Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / 11 | Living with the Weight we Never Put Down: Finding the Light with Author Joel Asencio, LMHC
Transcript
- Cassandra: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: And I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet complex griefs that don't always come with a funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Cassandra: We talk about quiet losses on this show and today we're looking at disenfranchised grief ⁓ and ambiguous loss. Daiana, LMHC: Today we're talking about a side of loss that usually gets whispered about, the complicated feelings, possibly anger, ⁓ ⁓ our losses, whether it's a one or parts of ourselves. we are going to be joined by Joel Asensio. He is the author of How Could a Clementine Way? And is this character named Nathaniel. He's the main and he is incredibly raw about the suffering that can be when you're trying to process feelings that seem unsurmountable, Cassandra: Now the reason why this falls under disenfranchised grief is because this is the pain that you feel when your loss isn't fully validated by the world around you. Because a relationship was messy, or it was a negative situation, or even if you're struggling with something inside of you, ⁓ doesn't get validated by those that know you, or those that know of the situation, or people just passing by. When conflicted with someone, or even within yourself, ⁓ There's nobody there to defend themselves and we tend to shut ourselves down. ⁓ this experience can ⁓ our ability to actually process the fact of the physical loss. So in this situation there was a loss of a parent but there's also a loss of identity. ⁓ so that's what makes us so disenfranchised. Daiana, LMHC: And there's also that layer of ambiguous loss. Even if the relationship was strained, losing a parent or a loved one often means the losing of a child version of ourselves or any version of ourselves. You're navigating the death of a person or a version, but also the death of hope that things could be as we wanted them to be. Cassandra: And then there's the ripple effect. While we're processing our experiences and we're also navigating a complicated relationship with those who are living. Sometimes it's like the grief is a mirror reflecting every other fractured piece of the family. Daiana, LMHC: we are very excited to introduce Joel Asensio. He is a husband, a father, a licensed clinical mental health counselor, and as of March 25th, a self-published author. Welcome, Joel. Joel. ⁓ Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Joel Asencio: Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This is awesome. was really good. That was great guys. ⁓ Cassandra: Congratulations, this is a big deal. Daiana, LMHC: It's a huge deal. Thank you. Cassandra: You know, it's a little thing we threw together today. Whatever. Joel Asencio: Yeah, loved it. Cassandra: So I'm a little bit curious ⁓ when it comes to writing a book, I've never written a book. have you ever written a book? No. So ⁓ I'm curious not only about like as a character and how all of this went about, but also ⁓ where it all begin? Joel Asencio: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, writing a book is tricky. ⁓ It takes, it can be a little overwhelming at times. The initial thought for How Much Could Clementine Weigh? was birth through the loss of my mother when my mom passed away about nearly six years ago to this date. My wife was also pregnant with my daughter at the time. And I remember thinking, my daughter is going to be born and eventually she's going to die. And ⁓ how I reconcile with feeling like this is a good thing, knowing that she may experience suffering and may eventually pass away. And that a significant trajectory. It kind of pushed me into a depressive state, depressive season as I wrestled with the reality of losing my mother and then also the joy of having a child ⁓ and the of losing them. And yeah, that's what birthed the book. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, what you're speaking about there is that anticipatory grief. And that is an experience that we often don't talk about because we don't know what's happening. When we lose a parent, when we lose a grandparent, triggers that you're going to lose, let's say for me recently, that happened to me where I lost my grandmother and Joel Asencio: Yeah. you Daiana, LMHC: I couldn't be there physically when my grandmother was in the hospital. And that part of me couldn't because of that anticipatory grief was so heavy that I'm going to have to experience that with my mom. And I'm going to have to support my kids through that. So because of other reasons, I couldn't be there. But it left some space for me to, for that anticipatory grief to grow. Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: But when you're experiencing it in real time and to have a daughter as well. Joel Asencio: Yeah. Cassandra: It's interesting because I'd forgotten that I had a similar experience ⁓ with my pregnancies. Just, ⁓ I didn't lose anyone the time, but I have this experience of what right do I have to bring someone into this world when I know that eventually they're gonna have to leave it. And there's a lot of grief wrapped up in that. Joel Asencio: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's so much. And, you know, I we're going to go into spoilers, right? So ⁓ I can say ⁓ a bit about the little bit about the book. ⁓ It's alert. ⁓ But, yeah, so so when I started writing it initially, it coming from the of parents, right? Like, how can I justify giving birth to a child that I know will eventually suffer and pass away as well? Daiana, LMHC: Hahaha! Mm-hmm. Joel Asencio: And then it started to shift for me because although I'm a counselor, right, I'm also human and have my own battles with, you know, major depressive disorder, ADHD ⁓ and PTSD. And so those things influence a lot of my experience in the world and the way that I about life. And so I began to think, what if this child I knew would suffer for sure? And so those things influence a lot of my experience in the world and the way that I about life. And so I began to think, what if this child I knew would suffer for sure? Like what if I knew my child is going to suffer, there's no doubt about it. They're going to wrestle with wanting to be alive, with seeing themselves as worthy of being alive or that life is worth living. Is it still okay for me to give birth to that child? And if so, how would I respond to that child when they question me about it? And that's how I started to build Nate's story. Like what if I knew my child is going to suffer, there's no doubt about it. They're going to wrestle with wanting to be alive, with seeing themselves as worthy of being alive or that life is worth living. Is it still okay for me to give birth to that child? And if so, how would I respond to that child when they question me about it? And that's how I started to build Nate's story. Yeah, that's how that started. Daiana, LMHC: Well, we were very lucky to get the book before it comes out on the 25th. something that really stood out to me was the reality of what that experience looks like. Joel Asencio: Hmm. Daiana, LMHC: from death, especially a parent, to experience that depressive episode or just living major depression. Joel Asencio: appreciate that. It is. Daiana, LMHC: It's a journey. Joel Asencio: my goal ultimately was to not glamorize the idea of depression, the of suffering, but paint it realistically as someone who has lived experience and know what it's like to kind of navigate through those I wanted Nate to feel very real. And so people read it, who may have experienced it or maybe not experienced it or know how to name it ⁓ like, that feels familiar. Daiana, LMHC: being on the other side of things, there's this character, Emily, who was a significant other, right? being the other side someone who's depressed, right? If you ever raised with a parent with depression, I can see how that child is always trying to figure out maybe how to save their parent or if you have a spouse or a partner, anyone in your life that suffers with depression and you feel closed out and you feel like, what can I do to help them? What can I do to save them? And you hitting this wall. ⁓ It wonderful for me to see that tension between the two with Emily Nathaniel and to feel ⁓ her... I don't know, frustration, desperation to let him know how much he is loved. Joel Asencio: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: And as a reader, I'm like, bro, what are you doing? She's amazing. ⁓ She's safe person. Yeah. But that's what it truly looks like when a person in that state. They don't see that. when you are trying to save someone, Joel Asencio: You're dropping the ball. Daiana, LMHC: and Nathaniel's dad as well, trying to save him, that there is this desperation coming from the people that love this person who's struggling. And it's really hard. feels impossible on both ends. Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, Emily's character was interesting. She ⁓ ⁓ first I had the idea of her just being a good friend. And then as I sat with it longer, I was like, feel like there's more connective tissue between them than that. ⁓ And felt like fleshing out that relationship would be helpful in, for people who maybe are with someone who struggles with major depressive disorder or ⁓ with someone who struggles with health in general, it would be good for them to have their own person they can kind of look at and go, ⁓ I ⁓ know what that feels like. Like, feel seen too. And seeing how Emily kind of navigates struggle with Nate, obviously, ⁓ you know, spoiler again, you know, obviously they end up, they end up breaking up and that has an on Nate. But Emily's ability to walk away was significant because it was reflective of her love for him ⁓ and for herself. That you're not at the place actually wrestle with this right now. And so we're take a break. Who knows, maybe come back. I know I had a couple of people wanting them to get back together at the end. Daiana, LMHC: Well. Well, I'm telling you right now, Nate is totally back with Emily and they're having their best life ⁓ my head. Okay? That is exactly where my mind went, especially towards the end of the book. I was like, yeah, they're getting back together. And what you were saying there ⁓ definitely through for me. ⁓ And also, I feel so lucky because I ⁓ read different version of it before Emily became a partner. Joel Asencio: Uh-huh. I love it. Yeah. Cassandra: haha Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ And I can see what that brought to your story. at the end of the book, you talk about the process a little bit in your author's note and ⁓ being able to receive feedback from people in time you're going through this. And like you said, in the author's note, ⁓ there's so many ⁓ edits that you go through. Joel Asencio: Yes. Yes. Daiana, LMHC: you tell us more a little bit about just that process. Joel Asencio: Yeah, so yeah, initially ⁓ there were so many different drafts of this story. ⁓ It had a title, which I'll tell you about. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ yeah, there again, when create something, I think we talked about this before, like when you create something and you kind of give to the world, there's a feeling, there's a fear, There is anticipation. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ I want to know about that. Joel Asencio: of rejected, right? Like there's a fear there. for me, ⁓ what important was that the book conveyed what I was aiming for ⁓ more anything else. It's like, I'm trying to really share part of myself. And if people are impacted, Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Joel Asencio: that's right? And so with the edits, some people got advanced copies, original drafts and then other drafts that we were going through. Getting the feedback was sometimes painful, but I saw it as a necessary suffering in the effort of giving Nate the story that he deserves, like really fleshing it out and making sure that people really felt impacted and seen and heard and believed. ⁓ Like your suffering real and it matters. If not to people you, it matters to me. ⁓ And so. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Joel Asencio: That's why it was important. so getting the edits, so I would get feedback. I'd look at the feedback. I'd kind of gather everything together and look and say, okay, is it feedback for taste? Like, is the person just like, I prefer fantasy or romance, you know? And so this is really my cup of tea ⁓ or ⁓ pun intended. Or ⁓ is this feedback like character driven, like character arcs? Like some people were like. Daiana, LMHC: Mmm. Joel Asencio: I want to know more about Nate's mom, right? Like, tell me more about her. I want to know more about her. And I'm like, I would love to, but the story centrally isn't focused on Nate's mom. Like it really is about his relationship with himself internally and the implications of the external on the internal. And so I could go into his mom's childhood and what it was like for her to grow up with this and all of that stuff, but it's not the focus of the story. And so learning what Daiana, LMHC: Mmm. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Joel Asencio: type of edits needed to be made was really, that was a skill that I didn't have. And so I was like kind of leaning on other friends of mine who are writers and other people who are writers to kind of get a better scope perspective on how to edit it. And then going to my copy editor and my developmental editor and all of the different editors that it takes to publish a work and sure that everything came out properly. That was a process. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah, in real time was helping you shape Nathaniel's ⁓ as well. And speaking of Nathaniel and the title of book, how those come about? The names and everything. Joel Asencio: Yeah, yes. Nathaniel, it's funny, originally was thinking about what I wanted to name the main character and I was like, man, like I want it to be subtle. You know, want to, don't want to be on the nose, ⁓ you know, using you know. And ⁓ I found that the Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Joel Asencio: Nathaniel gift God. And I was like, what better ⁓ name for a child who feels like their life isn't worth living. than for their parent who they're upset with for giving birth to them to name them a gift. Like they are considered that gift. And so in the book, there are moments where the dad will refer to Nate as Nathaniel. ⁓ every single time I made sure like Nate caught it, there's moments where you'll see Nate kind of react to it with the intention of maybe somebody will look up his name and be like, why is he reacting this way? You know, and then like, ⁓ that's because he's saying you're my gift from God. My gift from God, you feel this way and I still love you and I want you to know that you're loved and you are a gift. And then for how much could a Clementine weigh how I came up with that. Originally, it was called Clementine Tea which felt way too on the nose. And I I watch a lot of YouTube videos ⁓ from other authors and who people, ⁓ books, ⁓ ⁓ come with ideas, things like that. And there's one in particular, and was talking about how titles of books tend to, you know, if a can provoke question, that's a good title, right? If the title is like, I wonder what that is about. That's a good hook. And so ⁓ I was like, Clementine Tea sounds kind of, lack of better terms, basic. It's just kind of flat. And as I thought about it, I was like, man, wonder how much clementines weigh. And then I was like, how much could a clementine weigh? And I'm like, man, that title kind of matches the theme. It's like clementine itself represents this idea of life, Like this idea of experience of love and joy and those moments that make life worth living. How much weight do those hold in my life, in a life of suffering? Right? And so it's like, how much could a Clementine away? And that's how I kind of came up with the title. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Joel Asencio: But yeah. Cassandra: I love the connectivity of not only the title and the name of the character, but also... bringing everything back to the idea that this is a experience that someone could have or does have or is currently having. how important it is to have those connections to the outside world because when you're wandering through life in this bubble, in this sphere, because that was one of my favorite parts about the book, not to give away too much of it, but like ⁓ confusing the timeline was. ⁓ Like I had no idea what day it was, what time it was, if it was snowing, if it was not I just, it was, it was fascinating. ⁓ And then to have like these glimmers of hope, these glimmers of light, these glimmers of these moments where everything could be better if we just let that light in while we're working to like accept our identity. It's that connectivity. So how much does the Clementine way is a beautiful representation of that. So thank you explaining that. Joel Asencio: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. The intention definitely was to cause disorientation, you know, because for Nate, it is disorienting. He's not sure time. ⁓ He's not day. He just knows that he doesn't want to be there. And so ⁓ that's, you know, a big part of it. In fact, I, ⁓ when I was it, I wanted the scope to be very zoomed in. Think of like characters who are trapped in a house and they can't get out. I think of the movie Clue, right? Like these characters are all there and they can't escape. So we have to deal with what's here. There's no way out. And so ⁓ of isolating the characters, making it so that way the two are stuck together, I think speaks volumes to how Nate is feeling internally. He's feeling trapped, you know, and he's trapped by his grief. He's trapped his depression. He's trapped by his father. And he's trapped by the storm. And so, yeah, that was the goal. So I'm glad he got it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra: And like the steadfastness of the people that love him, like, that just, ⁓ even mother, ⁓ though she there, there was like consistency in her love, there's consistency in his love, there's consistency, and even just ⁓ the ex-girlfriend like, hi, just saying hi, you don't have to respond. ⁓ just how others can in this of turmoil. Joel Asencio: Yes. Hmm. Yeah, love that. to add that, in spite of their consistency, Nate still struggles. Because it's not reflective of capacity. his struggle is not evidence that their love has fallen short that not enough. It's just ⁓ he something else going on that is impacting his ability to receive it. And so. ⁓ That was part of the campaign too, is like I wanted them to be consistent. And one of the things that ⁓ got feedback on and I was like, this is something that I really want to work on, ⁓ not making dad so stoic. Like not making him like just ⁓ a pillar that is unmoved, but more a human who ⁓ feels and who had who had fears. There's a point in the book, spoilers again. Where dad comes to the conclusion of like or where he shares his struggle With Nate and how he doubted his ability to love him. He's like, can I love a child who's suffering? And think that that was ⁓ my insert a little bit like that feeling of like how can I? Love my daughter in the way that she deserves to be loved while also understanding that there will come a time where she suffers and she eventually will pass on like that heart wrenching thing that think parents experience, the fear, know. But his stays, nonetheless. Just like his ⁓ mom, and just like Emily. There's a staying there that each of them exhibit different ways. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, those moments of connection, there are many within the story and that is a theme that was evident to me. I really this book because I love character driven stories. It's not, you know, this action book or anything like that. isn't all this drama. It's just very real. ⁓ Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Hmm Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I wanted it to be very grounded and I love character studies too. Like ⁓ I a lot of people talk about Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame and the difference between the two. People love War because it's just action, action, action, action. Whereas in Endgame, very much a character study. It's like, what do these characters do? Like when you pull apart their basic things, what they become? know, Captain America is a counselor. for veterans, for people who are suffering. It's like, when you pull out all that stuff and we study the characters, who are they? I think Nathaniel, his dad, Emily, his mother, they're real. And influenced by people who I have in my life, people who have influenced me. And so yeah, I appreciate that. Daiana, LMHC: for sure, I could relate experience character in the stage that they were in. Joel Asencio: Hmm. Hmm. That's encouraging. Daiana, LMHC: which was incredible. Yeah, I told Cassandra, I'm like, I don't know how he made me feel these feelings. But I had so many experiences and I was like, what is happening right now? Down to just happened to be drinking orange and cinnamon tea. I'm like, what is happening? is is making me ⁓ yeah. Joel Asencio: Hmm I'm living in your head. Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: That was awesome. And I know, Joel that this book will reach the people that need it most, that will resonate with it. I don't think that any book or any genre is for everyone, but I have so much hope and faith that this book will find those people. And I know there are going to be moments when I just see it in a vision. I don't know if you've ever been to a bookstore. Joel Asencio: Hmm Daiana, LMHC: that you don't intend to buy a book, but it just stands out and you're like, what is this? And you pick it up, it is the book that you need. I know that's gonna happen. I know people are gonna look at that book. The cover is gorgeous. It is beautiful. I just know that it will, that's Joel Asencio: ⁓ thank you. Daiana, LMHC: gonna happen. Joel Asencio: Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, I actually, had somebody design it. So it wasn't AI, but I had someone design it and they, it ⁓ was a work in progress. We did a lot of work on the cover to it feel, you know, not only but also interesting. Yeah, like it captures the book and it's. Yeah, appreciate that. Daiana, LMHC: The essence. It's interesting, is the essence, really does. I truly see that. And as we wrap up today's conversation, we're going to move on to our favorite part of the show. It is the living loss lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about with tangible takeaways you can use right now. Cassandra: So these lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry it. it's a tool to practice and other times it's reflecting on the meaning you've built from a loss you'd never asked for. It's the strength that you've gained, even in the midst of the hard stuff. So Joel what would you highlight is your living loss lesson in all of this? Joel Asencio: I'd say that even in the midst of suffering there are sweet things to be found that tether us. That's what I would say is my living lost lesson. Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: And it's hard to look for, it's hard to find those when you're in it. But I think there's so much hope in you telling us even when you're in it, there is still sweetness. Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Cassandra: Even if it's just those moments of normalcy. Joel Asencio: Exactly, those miniscule... small insignificant clementines. Daiana, LMHC: Yes, we're not going to spoil that part. want the listeners to read. Yeah, yeah, that's for you. And I feel that who reads the book ⁓ going to feel their own impact. That's very personal, I feel, the that everything ties together so beautifully. do you have a Living Loss lesson from Joel? Joel Asencio: Mm-hmm. Keep some things under wraps. Yeah. Cassandra: You Joel Asencio: Mmm. Cassandra: I'm just grateful, honestly, that I was given the experience to experience this. Joel Asencio: Hmm. Cassandra: ⁓ It's not a book I would have picked. It's not something I have grabbed off the shelf and read, ⁓ because ⁓ it's... I'm more of like ⁓ a fiction, like ⁓ a Star kind person. ⁓ So I a lot of parts and a lot of action, this has definitely ⁓ given me an unexpected gift of feeling seen and feeling heard that I expecting. Joel Asencio: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: you Joel Asencio: Hmm. Cassandra: So those moments of sweetness can come from even just unexpected experiences. And for that I'm grateful. So thank you for helping me look for things that I wouldn't normally look for. Joel Asencio: Hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I love that. I love that. book definitely opened up a lot of different parts something that I ⁓ learned it is whether I'm on the side going through emotional that it's okay ⁓ that I have felt those ways, it's okay to we minimize and we think that all these ordinary things don't matter and it's okay to feel that way. And then to be on the other side, to love someone going through this, that you're not loving them wrong, you're not loving them, you know, the love is enough and it's not you. But what I saw with people in Nathaniel's life is that they stood by. Joel Asencio: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: And even with Emily, really happy for her. The way you wrote it, it left me happy for her that she knew that ⁓ possibly knew something that she had to do. ⁓ So I just saw in this story depicted in so many different ways. ⁓ Joel Asencio: Mmm. Hmm. Hmm. Cassandra: Thank you. Joel Asencio: Thank you. Thank you guys. Cassandra: I am personally interested in knowing how ⁓ we get hold of you. Like how do we find this book? Like what's going on? What's going on surrounding the release? ⁓ Tell us. Do it ⁓ Joel Asencio: Yeah. Okay. ⁓ I'm on Instagram. Yeah. Now, on under author Joel Asensio. You can find on Instagram. posting videos and content talking about the book and also ⁓ things that are up. April 25th, be at the Tarpen Springs ⁓ Festival and signing books. I also am going be doing a pre-order special edition. ⁓ for the people who pre-order the book, they'll get a journal of questions that they can go through as they read through the book ⁓ help them not only connect more with Nate, but also ask themselves the same kind of questions that Nate would likely be wrestling with. And then you get entered into a raffle as well to get a bespoke version of the book. ⁓ So a made, custom designed, one of a kind version of the book. you get entered into the raffle for pre-ordering it. Yeah, so we have all that going on and I'm very excited about it. Daiana, LMHC: I'm definitely entering that raffle and if I win, it wasn't rigged guys. Cause I'm, I'm crossing all my fingers. Joel Asencio: Yeah Cassandra: 100 % rigged. Joel Asencio: Yeah. love it. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: That's amazing. That is great. I'm really excited for all of this and congratulations, huge congratulations to you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Joel. Thank you so much for sharing this story and for being with us here today. And you to our listeners for being a part of our circle. Remember that sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who's carrying their loss in silence. Joel Asencio: Thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you guys. Daiana, LMHC: Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, follow, share, and know that your story matters. Cassandra: And just as a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists, and this does not replace professional or mental health care. you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to someone, a professional preferably, near you. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra: Thank you again so much Joel. Joel Asencio: Thank you guys. Daiana, LMHC: Thank you and I'll see you guys next week.