Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 506. 9 Nonprofit Trends That Matter in 2024: Retention is an inside job. - Jon McCoy, Becky Endicott, Evan Wildstein, and Michelle Flores Vryn

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506. 9 Nonprofit Trends That Matter in 2024: Retention is an inside job. - Jon McCoy, Becky Endicott, Evan Wildstein, and Michelle Flores Vryn · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: And this is the we Are For Good podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So welcome to the Good Community.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So let's get started.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: What's up, Maggie?
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy that we get to talk about retention today, and y'all guess what?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: It's a little break for you, because we are not talking about donor retention Today.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: We're talking about you and we are knee-deep into the nine nonprofit trends that matter for 2024.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: And these are really the themes that we see that are really cresting over the sector right now.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: They are really what we call like tipping points, and those who are brave enough to see it and can grab on to making adjustments, making changes within themselves and their organizations, are going to be the ones winning, not just in 2024, but in the long game.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: So, john, I want you to like talk a little bit about this trend, because it is extremely near and dear to our hearts.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: It really is and it's something that we've lifted.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you can't hang around fundraising shops and not talk about retention right, it's kind of the lifeblood of all of our development programs.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: But I think the eyebrow quirk moment you know that we've had in the last year plus of conversations is retention is the elephant in the room.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: But it's not just about our donors.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: All of the data and we'll talk a little bit about that points to we're having a hard time as a sector retaining more donors than we're keeping, but we're talking about retaining the people inside of our mission.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: We feel like it's like this piece that no one's talking about is retention inside of our walls.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: We're going to call this trend retention is an inside job, which means how can we focus internally at fixing and creating missions that are vibrant?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: So think back to all the conversations we've had about building a culture that's magnetic or a marquee culture, like Mark Miller and Ted Vaughn came into our house to talk about.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: How can we create that type of a retention culture that becomes a magnet to people outside of our walls?
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: And, in the same way, how can we expect a donor to stay if we can't even keep our staff wanting to stay and wanting to pour in and build their careers, and so I think this is the elephant that we want to talk about.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Whether it's sparkling or not Like this is a topic we want to lean into more and more this season specifically.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about some of the key takeaways around this theme and if you've been following the fundraising effectiveness project, that data keeps showing us that we continue to lose more people than we are retaining, and we have another data set in a survey that we're going to be talking about with our incredibly special guest and experts who are going to be diving into this, and I think the sector is just starting to like sort of sit up and take a little notice, and the question that we all need to be asking ourselves is how are we building a culture that retains and grows our talent from within?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: How many of us are just tired of looking externally for consultants, for tech answers, when really the people who understand our mission we say this all the time are right there on the front lines?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So if we're going to build a retention culture, we're going to need a couple things.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: So the first one is from our good friend.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Tim Serentonio has this great quote and he says that remember that data is people.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: We all know our retention numbers for our donors.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Are we looking at those retention numbers for our own staff?
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Are we talking about that as frequently with our board, with our people, with our rabbit fans about that as much as we are our donors, because those are the people powering the mission.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: We also need to get curious.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: If we're going to build a retention culture, we need to start paying attention to our people and not just asking, hey, how are you doing and hearing, I'm fine, and their head goes back down.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: We need to really create a habit of checking in and going beyond just those basic check the box things, because people are not okay.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: We understand that we're in a capacity crisis and it's going to require having some tough conversations, some empathetic conversations, and the last thing I would offer is that you really need to build an intentional plan and culture around retention.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: We had an excellent podcast about this with Isla Malik, who, the Venture Leadership Consulting Group, does such an amazing job of infusing this into organizations, and Isla goes in how you can break this down, how do you put rituals in place, how do you have this attitude of gratitude and how do you express it to not just your donors and your volunteers, but to your actual people?
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: That can be game changing.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, that Isla episode is fire and that is one of them that we've included in our specific playlist around retention as an inside job, and I mentioned some of the others, but this is all available in the show notes, because the heart of these episodes is not only just to get you inspired and maybe a little fired up about the topic, but to start unpacking solutions and ways to get activated, click through that and kind of queue up some ideas.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: That's going to get you really amped about retention.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: And we don't want you to just think this is John and I's thoughts.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: So we went to the community and we were diving really into this topic and asking the community how retention has affected them.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the prompts that we put out there which was probably my favorite prompt and it came from Evan Wildstein has said what's a traditional nonprofit darling project that you're willing to sunset in order to redirect financial resources toward finding and retaining talent, which, yes, we want you to know, that you have to put money into finding and retaining people.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And there was just such an overwhelming amount of chatter around sunsetting, high stress, low net events.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I mean I want to give a shout out to Paul McLaughlin, who said that they retired their gala and moved to something significantly less stressful and they were completely shocked to find that it was as equally successful as the gala.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: It was just reimagined.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is the power of growth mindset.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: It's not set in stone, like there's ways to evolve and grow.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And then we got a shout out Lindsay Fuller.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: She's in your playlist too and we're going to talk about her work through the teaching.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Well, she chimed in with this beautiful quote.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I tell you one of my biggest mantras I pay people, not rent.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Bye, bye, brick and mortar.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Hello, powerful compensation and benefits.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: We can have more of those kind of conversations in this space.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: She's like leading the charge and doing such great work.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: And then Brooke Haudenafield she's with Slingshot.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: She said choose people over task every day.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: And I think bringing back the humanity to our work, understanding that we're humans and treating each other like that is going to really connect with some of the data points we're seeing that we're going to unpack, with Evan and Michelle coming up on the episode too.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about who's doing it well, because I know you're probably saying this may be something that we really want to dive into, but we don't know where to start.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: And, friends, please reach out to any of these individuals that we ever mentioned here.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: We are all growth mindset.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: We are failing forward.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: We are bringing each other along, and the first one I want to mention you've already kind of lifted it is the Mother Cabrini Health Foundation.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Please go back to that Shannon Lucas episode and listen to what they're doing to build in support for their team investing in therapy, investing in their mental health and wellness.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Having bigger conversations about what leave means, I think the teaching well, you mentioned Lindsay Fuller is doing extraordinary things.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: That is also in the playlist.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I want to throw a curious one out here, especially for you, John, as a retired barista or I guess you're not retired You're doing it every day.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Once a barista, always a barista.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, do you?
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: know Terrani.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Am I even saying that right?
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Terrani, oh, it's like a flavor syrup, it's like the beautiful syrup.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the flavor syrup.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Are you aware that they have the number one employee retention in the country?
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And it's because they are constantly having a conversation around are you happy?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Is this fulfilling you?
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: What else can we take off your plate?
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Where do we need to reorganize something?
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: There is a constant flow of communication about how can they help their people rise to their fullest potential.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: And then they follow them and say how can we help get you to your next great job?
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And guess what?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Those people want to stay.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: It's incredible.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: And then last shout out to a nonprofit, teen Lifeline tiny little nonprofit in Arizona.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: They're just incredibly small nonprofit that is excellent at retention and they use tools like Culture Index to be really mindful of their hiring and positional fit.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: So bravo to them.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: So I mean we're throwing a lot at you, but I feel like the B team compared to who is coming in as our special guest on this episode.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: We are totally the JV team because we have brought in some powerhouses and I want you all to just hold on to your butts because this conversation with our experts is going to take this conversation to the next level.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: It is my positive joy to be able to introduce Evan Wildstein and Michelle Flores Vren.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: They've been on the podcast before.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: They are storied alums and y'all.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: When they talk we listen.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Evan is a non-profit here with 20 years of experience in fundraising and strategy.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: He has worked with amazing organizations like Juilliard School, asia Society, rice University and the Houston Grand Opera, and he is such a fabulous fundraiser.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: He understands the heart and the mind.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I could not have this conversation without saying you absolutely need to go check out his book on servant leadership, which is the 2.0 of servant leadership.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: We will lock that up in the show notes.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: He is also a native New Yorker and lives in Houston with his amazing wife Hyouda and his darling son Zane.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: And, of course, you could not have this conversation with Evan without bringing in Michelle Flores Vren, cfre, who has been a 15-year non-profit fundraiser in the social change space.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: She's worked in communication, she's worked in fundraising and if you're following any of her thought leadership or Evans on LinkedIn, you're going to see all of this play out.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: She's also on the boards of Mission Capital and AFP Global and she regularly presents a marketing strategy and non-profit innovation.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I cannot begin to overemphasize how incredible these humans are, but I will not emote because we got a lot to get to.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: So, my friends, welcome back to the podcast.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: We're a little excited you're here, good to be here, excited to be here as a duo, and you all have such a heart and passion for this topic and I think the power of thought leadership is.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: We were watching your data unfold.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you for gathering data, by the way, and for anyone that took the survey that Evan and Michelle put out.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you, guys so much, and, if you haven't, we're going to link it up in the show notes again because we want more data.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: But it was because of this passion and this red flag that you were waving, saying there is something inherently wrong here and we need to talk about it and we need to double click on it.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: So I want to kick it to you, give some tone setting to us.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: We just love to hear you all go deeply into how you became aware of this topic, why you kind of dove into it and tell us what you're seeing within your own organizations and communities right now as it relates to staff retention.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one thing that both Evan and myself pride ourselves on are being nonprofit practitioners.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: So we really feel and are a part of that on the ground culture.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: We have so many anecdotes just from all of our connections and networks and I think both of us were beginning to feel like this collective rethinking of is nonprofit work working for us?
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: And we were thinking this we hear people coming to us asking these questions and when it becomes just such a cyclical conversation, you begin to know like there's a here here, right, like there's something happening collectively.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: And we also felt like there's a lot of surveys.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: People do a lot of surveys, but most of them aren't from a practitioner standpoint, and also we felt like they weren't really getting to like the heart of what people were feeling.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: And so I like to sum it up, just from all the anecdotes and my own personal experiences, of saying I think we're feeling that people used to fit their life around work and now they're fitting their work around life, and that makes us act differently and we're really beginning to ask ourselves like, is this job, this culture, is it Good for me?
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: And I think that many of us are saying no and walking away from things that maybe five years ago we wouldn't have walked away from, which, on one hand, is a great thing.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: On the other hand, it creates this new trend and massive action that we need to account for in our nonprofit systems.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're hitting the nail on the head of why we love and value both of your insights so much.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're not following these two on LinkedIn, by the way, they provide this kind of thought provoking conversation, and Evan will bring in some dad jokes too, which is going to help the humorous situation.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: But I love that y'all are speaking directly from the inside, because it's easy for us, as podcasters, to go to people that have.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: They already have the headshot, they already have the bio ready and they're ready to do with their talking points.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: But to talk to people in the work and doing it and wrestling through the hard questions is my super value y'all's counsel and your wisdom on this.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: So, evan, I want to kick it to you to talk about what are some of the unique challenges about this whole retention idea that the nonprofit space is really struggling with.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, what makes it unique to our space, and so then we need to pour into you know, we just need better bagels at the office parties.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: We need a slide.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: You are so a New Yorker If?
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: you've picked bagels.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: I know I do want to really push a bit more on what Michelle said that you know what worked for us before and let's think about all the things about onboarding, about pay, about things like that.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: Michelle and I come very strongly from the philanthropic sort of the Marcoms philanthropy space but we've also done a ton of board work.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: We've done other things and the things where you know in the past.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Let's say, program director, one leaves end of December.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: You know they were making $65,000 a year.
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Forever that person would leave.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: You'd see the job reposted and the next person in that iteration that position will be posted at like $58,000.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: You know we used to go down.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: Now we're in this market where you know I love this minor gift officer one I wish that title existed.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: Minor gift officer one, you know leaves December 31,.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: They were making 71 grand a year and they left because of you know myriad reasons.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: But they said, you know, I really we have childcare and we have things and like I can't quite swing this, like is there anyway?
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: You know we've been talking about a raise for a while.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Can we talk about a salary increase?
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: Can you do 5,000 more?
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: You know powers that be say can't do it.
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: Budgets been set can't do it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: $71,000.
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: Minor gift officer leaves December 31.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Position gets posted haphazardly and then they're looking for an $80,000 candidate and I've heard people say I just reapplied for my old job because I had to do that and this doesn't happen a lot, I think.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: But I've heard people say I just left and reapplied for my job and I came back as a boomerang employee just for the money.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: And it's like, think about, you know, penelope Burke and others have all this research on the cost of like departed fundraisers and the hard indirect cost of program people leaving.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: All those relationships go Y'all.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: We just need to have some.
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: Really, we make these complicated things like budgets and expenses.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: We make them complex and there's a difference in complexity and complication and we just make it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: You know we've got to go to the board for that or something.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: It's like I see you spending $6000 a year on these bad office bagels.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: I know I made that joke earlier, but can we just think about how to redirect some?
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: of those things and I that stuff we're seeing.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: I think Michelle and I have been around enough to have heard that anecdotally from people and for this particular research it's weird calling it research, but like we just wanted to know what people would say when given the anonymous opportunity to do it and in a safe space, we don't.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: You mentioned LinkedIn and stuff.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: Go on LinkedIn, see how many practitioners are getting as loud as Michelle and I.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: Maybe we're stubborn, maybe you're something, but Michelle and I all the time here, like how can you say that?
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Like isn't someone going to from your job or from your board going to see you pushing that?
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: Like I heard someone say I was on one of Tasha and David's.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: Then on Profit Hive, I was on one of their chats and like the person I was chatting with said, gosh, even around for 2021 years, you have pushback capital that I don't have, and this is someone who's been doing their work for five to six years.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: I'm like we need to hear.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: You know, we older folk don't know what y'all are talking about we need to hear it.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: We need to have space to understand it.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: So that was that was really important for us to hear from the practitioners with no, no, no hidden agenda there.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: No like sales pitch to sell them after it's just good quality data.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that strikes me about what you guys are saying is like you're literally giving nonprofit practitioners a voice in their own care, in their own career, in their own health.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: And you know, we we sometimes get labeled as toxic optimist, which you know I'm here for and I'm great for it.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: But I think we also have to talk really frankly about this topic, because, as you were building up this retention data, we were collecting mental health data and it was just asking somebody how does this feel?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: How are you valued, how are you compensated, how, how is your body and your mind feeling?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: How does that affect your ability not only to show up for your job but, to your point, michelle, show up in life, talk to us about what you're studying and tell us what you found, and I want the good, the bad and the ugly hit us.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: Okay, everyone get your big coffee cup.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Come to chair, sit up right.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: We put this questionnaire out.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: We used an anonymizing tool to put it out.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: We wanted to be clean.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: You all helped get the word out.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: We work directly with nonprofit organizations and their people.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: A couple other weeks you know what I speak with that the organization I work with every text, and we have a great data scientist who, like kind of guided me on, like that.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: You know, if you get a sample of 30 or more, you're doing good, like to be statistically significant, and we got hundreds.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: We got hundreds of responses.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: And what's if you flip to the end, as Michelle and I were talking through these with you know recruiters, non profiteers, hiring managers and stuff.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: I think like the headline was the results being disappointing but not surprising.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: So we had a bunch of questions.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: We said you know what corner of the sector you coming from.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Is it healthcare, education, arts and culture, etc.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: Etc.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: How many years experience do you have?
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: You know zero to five or you 30 plus.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: We asked are you looking for currently or will you be looking for a new job in the next year?
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: And then what are the reasons why we give a great list and then had another category in there.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: Same thing for people who are not looking.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Are you happy?
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: Are you not looking for a job?
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: What are the reasons why?
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: What was also, I feel, important to us is, you know, we often talk about nonprofit stuff with nonprofit people and we, you know, not that whole run it like a business thing, but like we really don't.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: There's a big gap between us and like that other world.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: We are the third, especially in the US, we are the third largest employment sector, but we don't often quite act like it.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: So we looked a little bit about like how things compare to like all businesses.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: You know they're the Bureau Labor Statistics and we did a lot of research out there on all industry averages.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: So they they find BLS that something like 65% of people and all industry average are looking for new work, and that's actively and actively, however you want to find it.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: So we looked at this survey that nonprofit HR did a couple years ago for COVID.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: That found 45% of their respondents were looking for new work and 23% of those people were looking for work outside the nonprofit sector.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: So, like almost a quarter of the 45%, we're like I'll just go make coffee In our head.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: We said the numbers either going to be way better or way worse and anecdotally we think we know.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: So we asked these questions and a staggering three quarters of people came back is that the right?
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Three fourths of people came back 74%, 75% just shy of that, but it's.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: We round up said that they are currently looking for considering a new job or will over the next year.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: That's compared to that 65% all industry average.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: So we're, in the social sector, 10 percentage points behind inequality perspective, where all businesses are.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: What was deeply more interesting for us, I think, is when we looked at those people who were looking for a new job, two thirds of them said they were either not looking to stay in the nonprofit sector or they were unsure, and the unsure number was the great big, angry middle thing like only 34% said yeah, sure, we're sticking in the nonprofit sector.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: So when you think of that three quarters of people who are looking or actively will be looking this year and then the number of them who actually want to stay in the nonprofit sector there's a couple things in these survey findings that I want bosses and consultants and hiring managers to really listen to.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: But if you think, one of the things we say in the survey is imagine you've got 16 people, one-sixth at your mid to small-sized nonprofit.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: Make the assumption that 12 of them are going to be gone in a year and that you have created such an environment that a third of those people no longer want to work, or two-thirds of those people no longer want to work in the nonprofit sector.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: So if very few other things are heard in the annals of this survey, take a moment.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: If you're an organization that doesn't have a function for talent, people, culture, whatever that thing that often gets delegated to the CEO's, ea, who is also the office manager and also the HR manager, think about that.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: The top-line reasons that the people were looking shared with us is and I'll get into the percentages too the big top one, which I don't again disappointed, but not surprising.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: They have too much work and not enough support to get that work done.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: There's a lot that we can talk about, about how to redistribute resources to make that possible.
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: Right after that, they didn't feel like there were a lot of clear, obvious growth opportunities and in this sector we often I always point to Kim Scott, who talks about and we did one of Kim Scott's books that we are for good Radical candor.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: it was awesome.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I highly recommend it.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: She's amazing, just probably names.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Michelle and I will drop on this podcast and everyone should listen to it.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: But we often think of growth that people can't see.
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: But in the associate to manager, to director, to vice president, we think in that upward trajectory.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: But what about the prospect researcher or the program manager who just really kick butt at that and want to do that for the entirety of their career?
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: We don't know what to do with those people, because they're really good at it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: We could send them to a conference, but we're not making it clear for them how they can grow.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: And so that was reason number two why people are looking for new work.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: And third, no surprise that they have inadequate benefits and compensation.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: Not the easiest thing in the world to do, but again, less bagels.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: Redirect some of that money to sellers, harkening to Michelle's vision to include the people who are not looking.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: Big, big, big surprise for me personally, but not really, and we've spoken with some organizational behaviors about this.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: 82% of people said if they're happy where they're working, it's because they have flexibility with remote, hybrid things like childcare access, like the companies that forever charged you to pay your car park at the office where you work.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: Maybe there are things you can offer that are not very expensive up front, but oh my gosh, so 82% of people.
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: That was a big, shiny reason.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: So if you're a boss and you're dragging everyone back to the office, really they are.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: Also think about the people that you're going to be creating that black hole of anger with, and you have a reason that they need to be there.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: Second on that list they wanted supportive leadership and management.
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: Again, you've heard Michelle and I talk about those two different things managers and leaders but that 64% of people said if they're happy where they are that's like almost two thirds of people because they have supportive boss and supportive leadership.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: Then, third on the list, that they have adequate compensation benefits, and that's really catching up.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: I think that people are finally realizing oh, we can't, this really is an $86,000 a year job.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: We've been paying $54,000 forever, and that person they're going to go have coffee.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: So that was a lot and there's more, but I do want to pause and just see what y'all think.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I mean I feel like you're just trying to rile us up Like the fire in my belly hearing these stats.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: First, thank you guys for pouring into this.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you, if you're listening.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: You poured into this survey like it wouldn't be power without candor and like people pouring into this.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: So huge gratitude there.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: But which I really struggle with.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Like you know, we're all Seth Godin fans here.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I know Michelle and I have, like you know, rift about this, but he dropped this book Song of Significance that I think came at a perfect time that it's like we have a superpower in theory to me in the nonprofit space.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: So it bothers me so much to be like we're this beacon of significance, of a place to work that you can find value in and this is what comes out of it.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: We should be beating that just based on what's possible, you know, and the vision we can pull people into and the uplift that it can provide people's lives.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And it is so sad that you know scarcity or whatever the blocks are, or tradition or expectations are literally holding us back and it's driving talent away from solving the world's greatest problems.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Like I'm just so riled, you know, and he did that 10,000 person survey and kind of backed it up with people.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: That's what they're looking for.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: So, okay, get in there.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: B, you got to respond to.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was such a beautiful way to frame it.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like one.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, I'm just real sad.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I'm just real sad about it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: And even when you were saying that, people were saying, oh, I may be underpaid or I may not be paid well enough.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I just think that is so subjective.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I just think that when we're looking at the trends of what's happening in business, what's happening with Gen Z and millennials, they're just not going to come.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: They're just flat out not going to come to this sector One if they're not going to be compensated well for it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And I think the compensation piece is a huge piece.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Capacity building starts with giving your people actual money and compensation benefits and seeing them as human beings.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: But you know, I do think that this doesn't have to be our story, and that's where I'm sitting at is.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: We are such heartwired people.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: We are here for the change, for what we can affect, and it's going to take a huge movement of people, all who are in lockstep and saying the same thing, saying we're not going to do this anymore.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And we're going to have to wake people up Because I am very fearful of what can happen if we don't.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: And, let's be honest, there are incredible nonprofits out there who are doing amazing work with their employees.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: They are paying them well, they're giving them incredible mental health benefits, but we have to address the fact that this is just not our culture and we've got to do a hard about face to change the tide and honestly I think it's going to change the tide on everything.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: If we can actually pay our people, give them leverage, give them joy of coming to work, support psychological safety, I think everything changes when that happens.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: Becky, I'm going to jump in there real quick because you said something I've been wanting to mention.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: We have to see that this right now is not our culture, and I bring us back to the beginning of the pandemic, to where we literally changed the way we washed our hands, the way we went outside in a matter of three weeks.
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: So I really like remembering that, because when we have collective attention placed on something, the amount of change we can enact is radical.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: So I really love that reminder that if we all just focus on this problem and go to a direction, that we're all rolling in the same direction, I think we can do so much more than we even think.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: And, john, you mentioned Seth Godin's book.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: I love that book, so so much.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: So if you have not read the song of Seth Godin's, please pick it up and read it.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: But this kind of moves us into the answers or the solution making to the survey, so I can hop in there because you can actually TV up.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Please do, let's go for it so beautifully.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: So for me, in my mind, there's two levels of answers.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: There's one level to where, like these are things organizations should do tomorrow, and that's at the nonprofit level.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: So I'll start there.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: These are like the easiest ones, I think, to really digest.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Two things come to mind.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: One we have to really think about sustainable growth for our organizations, because a lot of the stressors that people are feeling when we back them out and reverse, like why is this stress placed on this person at this time, it all does back out to what we're considering, you know, scale and growth, which is tied to our concept of success.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: So I want us to really interrogate for each nonprofit, like what does success look for you?
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: What does it mean for you?
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Like, how do you gauge that?
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: And I think in this race to scale, we're losing so much of the things are meaningful to us, you know, including protecting our humans, right, like we're losing that, and so that's like.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: One thing is think about sustainable growth.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: What does that mean for you and your organization?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: What a success mean for you?
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: And you know that's not an easy answer, but it is something you can like tactically do.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Another tactical thing you can do is really acknowledge your need for organizational slack.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I don't care what nonprofit you are like, you need organizational slack.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: And organizational slack is just admitting that you can't Kind of go all out a hundred percent with all of your resources.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe you can only schedule 80% of your resources and leave 20% for like things that pop up, so you can't really like push things to the max with the resources you have.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: You have to have some slack built in Intentionally because things happen right Like that's just life.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: You know, things come up last minute and so if people are already maxed out in terms of the amount of work they have on their plate, they have no room for extra stuff, which I think so many of us are feeling right now.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: So just build in organizational slack, like as part of your strategy, and those are two very easy things, even though they are big things.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I think the second level of answer is more like on a sector level, and so I think the questions to move us forward are less about Deciding what to do and more about deciding who we want to be.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: These are like deeper as extensional questions which I find really exciting To move into, and healthy and healthy and healthy and I've been thinking about this.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: There's a systems guvru at MIT.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: His names Otto Sharmer, sch, a, are in ER.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: We can link him in the show notes, but he's just like a fantastic systems thinker and he talks about how we have this need to upgrade our operating system.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: And I love this example because it's so much like we could all.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: We all know operating systems from our cell phones, right like as you have to update your system, it's annoying like things get reset.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: But if you think about why do you upgrade your operating systems?
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: You upgrade your operating systems because if you don't like, you have enhanced security risk, like developers you know Regularly find and fix security holes, like protect against viruses.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: You have new features that roll out.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: So if your operating system isn't upgraded like, you won't get those.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: And you also have compatibility issues, right.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: So you can't put like car parts for a 1960s car on a 2000s model like it.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Just it's not compatible, right.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: And so I think that this is such a great way to kind of wrap your mind around this nonprofit system of like we need to upgrade the whole operating system to where you know it's more updated, like things can be applied.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: We can think more about taking care of people, but ultimately, I Think it'll be a more regenerative space for staff.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: And that's the question like I really want to move us into is, like on this podcast, but also, just you know, this year right, like, how do we upgrade our whole operating system in the sector because we're past due?
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: You know things aren't working and if you don't think about it at that systems level, then you're just talking about singular issues like retention, donor, you know donor attrition, like and it's more than that you have to look at the whole Connected piece of it, because if you don't look at that, then you're just, you know, updating an app here or there and Eventually, just like the whole, the whole thing isn't gonna work right.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: So that's where my mind is going in terms of solutions.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Evan, when you look at this research, what surprised you, like?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: What are some of the things that Bubbled up to the top in terms of discoveries?
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: What didn't surprise you?
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: What?
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: What are those opportunities?
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: What?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: What's something that that you can give kind of a 10,000 foot lens on what people are saying and thinking?
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: Well, let's go a hundred feet in the air.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: We always talk about like airplanes, like that's, that's so, so, so high.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: The thing that was surprising for me it's because when we looked at link at LinkedIn and we listen to things and we read, I think a lot of us who are Non-profit people, non-profit ears in the sector, we kind of think like it's toxic and terrible everywhere because that's the the volume of the voice.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: But in the research in this report people came back and it was 48% of people said that they're looking for new opportunities Because they're in poor, toxic environments.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: That's still half y'all and that ain't great.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: A lot of toxic yeah but on the list of things that were driving people to look for or consider new jobs in the short term, it wasn't as high as I thought, like if her effort you know we can work on that.
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: To Michelle's points, like all the time we can work on that.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: But Similarly, like when we look real we bring down to like one foot on the ground.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of talk everywhere AFP, you know, case and these other organizations about fundraiser turnover and so I kind of thought, like when you broke the data down and you looked at the fundraisers who were looking for new work, I thought that would be quite high in reality.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: In this survey response we found that marketing at 81% and public programs people at 94% were the two Most in danger of looking or immediately looking for new work and the industries they worked in were advocacy, public policy and arts and culture organizations.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: So I think if I were to be cheeky, if you are a manager or CEO or something of an advocacy or an arts culture organization, drop everything and go run down the hall and check in on your marketing, comms and Public programs.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: People buy them one of those six dollar bagels.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: Just go do that.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Michelle, do you want to say anything that surprised you about the research?
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: There is one thing that we touched on, but I will Underscore it again as I think there reason that people are leaving because of lack of hybrid work.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: It's something that feels like we can really own, that we can do like more flexibility into these roles, and it's just I think we know it's really important to people.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: So why not like just give it a little more thought on how you can build in more flexibility?
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: So that's something very Real that you can like chew on, you know, look at, and that we know that means a lot to people.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: So make sure that you're giving that option, that you're not profit and you know nonprofits.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: We never can not never, but oftentimes we can't compete with competitive salaries and for profits.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: But we can give more flexibility, so we should definitely do that.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: But we should be competing on Paychecks.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I like just want to start changing that narrative.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: We I think we should be the most highly paid people, we are serving the biggest problems in the world, and y'all can just pat my head and say like, oh, becky, you're so sweet that you have that dream, but I really do believe that we need to move that way as a society.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: So you know, we're we're gonna wind up this conversation and I really want to wind it up with hope and with activation.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And so I'm gonna just give a little twist to our one good thing and I want to ask you both what would be your one good thing you could leave with the community for somebody who could get activated in this cause right now, whether they're a leader, whether they're a brand new professional, whether they're exhausted and burnout been in the sector for 30 years.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: What is one good thing that somebody could do today?
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: And, evan, I'll start with you.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: There's an, I don't know when it's gonna come out, where it's gonna come out.
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: There's an editorial piece that I'm working on where I Wanted to talk with people either people in culture, ceos, etc, etc.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: Looking around the social sector, at nonprofits particular, who are doing things right.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: They're attracting great talent, they're keeping great talent if people leave, they're offboarding them in a human way.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: Erica Kesswin, who's a great organization, has wrote this book rituals roadmap and the new one, retention revolution, talks a lot about the boomerang employee people that come back and one of the things that I found in speaking with the organizations who I find are doing it right and this is very practical, very tactical.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: They're doing what I call listening and listening again and like the tag that I have to that is pentament of listening.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: If you think in like painters, painters do this thing called pentamento, where it's like they paint and then they paint over it and like over time, the top layer kind of fades away and you can kind of see underneath it and so look at the.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: So listening and listening again is this thing like let's talk with our people is one great organization here in Houston that I spoke with who did this thing.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: I think they call it like connection cash because during the pandemic, they said, like, are you feeling close to your coworkers and if not, what can we do about it?
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: And people said, like we can make $20, a quarter available, so we can get back to.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: You spoke with who did this thing.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: I think they call it like connection cash Because during the pandemic they said, like, are you feeling close to your co-workers and if not, what can we do about it?
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: And people said, like, can you make 20 bucks?
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: You know a quarter available so we can go get coffee?
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: And they said, boo, we'll do it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: They listened and then they listened again Six months later, whatever the time period was.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: People were like we're a small staff, we've all connected, so like connection cash is no longer valuable for us.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: We appreciate that you keep making it available, but listen to us again.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about the next thing we want to do and that thing.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: It's sort of like well, in 99, we did a staff poll survey with Gallup and people said they wanted sorry, I'm being silly, but like you know, people said they wanted bagels, and so for 28 years we've done bagels and it's like you know, everyone on the staff is gluten intolerant.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And, but no one's told you so that's what.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: If you are in a position of authority and that's like if you've got colleagues in your orbit who listen to you, if you are blessed enough to be a manager, I think it's one of the best jobs in the world Listening to your people and listen again, make that an active part.
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: If you've got standing weekly meetings, management team meetings that occur with any cadence, don't just do checklist check-ins, do stuff that's around the people and listen and keep listening, asking those open-ended questions.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: You too, john and Becky, you're so flipping fantastic about this.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: That is something I think people can really lean into.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: Tomorrow, you having a check-in with one of your teammates how are you doing?
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: Great, I was working on this.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: No, no, how are you doing?
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: It's Friday.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: What are your plans for the weekend?
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Oh, great.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Do you have a dog?
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about that.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: Write that down, listen and listen again.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: You have a gluten intolerance.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: We could get different bagels.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: It's magic the things that happen.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Michelle, what about you?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: What's your?
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: one good thing my one good thing is based on the theme, I feel like, of this conversation, which we're really talking about moving the sector from survival to abundance.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: One quote I've been leading on heavily in this realm of thinking is by Grace Lee Boggs.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: She says movements are born of critical connection, not critical mass.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: I just love that reminder because I feel like we forget that, and even I was doing some research on the Renaissance.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: It says that fewer than 200 core people what really brought the Renaissance on?
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: I think that we're really trying to think about people at the top leading in this change, but it really hits all of us.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: What you do need to find, I think, it's a community of people that are interested in what you're interested in, because you need that critical connection.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Community-centric fundraising is one that we are for.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Good community is a second.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Those are two things.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Go look at it.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: We just need that critical connection, not necessarily critical mass, but we have that connection piece and even just the people you've interviewed on this podcast, all of these people I think we already have.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: We have the ideas, we have the vision, we have the ambition.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: We just need the infrastructures, the enabling infrastructures, to make it happen.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: This is Evan again.
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: It's almost like if you do this right, there could be some uprising of impact.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: I just came up with that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: I feel like we page all to say that.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I know I'm like remember when Michelle comes in and drops her one good thing of like come to the we Are For Good community Seriously.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: But, PS, totally come, because we will love on you and we do want to invite a bigger conversation.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: And, John, you know I have been on this soap box for the last year that I just believe the reason we are here on this earth is to evolve, to learn, to grow, to get better to, and this is a huge part of it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: This is such a moment.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: I would love to be at the forefront of changing the nonprofit sector for good, of valuing human beings.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: I am here for this revolution and the renaissance.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Michelle.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I know my art history minor in college is just so thrilled with all this art references in this and y'all I mean Michelle Evan, thank you, I mean y'all are literally lights Good time, thank you.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Bomb to this sector.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I just really am so grateful for you and y'all.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: We can do this.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like I want to be put on my like Ted Lasso Coach Hat, like we can do this.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: It's going to take each of us influencing, talking, sharing these conversations, starting the conversations with wherever and whoever you have influence with, and so y'all.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: How can people connect with y'all?
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Let's link this up.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: How can we get this beautiful research that y'all did?
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I want to give y'all the floor because I've already told you to follow these two.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: If you're not, like, where else do y'all hang out online?
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: I would say my number one place is on LinkedIn.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: You can also check out my website, michelleffriendcom, but I'm on LinkedIn often, so if you want to chat more about this, just drop me a message.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And we will link all that up.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: And, evan, what about you?
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: LinkedIn is great.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: The joke I think I made last time on the show is I'm the Evan Wildstein with a beard.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: There are a couple of us.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Okay, great, there's another one and we'll have sort of an infographic not fully substantial but a couple of page report on these findings, and y'all will have that all in these notes for people to just share and print it out, sort of like gently leave it on your boss's desk, like don't let him know where it came from, that kind of thing.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Socialize it with your board Like I'm going to drop this link for everybody.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: It's the nonprofiteerscom backslash S-I-S-R.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: That is your scissor.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: It stands for social impact, staff retention and it's a wealth of information.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this is only the beginning of this conversation that we're having in this community.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: It is going to be ongoing, it's going to be growing as the movement continues to grow.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you both for your hearts in this.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: You're literally started with the one and it is going to ripple.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I believe in it and I believe everybody is worthy of it.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Love you both.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Friends, and you probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: We'd love for you to come join our good community.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's free.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: You can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode.
• 45:03
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• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Backslash hello.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: And one more thing if you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating interview?
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: It means the world to us and your support helps more people find this community.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much, friends.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Can't wait to our next conversation.