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What's It Like to Write A Book? · The Strategic Pause

• Jill Parish: Hello and welcome to the Strategic Pause. I'm Jill Parrish and I'm here with my fellow podcaster, Katrina Kennedy. Thanks for joining today. I'm super excited about today. Today, ⁓ we are going to talk about what's it like to write a book because Katrina is an author and it's something I know almost nothing about. And so I'm very excited to learn with you all and we're going to do this sort of in a interview light format. So I'm going to ask her some questions and then we'll sort of riff off of that. I have no doubt though that we will still hit all of our KPIs. So I'm not worried about that. ⁓ So ⁓ Katrina, why don't you start with, I'm just curious, was writing a book something you'd always wanted to do? Were you like the little kid who was like, I'm going to be an author or how did that come about for you? Katrina Kennedy: So I was always the nerdy little kid who loved to write and loved, loved writing. Like I would have notebooks where I would just like make up reports of each of the presidents of the United States or whatever I could like write about. And so in third grade, I had a fabulous teacher, Mrs. King, and I told her that I wanted to write a book someday. And she said, you can do that." And so she was like the first adult who totally believed in me and was like, yes, you can. ⁓ And so then, you know, as life progressed, I thought I wanted to go into journalism and kind of do that type of writing. And then in college, I took a journalism class and I didn't love it. And so I switched to English. And then life... progressed and I switched to sociology and then I got a job, totally unrelated, and then I had a child and then life kept going and going. And one day in my kitchen Jill Parish: Thank Katrina Kennedy: I, my, we were having a conversation and my son said, what did you want to be when you grew up? And I said, I wanted to be a writer. And he said, well, why don't you do that? Yeah, I got called out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Jill Parish: Yeah, out of the mouths of babes, right? Yeah. Did you always want to write about a specific topic or was it just like the writing to write? Like you just love that process. Katrina Kennedy: It was always just the, there was never a specific topic. It was just writing to write. was like that. I think you and I have talked before about just like, liking to think. I really, really like to think. And I really like to think deeply. Like, like I wear my nerd, you know, I, I, it's who I am. It's who I am. ⁓ so yeah, there was never a topic. Jill Parish: Okay. Mm. Yeah Katrina Kennedy: There was never a topic, it was just the act. ⁓ Jill Parish: Okay, so we're gonna get to your actual published book, but before we do that, did you ever like, do you have books that you've written that you have not published? Do you have like partially written manuscripts in your back closet? Like was the first book you wrote, actually the first book you wrote? Katrina Kennedy: no. So let's see if you can see it. There's a shelf down there. It has a binder or two. It actually has a green binder and then it has a stack of paper. So those are the three books that I wrote that never went out into the world. ⁓ Yeah, the three. Jill Parish: No. Okay. Yeah. The three! Okay, okay. Katrina Kennedy: I might have, you know, had had a little like, you know, we could call it imposter syndrome, but that's like almost like I kind of almost am over that term. ⁓ But I guess that's what it was. Just one of them I started, gosh, probably 22 years ago about book groups and actually reached out to Jill Parish: Hmm. Katrina Kennedy: At the time, like I reached out to Hillary Clinton, I reached out to Warren Bennis at UCLA, I reached out to a lot of authors, a lot of people who had written books to get information from them about their book and questions they would ask if they were doing a book group. So that was my first like really kind of complete thing. ⁓ And then I just got caught up in myself and was like, well, nobody would want this and, and Jill Parish: Okay. No. Katrina Kennedy: And then I did that a second time and a third time. And the third time is the one that ultimately led to the book that I published. But the third one is not the book that I published. Jill Parish: So you have, what's about the books? So you have three fully written books that you have just never gone after publishing. Katrina Kennedy: Pretty much, yes, yeah. Jill Parish: ⁓ my goodness, I did not know this. ⁓ Are you allowed to tell us the second and the third, the topics? Is that something you talk about? Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah, so the second one was just kind of a brain dump of everything, learning and development. I think it was called something design, like goodbye design, something, I don't know. I don't even remember. I'd have to look it up. And then the third book was all about engagement. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: how to engage people in learning and development and training specifically. So, there. Jill Parish: So I would just like to put a vote out there for getting all three of those published. But, yeah, but I mean, I bet there's so much better than you think, but that's okay. We'll talk about that later. We'll talk about that offline. We'll make that happen. How did the third book that is not the one you wrote end up teeing off the one you actually wrote? Katrina Kennedy: this. So I had the kitchen moment with my son, right? Like, go be a writer. And then my dear friend, Paul Breyly, who has a podcast called Off the Comma. And he interviews people. He has a very successful podcast, in fact. He interviews people who have had something in their life that they were kind of stuck on and then they overcame it. And most of the people on his podcast have overcome their thing. Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: And early on when he was just launching the podcast, he asked if I would be on it. And I was like, yes, but I'm stuck. So let's talk about that. And Paul is a fabulous coach and that is what he's a coach and trainer. And ⁓ he leads his podcast as a, like a coach. He doesn't call it coaching, but that's really what it feels like when you. Jill Parish: ⁓ Okay. Katrina Kennedy: you're on his podcast or you listen to his podcast. And so I talked about that third book. I talked about always wanting to write a book. And he dug in. He dug in really deep on like what was holding me back and Jill Parish: Okay. you Katrina Kennedy: dug into my childhood, dug into like lots of stuff. And ⁓ out of that, I decided that it was time. So after the podcast, like literally the next day, I reached out to a contact that I had made with the Association of Talent Development, ATD Press, and said, I'd like to talk about Jill Parish: ⁓ wow. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: a book idea. And so I got on Zoom with them and we discussed what the engagement book, and it took, was, I wrote it from a perspective of attention and the importance of attention, the kinds of attention, blah, blah, blah. But it was also like a brain dump of everything I've ever done, everything, everything. Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: And so I decided to just share it with them. So I sent them a link to it. I think about that now and it almost makes me want to throw up. ⁓ Like, when I said them, it was so bad. Jill Parish: It really is sort of sending somebody the inner workings of your brain. I can understand that's a pretty vulnerable thing to do. Katrina Kennedy: It's a wild place to be, you know, it's, I don't like the childhood, like the child to book analogies, but there are some that really work because it is a bit like, you know, you're, you're putting Connor on a plane and he's going out there and you hope that like, you hope that he, yeah. Right, right, right. Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of your baby. I am, I totally, yeah. Yeah. I can see that. Katrina Kennedy: and so Jack Harlow, who is a fabulous human, contacted me and said, this won't work. This is just too, like, this is all over the place. But, right, exactly, exactly. And, ⁓ but, but then he also said, you have a book in you, like, Jill Parish: He said, I say this with love. No. Katrina Kennedy: We just need to find it. We just need to find the idea. And it needs to be a little more focused. Jill Parish: Not so much this wide out here, but maybe closer in here. Katrina Kennedy: you Yeah, let's get like in here. And, and so I said, okay, really, like, let's, let's connect again, once we figure this out. And so I was brainstorming ideas and, you know, and trying to come up with something. And meanwhile, I was on LinkedIn, and ⁓ I had commented on a post by Carl Kopp who has been in learning and development for a really long time. He's really wise. He always has good information about active learning. And he had written a post about wisdom and reflection. And I commented, I don't even know what the comment was now. I could go find it, but I don't remember what it was. I'm sure it was brilliant. Jill Parish: It was brilliant, clearly. Yes, okay, we'll just go with that. Katrina Kennedy: Okay, okay. And then Jack reached out to me and said, I think that's your book. I think reflection is your book. And I thought about it. And I went in the kitchen again, there's like some of our best conversations happen in my kitchen. ⁓ I told my son, think I'm gonna write a book about reflection. And he looked at me, he didn't miss a beat. He said, of course you are. Jill Parish: Mmm. you You Hahaha! Again, out of the mouth of babes. Katrina Kennedy: Right, exactly, exactly. And then when I stepped back and really looked at it, it was like, ⁓ well, this totally makes sense. This is the book I need to write. ⁓ Reflection, retrieval and reflection are essential in all the work that I do. Like it's essential to any training, any learning that we do, because it is how, is one of the mechanisms we use to learn, right? And ⁓ I love, I love, love, love. Jill Parish: Great. Great. Katrina Kennedy: those types of activities. so I put a proposal together and they have a group that looks at the proposals once a month and they said no. Again, like, okay, two strikes. ⁓ Because I had come at it from more of like a philosophical, like, let's talk about reflection and Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: What is it? And what does it mean? And, and, um, but Jack said, rewrite the proposal. If you can rewrite it and get it back to me, we're going to meet again in February and they'll look at it again. And I said, okay, I turned it around the next month. I changed it entirely. I found buckets. I'm like, okay, let's just like have some outcomes. Let's like make it activity based. Here it is. And they said yes to that. Jill Parish: Did he give you like feedback? Like, hey, here's what you could do to tie this up. Okay. So you had a little direction hopefully from them. Katrina Kennedy: I did, I did. actually have a really lengthy email that he wrote directly in response to that first proposal, which I was able to then take that. And he even gave me some titles of other books to look at. And so I was able to use those as inspiration for kind of structure and land on Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: learning that lasts. Jill Parish: Okay, so you had a proposal. How long was your proposal? Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ so probably, probably like four to five pages, ⁓ of very specific questions they give you, like they give you a proposal format and in, in publishing, if you are publishing traditionally, there is kind of a standard format that, that you follow. So their format's pretty standard. Jill Parish: ⁓ Okay. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: You know, they ask you like, who's the audience? What's your platform? You know, how many followers do you have? ⁓ What's your marketing plan for the book? ⁓ And then they ask you for a sample chapter. yeah, so, and an outline. They want an outline of the whole book structure as well. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay, so they say yes, so what happens next? Katrina Kennedy: So once they say yes, then ⁓ it goes to contract and they draw up a contract and you read it and realize you have really no power to change anything on the contract. So you just smile and nod and sign it. You could try to like ask for things and they're just going to be like, no. ⁓ Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And ATD is a very small press. And if you're working with a small press, like Jill Parish: Perfect, good. Okay. And they'll smile and say no, just lovely faces. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: you're not going to get a lot. Like there's not an advance. There's not, you know, there's not money up front. ⁓ So in that contract, they set two key dates. One is your 50 % date and the other is your 100%. So what the date that they want to see 50 % of your manuscript done, and then the date that they want the final manuscript. And we had a really very rigorous schedule. ⁓ We signed Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: I signed my contract in April, July was my halfway point, my 50 % point, and then October was my 100%. Jill Parish: ⁓ wow. ⁓ so you signed in April, had to have half the book written in July and the full book written in October. Whew! Okay. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, so those are dates that you also give them in the proposal. You say like, I can do it by this point. So it's not, they're not, yeah, you have some control over that. Yeah, they're not, they're not like say, you need to now put all your life aside and get to writing. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. So you have some agency in that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. Okay. So if, let's just say, if you don't hit that date, right. So you're like, ⁓ I was watching Ted Lasso for too long and I didn't hit that date. Did they like shut that down? I mean, is that, is it in the contract that says we're done here? If you don't submit by this date. Katrina Kennedy: No, it's I don't know what the the exact contract language is for that or I don't think I don't think there's like a repercussion I think I think they definitely probably have the control that they could ⁓ But I mean I give me a deadline. I will meet it Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. Okay. You will meet it. Okay. So what is the- Go ahead. Katrina Kennedy: Like, I am... I won't exceed it, but I will meet it. Jill Parish: It was July 1st, the deadline and you submitted it July, or June 30th at 11.59pm. Katrina Kennedy: Exactly, exactly. Like that's how I operate. I need a good deadline. But a deadline's a deadline, right? Like not a week before. Who does that? Jill Parish: Right, Me. I do that. Katrina Kennedy: I don't even, I can't even relate to that. Jill Parish: Okay, so you were like, okay, there's books to go. I've got essentially, you know, three months maybe ish to write. What did you do? Like, how did you go about that? Katrina Kennedy: So I have a job, right? And I know it is, it really is sometimes. And so I continue to do the job, but I typically take June, July, August, I do less work. And so I wrote, like I would write almost daily. I kept track of... Jill Parish: That's so annoying! Thank Okay. Katrina Kennedy: I had a ⁓ very extensive spreadsheet that broke it down to how many words I needed to write each day in order to hit that 50 % mark. And so I would write, I couldn't, didn't, I wrote very little at home. I would go to the same coffee shop, sit in the same corner and write for a couple of hours. And then I would go home and be done. And, ⁓ Jill Parish: ⁓ wow. ⁓ Chris. Katrina Kennedy: on Saturdays and Sundays, I'd often go back to the coffee shop, usually with my husband. He would take a book and I would again write for a couple of hours. ⁓ I discovered that if I flew, I'd really love to write on a plane ⁓ because there's nothing else, right? Like there's, ⁓ man, yeah. And that was the summer that Jill Parish: Okay. I love working on a plane. It is the best. Yes, I'm right there with you. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: My son was preparing to go to Salem State, so he was going to move to Massachusetts. So we had college orientation for one trip, and then we moved him for another trip. ⁓ So those all became plane writing and airport writing. that was the summer too that I decided to write in libraries. Jill Parish: OK. Katrina Kennedy: So I wrote in the library in Salem, Massachusetts, which is this quaint little cute library that's really old. I wrote in the New York Public Library, ⁓ which was pretty fabulous. I wrote in my local library. ⁓ So it was really just taking advantage of those moments when I could fit the writing in, but very little writing. Jill Parish: ⁓ that's cool. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: in my office or in my home. Jill Parish: And is that because you just, you felt like you weren't the same like of creativity wasn't happening or just because you couldn't bear to sit there one more minute? Katrina Kennedy: I think it minimized distractions. I think it's easy to sit at my desk and then suddenly like I should organize my desk or I should check my email or I should see like what's going on or I should go like pull the weeds in the garden or go make dinner or put laundry in or there's always something. ⁓ And so going to coffee and sitting there ⁓ just... Jill Parish: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: no distractions and nothing pulling my attention away. Jill Parish: I love that. Okay, so it's July and you give them 50 % of the book. Do they critique it before you can move on or what does that look like? Katrina Kennedy: Mm-hmm. Basically it was like, okay, you've checked in, you're good, keep on going. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't until they had the complete manuscript. Now, you know, I'm saying that, I'm saying that and that's not completely true. I'm trying to decide, I'm trying to remember at what point it became like, so they, you never give them the whole manuscript. You give it to them chapter by chapter. Jill Parish: Really? Okay. ⁓ okay. Katrina Kennedy: and they edit in that way as well. So they edit chapter by chapter. And that started really in October once the whole manuscript was done, even though you don't give them the whole manuscript as one item. Jill Parish: So they don't really give you any feedback like, yeah, you're on the right track or like, wow, you couldn't be so far off. in July, there's nothing, there's not real time stuff happening right there. Katrina Kennedy: No, not really. Like I probably could have asked for it, but at that point it was just like, let's get this done. Let's get these words done. Jill Parish: Okay. Yeah, please, I don't want to do this. Okay, that actually leads me to my next question. Did you like that process of writing? mean, did you enjoy the writing every single day or did it become a slog at some point for you? Katrina Kennedy: and loved it. Jill Parish: Of course you did. Katrina Kennedy: I loved it. mean, one, it was the perfect reason to have to go drink matcha. First of all. And I really need something to do. ⁓ I am not good at watching TV. I am not good at like sit down and watch a movie. ⁓ I'm good at sitting and reading. Jill Parish: That's true. Right. Okay. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: to a point. But I really loved having this big project that you're kind of whittling away at that ultimately has a deadline. I think so much of the work that we do in learning and development is like, okay, I have this class tomorrow and okay, I have this class on Thursday. Jill Parish: Mmm. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: And then I'm going to do this class again, but I want to make it all better and I want it to be different and I need to upgrade it and I got feedback. so like it never is done. And in fact, I, right. And in fact, when I teach designing training, like that's one of the things I tell people, like you're never done. Which is kind of daunting, right? Jill Parish: It never finishes. You're so right. Yeah. Get used to that. Yeah. So you still loved it. I mean, you like really enjoyed that process and, didn't get to like August and you weren't like, cannot write like one more day of my life. Like that was not a thing for you. Katrina Kennedy: No, no, I really didn't have that because there's something really cool about... This is my nerdy self. There is something really cool about watching that number grow on the spreadsheet. That like, ⁓ it's bigger, it's bigger. We're almost there, we're almost there. Jill Parish: Some people would think that's really cool. Katrina Kennedy: This person thinks that's really cool. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. So you hit your mark and you submit it and then what happens? Katrina Kennedy: And then it starts coming back. Jill Parish: ⁓ Katrina Kennedy: So now the editor has it. So the editor has it. And one of the things to keep in mind is that there's not an editor, there are like four editors and there are different types of editing. It's one of the things that I learned. like the first person is your acquisition editor. That was Jack who was like working through like, there's an idea in here, let's find the idea. Then you go to the development editor. Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: And the development editor looks at the chapters, looks at the words, looks at the flow and is like, does this work? Does this, you know, just do, or do these stories make sense? Do we have a structure and a flow? And, ⁓ and so that's when you get it back kind of like high school essays. Like, you know, this circled, this doesn't work. Change this. Yeah. Jill Parish: Okay. red pen. Okay. Katrina Kennedy: I hated that process. That process sucks. ⁓ It's what gets a good book ultimately out in the world. ⁓ But that process is hard. That process is hard. It was... Jill Parish: Yeah, yeah, I imagine. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: It was, I had a difficult experience with the editor who was a delightful person. Um, but, know, she was also pulled in multiple directions with her job and, you know, she's trying to fit it in this, you know, 60,000 word editing. Jill Parish: Mm-hmm. Katrina Kennedy: while doing other things as well. And so that was just, that was a really hard process. That was, that sucked. Jill Parish: Well, I mean, we talked about how it's kind of your baby. So it seems like potentially it's just someone telling you your baby's ugly in many different ways, sort of over and over again. Katrina Kennedy: Right, right. And it's not all negative. mean, sometimes it's like, this doesn't flow, so we need more. Or, you know, put another example here or come up with a story here. and so, so it's a lot of like, you know, you've, you've given everything and now like, okay, you're, you're not done. You got to give some more, like give some more, give some more. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Oof. Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ And I think the, you know, add more stories was probably hard. And then just the explain this in a, like a clearer way or be more specific that that became hard. But I think that hard work also produced a better book. So. Jill Parish: Yeah. Okay, so you had to take back your work that you had diligently completed. And then did you have like another deadline to like get all the other stuff back? Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, and that deadline was sometimes really short because it was determined by when the editor got it to me in order to meet the next deadline. you know, sometimes there was a big window for that and sometimes it was literally like we need this in a week. so that's happening. I feel like there's some context of life here. That was happening at the same time. Jill Parish: So. Okay. Yeah. Katrina Kennedy: that my child has moved cross country and is managing school at the same time I'm managing being an empty nester. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a lot. Jill Parish: ⁓ yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah, that's a lot. Also, you met me during that period of time. So there was that glimmer of just pure joy that you got to experience as well during that time. Katrina Kennedy: I did. Absolutely, was like the light just like on me the Jill light the the jilt it was the jilt Jill Parish: The joke! And you just made up a new word, KPIs! Katrina Kennedy: There we go! Met! Met! Right there. Jill Parish: I love it. Okay. So you were just managing nothing and just editing your book like it was nothing and it was no big deal. And then you send it back. Is that the end of the editing? No. Katrina Kennedy: Nope, nope, because now we have copy editing. Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: And copy editing is that picky, picky, like word choice, spelling, grammar, sources, all that stuff happens in the copy edit. But the copy edit is actually, I think probably the easier one. It's the faster one ⁓ because you're not looking at structure anymore. You're not looking at ⁓ finding sources. You're not digging. Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: deeper into the content of what you've written. that one goes faster. ⁓ And then from copy edit, which is another person, right? Like, so different person, different relationship. Then you go to layout. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. Okay, so that's third editor. Okay. So, okay. Katrina Kennedy: And so layout is when it's now it looks like a book. Now, like, it's got the pagination, it's got the, you know, they've the one of the things the development editor does is like break it into like subheadings and sub subheadings so that it, you know, it looks like a book that when you pick it up, you want to read. ⁓ And we made a huge change in the layout editing ⁓ that at first I was like, ⁓ I don't know. Jill Parish: OK. Right, okay. Katrina Kennedy: But ultimately, I think it worked because every activity, there are 46 of them, and every activity started by like, do this activity. Jill Parish: Okay. Katrina Kennedy: but it wasn't working in layout. Like it was, I'm not even exactly sure how it was impacting how the pages looked. So we moved it from the beginning of the activity to the end. And I was like, ⁓ I don't know. I don't know. But I think ultimately it worked. Like it is what it is. People like it. People are reading it. People are leaving reviews on Amazon, which is the best gift you can give an author. Jill Parish: ⁓ okay. ⁓ okay. Yeah. Yeah, give her that gift folks. Yeah. Okay. So at that point, I mean, this is like, feels like it's the end. They're essentially reworked the whole thing. Does that start anything over or are you still just able to move forward? Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ yes. Even if you didn't buy it on Amazon. So that is really the beginning of the end of the writing process. So once the layout is done, it goes to print. And then phase two of book writing begins, which is getting it out into the world, marketing it, letting people know that it exists and that you exist. And ⁓ it's a long process. Jill Parish: Okay. ⁓ okay. ⁓ Katrina Kennedy: So the final layout stuff happened in May and kind of overlapping that, you're beginning to do your marketing for the book. Asking people to endorse it, getting the endorsements that show up on the book, that happened like back in March and April. So there lots of parallel things happening. Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. ⁓ the endorsements. Okay. So do they do any more, does the press do any marketing for you or is that really on the author? Katrina Kennedy: So they do some, but most of that is on the author. ⁓ The benefit of ATD Press is that because it's connected to the association, they do have a really captive audience that comes to their website, buys books there, ⁓ members get a discount, and they send out... ⁓ Jill Parish: Okay. Okay. No, thanks. Katrina Kennedy: don't know how often, but probably quarterly is my guess. Like a quarterly catalog goes out. ⁓ They have a monthly magazine and I know that ⁓ they, I think there was an image of the book in the magazine twice. ⁓ So they're doing some marketing, but the bulk of the marketing, the bulk of like the really daily. Jill Parish: Okay, with their books. ⁓ okay. Katrina Kennedy: getting that word out there is on the author. Jill Parish: Okay. And so how long did that, I mean, has that ever ended? I guess, is that, is that a period of time or is it just the rest of your life? Katrina Kennedy: It's the rest of my life, right? It's the rest of the book's life. Like, and that's, that's one of the things that ⁓ I got this fabulous advice from, from Elaine Lynn Herring, who is an author as well. And I never remember the name of her book. It's about silence, about unlearning silence. That shouldn't be so hard. It's the one of the blue books up there. Unlearning silence. Jill Parish: That's kind of an ironic title that you can't remember the name. Katrina Kennedy: I know, I know. It's a fabulous book that every, I think everyone should read. But Elaine took the time to talk to me about book launch. And one of the pieces of advice she gave was that, you know, this is yours, like you do it your way. And my friend and author, Elena Slotska, Jill Parish: you Okay. Katrina Kennedy: who wrote measurement on a shoestring, she said to me, You don't think of this as something that you have to do in six months. It's like five years. Like this is a book. It'll be there forever. So we did a lot in that around the book launch time because you want to like, you know, you want to, that's when you have most of your sales, a big bulk of them and you want to create and create that. ⁓ so I kind of balanced Elaine, ⁓ and I just realized their names are so similar. Jill Parish: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Katrina Kennedy: I ⁓ balanced their feedback with my own capacity to pour my life into it. ⁓ so it got it out there. And so I'm still doing stuff, but just not as much as around that launch period. Jill Parish: I did notice that. was, yeah, yeah, I was noticing that. Yeah. Okay. And so, I can see we're almost out of time, but I have two questions I want to make sure we get to, and I want to make sure that we get the name of the book out there. But if somebody's listening and has always wanted to write a book or is contemplating, a book, what advice would you give that person? Katrina Kennedy: My advice would be to get really specific with who your audience is, who you're writing for, and grab the proposal format so that you can see, like, this is what I need to be thinking about. This is what they're going to want, because that format helps provide clarity. And if you're thinking about a nonfiction book, Jill Parish: Okay. Yeah. Mmm. Katrina Kennedy: then I would absolutely follow Anne Janzer, who is a fabulous author who has multiple nonfiction books about writing nonfiction. Jill Parish: Okay. ⁓ wow. OK. That's very meta. OK. OK. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, it is very meta and she's just a fabulous human. And then I would also consider following or even joining the Non-Fiction Authors Association. ⁓ yeah, there is. And ⁓ Stephanie Chandler is the CEO and she's actually located in Folsom. Jill Parish: ⁓ okay. I didn't even know that was a thing. No way! ⁓ that's fun. That's for us. Yeah, okay. Katrina Kennedy: I know, small world, right? Small world. But has fabulous resources, a lot of resources on self-publishing, if that is a route you want to go, as well as support for that. ⁓ So lots of good stuff out there. Jill Parish: ⁓ okay. That's so great. Okay, my last question before we talk about the actual book is, would you write another book? Katrina Kennedy: Yes. Jill Parish: in that face, is there already another book in the works? Katrina Kennedy: Ha ha! So may have been on a plane to Orlando recently where I might have written the proposal for the next book. Jill Parish: Okay. ⁓ really? Ooh. I'm guessing you're not allowed to say the topic, where are you? Katrina Kennedy: The topic, I'm still kind of working it out like specifically. I know I wrote the proposal. But the topic is is principles of learning. yeah, yeah, yeah. Jill Parish: This is so exciting. I did not know this. So this is brand new information right here. I love it. Katrina Kennedy: Yep. Yep. haven't, I haven't put the proposal out in the world yet. I haven't sent it, but, ⁓ there have, there have been some conversations about the success of my book and following it up with another book. Jill Parish: Okay. What? I love it. And what's next? Right? And what's next? Okay, before we end, give us a snippet. What is your book? Where can we find it? Tell us all the things. Katrina Kennedy: Yeah. It is Learning That Last. I just always have it here. ⁓ yay. Very impressive that you could just grab it. It is Learning That Last. It's reflection activities for trainers and designers and anyone who cares to remember something long term. ⁓ That isn't actually the subtitle, but I think it should be. ⁓ And you can find it anywhere that you buy books. Jill Parish: Look, I have it right here too. Learning that laugh. I love that, Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ It is available on Amazon where I would love for you to read or leave a review whether or not you bought it there. If you're an ATD member you can get it on their website and get your member discount. ⁓ And then any other online. I have not, no physical bookstores have it that I have ⁓ gone to yet. I haven't, I haven't pursued that route so. So there you go. Jill Parish: Okay. Maybe we should get some into that. What's I'm blanking. What's the Midtown bookstore? Maybe East Village Books needs it. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the perfect spot. So I think, I think we got to make that happen. Katrina Kennedy: East Village Book Shop, East Village Book Shop. I just need to go talk to them. Yeah, they can order it for you though. If you do find yourself there, they can order it for you. Jill Parish: Okay. There we go. OK, good. All right. Well, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for willing to be the interviewee today. I know we can't wait to see what the next one brings. So looking forward to that. Katrina Kennedy: ⁓ Thank you. I'm excited about it. least you'll see. Taking a little break, doing some other things for a while. Jill Parish: We shall like a podcast, for example. Yeah, that's good for me. Okeydoke signing off for today. Thanks for joining. Katrina Kennedy: Like a podcast. Exactly. All right. Thank you, Jill.