Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Clare Rowe on the Mental Health Industrial Complex

Transcript

Clare Rowe on the Mental Health Industrial Complex · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: G'day, this is the Happy Families podcast. About a month ago,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I had a wonderful conversation with an educational and developmental
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: psychologist based in Sydney by the name of Claire Rowe.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: You might have seen her articles in the paper. You
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: might have seen her on any number of different TV
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: shows talking about some of the biggest challenges that our
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: children are facing from a psychological point of view, but
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  Speaker 1: also what the psychology culture of today is doing to us. Today,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: we're going to step into, I'm going to call it
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: a really hot button topic, Claire and I are going
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  Speaker 1: to discuss the mental health industrial complex for a decade
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: or more. We've been telling our kids, probably for two
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: decades actually, we've been telling our kids to talk about
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  Speaker 1: their feelings, to name the anxiety, to check in on
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  Speaker 1: their mental health, to do the wellbeing module. And over
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  Speaker 1: that same decade, with all of this extra emphasis on
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: our kids and their mental health, All we've seen happen
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: is that rates of anxiety and depression in young people
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  Speaker 1: have gone up rather than down. Resilience has plummeted rather
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: than grown. And Claire Rowe doesn't think that's a coincidence.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that next. Stay with us. Hello,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where you get real
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: My name is Dr. Justin Coulson. I'm a dad of
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  Speaker 1: six kids, and today I'm with Claire Rowe. Claire's got
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: her own kids plus a psychology practice, and she writes
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and speaks about all things mental health and psychological as
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  Speaker 1: it applies to our kids. Claire, really good to have
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  Speaker 1: you on the podcast today. I want to start with
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  Speaker 1: a really simple idea. Nowadays, it seems like tricky people
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: are all narcissists. It feels like if we're dealing with difficulty,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: it's trauma. If somebody is struggling, They're depressed. And if
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: there's anything that we're nervous, worried, or concerned about, it's
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  Speaker 1: an anxiety disorder. What's going on? Have I got this right?
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  Speaker 1: Am I overstating? I mean, I don't feel like psychologists
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  Speaker 1: speak like this, but I do feel like the lexicon
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: from TikTok and Instagram, the psychology that's being repeated on
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  Speaker 1: social media is creating something that's not actually, I want
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  Speaker 1: to say real. That feels like it could be a
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  Speaker 1: bit harsh. Help me out here.
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  Speaker 2: No, it's not harsh. You're speaking my language. Yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: a real problem. And when you say psychologists don't speak
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  Speaker 2: like that or psychiatrists, I mean, we did. These are
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  Speaker 2: very clinical terms. This is clinical medical language. A narcissist
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  Speaker 2: is a diagnosis of a personality disorder that at one
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  Speaker 2: point was confined to a doctor or a mental health
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  Speaker 2: clinician doing a full assessment, thorough assessment and giving a
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  Speaker 2: medical diagnosis. And now, as you said, it's on TikTok.
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  Speaker 1: Now a difficult mother-in-law, she's a narcissist, right?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And anyone who disagrees with you is gaslighting
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  Speaker 2: you or toxic. We've got to put boundaries in place.
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  Speaker 2: And all of this therapy speak, as I call it,
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  Speaker 2: has escaped the therapy room. And it was language there,
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  Speaker 2: I think, between professionals too, to be able to you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of quickly describe patterns of behaviour. But now it's
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  Speaker 2: escaped and it's out there in the world and it's
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  Speaker 2: on social media and people are going to love or
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  Speaker 2: hate this when I say this, but it will give
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  Speaker 2: people great excuses to not look at themselves for their
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  Speaker 2: own behaviour or to blame other people, to not take responsibility,
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  Speaker 2: to not do hard things. You know, someone who says, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I saw her on TikTok. I've got to
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  Speaker 2: put a boundary in place. I've got to go no contact.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I've got to cut family members off now.
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  Speaker 1: Families are being decimated by this. It just breaks my heart.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So where did all that, I suppose,
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  Speaker 2: come from? Apart from, I think, a huge driver, as
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  Speaker 2: you said, is social media, massive driver.
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  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: But in terms of mental health awareness and language, like
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  Speaker 2: most things in life, the pendulum swings and it swings
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  Speaker 2: too far and then it comes back. I think there
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  Speaker 2: was probably a sweet spot where we decided that mental
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  Speaker 2: health education and the awareness of what mental health difficulties
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  Speaker 2: were needed to come out of the shame and the
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  Speaker 2: cupboard of darkness. And that was a great thing. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that probably started in the late 90s where,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the government introduced funding schemes, Medicare, to get
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  Speaker 2: to mental health, you know, assistance and therapy. Fantastic. And
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  Speaker 2: it really... was a drive with very well intentions to,
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  Speaker 2: we've probably all heard it, that if you have a
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  Speaker 2: mental health illness, that's the same as a broken leg.
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  Speaker 2: It's the same as a physical problem and we should
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  Speaker 2: not have any judgment on shame of those who do
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  Speaker 2: have mental health difficulties. And then somewhere along the line,
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  Speaker 2: that pendulum, I think, just kept swinging to, instead of
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  Speaker 2: normalising seeking help for a mental health problem, We've kind
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  Speaker 2: of normalized having the mental health problem itself. So everyone
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  Speaker 2: has anxiety. It's normal. Everyone has kind of these moments
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  Speaker 2: of feeling depressed and that's normal. And okay, those feelings
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  Speaker 2: can be part of a normal human psyche. But also,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to live in a first
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  Speaker 2: world country where it's normal to have over 50% of
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  Speaker 2: the population meet the criteria for a diagnosis. That's not
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  Speaker 2: normal to me. It's like I don't want to live
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  Speaker 2: in a population where it's normal to be obese or
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  Speaker 2: normal to have poor physical health. So we want to
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  Speaker 2: be careful about what we're normalizing and accepting. But then
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  Speaker 2: further to your point, have we kind of broadened the
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  Speaker 2: language so far that we're not even talking about mental
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  Speaker 2: health diagnosis. We're talking about the normal ups and downs
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  Speaker 2: of life. We're talking about stress and distress and people's
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  Speaker 2: ability to be able to cope in life when we
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  Speaker 2: have an array of negative feelings because that's life.
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  Speaker 1: Which brings me to labels. So I feel like parents
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  Speaker 1: do this at a low level and also at a, well,
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to use the word clinical at a clinical level.
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  Speaker 1: So parents might say, oh, she's my anxious one or
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  Speaker 1: he's my sensitive one.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And what does that do to a child to be
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  Speaker 1: described that way by their parents inside their own family?
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  Speaker 2: You're probably not surprised to hear that as someone working
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  Speaker 2: in a mental health clinic with children and adolescents, children
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  Speaker 2: often come into our office saying, I have anxiety. I
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: have depression.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm depressed.
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  Speaker 2: I find that just astonishing. And I always try to
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  Speaker 2: change that language. First of all, I actually don't use
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  Speaker 2: the word anxiety. I just use worries. And I feel worried.
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  Speaker 2: That's okay. I feel worried rather than I have something
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  Speaker 2: that is kind of this identity to me or imposed
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  Speaker 2: on me because it becomes very self-fulfilling.
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  Speaker 1: I remember my nan used to say, oh, you've got
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  Speaker 1: the blues, do you? If I was down, she'd say, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you've got the blues. But now we've gone the other way.
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  Speaker 1: We don't say, I have anxiety about the test. We say,
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  Speaker 1: I have anxiety. Full stop. Or worse, as you said,
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  Speaker 1: I'm anxious, which isn't a possession. It's not something that
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  Speaker 1: you have. It's something that you are. My question is this.
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  Speaker 1: When does a label genuinely help? Because I'm not anti-label,
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  Speaker 1: and you're a psychologist, so I'm assuming you're not anti-label either.
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  Speaker 1: But I do have Yeah, I completely agree.
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  Speaker 2: I think that labels can be beneficial. I have colleagues
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  Speaker 2: who disagree with that, actually. They want to get rid
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  Speaker 2: of all labels. But I'm not as radical. I think
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  Speaker 2: labels can help understand oneself, particularly when you do have
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  Speaker 2: more of a developmental condition. And perhaps a developmental disorder
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  Speaker 2: like autism or something that probably is not going to
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  Speaker 2: go away and it helps you understand your brain and
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  Speaker 2: how it works or ADHD and it helps you, yeah, okay,
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  Speaker 2: I understand who I am and why I react the
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  Speaker 2: way I do and why I see the world the
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  Speaker 2: way I do. And then it can help others around,
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  Speaker 2: make those accommodations and understand you as a person. And
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  Speaker 2: of course, we know that labels are linked very heavily
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  Speaker 2: still to opportunities for access to help, whether that be
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  Speaker 2: financial access or, you know, access to programs and so forth.
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  Speaker 2: So they are important, but I think, I do think
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  Speaker 2: that they are overused. I mean, I think I've been
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  Speaker 2: saying this for the best part of 15 years and
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  Speaker 2: I think that the last few years people are starting
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  Speaker 2: to agree with me. I didn't have many supporters 10
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  Speaker 2: years ago when I was saying it, but I thought
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  Speaker 2: I can really see where this is going. I can
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  Speaker 2: really see that labelling, you know, every emotion as having
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  Speaker 2: some type of mental health difficulty is not going to motivate, encourage,
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  Speaker 2: burn people on to overcome that adversity.
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  Speaker 1: Music Okay, we're back. It's the Happy Families podcast. Today
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  Speaker 1: I'm with Claire Rowe. Claire's got her own kids plus
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  Speaker 1: a psychology practice. I've been fascinated by some research out
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  Speaker 1: of the UK. It's been really promoted by a psychologist
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  Speaker 1: over there by the name of Lucy Folks. Also a
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  Speaker 1: psychiatrist in the UK by the name of Sammy Tamimi.
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  Speaker 1: Really making strong arguments and pointing to research evidence that
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  Speaker 1: indicates that all these mental health conversations that we're having
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  Speaker 1: with kids in schools are And yet, my sense is
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  Speaker 1: that the most common, the strongest argument against what you're
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  Speaker 1: saying would be that we need to talk about it
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  Speaker 1: because this is better mental health literacy. Like once upon
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  Speaker 1: a time, people used to suffer in silence. They had
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  Speaker 1: no words for this at all. And aren't we better
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  Speaker 1: off with a slightly overused vocabulary? Isn't that better than
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  Speaker 1: no vocabulary at all? I hear that claim all the time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm told, you know, Claire Rowe
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  Speaker 2: wants to send people back to the 1950s. We want
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  Speaker 2: to put up and shut up and we're not to
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  Speaker 2: talk about our feelings anymore. And that is absolutely not
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  Speaker 2: the case. Coming back, you know, to where we started,
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  Speaker 2: I think we need to be very careful about the
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  Speaker 2: use of language and the clinical use of language and
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  Speaker 2: the fact that our kids have access to the internet now.
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  Speaker 2: And if we're going to teach people about their young
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  Speaker 2: children about anxiety and they're going to Google that. They're
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  Speaker 2: going to see a very strong medical clinical diagnosis rather
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  Speaker 2: than teaching young children that it is okay to one,
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  Speaker 2: have feelings that you don't like, of sadness, of worry.
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  Speaker 2: I'll prefer to use those terms. Two, it's okay to
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  Speaker 2: put your hand up for help for that. There's nothing
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  Speaker 2: wrong with you. It's normal. It's okay. There are things
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  Speaker 2: that we can do to help you. So I just
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  Speaker 2: think that we've gone too far on the clinical language,
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  Speaker 2: but also too far on the emphasis. And I love
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  Speaker 2: those people that you referenced. They've also spoken about this,
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  Speaker 2: as has a great author, Abigail Schreier in the US.
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  Speaker 2: And Abigail talks a lot about the fact that one
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  Speaker 2: of the ironies of this modern health movement that we
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: have is that the more we think and focus on
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: our emotions, we think the healthier we will become. And
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: you may know, Justin, that... One of the great things
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: about focusing inward on oneself is that it is actually
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: closely tied to what we call neuroticism, which is kind
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: of depression, anxiety feelings. And actually what helps the human
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: is looking outward. What can we do for others and
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  Speaker 2: putting ourselves in a place in the world that is bigger,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: which is why family and community and being part of
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  Speaker 2: something bigger is so important for us. So my concern
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  Speaker 2: is this constant focus on how are you feeling today?
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Let's mark the feeling on the feeling chart. Where do
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  Speaker 2: you feel that in your body? For the entire... grade
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  Speaker 2: three population is not in fact helpful to getting them
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  Speaker 2: to feel better because if you ask someone repetitively how
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: you feel through your day including myself at work today
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  Speaker 2: the answer will end up being negative yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah i'm a bit tired i'm a bit hungry i'm
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: a bit stressed i've got a bit better stuff going
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: on i'd rather be on a beach in bali yeah
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  Speaker 1: yeah moment of therapy for me just just quickly clear
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  Speaker 1: um about a month ago i went through a really
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: hard time uh like I was down in the dumps.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I was feeling awful. I was feeling depressed. I felt
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: like I'd lost purpose. I'd lost my mojo. I'd lost everything.
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  Speaker 1: I don't actually... I'm a 50-year-old man. I've got a
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: PhD in psychology. I've been teaching people about well-being for
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: a couple of decades. And I found myself literally not
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: wanting to move. And what you said before is... it
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: resonates so much because I had to give myself a
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: little bit of an up cut and realize this is
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: not about me. There's a phrase that I heard one
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: dad shared with his son who was complaining because life
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: was hard. He wasn't enjoying what he thought he was
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. And his dad just said, forget
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: yourself and go to work. And it's a little bit
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: of tough medicine in some ways. And I cringe as
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I say it in some ways, and I know many
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  Speaker 1: people will. And yet it took me to get out
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: of my own way, stop thinking about myself and literally
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: just get on with it before I was able to
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  Speaker 1: shake off the funk. Action. I feel as though action
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  Speaker 1: is the greatest antidote there is for our anxiety and
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  Speaker 1: our sadness and our frustrations. Take action, especially action that's
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: not focused on self, but focused on something bigger than self,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: whether it's relationships or whether it's work or whether it's
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: sport or whether it's religion or whatever it is that's
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: bigger than you that you get into. It seems like
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: that is better than sitting in the bedroom, eating some
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: double choc fudge connoisseur ice cream out of those one
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: litre containers and staring at your navel. Not that I'm
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: speaking from experience, Clare.
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  Speaker 2: That does sound pretty good. No, no, you're absolutely right.
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  Speaker 2: And people listening to this, you know, it is a balance.
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  Speaker 2: It is a balance. We have done fabulous work in
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: initiatives like Are You Okay Day? I mean, that's great.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: We need to look out for people. We need to
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: monitor people. It's that balance between that and if I
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: could have one slogan in our psychology clinic here in
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  Speaker 2: Sydney that I always repeat and want it up in
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  Speaker 2: neon lights, it is, you can do hard things. I'm
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: always trying to tell kids, my own daughter this morning
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  Speaker 2: actually getting to school, is that you can do this
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: and you might have a pretty rotten day. You're not
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: feeling 100%. I agree. It might not be the best day,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: but you know what? At the end of it, you're
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: going to have an head and two arms and two legs.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: She looked at me, I said, you're going to survive that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And I'll be here for you when you get home
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: and we'll chat about it then, but you can do
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: hard things. And I just don't want to teach an
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: entire generation of children to take their kind of psychological
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: temperature every five minutes. And then we, as I say,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: we worry when they've got a fever. Sometimes action is
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: a great antidote to getting on with things and putting
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: one foot in front of the other.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask for your top five steps
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: and all that kind of thing, but I actually think
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: that's a really good place to stop right there. That mantra,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: you can do hard things, take action. My mum used
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: to always say when I was feeling lousy and I'd say,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I can't do it, I can't. And then I would
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: say can't means don't want to. And while I'm not
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: huge on tough love and dismissing children's distress, I don't
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: think that's helpful. It feels like the pendulum has swung
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: too far and we need to bring it back a
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: little bit to a sensible centre. And this conversation that
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: we've had, Claire, feels like it's part of the antidote,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: part of what our children need to thrive and flourish.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: You've been so generous with your time. I've loved this conversation.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I said it last time we talked and I'm saying
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: it again. I reckon you and I could sit down
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: for weeks and just not ever stop talking about all
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: these things. They're fascinating. You do a great job with
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: your content. If people want to know more about how
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: they can access what you've written or even your services
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: in the south of Sydney, where should they go?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can follow me online. I'm on the
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: gram on Instagram at Claire Rowe Psychologist or we are, yes,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: in Sydney at Rowe and Associates, but you can Google
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: my name and find it pretty easily. Fantastic.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Well, it's great to talk with you and I love
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: your insights and your wisdom. Thanks for sharing.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Justin.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: That's Claire Rowe Psychologist focusing on educational and developmental psychology
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: and her Rowe and Associates Clinic in Sydney. Sound and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: audio engineering on the Happy Families podcast is taken care
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: of by Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. Wim Hammonds looks
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: after our admin and other support. And for more details
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: about making your family happier, you'll find it at happyfamilies.com.au.