Latest / Lean Out Podcast / Calling with Sanj Katyal

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Calling with Sanj Katyal · Lean Out Podcast

• 0:01
  =Welcome to the lean out podcast.
• 0:03
  I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:04
  Don baker.
• 0:05
  Are you looking for a new approach to finding authentic and sustainable work-life balance?
• 0:10
  You've come to the right.
• 0:11
  Place.
• 0:11
  For inspiration.
• 0:12
  information.
• 0:13
  and a community.
• 0:14
  community.
• 0:14
  of like-minded.
• 0:15
  Professionals.
• 0:16
  Let's get to the show.
• 0:24
  Hello.
• 0:24
  Hello.
• 0:25
  Thanks for being here.
• 0:27
  Slowly, our snow is melting away on our homestead and we're beginning to see signs of spring.
• 0:33
  When I was at the revitalized physician renewal retreat recently, which I discussed in the episode right before this, one of the speakers asked the attendees to contemplate what is timeless.
• 0:46
  It's a great question to inspire the practice of mindfulness.
• 0:50
  Go about your daily life, your daily activities, and the things that you regularly encounter and think what of these is timeless in terms of things.
• 0:59
  I see the changing of the seasons is always timeless.
• 1:03
  Living in a wilderness environment, I'm keenly aware of the subtle changes as each month passes.
• 1:10
  What do you notice either inside or outside?
• 1:12
  Okay, think about it now and try thinking about this question and the deeper question of what is timeless.
• 1:20
  If you would like help in establishing a regular mindfulness routine.
• 1:24
  I have an entire module in my new Lean out confidence course dedicated to working on your mental fitness.
• 1:30
  I give you practical tips on how to be more mindful, but I also go deep on what it means to have mental agility, to be able to question your own thoughts and more.
• 1:40
  I still have a coupon code available for the course.
• 1:43
  If you type confident with a T upon purchase, you will receive the course for only$97.
• 1:50
  There are also options to obtain CME and discounted coaching.
• 1:55
  Go check it out now@practicebalance.com slash courses.
• 2:00
  My guest today is Dr.
• 2:02
  San Catel.
• 2:03
  Sange, studied as an engineer and then went to medical school and became a radiologist.
• 2:08
  After achieving many outward metrics of success in his field, leading radiologists in a large startup group, San turned his focus toward understanding wellbeing, positive psychology, and harnessing the power of the subconscious mind.
• 2:23
  Today he blends his time working as a radiologist with working with adolescents, young adults, and families to overcome their mental barriers.
• 2:32
  He also teaches at a local college and has written a book called Positive Psychology, ancient and Modern Wisdom to Create a Flourishing Life.
• 2:42
  In this episode, we discuss how Sanj splits his time between radiology and wellness work, which looks like speaking and practicing rapid transformation therapy, which we go into the details of.
• 2:54
  We discuss the ups and downs of finding your calling when it's not exactly what you happen to have studied or be doing for work.
• 3:01
  And we also have some bonus discussion about raising kids and screens since many of Sanja clients are teens, young adults, and families.
• 3:11
  I apologize in advance that the audio on this recording is definitely not up to my typical standards.
• 3:18
  It turned out that our two voices had quite different volumes when I listened to the recording and I did what I could to optimize it.
• 3:26
  But what that means is that I couldn't publish the integrated conversation on YouTube, and there are a few dropped words, but don't worry, it's still very listenable.
• 3:36
  I hope you enjoy my conversation with Sanj.
• 3:41
  SJ-Dawn: San Cat, welcome to the Lean Out Podcast.
• 3:45
  SJ-Dawn: How are you doing today?
• 3:46
  SJ-Sanj: I'm doing great.
• 3:47
  SJ-Sanj: Thanks for having me.
• 3:48
  SJ-Dawn: Absolutely.
• 3:49
  SJ-Dawn: So I was reading your bio and I was interested to find that we both have this background in the way back machine of chemical engineering, and then you ended up going into radiology and now you're doing some unique things.
• 4:03
  SJ-Dawn: So tell us about your current work-life balance and how it's different from other physicians or radiologists.
• 4:11
  SJ-Sanj: Sure.
• 4:12
  SJ-Sanj: So, yeah, took a long.
• 4:14
  SJ-Sanj: Hard road to medicine like you did.
• 4:16
  SJ-Sanj: And, uh, I really enjoy radiology.
• 4:19
  SJ-Sanj: I was, uh, in charge of a large radiology startup, managing about a hundred radiologists for about a decade, and probably around 2010 or 11.
• 4:28
  SJ-Sanj: I, you know, I visit a lot of different hospitals in different states and meet with, you know, CMOs and other physician leaders.
• 4:36
  SJ-Sanj: I began noticing, you know, a really.
• 4:39
  SJ-Sanj: Really a growing discontent.
• 4:40
  SJ-Sanj: It didn't matter what specialty or what state they were in, they, um, there just seemed to be a growing unhappiness.
• 4:48
  SJ-Sanj: And, uh, I remember driving home from one of those meetings thinking about my own life and, and, you know, I was wondering why I wasn't happy or, but, you know, I wasn't unhappy, but it was like everything pretty much had worked out exactly the way I'd wanted it to.
• 5:05
  SJ-Sanj: And I began to wonder and kind of worry a little bit if I couldn't figure out how to get more joy and feel more fulfillment when things were really this good, how was I ever gonna deal with adversity when I knew it would inevitably come.
• 5:20
  SJ-Sanj: Um, so that kind of led me on a path to, to investigate principles of wellbeing.
• 5:26
  SJ-Sanj: I became certified in positive psychology or what some people call the science of happiness.
• 5:32
  SJ-Sanj: And, um.
• 5:34
  SJ-Sanj: And I spent the last, you know, probably eight years in, in physician wellbeing space, uh, working with physicians, lecturing, um, and, uh, it's been very rewarding.
• 5:46
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, but the, the thing that really kind of dawned on me a few years ago was I was all hitting up a, against a wall.
• 5:54
  SJ-Sanj: There was a limit to the progress we could make.
• 5:57
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, and people seemed to kind of default to their default state.
• 6:01
  SJ-Sanj: That led me more to investigate the, the mind and, and some of the things that I'm, I'm doing currently.
• 6:08
  SJ-Dawn: So expand on that a little bit.
• 6:10
  SJ-Dawn: What kind of work are you currently doing and who are you primarily doing it with?
• 6:16
  SJ-Sanj: Sure.
• 6:16
  SJ-Sanj: There will always be some limit to progress made.
• 6:21
  SJ-Sanj: And I'm including myself in this because, you know, everything starts kind of from personal experience.
• 6:26
  SJ-Sanj: Um, it, it was hard to kind of get past some deeply ingrained habits and viewpoints, um, that seemed to be, keeping me and other people stuck, uh, in patterns that, know, didn't really serve us.
• 6:41
  SJ-Sanj: And, um, I remember talking to my wife, she's a mental health therapist that works with kids.
• 6:48
  SJ-Sanj: About this.
• 6:48
  SJ-Sanj: And she gave me this book called Tell Yourself A Better Lie, which was, uh, written by Marissa Pier, who's like a world famous therapist in, in England.
• 6:57
  SJ-Sanj: And she's like, my wife's like, you know, you'll love this.
• 7:00
  SJ-Sanj: You, you like reading about the mind.
• 7:02
  SJ-Sanj: And it was really the first glimpse of what the problem was with, with not only myself, but with the physicians that I had worked with.
• 7:11
  SJ-Sanj: And, and the problem is that the.
• 7:13
  SJ-Sanj: We have deeply ingrained patterns that are at a subconscious level below, below our level of awareness that are really formed from childhood experiences.
• 7:22
  SJ-Sanj: And, and this kind of programming or conditioning really drives the vast majority of our thoughts and behaviors.
• 7:30
  SJ-Sanj: And so that's, uh, kind of what led me to investigate this more and, uh, become certified in, in approach called rapid transformational therapy, which is able to access this level.
• 7:42
  SJ-Sanj: I.
• 7:43
  SJ-Sanj: And really it's one of the few things that can access and dismantle some of these faulty beliefs are deeply ingrained in all of us.
• 7:53
  SJ-Dawn: And you're practicing this modality.
• 7:55
  SJ-Dawn: With kids or adults or both.
• 7:59
  SJ-Sanj: Both, uh, you know, there's a growing, as I'm sure everybody in your audience knows, growing youth mental health epidemic.
• 8:06
  SJ-Sanj: Um, I've, you know, when I work with parents and physician parents.
• 8:11
  SJ-Sanj: There, there's a common thread among, among worrying about their kids, this generation, especially around screens and screened addictions.
• 8:19
  SJ-Sanj: And so I've done a lot of work on screens, um, best practices, common, techniques and strategies for parents to use and, and for kids, kids themselves realize there's an issue.
• 8:31
  SJ-Sanj: Um, and there's, there's a growing.
• 8:34
  SJ-Sanj: Movement within the, uh, gen Z community of anti-technology, anti-social media and stuff like that.
• 8:43
  SJ-Sanj: So, you know, there is awareness, but it's, it's still really, really, in its infancy.
• 8:48
  SJ-Sanj: So yeah, I work with, I work with primarily kids, young adults and, parents and families.
• 8:56
  SJ-Dawn: It's interesting that you bring that up because I gave a talk at a very large conference on social media and how it detracts from our work-life balance and our happiness, and it was also about how to find ways that you can coexist with social media and not go crazy.
• 9:14
  SJ-Dawn: And one of the.
• 9:15
  SJ-Dawn: Statistics that I shared and that I learned when preparing for that was that in the past when new technologies have come into play and generations have been taken up by that technology, there was always this pushback of like, well, you know, this is gonna ruin.
• 9:38
  SJ-Dawn: Like rock music or the computer or the internet or whatever it is that are now ubiquitous in our society.
• 9:44
  SJ-Dawn: And, um, the younger generation, it was just like, oh yeah, whatever, you know, we're fine.
• 9:51
  SJ-Dawn: And this is the first phenomenon like that, the technology that's come into play where the youngest generation is actually admitting that it is problematic for them that they say, I need help with this.
• 10:04
  SJ-Dawn: This is causing me to have anxiety or, you know, this isn't enhancing my life and I need to figure out a way to, to deal with it.
• 10:11
  SJ-Dawn: And so, yes, it's very different now.
• 10:14
  SJ-Dawn: There's something different that is just making it so much harder.
• 10:17
  SJ-Dawn: And I'm really glad you're doing this work I'd like to know.
• 10:20
  SJ-Dawn: What your days look like.
• 10:22
  SJ-Dawn: What does a typical week look like for you?
• 10:24
  SJ-Dawn: Because I know that you also still practice radiology on a part-time basis, so what kind of different hats are you wearing on a different daily basis?
• 10:32
  SJ-Dawn: I.
• 10:33
  SJ-Sanj: Sure.
• 10:33
  SJ-Sanj: Just a, a quick comment to what you just said is, that's definitely true about the younger generation noticing and there's a problem.
• 10:41
  SJ-Sanj: I think that the difference between social media and every past new technology is, or, or two, there's two things.
• 10:48
  SJ-Sanj: One is.
• 10:49
  SJ-Sanj: It was intentionally designed to be addictive.
• 10:52
  SJ-Sanj: They used behavioral psychologists and embedded principles of clear addiction within these apps.
• 10:58
  SJ-Sanj: You know, streaks, likes forward facing cameras, filters, all that stuff.
• 11:03
  SJ-Sanj: And then second, the portable nature of it.
• 11:05
  SJ-Sanj: You know, you could turn a TV off and then go about your life, or even leave your laptop with the internet and go about your life.
• 11:12
  SJ-Sanj: Nobody goes about their life without their phones.
• 11:15
  SJ-Sanj: So.
• 11:15
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah, it feels actually really wrong if you don't have your phone.
• 11:18
  SJ-Dawn: It's like, where's my phone?
• 11:19
  SJ-Dawn: I lost my phone yesterday and it was in the pocket of my purse where I never put it, and I'm just like thinking.
• 11:25
  SJ-Dawn: Where did it go?
• 11:26
  SJ-Dawn: What am I gonna do?
• 11:27
  SJ-Dawn: Am I gonna have to go back to the neighbor's house?
• 11:28
  SJ-Dawn: Where was it?
• 11:29
  SJ-Dawn: Is it in the grocery store?
• 11:30
  SJ-Dawn: I was like freaking out about this.
• 11:32
  SJ-Dawn: It's crazy.
• 11:33
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah, so that's, it's a, it's a different animal for sure.
• 11:37
  SJ-Sanj: Um, regarding my days and weeks, um, yeah, I still practice radiology.
• 11:43
  SJ-Sanj: I still like it.
• 11:44
  SJ-Sanj: I think, you know, I think part-time work for a lot of physicians that are maybe, discontent with, with their practice, I think is a really good way to still, still feel, um.
• 11:56
  SJ-Sanj: You know, fulfilled in the practice of medicine, still do what they're trained to do, uh, without some of the, long hours and, weariness of full-time practice.
• 12:06
  SJ-Sanj: And then the other part of it, I, I do stuff that's I feel like I'm called to do and interested in doing, and, and that's working in, uh, both the physician wellbeing space and then, uh, with, with kids and young adults.
• 12:19
  SJ-Sanj: Usually it's a week at a time where I'll, I'll be doing radiology, um, just'cause the groups I work with, private practice groups, um, and that's how they schedule.
• 12:28
  SJ-Sanj: And then the, the off weeks, I'll do combination of writing plus, sessions with people.
• 12:36
  SJ-Sanj: So, and I'll schedule, uh, lectures where I, I give a lot of lectures to schools and stuff like that around screens so it's a good, uh, it's a good balance for me.
• 12:47
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah, that sounds great.
• 12:48
  SJ-Dawn: And it sounds really similar to the kind of schedule that I keep, and I know that.
• 12:54
  SJ-Dawn: Someone is probably out there listening and thinking, what does he mean by working in the physician wellness space?
• 13:00
  SJ-Dawn: Because a lot of people are interested in getting into this area.
• 13:04
  SJ-Dawn: So what kind of things are you doing in that realm?
• 13:09
  SJ-Sanj: Well, a lot of it was initially just, uh.
• 13:12
  SJ-Sanj: Giving lectures at state societies and national societies.
• 13:16
  SJ-Sanj: Um, I, uh, co-founded a course called ThriveRx with a, uh, she's now a psychiatry fellow in Mount Sinai, uh, who's also a positive psychologist, uh, trained person, Jordan Feingold and Fine Gold.
• 13:31
  SJ-Sanj: And so we ran, we ran a few classes together, and then people just reach out to me, uh, basically randomly.
• 13:37
  SJ-Sanj: I don't really solicit, uh, you know, uh, so people will reach out to me, I'll talk to'em, and if it sounds like it's a good fit and I can, you know, offer some assistance, we will just start kind of working together informally.
• 13:50
  SJ-Sanj: So it's really very much, a passion of mine and, and just kind of a, um, informal practice.
• 13:57
  SJ-Sanj: So I don't have a.
• 13:59
  SJ-Sanj: I don't have a formal, uh, six month or 12 month coaching program that I offer.
• 14:03
  SJ-Sanj: It's however people, uh, wanna work is fine with me, so,
• 14:09
  SJ-Dawn: it sounds great.
• 14:10
  SJ-Dawn: And I like your combination of the passion things that you're doing for work.
• 14:16
  SJ-Dawn: Um, sometimes we call them free work, uh, but it benefits you as well.
• 14:20
  SJ-Dawn: And we were talking about that before we started recording and then doing.
• 14:24
  SJ-Dawn: The radiology on a part-time basis.
• 14:27
  SJ-Dawn: I feel the same way.
• 14:28
  SJ-Dawn: I'm a big, big proponent of getting people to find ways that they can peel back a little bit of time and have either some more downtime in their days or more time that they can pursue something that they're passionate about so that they can get that whole big picture of fulfillment.
• 14:45
  SJ-Dawn: Because, uh, when you're just.
• 14:47
  SJ-Dawn: Focusing on the one thing, and I know we have to have physicians working, but, you know, you also have to take care of yourself.
• 14:54
  SJ-Dawn: You're not gonna necessarily be an effective person, a practitioner, a proceduralist or caregiver to patients.
• 15:03
  SJ-Dawn: If you're working super hard, burnt out, if you don't feel happiness and fulfillment.
• 15:09
  SJ-Sanj: Absolutely.
• 15:10
  SJ-Sanj: I think most people, not just physicians, most people work more than they really need to.
• 15:15
  SJ-Sanj: And they have this, there's this race of accumulation and accumulation.
• 15:19
  SJ-Sanj: And the whole, I'll be happy when syndrome, you know, it's a total fallacy and uh, and I think more and more physicians are realizing it.
• 15:28
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SJ-Dawn: So it sounds like from the way that you described your trajectory that you were working in radiology, you had this busy startup, and then you had a realization about physician wellness and you started investigating work there.
• 15:44
  SJ-Dawn: What led you to.
• 15:46
  SJ-Dawn: Go down the specific path of positive psychology and rapid transformation therapy.
• 15:51
  SJ-Dawn: What about it drew you to that area?
• 15:55
  SJ-Sanj: I mean, positive psychology.
• 15:56
  SJ-Sanj: I think it's kind of like two levels.
• 15:58
  SJ-Sanj: I look at it positive psychology is at the, very much the conscious thinking mind level.
• 16:02
  SJ-Sanj: Like, okay, there are.
• 16:04
  SJ-Sanj: There are intentional things that I can do.
• 16:06
  SJ-Sanj: They call'em happiness boosters In positive psychology.
• 16:09
  SJ-Sanj: There are things that I can do that I know I find happiness or pleasure in.
• 16:14
  SJ-Sanj: Um, kayaking.
• 16:15
  SJ-Sanj: We were talking about that before, is one of mine.
• 16:18
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, I like hiking.
• 16:19
  SJ-Sanj: I like writing, uh, a lot.
• 16:21
  SJ-Sanj: So those are things that, and it's been proven that if you can sprinkle happiness boosters throughout your week or throughout your day.
• 16:28
  SJ-Sanj: You're gonna have sustained improvements in wellbeing that's there, there's no question about that.
• 16:32
  SJ-Sanj: Those are the things from positive psychology.
• 16:35
  SJ-Sanj: I, I like the evidence-based approach of positive psychology.
• 16:39
  SJ-Sanj: Where they actually do causal studies and show that, uh, a, B and C actually drives, uh, happiness levels.
• 16:47
  SJ-Sanj: The limit is that.
• 16:48
  SJ-Sanj: A lot of people default to their defaults.
• 16:51
  SJ-Sanj: And it's hard to get past that, and that's because 95% of our thoughts and behaviors are really run by our subconscious mind, not our conscious thinking mind.
• 17:01
  SJ-Sanj: This is why you can't really think yourself out of anxiety, or you can't think yourself into fulfillment.
• 17:07
  SJ-Sanj: Um, it's a, it's a deeper level and, and physicians, uh, you know, they suffer from, we all suffer from basically one of three limiting beliefs.
• 17:16
  SJ-Sanj: One is, I'm not enough.
• 17:18
  SJ-Sanj: I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, pretty enough, thin enough, wealthy enough, whatever.
• 17:25
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, and that's the big thing for our imposter syndrome.
• 17:27
  SJ-Sanj: Very common in physicians, right?
• 17:29
  SJ-Sanj: I'm not enough and I have to keep proving myself over and over again.
• 17:34
  SJ-Sanj: To, people that, ultimately probably don't even matter, you know?
• 17:37
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, so, and then the other big one that I see in physicians is what I want isn't available to me.
• 17:44
  SJ-Sanj: You know, so the, the, the job that I want isn't available, so I'm just gonna put my head down, suck it up, and hope I can retire in five or 10 years And the third common limiting belief is I'm different and can't connect with others.
• 17:57
  SJ-Sanj: And this was a big one for me, growing up as the only Indian kid in an all white, school.
• 18:03
  SJ-Sanj: Um, and so I formed that about myself and it's only when you kind of explore these at a subconscious level that you can really, um, effectively understand'em and dismantle'em, and then you're, you're kind of become free naturally by the understanding of them.
• 18:21
  SJ-Dawn: Thank you for summarizing those three points.
• 18:23
  SJ-Dawn: I have found these as well to ring.
• 18:25
  SJ-Dawn: Very true.
• 18:26
  SJ-Dawn: And when you say dismantle them on a subconscious level, what kind of work are you talking about doing?
• 18:32
  SJ-Dawn: What does that involve?
• 18:34
  SJ-Sanj: So rapid transformational therapy or RTT is basically, it can solve most of the.
• 18:40
  SJ-Sanj: Issues in one to three sessions.
• 18:42
  SJ-Sanj: That's why it's called Rapid.
• 18:44
  SJ-Sanj: And typically a session is you'll, you know, somebody will come, like I had just had a 30-year-old come, come to me, uh, last week we did a session.
• 18:52
  SJ-Sanj: He has confidence issues and anxiety, social anxiety and, and stuff like that.
• 18:57
  SJ-Sanj: And so I.
• 18:58
  SJ-Sanj: In our session, what we'll do is we'll go back.
• 19:01
  SJ-Sanj: It's a kind of a guided hypnosis, so it's a, it's a relaxed state of heightened suggestibility.
• 19:07
  SJ-Sanj: It's the same state you fall into when you're just about to go to sleep or upon waking.
• 19:12
  SJ-Sanj: First thing, you're kind of groggy, but your thinking mind isn't really on yet.
• 19:16
  SJ-Sanj: It's just basically getting into that theta wave brainwave pattern.
• 19:21
  SJ-Sanj: And so it's pretty, it's pretty simple.
• 19:24
  SJ-Sanj: You can do it in like two minutes.
• 19:26
  SJ-Sanj: Then once you're in that state, you can take'em back to a few childhood experiences that are, that their model will automatically go back to that are, IM impactful to them.
• 19:36
  SJ-Sanj: And then you can see and, and you can show them and they then actually tell me, yeah, I see how this experience led to this belief.
• 19:45
  SJ-Sanj: And it's all about beliefs.
• 19:47
  SJ-Sanj: It's all about just limiting beliefs.
• 19:49
  SJ-Sanj: How were they formed?
• 19:50
  SJ-Sanj: Once you know how they're formed, it's about installing new, more effective ones.
• 19:55
  SJ-Sanj: And so then you give'em a, a personalized recording that's about 15 minutes long, uh, that they listen to for 21 days.
• 20:03
  SJ-Sanj: And that's principles of neuroplasticity and wiring and new, new neural pathways.
• 20:09
  SJ-Sanj: And, um, it's very effective.
• 20:12
  SJ-Sanj: And that's why I, that's why I spent, you know, 18 months becoming certified in it because I'm like, this, this works.
• 20:18
  SJ-Sanj: And, uh, so that's what I'm spending my time doing.
• 20:22
  SJ-Dawn: It sounds really interesting.
• 20:24
  SJ-Dawn: It sounds very Marissa Pier.
• 20:25
  SJ-Dawn: I love it.
• 20:26
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah.
• 20:27
  SJ-Sanj: Well, I mean, I trained with her.
• 20:28
  SJ-Sanj: I mean, I was, I was, I did a live training, it's an online program, but then I did a, a week long training with her, and I was actually picked, I.
• 20:36
  SJ-Sanj: She did a session on me in the live training.
• 20:39
  SJ-Sanj: I had a fear of dogs because I had a few experiences as kids.
• 20:42
  SJ-Sanj: One, I walked into a chicken coop when I was two years old and got scratched up by chickens.
• 20:47
  SJ-Sanj: And this fear of animals was always with me.
• 20:50
  SJ-Sanj: And, uh, that session and her recording.
• 20:53
  SJ-Sanj: And we just actually took care of, my brother-in-law's dog last week, and I would've never done that
• 21:00
  SJ-Dawn: Wow, that's awesome.
• 21:01
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SJ-Sanj: So.
• 21:03
  SJ-Dawn: It's very interesting.
• 21:04
  SJ-Dawn: I mean, I did not know the details of this modality, but it sounds great and very effective.
• 21:10
  SJ-Dawn: And just to clarify, you're doing these sessions with people online, correct?
• 21:16
  SJ-Sanj: it's all, it's all via Zoom.
• 21:18
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SJ-Sanj: Because it, because it's, it gives you the ability to work with anybody in the world, which is just great.
• 21:22
  SJ-Sanj: You know?
• 21:23
  SJ-Sanj: I may do some local sessions too, but it's just as effective really over Zoom.
• 21:27
  SJ-Dawn: Oh, that's good to know.
• 21:28
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah, that was my next question.
• 21:30
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SJ-Sanj: So it works really well.
• 21:33
  SJ-Sanj: I mean, it's, it, it was, it was a, one of those eye-opening experiences when I discovered it.
• 21:38
  SJ-Sanj: I was like, wow, I don't know why the physician community doesn't know about this, you know, so.
• 21:44
  SJ-Sanj: Mm-hmm.
• 21:46
  SJ-Dawn: Well, it sounds awesome and I wanna go back to you a little bit and your experience, uh, has there been anything difficult in your transition out of.
• 21:59
  SJ-Dawn: A conventional radiology job out of doing the kind of job that everyone expects you to do, to doing these things that are not as well known, that are different, um, and mixing it in with the radiology.
• 22:14
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 22:16
  SJ-Sanj: You know.
• 22:17
  SJ-Sanj: Part of, part of this transition to me, for me, was to kind of dismantle some of my own limiting beliefs, right?
• 22:24
  SJ-Sanj: So like, I have this feeling inside that I wanted to do something different, but my identity, my entire identity was wrapped up into I'm a radiologist, I'm a, you know, radiology leader and, and the college and all that stuff.
• 22:40
  SJ-Sanj: And, everybody knew me as that.
• 22:42
  SJ-Sanj: And so it's very difficult to, um, un un until you do the work and, and dismantle some of these, uh, hangups that you have.
• 22:51
  SJ-Sanj: They're really just self-imposed handcuffs, right?
• 22:54
  SJ-Sanj: I mean, that's all they are.
• 22:55
  SJ-Sanj: And, um, so that was probably the biggest impediment was just getting past my own view of who I was and who I wanted to portray myself.
• 23:06
  SJ-Sanj: Into the world as, and it's not, you know, I mean, you're, you're doing a lot of different things as well, and sometimes it's not as well received as you think it should be.
• 23:16
  SJ-Sanj: Right.
• 23:17
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, our people are maybe jealous or they don't know about it and physicians are very conservative by nature.
• 23:24
  SJ-Sanj: um, that's probably the biggest thing for me.
• 23:29
  SJ-Dawn: I often say that people being naysayers is really more saying something about them and their limiting beliefs and the kind of things that they think are possible and not possible.
• 23:39
  SJ-Dawn: And sometimes people are jealous and sometimes they just cannot see the possibility of what you're doing because they have such a blind spot like you mentioned.
• 23:49
  SJ-Sanj: yeah.
• 23:49
  SJ-Sanj: I mean, some people's cognitive distortions are so.
• 23:54
  SJ-Sanj: Deeply fixed that they, you just can't get past.
• 23:57
  SJ-Sanj: And that's fine.
• 23:57
  SJ-Sanj: That's just, they're gonna have to do their own work, you know?
• 24:00
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SJ-Dawn: What is the best part of having this unique schedule and unique blend of the kind of things that you're doing?
• 24:10
  SJ-Sanj: I think it's just, uh, you know, we all wanna kind of be excited when you get up in the day.
• 24:15
  SJ-Sanj: As opposed to being, uh, I can't wait till Friday or I can't wait till my next vacation.
• 24:20
  SJ-Sanj: And I know a lot of physicians that basically live from vacation to vacation, you know, uh, there, there's a lot of, people that have a week off every four to six weeks and they just, they grind it out until that time.
• 24:31
  SJ-Sanj: And it's unfortunate to live that way, and I don't, I don't have to live that way.
• 24:35
  SJ-Sanj: And I think that's a, that's a blessing of, of doing something that's, able to.
• 24:39
  SJ-Sanj: Feed your soul kind of thing, you know?
• 24:43
  SJ-Dawn: Well, before we started recording, we were talking about life as an engineer and the rigorousness of the engineering training, and I'm wondering if you go back to that time, if there's anything that you wish that you knew then, um, is there anything that you would do differently, on your path to where you are now?
• 25:03
  SJ-Sanj: Well, for me, engineering was a condition choice.
• 25:07
  SJ-Sanj: My dad was, you know, Indian immigrant and he's like, you're gonna be either an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, or that kind of stuff.
• 25:13
  SJ-Sanj: And I, I actually wanted to go to Carnegie Mellon for business, but my dad's like, no, you're not going there for business.
• 25:18
  SJ-Sanj: You can go there for engineering.
• 25:19
  SJ-Sanj: So I did, but I mean, I probably would've, I probably would've followed my natural inclination, inclination.
• 25:28
  SJ-Sanj: Back then even I was reading books.
• 25:31
  SJ-Sanj: Um, philosophy books.
• 25:32
  SJ-Sanj: I took a few philosophy classes at Carnegie Mellon.
• 25:36
  SJ-Sanj: Um, you know, I probably would've been a philosophy major and been a psychiatrist had I, had I known that I was able to follow what I really wanted to do as opposed to just, you know, being in line with, with what's expected
• 25:52
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SJ-Dawn: And it's so hard when you're that age too, when you're like 18, 19, uh, it's the same with me.
• 26:00
  SJ-Dawn: It's like, well, this is the path that you have to take.
• 26:03
  SJ-Dawn: Um, not some woowoo path or, uh, artistic path or something of that nature.
• 26:11
  SJ-Sanj: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SJ-Sanj: And that's, you know, I, I think the biggest thing I'm trying to do is not impose my own programming on my kids.
• 26:19
  SJ-Sanj: So, I have four kids, one of my.
• 26:22
  SJ-Sanj: Daughters as a film major, which, you know, that never would've flew, you know, uh, you know, another one of my, another one of my kids wants to be a professional golfer.
• 26:31
  SJ-Sanj: And so those are, you know, those are the things that you kind of try to, I try to stay out of their way a little
• 26:37
  SJ-Dawn: Mm-hmm.
• 26:38
  SJ-Dawn: You know, to be honest, my only daughter is nine and we are not even pushing her for college.
• 26:45
  SJ-Dawn: We're just like.
• 26:46
  SJ-Dawn: Let's just wait and see.
• 26:47
  SJ-Dawn: You know, college is super expensive and if you wanna take a gap year, if you wanna take a job, if you wanna do an internship, something like that.
• 26:54
  SJ-Dawn: She's kind of on this train right now of wanting to be a veterinarian because she loves animals so much.
• 26:59
  SJ-Dawn: She's kind of the opposite of you.
• 27:00
  SJ-Dawn: She's like in the chicken coop, like getting the chickens on her and stuff.
• 27:04
  SJ-Dawn: But like, she may change that as she gets a little bit older and, uh, we're not really pushing her in a particular direction.
• 27:11
  SJ-Dawn: And, uh, I think that.
• 27:13
  SJ-Dawn: Hopefully that will be the right, the right way to be.
• 27:17
  SJ-Sanj: No, I think that's great.
• 27:18
  SJ-Sanj: I, I think, uh, kids know we're naturally inclined, to follow their own kind of interests, you know, and uh, when I work with young adults, I try to get them back to their, what did they like to do as children?
• 27:30
  SJ-Sanj: What did they do without being told to do it?
• 27:33
  SJ-Sanj: You know, that's, that's really where their gifts lie, and that's really where we have to kind of get them back to.
• 27:39
  SJ-Sanj: Before they were, pigeonholed by parents, society, whatever.
• 27:43
  SJ-Dawn: Yes.
• 27:44
  SJ-Dawn: Absolutely.
• 27:45
  SJ-Dawn: And it goes with what you were mentioning about yourself, thinking that maybe if you would redo it, you would be in philosophy or, or in psychiatry.
• 27:54
  SJ-Sanj: But yeah, there's
• 27:56
  SJ-Dawn: Now here you are using those gifts, which is great.
• 27:59
  SJ-Dawn: Um, one other thing I thought about was just you were mentioning your own children.
• 28:03
  SJ-Dawn: How do you navigate screen time and these kind of mental health challenges with your own kids?
• 28:13
  SJ-Sanj: I'm a big believer in the 80 20 rule, so there's a, there's a few things that you can do that make a huge impact with screens.
• 28:20
  SJ-Sanj: And I've experimented over the years and my kids have.
• 28:23
  SJ-Sanj: Unfortunately been Guinea pigs with a lot of this stuff.
• 28:26
  SJ-Sanj: Um, but the first thing is, you know, you, you really need limits because these are intentionally addictive things.
• 28:32
  SJ-Sanj: So apple screen time is really good.
• 28:34
  SJ-Sanj: All my kids have limits.
• 28:35
  SJ-Sanj: Even my 23-year-old who's going to medical school has a limit still on his thing, and they can request additional time.
• 28:42
  SJ-Sanj: But, otherwise it's just a free for all.
• 28:44
  SJ-Sanj: And you can spend three hours on TikTok before you even know.
• 28:48
  SJ-Sanj: What you, what you did right before you blink.
• 28:51
  SJ-Sanj: Um, so limits are one thing.
• 28:54
  SJ-Sanj: I think turning off all notifications except for text is another one that you really want to be able to use the phone on your own terms and use it.
• 29:03
  SJ-Sanj: Like Steve Jobs wanted you to use it, which is basically talk text and music.
• 29:07
  SJ-Sanj: That was his initial vision.
• 29:09
  SJ-Sanj: It wasn't to be constantly ping all day long by third party apps, which is what everybody does now, right.
• 29:16
  SJ-Sanj: Um, I.
• 29:17
  SJ-Sanj: And, and, um, the third big one is to really, have no phones in the car or at the dinner table or restaurants.
• 29:27
  SJ-Sanj: When you're driving your kid, that may be the only time of the day that you have uninterrupted with them.
• 29:33
  SJ-Sanj: And so, you know, we really try to have not where everybody's sitting on their phones during car rides.
• 29:39
  SJ-Sanj: Um.
• 29:40
  SJ-Sanj: Or, or obviously the dinner table and stuff like that.
• 29:43
  SJ-Sanj: So those are like, those are a handful of things that make a huge difference.
• 29:49
  SJ-Sanj: And then there's some nuances past that.
• 29:52
  SJ-Dawn: Mm-hmm.
• 29:52
  SJ-Dawn: Yeah, those are great.
• 29:53
  SJ-Dawn: That's great advice.
• 29:56
  SJ-Dawn: San.
• 29:56
  SJ-Dawn: This has been a wonderful conversation.
• 29:58
  SJ-Dawn: Is there anything else that would be a piece of advice you could give listeners who are feeling overwhelmed, burned out, and feeling like that they're stuck on the treadmill of achievement, want to be doing something that they have a bigger passion for, but they don't feel like they can go there.
• 30:16
  SJ-Sanj: mean, I think just understand that.
• 30:21
  SJ-Sanj: Everything you want to do and everything you, feel, um, that's inside you.
• 30:26
  SJ-Sanj: There's a reason that you're feeling that.
• 30:28
  SJ-Sanj: And it's available to you that life is available to you to pursue, uh, the kind of life you wanna live.
• 30:34
  SJ-Sanj: The kind of fulfillment, uh, abundance you wanna feel in your life.
• 30:40
  SJ-Sanj: It's all available to you.
• 30:41
  SJ-Sanj: And we've grown up, um, being told that it's not that you gotta follow this safe, practical path.
• 30:47
  SJ-Sanj: That's probably the biggest advice is, is, is everything you want is available.
• 30:53
  SJ-Dawn: That's great advice and a great reminder.
• 30:56
  SJ-Dawn: San thank you for being on the show, and I would love it if you tell us where people can find you, if they wanna connect with you or learn more about the things that you do.
• 31:07
  SJ-Sanj: Sure.
• 31:08
  SJ-Sanj: Thanks.
• 31:08
  SJ-Sanj: I'm on Facebook, um, at San Catl.
• 31:12
  SJ-Sanj: Uh, my website is san catal.com, S-A-N-J-K-A-T-Y-A l.com, and there's some blog articles and other resources on there.
• 31:23
  SJ-Dawn: Great.
• 31:23
  SJ-Dawn: Thank you so much for being on the show.
• 31:25
  SJ-Sanj: I appreciate it, Tom.
• 31:26
  SJ-Sanj: Thanks for having me.
• 31:29
  Sand still enjoys radiology on a part-time basis, but he feels called to help both kids with screen addiction and physicians feeling lost and unfulfilled.
• 31:38
  So he's continuing to do all of these things in his unique work life balance.
• 31:42
  Here are my takeaways from our conversation.
• 31:45
  Number one, identify your happiness boosters.
• 31:49
  As Sange counseled us, sprinkling these into your weeks has been proven to help your sense of wellbeing.
• 31:55
  He listed kayaking, hiking, and riding as his happiness boosters.
• 32:00
  But they don't even have to be things that take a lot of time or are huge hobbies.
• 32:04
  For instance, I get a happiness boost by doing my skincare and morning makeup routine.
• 32:10
  I do it even if I'm just hanging out on the homestead with my family because I really enjoy doing it and it makes me feel ready for the day, even if the day doesn't involve meetings or going anywhere.
• 32:21
  I give this as an example because maybe your happiness boosters are things you're already doing on a routine or even a daily basis.
• 32:28
  Positive psychology tells us that the mere identification and noticing what makes you happy brings a sense of happiness.
• 32:37
  There's a theme of noticing, again, just like I talked about in the intro to the show.
• 32:43
  Number two, do you suffer from any of the limiting beliefs Seche pointed out as the most common he sees among physicians as a review?
• 32:51
  They are.
• 32:52
  I'm not good enough.
• 32:54
  What I want isn't available to me.
• 32:56
  And I don't relate to or can't connect with others.
• 33:00
  Remember that you have the ability to question all your beliefs and unwritten rules, but as Sange explained, you can tap into the subconscious mind using therapies like he practices to really work on deep seated limiting beliefs.
• 33:16
  Number three, think about the things that really light you up your purpose or your calling, if you will.
• 33:23
  Speaking of purpose with a little p, go back and listen to the episode I did with Dr.
• 33:27
  Jordan Grumet in January of this year.
• 33:29
  If you haven't already heard it, I will link to it in the show notes.
• 33:33
  When we were talking about kids near the end of the conversation, one of the things Sange said was that he asks his adult clients to go back and remember what it was they liked to do as kids.
• 33:43
  What was something they would do without anyone telling them to do it?
• 33:48
  My parting question for you today is.
• 33:51
  What do you feel called to do, and is it something you're already doing or is it something that you want to incorporate into your work life balance?
• 34:01
  Thanks for listening to the lean out podcast.
• 34:04
  If you find these conversations inspiring and useful, please forward them to a friend and also leave a review on iTunes or Spotify so that other people can find them easier.
• 34:16
  If you want to get in touch with me, you can find me at my website, practice balanced.com, where you can subscribe to my newsletter and get updates regularly about new podcast episodes, blog posts, speaking, engagements, and coaching services.
• 34:32
  You can also support my work by buying my book, lean out a professional woman's guide to finding authentic work-life balance for yourself, a friend, family member, or coworker.
• 34:45
  Have a great day and we'll see you next time