Latest / The You Project / #2228 Achievement vs Meaning - Dr. Olivia Ong

Transcript

#2228 Achievement vs Meaning - Dr. Olivia Ong · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, g'day team. It's a new project. It's Harps and
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: it's Dr. Olivia coming at you. So I'm looking forward
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: to this conversation. I had a bit of a read
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: and a bit of an exploring of the doc's background
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and her journey and definitely a lot of insights for
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: us today, I think. So hi, Dr. Olivia. Do I
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: call you Dr. Olivia, Olivia, Dr. Ong? What do you want?
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: What's the most comfy?
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Olivia will be fine, Craig.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. How are you?
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: I'm well, thank you. I'm... I'm feeling quite energetic today,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: which is quite rare sometimes. Being a mom of two
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: young kids, it's a bit rare.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: You and I gleaned before we pressed the record button
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: that we're both morning people, which is good for us
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: because this is 7.30 a.m. Do you think that's... Do
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: you think that's a real thing? Is it somebody, some
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: people like cognitively and psychologically and emotionally are better at
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: different times of the day? It's like some people, it's
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: like between midday and five, I'm amazing. Before 10, don't
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: talk to me. Is that a real thing or is
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: that just a personal perception?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I think it's a, you know, it's a personality thing
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: and also how the human biology wires. But, you know,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: like for me, ever since I was a kid, I've
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: always been I guess a morning person, I'll wake up
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: really early to study for my exams. And yes, I mean,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: my whole life's about exams, you know, as a medical person. Yes.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Exams from day one all the way until even when
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: you're older. But never mind.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So it's really up to the human, like the personality,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: also the biology of that person. You know, my husband's
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: the opposite. He's a night person. Right. Like, which works
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: out well, you know, when we look after kids. I'm
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: a morning person, he's a night person.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: You don't have to spend too much. You don't have
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: to see each other too much.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, in a way, yeah.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Did you tell us about where you grew up?
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And I was listening and the environment. I felt like
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: you came from or come from a family that's like
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: achievement is success. the minimum requirement, like to be a
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: high performer, like that's the minimum requirement academically and probably professionally.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Tell me a bit about coming from that.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was born in Singapore, but I grew up
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: between Jakarta and Singapore. My parents set up a skincare
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: business in Jakarta. So I had during school holidays, I'll
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: travel back to Jakarta for holiday. And then I subsequently
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: went to Melbourne for medical school. But growing up in Singapore,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Singapore is a nation of is a very organized country
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: and very highly focused on academia or academic studies. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: we would drill in, the teachers drilled that into us
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: from very early age. And I grew up with, you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: with feeling competitive with my peers because we were primed
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: that way perhaps. And if we don't, let's say we
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: don't do very well in our studies, we will be
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: shamed in front of of our peers. So I think
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: it's a very unhealthy culture when I look back. Very
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: different from Australia, because my kids are now obviously going
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: to schools in Australia, in Melbourne. Very, very different system.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: It's a bit more relaxed, allows creativity, but we don't
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: kind of have that in Singapore. They don't really encourage
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: our creativity. Instead, they just want us to get good marks.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: So I grew up like that. And medical school was
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: exactly the same, even though it's in Melbourne. it's, you know,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: people are relaxed, but they are also very competitive and studious.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So I guess from a very young age, medicine became
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: a huge part of how I saw myself. I love
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: the idea of helping people, but I also am very
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: achievement-oriented myself. I have to say my parents didn't push
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: me to be a doctor. In fact, they weren't too encouraging.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: They were afraid that I wouldn't get married and have
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: children and I'll be married to my career. I think
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that was their greatest fear was like, well, what if
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: she like ends up marrying her career, not actually getting
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: married at all and having children. I think that was
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: their greatest fear. But that's okay. My parents are, you know,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: they don't push me too hard. It's more, I push
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: myself because I'll surrounded by people like myself. Well, you know,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I had a picture of what a successful doctor looks
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: would be like, you know, like become one, specialize, work hard,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: build a career, get married, have children, eventually, hopefully, and
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: moving forward. Then, as you probably read, I had a
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: spinal cord injury when I was at the prime of
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: my career. And I think what kind of shaped me
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: the most was the tension between those versions of myself.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I dealt with that tension for a long time.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: In fact, as high performers, we all deal with tensions
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: from both sides. So for myself, the Olivia that believes
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: that if I work hard, I'm going to control the outcome.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And then there's that Olivia who had to learn that
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I can do everything right. In fact, I'm the least
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: risk person. taking person in this in this world i
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: think i will i will never ever go skydiving and
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: no i will never ever go skydiving i will not
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: swim with sharks i know i have friends who have
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: done that i'm like no that's not what i want
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: to do i'm scared but um even if i've done
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: everything right and you know life can still happen in
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: an instant you know it changes in an instance so
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: i think My spinal cord injury taught me that, and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll be talking about that in this conversation.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: But I realized that after having been through such a
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: traumatic life experience, I realized that achievement is not it,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: you know, it's isn't the same thing as meaning. And
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: these days I'm less interested to ask, what am I
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: going to accomplish? I'll be like more interested to ask,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: you know, what is the life I want to live
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: and what kind of impact I do want to have.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Not only I want to play hard, I want to Sorry,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: I want to play hard as in work hard and
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: play hard. That's what I meant. I wanted to work
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: hard and play hard. I'm a huge, on a less
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: serious note, I love K-pop. My kids know that. In fact,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: before our conversation today, I had to take down all
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: the merch in my office because it looked like I'm
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a fangirl. But anyway, I'm a long-time BTS ARMY. And
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: my kids, I use their songs as an alarm clock,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: the way my kids.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: To wake them up.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: So they know, they know mom's coming because the music.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious. So I'm interested in, so you, I grew
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: up in, in rural Victoria, right? So I grew up
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: in the country and I was about as academic as
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: a moccasin, right? So not academic at all. Like, you know,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: just stumbled through school. I was interested in, honestly, I
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: was interested in sport and girls and, riding my bikes
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: with my mates and all that stuff. And so I
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: didn't really have a strong sense of identity of who
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: I was or who I was going to become. I
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: wasn't driven or focused like you were. What happens when
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: you have an idea in your head of who you're
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: going to become, you're working towards that, you're in school,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you're studying hard, then you... you get into medicine at Melbourne,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: you do medicine, you get through, you become a doctor.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: And even before your accident, is it good that, that
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: our identity becomes our job is because I feel like
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: sometimes if like who I am is a doctor or
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: who I am as an artist or who I am
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: as a, then what happens when that goes away? If
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: it does, or you can't do that or, I feel
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: it's like this existential crisis is that when people's entire
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: identity and sense of self-worth and value is tied into
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: what they do, then we don't even really know who
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: we are. You know, it's like, well, no, you're not
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: a job, actually. You're really good at your job and
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: you're brilliant and gifted, but you are not a career
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: just like you are are not a bank balance, just
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: like you are not a brand. You are not a book.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: You wrote a book. Well done. I've written a couple
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: of books, but I'm not a book. And I've owned businesses,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: but I'm not a business. And I just finished my PhD,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: but I'm not a PhD. There's all that kind of
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: beyond all the stories about what I'm going to do.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And how do you find who Olivia is in the
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: middle of all of that? Yeah.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: So in my book, I spoke a lot about identity
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: because that was exactly what you were talking about, Craig,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: where I've tied, I guess, from a professional identity perspective,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: it was so much part of my life. I mean,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: I grew up wanting to be a doctor. In fact,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: the only shows I watched was ER. I mean, we
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: had no idea. George Clooney. I mean, George Clooney was
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: a drawcard, of course. But, you know, like ER was
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: my inspirational TV show.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: And things and things like that. And I did a
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: lot of things like volunteer work in nursing homes, homes
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: for the intellectually disabled, you know, just to, you know,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: see what things what it is possibly like as a doctor, perhaps,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: you know, doing helping people. So from a very young age,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: it was very tied in with my my personal and
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: professional identity were very intertwined. But until the accident, I
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: call it the accident, which happened on the 10th of September, 2008,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: where everything kind of the identity piece became really apparent
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: to me, happened then. So I was a young doctor
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: and I was standing at the hospital car park when
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: I was struck by a car traveling at high speed
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: in the hospital car park. You wouldn't imagine that would happen,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: but it does happen in a hospital car park. And
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: I just happened to be standing there at the wrong
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: place and the wrong time. So because of that impact,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I ended up sustaining a very catastrophic spinal cord injury.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: I became paraplegic. The injuries were pretty severe. I mean,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: clinically it sounded awful. I had an L1 burst fracture,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: which meant that my Vertebrae bones were smashed. It's smithereens.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: That's the word, smithereens. And I had an L1, L2 dislocation,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: which meant, think about a Kit Kat. You know how
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: when the ads happen, have a break, have a Kit Kat,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: it breaks into two. I know as morbid as it sounds,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that's what actually happened to my back. And because of that,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: you know, it really injured my spinal cord. But that's
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: clinically what happened, but doesn't capture what happened inside. Because
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: one moment I was Olivia, the doctor, like you said,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: you know, wow, had a career, had plans and had independence,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: clear vision. And then suddenly I was lying in the
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: hospital bed. I was the patient. Couldn't move my legs normally.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Couldn't even do basic things normally. I felt like a
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: baby because people had to bathe me, wash me. They
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: have to move me around, examine me, make decisions about
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: my body. And then the possibility that I might not
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: even walk again. So I think that was like, oh,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: but talk about existential crisis to the max. It was
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: like hit at one go. As a doctor, intellectually, yes,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I knew what a spinal cord injury meant. I'm a
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: rehab doctor, so I knew all that. But I think
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: in some ways, the knowledge of knowing that made it
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: harder because I knew what was the road ahead. But
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I think the greatest loss wasn't just the paralysis. I
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: think it was the identity piece, what we're talking about
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Like, if I can't be that doctor, you know, like
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the ER doctors who are like, you know, running around
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: saving patients. What if I, you know, what if I
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: can't be that ER doctor or that particular high functioning,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: able bodied, running around doing everything doctor? What's going to
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: happen to my career, my independence? My relationships, I was
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: just married to my husband for two years at that time.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: We're still married, by the way. And then motherhood, am
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I going to have kids? How am I going to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: have kids? You know, being paraplegic. The future I had
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: imagined was like, it just became dark. Literally, it's like,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: it sounded like a movie, but it just became dark.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Recovery took a long time and we can definitely talk
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: about it because I had a fun time doing recovery.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I really mean it like fun because I went to America.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I returned to, I eventually did return to rehab medicine.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I resumed my medical training and did the things, did
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the exams again and qualified as a rehab and pain doctor.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: But I didn't return as the same Olivia. because I
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: think the accident divided my life into, you know, before
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: and after. And I really, you know, for a long time,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be the old Olivia, but I realized
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: that's not who I want to be. I want to
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: be the Olivia 2.0 instead. I want to be what
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: she's going to be next. So I think that took
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: a long time to get there. But I got there
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: in the end. So I'm in a happier place right now, interestingly.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: And the before and after, I mean, there's a lot
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: more I want to talk about, but... In terms of
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: your personality or how you express yourself emotionally, socially, even
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the way you see the world and see yourself in
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the world, how did that shift?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Now looking back, I can see that at that time,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: in the early days, I was grieving a And I
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: didn't know what grief and loss was because, you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I'm a medical practitioner and that does not exist in
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: our dictionary. In fact, I don't think we were even
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: taught about all of that stuff, even in medical school.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: But I didn't realize that all those emotions that I felt,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: all of all the feels, as in like, you know, anger, depression, sadness, acceptance, bargaining,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: all that can happen within an hour or two, within
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: a day. I didn't realize that there was grief and loss,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: but I was going through that, of course, because I
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: lost my professional identity overnight. Why wouldn't I be grieving?
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I wish I had acknowledged that and not just.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: I felt victimized, basically. I victimized myself because I didn't know.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: At that time, I didn't have any ability to coach myself. Now,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: I have. But in that time, I was just stuck
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: in a victim mindset. It's easy to be stuck in
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that mindset for a very long time. It felt like
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: a vortex. You kind of go in and you can't
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: seem to find your way out. It was a really very,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: very sad time.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: But I think also... You can't possibly be ready for that, right?
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Everything else, like I can imagine you were, maybe still are,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: but definitely were something of a perfectionist, very organized, very prepared.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: like you've considered every possible outcome, every possible variable, you've
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: mentally navigated that before you even open the door and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: you know how to deal, you know, and then all
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: of a sudden this thing that you have not planned for,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: did not want, did not expect, and you maybe have
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: little or no skills in dealing with that in the moment,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: especially initially because nobody's planning for that and nobody wants that.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And you go from this person who's very much in
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: control and you don't need anyone or anything, like you're
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: in control, you're very independent, and now all of a
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: sudden you're dependent. Now all of a sudden you can't
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: function without all of these other people.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And I had to learn a few things about false
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: hope and, you know, false hope optimism versus actual hope
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: that you can create. So, you know, a part of me,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: maybe in the early days, wanted to be optimistic.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: It was very hard.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Like, everything is going to work out the way I want.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: That's optimism, right? I don't think I had any of that.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: But I had to learn about this work called hope.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Because hope is a very interesting word for me because
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: it's not just an abstract emotion. It's something that I
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: didn't realize it was a journey for me to create
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: for myself. hope will mean like, I just don't know
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: how this is going to turn out, but there's still
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: something I can do next. So I think when, you know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: when I faced with a spinal cord injury, no one
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: could guarantee the outcome. I think I wanted the doctors
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: to just tell me, Olivia, you are going to walk
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: again by X number of months, you know, all these things,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: but At that time, they didn't give me a straight
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: answer that, oh, you're not going to walk again, that
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: kind of direct answer. In fact, they said along the
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: lines of, you're in it for the long haul. As
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: vague as it is, actually, it does mean it is
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: the long haul. It was a very, very long haul.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And when you're facing something like spinal cord injury, no
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: one could guarantee an outcome. I couldn't just simply decide
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: I'm going to walk again and make that happen through
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: positive thinking. So I have a lot of things to
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: say about positive psychology, but let's not go there. You can't,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: you know, positive think your way into walking. You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, biologically,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I just have to let the spinal cord heal the
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: way it is. But I could control the thing. I
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: could control certain things. Like, could I just show up
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: to rehab today, even though my physio is very annoying?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't say that because she might be listening to this.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: But could I turn up to rehabilitation today? Yeah. Could
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I just try one extra repetition? Can I just tolerate
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: being frustrated without giving up? Can I even ask for help? And,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: you know, could I just imagine that my future life
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: would still have meaning despite it's completely different from what
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I had envisioned like before the accident and all of that.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And I think my faith was also very enormously important
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: to me. There were times where I just couldn't see
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: anything ahead or far ahead at all. And faith gave
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: me something larger. than the immediate circumstances I could hold
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: on to. I just remember thinking, you know, be faithful
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: with the small, the big will come. You know, I
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: kept repeating that over and over again. Yeah. And I
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: also learned that hope can be borrowed from other people. Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Because there were days where I just felt hopeless and
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: helpless and all the things. And other people held it
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: for me until I could hold it again. So my husband, John,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: did that for me. My neurophysiotherapist, Gavin, did that for me.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: And later on in America, my trainers did that for
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: me at Project Walk. There were times where I just go, oh, gosh,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: This is really hard.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think I can do it. But they held
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: on to that hope so that I can believe in myself.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: And because I can believe in myself, then I know
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I can do it kind of thing. So there is
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: such a term about this. It's called Per Million Effect,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: where if someone really believes in you very strongly, you
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: can do it. I think teachers and students have that
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: kind of relationship, perhaps coaches and their coachees. or clients
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: have that kind of relationship. And I think human connection
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: is really underestimated in recovery and how they play such
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: an important role in recovery because people talk about stories
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: of resilience as if they were the ones who did
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: everything all. But that wasn't my experience. I had a tribe.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I had a tribe in Australia and America. Not only
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: just doctors, nurses, therapists, trainers, family friends. faith and people
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: who just saw something in me and they believed in me.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: For me, I think hope isn't pretending that everything will
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: be okay because that's false hope, right? Hope is believing
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: that something meaningful remains possible and sometimes it involves taking
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: a step towards it. That's how I see it or
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: that's the journey for me to understand the true meaning
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: of hope. It took me a while, but I got
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: there in the end.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I love it. But also I think I agree with
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: you about positive psychology and I work in that space, right,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: but as well as I have a background in exercise physiology.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: So I kind of get your as much as I
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: can and also I trained a friend who, I still
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: train eight years down the track who was told he
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: would be a quadriplegic.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I started training him in a wheelchair eight years ago
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and now he walks, right? Nice. But the thing is,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: like a lot of the stuff that you need to
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: do to change, to grow, to improve, to gain function,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to recover, it's not fun. It's not quick. It's not painless.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: It's not enjoyable. And you go, okay, I'm in anyway.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Like this whole like knowing what to do is not
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: doing what we know. You know, it's like it's not
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: a bit. Mindset matters. But what matters much more than
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: mindset is what you're actually doing, like the work, the effort,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: the discipline, the consistency, the showing up, showing up, showing up,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: falling down, getting up. You know, it's that it's in
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the middle of that messy, uncomfortable, mostly uncomfortable process where
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you build strength and resilience and understanding. And as all
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that changes, hope kind of can emerge from that as well,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: where you go, actually, I'm making progress. And like, I've
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: been coaching people for decades. I worked in, I set
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: up the first personal training center in Australia a hundred
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: years ago. So I've been coaching people since my early twenties.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And it's amazing how, when someone doesn't have much self-belief,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: but we have a relationship and they trust me and
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I say to them, you know, they think, let's say
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: for example, whatever, but their potential on a certain thing
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: is a four I say, I think your potential, I
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: know your potential is a seven or an eight, but
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: you don't understand your own potential or capacity. And I
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: think there's this self-limiting thinking that is quite often the problem,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: not their actual physiological potential or capacity or healing capacity.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: So when you have a potential to do something, but
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: your story is, I don't, that's very unlikely you're going
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: to you know, fulfill that potential as you could. So
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: it's mindset matters, but also it's like, can I do
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: the thing that I need to do even when I
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: don't want to do it? Exactly.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Exactly. I think you're right, Craig, about it's, it was
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: when I look back in those days or years, rather,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: where I was at Project, well, Carlsbad, where I had
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: to relearn how to walk. It was, I mean, I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: was training, I was pretty fit. I was training like
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: five hours for five days a week.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: It felt like, it was felt like a bootcamp. I
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: was very fit and, um, I was very healthy as well.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I got to travel a fair bit because I was
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in Carlsbad, you know, it's kind of midway between LA
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and San Diego. You can kind of go North. There's
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: universal city and that's Hollywood. And then you go down
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: South and San Diego towards Mexico border. Um, I have
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: to say, I didn't go to Mexico. I was scared.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I was also scared. I didn't want to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: go to Mexico. That's hilarious. I should have gone, but, um,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: in hindsight, but yeah. Um, I think it's a matter
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: of showing up. And I think what really made the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: difference was, as I said, the trainers believed in me.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: There was no such thing as tall poppy syndrome in America.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: There's none of that. So every single win I did,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: no matter how, like it sounded, because I'm a doctor,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: you know, I like big wins clinically. So it would
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: be for me, if let's say I just, like stood
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: for extra minute. My trainers will be celebrating, you know,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: American style. Yeah, you got it girl. And you know,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that kind of. And I felt like, why can't, you know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: they were the ones who actually, helped me as like,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: kind of build this kind of habit of celebrating myself
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: for the little things. And that, that really meant a lot.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I think, um, I didn't get, unfortunately, unfortunately I had
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: to learn that in America, uh, while training, relearning to
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: walk again. But you know, that was, that was very,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: something that I got out of that was their belief
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: in me and also celebrate every single little thing, little one.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It is, um, it's an interesting, um, disparity between
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: not all Australians of course but and all Americans of
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: course but like I do a lot of corporate speaking
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and um you know spoken all around the world um
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: well not all but probably 15 or 20 countries and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: the first time I went to the states I presented
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: at a conference and I remember when I finished, and
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think I did an amazing job. I think
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I did a pretty good job. But they really liked it.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: And everyone clapped, which is weird. People don't clap in
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Australia much.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Not at conferences, right? They all clapped. And I'm like, wow,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: my self-esteem just went through the roof. Thank you. I
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: feel loved. And then... I don't know, there was, I
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: don't know, 500 people or there was hundreds, but I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: had a line of people for about 30 minutes after it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Who just came up to thank me. Like they didn't,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: some of them had a question, but like people were
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: just waiting in line to say, thank you. I really
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: enjoyed that. I'm going to, you know, whatever, I'm going
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: to follow you online or I'm going to get a
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: book or I'm going to get up, whatever it is.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: But it was just, I've never had, well, I have,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: but like having a bunch of people just stand in
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: a queue only to say thank you for the thing
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that I just got paid to do anyway. I'm like, yeah,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: this is such a different energy. And I know that
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: that happens, you know, in Australia as well. It's not
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: like we're a bunch of miserable people. tall, poppy people,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: but it's like it is for me anyway. I'll say that.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: The energy and the love, for want of a better term,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the love in the room, I'm like, wow, this could
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: be quite addictive because my little dopamine was just going
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: off like nuts. I'm like, oh, God, I want to
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: do this again and I want to do it here again. So, yeah,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: that supportive environment and when, yeah, you stand– or you
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: take a step or two extra and the whole room's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: into it. And you go like being in an environment
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: where there's a different energy and there's a different culture
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and there's, it's that in itself is therapeutic, right?
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned about love because that's what
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I felt in the, you know, in the training, the
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: trainer's gym at Project Walk. Every time I stepped into
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the door, there was so much love from the trainers
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and other clients as well. And, you know, initially when
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I first came to America, of course, I was a
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: bit guarded, you know, because, you know, like American culture
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: is very shocking for many people. It's like, you know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: these are people who are a little bit on the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: noisy side and they're always like yelling across the gyms
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: and the music's like, you know, hip hop, rap and ongoing.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, these, you know, I'm not, I
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: wasn't used to it, but yeah. And, you know, like
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: a part of me kind of closed off my heart
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: after my accident because, you know, I just didn't, I
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: felt ashamed of my, you know, I was in a wheelchair.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I couldn't walk properly. Well, at that time I couldn't
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: even walk at all. Um, and I just felt like
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: my whole self image was, was disrupted or disjointed or
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: whatever word you want to describe it. But that's what
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: they did. They reached out to me in love, um,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: It started with inviting me to their places for dinners.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: And then we, you know, of course, I experienced American
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: culture food. And then after that, they'll take me to
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: football games. That was a different experience. It was fun.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I think I watched the Chargers. San Diego Chargers? Or
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: was it LA Chargers? I can't remember. But versus Broncos.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: San Diego. Oh, San Diego.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, I still have the jersey somewhere in my wardrobe. Yeah,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and that was really fun. I learned about tailgating, what
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: it actually really meant in America versus tailgating. And I
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: celebrated Thanksgiving. That was an interesting experience. Lots of food.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Delicious food.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So I became.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: I guess they invited me in. They showed unconditional love,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: trainers and clients. And slowly, I think my heart just
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: opened up. And they're just such people full of gratitude.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Like you experienced that, Craig, in America. They're just full
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of gratitude for the little things. So I think those
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: are the good things that I picked up from America.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's good and bad from everything, but those
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: are the good things I picked up from them. And
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: that shaped me the way I am right now, just
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: to be grateful for the little things.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Well, how beautiful, though, how beautiful that, like, you probably
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: felt like a stranger and a weirdo and then they
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: became your people. Correct. Then you're like, oh, no, I
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: love it here.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: At first you're like, do I belong here? And then
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: you're like, I don't want to not be here. I
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: love this place. Yes.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: And I think especially the clients over there and myself,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: we were kind of bound together by a common thread,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: like we're all spinal cord injury survivors. And for once,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: you know, my husband John had someone he could confide
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: in because there were other carers there or caregivers.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: So we had a little community that probably kept all
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of us going until the time we had to leave
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Project Walk. And a number of them are Australians as well.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: So they came back to set up their own centers
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: here in Australia. So that was fascinating that they carried
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: on to the good work they learned and to create
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: impact in their little community as well. So that was
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: amazing to see. And all of us went on to
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: grow in different ways and went to create impact in
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: our meaningful networks. So, um, yeah, so I think I,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: it was a very, um, you know, like I think
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: becoming a spinal cord injured patient just shaped the way I,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I practice nowadays as a doctor because medical school taught
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: me a lot about disease, right? Like this is whatever
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: heart disease, you got to do this, got to do that.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: But I think being a patient with spinal cord injury
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: taught me about suffering. They're not exactly the same thing
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: I have to say, because as doctors, we are trained
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: to diagnose. investigate and treat. We're very comfortable with clinical language.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And we might say, you know, like to the person,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: because I'm a pain physician, I look after people with
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: chronic pain. And then we might say things like, oh,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the scan is stable and there's nothing further surgically we
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: can do. You know, like clinically, those statements might sound appropriate, right,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to the clinician. But when you're the person in front
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: in the clinic or the person lying in the bed,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: you're often kind of asking different questions in your head, like,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I guess for my kids, like, will I ever walk again?
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: I was obsessed with walking again for some reason. Shouldn't be.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I'm usually obsessional anyway. But will I ever walk again
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: was a big one I had in my brain, in
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: my mind. And will I ever work again? I love
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: working as a doctor. Believe it or not, I do.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: And I think that, and then there was other one
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: deeper question that will, will somebody still love me? Like
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: questions like that, you know, very deep. And what's going
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: to happen to the life I thought I was going
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: to have, you know, like before my accident, I was
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: a hip hop dancer as well. That was the biggest
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: grief and loss I had. was the fact I couldn't
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: dance again.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I love hip-hop and rap. A lot of K-pop these
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: days have implemented a lot of hip-hop and rap. That's
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: probably why I'm kind of drawn towards that music now
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: as well. But I was a hip-hop dancer too.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: That's so fascinating.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love dancing.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have picked this. intelligent intellectual academic who grew
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: up in this you know kind of environment where it's
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: all about performance and success and achievement doing that's great
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: though what what a what an interesting combination i i
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: want to know so probably my listeners are going but
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: is she walking now like we don't know this so
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: so one are you walking now two i know the
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: answers to these questions but two is So what was
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: the timeline in terms of your physical progression?
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so fast forward, I spent about three years in America.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: So about 18 months after my injury, I travelled to Carlsbad.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know what Carlsbad was. I had to
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Google where it was. And I spent three years there
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: and I did learn how to walk again. And I
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: came back to Australia about early 2013. And at that time, interesting,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: towards the end of my final fourth stint at Project Walk.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: We had three exercise physiologists on the topic of exercise physiologists.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: We had three exercise physiologists from Melbourne came up to
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Carlsbad to learn Project Walk methodology. They were from this
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: organization called Spinal Cord Injuries Australia. And they were about
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: to set up a gym called Walk on Melbourne at
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that time. Now they're called Neuro Moves. They're rebranded. And
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: they just wanted to learn what my trainer, Mika, was
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: doing with me. So I became like, and I was perfect,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I guess, client to watch because I'm Australian and, you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: I'll be working with them anyway when I go back.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So they spent some time in Carlsbad just watching what project,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: what they do and all these things. And that's what
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I did. So when I finished up the project, what
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: eventually I started going to walk on Melbourne and Up
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: until I was pregnant with my boy, who's now 11
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: years old. So that was 11 years ago. But I
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: knew that when I came back to Melbourne, I had
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: to assemble my own Avengers. I had brilliant Avengers in
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Project Walk under one roof. But in Australia, in Melbourne,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: it was very fragmented. A huge part of my rehabilitation
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: involved clinical Pilates, which was actually very instrumental in my
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: neural recovery. So I was on a hunt to find
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: a physio who could do clinical Pilates. I found this
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: particular person called Jane, and she's still working with me
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: up to this day. And the thing with spinal cord injury,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: you just have to keep maintaining your function or else
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: you just won't be able to continue walking very much.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: So I found a clinical Pilates physio. I continued at
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Walk on Melbourne for the exercise physiology component. And that
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: helped me understood the difference between physios and exercise physiologists
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: as well. Very different, you know, like different specialties. And
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: not only that, I had to also do.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Hydrotherapy.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Hydrotherapy was very helpful for my recovery because I think
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: in the water, I just felt so free. I wrote
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: about it in my book as well.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: It's a great environment. Yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It's so great.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: And I could spend an hour in the pool, just
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: doing all the exercises and then lying on my back.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: as if I don't have a care in the world,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: even though I have a thousand things waiting to be
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: done at home, I could just do that and just
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: continue with my rehabilitation in the pool and, you know,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: having chats with the people in the pool, mainly, you know,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: the older people. They're always very curious. Why is this
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: young person always in the pool? But nevermind. That's my Sunday.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I guess my Sundays, that's what I do when the
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: kids go swimming. I do my hydrotherapy. Just have to
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: make the schedules work, right?
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: And can I ask right now, so what is it,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the 17th of September? And we're going to talk about
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: your book in a minute too. 17th of September, 2026.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Describe to us how you move now, like your current
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: kind of capacity and level of function.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I love it. As a rehab physician in me, I'm
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: very excited to answer that question. What I did from
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: the early days was to attach meaningful context to my
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: goals and I wanted to walk again for a certain
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: amount of distances so that I could do pleasurable activities
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: like going out for dining. I love food. And watching
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: a movie, walking in and walking out and transferring in
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: and out of cars. So right now, fast forward almost
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: two decades later, I can't believe it, two decades later,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: ever since I started my training back in Melbourne in 2013,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: it took me a year to get back to full-time
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: walking at work. So by I was doing part-time work
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: in Melbourne as a rehab registrar in 2013, but 2014,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: I worked full-time. I worked full-time and I walked full-time
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: That was a big year. 2014 was a huge year.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Not only I was working full-time, walking full-time, I had
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: exams to sit. So there was like three big, big
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: miles hurdles for me, but you know, like, um, I just,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: what I did was every time I felt really discouraged,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I'll think about the, the, you know, the very encouraging
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: times I had with my trainers at Project Walk. And
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: that got me through that whole year of, it was
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: a rough year, 2014, but I got there in the end.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: So fast forward right now, I'm still walking, walking full time.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: But let's say if I have to go to the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: airport to travel, wheelchair is definitely a must. Shopping, definitely,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: for obvious reasons, because I go to Chatty, as in
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Chadston Shopping Centre, a lot. I go to Doncaster Westfield.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Now you know where I live.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: But anyway. Chadston's the biggest shopping centre in the blood.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: I need a wheelchair at Chadston. That's enormous.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: You're ginormous. And I'm like, no, you've got to have
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: the wheelchair. But my goal this year, well, at least
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: for 20, my goal this year to work towards 2027 was,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: as I've spoke about, I'm a BTS ARMY. I'm a
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: BTS fan. They're coming to Australia for concerts next year.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: That's my goal. Next year is to survive the VIP day.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I got a VIP ticket for day one.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So I got to be there from 1 p.m. to
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: 11 p.m. You get it, Craig? And you're like, okay,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: this is like this old, I'm almost like 47 and
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, now I got to get my, thing
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: to i get my stuff together now i gotta train
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: up for this marathon called bts vip concert so.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: You are such a fan girl oh my god oh
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: yeah oh you have that is hilarious all.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Right that's my goal just for a couple of things.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: My first thing is um talk if you are okay
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to so talk a little bit about your faith in
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: the middle of all of this um Firstly, can I ask,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: are you a Christian? What is your religion?
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I'm a Christian, yes.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Yep. How did that kind of fit in with your,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know, your thinking and your expectation and... your,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I guess, your emotional regulation? I guess having faith kind
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: of is very calming and supportive in some ways, mentally
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: and emotionally. Like what role did that play for you?
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it played a huge role in my recovery. I
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: have to say in the early days, I was very
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: angry at God for obvious reasons, because I was young
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: when I had my accident and my injury. And I
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: blamed him a lot. Like, why do you do this
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: to me? How dare you do this to me? But
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize at that time it was grief and
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: loss and all these things. But then when I went
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: to America, that's when I truly healed from the inside out.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: And that's when I started to I guess, trust in
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Him more because I opened up my heart to people.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: You know, how the Americas just show so much love.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: And that's how, what happened, I started showing, you know,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: opening my heart, showing love to myself first and then
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: to others and then to God. So it's like, eventually
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: all worked out. So I guess, you know, with recovery,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: it's never a linear path. I just realized it's so non-linear.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I could write another book called Non-Linear Recovery or something
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: or Path. But maybe that's, that's how faith is tested
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: as well it's just you have to go through this
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: non-linear journey and eventually you get there in the end
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: but it's a very you know like there's lots of
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: hurdles and obstacles and here and there but i think
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: that's what faith is like you know be faithful with
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: the small the big will come and the big for
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: me the big that came was walking.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah and i guess from a you know, from that
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: point of view is learning to be okay with not
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: being in control of everything.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's the biggest one.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, well, I can't do this. So
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: second last question, how your experience, your peaks and troughs,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: your very non-linear recovery journey has How did that affect
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: or impact you as a doctor, the way that you
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: sit with people, the way that you treat patients, the
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: way that you, like, did it change? I'm sure it
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: changed the way that you saw your job and saw
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: patients and maybe did your job in inverted commas. How
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: did that work out?
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think if I were to look back
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and think, oh, I wish the doctors could have just
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: done that, I just remember when the healthcare professional was
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: just talking over me. I was just lying a bit paralyzed.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: And I just remember feeling so vulnerable. I'm like, here
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I am just lying down paralyzed and they're just talking over,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: you know, like this. I became like something that people
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: discuss and examine. And I just remember the people. I
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: remember the people who made me feel like Olivia rather
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: than the spinal cord injured patient or the spinal cord
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: injured doctor in bed number 23 or something. I don't
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: know why I chose 23. Is it because of Michael Jordan?
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't know why I remember 23 because I
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: think my brothers love NBA and I think of Michael
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Jordan all the time. But I just remember the people
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: who made me feel like I was Olivia again. It'll
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: be people like the hospitality people who deliver food every
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: morning and say, good morning, this is your breakfast. With
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: a smile, not like, oh, this is breakfast. With a smile.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: And I just remember like for us spinal cord injured patients,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: we have to be turned every four hours in the
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: early days to prevent pressure sores. And every night we
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: had these two big guys who look like they're security guards,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: like bouncers. They will be the gentlest giants. They'll turn
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: me as if I was a, you know, a little...
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: A little, you know, little whatever. A little potato. A
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: little precious child.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: A little precious baby.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I just said potato. I call myself potato. But it
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: turned me on as if I was a gentle, like
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: very so ever gently like a potato or a child.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, wow. They showed so much
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: love and respect and kindness. They didn't like throw me around.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Like sometimes when I change my kid's nappy, he'll be like.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: And just that experience, the kindness I felt, just amazing.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: fundamentally changed the way I practice medicine now. Like, yes,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I still care deeply about clinical evidence and good clinical medicine,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: but becoming more compassionate to me doesn't mean you become
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: less scientific. I think that's what some of my colleagues misunderstand.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: But now I'm more conscious that every time I'm consulting
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: with someone in the clinic, there's two stories happening. There's
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the medical story, oh, that's diagnosis, pathology, treatment, prognosis. which
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: us doctors are very good at, but there's also the
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: human story, the human in front of us, the identity, fear,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the fears our patients have. They worry about their relationships,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: their work, their meaning, their hope. So they've got a
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: lot of things going on in their mind. And I
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: think good clinical medicine will have room for both.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting? You just said something that I wrote down,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: so I'm not being rude because it was profound. And
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: that is being more compassionate does not mean being less scientific.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Or something like that. And I'm like, that is so good.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: It's like, and I know, and there are a million
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: variables and I love doctors and all that, but it's
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: like my mum just went into full-time care. So she's
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: in a, anyway. God bless her. She's gorgeous. She's 87.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: And she weighs, how about this doc? She weighs 37 kilos.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Like she's tiny, right? But it's funny because the staff
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: in there are so good. And it's like when you say, oh,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: sometimes someone who's bringing my breakfast. Like sometimes the person
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: who brings your breakfast or empties the bin in your
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: room or whatever it is, right?
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they're better for you, your healing, than the doctor
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: who's talking over the top of you, ignoring you, right?
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: You go like and because, yes, of course, the clinical,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: the medical, the science, of course, but also I'm here
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: and I'm a human. Exactly. Like acknowledgement or maybe just
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: as you're talking, put your hand on my arm just
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: like or my shoulder. Yeah. or just some sense of
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: emotional awareness that i'm here and i'm not i'm living
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: in a body but i'm not a body right so
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: you're talking you're talking about the body but you're not
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: acknowledging the human the person the you know it's like
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and of course doctors are under the pump and overworked.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: It still can be human, Craig. It can still be human.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: It can still be human.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: So the book is called Back on My Feet by Dr.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Olivia Lee Long through HarperCollins. It was published in late Feb. Well, congratulations.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Is this your first book?
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Well, first traditionally published book. I've self-published quite a lot
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: of Feb.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, well done on your first.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: That's a big deal too, HarperCollins. Look at you, like
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: a grown-up author. That's amazing. So tell us a bit
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: about the book.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: Well, interesting because for many years I didn't quite think
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: think of myself as a writer. Like I was, you know,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: all these years when I resumed medical training, had kids
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: and all these things, I was just, and patients are curious.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: They'll ask me what happened to you. And I explained,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: so I felt like I was just this doctor who
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: had this extraordinary thing happened to them, but I, Over
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: the years, when I shared parts of my story, people
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: will just come up afterwards, not just patients and other people,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: will tell me about their own story. And I think
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: what fascinated me was that all of them obviously didn't
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: have a spinal cord injury. There were some, but not
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: all of them. They all had experienced things like divorce, burnout, illness, infertility,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: career loss, disappointment of some sort. And I realized that
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: the story... you know, wasn't really about walking. Yes, walking's
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: part of it. That's, you know, that's my journey. And
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: the title's called Back on My Feet. But underneath all
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: of that, I think why so many readers found it
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: so relevant for them because it's a story essentially about,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: you know, when life doesn't go according to plan and
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: you have to kind of build your sense of who
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: you are. The whole identity piece is very strongly themed
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: in this book because that was a whole journey in
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: itself for me, the identity piece. And later on as
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: a coach, I learned, oh, that's a big part in
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: coaching work coaching school isn't it they teach you all
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: about identity values blah you know not blah but you
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: know like all these things i shouldn't say that sorry
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: coach but um yeah i think writing the writing process
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: was actually very healing there were a lot of things
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: i thought i had you know intellectually processed and got
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: you know like it's kind of popped nicely in some
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: parts of my brain But I needed to access that.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: That was one. Secondly, I wanted to write a love
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: letter to all my trainers at Project World, the clients,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: all of us that love each other very much, and
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: to the people that supported me along the way, like
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: my husband, John, my neurophysiotherapist, Gavin, and many other members
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: of my rehab team. I wanted to write a love
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: letter to all of them. What best way to write
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: a love letter than a book? Each chapter is a
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: love letter. And, you know, pop music was also a
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: huge part of that book as well. I talk about
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: pop songs. It's funny because 2011, I went to watch
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Bruno Mars and now 15 years later, next year, I'm
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: watching BM again in Melbourne. So I'm very excited to
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: go again. But writing just helped me process all of that.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: And I think on stage, because I do a lot
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: of professional speaking myself now, it's kind of it's easier
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: to do it on stage. It's very, well, it's polished
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: in a way, you know how the story ends. But
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: memoir was a whole different journey. You know, it made
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: me go, or rather it asked me to go back
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: into the uncertainty that popped in the little corner of
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: my brain and and remember and to actually remember how
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: what i knew and felt at that time especially about
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: the accident itself the impact that was the hardest part
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: to write an audiobook was a whole different experience again
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: that's even worse actually because you have to actually now
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: feel in it and be in it and talk about
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: it in audiobook it's very vulnerable we had a lot
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: of tears me and the audio engineer had a lot
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: of tears but anyway we got through that.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Um Wow, that's a tough– how long did that take
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: to record?
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, that was tough. That was 25 hours
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: worth of recording, but only nine hours made it commercially.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: But I expected it because, you know, there was a
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff that they had to edit and things.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: But I think the book writing process made me realise
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: that Some of the things that I used to interpret
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: as weakness in the past as doctor was actually evidence
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: that I was human, like all those fear and anger
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: and grief in the early days. And the moments where
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't feel resilient at all, I felt like, crap,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: you know, they belong in this story. So I think
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing I learned from writing the book, The
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Back of My Feet, was that we just don't write
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: memoirs to record what happened to us. We actually write
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: to understand the meaning of what that experience means to us.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: To me, my memoir writing process taught me, oh, this
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: is what the accident meant to me, and this is
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: what this part of the journey meant to me, and
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: all these things. And that's why I think beautifully storytelling,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I love storytelling, and that's why storytelling... becomes connection i
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: guess to the readers to the audience um because someone
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: will recognize i saw there's a part of my story
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: that someone goes oh i identify with olivia what she
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: went through there yes and then yeah she gives me
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: hope and makes me feel hopeful for the future and
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: that's that's my uh wish i guess for for the
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: book is to make people feel hopeful again for the
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: future i i think.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Um Thank you. That's beautiful. I don't envy 25 hours
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: doing the recording. That sucks. But I think the thing
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: too is like while you understand, you know, the physiology
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and neurology and all the, you know, the clinical stuff,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: which is interesting, but what really builds connection and understanding
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: with an audience is stories. Correct. Stories provoke emotion, whereas
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: data does not. Yeah, 100%. Just information, well, it can,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: but obviously not in a good way sometimes. But moreover,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: people are engaged with, and I find this even on
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: a stage, even a very corporate environment. If 30% of
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: my presentation is a bit of humour and a bit
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: of storytelling... But it's interwoven with some research and some
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: ideas and some strategies and it's presented in the right way.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: People are engaged. Whereas if I stand up as a
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: pracademic and I've got 35 PowerPoint slides and people are
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: looking at the slides, not me, and I'm basically just
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: doing a monologue based on some pre-prepared whatever, people are disconnected,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: not connected. But if I'm on the stage and I'm
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: walking around and I am looking at the audience and
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: there's nothing else to look at on the stage except
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: me and I'm building that, you know, I'm interacting, yeah,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: it's that. And I think that's the beauty of, you know,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: books and presentations or even like this podcast. You know,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: we spoke before. Yeah. And I said, I don't have
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: any set. I've got nothing written down. Like I know
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: a little bit about you, but I want to get
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: to know more about you. So let's have a conversation.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Let's not do an interview, which is exactly what we've done.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: And a lot of the last hour or so has
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: been stories and people, you know, so it's, it's, It's awesome.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Let's just go again, everyone. It's called Back On My Feet. It's,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: as we know, available in audio. Thankfully, you won't get
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: the 25-hour version. I think nine is plenty. And it's
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: also available on Kindle and things like that where people
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: can download it. Is that right, Olivia? Exactly. Yeah.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Awesome.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: And if people want to just.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Um connect with you somehow where do we point them
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: to a website to social media where do you want
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: people to go.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah i think if people want to connect with me
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: the easiest place is my website like you said dr
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: olivia leon.com i'm also very active on linkedin and instagram
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: my favorite one of my favorite platforms and of course
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: as craig said i'm back on my face available wherever
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: people buy books depends whether you're an audio person or
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: physical book person you know it's It's up to you.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: And believe it or not, Christmas is not that far away.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Maybe you should get five and just give them away
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: as presents. What do you think? Hey, Doc, it's been great.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: You're awesome. I loved meeting you. I loved hearing your story.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye off air, but for the minute, we'll
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: say goodbye to the listeners. Thanks so much.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.