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The Lost 1980 Interview with Donald Trump · Brett Keane and Eve Show

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That's telegram from Rona Buret. And it said, would you stop
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futzing around after 7 1/2 years?
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What do you think she meant by futzing?
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And Elton, said, Leonard, obviously, she couldn't tell you
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what she really meant because the Telegraph operator couldn't
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write the real word. And so Leonard said, listen,
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Elton, if you want to try her in Los Angeles, you'd be my guest.
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But that's how I went to Goddess.
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No kidding. And I had been pounding the
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pavements for 10 years, 10 years in Los Angeles, trying to get
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them to put me on television because I believe me and place
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to go so that you are right voice to television.
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So then Leonard really was very instrumental.
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Leonard, I, I, I wrote it in my book and everything I think, I
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think Leonard is. Well, he felt very bad when
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you're leaving, you know, he, he personally, he told me he was
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very disappointed. He sent me the most stunning
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letter. I will always save it forever.
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He thought it was a great, great mistake and a great loss to ABCI
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did too. But I didn't, couldn't fight the
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powers that be. Well, you're going to show those
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powers that may be. Maybe, hopefully, hopefully,
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we'll show that together, Donald.
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You won't. Maybe that may be so.
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Anyway, that's great. Rona you?
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Think it's possible the Great American Dream has always been
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to become a millionaire for the people who have nothing.
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Do you think that's a reality today?
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Excuse me? I can hear all of you over there
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and I can't concentrate. So could all of you please
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disappear? Thank you.
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Do you think in the 1980s that anyone can grow up to become a
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millionaire? Is that a reality?
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Well, I think nowadays, Rona, I think it's more and more of a
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reality with the lack of incentives that are being given
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to so many people, many more people have a tendency maybe to
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give up. And I think the people that
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don't, I think they're actually finding the ways or or maybe the
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pads are a little bit smoother than they were 5 and 10 and 15
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years ago. It's a sad commentary, but
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nevertheless, it's possibly easier now than it was 10 years
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ago. You think it is easier to become
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a millionaire? I really do.
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I think people, I think many people have lost incentives.
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I think that, you know, with what's happening with even the
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country as a whole, it's a sad situation and people sort of
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become a little depressed and their own depression and the
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country's depression leads to that lack of incentive and
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becoming wealthy or becoming successful or becoming whatever
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the word is. When you say becoming anything,
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I think it largely has to do with incentive and drive and
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enthusiasm. You are 34 years old.
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Your assets are considered to be over a billion dollars.
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Where did you get the incentive? I mean 34.
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It's so young, Donald. Well, I don't look at really in
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my case necessarily incentive. I enjoy what I'm doing.
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I really enjoy what I'm doing. I look at it as as being
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somewhat creative. We've done developments that
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people said could not be done and maybe because of the timing,
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maybe it was inflation, maybe whatever the, the end result has
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turned out to be tremendous with the various hotels, etcetera.
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I, I think I just basically I thrive on what I do.
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I enjoy what I do. I like what I do.
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And it's not that I'm looking for anything.
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I just enjoy it when I get up in the morning.
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I'm I'm excited about the day. Is work your love?
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It really is. I enjoy so much my work and I
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think that's probably the key to anybody's success.
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Is there anything you can't have?
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Well, I believe if you think that you can't have it, you
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probably won't have it. You have to go into everything
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with a positive attitude. You know, they say that I was
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telling somebody a little bit before, they say that the human
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mind is only using 1% of its potential and that if the human
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mind could use 3%, you could do literally anything.
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You could cure the major diseases, you could do anything,
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just one mind in this world if it could get up to 3% of its
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maximum potential. So let's say you don't get up to
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3%, but if you can get a little bit more out of it than the 1%,
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I think you're going to be able to do pretty much whatever you
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want to do if you if you have the basic ingredients going in.
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But in terms of specifics, I totally agree about positive
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thinking. But you is there anything you
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can't have materialistically or emotionally?
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Is there something that your money cannot buy?
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Well, it's a very nice question, Ron.
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I'm not sure that there's an answer to it.
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I mean, I'm quite happy with everything.
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I'm quite happy with the way everything's worked out for me
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at this point. I hope this point hasn't been
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very far in 10 years. If we sit down at the same
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situation, maybe I'll tell you, Roni, you know, I've made
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mistakes here and mistakes there, which today I don't think
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are mistakes. But at this moment I would say,
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by the way, money is not the ingredient.
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Money has nothing to do with the ingredient.
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It just whether I was a, you know, an artist and just pushing
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my work and enjoying my work, whatever it is, I think you just
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have to be happy in what you do. In my case, by the way, my art
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is my real estate and my buildings.
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And if the deals work out, well, that makes me happy because
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that's sort of a sign of accomplishment.
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But that's pretty much the way I feel about it.
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Do you think that the acquisition of wealth, though,
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is an absolute aphrodisiac? No, not at all.
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In fact, I think in many cases it really creates problems that
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you normally wouldn't have. Like what?
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Well, many. You're expected to be a certain
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kind of a person, and maybe you're not necessarily cut out
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to be that kind of a person. You know, you're cast very much
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as as being in the movies, you're casting a certain role
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and maybe your role isn't that role after 7:00 or 6:00 or 5:00
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or whatever it is that you come back home from the office.
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There are things and pressures placed on you that normally you
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wouldn't have. And I've often said the happiest
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people and the most contented people that I've seen.
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And I know the very wealthy, I know the moderately wealthy and
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I guess I know people a lot less than that.
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But the the happiest people tend to be the people that are making
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a nice income, that really enjoy their life and their family life
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and and and, and not the people of tremendous wealth that are
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constantly driven to achieve more and more success.
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But when is enough enough? Obviously there must have been a
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time, a point when you knew that you would be secure for the rest
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of your life, your family, your relatives, whomever.
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Why do you go on? Well, I go on really because I
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enjoy it. I really enjoy when I, when I
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think about my business, I think about it literally 24 hours a
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day and I really enjoy it. If I didn't, I will stop.
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There's no question in my mind that I'll stop because I, I do
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understand it's all basically a game.
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We're all here to play the game and we're all hopefully going to
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play it well. But some people obviously can't
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play it well because if everyone played it well, you'd you'd have
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a pretty unusual situation. But the game is being played now
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by me and by plenty of other people, and the people that
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enjoy it are the people that are going to win it in my opinion.
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When you win, is there sometimes a time when you also lose?
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Because in winning there is also losing.
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Have you ever lost? Well, I guess you can say I, I
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would imagine everybody's lost at some point or another.
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If you had a, if I had to at this point in my life, look at
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any particular business transaction or anything, I could
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say that I have not lost in that regard.
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Personally. I have a wonderful wife and
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family and we have the, everyone has a nice relationship having
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to do with me. And so I really, I really can
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say that thus far in life I've been quite lucky.
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But I also understand life and life is a long, a long term
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investment. It's not a short term investment
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and relatively speaking, I guess I'm only midterm or short term,
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so I can't really tell you what's going to happen in the
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future. But I do feel very positively
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about the future. And I hope that I hope that all
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goes well. And I think that again, my mind
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is made-up that it will go well without consciously thinking and
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just saying just so I can convince myself.
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I mean, I feel that things will go well.
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And if you feel that way, I believe they probably will go
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well. Were you always so lucky from
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the time you were a little boy? I guess the answer and by the
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way, a word, a very important word you just mentioned is luck.
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They're no matter how great a person may be, there is always
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that element of luck. And yet the interesting
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phenomena to me seems to be that the same people are always
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lucky. So maybe they create their own
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luck or they make their own luck.
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But I've been I would say that I've certainly had my share of
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luck. Yes, tell.
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Me about the early days of Donald Trump.
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I mean, were you born into wealth?
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I mean, was your father, I know your father was successful, but
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when you came along, was he already successful?
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Oh yes, my father was very successful.
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And my father, he, my father built homes and apartment houses
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in various sections and did very well.
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And I was born and brought up in the construction business, so to
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speak. And I enjoyed it from day one.
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I went to the good colleges and I, you know, I went through all
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of the normal process. I guess what I want to know,
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because I think lots of people out there might want to know,
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what was your life like? I mean, did you live in a house?
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Did you live in an apartment? Did you have brothers and
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sisters? I think you're one of five.
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That's correct. That's, I mean, what kind of a
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family life do you have? I mean, did you go outside and
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play ball or did you have what we call a normal life, a normal
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upbringing? Or were you constantly taught
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from day one, Donald, you must be a success and gear your head
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this way and travel down that road and never move to the left
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and never move to the right? Well, Rona, I think I was
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probably brought up in a in a very normal fashion.
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We did have a house. I do have brothers and sisters.
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I have wonderful parents, wonderful family, really very
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wonderful family. I think we're a very highly
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motivated family. But again, I would never use the
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word ambition. And because to me, ambition's a
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bad word. It's not ambitious.
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You know, when I when I see when I see people saying I'm going to
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do this and I'm going to do that and I'm so ambitious and I'm in
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it, it really, it really sickens me to listen to him talking.
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I think it's just something that we were motivated and properly
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motivated and I think we're motivated for the right things.
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We were also motivated toward family and toward good things.
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But I like to think that maybe the ideas that I've had have,
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you know, created what we've created over the past five or
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six years, ideas that maybe at the time people didn't believe
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in. A lot of people didn't believe
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in them. The, you know, we, we built a
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hotel at a location and at a time in New York City's history
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when people were saying, oh, forget about it, It can just
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cannot happen, it can't work, etcetera.
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Now the hotel is open, and I guess it's known as one of the
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greatest successes in real estate in the United States.
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That's the Grand Hyatt. That's the Grand Hyatt, which is
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built right next to Grand Central Terminal.
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We tried to convince the city to build a Convention Center when
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they had fought for 12 years to build a center on a different
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site over the Hudson River, which was unbuildable.
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You couldn't build it. It would cost too much.
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And we came up with a different location, and we were successful
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in convincing them. And now they're building a $375
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million Convention Center at a site that we wanted them to
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build it at. But at the time, people said the
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city will never have a Convention Center.
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The city's got its difficulties. Today, New York is the hottest
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city in the world, I would say. I don't think there's, and we
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are in other cities, but I don't think there's a city in the
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world that is so viable today as New York.
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All of the Europeans are looking to come to New York.
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Many as a matter of fact, and I don't like to say it because I
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know you're from California, but many of of my friends from
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California are now looking to come back to New York for some
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reason. It's a psychology.
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It's it, it's, it's a great change and a great shift in the
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mind from what it was five years ago.
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But I made a lot of transactions and, and deals five years ago
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having to do with New York and hoping that New York would come
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back. And it's come back, frankly much
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stronger than I thought it would be possible.
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Tell me about that dream. Tell me how does that dream come
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about? Do you wake up one day and you
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say I want 30th St. on the West side, I want 42nd St. on the
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east side. I want the Tiffany location,
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57th St. and 5th Ave. What happens?
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Donald, tell me about that process.
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Well, it's a process and it's something that you maybe have an
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instinct for. The finest piece of real estate,
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considered to be the finest piece of real estate in the
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world is at the corner of 5th Ave. and 57th St.
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That's the Tiffany corner of the world.
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And you can go to California, you can go to Des Moines, IA,
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you can go anywhere and you can say what's the Tiffany location?
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It's become a phrase. The Tiffany location is 5th Ave.
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and 57th St. And for many years, I mean, even
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when I was so young that they were throwing me out of the
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company, the the people that own that particular location, for
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many years I went to a certain public company, large company,
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and tried to buy the block with the exception of Tiffany.
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How old were? You I was, well, I guess I
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started that when I was 27 and they said forget it, forget it
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at a major department store happened to be located on that
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block. It was called bond with teller
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and they would always say forget it, forget it, forget it.
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And one day I got a phone call and I'd always forward, by the
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way, the letters and as per our meeting and this and that.
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And one day I got a phone call and they wanted to know if we
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wanted to make a deal very quickly and very easily.
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And I guess I was the only one because everyone assumed,
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frankly, that that block of real estate would never be sold.
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And it was sold. And we proceeded to buy the air
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rights over Tiffany, which is a zoning term for area and space
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over Tiffany. And we're now building the 68
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story tower at 5th Ave. and 57th St., which is going to be, I
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believe, the most spectacular building of its kind in the
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world. Considering the pollution
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problem we have today, do you think that was a good buy?
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The pollution problem, Well, it's above the.
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Pollution. Air Oh, I see.
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OK, well, it's I think it was a good buy.
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I think it'll be a fabulous situation for the people that
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are going to be moving into the building.
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And I I mean, you know, everybody and everybody really
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in the world is excited about that building because nobody
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believed it would be possible to build that kind of a building in
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that location because nobody ever assumed that that location
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could possibly be purchased. But all of a sudden it was, and
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maybe it was mind over matter again.
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You know, maybe you just really believe that someday you'll own
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that location and you end up owning that location.
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So maybe it is mind over matter. Maybe it's luck.
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Maybe I was lucky that they happened to call me very quickly
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instead of calling any one of a number of other people that
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would have jumped on it. But they did call me and I
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bought the same. To attain the kinds of things
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that you've attained in real estate, can you do it without
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having political clout? Yes, I believe so.
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I mean, people give me a lot of credit for having political
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clout, which I really necessarily don't have.
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I look at my ideas as something that sell themselves.
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And I think the politicians in New York have been very decent
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and very open as far as Donald Trump is concerned.
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I think they've #1 looked at the project and they've said the
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projects are great. The projects and the ideas are
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good. But the Convention Center is an
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example. That Convention Center that I
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proposed was many times better than any of the other competing
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convention centers because everybody that had a site that
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was large tried to convince the city and state to build it on
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their site. But the fact is our site was
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better. It was a judge to be better.
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And I think politically speaking, I think what the state
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is going to do is they're going to build a better Convention
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Center in a better location than originally planned.
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And they're going to see save at least $100 million over and over
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and above what they were originally talking about
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building the Center for. So I don't know what that has to
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do with the political connections, although I have
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been accused of having political connections.
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Do you have political? Connections.
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I really say no. You say no.
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I I absolutely say no. I think if I went.
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Is it because people think that it's ugly?
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Like the word ambition to have political friends who can help
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you. Well, in fact, I do have many
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political friends, but I, I really believe that without the
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proper ideas and the proper concepts and the proper planning
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and, and you know, I don't believe I could have sold one of
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the other Convention Center sites.
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I believe my site was the best. I really believe that.
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And I don't think the guy would have been successful in trying
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to sell one of the other sites as the other groups were not
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successful in selling their site.
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I believe that the Grand Hyatt hotel, which is now opened up
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and which is booked out and tremendously it's it's, it's
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just a tremendous operation. At the time I did it, the hotel
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that occupied that site was a closed, boarded up building and
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people were not exactly even against my the fact that we got
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various tax abatements, etcetera, etcetera for that
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particular site. What's happened is the area's
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turned out to be AAA. Philip Morris is building its
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world headquarters. The Chrysler Building is
16:44
booming. The rents over there are
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tremendous. The area's thriving.
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We're doing the restoration of Grand Central Terminal, and it's
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turned out to be a wonderful idea.
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But at the time, everyone loved my idea because they thought it
16:54
might lead to the total revival of the Grand Central Terminal
16:57
area. And it has.
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But what made you think of it, though?
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Was it just because it was a piece of property that you could
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acquire for the right price and you thought it was?
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Did you do some feasibility studies?
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I mean, what what said to you one day, Donald, you must go and
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buy the old Commodore Hotel and transform that into the new
17:17
Grand Hyatt. Well, I think it was monumental.
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You know, it was a monumental approach to things that I've
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sort of developed. The building itself was there.
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You had Grand Central Terminal there.
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You have the Pan Am building there, you have, you have the
17:31
Chrysler building there. The whole area is monumental.
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The key to that area was the old Commodore Hotel, which was now
17:40
gutted and redone and it's a spectacular hotel.
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The the the process of doing the monumental deal to me has always
17:48
been much easier than the process of doing the small deal.
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If instead instead we have friends that were in different
17:56
locations trying to get similar tax abatements as I got for my
17:59
hotel. They were doing non monumental
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projects, a little shopping center in Queens, another one
18:05
was doing a little shopping center in Brooklyn.
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All having the same basic thing. My deal was much easier to work
18:10
than theirs because it was a monumental project.
18:12
It was easier getting the tax abatement.
18:14
It was easier getting the financing for the project
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project. It was easier getting
18:16
everything, even though the numbers were much bigger, even
18:18
though the project was many, many, many times bigger.
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My deal in a sense was easier than theirs because everybody
18:24
reacted to my deal whereas they didn't want to bother with the
18:26
shopping center concept and they didn't want to bother with
18:29
another little concept someplace else.
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So I really believe it's easier to do the big concepts that have
18:35
a certain amount of glamour and you know the word glamour very
18:38
well than it is to do the smaller, what seemingly would be
18:43
the easier deal. But really, I think in fact
18:45
turns out generally to be the harder kind of transaction.
18:49
A big deal, a small deal. No matter what deal you're ever
18:53
in, even though you may win in the final analysis, sometimes a
18:58
door gets closed in your face. How do you get those doors open?
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What makes you go on? Well, you do get many doors
19:05
closed. There's no question about that,
19:07
Rana. That's something that's happened
19:09
in in many cases. And I guess, I guess you just
19:13
have to keep going. I guess you really just have to
19:15
keep pushing and just get going. And a funny thing is once you
19:18
open the first door, it becomes a lot easier to open the second
19:21
door. I mean, for instance, today it's
19:23
much easier for me to have things happen than it would have
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been five years ago before any of these conceptions or
19:30
conceptual ideas really came into fruition.
19:33
Today is much easier for me to make a phone call and try and
19:36
have something happen that it was five years ago.
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Can you remember your very first day?
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Well, I, I've, I've always been making deals, even when I was
19:46
very young. I mean, you know, it's.
19:47
Just very young. How old were you when you set
19:49
out without any help from anyone to make your very first deal?
19:53
That I couldn't say what I can tell you that it's an instinct
19:56
that some people have where they enjoy doing certain things and
20:00
I've always enjoyed being somewhat creative and and and
20:03
working out various deal concepts, but I really couldn't
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tell you what the first was going on.
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Were you 12 or 13 years old when you began thinking about
20:13
concepts? Were you younger than that?
20:15
Did it start when you were in your teens and your early 20s?
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When do you think it really all began for you?
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Well, I guess probably sometime during high school and during
20:23
college and during whatever, I think you probably just start
20:26
forming the brain cells start forming in that direction, but I
20:30
really don't know when exactly. I wish I could answer that
20:32
question a little bit better. It was an article recently that
20:36
headlined Like Father, Like Son, Why you like your dad?
20:40
Well, I hope so. I have a very wonderful father
20:43
and I would hope I'd be somewhat like my father.
20:45
What's he like? Strong, dynamic gentleman.
20:50
Is he loving, kind. Giving?
20:51
Absolutely. Absolutely.
20:53
Totally. Could you go to him anytime
20:55
you've had a problem? Is he that kind of a father?
20:58
Absolutely I could, yes. There's always been this sort of
21:02
thing, this theory about people who are born into into wealth,
21:07
that the parents shuttle them off to private schools, that you
21:13
have nannies and governesses, that your parents are really
21:16
never around when you need them. And a lot of children of the of
21:20
the well to do have never really been very happy.
21:24
Some have grown up. Of course, there's always the
21:26
exception to the rule. That's right.
21:28
Were you shunted off to private schools or did you go to public
21:31
schools or what was that? Well, I was.
21:33
I was sent to private schools, but probably never shunted off.
21:37
I was, no, I did it. I, I went to the private schools
21:39
and I went through the whole scenario.
21:41
But I've always had parents that were very supportive, in fact
21:44
very supportive over the last five and six and seven years
21:46
because they needed support. Over the last five or six years,
21:50
I was being criticized very badly for concepts and ideas
21:53
that probably at the time would not have been viable.
21:56
And it turned out that they turned out to be very viable.
21:58
So I needed the support of of a family, of a good family and a
22:02
strong family and a family that backed my thinking.
22:06
And they did. And you know, and now I think
22:09
they can sit back and say, well, we made the right decision.
22:12
But I've always had a very supportive family.
22:16
Are you hurt by criticism? No, not really.
22:18
I've been used to criticism because I've taken a lot of
22:20
criticism over the last number of years.
22:22
I don't. Think anybody gets used to
22:23
criticism though, Donald? I think.
22:25
I think you can develop sort of what I call a right guard shield
22:29
around you. But I think the first time
22:31
people start attacking you, if you've never been attacked
22:34
before, it's a feeling and an emotion and an action that that
22:39
is not a custom that you're not accustomed to.
22:42
How do you handle it or how did you handle it the first?
22:44
Time So I think you are right. I think you probably never
22:47
really get used to it in the total sense and maybe all I'm
22:49
doing when you say you know, do you mind criticism and I say no,
22:53
I really don't. Maybe I'm just creating my own
22:55
little psychological wedge also for maybe that kind of a
22:57
question, but you just have to go with it.
23:01
I mean, you're you're always going to be criticized no matter
23:03
what you do. And you have to realize it and
23:05
you really have to develop a little bit of a tough skin.
23:07
And if you don't, you really cannot survive.
23:09
I suspect doing anything of any great importance do.
23:13
You like having a tough skin. Do you think you have to have a
23:15
killer instinct in order to be successful?
23:18
I think you have to have some to to a large extent, I think you
23:21
do have to have at least a winning, winning instinct.
23:23
I think that the world is made-up of people with either
23:29
killer instincts or without killer instincts.
23:32
And the people that seem to emerge all the time, it doesn't
23:35
mean they're the best people and it doesn't mean they're the
23:37
happiest people. And in fact, many, in many
23:39
cases, and in most cases they're probably not.
23:41
But the people that seem to emerge is are the people that
23:44
are competitive and driven and with a certain instinct to win.
23:47
You use the word competitive and driven.
23:51
I'd like to know what drives you.
23:54
Enjoyment, pure and simple enjoyment, rather.
23:57
I I want to buy the enjoyment, but somehow I feel that there is
24:01
something underneath it, that there's something more that
24:04
makes you want to succeed, want to be who you are.
24:09
Well, what do you think it is? Maybe I can just, yeah, but
24:12
maybe I could just add the word creativity.
24:14
I really enjoy creating and maybe this is my form of
24:17
creativity. You know, building the 68 story
24:20
building on 5th Ave. is my form of creativity and making it the
24:23
finest, not only the location, but instead of building an
24:25
average building, we're going to make it the finest building in
24:28
the world. And maybe that's my form of, of
24:32
enjoyment, which gives me a little bit more drive than
24:36
somebody else may or may not have, which allows me to do
24:38
these things. But I I feel that enjoyment
24:42
really has a large part to do with it.
24:44
Creativity and just just incentive, just having the
24:50
incentive to go out and do something.
24:54
Everything I've read about you listening to you speak, as I
24:58
think I said in the very beginning, work apparently is
25:02
your love. Is that true?
25:04
Well, work is, is something that I enjoy very much.
25:08
I can't say that it's my love. I mean, I have a lot of other
25:11
things that you know, are very dear and, and very dear to me.
25:15
But I certainly do enjoy work and it is certainly a love.
25:21
I was going to ask you, is there a room for a wife and a child in
25:26
in your list or on your list of priorities?
25:29
I mean, marriage is a very important thing for people.
25:33
I, I fully believe it. I think that having the home and
25:36
having the stability and I've had it all different ways.
25:39
I mean, I've had it the other way and I've had it the marriage
25:43
way. And I think that marriage is a
25:46
very important, having a Good Wife and having a nice family is
25:49
a very, very important. There is no substitute for it.
25:52
Frankly, there really is no substitute for it.
25:56
Are you friends? Yes, absolutely.
25:58
With my wife, absolutely. Absolutely.
26:01
Is it important? I think it's, I think it's the
26:03
most important thing. I mean, you have to be best
26:05
friends. If you're not going to be best
26:06
friends, then the marriage cannot work.
26:07
No matter what the other ingredients are, the marriage
26:09
really can't work. Speaking of friends, is it easy
26:14
for a man of wealth to develop friendships?
26:17
Friendships in the traditional sense.
26:20
Well, I think it's easier to develop friendships, but I'm not
26:24
so sure when you get back down to the traditional sense, and
26:27
that would mean the friends that are here in good times and bad.
26:29
I'm not so sure necessarily how many of those friends would be
26:32
around if things did take a turn for the worse.
26:35
I've often times thought that I'd like to test some people and
26:38
find out and just play the little game of doing the testing
26:41
and which has been done on occasion.
26:43
But it's very easy to develop friends, but it's very hard to
26:47
see whether or not they're real friends.
26:49
Do you think a real friend has to be someone who has the same
26:54
things you have, monetarily speaking?
26:57
No, I don't think so. I think probably maybe just the
26:59
opposite. I would not say so.
27:02
I think that. But isn't there a doubt then in
27:05
your mind that you're always wondering if that person isn't
27:09
there to try to get something from you, Donald Trump?
27:12
Well, there would always be that doubt.
27:13
But if you know people well enough, I think maybe one of my
27:16
my greatest strengths is understanding people, you know,
27:19
specific people for specific jobs, and just understanding the
27:23
human psyche of other people, maybe not even my own quite as
27:26
well, but of other people. And I'd like to think that I can
27:30
tell the difference between somebody that's looking for one
27:32
thing and somebody that's looking for the other Rona.
27:35
But you really never can, I mean, no matter how well you
27:38
understand people until there's a time of test.
27:41
And we shall see what we shall see.
27:44
Do you have a best friend? I have a lot of very good
27:47
friends. A lot.
27:48
Of a lot of good friends. Yeah, I would say that I have a
27:50
lot of very good friends. But again, my business is so
27:53
all-encompassing. I don't really get the pleasure
27:56
of of being with friends that much, frankly.
27:59
I mean, this is a strange question to ask, but God forbid
28:03
you got sick in the middle of the night and your wife and your
28:06
child weren't around and your housekeeper wasn't around and
28:08
your parents weren't around. Who would you call if you were
28:12
in trouble? Well, maybe I'll call you Rana.
28:14
You know, I mean, you're such a nice woman and you look like,
28:16
you know, you know your way around.
28:18
Certainly. So maybe I'll give you a little
28:20
buzz. But I'm not your best friend.
28:22
No, I know. I, I don't know.
28:24
I guess I would have a list of people.
28:25
I would have certainly. I'd have to think of one very
28:27
quickly, obviously, if that circumstance arrived.
28:30
But if there was somebody, I would imagine that person would
28:33
have been sitting right there now on the top of your head when
28:35
I asked you that question. That could very well be.
28:37
I'm not sure that I'd want to necessarily say that on
28:40
television who that person might.
28:41
Be well, I mean, you might say to me I have such a person that
28:44
I'd rather not. Yeah, I would say that I would
28:45
have actually a few such people who I could call
28:50
interchangeably, but I probably wouldn't mention who they would
28:53
be. In 30 years from now, your son
28:57
will be approximately the age that you are today.
29:01
Would you like to see the same kind of headline as was written
29:06
about you father like son? Well, I think that it'd be fine,
29:09
but I think more important to me would be that my son would be
29:12
happy, that my family would be happy.
29:15
I mean, I really don't care that much whether or not he decides
29:18
to go into this business or go into another business.
29:20
I find this business very exciting.
29:22
I find this business to be show business, frankly.
29:24
You know, in terms of what we've done.
29:25
I'd like to make it a little bit show busy because I don't like
29:28
show business that much. I do like the real estate
29:30
business, but I'd like the concept of show business as
29:33
relates as it relates to the real estate business.
29:35
But I would like my son mostly to be happy and if he's happy
29:39
then I'm really satisfied. And if he'd be happy doing what
29:42
I'm doing, then I'd be probably a little bit more satisfied.
29:46
Though he's only 2 1/2 or three at this this time, do you begin
29:50
to teach him about the value of a dollar?
29:53
Well, I would say I haven't devoted a tremendous amount of
29:55
time to teaching about the value of the dollar, but he is, he's
30:00
learning about the value of life, I think, not necessarily
30:04
the value of the dollar. And I think he's somebody that
30:07
enjoys his life and hopefully we can keep it that way.
30:10
It's a funny thing, a thought came to me.
30:13
Lots of kids play with blocks. Your son playing with blocks
30:17
doesn't necessarily mean little squares, but perhaps 57th St.
30:21
and 42nd St. and 30th St. You think about that.
30:26
Not really. Not really.
30:27
Well, I just, I just keep pushing along and I just hope
30:30
that, you know, again, I just hope that my son's going to be
30:33
happy. One day if someone were to make
30:37
a movie, you talk about show business and a relationship
30:40
here. One day, if someone were to make
30:42
a movie of your life, who would you see playing yourself?
30:47
Maybe maybe myself. I really I, I have to tell you
30:51
that I, I really, I really could not answer that question.
30:57
I really could not. Answer Are you trying to say
30:59
that after you've accomplished all in real estate, you might
31:03
like to try acting? Oh no, Oh no, not at all, Rona.
31:07
Believe me, that would be something that I would have no
31:09
interest in, no interest whatsoever.
31:12
But I don't, I really wouldn't be able to tell you who would
31:15
be, who would play the so-called leading role.
31:17
Would you like to see your life in the movies?
31:20
No, no. You don't think you're that
31:22
exciting a person that you've had such an interesting story?
31:25
That you I always like to say that I think my deals are the
31:28
most exciting deals. I don't necessarily want the
31:32
excitement for myself and I've always been somewhat guarded
31:36
about that. I mean, I do think we probably
31:38
have and I'm not saying it. It's been recognized that we
31:40
have the most exciting real estate transactions in in the
31:44
country at this moment. And I would say that I think
31:49
they're very by themselves. They are very exciting and that
31:52
satisfies me. That's my excitement.
31:54
Is, is is really seeing what happens with them.
31:58
You have to worry about the treachery that we have to worry
32:01
about, I mean going to the market, buying the things that
32:06
you need for the for your house, for your homes.
32:09
Do you do things like that? You have somebody do things like
32:11
that for you. Well, no.
32:13
We lead a very normal life and we always have to.
32:15
Everybody has to worry about drudgery in one form or the
32:17
other. But no, we do quite a bit of
32:21
work. You'd be surprised.
32:23
Well, surprised. Do you do?
32:25
Can I see you one day walking the streets or going into a
32:29
market and buying food for your family or for.
32:31
Yourself. Well, you might.
32:32
I mean, if you pick the right day, it could happen.
32:34
I don't. It could happen.
32:35
It could probably happen, yes. Do you have religion?
32:38
Yes. I mean, I don't mean a formal
32:44
religion. Do you have a philosophy?
32:46
I guess what I'm saying. I, I think my philosophy
32:49
basically is there has to be something to this.
32:51
I mean, we just can't be put here for the sake of living our
32:54
60708090 a hundred years, whatever it might be and, and
32:58
just end up with nothing at the end of that time after all the
33:01
combat. And I really look at life to a
33:04
certain extent as, as, as combat.
33:07
There has to be be something. I mean, we have to be in a test
33:10
period or there has to be something after this.
33:12
Otherwise it just seems so futile.
33:16
Now, are you metaphysical? No.
33:18
Do you believe that there is a hereafter?
33:20
I believe there probably is a hereafter, yes.
33:24
Do you believe that we come on earth to learn certain lessons
33:27
about life? Well, I believe we come on earth
33:29
maybe as a testing period and maybe for whatever reason, I
33:32
guess again, that goes back to the mind with a 1% of the 3%.
33:36
If we could expand to 3% of the use of the mind, maybe we'd be
33:39
able to figure out what happens afterwards.
33:40
But we probably will not be able to figure that out.
33:44
Since you brought up that thought, you must have been
33:47
given some time to to that idea. Why do you think in 30-4 years
33:54
that you've been brought here? Well, I have done a couple of
34:00
things which maybe on the outside don't appear to be very
34:02
humanitarian, but I think inwardly I think they probably
34:05
are. We have created thousands of
34:08
jobs for people that maybe wouldn't have jobs today.
34:12
We've created, you know, industry in a city which again,
34:16
well, today it's it's thriving and probably considered the
34:19
best. Five years ago, at the time we
34:20
did it, it was not considered to be thriving.
34:23
And in my own way, I suspect that we've just created a
34:26
certain amount of happiness in many houses where instead of
34:29
going on a welfare line or whatever, the people have now
34:31
come home with a nice paycheck who are now working successfully
34:36
in one of our developments. So I think in a sense maybe I
34:40
was put around, I was put on earth to to have fulfilled that
34:45
function. And I think that's an important
34:48
function. Can you?
34:51
I don't like to use the word rationalize, but maybe that is
34:54
the word. You received a great deal of
34:56
criticism when you tore down the Bonnwood building.
35:01
People wanted those wonderful sculptures donated to wherever
35:06
they wanted it to go. And yet you created jobs for
35:10
people on the other hand, by building a brand new edifice.
35:14
How do you reconcile that? Well, I really in that case, I
35:17
reconcile it by saying that the the fact that that building was
35:21
at that location was the only thing that gave the old building
35:24
any value. If that building were in a
35:27
different location in a different city or in a different
35:30
borough or whatever, it would have had no artistic value
35:32
whatsoever. It just happened to be sitting
35:35
at the corner of 5th Ave. and 57th St., and that gave it a
35:38
false value as a building itself.
35:41
The second thing is I do value human life and human safety.
35:46
And having taken those down, I can tell you that if we tried to
35:50
save them, it's very possible. And they were 15 feet high, They
35:53
were about a foot thick of solid concrete and stone.
35:57
And if anybody ever tried to take them down, there was a very
35:59
substantial chance that they would have slipped on the 5th
36:02
Ave. And if that would have happened,
36:03
people would have been very badly hurt and killed below.
36:07
And the process of trying to redeem or trying to save things
36:12
of little or no artistic merit based on some basic criticism,
36:17
getting back to the word criticism, was to me not worth
36:21
the safety of people's lives. That's it.
36:25
Oh absolutely. That'll always take precedent
36:27
with me. It seems to me that anyone who
36:32
has acquired the kind of wealth that you have has had to make
36:37
some compromises. Do you have any regrets?
36:42
About that particular aspect. About that and anything else?
36:46
No, I don't have any regrets about that.
36:48
I, I can tell you just a crazy, crazy thing has happened that
36:53
week. As you have just said, we've
36:55
gotten a tremendous amount of publicity because we ripped down
36:57
the bond with Teller Building and people considered it
36:59
landmark status and people considered it this and that.
37:03
And I would have assumed it would have been negative
37:04
publicity. What's happened is we've gotten
37:07
literally thousands of phone calls because of that publicity
37:09
of people wanting to move into that building.
37:12
So it's had an exact reverse. It's it's a very, it's a
37:15
phenomena as far as I'm concerned, but the human mind is
37:19
the greatest phenomena of all, I suspect.
37:21
But we've gotten actually a very positive response from people.
37:26
People, most people understand that in order to make progress,
37:28
you have to do things which aren't necessarily going to make
37:31
you the most popular boy on the block.
37:33
And that's what we did in that case.
37:35
We had a decision to make and we had to make a decision.
37:37
Is that something you learned all by yourself, or was it
37:40
instilled in you by your father or your grandparents or anyone?
37:44
I think maybe it's something that was instilled and maybe
37:46
it's something that you've learned through a little a
37:48
little bit of trial and error over the years.
37:51
I think this country maybe is a good example.
37:53
I just don't feel the country is going forward in the proper
37:55
direction. We could have, we could have
37:57
made quick decisions and we would have been a lot better off
37:59
than the way we've been sitting around over the last couple of
38:02
years and just watching everybody else do everything.
38:04
And we just sit back and take everybody's abuse.
38:07
We it's a very sad situation that somebody isn't there making
38:13
the decisions and pushing the the right and proper.
38:16
I don't want to use the word buttons, frankly, but pushing
38:19
the right levers so that we can go out and do things as we're
38:22
supposed to be doing them. You are a mover.
38:25
You are a doer. If you could make America
38:29
perfect, how would you do it? Well, I think that America is a
38:33
country that has tremendous, tremendous potential.
38:38
I think that much like the mind, I think that America is using
38:41
very, very little of its potential.
38:43
I feel that this country, with the proper leadership, can go on
38:47
to become what it once was. And I hope, and certainly hope
38:52
that it does go on to be what it what it should be.
38:55
What should it be? Well, it should be a it should
38:58
really be a country that gets the respect of other countries
39:02
just. Respect the most important thing
39:04
in your opinion. Well, respect can lead to other
39:06
things. When you get the respect of the
39:08
other countries, then the other countries tend to do a little
39:11
bit as you do and you can create the right attitudes.
39:15
The the Iranian situation is a case in point.
39:18
That they hold our hostages is just absolutely and totally
39:24
ridiculous. That this country sits back and
39:27
allows a country such as Iran to hold our hostages to my way of
39:31
thinking, is a horror. And I don't think they'd do it
39:36
with other countries. I honestly don't think they'd do
39:39
it with other countries. Obviously you're advocating that
39:41
we should have gone in there with troops, etcetera and
39:44
brought our boys out. I absolutely feel that, yes, I
39:47
don't think there's any question and there's no question in my
39:49
mind. I think right now would be an
39:51
oil rich nation and I believe that we should have done it and
39:55
I'm very disappointed that we didn't do it and I don't think
39:58
anybody would have held us in abeyance.
40:01
I don't think anybody would have been angry with us.
40:04
And we had every right to do it at the time.
40:06
I think we've lost the opportunity, Donald.
40:08
Would you, would you have wanted to be one of those men to have
40:14
gone to Iran, Iran and have taken those fellows out?
40:17
No, I wouldn't have wanted to be, but I would have done it.
40:20
Would you? Absolutely.
40:22
If I were the age, if I were in the middle there.
40:25
Were a lot of those fellas who went for that aborted coup who
40:28
were 34 years old and older? They were your age.
40:32
If you were called upon, would you?
40:34
I know it's easy to say yes, of course I would go.
40:37
But if the phone rang right now and someone from the Selective
40:40
Service had said, Donald, we're taking every young man 34 years
40:44
of age, we're sending him to war, would you go to?
40:47
No, I don't see a war. You see, the war is is.
40:50
This is not a Vietnam situation, fortunately, the war in fact,
40:54
with Iraq. There is a war waging.
40:55
Yes, Oh yes, there is a war and, and it's a war where nobody has
40:59
any tanks, has any guns. It's a war where everyone's
41:01
standing around. That would have been the easiest
41:03
victory we would have ever when I.
41:05
Look at television. I see men being shut up like
41:08
being blown off. You're talking about two non
41:11
existent armies. I mean, Iran has an army
41:13
composed of American equipment without parts and without
41:15
anything else. And Iraq has a very weak army
41:19
and they're just really fighting each other.
41:20
I mean, it's almost hand to hand combat.
41:21
If you see now they've run out. It's it's a sad situation, Rona,
41:25
but it's a situation which ultimately is going to get much
41:27
worse. That little sparkle of war, that
41:31
little sparkle is going to lead, in my opinion, to a much, much
41:34
greater conflict. And I think that's very
41:36
unfortunate. And I think a lot of it has to
41:38
do with this country and the fact that this country is not
41:41
more involved in terms of setting policy in that area.
41:45
Do you think perhaps that the the oil industry is responsible
41:49
for this, as the late Shaw once implied?
41:51
Well, I wouldn't want to criticize the oil industry
41:54
because I wouldn't know enough about it.
41:55
But I can tell you that I think this country is responsible for
41:59
that war by its own weaknesses. I don't think you'd have this
42:03
war if we, if they, again, using the other word, if we were
42:06
respected, properly respected as a country and as a people and as
42:10
a nation, I don't think that you would have the war going on
42:13
right now between Iran and Iraq. I don't think that Iran would
42:17
have our hostages for 10 minutes.
42:19
If they respected this country. I don't believe they would have
42:22
our hostages for 10 minutes. To some people, the ultimate
42:26
goal in life has been becoming the President of the United
42:30
States. Would you like to be the
42:32
President of the United States? I really don't believe I would
42:34
run it, but I would like to see somebody as the president who
42:38
could do the job and there are very capable people in this
42:40
country. Most people who are capable and
42:42
not running for office, most men are frightened of politics
42:45
today. It is a shame, isn't it?
42:46
Yes, it is a shame. The most capable people are not
42:51
necessarily running for political office, and that is a
42:53
very sad commentary in the country.
42:55
They had major corporations and they had this and that, but they
42:58
are not running for political office.
43:00
Why wouldn't someone like yourself run for political
43:02
office? You have all the money that you
43:04
possibly need. You've accomplished a great deal
43:07
even though you are only 34. I know there's a lot of things
43:10
that you possibly can do in the years ahead.
43:12
Why wouldn't you dedicate yourself to public service?
43:15
Because I think it's a very mean life.
43:17
I, I would love and I would, I would dedicate my life to this
43:20
country. But I see it as being a mean
43:22
life. And I also see it that somebody
43:24
with strong views and somebody with the kind of views that are
43:28
maybe a little bit unpopular, which may be right but may be
43:31
unpopular, wouldn't necessarily have a chance of getting elected
43:35
against somebody with no great brain but a big smile.
43:38
And that's a sad commentary for the political process.
43:41
Television, in a strange way, has ruined that process, hasn't
43:44
it? It's hurt the process very much.
43:46
I mean, the Abraham Lincolns of the world, Abraham Lincoln,
43:48
would probably not be electable today because of television.
43:51
He was not a handsome man and he did not smile at all.
43:55
He would not be considered to be a prime candidate for the
43:59
presidency. And that's a shame, isn't it?
44:00
But if all the men are like you, and then when are we going to
44:04
get somebody who might be good? I don't know.
44:06
I hope it's around the corner, but I don't know.
44:08
I really don't know. What I would like to be involved
44:11
in is trying to help choose somebody or working with a group
44:15
of people whereby they put up a candidate who would be
44:18
acceptable to be a presidential, you know, to to be the
44:22
president, the country, if we had the one man.
44:26
And it's really not that big situation.
44:29
You know, people say, well, what could anybody do as president?
44:31
The one man could turn this country around.
44:33
The one proper president could turn this country around.
44:36
I firmly believe that. You think there is one man?
44:40
There is one man that can turn this country around.
44:42
I could tell you, I know a number of people that would be
44:45
excellent presidents. I will not tell you who they
44:47
are, but I know a number of people that could be excellent
44:49
presidents of this country, but they are not running for
44:52
political office. They're not in political office.
44:54
They're extraordinarily brilliant.
44:56
They're very, very competent. They're leaders, they they have
45:01
the respect of everybody and they would be fabulous
45:04
presidents, but they're not running for political office.
45:06
And I think that's very sad. And I think you said it, maybe
45:08
television is the thing that most hurt the political process
45:12
in this country. If you'd lost your fortune
45:16
today, what would you do tomorrow?
45:17
Maybe I'd run for president, I don't know.
45:21
You mean you think you have to be bankrupt without a dime in
45:26
your pocket in order to be a a good president?
45:29
No, I'm only kidding. You know, when I say that, of
45:31
course I'm being somewhat facetious, but I have to tell
45:33
you, a lot of people would vote for you if you were in that
45:35
position because they'd feel sorry for you.
45:37
And again, I think that's a very sad commentary.
45:40
I think that's a very sad commentary.
45:42
That every man who was aspired to the White House in recent
45:44
years has been a millionaire and better.
45:47
Well, that could be, but I don't consider millionaires and better
45:49
if you know Plains, Georgia, I'm not sure if that's necessarily a
45:52
millionaire or better. I really look at, I really look
45:55
at a person's mind and his own individual confidence, not
45:58
necessarily his wallet do. You think there's a distinction
46:02
between millionaires and millionaires?
46:06
Oh, absolutely. There's a great distinction.
46:09
What is the distinction? I mean, a millionaires today are
46:12
are they've done a study that they're 500,000 millionaires in
46:16
the United States and this and that.
46:19
Well, I look at really, again, I don't like to look at the
46:22
distinction between wealth and wealth because once you attain a
46:25
certain wealth, it all doesn't really matter.
46:27
I really like to look at the individual characteristics of a
46:29
person and to see whether or not that person is really what I
46:33
like a person to be do. You think wealth?
46:36
Corrupts. No.
46:38
I think it can, but I don't think it does in all cases.
46:42
Certainly can corrupt. Freud said that there were two
46:46
things in life, love and work. If you had to choose one, which
46:52
would you choose? I think I don't think I could
46:54
choose one. I think I'd choose both and I
46:56
think they can both work hand in hand.
46:58
In fact, I think your love can be increased and I think your
47:00
work can be increased by the other.
47:02
I believe they can each increase the value of the other.
47:05
But if you had to choose one, if it was a life and death
47:08
situation, which one would you choose?
47:11
I would probably choose love you would.
47:15
I think so, yes. Despite the fact that you spend
47:18
all your time working, achieving, creating.
47:22
Well, you know, when I say love, I'm also saying it in the
47:25
positive sense that I also consider my work to be love.
47:28
So I I assume that I can get away with that little little
47:31
answer and we can make you leave it at that.
47:35
Great wealth means power and influence.
47:38
How do you view it and how do you use it?
47:41
Yeah. Well, I'm not sure that it does
47:42
mean power and influence. I think it means that you can
47:44
live the way you want to live without anybody looking over
47:47
your shoulder necessarily. I'm not sure that it means
47:49
power, or I'm not sure that it means influence.
47:50
I think it can lead to power and it can lead to influence if you
47:53
use it in a certain way and if that's what you're looking for
47:56
and if you have the right up here.
47:59
But I'm not really sure that great wealth means power or
48:03
influence. People say the most powerful
48:06
people in the world are those who want anonymity.
48:10
Do you agree? I think there's a large, I think
48:12
to a large extent that's true, but I'm not sure that I fully
48:15
agree with it. I'm really not sure that I fully
48:18
agree with that, Donna. Obviously you probably don't,
48:22
otherwise you wouldn't be here. Yeah, well, I don't.
48:25
I don't really, I care about it, frankly.
48:30
I mean, I, I never think of it one way or the other in terms of
48:33
whether I'm recognized or whether I'm not recognized.
48:35
It really doesn't matter to me very much, frankly, Really.
48:38
How would you like to be remembered?
48:40
Well, as somebody that's contributed something to the
48:42
United States and to the city of New York and to the various
48:45
other places that I'm going and, and somebody that's done a
48:50
little bit better than other people and what he does.
48:56
Thank you. Thank you, Rhonda very much.
48:58
Thank you. Have we just about done it?
49:03
Just stands on the job this way. You are excellent.
49:07
I have to tell you. You are very, very good.