Latest / Technically Sound Strategy / Episode 41 - The Evolution of Legal Technology: Past, Present, and Future with Dennis Kennedy

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Episode 41 - The Evolution of Legal Technology: Past, Present, and Future with Dennis Kennedy · Technically Sound Strategy

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  Welcome to Legal Marketing Radio, a production of LaFleur Marketing.
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  This week I chat with Dennis Kennedy, director of the Center for Law Technology
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  and Innovation at Michigan State University about the evolution of legal
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  technology, past, present, and future.
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  Dennis Kennedy is the director of the Michigan State University Center
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  for Law Technology and Innovation, the author of the book, Successful
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  Innovation Outcomes and Law, and the founder of the Law Department Innovation
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  Library, found at www.ldilibrary.com.
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  He writes and speaks frequently on legal innovation and technology
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  topics focusing on law departments.
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  He has co-hosted the Kennedy Miguel Report podcast on legal technology with Tom
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  Miguel since 2006, and his new project is the Personal Strategy Compass Newsletter.
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  Hi, Dennis.
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  It's great having you here with me today.
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  I appreciate your background and all of the things that you've done
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  in the legal space, especially in the legal technology space.
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  Now, my understanding is you were one of the first lawyer , to establish
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  a website to start blogging.
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  Both of those things , what motivated you to do that and what
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  kind of, how does that tie into to the work that you're doing today?
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  You know, it is funny because I was one of the sort of small group
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  we think it's like about around 20 lawyers in law firms who probably had
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  a webpage of, we didn't glorify it with website back then, but in 19 90,
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  95 and, and also of the first group.
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  Of lawyer bloggers and I always tell a story that I had this
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  crazy idea in 1995 that it would be fun to go to the Windows 95.
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  This tells you what a techie per person I was at the time, the Windows 95
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  rollout, which was being broadcast in different theaters around the country.
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  So I was in St. Louis, so I went to this and it wasn't so much Windows 95, but
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  Bill Gates did this thing talking about.
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  The internet and how it was gonna be used in the future.
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  I had been following what was happening on the internet.
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  I was on America Online and, CompuServe and other things.
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  And I just kept thinking about it and when I drove home, I
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  could have stopped thinking about it and I missed my exit even.
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  And I decided I had missed.
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  The whole internet thing and that I thought it was gonna be as important as
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  the invention of the printing press, and I just thought I missed the whole thing.
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  So that weekend I put up a webpage and everything kind of flowed from that.
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  But it's, I think about this now, even in connection with AI that I
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  see communication as this platform.
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  Or I see computing is this platform for communication and collaboration
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  , and so that was the thing of going like, oh, I can get this information
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  from the internet, but I can also communicate through the internet.
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  And the idea of having sort of my own printing press with podcasting
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  like my own radio station.
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  You know, that sort of thing was the appealing part.
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  So there was a tech piece that, was underlying it.
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  But it was definitely the, like how do I take advantage of the
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  resources out there to keep learning?
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  And then how do I communicate, with my own platform,
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  I love that.
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  A lot of the work that we do, I think is along the same lines.
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  And my own, background is not, dissimilar.
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  I'm not a lawyer, but I remember around 90, 92 through 95, I
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  was at bulletin board services.
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  All over the place.
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  And for me, I was, 15, 16 years old and the appeal was that I could get hacked
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  video games, I could pirate video games.
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  And I remember seeing the first time I was on this bulletin board service called the
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  Truck Stop, the Grand Rapids Truck Stop, BBS and the 9,600 bond modem signing in.
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  And I remember seeing in all A-N-S-C-I characters.
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  Connect to the internet for the first time.
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  And I thought, what in the hell is this thing?
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  And it was expensive and I didn't have any money, so I didn't do it.
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  And then a couple years later, I got a book on HTML and CSS
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  and I did the same thing.
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  I started writing.
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  I. I started writing code, and I used Front Page and Dreamweaver
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  and at first and then scrap those 'cause they didn't work.
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  But it was this moment of oh my gosh, this thing is changing.
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  And then I got my, one of my first paying gigs was using Macromedia
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  flash and animating three on three basketball tournament figure.
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  Gus Mack was really, I think they're still around, but they were really
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  popular at the time as a three on three.
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  And I made a thousand dollars and someone included the cost of
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  the software and I thought, oh my gosh, this is changing my world.
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  I think you make a really good point about communication and then, I think
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  of it in terms of amplification.
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  Because before you could put up a sign, you could put up, your Yellow Pages ad.
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  But how did you tell people who you are, and I think that's such a big change.
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  And being able to communicate who you are is such an important part, for
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  the work that now we're tied into.
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  Because how do you choose a lawyer if you can't, if you
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  don't know who that person is?
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  So tell me about what you've seen in that space.
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  How are you seeing law firms better communicate their brand
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  and amplify who they are?
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  Using some of the tools that are coming out now..
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  You know, there's this thing that I think grew out of the blogging period a
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  lot that, that people who were sort of successful in a certain way were, I think
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  you could tie it to authenticity, right?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  So that you had some understanding of who they were, and what they
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  were doing matched that really well.
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  'cause we kind of moved from the individual blogs to the, oh, I call.
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  The law firms or corporate blogs, you lost some of that individuality,
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  and it became more information oriented which is not a bad thing
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  but, it is just a different thing.
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  But I had a friend who kind of resisted doing a webpage early on who's a lawyer,
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  and then he did the normal stuff.
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  But he was part, he had great d you know, the dogs, the big dogs, and there, it was
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  like a, there was a community he was part of and he would put the, like part of his
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  bio on his website, like talked about his Great Dane and Yeah, and had these other
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  things and he found that he was getting this interest in these clients and being
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  part of this community of Great Danes.
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  And it was like.
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  Generating know work, work for him that he would've never expected.
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  And their bloggers who did the same thing.
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  Like I, I was really committed to this sort of focused
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  approach on my subject matter.
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  But then I wrote about something else that I thought was different and I,
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  found this audience and then my practice changed and I was,
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  better fit what I was doing.
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  So I think you see s some of that.
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  And then also over time, I think now people have a better
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  sense of, the notion of target audience, who's my target audience?
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  Is there like an established audience that I want, who really is that audience?
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  In the future, if I'm able to grow what I'm doing or even change what I'm doing,
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  what would that audience look like and how would I prepare to move toward that?
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  So sometimes I will say like if you're doing elder law, for example is your
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  audience is the target audience that you wanna market to, is that really.
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  Like the elder clients?
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  'cause I think it's the children.
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  Uh, yeah, I totally think it's the children.
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  And I used to do estate planning early in my career and I would say my audience
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  for the sort of, what I would say high end estate planning is not necessarily.
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  Clients.
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  It's more like the life insurance people, the financial planners.
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  And if I put out if what I'm doing on the web provides resources,
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  information to them, I create community around them, then I become
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  one of the people that they refer to.
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  And it's really hard right these days to go out and say like, oh, I'm gonna find,
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  I'm just gonna grab a bunch of people who I don't know who are worth $10 million
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  and bring them in to do their wills when.
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  They're planning to be immortal, right?
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  They're, the last thing they're thinking about is doing their wills.
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  Yeah.
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  I think of it like, like that tip of the iceberg, and I found that,
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  I run a marketing company and, most of our clients have legal space.
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  And then in more regulated spaces and we do a variety of things.
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  But every time, every time I delve into a new industry I find that we start out
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  with this idea that the industry is.
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  Easy to understand and we get what's there and then we peel a layer back and we
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  discover that it is an entire ecosystem.
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  And existing within that ecosystem requires not just understanding the
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  purchaser, the buyer, but everything that surrounds it and supports it.
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  And it's one of the most, one of the most enjoyable things that found, working
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  in the personal injury space has been.
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  Getting to know all of the mechanisms that surround, not just the
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  practice, but every single case.
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  When it comes to what's happening with, on the financial side, what's
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  happening with medical records, what's happening across the marketing side.
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  And that's where I spend most of my time.
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  But I love going to those conferences because I get to meet and talk
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  to all of the vendors there.
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  And the vendors help me understand the ecosystem.
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  And the ecosystem is always deeper than we first think.
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  When we first.
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  Look at something.
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  And that's one of the reasons we try to keep our focus on legal.
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  We go into healthcare insurance and some other regulated industries,
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  but we try to keep a more narrow focus because you just can't learn
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  everything that there is to learn.
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  You touched on something that almost sounds like it's conflicting with
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  itself and then I don't think it is, but I'd love to hear you expound upon it.
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  So I think that.
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  Bringing an attorney's personality to their practice and to their
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  marketing is very important.
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  I think that it is also important to do your research and understand
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  your positioning and your audience and build personas.
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  How do you put those two things together?
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  And then I. Tie that into what you're seeing rollout with ai,
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  because I think in the same thing, people see AI as removing that human
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  element, and I don't agree with that.
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  I think it amplifies and it gives a vehicle for it.
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  But give me your thoughts on that.
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  How do you do both?
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  You know, there are a number techniques outside of law that, that I've always
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  learned from in this sort of innovation space and in, business building space.
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  And a lot of it, it really does depend on this the audience that
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  you're looking for, the personas of this audience, like you said, the un
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  understanding, the whole ecosystem.
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  I use those techniques and then I say, how do I fit?
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  What is it that I can bring to them and what part of that
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  ecosystem makes the most sense?
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  Now we're at the point in my classes where students are picking paper topics
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  and I just keep saying, narrow them.
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  Narrow them, narrow them.
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  'cause they're always surprised.
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  And these are AI topics like , even , what seems really narrow to them
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  start with, you know, of kind of grows and grows and grows, right?
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  So I think there's that.
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  So you have this notion that I need to sort of fit what my audience is, then I
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  think you, look and you say, well, that's not, is that a good fit for, what I am?
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  So students say sometimes they'll say oh, I'd like to do education law,
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  like I'd really like to help students.
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  And I'm like, okay great idea.
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  Like how do you make a living?
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  Who's gonna pay you?
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  And I say for better or worse, you'd have to think, understand that whole ecosystem
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  and where they need legal services.
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  Right.
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  And so you'd say, well, parents have money.
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  . Right.
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  Certain parents have, you know, wealthy parents have a lot of
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  money and they're committed to it.
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  You have the schools, you have like all these other things where you would
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  say, what is it that, that I might do?
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  I had some students and that before the whole name, image, and likeness thing
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  started, we're looking at ideas and what they realized early on was that.
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  The big sports agencies were gonna make all the money.
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  And if you were like a prominent college athlete, it was crazy to go to your
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  friend or some like small lawyer to do this when you had these sports agencies
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  who could do everything for you, right?
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  And so they looked at it and they looked at what they did and
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  they came up with ideas to do in the class to do things like.
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  I will offer education and representation services to Div two and Div three
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  schools as they try to figure out what to do for their athletes.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  There's another one who said, I'm just gonna help again, looking at, the sort
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  of div two, div three area, certain sports people who did summer camps
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  and there's like a whole set of legal services around that and, you could
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  build a business plan around that.
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  And I think by refining those things you become closer to your own personality.
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  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  So if you say to use the NIL thing, if you say, yeah, I was a Div two.
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  Softball player.
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  Quite good, right?
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  Uh, poor, poor as could be.
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  Never, you know, I was lucky to get somebody, have somebody buy me lunch and
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  it was probably, you know, I might not have even been allowed to take the lunch.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, and you say, but afterwards, I wanted to stay involved and
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  I can't get a coaching job and I don't have the time for that.
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  But I do these summer camp things and if that's your persona as a lawyer.
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  Then that's tremendously appealable.
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  If you can get that message out as opposed to saying like, I'm driving on the highway
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  and I see these billboards for these people who get million dollar settlements
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  or whatever it is that they're doing, and, but I just need help with some basic.
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  Contracts for a softball summer camp.
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  And so I think there is, that sort of comes from the understanding of
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  what the market is, what the audience is, what you're trying to do, and
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  then trying to match that better.
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  To what it is that you do.
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  So I left estate planning and tax work because I just wanted to get involved
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  with the internet and technology and that's what grew my career.
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  And so at Key Points I just kept saying is this is what, is my work pulling closer
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  and closer to my hobby and my interest?
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  Can I make those match?
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  And that's, you know, my friend with the Great Danes.
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  It's not that he did Great Dane Law although I'm sure Right, right.
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  I'm sure he would've figured out a way to do, but, but, but it's lawyers from
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  law school honor are advised, oh, don't show your personality, don't show your
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  politics, don't show your religion.
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  Don't show anything.
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  And then there are people who say well no, there's like this whole audience of Yeah.
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  People who are like me.
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  And it's not necessarily a bad thing, I'm just saying yes to one set of things.
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  Yeah.
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  And maybe I'm shutting something off, but maybe I'm not right.
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  It's not like saying that if you're saying like, oh, if I say I'm a
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  Great Dane person, then the toy poodle people will never hire me.
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  They probably see you as A dog person.
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  A dog person, yeah.
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  Or a good person, yep.
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  Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
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  I think that taking a strong position is almost always
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  better than taking none at all.
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  Engaging people is important and you don't engage people by just being milk toast.
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  You engage people by saying, here's a position that I believe in.
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  And when it's authentic.
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  I think that goes far.
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  I think people see that you're willing to stand up for what you believe
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  in, and I think that's a good thing.
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  I think we need more of that.
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  You spoke earlier about, you know, kind of how the corporate law, the
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  content kind of took off and I've seen that, and oftentimes it's to
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  try to game, you know, Google search.
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  And so much of that personality has been lost.
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  But to your point, I've seen in, there's in, I think down in
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  Texas, there's a chicken lawyer.
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  He always posts on his website about his chickens and his farm, and people
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  I. You have flocked to that, right?
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  On unintended.
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  I didn't mean to do that.
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  But people identify with that because it's the human element.
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  And I think that as we see AI continue to be embraced, on the marketing side,
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  but also on the practice side, people will be drawn towards the human side.
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  Because we're humans and ultimately it's a human making the decision.
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  So we could use all the tools that we have.
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  If we don't show our humanity in that process, then I think that will change.
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  Do you see, this is kind of a side point, but do you see the name, image likeness?
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  That just seems like an area that will explode now with things like,
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  Hey, Jen 11 Labs, where we can replicate voice, we can replicate.
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  Even video.
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  Do you see that area of law just starting to explode in the near future?
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  I.
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  Yeah.
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  So in my AI class and I talk about intellectual property in
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  ai, , you know, the four traditional intellectual properties, you know?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Patent and trademark, copyright trade secrets.
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  And I spend a lot of the class time talking about what I call these quasi IP
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  rights and these newly developing rights.
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  Yep.
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  And I had AI help me this year and there's like 25 rights that feel things that feel
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  like they could be rights that don't fit.
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  Yeah.
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  The four traditional categories.
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  Yeah.
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  Some of those categories were created, hundreds of years ago.
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  Yeah.
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  Name, image, likeness is something where you feel this seems like
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  something that should be protectable.
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  Right.
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  Yeah.
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  In some way.
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  Uh, but I don't know what, how to categorize that, like
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  how do we categorize it?
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  How does it fit?
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  It definitely feels that you don't want to have something where, people are
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  making more money off of you than you are.
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  Right, right, right.
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  Yeah.
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  And you know, I've had an, I've had an engagement in the soccer
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  world where very young people, very talented young people have.
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  Already started to recognize the need to impor to protect that.
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  Some rising stars in the soccer world are saying, Hey, I don't want someone
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  else to use my name, to use my likeness.
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  And that, that seems to be like, that conversation is buzzing around right now.
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  So it's interesting to hear.
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  Yeah.
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  And , if you go into the.
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  To the legal world, then somebody would say okay, so you have, you're
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  a young soccer player and you're worried about name imaging likeness.
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  The, is there, is that something you trademark?
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  You know, probably not.
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  Right, right.
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  Is there something you can patent?
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  No, there's no invention there.
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  Right.
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  Is there something you can copyright?
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  No, that's, that's something different too.
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  Trade secret.
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  No, I mean like, it doesn't even apply.
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  Right?
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  Right.
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  So you say, well, what is the law and the basis and are we in some sort of like on.
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  You know, uncharted, unfair, un unjust enrichment.
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  Yeah.
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  Kind of theory.
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  Some kind of misappropriation, but what is it?
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  And we're sort of waiting to say, what would be the guidance on that?
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  And where would we draw that from?
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  And it's gonna be different in the US than in other countries.
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  It's gonna be different in one state than mm-hmm.
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  Than others.
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  'cause it's probably, you're gonna have more protection in California
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  because of the Hollywood culture.
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  Right.
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  Um, and, so I think we're in this sort of period of transition where
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  almost everything that we look at.
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  Raises a bunch of issues and we're looking at a very old
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  set of laws, from another time.
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  Even if it's only 15 years ago, it feels like another time, right?
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  And I would say that name image likeness is the classic example of something.
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  That is valuable, in the same way, like domain names don't quite
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  fit, but they're very valuable.
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  They're not exactly trademarks obviously, if you're an
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  influencer, my audience has value.
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  It'd be nice to figure out how I protect that so it doesn't
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  get siphoned away for me.
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  The copyright off is sort of saying that if I create something
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  from ai, I can't copyright it.
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  Right.
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  But that certainly feels, it doesn't feel like if I do a whole
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  bunch of prompting and create something that's very cool, right.
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  That somebody else can just use it.
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  So I think we're, I think there's a lot happening there that
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  we're trying to work through.
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  I think.
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  That name, image and likeness might not be like a bad peg to hang it on
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  because yeah, we can kind of understand it and there's something that does
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  feel unfair If I say I'm going to,
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  take something that feels where people think it's you or it comes from you.
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  But some of it is tricky because I would also like to say what if I could do
• 20:28
  something where I create this ai persona and I give it chips characteristics
• 20:35
  in his opinions and stuff like that.
• 20:36
  And then anytime I want, instead of.
• 20:39
  Paying chip, I just ask my AI and I get similar.
• 20:43
  Not as good, right?
• 20:44
  Not as tailored advice or somebody does that with me, right?
• 20:48
  And it doesn't feel fair, but it's, is how different is it than
• 20:53
  saying oh I've written something.
• 20:57
  Say to the, prompt eight.
• 20:58
  I say, assume that you're Aristotle and you're well versed
• 21:02
  on your principles of rhetoric.
• 21:04
  Now analyze what I've written and suggest improvements for me.
• 21:09
  Um, that feels okay.
• 21:11
  But if I'm living, it doesn't feel so.
• 21:14
  Okay.
• 21:15
  Well, that's a perfect setup for the next question I was gonna ask, which
• 21:19
  is, you've got a wonderful reputation.
• 21:21
  You've got a legacy around being someone who is very active and has a lot of
• 21:26
  foresight in the technology space.
• 21:28
  So what kind of legacy do you wanna leave around in the world of technology
• 21:31
  and in legal technology specifically?
• 21:33
  And what's some advice that you would give to the generation that's coming up?
• 21:37
  And I'm, and I know you're doing this every day, but just to sum up
• 21:40
  for the folks listening to this.
• 21:42
  What advice would you give them and what legacy would you like to
• 21:44
  leave in the legal technology world?
• 21:47
  This is an interesting question because at this point, I've promised my wife and
• 21:51
  my daughter that I am actually two years away from really retiring this time.
• 21:56
  At least from full-time employment.
• 21:58
  Yeah.
• 21:59
  And then just going on to do my own thing.
• 22:00
  So I'm working with a retirement coach, and that's one of our projects
• 22:04
  for this year is the legacy thing.
• 22:07
  So I think that for me, I've created this body of work and an approach.
• 22:13
  And I've mentored people.
• 22:15
  And so I think the legacy comes from that.
• 22:17
  So there is a body of work, there are approaches, there
• 22:20
  are methods that I've done.
• 22:22
  There's a lot of content I've created.
• 22:24
  And there's impact I've had on people that I think is part of that legacy.
• 22:30
  And then turning it into something that continues to be usable.
• 22:35
  'cause my whole approach is practical.
• 22:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:40
  So, yeah, it's great.
• 22:41
  People can talk about the theory of AI and like these details.
• 22:44
  I'm like, how do I use this?
• 22:46
  Like how do I use this to help me and help others?
• 22:49
  Yeah.
• 22:49
  And in a practical way.
• 22:51
  And so I'm looking to say what could I do that extends where I'm able to do
• 22:58
  those kinds of things because it's hard.
• 23:02
  You almost have to have frameworks these days.
• 23:04
  This was telling my students this week I said, we're right now Legal Tech hub.
• 23:10
  Just came out with a chart that shows the number of legal tech
• 23:16
  companies who say that they have.
• 23:19
  Generative AI products.
• 23:21
  Okay.
• 23:22
  505. So two weeks ago they came out with chart, they had 400 and
• 23:27
  people complained 'cause they missed so many, so now 505, right?
• 23:31
  So what do we do?
• 23:34
  What do you do about that?
• 23:34
  So I, my initial reaction is if you gimme 505 choices, that's the
• 23:39
  same as giving me zero choices.
• 23:41
  Right?
• 23:42
  Right.
• 23:42
  Um, and so that's one thing.
• 23:45
  So how in this world do I come off with a framework and then
• 23:49
  also the accelerating pace?
• 23:52
  So what I also said to my class on Wednesday is that the releases of
• 24:00
  more advanced versions of ais in the last two, two and a half days mm-hmm.
• 24:06
  Have completely changed my thinking.
• 24:08
  About AI and what it's now able to do.
• 24:12
  And that's unexpected.
• 24:15
  But I would also say what happened three months ago changed my thinking.
• 24:19
  And when you have conversations about this stuff, how do you keep up?
• 24:23
  So I think part of my legacy will we, trying to figure out what
• 24:25
  are the frameworks that we really need to make decisions about this.
• 24:30
  And where will our comfort levels be?
• 24:32
  Where will our client's comfort levels be?
• 24:35
  How do we understand how we might want to go forward?
• 24:39
  And ai has been through its ups and downs over the years, but I still,
• 24:43
  right now, it feels very similar to the beginning of the internet to me.
• 24:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:47
  The vibe out there.
• 24:49
  So we could be wrong.
• 24:50
  could be an over promise thing.
• 24:52
  But there's a lot happening that feels really solid.
• 24:56
  And so , I think the question becomes, so even if I'm hesitant,
• 25:02
  what are the things I need to do?
• 25:03
  How do I need to think about this?
• 25:05
  And I don't feel as one as a lawyer I talked to a while back.
• 25:12
  I asked, what are you doing with AI these days?
• 25:14
  And they said, I figure I have eight years till I retire.
• 25:17
  I'm gonna sit this one out.
• 25:19
  And I don't think I, I tell my students that they groaned.
• 25:23
  Right.
• 25:23
  Because that's.
• 25:24
  Someone who could be employing them.
• 25:26
  So I think the legacy will be, can I develop some frameworks mm-hmm.
• 25:31
  To help people think through this stuff?
• 25:32
  And then can I take some of the things I've learned and apply
• 25:36
  them in some different ways?
• 25:38
  So there'll be an education mentoring component there.
• 25:41
  Continue to write content.
• 25:43
  People will say like, no, no, you can't retire.
• 25:46
  You have so much to give.
• 25:47
  Like my friends will tell me that and I'll be like, I'm just
• 25:49
  talking about like not working.
• 25:51
  You know, like every day I'm Yeah.
• 25:54
  And doing my own thing, like that's retirement.
• 25:57
  You know, it's not like I'm just like shutting down, you know?
• 25:59
  Right, right.
• 26:00
  No, I, I
• 26:01
  think it, it makes sense to me.
• 26:03
  I think that the act and the art of creation is one of the highest and best
• 26:07
  things that we can do, in our lives.
• 26:10
  And I think that.
• 26:11
  You can retire and continue to do that.
• 26:12
  I think that the frameworks that you've talked about is such a foundational
• 26:15
  part of utilization of AI and making it do the things that we want it to do.
• 26:20
  I know that we've spent a lot of time talking through how
• 26:23
  we build those so that we can.
• 26:25
  Again, in increase our influence, and I think that the creative
• 26:29
  work that you're doing is you have an incredible body of work.
• 26:32
  I appreciate your time coming out here and talking with me, and I look forward
• 26:36
  to seeing what you come up with next.
• 26:37
  I loved your answer.
• 26:38
  That resonated a lot with me.
• 26:39
  I think a lot about purpose, in the work that we do which takes a couple of steps.
• 26:43
  I run a marketing company.
• 26:44
  So thinking about what is that purpose, and what you just
• 26:47
  laid out there is, I think is beautiful and is a great takeaway.
• 26:50
  So I appreciate you spending the time with me.
• 26:52
  It's always great to see you.
• 26:54
  So thank you so much Dennis.
• 26:55
  this has been a great conversation.
• 26:57
  Oh, it's, yeah, it's great.
• 26:58
  And if, uh, next time I get up to, uh, grand Rapids, we'll have to.
• 27:03
  To get together.
• 27:04
  Oh, please let me know.
• 27:05
  I'd love to, I'd love to take you out to lunch, grab dinner.
• 27:07
  This has been really valuable, so thank you so much.
• 27:10
  All right.
• 27:11
  Cool.
• 27:12
  Thank you.
• 27:14
  A big thank you to Dennis for joining us today.
• 27:16
  You can find Dennis on LinkedIn or check out the Kennedy Miguel Report
• 27:19
  podcast on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
• 27:22
  Legal Marketing Radio is a production of LaFleur Marketing.
• 27:25
  Find us at LaFleur.Marketing and on LinkedIn, facebook, and Instagram.