:24
Speaker 1: gentlemen call us on their own terms. There's also a
30:29
Speaker 1: really good article on Vice about this practice by Ayisha
30:32
Speaker 1: Down and Down Um actually goes to Cambodia where this
30:37
Speaker 1: is still being practiced today. UM. And essentially, what it
30:41
Speaker 1: does is it allows women, you know, adolescent women coming
30:45
Speaker 1: into you know, adulthood, um, to kind of tryout partners,
30:51
Speaker 1: you know, I mean date essentially, swing. I mean, it
30:56
Speaker 1: really is it's about the sex. That's that's that's certainly
31:00
Speaker 1: part of it. It's about it's about finding out whether
31:02
Speaker 1: you and a potential mate are sexually and intellectually compatible. Um. Essentially,
31:09
Speaker 1: you know, you have this little hut that's out behind
31:11
Speaker 1: the main house, and it's like the young woman's room.
31:15
Speaker 1: That's where she lives and she hangs out and she's
31:18
Speaker 1: able to kind of make it her own and um
31:21
Speaker 1: entertain boys, you know, quite quite a few before she
31:26
Speaker 1: ultimately decides which one to marry. I don't want to
31:30
Speaker 1: sound too old fashioned here, Noel, but what's the age
31:33
Speaker 1: range we're talking about. Yeah, so that's a good question, Mann.
31:36
Speaker 1: It is. It's a little it's a little odd. It's
31:39
Speaker 1: about thirteen to fifteen. So, like I said, literally at
31:44
Speaker 1: the beginning of of puberty. Um. And you know, as
31:47
Speaker 1: a father of a twelve year old girl, this, you know,
31:51
Speaker 1: certainly that age rain strikes me a little odd. But again,
31:55
Speaker 1: it does ultimately lead to this notion of sex as
32:03
Speaker 1: not being some sort of tool of a patriarchy to
32:07
Speaker 1: kind of you know, or like literally just a tool
32:09
Speaker 1: for procreation. It's all about procreation. It's not vilified. I
32:14
Speaker 1: think I'm sorry, thank you, Ben, I'm totally stammering to
32:17
Speaker 1: to try to get that out. That's exactly right. It's normalized. Um.
32:21
Speaker 1: The idea of sex um, the idea of partnership being
32:26
Speaker 1: something that requires like compatibility in terms of like people's
32:30
Speaker 1: ability to even have conversations. Um. And then Marie Claire
32:35
Speaker 1: piece that I mentioned, Fiona McGregor actually goes and visits
32:39
Speaker 1: the Krung tribe UH and hangs out with several young
32:43
Speaker 1: women to talk about their their sex life and what
32:46
Speaker 1: this hut is all about. And the quotes that you
32:50
Speaker 1: hear from these women are just so self possessed, like
32:54
Speaker 1: in terms of like they just own it, they own themselves,
32:57
Speaker 1: and they don't really think of it as like unusual
32:59
Speaker 1: at all because it's something that they that's been passed
33:01
Speaker 1: down to them for generations. And Uh, it's just like
33:04
Speaker 1: what you do. The father when the young woman begins
33:07
Speaker 1: to reach puberty, builds this hut out back and then
33:11
Speaker 1: she moves out there. So it's almost like it's giving
33:14
Speaker 1: agency not only over like independence in terms of like
33:17
Speaker 1: living outside of the home, but it really puts, you know,
33:20
Speaker 1: the impetus of of all of these things directly on
33:23
Speaker 1: the woman. And consequently, like there's like no rape in uh,
33:28
Speaker 1: in this culture, in the crumb culture at all, like
33:31
Speaker 1: like practically zero sexual violence, incredibly rare. Rape is apparently
33:36
Speaker 1: non existent according to the Marie Clere story. UM. And
33:39
Speaker 1: speaking to one of the elders, I suppose are one
33:43
Speaker 1: of the parents of one of the women who Theona
33:45
Speaker 1: McGregor interviews, UM, they say, we don't worry about female purity.
33:50
Speaker 1: Who knows what a girl does when she goes to
33:52
Speaker 1: another village anyway. I mean I love it. We're just
33:58
Speaker 1: so used to in in the United States, which we
34:00
Speaker 1: consider ourselves to be so like you know, um, I
34:04
Speaker 1: guess forward thinking and like you know, progressive in terms
34:08
Speaker 1: of so many things. Uh, still so much weird puritanical
34:13
Speaker 1: kind of like attitude towards sex. Here, it's sort of
34:15
Speaker 1: either like the extreme kind of like flagrant you know,
34:20
Speaker 1: just like over sex kind of attitude, like in terms
34:23
Speaker 1: of like what we see and and TV and film
34:25
Speaker 1: and advertisement stuff. And then you have like this extreme
34:28
Speaker 1: polar opposite, which is like a very kind of devout
34:32
Speaker 1: notion of like women need to get married and like
34:35
Speaker 1: get a husband and you know, be a housewife and
34:38
Speaker 1: all that. I think there's still some of that attitude
34:40
Speaker 1: has certainly changed and progressed over the years. But I
34:43
Speaker 1: just think it's so interesting that these folks who are
34:45
Speaker 1: literally living you know, in nature. I mean they really
34:48
Speaker 1: are living in like their actual huts uh that they
34:51
Speaker 1: live in are made of bamboo and they have to
34:54
Speaker 1: rebuild them like every year or so, because like you know,
34:57
Speaker 1: the weather can get insane there. So it really is
34:59
Speaker 1: like the a living directly, you know, with nature, and
35:03
Speaker 1: then they build these, uh, these other huts out back.
35:05
Speaker 1: So I don't know, you guys, I'd love to hear
35:07
Speaker 1: your thoughts, um, Diana, especially like how does I mean,
35:11
Speaker 1: you know, you being like a woman and all, how
35:13
Speaker 1: does this strike you? I mean, I think it's really
35:15
Speaker 1: fascinating and it's such an interesting, you know, thing to
35:17
Speaker 1: read about. Especially we'll get to the kind of status
35:20
Speaker 1: of it and you know, the future of it now,
35:22
Speaker 1: but um, it is still kind of a thing. Yeah,
35:25
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. It was funny that you
35:27
Speaker 1: said puritanical, because you know, I did all those puritan
35:31
Speaker 1: courtship things, and part of bundling was that you expected
35:36
Speaker 1: to have some sexual contact, you just weren't meant to
35:39
Speaker 1: get pregnant. And then and then the idea came around
35:42
Speaker 1: that women were very pure and a sexual and didn't
35:45
Speaker 1: have any sexual desire at all, Like that was the
35:49
Speaker 1: the ideal woman. And that's when bundling kind of stopped happening. Um.
35:54
Speaker 1: So it's just interesting to me that they're like, no,
35:56
Speaker 1: women like sex. They like it and it's a part
35:59
Speaker 1: of life and it's a part of marriage, and of
36:00
Speaker 1: course you should of course you should try and some
36:02
Speaker 1: pants and see what fits, you know what I mean,
36:04
Speaker 1: like why not? So I just think that's really a
36:08
Speaker 1: very enlightened way of thinking about I also like the
36:11
Speaker 1: way that the the situation has been described. Whenever you
36:15
Speaker 1: hear stories like this, if you're in the West, you
36:18
Speaker 1: have to be very careful to corroborate sources and make
36:21
Speaker 1: sure you're not getting some unfairly exoticized or as you
36:25
Speaker 1: said earlier, Eli mothered kind of accounts. But even with that,
36:30
Speaker 1: some of the articles I read, I really I like
36:33
Speaker 1: the way they painted the scene. The guys aren't just
36:36
Speaker 1: busting into these huts, to be clear, like they kick
36:38
Speaker 1: it on the stoop, uh, and they and they play
36:41
Speaker 1: some music, you know, and you know they do like
36:44
Speaker 1: their their wonder wall or whatever they're For some reason
36:54
Speaker 1: in my head, you know, I don't know what pop
36:56
Speaker 1: music is popular there now, but I wanted to be
36:58
Speaker 1: something like really cific. It would be hilarious if it
37:02
Speaker 1: was Smash Melts All Star and it was like just
37:04
Speaker 1: a very slow acoustic version, and then you know, it's
37:07
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, we could all use a little change
37:11
Speaker 1: so the uh, the thing is apparently if um, like
37:16
Speaker 1: you said, no, the consent is key. So if the um,
37:20
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say child, if they're thirteen, if the child
37:23
Speaker 1: is not interested, then uh they they just politely talked
37:28
Speaker 1: for a little while and then the boy moves on.
37:32
Speaker 1: So there's no like, there's no entrance into this thing
37:35
Speaker 1: without the consent of the of the person living in
37:38
Speaker 1: the maiden hunt, which I think is great. Well, I
37:40
Speaker 1: like the way you describe that, Ben, It's it's it
37:43
Speaker 1: reminds me of all you're saying that it goes kind
37:45
Speaker 1: of back to nature, and you know, it's sort of
37:47
Speaker 1: feels like these more um uh animal like rituals of
37:51
Speaker 1: of having to woo the male has to come over
37:53
Speaker 1: and show his fancy feathers in order to get the
37:56
Speaker 1: female interested, and that that's I kind of like that idea. Yeah,
38:00
Speaker 1: me too, where's my fancy feathers. It also just kind
38:05
Speaker 1: of goes to show how so many of these ideas
38:08
Speaker 1: are like constructs of that we kind of build for ourselves.
38:13
Speaker 1: Um And unfortunately even the Krung people are not completely
38:19
Speaker 1: oblivious to that, are completely not you know, affected by
38:22
Speaker 1: these things because these practices have kind of started to
38:26
Speaker 1: wane a little bit. And that's largely because so Okay,
38:28
Speaker 1: a big part of it was the functionality of it.
38:30
Speaker 1: Very much like your story, Diana, where the Puritans lived
38:34
Speaker 1: in these tiny, you know, single common area homes. Uh.
38:38
Speaker 1: That's the same with the Krung people. Um, they have these,
38:43
Speaker 1: like I said, very rudimentary kind of bamboo huts. So
38:46
Speaker 1: it was like kind of like it made sense that
38:48
Speaker 1: when you know, a girl reached a certain age to
38:51
Speaker 1: move her out because they wanted the space. And also
38:53
Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't have a wooing tube or whatever
38:57
Speaker 1: it's called. Um, and they bundling wasn't exactly a thing.
39:01
Speaker 1: But this is not that different. I mean, you're like,
39:03
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that it was sort of the
39:06
Speaker 1: leadership of the church that walked back bundling and sort
39:10
Speaker 1: of took that agency away from from women that was
39:13
Speaker 1: already there. Uh. And what's happening here is, as you know,
39:18
Speaker 1: technology kind of reaches these areas. Again, this article was
39:21
Speaker 1: from two thousand eleven. A lot of lots happened since
39:24
Speaker 1: then in terms of just like the exponential availability of
39:28
Speaker 1: technology and just like you know, the affordability as well,
39:31
Speaker 1: and even like you know, things like access to the internet,
39:33
Speaker 1: like even in like it's really really remote areas. So
39:36
Speaker 1: what's happening is there's also more wealth kind of pouring
39:40
Speaker 1: into some of these more you know areas which different
39:44
Speaker 1: different building materials. So instead of using bamboo and these
39:48
Speaker 1: kind of temporary structures and having this reason to kind
39:51
Speaker 1: of keep this tradition going, now they're building their homes
39:54
Speaker 1: out of brick and concrete and such, and they want
39:57
Speaker 1: all of their rooms to be contained within the one house,
40:00
Speaker 1: so it doesn't make sense to build it, and then
40:02
Speaker 1: the tradition of it all kind of falls apart at
40:05
Speaker 1: that point, right, and it just seems like this is
40:09
Speaker 1: something that is maybe going to disappear. And that's actually
40:12
Speaker 1: what the article on advice is about. It's called the
40:15
Speaker 1: Struggle to save teen Love Huts. In Cambodia, they're also
40:19
Speaker 1: referred to as maiden huts. But the thing is, all
40:23
Speaker 1: of the stories that I've read about the relationships that
40:26
Speaker 1: these led to they last lifetime. I mean, like there's
40:30
Speaker 1: like very little divorced as well, and like, you know,
40:32
Speaker 1: because you have a chance to actually get to know
40:35
Speaker 1: your partner both sexually and uh, you know, in terms
40:37
Speaker 1: of like, hey, I like to hang out with you
40:39
Speaker 1: because you're you know, we actually have things in common.
40:42
Speaker 1: And honestly, it's the conversation that sort of starts the
40:44
Speaker 1: whole thing. And if a woman has decides like, oh,
40:47
Speaker 1: this dude's dull, like she can just kick him right
40:49
Speaker 1: on out. Or sometimes they'll just snuggle and sleep in
40:51
Speaker 1: the same room, but there won't be maybe you know,
40:53
Speaker 1: maybe some some hand stuff all of the Puritans, but
40:56
Speaker 1: that's it, and then there's no hard feelings, right, and
40:59
Speaker 1: there's no concept of jealousy there. Again, like we said,
41:03
Speaker 1: sexual violence and rape are very very very very rare,
41:07
Speaker 1: but just the idea of jealousy is like not a thing.
41:10
Speaker 1: You kind of just accept it and move on. And
41:11
Speaker 1: it's all because of what the woman wants. And I
41:14
Speaker 1: don't know, I think it's great. One thing that that
41:23
Speaker 1: feels important to mention here is that this is this
41:27
Speaker 1: is a practice in the Highlands, right. This is a
41:30
Speaker 1: specific community of specific people. So it's not Cambodia overall. No, No,
41:35
Speaker 1: it's specifically in an area or a village called crow
41:39
Speaker 1: law Um in an area called retan Akiri in Cambodia.
41:44
Speaker 1: It's like I said very much. You know, in a
41:46
Speaker 1: deep wooded kind of areas, and Cambodia itself, we know
41:51
Speaker 1: is incredibly conservative when it comes to ideas of things
41:55
Speaker 1: like divorce. I think, uh, I think they're divorce rate
42:00
Speaker 1: was like back there's an old stap but back in
42:03
Speaker 1: the late nineties, their divorce rate was two point four percent,
42:07
Speaker 1: at least their official would because it would be a
42:09
Speaker 1: costly processed So I'm saying that if the if the
42:13
Speaker 1: culture is like the culture and the rest of Cambodia,
42:16
Speaker 1: divorce is supposed to be an extremely shameful affair. So
42:20
Speaker 1: just to point out, it may be possible that there
42:23
Speaker 1: are people stuck in unhappy marriages, but to be fair,
42:26
Speaker 1: that happens in the United States, where divorce is much easier.
42:30
Speaker 1: So I was about to ask if you knew if
42:32
Speaker 1: they did kind of what we did when we couldn't divorce,
42:36
Speaker 1: which was the guy would kind of go off and
42:38
Speaker 1: do whatever and the lady would like have like a
42:40
Speaker 1: guy just hang out with her, Like no, when I'm married.
42:43
Speaker 1: When I'm married, we just lived together for years. Yeah,
42:49
Speaker 1: Like I wonder if they have anything like that. Yes,
42:52
Speaker 1: we just have a kid together. But it's no big deal,
42:56
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, No, I don't know specifically how they
42:59
Speaker 1: handle divorce, sure that how they handle you know, separation
43:02
Speaker 1: like that. But um, it is it is kind of
43:04
Speaker 1: sad that these maiden huts or love huts really are
43:08
Speaker 1: much much, much more rare these days. Um. There certainly
43:11
Speaker 1: are pockets where it still goes on, um, but it
43:15
Speaker 1: is just becoming increasingly more unusual. Uh. And it's the
43:19
Speaker 1: Vice article actually interviews a chawby um who was fifteen
43:25
Speaker 1: in the early sixties, so that's when this was kind
43:27
Speaker 1: of maybe at its peak. And that's she describes kind
43:30
Speaker 1: of her experience back when she was young and how
43:32
Speaker 1: different things are now. So um, really really interesting. Sounds
43:36
Speaker 1: like the the it's the original she shed. It gives
43:42
Speaker 1: me two questions, I guess, Um, One, are these girls
43:46
Speaker 1: permitted to Is this a voluntary thing? If girls are
43:50
Speaker 1: just like I don't want I don't want to love shack,
43:53
Speaker 1: I don't want to build one, is that something? And
43:55
Speaker 1: then also it seems, uh, you know it's very heterosexually
43:59
Speaker 1: dre even sure. I don't know if that ever comes up. Yeah, no,
44:03
Speaker 1: nothing that I've seen, but I wouldn't be surprised me.
44:06
Speaker 1: I don't want to uh, you know, conjecture, but I
44:09
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised given the kind of progressive nature of
44:13
Speaker 1: this whole practice, if even things like um, same sex,
44:17
Speaker 1: you know, relationships were a little more uh, a little
44:20
Speaker 1: less frowned upon. But again I haven't really seen anything
44:22
Speaker 1: about that specifically. But as far as like, you know,
44:26
Speaker 1: are they forced to do this, I honestly think it's
44:29
Speaker 1: just always kind of looked at as a privilege, and
44:32
Speaker 1: it is. It was so ingrained kind of in the culture,
44:34
Speaker 1: and it gives you so much control, and you know,
44:37
Speaker 1: it is it is ultimately about getting married. Like I mean,
44:40
Speaker 1: I think you're you're right, you know, I get what
44:42
Speaker 1: you're saying. You like, like, what if I don't want
44:44
Speaker 1: to get married, or what if I just want to
44:45
Speaker 1: be single and that's nothing that's important to me. I
44:47
Speaker 1: think that part of it is a little arm twisty, right,
44:50
Speaker 1: Like I mean, so there is still some you know,
44:54
Speaker 1: forcing young women to fit into a certain mold, but
44:59
Speaker 1: at least it's on their own terms. I'm seeing the
45:02
Speaker 1: Disney Pixar princess who doesn't want to you know, it
45:06
Speaker 1: goes on a journey instead or does it want to leave?
45:09
Speaker 1: I think you can stay at twenty About to ask
45:13
Speaker 1: did they get married really early? Because I know you
45:16
Speaker 1: said it was like twelve to fifteen. Is that when
45:18
Speaker 1: they start? Yeah, it's it's unclear as if there's like
45:21
Speaker 1: a clock on it, you know what I mean. But
45:24
Speaker 1: it's as far as like how long do you have
45:26
Speaker 1: to to make your decision? Like are people like really
45:28
Speaker 1: breathing down your neck about it? Your you know, your parents.
45:30
Speaker 1: I kind of get the sense that they are to
45:32
Speaker 1: a degree um. But again today, according to this Vice article,
45:38
Speaker 1: women are young girls rather are often married by the
45:41
Speaker 1: time they're twelve. It does it was a bit of
45:45
Speaker 1: a late bloomer. So I feel like, if you know,
45:47
Speaker 1: I don't, I wasn't really interested in boys there anything
45:50
Speaker 1: like that until I was until I was at least sixteen,
45:52
Speaker 1: and you know, I didn't really care about that. So
45:54
Speaker 1: I was like, I would be like, damn, I missed
45:56
Speaker 1: my chance for my love. Hut, I just got a
45:58
Speaker 1: big one. The chob I mentioned earlier said that people
46:04
Speaker 1: would stay in there up until they were twenty five,
46:07
Speaker 1: So it seems like it goes um. While the beginning
46:12
Speaker 1: may hinge on you know, signs of puberty or something
46:15
Speaker 1: like that. It looks like the maiden in the maiden
46:18
Speaker 1: Hut has a lot of latitude and agency to decide
46:21
Speaker 1: when they're done or when they find their partner. But again,
46:24
Speaker 1: there are a lot of you know, in these communities,
46:27
Speaker 1: there may be a lot of other pressures that were
46:29
Speaker 1: not aware of that might push someone into a marriage
46:33
Speaker 1: of some sort. Well, and what about birth control or
46:35
Speaker 1: there are a lot of teen pregnancies some Yeah, no,
46:39
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely a thing. There are unplanned pregnancies. But
46:43
Speaker 1: you know, again talking reading interviews with some of these
46:46
Speaker 1: these young women, they understand safe sex and they practice it.
46:52
Speaker 1: If there ever is an unplanned pregnancy, um, it is
46:56
Speaker 1: you know, a situation where the man has to provide
46:59
Speaker 1: for that child. Um So, so even if they don't
47:02
Speaker 1: get married, he still has responsibility for that's very much. So.
47:07
Speaker 1: I don't think it instantly means they have to get
47:10
Speaker 1: married either. According to the Marie Claar article, typically if
47:14
Speaker 1: this happens, they will get married. But at the end
47:17
Speaker 1: of the day, if if the girl does not choose him,
47:20
Speaker 1: the man still has to you know, provide for the
47:22
Speaker 1: child and raise the child as his own. All right,
47:26
Speaker 1: So there you haven't um two very different but kind
47:31
Speaker 1: of weirdly spiritually entwined kind of stories of courtship. Yeah.
47:36
Speaker 1: I like that we went around the world in this series.
47:39
Speaker 1: And and there's something else that happened we mentioned in
47:43
Speaker 1: part one. I think I had noted that we're barely
47:48
Speaker 1: scratching the surface because we found so many other odd things, right,
47:53
Speaker 1: and and of course we have to be aware of
47:55
Speaker 1: cultural bias. The United States is full of very strange
48:00
Speaker 1: courtship rituals. His future historians are going to look back like,
48:03
Speaker 1: what the hell were they doing? You know? And uh,
48:07
Speaker 1: And so I personally can't wait to hear more people's
48:12
Speaker 1: stories of unique courtship customs. But I also can't wait
48:17
Speaker 1: to hear more ridiculous romance. Diana Eli, thank you both
48:22
Speaker 1: so much for joining us for part two. Can you
48:25
Speaker 1: give us a give the ridiculous historians a little bit
48:28
Speaker 1: of a spoiler for some episodes you guys are working on.
48:31
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we got a great this whole week coming up.
48:34
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna be looking at two very powerful couples
48:38
Speaker 1: who uh the women of which wives of rulers who
48:43
Speaker 1: had an incredible influence on on those rules. So we're
48:47
Speaker 1: talking about Winston Clementine Churchill, uh, and it particularly Clementine's
48:52
Speaker 1: influence on World War Two, which is really only uncovered
48:55
Speaker 1: in the last few years, and it's outrageous. We would
48:57
Speaker 1: we would all be speaking German today if it weren't
48:59
Speaker 1: for Clementine church show quickly absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And then
49:03
Speaker 1: we also went to ancient Egypt in BC times to
49:07
Speaker 1: hear about a Menotep the third and his powerful queen
49:10
Speaker 1: Tier and she was It's a lot a lot harder
49:14
Speaker 1: to find out what exactly, you know, specifically was going
49:17
Speaker 1: on in the day to day of ancient Egypt, but
49:20
Speaker 1: it's very clear that she definitely had a lot of
49:23
Speaker 1: influence in foreign relations and stuff during that time. So
49:27
Speaker 1: so she's also the reason this podcast is in German, thankfully,
49:32
Speaker 1: thanks for Queen Tia keeping us all from speaking Germany.
49:38
Speaker 1: Number that she was very worried about it. We do
49:42
Speaker 1: get sucked into a lot of butterfly effect conversations sometimes
49:45
Speaker 1: thinking about if these two hadn't met in you know,
49:50
Speaker 1: what would be different now? We wouldn't we wouldn't have
49:52
Speaker 1: ending machines or something. Yeah, it would be it would
49:56
Speaker 1: be something very I love those conversations because the further
50:00
Speaker 1: back in time you go, the smaller and stranger and
50:03
Speaker 1: more specific the thing can become. You know, definitely like
50:07
Speaker 1: crocks if you think about it, jengis cot just think
50:14
Speaker 1: about adults, say no yet think it through. Uh. This
50:18
Speaker 1: has been such a blast. Uh. I cannot wait to
50:22
Speaker 1: hear those episodes of Ridiculous Romance. Uh they do come
50:26
Speaker 1: out twice a week. And uh no, I thought we did.
50:30
Speaker 1: I thought we did all right on this one. What
50:31
Speaker 1: do you think, man? I think we did. And we
50:33
Speaker 1: had two solid episodes out of it too, and like
50:37
Speaker 1: you said, been kind of a tour around the world.
50:39
Speaker 1: We gotta do this again, you guys super fun. I
50:43
Speaker 1: certainly learned a lot and I will definitely sound a
50:46
Speaker 1: little smarter at the next party I go to, which
50:49
Speaker 1: I think we're all we're gonna be going to together.
50:50
Speaker 1: I think we're all going to a podcast conference thing
50:53
Speaker 1: in Nashville. The whole Ridiculous crew really excited about that,
50:57
Speaker 1: very excited. They can't wait. And we helped have you
51:00
Speaker 1: guys on our show soon too. Yeah, so anytime. Well,
51:05
Speaker 1: thanks again to Eli and Diana from Ridiculous Romance. You
51:07
Speaker 1: can find that show everywhere you get your favorite podcast.
51:11
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to super producers Casey Begraham, suproducer Max Williams,
51:15
Speaker 1: Alex Williams who composed our theme. Big big thanks to
51:19
Speaker 1: Christopher Hassi ootis to our research associate Gabe Louisier, and
51:24
Speaker 1: two of course we do. We will say his name
51:26
Speaker 1: this time because we haven't met our beetlejuice rule yet,
51:29
Speaker 1: But thanks to Jonathan Strickland's a k. The Quister, I
51:33
Speaker 1: imagine that he has a few weird courtship rituals of
51:39
Speaker 1: his own, as stories as anecdotes. I'm not accusing the
51:41
Speaker 1: guy anything. We'll see you next time, folks. For more
51:52
Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
51:54
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.