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When Wealth Meets Worship · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Music.
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  To flavor, to be pleased or gratified by, enjoy.
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  We are hoping that what we bring to your table today might add some spice to your life.
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  Roland, how are you doing? Doing well. How about yourself, Don?
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  Doing all right. Yeah. It's that busy time of year, you know?
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  We're not quite spring, but it's not winter anymore.
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  Both of us have been very busy lately. You've been winning games.
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  Yeah. It's good. It's good. It's good.
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  Keep them running. Keep them running.
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  Well, do you have any questions today? I have several. Do you think I'm ready?
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  I'll try to be ready for these questions. All right. Yeah.
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  All right. We'll start it off. First one, does strictly being rich keep you
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  from heaven? And what is considered rich?
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  Yeah. Well, yeah, riches serve a relative thing, isn't it?
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  And you always hope that you have some rich relatives. That always helps too.
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  But, you know, when the rich young man comes up to Jesus and he talks about,
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  you know, having done everything right, you know, up to that point.
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  And then Jesus says, okay, well, now take all your wealth and give it to the poor.
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  And he makes that a point of saying, you know, it's harder for a rich person
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  to get into the kingdom. him.
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  That being said, he talks about it's easier for the camel to get through the
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  eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.
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  There's so many different stories out there about, you know,
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  maybe it's needle gate, you know, and the camel could get down on its knees
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  and it could actually get through the needle gate.
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  So that sort of waters it down. I think the bottom line is, where does that wealth go?
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  Control you or maybe control your walk with God.
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  In other words, I know some wealthy people who in a sense have surrendered all their wealth.
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  They do live off of part of it.
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  But if there's a need comes up, boy, they're the first ones to give to it.
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  If there's a ministry that needs a boost, they give towards it.
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  It would be hard for me to say that they won't be in the kingdom of heaven because
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  they're so kingdom-minded.
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  And even though God has blessed them tremendously.
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  They might be actually, what's interesting is, they might be less focused on
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  their wealth than I am focused on getting by the next paycheck to paycheck.
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  I mean, because they don't have that worry.
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  So, I think it has more to do with the focus of the kingdom.
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  If you're focusing on your wealth and not on the kingdom of God,
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  then likely that's going to be your undoing.
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  But if you're focusing your wealth on the kingdom of God, that sounds like what
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  Jesus was talking about. Give to the poor.
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  It might be wealth in your bank account, but you're holding it lightly for the kingdom. Yeah.
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  So I don't think it's going to exclude just because you've got X amount of dollar
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  figures in your bank account. I don't think it's going to exclude you from the kingdom.
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  It's your attitude towards it. Yeah, I like that.
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  That was sort of a short answer. Yeah. That can kind of slide us into the next
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  question, though, because money can often be an idol for many people.
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  So, like, at what point does your love for something or want for something,
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  like, what point does that become idolatry?
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  Well, what does an idol do in our life? Basically, an idol is that which takes
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  our attention or dominates our thought stream.
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  Idols in Israel were taking the place of God, and that's where things went downhill.
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  So anything that takes the place of God in our mind and our devotion could become an idol.
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  Facebook, the amount of time we scroll. If we're scrolling longer than our devotions,
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  then likely it's already sort of taken its spot in our life.
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  And what's interesting is now there's
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  some apps coming out that you could actually scroll your devotions.
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  New stuff, you know, always something. But if it focuses us on God,
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  that's good. If it takes away from God, that's bad.
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  And just about anything can be an idol.
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  Even our own appearance can become an idol. And we spend more time on that,
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  doing our dippity-doo in the bathroom than our devotions.
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  Or anything that takes our attention off God—.
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  I just think of what he said in Matthew 6, and don't store up for yourself treasures on earth.
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  This is Matthew 6, verse 19 and following, where moth and rust destroy and where
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  thieves break in and steal.
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  But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not
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  destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure
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  is, there your heart will be also.
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  To me, that's that idolatry piece.
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  Because I have, frankly, given financial situations in the world,
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  people my age are getting scared about retirement and, you know,
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  is there going to be enough?
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  Are we going to be able to get through retirement until the Lord calls us home?
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  And so this can apply anywhere to us.
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  But if it takes the place of God in our life, it can be an idol.
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  And that's what Israel fell for because they were worshiping false idols.
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  Yeah, it's pretty simple. It really is pretty simple, yeah. But it's something
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  we have to take into consideration.
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  No one can serve two masters. He will either hate the one or love the other,
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  or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.
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  You cannot serve both God and money versus 24 of that same passage.
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  So yeah, I'd almost flip it. Can I?
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  Sure. So, you know, it is real, real easy to float a negative, right?
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  Well, you can't do that because that's bad stuff. And usually I can say,
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  well, that's bad stuff you're doing because it's good stuff I'm doing.
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  You could, you could flip it and say, okay, okay, If you're good,
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  these podcasts, or you're good at doing something with new technology,
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  and you're able to do it for the kingdom of God, go for it. Go for it.
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  Because we're struggling in the church,
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  both in our individual churches and even I see denominations struggling with
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  putting out a good message across electronic media,
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  whether it's through Facebook or message boards or whatever it is to put out
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  good stuff across media.
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  And so, hey, turn that towards God.
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  I mean, if you really have a hard time not scrolling on your phone and you are
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  actually good at what you do in media, go for it.
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  Yeah. Yeah. I watched one of our mutual friends put out some social media here lately.
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  Yeah. And I was amazed at how good it was.
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  A high school student. Really? And it was putting out good social media.
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  And I thought, boy, now, can we turn that towards the kingdom?
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  Yeah. You know who I'm talking about? I don't. We'll talk about between episodes. Yeah.
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  I got an idea, but. Yeah, you do. Yeah. Not 100% sure. Yeah.
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  But I mean, he just had the kids take a camera and walk through their day.
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  And it was actually an advertisement for the institution, the school,
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  but they'd walk around with the camcorder all day and go through their activities. And it was cool.
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  Yeah. It was cool. And that's this idea. I mean, he's got ideas.
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  Why not use it for the kingdom? Because he's good at it. And he can be used.
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  Yeah, exactly. All right.
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  When is violence okay, if ever?
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  We come from an Anabaptist peace, non-resistance tradition.
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  So is violence is... I figured we'd get to this one one of these times.
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  Well, yeah. So we go to Romans 14, 13, and we see that not spies authorities,
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  You're supposed to live under their, yeah.
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  Do we let them take care of all the trouble? Well, that's one way to think about it.
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  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority
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  except that which God has established.
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  Authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently,
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  he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted.
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  And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
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  And so, yeah.
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  Now, does that say whether we're going to do it ourselves? Is that us defending ourselves?
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  I don't know. You go just before that passage, it says, do not repay anyone evil for evil.
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  Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
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  If it's possible, as far as it depends on you, that's an important piece.
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  Live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends,
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  but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written, It is mine to avenge.
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  I will repay, says the Lord.
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  On the contrary, this is where it really gets spicy.
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  If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
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  In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.
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  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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  So you go back to your original question, which was, if I remember correctly,
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  is it ever right for us to take a life?
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  Was that it? Or defense?
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  Violence. Violence. Whooping people. Yeah.
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  I don't see it there.
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  For me, it would not be an option from what I see in scripture.
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  Now, does that mean we don't have anybody that should be able to do that,
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  I'm not quite as convinced as I once was.
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  I do know that for me, and I go back to the Sermon on the Mount,
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  and it says, you've heard it said, love your neighbor.
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  That's Matthew chapter 5, verses 43 following.
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  Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and
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  pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.
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  He causes his Son to rise on evil and good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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  If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
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  Are not even tax collectors doing that?
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  If you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?
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  Don't even pagans do that. Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father's perfect.
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  It seems to me that God is painting an example that His people will be perfect,
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  How would you, how can I describe it? Loving into the community around them
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  into such a way that violence against most anybody is going to be difficult.
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  So we won't be outwardly doing violence.
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  Now, to me then, how does it say how closely we defend ourselves?
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  And do we create a parameter that, hey, dude, you're not going to come across this part of my space.
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  That to me is a more indicative question for the Christian.
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  For a Christian to go out and do violence against his neighbor,
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  I don't see anything saying that's okay in Scripture.
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  Now, is it all right to defend yourself at a certain point? To me,
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  that's a more difficult, pertinent question.
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  Because at what point do you allow just anybody to violate your space?
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  And I think we've got to be a little careful of that. I still like the little
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  stories about the little old ladies who, when she was bashed in the door,
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  the intruder bashed in the front door, and she's inside the house.
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  I don't know whether the intruder didn't know she was in the house. That could be too.
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  And as soon as she saw the intruder, she prayed and she prayed and she prayed in the name of Jesus.
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  And she bound every evil. And all of a sudden, this guy was in tears.
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  And she brought him to the Lord.
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  I wish, yeah, documenting that, that was wild. But it was a lady down in the South.
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  I'd love to be that lady. I mean, to me, that's the way we approach this kind of thing.
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  Because in Ephesians 6, I think it says very, very well, verses 10 and following,
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  that our struggle is not against flesh and blood.
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  And when we talk about retribution or violence against others,
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  or even defending ourselves against the violence that comes our direction,
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  it's putting in a fleshly.
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  Playing the violence, the conflict. And our conflict as Christians really is
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  not in the flesh environment.
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  Our conflict is against principalities and powers that are controlled by Satan.
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  It's a spiritual battle. And so even the aggressor, we need to somehow be able
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  to see in the same light Jesus does,
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  that there's a need there that we somehow are going to have to respond to as
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  Christians, reflecting how Christ would have.
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  I mean, I think when Jesus got up, got off the boat at Gennesaret,
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  all of a sudden he was met with this guy who had these legion of demons.
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  And the battle's on right away. I mean, it just goes right to it.
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  And all of a sudden, the guy who had the legion of demons says, oh, no, what did you do?
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  You came over here after us. Almost as if Jesus is the aggressor.
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  And all Jesus did was show up on the shore and he...
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  Took legion and told him, be quiet. And then the legion of the demons decided
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  that they didn't want to be just pushed out.
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  They wanted to go over to the pigs. And of course, the pigs went over the cliff.
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  And you know the rest of that story.
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  And fear embraced the whole community because this Jesus had impacted their environment.
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  So, always made me wonder in that story, What else did the people feel that
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  made them so uncomfortable with Jesus?
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  Because here he had restored the health of this man who was running naked among
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  the tombs, who was cutting his skin, couldn't put any clothes on because he was just such a wild man.
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  And so that kind of mental behavior, they had to be uncomfortable with.
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  I would be uncomfortable with it.
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  And so given that, why were they so scared of Jesus unless they understood that
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  he was bringing on a full force spiritual assault against the demonic?
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  And I don't think we as Christians often think of that battle that way.
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  So when you're talking about violence, I go back and say, I'm not so much worried
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  that we as Christians would go out in violence.
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  Yeah. But I think the question, the crucial piece of the question is,
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  at what point do we defend ourselves?
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  And I think that's a much more ambiguous point.
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  Because even as they went to Gethsemane, Jesus said, well, okay,
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  how many of you guys have swords? You know, should we go buy some maybe, you know?
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  No, no, no, no. And they really only produce two out of the whole bunch.
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  And Jesus says, that's enough.
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  So obviously he's bringing up the question.
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  With a another agenda in mind
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  and maybe we do too need to
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  bring up that spiritual agenda when we bring it up i thought also what was interesting
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  was that the first reference you made when i asked the question is it in romans
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  or something how the all government was romans 13 yes by god.
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  And how if we would want to revolt against an unjust government or when anabaptism
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  was first become a thing and they were all getting martyred. They were.
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  By government. Yeah, by government. How he would kind of let,
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  like if it's his government, why would he let him do that, you know? Right.
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  Which is... Okay, so then that makes it feel like anytime we would be disciplined
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  by government, if you will, like the Anabaptists were in 1525,
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  does that mean we're wrong and the government's right?
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  Because governments will get ordained by God? You see, that brings up a lot
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  of different, we've been reading, Charlene and I have been reading through the
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  book of Jeremiah, which I wouldn't, don't ever start there.
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  But what's interesting is to see God at work.
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  Disciplining government by other governments. So that even the governments that
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  overtook Israel and Judah and took them into captivity because they needed to be disciplined,
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  would they themselves be disciplined by God, by other governments?
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  So as Babylon came out and Assyria came out and Babylon came out and disciplined Israel and Judah,
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  then it was the Greeks that would take over the Babylonians and then the Romans
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  would take over the Greeks.
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  Yeah. And it would serve them. Just fall to another nation.
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  Correct. And it would actually be the Roman government then that would make
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  the system, specifically the roads and communication, that would get the gospel
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  out to the edges of the world at that time. Edges of the known world.
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  So the enemy of the gospel, Rome, who would take Paul's life and Peter's life
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  and many of the apostles, would actually be the means by which the message of
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  the gospel got out to the rest of the world.
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  They had the communication. They had the roads. Could go wherever.
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  So, then you get to the 1525 and think about our ancestors.
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  Would we take believers baptism
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  nearly as serious if we
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  did not realize it was the blood of our ancestors that paved the path to better
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  understand how scripture talked about it because it basically believers baptism
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  is based on scripture yeah and the understanding had been lost in the years
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  of church and state being combined,
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  but as church and state were separated by the Anabaptists saying you know this
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  is two different things we're working here and,
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  then the infant roles were not necessarily as important anymore.
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  But lives were lost. People gave their life for what they believed.
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  And that's been a central theme all the way from Acts on. So it goes back to your first question.
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  What do we really hold dear to us? I mean, what are we going to hold our attention?
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  What do we have as an idol? Ourselves?
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  Yeah, I'm not too hept about. burning at the stake. That's not something I'm looking forward to.
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  Although after this podcast, we may end up that way.
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  The thing is, I would rather stand for Christ as I read it in the Bible than
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  to bend a knee towards an earthly force that would tell me I can't believe that way. Yeah.
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  That's where the rubber hits the road.
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  What do you think? I think it's a good way to end the episode.
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  Okay, we're done with this one.
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  Thank you, Rowan. And it's good to see all you folks and hope things are going well for you.
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  And we're hoping that this adds just a little bit of spice to your day this week.
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  And you can wait for us for next week and relish the thought again.
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  Yeah. Hope you guys learned something. We'll see you next time.
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  Lord willing. Thank you for joining us for this podcast.
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  Feel free to become part of this ministry by sharing it with others.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and is calling to us in our daily lives Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.