Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / 90s Jam Bands: The Untold Stories Of An Iconic Era [Episode 305]

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90s Jam Bands: The Untold Stories Of An Iconic Era [Episode 305] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Coming up on Booked on Rock, The untold stories behind
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the rise of bands like Blues Traveler, Fish, Spin Doctors,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the Dave Matthews Band. We're talking the nineties jam band explosion. Next,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: we're totally booming rock and roll.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll leave you.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: You're reading Little Hands says it's time to rock and
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: roll rock band rout. I totally booked everybody. Welcome back
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to Booked on Rock. Americ senach to. This episode's guest
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: is Mike Ayers. He's the author of Sharing the Groove,
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  Speaker 1: The Untold Story of the nineties jam band explosion and
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  Speaker 1: the scene that followed. Thanks for being here, Mike.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Thanks Eric.
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  Speaker 1: I was telling you just before we started recording, buying
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: tickets to see Blues Traveler. Jim Blossom's been Spin Doctors,
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  Speaker 1: so good timing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the nineties is alive and well.
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  Speaker 1: As a huge fan of these bands, I'm really interested
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  Speaker 1: in your background. Who actually had a firsthand experience working
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: with Fish in the nineties.
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  Speaker 2: I did. It was a wild story. A very good
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  Speaker 2: friend of mine. We were huge fans starting and I
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: don't know, we saw our first shows in ninety four
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  Speaker 2: and ninety five came around. We were itching we'd seen
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: a bunch of shows in summer ninety five and we
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  Speaker 2: were itching to see a show in fall ninety five,
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  Speaker 2: and we cooked up this plan to go from Blacksburg,
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  Speaker 2: Virginia to the Palace in Auburn Hills, Michigan. They were
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  Speaker 2: playing there on Saturday night ten twenty eight, ninety five.
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  Speaker 2: I got some tickets and we were all set to go,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: and then I was looking at there a tenerary and
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  Speaker 2: I was like, you know, they're in Kalamazoo, Michigan the
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  Speaker 2: night before. It would be insane if we went all
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the way to Michigan and only saw one show when
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: they were playing two. And I was like, so, what
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  Speaker 2: do you think should we go to Friday night as well?
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  Speaker 2: It sold out? We don't have tickets as a minor
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: league hockey arena, like it could be a little tricky.
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  Speaker 2: She was like, yes, we should definitely do that. I
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  Speaker 2: was like great. So we left on Thursday night and
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  Speaker 2: drove all night. We got to the parking lot at
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: around eleven the next morning in Kalamazoo. We weaseled our
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: way in through the security guard to the actual parking lot.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: I went across the street to go to the bathroom
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: at a bowling alley. When I came out, she was
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: talking to what was to me a random woman, It
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  Speaker 2: was someone who worked for Fish. She was asking if
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  Speaker 2: we had tickets. We said no, and she was perplexed
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  Speaker 2: that we would drive all the way from Virginia to
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: a show without tickets. And we were like, well, we're
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: very confident that we'll get in, and she was like, well,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that we've been doing
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: is we've been offering kids that don't have tickets if
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: they want to prep cook for the band for the
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: day for an exchange for tickets and passes, you can
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: do that. And we were like, yes, yes, we will
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  Speaker 2: do that, and she wheeled us backstage. Within like five minutes,
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  Speaker 2: we're backstage meeting their chefs. They traveled at that point
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  Speaker 2: with a you know, part of their crew was professional
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  Speaker 2: cook and they got us to work immediately, scrubbing potatoes,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: washing dishes, like doing all the work you do when
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: you're nineteen years old and a band that you love
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: tells you what to do. We did it and it
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  Speaker 2: just kind of blossomed from there. They liked us, they
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: connected with us, the cooks, and so Fish had them
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: with them for a long time, and so any show
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  Speaker 2: that we wanted to go to from there, we could
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  Speaker 2: just get in touch with the chefs.
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  Speaker 1: There's the sweet spot right there.
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  Speaker 2: There's a sweet spot. Like that night we were having
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  Speaker 2: dinner and we were you know, we've been on our
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  Speaker 2: feet all day, we're pretty exhausted, and the head chef,
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  Speaker 2: I'll never forget, she just is sitting at the table
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  Speaker 2: with us kind of making conversation and it's just like, so,
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  Speaker 2: are you guys going to Chicago? And that was like
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: in four days, and that was the Halloween show they
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: played Quadrophenia and we were like, no, we're not going
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  Speaker 2: to Chicago. Of course we love to. It's been sold
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  Speaker 2: out for months. And she just, like deadpan, looks us
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  Speaker 2: in the eye and says, well, why don't you just
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  Speaker 2: come and cook? And we said, yes, yes, we will
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  Speaker 2: come to Chicago. We will cook, we will blow off
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  Speaker 2: classes we're in and we did and it just kind
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  Speaker 2: of went from there. They stopped getting kids from the
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  Speaker 2: tour lot that tour nine Fall ninety five, but I
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  Speaker 2: guess we connected with them. We weren't crazy around the band.
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  Speaker 2: We just kept ourselves, We did our work. We loved
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  Speaker 2: the music, we saw, the shows, we drove to the
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  Speaker 2: next one. We were nineteen year old kids, but I
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  Speaker 2: like to think we kept it pretty professional and we
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: had a sweet deal. We didn't want to jeopardize anything.
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  Speaker 2: We were pinching ourselves. You know. We were backstage with
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  Speaker 2: our favorite band at some of the biggest shows New
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  Speaker 2: Year's ninety five, New Year's ninety seven, and you know,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Quadrophenia Island Tour, like all sorts of things that became
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: seminole in fish history. I think they were on fire.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: They're on fire.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I was just telling my chiropractor yesterday I had my appointment,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and he knows I have this podcast. Just read any
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: good books lately, I said, funny, you should ask. I
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: read a really awesome book on the nineties jam band explosion,
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  Speaker 1: and he said, what's a jam band? I was like,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: whoa wait a minute. I got to remind myself that
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: some people may not be aware of this. I said, well,
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  Speaker 1: it's bands basically who maybe take a three four minute
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  Speaker 1: song they record in the studio and extend it and
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  Speaker 1: just kind of improvise and they change up the set list.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the best way I could describe it.
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  Speaker 1: I said, it's kind of like a jazz band type
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  Speaker 1: of thing. How would you best describe a jam ban I've.
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  Speaker 2: Been asked the same question. It's really rock bands, or
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  Speaker 2: jazz bands or funk bands that have an improv ethos. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: So they believe in improv they believe in live music,
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  Speaker 2: they believe in marrying those things together, and I think,
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  Speaker 2: as the book explains, in certain ways, they hold that
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  Speaker 2: to such a high standard in their life and their
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  Speaker 2: creation of art that labels at the time, radio at
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  Speaker 2: the time, record stores sure will interact with them. But
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  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the community and the
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  Speaker 2: people that are watching us play and experiencing us, they
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  Speaker 2: matter the most. They're going to matter the most. Now,
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  Speaker 2: not every band had that experience throughout the nineties, but
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  Speaker 2: they certainly started out that way. And there's a lot
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  Speaker 2: of bands that have carried on that ethos today, which
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  Speaker 2: is really great to see. And the bands from that
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  Speaker 2: era as well are still going on believe that. It's
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  Speaker 2: not to say they don't love the studio. They of
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  Speaker 2: course they love making a great studio record, and they
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  Speaker 2: some of the records that they made back then are phenomenal.
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  Speaker 2: But a jam band for me is just you know,
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  Speaker 2: one that believes in their audience and live music and
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  Speaker 2: making sure that they're delivering that in as a powerful
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  Speaker 2: way as possible they can every night, and they believe
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  Speaker 2: that and wherever that takes them, that's cool.
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  Speaker 1: And you talk to so many people for the book,
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  Speaker 1: it's really not who you talk to, it's who didn't
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  Speaker 1: you talk to. You talk to guys in Blues travel
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  Speaker 1: God Street, Wine, Spin Doctors. They all take us back
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  Speaker 1: to the origins of the scene. And the first quote
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  Speaker 1: from the first chapter is from David Graham, the manager
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  Speaker 1: of Blues Traveler, who says, quote, Princeton is the forgotten
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  Speaker 1: center of rock and roll. So let's start there. Take
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  Speaker 1: us back to Princeton, New Jersey, the origins of the
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  Speaker 1: nineties jam band scene. This would be back to mid.
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  Speaker 2: Eighties, yeah, like the early eighties early Yeah. To me,
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  Speaker 2: it was just really interesting that you had Low and
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  Speaker 2: Tamo from God Street, you had Trey from Fish, Tom
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  Speaker 2: Marshall who's written with Trey, Chris from Spin Doctors, the
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  Speaker 2: Blues Traveler guys, they all lived there, They all knew
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  Speaker 2: who each other was. They all interacted in certain ways,
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  Speaker 2: some more than others. But they developed in Princeton and
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  Speaker 2: from there went off to New York, went off to
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  Speaker 2: Burlington and started to develop their craft as banned But
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  Speaker 2: to me, that's really where they got their start. And
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  Speaker 2: at the same time, you had widespread panic and Athens
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  Speaker 2: doing the same thing. Fish up in Burlington was getting together.
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  Speaker 2: You've even had Sprinklings out in Boulder. So things were
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  Speaker 2: happening that were from kids that grew up on radio.
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  Speaker 2: But they believed in live performance. They'd seen the Dead,
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  Speaker 2: they'd seen Zappa, they'd seen jazz musicians, and they melded
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  Speaker 2: that into a philosophy. I think that live is where
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  Speaker 2: we're at. You know, when Blues Traveler moved to New
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  Speaker 2: York and those guys were living there and they were
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  Speaker 2: just getting started. You know, they were playing out like
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  Speaker 2: six seven nights a week and they would take any
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  Speaker 2: gig that would have them, and a lot of the
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  Speaker 2: clubs back then were not looking for cover bands. They
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  Speaker 2: were looking for people who could write original music. So
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  Speaker 2: they were hell bent on doing that. And I think
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  Speaker 2: some of the guys said, to me, when you're playing
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  Speaker 2: out six or seven nights a week, you're gonna get good.
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  Speaker 2: It might not be tomorrow. But if you keep doing it,
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  Speaker 2: and if your nose to the grind is so much
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  Speaker 2: that you as a group are going to do this,
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  Speaker 2: you could potentially get pretty good.
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  Speaker 1: And they did and sometimes play until five six in
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  Speaker 1: the morning.
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  Speaker 2: Five six in the morning, like a fascinating thing is
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  Speaker 2: you know, spin Doctors and Blues Traveler sharing bills often
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  Speaker 2: in those early days, and they would change sets, but
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  Speaker 2: they wouldn't stop. So Blues Traveler would are to slowly
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  Speaker 2: come on to the stage and pick up an instrument
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  Speaker 2: that one person from spind Doctors put down, and so
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  Speaker 2: over a course of several minutes or ten minutes or so,
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  Speaker 2: you would essentially have Blues Traveler taking over for spend
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Doctors or vice versa, without ever stopping playing. It sounds
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  Speaker 2: like it could be a mess, but I don't think
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  Speaker 2: it was, And imagine witnessing something like that. That's the
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  Speaker 2: determination to just let things take it where it needs
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  Speaker 2: to take.
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  Speaker 1: That's the essence of the jam band vibe, is that
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  Speaker 1: it could go horribly wrong or it could go really well.
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  Speaker 1: And when they click, there's something magical that happens.
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  Speaker 2: For sure, and that's what gets people, I think, coming
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  Speaker 2: back because you still to this day. It's one of
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: these places in the world where we are where you
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: can go and that's what you're going to see. The
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: unexpected did right. There's a lot of shows that a
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: lot of live music where obviously they have a setlist.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: They played the set list every night, maybe one deviation
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: here or there, but for the most part, it's going
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to be the same. And that's cool. But in this world,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: the unexpected and the novelty of doing something new, it's
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: rewarding for them and they know that their audience loves
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  Speaker 2: it too, and it's very rare. So when you find
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  Speaker 2: people that are into that, they feed off of each other.
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  Speaker 1: It's a risk to do what these jam bands are doing,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: but over time you developed that audience and grateful dead
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  Speaker 1: by allowing the tape sharing was that was a huge thing.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, tape sharing was monumental. And yeah, certainly they
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: started it, and all the acts in this book were
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: completely not only okay with it, they at sometimes used
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  Speaker 2: it to grow their fan base by seating it. They
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: would send it out to clubs to get gigs. Like
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: live tapes, right, they would send them out to fans
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  Speaker 2: that they knew who would then organically spread it because
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: they believed in it. They knew that this was a
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: method that could work for them, so they tried and did.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: It was very instrumental in getting their fan bases built up.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: When you have bands that have never been to Colorado
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: and they go to Colorado and everybody in the crowd
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: is singing along and they don't have a commercial release,
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  Speaker 2: something has happened. Multiple acts told me that this was
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: a thing that was happening, and they instantly saw the
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: value of it, and record labels were trying to shut
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: them down, and of course they weren't into it, and
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: they were adamant about that never happening.
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  Speaker 1: But what a way to promote check this out. Give listen, man,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: you have to see these guys live. That's free promotion.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Mark from the Disco Biscuits. He was talking
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: about how in tape trading, if the band puts it out,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: like if the band was like, buy my tape, buy
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: my tape, by my tape, it's marketing. But if random
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: fan says you've got to listen to this band, the
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Disco Biscuits, here's a tape, it's word of mouth that
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: cannot be beat and that's what it was. It was
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: word of mouth through a rudimentary Internet network that people
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: were just really passionate about. I mean, I can't tell
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  Speaker 2: you the amount of tapes that I dubbed for people
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: that I'd never met, that I would just post on
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: various message boards like I have. I just got in
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: X tape. You know, I can spend it for ten
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: people if you send me blanks, if you send me postage.
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  Speaker 2: And they did. And I did that for years and
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: years and years, mainly because I thought that what I
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: had needed to get out there, and this was a
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: super easy way to do that. It wasn't hard.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Archive dot org is the one that has a lot
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: of dead stuff.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Archive dot org it continues to have tons of stuff
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: from that era from all the bands in this book.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I certainly ransacked it during the writing and research for
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: this book because they have so much. John from the
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Disco Biscuits told me about a seminal show in their
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: history on Halloween ninety seven. Okay, great archive dot org
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: has that. I could listen to it right after we talked. Phenomenal.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I love the early John Popper story, the early pre
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: famous John Popper stories, him and Chris Baron from The
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Spin Doctors were friends going back to their school days.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: But there's another school friend who has a story that's
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: in the book that I love. One is from David
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's pronounced is Pressure. Blue Traveler tour manager. Yeah,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: his first day, he's a junior at Princeton High School,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the school assembly. He never heard John play before, and
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: he comes walking out on stage.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: The dude was super high and he was like, what
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: is this guy coming out with a lunchbox full of harmonicas?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: This is going to be.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: It's like a tied I colored lunch box and he
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: gives lumbering up.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: It's going to be horrendous. And Popper, you know, young
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Popper high school Popper, just floored him, blew him away
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: and motivated him immediately to go up to him and said,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: we need to do this. There's something here and we
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: need to dig deep to figure out what that is. Eventually,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the guys from Blue Traveler they all coalesced together and
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: there was but yeah, Dave was with them from the
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: beginning and was helping them from day one. In the
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: early days in New York, he moved with them and
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: was helping them with bookings and I was talking about
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: that playing out six seven nights a week, Like, you know,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: he was there and he was very i would say,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: business minded at the beginning, to make sure they had
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a steady stream of gigs. And we're getting things done,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: and they did book.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Done, rock podcast. We'll be back after this.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Hold on.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Talk about the hotspots at that time for shows. There's
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: a Spin Doctor song called Larby's Gang, and I love
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: the lyric stoop so fine on the summer's eve when
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: you sit outside for a short reprieve, talk to folks
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: as they come and leave. John Ojay and Crazy Steve
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite spin songs. That's referring to nightingales.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, referring to nightingales. I'm guessing I don't know
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: for sure. Crazy Steve might be Steve Wickner, who's the
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: photographer in the book. John oh is John O. Manson,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: who's also in the book. He's a little bit of
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: an older figure than the folks that were in the book,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: like he was kind of of a mentor. He'd been
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: in New York for a while, he'd been in bands
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and helped show people the ropes. But he was certainly
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: a part of the scene. But yeah. I mean there
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: was you know, very dirty clubs at the beginning that
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: were really wanting to sell beer all night and have
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: people play originals and blues. Traveler was willing to play
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Nightingales on like a Monday night, which was typically a
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: dead night, and so they could get a gig at
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: what is typically a dead night. But it pretty quickly
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: became not a dead night because they were crushing it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: They were blowing the roof off, so people kept coming back.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: They tapped into that ethos that you were talking about,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: where you don't necessarily repeat the set list, you don't
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: necessarily want to play the same thing over and over.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: I want to keep people on their toes. You want
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: to excite them through the music that you're playing them.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And I think they knew that. They were very cognizant
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: about making the experience something that people wanted to continue experiencing.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: There's a song called Nightingale by Gott Street Wine. I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: know it's about a person that care, but is that
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a reference to night and Gales?
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: You know. I didn't ask them specifically about that. I'm
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: sure they've been asked about that a bunch. I would
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: assume that it is a sly reference to a club
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: that gave them their first gig for sure, and was
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: certainly a home base early on for them with Blue
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Traveler and Spin Doctors.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Buy a beer, find a place to stand, have a
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: couple laughs, and hear the band smoke a couple of
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: your favorite brand. Wake up with a stamp on the
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: back of your hand. Yeah, that's cool. Chris Baron, I'm
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: a big fan. Even his solo work is. He's an
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: outstanding songwriter. I recommend people check out his solo work,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: especially nowadays you can access easily now Spotify all the places.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: But he yeah, he had a solo acoustic album I got.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: In fact, I've went to see Spins one time and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: after the show I brought his acoustic solo CD and
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you know, asked him to sign it and he was
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: like WHOA, Like he couldn't believe it. Well, so because
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: he got it was hard to find. You had to
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: get like CD, baby, you know that's cool.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: All the musicians in this book have continued to pursue
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: art and a creative life. Spin Doctors obviously got very
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: huge off of two songs, and that changed their trajectory
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: from this scene for sure. You know they were on
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: MTV NonStop, and you know, they went from the Hord
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Tour to the MTV's Alternative Nation Tour with Screaming Trees
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and Soul Asylum in about a year, so they had
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: a very different experience. But at the end of the day,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: they love music. They love that they impacted so many
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: people with two songs, but they continue to like creating
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: But Little Miss Can't Be Wrong and Two Princes. Yeah,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: like you say, two big hits, and Chris Baron talks
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: about when he's asked, do you get sick of playing
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: the hits? He's like, well, let me see, I'm playing
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: songs that get people on their feet, cheering and smiling. No,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty good with playing those songs every night. And
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Little Miss Can't Be Wrong. I love because that's a
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: revenge song that's about his stepmother, and he talked about
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: her to you for the book Nasty Woman Man his
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: brother kept a machete under the bed.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it didn't seem like a good vibe by
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: any means. I also like to how he was talking
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: about there was this kind of hippie vibe around the
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: spin doctors or whatever. But at the same time, grunge
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: was breaking right, and that was kind of like held
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: up as a genre or a music form at the
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: moment that was super dark and super heavy, and I'm
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: not saying it wasn't, but you know, he was very
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: emphatic of that. A lot of Spin stuff could be
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: dark as well. You know, it certainly had a pop
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: tinge to it, or you know, it is played in
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the gap or whatever, but that doesn't mean that it
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: didn't have dark elements to it. All these acts certainly flirted,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: if not straight up, wrote some pretty dark things at times,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: or very personal things. The Fish album Billy Breathes is
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: an album that I was referencing a few moments ago about,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know, making a really great studio record, and I
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: still to this day I think it's a really great record.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: But there's just some really personal moments on it that
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I don't think we had seen from the band at
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: that point. And you know, specifically, the song Billy Breathes
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: about Trey's daughter, about him experiencing his newborn just really incredible,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: gorgeous stuff, and it might get lost in the chalk
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: dust torture of the worlds the mango songs of the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: world that you enjoy myself of the fish world. That
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: was this more fantasy type stuff that they also were doing,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: But they were doing a lot of really personal stuff
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: too as the decade went on and just I think
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: wanted to push themselves forward.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: That was the frustration though with these bands, like Chris
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Baron's story about Epic Records being more into Pearl Jam
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: than the Spin Doctors in the beginning. But there were
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: two things that happened. There was a letter from a
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: program director at a radio station in New Hampshire or.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Vermont EQX and Vermont Vermont.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: But the other one was a tequila shot contest.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the story goes that the label was sitting on
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: their record. This program director, jimm Iguinn, wrote an emphatic
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: letter like you are sleeping on this. It got to
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the label. But also that there was I guess a
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: team building event or the team going out and one
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: of the people lower on the marketing team said, if
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I can drink you under the table, if I can
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: do more tequila shots to you vice president of marketing
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: or whatever, we will promote the Spin Doctor's record pocketfull
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: of Kryptonite. And she did it. She crushed some tequila
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: and those two things kind of I think, came together
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and made it. So they started putting a little oop
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: behind it and it.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Worked, it sure did.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they started seeing traction at Top forty radio, which
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: was something that they were not expecting at all, like
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: rock radio Shore, but Top forty not at all. And
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: then MTV's calling for videos and it kind of snowballed
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: from there. But it's not to say that pocketfull of
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Kryptonite came out and then a month later the Spin
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Doctors were everywhere. They weren't like, I don't know what
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: is in people's minds, but it came out. A bunch
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: of other records came out, and the Spin Doctors were
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: largely ignored for nine months. They didn't break. It wasn't
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: like this huge marketing scheme that made these massive hits
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: and they were just a part of this machine. They weren't.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: They quietly did their record and they liked it, and
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: then they were touring on it and the label wasn't
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: doing anything on it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were ready to wind it up or wind
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it down, I should say, and get ready to start
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: recording another album. Aaron Klemis talks about that, and they
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: were like, no, man, we still believe in this album,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and we're touring and these people are really responding well
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to this. I think we need to keep going with this.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: We got to give it another shot.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that goes back to Ethos around playing live.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: They were seeing people respond to the music. The label
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: was not, and you just don't hear many stories of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: a label putting things out and not wanting to support it,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: But there are those instances back then where it was
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: just like, we're seeing what sticks to the wall, We're
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: seeing what money we have today, and we'll give it
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: our best shot. And if these couple artists don't fit
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: into that plan, well they made a record and okay,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: that's it. But not just could have gone down that path.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: They could have you know, like the label could have said,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: you know what, we didn't put any money behind it,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: and we're not going to and deliver your next thing
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: and we're gone.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Were most jam bands at odds with the record labels.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I think they were at odds in that they knew
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: their audience and the labels were always trying to get
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: an audience that was not their audience. Right. They're trying
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to get on the radio, right, they're trying to have
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: these mass appeals, and they had these ways to do it,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: and some artists went with it in some ways, some didn't.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: A lot were emphatic that we're not going to do it.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: You know. I remember the story that Dave Schools was
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: telling me about Capricorn asking him to play the song
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: that they're pushing at radio every night, right so they
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: could connect in fans who heard that on the radio
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: could connect that to a live show. And they were like,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: why would we do that? That sounds so boring, Like
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: sounds boring for us, We wouldn't, like, no, we're not
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: doing that. And then you know, they had to stick
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: to their guns with that sort of mentality. But at
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, widespread panic six seven years
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: after that story that I'm telling as one hundred thousand
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: people show up in Athens, Georgia for a free concert
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: in ninety eight, and who else is doing that at
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: that time? No one.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Grateful Dead went through that though with Oxomoxoa when they
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: were recording that album and the label said what are
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: we going to do with this? And they basically said,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: do whatever you want with it. If you want to,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: let us go, let us go help. But we're not changing, right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I think for anybody to really stand up to what
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: you believe in when you're also very cognizant about things
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: at there's things at stake, right, and you don't know
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: how things are going to shake out. You know, you
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: don't know if that next gig is going to be
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: sold out. You just have to kind of believe that
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: it will be. And they believe that what you're doing
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: is creat and people are responding to that. But then,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: you know, it goes back to what we were talking
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: about earlier with the word of mouth around tapes and
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: like so that you know, they were cognizant too, that
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: word of mouth was powerful and that people were sharing
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: things and it didn't necessarily matter so much if they
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: had radio exposure or tower records moving tons of CD.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Now it's not to say that some bands didn't connect
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: with those means and have massive exposure Spend Doctors, Blues Traveler,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: for sure, but they had been doing it for a
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: long time at that point. None of this was an
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: overnight sensation. It was extreme work ethic. Whether you're like
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: the bands or not, you know, I remember conversations I
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: would have with people in the nineties that were, you know,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: and more indie rock or punk rock or whatever and
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: in like Jammuts. But they never knocked the work ethic.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: They knew what they were doing and could tell that
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: the amount of spirit that they were putting into this
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: and just work was incredible.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Podcasts will be back after this.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: But time has come for someone to put his foot down,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: and that foot is me.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about a quote in the book.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: It's actually the title of the chapter, chapter three. For
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars, we could make a record and you
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: could spend the money on Haberger's guns pot a van.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Where's that quote come from? Who's that quote come from?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: That comes from the an r that Blue Travelers label
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: A and M. Patrick Clifford, great dude. He was the
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: one that essentially brought Blues Traveler to A and M.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: And he's negotiating with essentially Bill Graham. You know, David
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Graham was Bill Graham's son. And Bill Graham is obviously
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the huge concert promoter from the sixties that you know,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: did the Dead and Jefferson Airplane and Fillmore and Almonds
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: and everything, and so he's essentially negotiating the deal with
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Bill and David to get them to essentially to make
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: a record. And and he's just being like, you can
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: spend the money on whatever. This is the money, just
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: you need to make a record. We're not going to
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: be keeping tabs on every little thing you spend money on.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Go do what you do that I saw, and let's
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: do this. The interesting thing is that they had several
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: records before four broke.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: I was just about to say that that first album,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the self titled Debut but Anyway, was being played on
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the local rock station here in New Aven, Connecticut back
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: in ninety one. Two. Maybe then it became a hit
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: after run Around, But yeah, three albums with debut, Travelers
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and Thieves and Save a.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Soul, Save a Soul, and then four came around, and
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I think great songs on it, but also a lot
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: of times with these things, stars have to align, and
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: they did at that time. And Hook caught the public's consciousness.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Run Around and Hook, those.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Of the two they went around caught the public's consciousness
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: and it took off from there. But like I was saying,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: like they had been doing it for a long time.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: You know, they had been opening up for the Allman
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Brothers and Jerry Garcia band for years, like they were
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: opening for I think Leonard Skinnard out in Europe. They
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: were doing everything possible to get their live show in
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: front of more people, but also continue with the core
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: fans and just kind of build it up those ways
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: through these live means.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Was David let him in a fan by that time,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: by the early nineties or did he come along after
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: because he gave them exposure, he was a huge fan.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I think he was pretty hip to these guys, like
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: early on. I mean remember like he was on Late Night,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: he was on like the twelve thirty slot, right, so
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: he wasn't on eleven thirty, so you had a lot
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: more freedom with what you were putting on. So I
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: don't know off the top of my head when they
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: played Letterman, but he certainly was. Him and Conan in
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: the nineties were really hip to these alternative bands, and
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: if you throw Jammi Ax into that, it certainly fit
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: the bill. Yeah, he was definitely a fan of Fish
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: in the nineties. He had this time slot that he
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: cultivated a rather weird personality and so he could get
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: away with that. But I don't think he really waned
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: when he moved to eleven thirty either, it's still stuck
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: by his vibe that he had created at that later timeslot.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: We're talking with. Mike Ayers is the author of Sharing
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the Groove, the untold story of the nineties jam band
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: explosion and the scene that followed. I would be remiss
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: now mentioning Bobby Shean, the late Bassis of Blues Traveler.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: He sadly died of an overdose in August of nineteen
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: ninety nine. Much loved, not just by his bandmates but
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: that whole scene. There seemed to be a lot of
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: respect for him. He was like the guy, like the
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: elder statesman.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: In a way he was. He was like a tried
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: and true deadhead. But the way that people just I
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: had been to me was very much like a like
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: a glue. He kept things together in ways that when
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: you know people can keep things together, it is just
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: like an indescribable thing, you know. And he was that
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: and wickedly talented as well. Everybody spoke about that glueness,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: that stickiness, and how talent he was. So Yeah, I
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: think it was like a moment in not only that
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: band's history but the culture's history, the scene's history of
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: him passing. Obviously there was some demons that he was
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: working out, and it certainly changed things. Brendon Hill says
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: some really amazing things at the end of the book
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: about that moment about the end of the nineties that
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I just adore. It just really puts in perspective how
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: intense that decade was for the musicians creating this music.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Brendan the drummer of Blues Traveler, great drummer. The jam
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: band scene had already had that act of having to
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: experience the passing of Jerry Garcia. That was August of
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: ninety five. That was a major musical turning point in
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: the mid nineties. Talk about that for the young bands
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: and the jam band culture.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of people
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: that would say the narrative is that the Dead died
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: and that's why Fish became big. I don't think that's
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: the case. Fish was already on a trajectory that was
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: selling out massive square gardening like filling amphitheaters, whether the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Dead were playing or not. You know, I was there,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you know, I was there in summer ninety five seeing
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: both bands just as amount of people at the Dead
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: were filling up fish shows right like. I was seeing
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: them in amphitheaters around the East Coast. And it's not
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: like it was deadheads that were there that were just
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: bored with the Dead. It was people that were funatical
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: about fish. It was happening like there was a movement happening.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: When Jerry passed, there was a lot of problems with
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: the Dead tour that summer. There's this inclination that there
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: was a lot of ced elements in their parking lot
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: and it just wasn't really going well. And then that
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: ced element moved over to the Fish lot because they
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: needed somewhere to go. Look, I don't know exactly if
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: that happened, but I do think that that did happen.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Tickets did start to get harder to get. But you know,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Fish played a festival the year after ninety six, their
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: own festival, the Clifford Ball and Upstate New York and Plattsburgh,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: New York, and seventy thousand people showed up. They played
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: a festival in the nineties in Florida, Big Cypress, tons
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: of people showed up. More than seventy thousand people showed up.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Massive that was going to happen. Whether the Dead were
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: playing or not, they were on this route where people
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: were connecting to them in their live show and their
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: lower the Lord that they had created so much so
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: it was one different Booked on.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Rock podcasts, will be back after this?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Love it?
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Can I go on?
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: All right? Sit down, I'll be right back.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Find the bookdown Rock website at booked on rock dot com.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: There you can find all the back episodes of the show,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the latest episode in video and audio, plus a video
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: highlight and link to our YouTube channel. Links to all
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: of the platforms where you can listen to the podcast,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: plus all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: and x Also check out the Booked on Rock blog.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: the Booked on Rock online store. Pick up some Booked
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: on Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: The Fish story is fascinating that it goes all the
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: way back to eighty four. This band had been around
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: a long time. What was the thing that Trey Anastasio
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: said about the Drinking Agent in eighteen eighty three being
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: crucial to their story.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was like the only place in
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: the country that still had a drinking age of eighteen. Okay,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: so anybody that went to college at University of Vermont
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: could go to a bar and see a band and
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: have a drink. So therefore he said that the opportunity
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: for bands to exist was tenfold from your normal place
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: because you had all of these bars wanting to bring
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: in eighteen or nineteen year olds and they needed something
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: for them to do. Watching a band, listening to a
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: band play was something that they could do. So they
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: had this opportunity to play and play and play and
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: play and play, and people would come and watch them
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: and essentially get connected to them. They you know, they
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: love them from the start. I don't know if you
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: could say if one was the age, things would be different.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: They're incredibly talented. They would have found a way to
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: play and people would have found a way to see them.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: But in those early days, certainly, just having a space
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: in a space to play, a club owner, a bar
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: owner being like, yes, we will pay you a little
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: money if you come play, it was a huge thing.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: It was a huge thing for a young act just
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: cutting their teeth and just wanting to be out. That's
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: the thing. Like all these acts, they just wanted to
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: be out and be better than they were the night before,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: and they just worked at it. So, yeah, that's Burlington.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: It had these spaces that wanted bands and so there
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: was a lot of different types of bands up there
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: that were playing. So whatever music style you liked, you
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: could go and see originals, covers, all the stuff.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Similar with Dave Matthew's band, their story starts in Charlottesville, Virginia.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: You said that they did something revolutionary right out of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: the gate musically. Talk about that in their rise to prominence.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: They essentially were They came together organically in Charlottesville, which
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: was not necessarily known as a music mecca, just really
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: started playing out around town. But also like widespread panic,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: like a lot of these acts got on the road
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: pretty quickly. They're interesting because they had a saxophone, they
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: had a violin. You know, Dave's voice is not your
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: typical voice on radio at the time. It was different.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: The way he would sing, the way he would phrase
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: notes was unique. And we've been talking about how this
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: scene values uniqueness. I was at school in Virginia Virginia
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Tech in nineteen ninety four and his Remember two Things
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: had just come out. The record stores there could not
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: stock that. That was a word of mouth record.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: That was the pre major label.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: That was pre pre major label. It had the three
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: D art on the front that was super popular back then.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: That was the record cover. So it's super distinct in
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: that realm. And most of the tracks on that were
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: live if I'm remembering correctly, or it could be the
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: flip side. Regardless, it was a mix of studio and
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: live tracks, which was also just different. And everybody could
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: not stop talking about Dave Matthews at Virginia Tech in
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four, but mainly because he was essentially a
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: hometown hero. He had played fraternities at Virginia Tech in
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: the early nineties. He was just very adamant about going
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: around the state to cities and just bringing their thing.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: As marching tripping Billies satellites on there. Those are the
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: ones that ended up on Under the Table and Dreaming.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he you know, he he embodied the same
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: path and live ethos that everyone else did and would
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: open for these acts in places that he had never
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: been before. Again, it's just crazy hustle, not playing live.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: It's not like they're sitting around. It's constant practice.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: You mentioned Widespread Panic. Let's talk about their origin story,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: because here's another interesting one. They come from an area
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: where Rim was big. The B fifty two's.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah Panic came from a very artsy alternative Athens. They
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: were listening to that, but also classic rock and again
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: kind of like the Nightingales in New York. They got
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: some early gigs at some early clubs that didn't have
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: people playing on Monday nights, and they were raising their
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: hand and saying we will play. But they didn't fit
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the artsy mold. You know. Dave's Schools said we were
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: the alternative to the alternatives, which is a great line
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: about where they essentially fit in in terms of Athens.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: They were jammy, but you know, they didn't really listen
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: to the Dead. Mike Hawser I don't believe knew about
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: the Dead really until he got into the band. They
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: just had a love of I think classic rock, Southern rock,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: and wanted to play out and they found places that
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: wanted live music. They you know, one of the things
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: that I thought was very interesting about the conversations I
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: had was all these acts were pretty smart early on
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: and tapping fraternities. Fraternities wanted live music to play their parties.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: They also had very big budgets, so they would get
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: really big paychecks that would not necessarily be a paycheck
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: like they would see at a club on a Monday
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: night where they would split the door or get ten
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: percent of beer sales or whatever they worked out. But
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: frats would have parties and essentially hire them, and they
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: would work that.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: All these acts would work that Arim did the same thing.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah, they were a huge college band.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: But you know, like whyspread Panic is not like wispread
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Panic was going to be played on college radio. Rim
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: certainly was.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Widespread Panic never had a hit single too. That's
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of these bands that didn't have a hit
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: single developed a huge following despite that.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Why Spread Panic a little trivia here had a mini
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: hits single called Hope in a Hopeless World in Germany. Wow, Yeah,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: around like ninety eight, So when they did a tour
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: over there, I think they were encouraged to play Hope
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: in a Hopeless World more often than not. So I
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: have not looked at the setlist recently, but if for
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: some reason someone was to say, you know what, they
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: played that a little more than usual over there, I
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: would be like, this might be why that's funny.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Well, the Horde Festival. That was a big deal in
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: terms of these bands playing live, huge in the nineties.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Horizons of rock developing everywhere goes all the way back
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: to ninety two. Now, this was a way to avoid
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: playing clubs and get outdoors. This was John Popper's idea.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a Popper and his manager, Dave Fry.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: They wanted to go out in the summer. They were
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: seeing like Bill Graham did Lallapaluza. They were seeing what
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: was happening with Lallapaluza and thought that they could replicate
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: that if they combined several bands from the scene that
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: had two or three thousand per market, you know, showing
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: up to their shows, maybe five hundred showing up to
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: their shows, and if they combined them they could maybe
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: fill up ten twelve thousand, thirteen thousand. It's great logic
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: and it worked. Now, I mean they only played eight
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: shows that first Ward tour. It wasn't huge, but it
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: was seminal in that it put them on the map
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: for promoters to say, oh, ten thousand people are showing
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: up with this amphitheater to watch bands that aren't on
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: the radio. And maybe there's some Tide Eyes and Hacky
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Sacks in the parking lot. Okay, this might be interesting.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: It was seminal. I think in that way that not
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: only did it do that, but it gave everybody experience.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: It's playing in a larger place. To make that next step?
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Can we make this next step? Will our sounds, will
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: our vibe translate to ten thousand who we aren't seeing
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: right up in front of us? You know there is distance.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: There's a lawn is they're going to translate.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Booked on Rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Im out come out wherever you are.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, thanks so much for checking out the Booked
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: on Rock podcast. If you've just found the podcast, welcome.
• 45:36
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• 45:39
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• 45:41
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• 45:44
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• 45:47
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• 45:50
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• 45:58
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• 46:00
  Speaker 1: from episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: it at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: back to the show. What about those bands that didn't
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: have the huge single? They deserve a lot of attention,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: gott Street. Why we talked about disco Biscuits you mentioned
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Moe is another great one, Government Mule, Strange, Folk, String
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Cheese incident. Is there a band that stands out for
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you of the lesser known mainstream bands from that era?
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: They're all fantastic. I think I remember back then though,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: thinking that when I heard Moe's No Doy album, their
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: first major baywelbum, I thought they were gonna get huge.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Really I did. Yeah, it was a great record. I
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: thought that if the people that liked Jammie music but
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: also liked Primus liked a lot of different music and
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: could get past any preconceived notions of what their audience
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: may be, that they would like it. It didn't hit
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: like I thought it would, but I still love that record.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be massive. You know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: String Cheese deliberately didn't sign a record deal. They had
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of opportunities and turned it down and went independent.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: They I think knew that they never were going to
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: do crazy record sales that our record label wants. And
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: I think they had seen MO. I think they'd seen
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: what happened with Sony and Mo and knew that that
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: could very well happen to them. So why don't we
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: just retain control. You see a lot of artists these
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: days talk about the control that they have retained, and
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: back then with a band like String Cheese incident, that
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: was super weird and risky to be like, No, we're
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: just going to do it on our own. We're going
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: to do ticketing on our own. Who are you, Oh,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you know we're filling up one thousand person theaters, two
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: thousand person theaters. We'll just keep it to ourselves. That's fine.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: If we grow bigger, great, If we don't, this is
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: pretty good. But at least we have control of our destiny.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: That sounds super cheesy, but that's what it is.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Moe's with Sony in the nineties for a three album
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: deal was the Fat Boy Wrecords, their own label.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Fat Boys, their own label.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: That was before and after Sony they went back to
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: releasing them under the Fat Boy label.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: And they didn't need to. They had seen how their
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: independent CDs were selling in CD stores when their major
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: label record was right next to it. So not only
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: did they have all the contacts for that distribution from
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: that time, they also had the data that showed, oh,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: our indie releases are doing pretty well with like no marketing.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: People know who we are and they're buying these things.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, I didn't get into it with
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: them on whether or not they wanted to pursue another
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: label after Sony. My guess is they didn't. But it's
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: been fine. I mean, like in two thousand and six
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: they were playing two nights at Radio City Music Hall.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: They're still out there, huge following. That's really the bottom
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: line with these bands, whether or not they were gonna
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: have hate or not. The spin Doctor story is just
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: crazy though to me, because that second album, Turn It
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: upside Down. I love that album, and they did have
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: a song that almost made the top forty you Let
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: your Heart Go Too Fast. Then things just fell apart,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: you know, the guitarist was out and then just just
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: things never really got back on track for them, and
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: they've made many albums since then, and some of them
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: are really really good. I don't understand why things went
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: south so quickly. The story is that they led with
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Cleopatrice Kat as the lead single on that second album,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and that's the reason that may maybe they should have
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: gone with you let Your Heart Go Too Fast as
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: the first one. I don't know. Times were changing anyway,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: so that's the fickle business.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: I think there was tension at the label in terms
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: of what the label wanted, their expectations. You know, it's
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: wild that they thought, you know, in today's terms, it's
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: wild to think that a record that sells two million
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: albums as a bomb.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because that we have to
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: keep that in mind. It wasn't because the first one
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: sold like fifteen million or whatever that helse.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was. It was astronomical, but like
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: that's the second one still did pretty pretty well, and
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: to me, it just kind of shows that it was
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: such a oh what did you do for me today? Right? Oh,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: you didn't sell ten million, okay, but you only sell
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: two million. Yeah, I guess we have to keep going.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: But maybe you're over versus like like nurturing and continuing
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: to work with an artist. I don't personally know if
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: that is what happened, but that would be that would
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: be my guess that the labels were very much into
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: moving on to the flavor of the moment versus the
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: artists cultivating fan bases. And now you see it all
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: the time where you hear about artists and their fan
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: bases and how engaged they are and how much they
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: care about that. Artists that you might not have heard
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: about in the nineties that would do that. And that's
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: a great thing because fans of all music now are
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: feeling way more connected. It's amazing. But back then, I
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: think the labels just wanted to find that next ten
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: million record and oh you did two million. Okay, I
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: guess you're not going to do that.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: What about some of the new younger acts that are
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: carrying the torch led by these nineties jam bands that
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: are out there now?
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you listened to Goose?
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: No, I'm going to listen to them Goose.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Have you listened to.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Billy Strings, Yes, not a lot.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: They're tearing it up playing arenas. There's a band from
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Connecticut called Eggy Fantastic.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Right from where I am here, in Connecticut.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Asberry Park, Dogs in a Pile, great Upstate New York.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Mikaela Davis, fantastic. There's a lot of acts on the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: scene that are, I guess, carrying on that vibe of
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: the nineties but doing things in their own way. It's
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: just fantastic. It's a great time for music right now.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: What should the nineties jam band scene? What should the
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: legacy be? How is it influence acts today and music festivals?
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: Now you have an artist like Goose, who is you know,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: they're not a label. Their vinyl sells out immediately, their
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: fandom is crazy about their vinyl. Their live shows are stellar.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: They're about to play Massasburg Garden in a few days
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: and they've sold that out. But they've come at it
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: with a way to sustain their career where they don't
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: need a label, they don't need OUDIPI streams, but they
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: have essentially different tiers of how you can see them live,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: you know, so pay more, you get different experiences and
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: because of that they're able to sustain a career and grow.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: And I think there's lineage from the nineties. At the
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: end of the day, it's listening and watching bands doing
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: what they want to do because they believe in it
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: and the audience is connecting.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: That's it, and those bands prove that can be done,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: and you can continue on sure, regardless of what happens
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: in the corporate world and record labels and all that
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: other stuff. You've got a fan base. They're gonna be
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: there with you. The band Goose also from Connecticut, from Connecticut, Wilton, Connecticut.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: That's very cool, man, that's awesome sharing the groove, the
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: untold story of the nineties jam band explosion and the
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: scene that followed. It's out now. You can find it
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: wherever books are sold. Look forward at your nearest bookstore.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: You can go to books on rock dot to find
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: your nearest independent bookstore. Where can people find you online?
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Mike Mike dash aares dot com and the Instagram is
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: at the Mike Hares That's where I'm at.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Cool Michael was great talking to you. I'm a huge fan,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: as you can tell, of this era. So great to
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: have this book out. It's a must read for all
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: the fans of the jam band scene, from the ninety scene,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: dead fans, fish fans, whatever. You gotta go out and
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: get this book.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks Eric, I really appreciate it, that's it. It's in
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: the books,