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61. Recognizing and Preventing Misconduct in Financial Advisory with Dr. Moira Somers · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty evident.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Which is amazing to me.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: But at this point, it's not in the in the regulation.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Relationships.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Try to avoid them.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because the more you become embroiled in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, where sometimes you have to say, you know, hard things.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: You have to deliver hard truths.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meetings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I'm having a fangirl moment, although I'm not supposed to, but I am.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've already told her I'm having a fangirl moment.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I am joined by Dr.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Moira Summers, a clinical consultant and just really a fantastic human.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to spend any more time.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to get to like all the good things and let Moira do her thing and share everything.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: But Moira, first, welcome to the show.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here with me.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a joy.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, wonderful.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you and I have been chatting kind of before we hit record, just around it's like a good problem and a bad problem of all the great things we could talk about.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there are far too many things uh that we we could talk about, but sadly we had to pick one, at least for today's purposes.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so today, for those of you that are listening, today we're gonna be talking about misconduct.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm hoping that like some doom kind of like dreary music's not.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, right, is like playing in the background.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I had Jim Grubman on, he I have to go back and listen, but he did like the Austin Powers, like the Pinkies like thing.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like imagining his face doing that right now.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's making me it's making me laugh.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like there should be some kind of background music, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about like ethical misconduct within at least financial uh advising.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so more, let's just kind of start maybe like there.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about when advisors hear, you know, advisor misconduct.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine, I don't know if it's two stories, but there's probably a story that comes to mind around who are like the advisors that might engage in misconduct.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if maybe we can just, you know, kind of distill some of this around what is misconduct first, and then we can just kind of go from there if that's okay.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this is all arising out of a project that I've been working on for the past couple of years, together with a solicitor colleague from the UK who's made her career prosecuting financial advisors.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now she runs a financial advising firm.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, we've we come at this from so many different levels.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm not a financial advisor, but I'm the one who is often called upon to work with people who've been hauled up before the regulators and with their victims.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so together we kind of cover the waterfront in terms of understanding the victimology, the nature of the people who get embroiled in this and how it goes.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we could have taken any number of approaches to the problem, but our hearts were both really heavy for early career professionals and their managers, because those are the ones that really, really break our hearts.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so the book is very much oriented towards helping people in the field understand what it is that they're about to step into, like the whole territory, which is hugely varying, as you know, there are extraordinarily ethical firms, and there are places that just want to suck you dry and really just release you with no protections whatsoever.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the people who end up in real trouble have themselves been victimized by unsavory bosses.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So our our hope in writing the book was both to protect those early career professionals by giving them a heads up, but also to help the firms that they will go into create cultures of integrity so that it's easier to surface mistakes, it's easier to make those, you know, visions, mission statements that can just be performative, uh, to make them really living guideposts.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, that was a mixed metaphor, but to make them things that really make a difference in the life of the firm.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I which I have no doubts that you have succeeded in that hope, at least of appealing to that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guess when I think about misconduct, granted, I'm not an advisor, um, but as a mental health professional, like we also have guidelines around what misconduct looks like.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime I've done any type of, you know, ethics, CEs, um like the do's and don'ts, or when I'm supervising pre-licensed clinicians and we talk about ethics, you know, there's the obvious things like don't sleep with your clients.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: That seems kind of like a no-brainer.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are some obvious things that come to mind around like the do's and the don'ts.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I know, and I would imagine that this is what you know, your work with this book is centered on.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just black and white, the do's and the don'ts.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we talk about, when you're talking about misconduct here, when you're thinking about that early professional, I mean, maybe I should ask, like, is it just the black and white kind of do's and don'ts?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it is it more nuanced here when you're thinking about misconduct?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Even, you know, you and I share this mental health background.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And what we know is that you can put people through ethics courses and they can easily pass multiple choice exams on what is the right thing to do.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there have been some really interesting studies of mental health professionals, both again, early career and seasoned professionals.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when you put scenarios in front of them and say, I mean, juicy scenarios, like you're doing therapy with a client, and in the course of that therapy, they've they've told you that they're in embroiled in an extramarital affair, and you suddenly realize that the person they're having the affair with is your sister's husband.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: What is the right thing to do?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's so juicy.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then, and so, you know, what's the right thing to do?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like keep your mouth shut.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then what would you do?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: 50% of new therapists and 30% of seasoned therapists say they would not do the right thing.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Know what to do, but they acknowledge they would not do it.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: They would interfere.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because ethics is both a head thing and it's a heart thing.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's such a great distinction.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't equip people for what to do when scenarios unfold before us that tug at our hearts and our values are pulled in one direction, and the codes of conduct are firmly in another direction, and we don't know what to do with those values conflicts, and we don't have anywhere to go with them.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So anywhere we don't have people to talk to about them.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it might even be not so much a values conflict, but just really strong emotions, Ashley.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I do the ethically right thing, like I don't step in, I'm not gonna act on insider information.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody else in this chain of information sharing is acting on it.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a chump.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the absolute loser that I'm the only one not getting rich off this.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, who do you go to in that moment?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you disclose this dilemma?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you go for supervision and guidance?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you ask for it?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Every one of the steps in that chain will determine the outcome.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll determine a different outcome.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so in our book, we have very juicy case studies of people who've done the right thing and people who've done the wrong thing, and talked about what happened when when they didn't have the right people to talk to and they didn't present the cases in the right way, because there is a right way and a wrong way to do this, and what and what you need to do in order to strengthen yourself to guard your boundaries.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because most of the people that we feature, and indeed most of the people who come before the regulators, and boy, did we spend a lot of time with them, most of the people who come before them are not this, you know, the slathering psychopaths.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: They are one of the original titles for our book, actually, was had the word stumble in it.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us stumble into misconduct, and then we slide, we slide across lines because we're not even aware.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that they're there.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Would it be okay?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned as part of the book, there are some case studies.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so just wondering, could we talk about maybe some of these?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to call them like small, like these like smaller decision points, or what are maybe some of the ways from an ethical misconduct place?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing like in advisory practices that maybe some advisors wouldn't realize falls under like ethical misconduct?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious, like what you found and what you're seeing.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a great deal of it just has to do with the fact that most advisors believe that they know the products that they are being taught to sell.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: That they are qualified to sell them, they're qualified to give advice, that they know the clients, and that they're not facing any kind of conflict of interest or pressure to promote one product over the other.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we just know that in a great deal of cases that is not so.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when when advisors end up in the courtroom on the stand having to defend their knowledge of the product, very rapidly becomes clear that they've just been relying on a prospectus and they don't have the statistical knowledge to understand any of that stuff.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: They are not equipped.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Some are.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you have a CFA, you could lead the course.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you are working in a bank and you have one mutual fund license, this is a very different scenario.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the challenges is, of course, the fact that who counts as a financial services professional?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let us count the waves.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: This could be somebody with a PhD in math who's developing cryptocurrency.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: This could be somebody who's just out of high school and is working, as I said, with one license, either to sell insurance or mutual funds, and is now client-facing in front of a bank and is being pressured to either sell that product or push a credit card.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so the fact is that people are often incentivized early on to do things that are not necessarily in clients' best interest.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's heartbreaking.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: It is heartbreaking and scary.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is scary.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: As a consumer, like the more you get into this research, the more you go, oh my.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Is the mattress stuffed with money really a bad idea?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, maybe grandma had it right all along.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, listen, more if I come knocking, please let me.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really good at gardening.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good at gardening.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can contribute in in that way.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it it is scary.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and it is scary, but you know, not that we want to just evoke fear, right?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Come back, come back to sensibility.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact is that not only is it buyer beware, but it needs to be seller beware.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: That if you come into this area of work and it's a beautiful area to work in, you can do such good, and you can do well for yourself and for your own family.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: But you do have to be discerning and you do have to be aware of the whole array of the marketplace.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to preferentially and deliberately navigate your way towards the ethical options.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that means educating yourself, knowing really how to understand and respect the limits of your own competency, seeking out the highest qualifications that you can get, networking, serving on professional committees so that you just understand what's out there and how can you be better?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And who should you be hanging with in order to get there?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a great example, just around what you're offering your lane, like staying in your lane.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know some advisors, you know, CFP professionals, I've seen chatter, right, around offering tax advice, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing how to stay in your lane or even uh around estate.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not an estate attorney.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So just being mindful around just the advice that you give and what is your lane and what is not your lane there with clients, I guess in that vein, but also thinking about are there any like relational, you know, kind of ethics issues or like vulnerabilities that maybe advisors should also kind of keep in mind here.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that part of the way and uh part of the reason that we often stumble is because of an incredible desire to help.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so we, you know, we've got lots of different kinds of intellectual capital, many, especially if you come into it later in life and you've come from a uh a different career or you've got related life experience, you've been through a divorce, you've raised kids, you've helped a dementing parent navigate through.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got these adjacent areas of experience and sometimes frank expertise, but that wasn't what you were contracted to provide.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so being able to be clear about what the scope of your engagement is, and when are you offering something that is truly within the umbrella, the rubric of your engagement?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when are you saying, I'm I'm not speaking out of this, out of from my services as a CFP professional, but this is from my related area, or I can give you some guidance, but you know, I really do suggest that you follow up with an estate attorney on this, on this sort of thing.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is one of the most common things that ends up getting people in trouble with the regulators, uh, with their clients is giving out-of-scope advice.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's you know, it's hardly ever maliciously motivated.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it comes from a really good place.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're more likely to be triggered into doing that if you're tired.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're depleted in in in various ways, and if work is becoming the place where you get filled up more so than any other domain of your life.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes sometimes home life is just hard.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe I'm maybe I'm leaking here, but I think many people find home life hard at certain points.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in contrast, work life can just feel like, oh, I can plant my flag in the soil, and people think I'm competent and that I'm not an idiot, unlike my teenagers, and and they thank me for what I've done.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can yeah, you can end up kind of overindexing on that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so when people start praising you and thanking you, or or demonstrating their appreciation for you, that is one of the the most common ways that people end up crossing the line.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so you mentioned earlier, you know, don't sleep with your client.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty evident.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, that actually isn't an ethical guideline for CFPs.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Which is amazing to me.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's we might still say that's not a really good idea.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But uh at this point it's not in the in the regulation, you know, having in psychology or psychiatry and medicine and in these other areas, it's called, you know, you mustn't have dual relationships and try to avoid them.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's because the more you become embroiled in in people's personal lives, the harder it is to maintain professional objectivity.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so the, you know, those same considerations, of course, apply to CFP professionals or to other kinds of financial professionals, accountants, or sometimes you have to say hard things.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You have to deliver hard truths.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned about burnout and I'm home life maybe being difficult.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm even thinking about advisors who are overworked.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're recording this right now in the spring.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just past tax season, the deadline, and or surge meetings for those that practice, you know, surge meetings, not structure.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know just even in my own life, like sometimes when I'm go, go, go and like work, work, work, I'm not as I may not be as careful or thoughtful around things.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I guess what I'm getting at here and what I'm wondering is are there some like early warning signs?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for if someone's listening and they're like, I don't, I don't really know if like might be in any kind of trouble.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't sell product.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like my family, I guess.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I think life's easy.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: But like, are there maybe some early just signs that an advisor that we could offer them to where they might reflect on that and go, oh, I hadn't thought about maybe like with this situation, ooh, maybe I sh maybe that's a sign or maybe I should should do that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: There are different signs for different kinds of risks, but just for this one, you know, for burnout, if you find that um it's just increasingly difficult to care, which is the opposite problem of what we've described.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: If your empathy is is down, um if you're feeling more noticing more contempt or disdain, that's an issue.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the categories that we talk about uh in terms of people who are at risk of misconduct is one that we've dubbed collapse incompetence.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So these are people who may even have been kind of rock stars, but as the as more and more was placed on them, every bridge has a capacity, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Every engineering student wears a ring to remind them of what happens when you exceed the capacity of a of a physical structure.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It it would be good if we had some sort of ability to notice when we're Exceeding the capacity of our psychological capabilities, but we don't.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so what are those indicators?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: People staying late, people, you know, look at your calendar.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Are you are you abandoning the things that you said when you've set out your New Year's resolution?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Are you actually going to the gym?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Are you using your gym membership?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are you keeping up with date night?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: If we did a food diary of the last, you know, 48 or 72 hours, would you be mortified if that got posted?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would personally coming off of just traveling.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: What are the indicators that you've actually been attending to other domains of your life?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: What does the calendar reflect?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is often the the most important thing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: But also, what would your what could your staff say about you?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would what could your colleagues say about you?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And more important, do you ever take the time to ask, how are we doing?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: How am I doing?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: One of the recommendations that we have for managers is that you make a point of having a 30-minute conversation once a week with each of your direct reports.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't do it that often, then how often could you do it?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Could you do it every other week?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because that ability to just say, you know, really, how are you?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Many times over the course of a year allows this level of attunedness to develop.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: You start seeing the signs.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's wonderful if you can create the kind of workplace culture where without shame or blame or judgment, people can just say, Hey, are you okay?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: What could I take off your plate for you?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned earlier talking about, you know, with firms, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've been talking kind of probably more to like advisors as like an individual, but I do want to take a moment and kind of in that vein, like, let's talk a little bit about firms and firm culture and you know what type of firm culture allows for maybe that slippery slope.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the ones that aren't meeting regularly with their direct reports?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are there other things that maybe allow for drift, I will say, to happen unintentionally?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some of it is very intentional.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: We highlight a study that shows that some firms differentially hire advisors who've been let go in other firms for misconduct.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: They are preferentially recruiting people who've been fired for misconduct.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think that signals?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think happens in those forms?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: It like my eye, I kind of do like the eye twitch thing because it's like what?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you, Moira.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And also simultaneously, I'm having like a WGF moment.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like exactly.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not everybody shares the notion that ethical conduct is good in financial services.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is where me being very naive comes into play, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I will own that.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just as a teaser, I I talk about one of my first experiences as a clinical supervisor involving an intern and cocktail wieners and a pool.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: And thinking that we all share certain standards and finding out that no, in fact, we don't.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: We don't.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that things that we hold to be self-evident are not, in fact, self-evident.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why it's really important going back to those early career choices that who you choose to work for is one of the most consequential decisions you will ever make.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you start hearing people talk derisively about compliance departments, like red flag.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I know there's a whole sort of ironic or it's, you know, it's meant to be humorous, you know, the Department of Business Prevention, you know, all of these kinds of labels that get that get put on them.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's beyond just sort of a momentary disgruntlement and really there is a subculture of do your best to avoid these people and to hoodwink them, then get the heck out.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because you you are not saved by I was told to do it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in the very first chapter of the book, we talk about um somebody who, you know, within the first year of beginning what seemed like a really promising career, he lost, you know, he was banned for a lifetime because he got hooked into a corrupt firm.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And again, looking at the categories of people who end up involved in misconduct, there's the stubb stumblers, there's the collapse incompetence, which some which includes actually people who end up dementing, you know, they come down with, or people who become clinically depressed or develop alcohol and substance abuse.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if those people happen to be in solo practice, oh, it's so much harder to find them.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if they are in a firm and we've got a way of you know, you know, there's a psychologically safe way and mechanisms for reporting or whistleblowing, we've got to train each other on how to do that.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: How can you do that?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the ethical, we know the ethical thing to do, we just aren't trained in how to do it.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: That leads me to one of the, I guess it probably will likely end up being one of the last questions, sadly.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it to be.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: But for advisors who are listening and like want to take this seriously, and and they are on the side of, I will say, I don't like to frame it as like good and evil or good and bad spectrum, but like they're on the side of like, I want to do right.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to know a little bit more about, you know, my own maybe ethical blind spots.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Apart from maybe your fantastic book that's going to be coming out, like what would you recommend for them?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where can they go?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Especially, I think, if they're in like smaller, like solo practices.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the important things to do is to simply read the reports that come out from the regulators, whoever covers you and the regulatory, like look at those detailed case studies that come out.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: What happened there?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Who is under investigation and why and how did that happen?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, those represent only the smallest, smallest percentage.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of the, when you talk about blind spots, Ashley, for me, one of the most sobering findings that comes from the field of behavioral ethics is the fact that we are unbelievably reluctant to consider the fact that it could be us.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to think it could be them.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You've heard of this better than average effect that all of us want to, you know, think that we're smarter than average and that we're better drivers than average and we're better, blah, blah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it turns out that that better than average effect is on steroids for morality.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if this book were about don't be a Bernie Madoff, it would be a really short book.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we can give firms that care could screen people, screen people using standard uh psychological tests, just screen them for psychopathy, do a criminal records check.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Bob's your uncle.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: There it is, done.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: But but it's so much more nuanced than that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact is that the snakes in suits actually turn out to have very many of them turn out to have really good track records as CEOs, uh, and until they don't.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you look at studies of white-collar criminals, the ones who do get caught, the ones who do cross the lines, turns out most of them were uh not aware that they were crossing the line.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: That it was just impulsive.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't this, hmm.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I if I weigh the pros and the cons and the cost benefit, I'm gonna carefully think about whether this is worth it.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Turns out much of it was just impulsive.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was responding to that, like, oh, somebody asked me to do that, or shoot, I'm not making targets.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm just gonna doctor the books, and then next month I'm gonna make it up, and no one will ever have to know.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get in deeper and deeper and deeper.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: What resonates me with me, I think most, and it takes me a little bit back to my own childhood, is my dad, my parents would say, like, you are not special.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense of meaning that, like, you're not special enough to get out of something that, you know, or to be held accountable.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're getting pulled over, like for speeding, like what makes you think that you're so special that you can just, you know, get like you are not above anyone else was a lot of the messaging, you know, there.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now there's some downside to hearing ultimately precious, maybe anyway.
• 31:57
  unknown: Right.
• 31:58
  unknown: Right.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: This like dichotomy.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know if that's the reason I became a therapist.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's many reasons, I think, from there, but like that resonates with me because I just think like on a human level, like, you know, I see it, like I hear it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, that will never happen to me.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would never like do that going, you know, or I'm am better than average, as you were saying.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so just from like a place of humility, I feel like just taking the time to pause, even and like asking just some thoughtful questions around how to process or how to, you know, how do we proceed like with this, or how do we, you know, navigate this?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I guess it sounds simple in my mind of like just pause.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I know going, you know, you said like people act on pulsity and they're just going and doing.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So easier said than done.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, well, it turns out that pausing is incredibly powerful.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's the very same thing that protects us from cognitive cognitive bias, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as Daniel Kahneman said, nobody wants to do it, right?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and the only way, you know, the best way to do it is to have a thinking partner who says, slow down there, buddy.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about this.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: If we were wrong about this, what would it look like?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: What's the opposite of this thing look like?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like there, there's a series of there are questions that you can regularly ask.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And those can be not only to protect yourself against investing errors, but also against ethical errors.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you can do that, you can make that part of your firm culture.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: We do that, you know, in the in the firm that I'm part of.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure that there's some eye rolling going on behind my back, but you know, just just the other day we had the, well, is that the ethical thing to do here?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are we sure?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: What could it look like if we did that differently?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it does feel remarkable to to be able to come through the other side and say, you know, in the long run, this is who we want to be, this is who we want to show up.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we do need training on how to be defiant sometimes, how to stand in the in the face of a culture that says, you know, in some cultures that say profit is the only is the highest and the only aim of this firm or of this of this culture.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is the only thing that we're supposed to be doing here is maximizing profit or loyalty to the boss is the strong, is the thing that we are going to reward above all.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and instead, to be looking at what are the other things that we value.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those are really important.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a wonderful, wonderful way to wrap us up thinking about those values, right?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the people, who do we want to be and who do we want to be attached to and in company associated with?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or if people are like, oh my goodness, this is really fascinating and interesting.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never thought about ethics or even misconduct this way.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, or if they're like, where can I get more Dr.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Moore or summers or summers in my life?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where can they find you?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: What are you up to?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are you working on?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: How can people engage with you?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the uh my new book, The Fault Lines of Finance, is coming out on September 6th.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure when the podcast will air, but sometime around that date, I think.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a previous book, the um it's called Advice That Sticks.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And both of those are written for financial professionals, and occasionally might see me on this speaking uh circuit, or I think the show notes might have some websites that you can get hold of me.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we include all of those.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your insight.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is not an easy topic, and yet it was very easy to talk to you about.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I appreciate just your generosity, the honesty and care that you brought to the conversation.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very helpful, very valuable.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you that are listening now, I want to thank you for allowing Moira and I into your ears and into your mind.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if this conversation, if it stirred up something in you that maybe you'd like to pay attention to a little bit, I would encourage you to check out some of the resources that she mentioned, check out some of the points, the tips there that were suggested.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if you find yourself just having future like curiosities or wonderings, like feel free to send myself a message or to send Moira a message as well.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I will go ahead and volunteer her uh for that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's smart or wise, uh, but reach out to her.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she is a lovely human.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to continue the conversation through social media, you can find us.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can find uh me on LinkedIn where I post daily insights, almost daily insights around the intersection of financial planning and human understanding.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can also check out our YouTube channel where my partner Meg and I, we have been posting some content there.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Really good stuff, although I am incredibly biased.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it is equally as entertaining as it is informative, but go ahead and check us out there on YouTube.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, listen, what I'd really love more than anything, you can check out us on those places, but I would love if you would subscribe to the podcast.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead and hit that check mark, that subscribe button there, so that you never miss an episode like this one.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, remember, remember, my friends, for those of you that are listening, you probably know what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway because it's always important.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
• 38:21
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• 38:28
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• 38:32
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• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.