Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #203: Cliff Rovelto-Kansas State University

Transcript

#203: Cliff Rovelto-Kansas State University · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

• 0:10
  Track and field coach, the ones that point
• 0:24
  people most every season. He's the voice of reason.
• 0:27
  Speaking, the growth gotta prep for you carry the load.
• 0:30
  Talk to the stove. For those of us, stay on the go
• 0:33
  pop, the handle, staying in the zone.
• 0:34
  What you packing for the role is more than one way to go taking
• 0:38
  those tests. And you told it ain't practice
• 0:40
  it before it became clear. You can't happen to you.
• 0:42
  Listen with both ears, can't Mentor, without a mentor, kids
• 0:46
  of experience, you can reinvent those kids.
• 0:48
  Every plans got to stand and deliver in the price sacrifice,
• 0:52
  can you give up Hugh its choice and to fight not to win or lose?
• 0:56
  It's not a boy, but if I see, y'all can make more movies, not
• 0:59
  about how to All about why you don't know what you're you know
• 1:02
  who you are inside. Six, many ways to die.
• 1:05
  She's not absorb. Your faults Finish Line.
• 1:07
  The work ain't done. So we learn from the experts to.
• 1:10
  Y'all got to put in the legwork Gil athletic shoes Network.
• 1:13
  It's all about Connections put together for the profession to
• 1:16
  every track coach could be blessed.
• 1:32
  Alright, welcome back here to The Gila.
• 1:34
  That it's connections. Podcast, episode number 203,
• 1:37
  this is a quite a joy for me. Anytime we have a coach here on
• 1:42
  the podcast, it's just fascinating to me.
• 1:44
  I just love learning their Journey.
• 1:46
  Their reasons for getting into coaching and it's always maybe
• 1:49
  just a little bit more special when I have an actual personal
• 1:52
  connection with the guests. And that's what we have today.
• 1:55
  This is actually one of my mentors when I coached someone
• 1:58
  that I looked up to. He was a combined events coach
• 2:02
  teacher. For me and level 2.
• 2:04
  And I just learned so much about how to coach and not just the
• 2:07
  X's and O's but how to be a coach, how to think about being
• 2:10
  a coach. So I'm super excited to bring
• 2:12
  you. Today's guest help me.
• 2:13
  Welcome from the comes to the University of Kansas State.
• 2:16
  That's terrible, Kansas State University.
• 2:18
  The head coach of the Wildcats, their help me.
• 2:21
  Welcome the wives, the wonderful mr.
• 2:22
  Cliff Ravel toe, Cliff. How are you sir?
• 2:24
  Great Mike, thanks for having me.
• 2:26
  Well, thank you. I know how busy you are.
• 2:29
  And one of the topics we'll probably get into is, you know,
• 2:32
  You're a track coach, not a jumps coach, or Sprint's coach.
• 2:35
  The you are always busy with practice.
• 2:37
  I'm just so thankful that you are able to carve out some time
• 2:40
  for us today. You bet it's my pleasure awesome
• 2:43
  man. So Cliff, you know, I love you
• 2:46
  to death, you know, something I can easily publicly say you were
• 2:50
  someone who, when I was coaching, not only did I look up
• 2:53
  to because of the success you had but also because of your I'm
• 2:56
  going to call it your steadiness.
• 2:57
  Like you're just, it feels like you don't get too high and you
• 3:00
  don't get too low and whether you're talking Owing to a
• 3:02
  discus, throw or a pole vaulter 100 meters printer.
• 3:05
  It's always about. Well, what's what do we need to
• 3:07
  take care of and achieve the success that we can today?
• 3:11
  So I've always looked up to, you really got to know you during
• 3:14
  that combined events at down in Mississippi State when you're
• 3:17
  teaching me there and just have just have enjoyed all of our
• 3:19
  conversation. So this is a real thrill to kind
• 3:22
  of dig deep into how you got into coaching and your path
• 3:24
  along the way. Well, thanks I enjoy visiting
• 3:28
  about our profession. I think think highly of it.
• 3:31
  I think highly of the people. Ra part of our Sport.
• 3:33
  And so I love to share the time with you, amen?
• 3:36
  That's exactly. That's why we started uplifting
• 3:38
  honor, the coaches from all levels here around the world,
• 3:42
  really? But obviously, we focus here
• 3:43
  domestically so excited to jump into the sea.
• 3:46
  There was a good pun actually excited to jump into it here.
• 3:50
  No more puns. I promise.
• 3:51
  So Cliff, you know, assuming that you are an athlete and you
• 3:55
  tell us somewhere coaching had to change for you like a, maybe
• 3:59
  like a light switch, had to change that, it went from
• 4:02
  something. That was done to you.
• 4:03
  You know, go run this, go jump that go lift this to something,
• 4:07
  we're in your head. You had to have changed and say,
• 4:09
  well, wait a minute, like I could actually be like, maybe
• 4:12
  that could be my career one day. Where does coaching begin for
• 4:16
  you as a profession? Well, my my entry into track and
• 4:23
  field is quite a bit different probably than what most were.
• 4:29
  I actually never competed in track and field.
• 4:32
  At any level ever ever ever. I I did pretty much every team
• 4:42
  sport there was and I started Golf when I was probably around
• 4:49
  12 years old or something like that and and I was just a very
• 4:54
  average, you know, High School athlete probably the best.
• 4:59
  The only thing I really ever got to be decent at was golf.
• 5:02
  I One point had to play do about a to handicap.
• 5:05
  Wow. But in other sports I was just,
• 5:08
  you know, just an average guy and he said I never competed in
• 5:14
  in track and field. I did run cross-country a couple
• 5:19
  of years after I had to stop playing football in high school
• 5:24
  in the basketball coach. I was at, I actually went to
• 5:28
  five different schools from ninth grade on.
• 5:31
  Wow, that was a Terry brat and my dad served two tours of
• 5:35
  Vietnam during that time frame and we just kept moving.
• 5:39
  And so you know, obviously that's kind of a disadvantage in
• 5:44
  the team sports and and but again, I was, I was just an
• 5:49
  average athlete. So I don't feel badly about that
• 5:53
  at all. It was what it was.
• 5:54
  It was a great experience, but, but anyway, when I stopped
• 5:59
  playing football, I always loved basketball.
• 6:01
  It's still probably It today, my favorite sport and basketball.
• 6:06
  Coaches wanted me involved in something.
• 6:09
  And they said, you know, go out and train with the cross-country
• 6:11
  team and I ended up just running just well enough to make the
• 6:15
  varsity, and so I. So I did run a couple of years
• 6:19
  of cross country in high school, but never competed in track and
• 6:23
  field. And so, when I would school is
• 6:28
  an undergrad at University of Kansas and Education major with
• 6:35
  histories government kind of minor always intended to go to
• 6:40
  law school. To be honest, I did a practicum
• 6:47
  and coaching. Well even before that I started
• 6:50
  when coach Timmons was the head coach at the University of
• 6:52
  Kansas, I was a worked as a part of the student relays
• 6:58
  organizational committee if you will.
• 7:00
  And so back then you know, you had to do.
• 7:02
  Ooh, all the flights and heats by time and you know, it was a
• 7:06
  huge or excuse me, not by Time by hand and you know it was a
• 7:11
  two-week process to put on that track meet for for for us for
• 7:17
  Coach Timmons. It was a year-round Endeavor but
• 7:20
  but for us it was 23 weeks of every day.
• 7:24
  All night, you know, getting prepared for that meat anyway
• 7:27
  served on that relays committee. So that was really my first
• 7:30
  exposure to track him. Field I fell in love with Coach
• 7:35
  Timmons. He's just such a wonderful human
• 7:38
  being and wonderful coach and and really enjoyed, you know,
• 7:42
  working with that committee and then got to know some of the
• 7:47
  other coaches coach Pepin, you know, was an assistant coach at
• 7:50
  Kansas at that time and stand the ruski.
• 7:54
  And, you know, they're just a lot of great guys in the sport.
• 7:59
  And so that was my first exposure.
• 8:03
  And then I did a when it came time to do a practicum in
• 8:07
  coaching at that point, everybody would always go to,
• 8:12
  you know, a local high school or junior high, or something like
• 8:15
  that. And, you know, because of
• 8:18
  getting to know the, the track coaches at KU a little bit, I
• 8:22
  asked, you know, my advisor, was it possible that I do that with
• 8:26
  the track team? And they said well, nobody's
• 8:30
  ever asked before, I don't know, you need to go talk to the
• 8:33
  coaches and so I went to coach Timmons and asked if it was
• 8:37
  possible and he said sure absolutely.
• 8:39
  And and so I kind of shadowed if you will for a semester stay in
• 8:46
  the ruski who who was one of the assistants at that time, who
• 8:50
  worked with the Sprint, hurdle group.
• 8:55
  And and so that was that was all My first exposure to the sport,
• 9:01
  that's kind of how I got into it, but I got to give a
• 9:03
  shout-out, stay in the rooskies, a good friend of mine.
• 9:05
  When I first got into coaching on the Collegiate level, he was
• 9:07
  one of the first people I met as well down in Alabama and was
• 9:11
  also always just one of the nicest just greatest people that
• 9:15
  effort Mets. I love that.
• 9:16
  You had experience with staying at such an early age.
• 9:19
  I'm curious go back, either something.
• 9:22
  You and I have in common, but opposite you mentioned, you went
• 9:26
  to five different high schools during Your high school time.
• 9:29
  Now, I did similar except for I went to the same high school,
• 9:33
  all four years but before that so K through 8, I was adding it
• 9:36
  up once and I got to about 20 different schools.
• 9:39
  I always moved every year A lot of times twice a year.
• 9:42
  I'm sorry once a year in between and then sometimes Whiteside
• 9:45
  have three schools not from a little bit because of military,
• 9:49
  some of that, but just not good home, you know, back and forth
• 9:52
  to different places and stuff like that and I know how it
• 9:55
  affected me. I'm curious.
• 9:57
  How did that? You're always the new guy, you
• 10:00
  mentioned, how that's not a great Advantage for team sports,
• 10:02
  right? Because you always have to prove
• 10:03
  yourself in that position, you know?
• 10:05
  It's like well, man, they know me what I did last year, maybe
• 10:08
  I'll play some more this year, you're starting from scratch
• 10:11
  every year. How did that affect you?
• 10:12
  When you look back? Now, at this age and stage of
• 10:14
  your life, how did that affect you positively or negatively?
• 10:19
  Well, the just in general growing up.
• 10:21
  I'm from basically kindergarten on.
• 10:23
  I was never in the same school more than a year and a half.
• 10:26
  And at the time I was Just naive to it all.
• 10:29
  I just thought well this is how it is with everybody, you know?
• 10:32
  I just you know it was around military kids and this is what
• 10:36
  everybody does. So I never really thought of it
• 10:40
  as being as odd as it is as it is at the time just because of
• 10:50
  you know the the life of a military, you know officer you
• 10:54
  know is just what what it is but I didn't have as much trouble
• 11:00
  with it, I don't for whatever reason.
• 11:03
  I have a younger brother and two younger sisters and it seemed to
• 11:08
  affect them a little bit more. But for some reason, it didn't
• 11:13
  affect me as much. I guess I just adapted and went
• 11:17
  on and and, and I really like I said, I fell in love with sport
• 11:25
  which was kind of My father my mother they neither one of them
• 11:32
  had any interest in sport at all.
• 11:35
  Never and so it was I was just kind of different than everybody
• 11:41
  else in my family and that Rings true today for you Cliff you're
• 11:45
  just different. So I can't say it was a negative
• 11:52
  thing in my life. I in fact I think it probably
• 11:55
  was a positive thing because it has forced me to Be you know
• 11:58
  more adaptable. Yeah that's what I would say.
• 12:01
  You know there's negativity in the sense of like well you don't
• 12:03
  get deep friendships. You know, you make a best friend
• 12:06
  and you're gone. And this is including with me
• 12:08
  this was before internet day. So it's not like, oh we stayed
• 12:11
  in touch over Facebook or text message in.
• 12:13
  It's like yeah. No you were just gone at that
• 12:17
  point. So I think there was a lot of
• 12:19
  positivity though in the sense of like, okay, I walked in every
• 12:23
  year not knowing the other 20 children, I had to figure out
• 12:27
  where was my niche? Was I going to be friends with
• 12:29
  who was not the good kids Etc? And you had to repeat that every
• 12:32
  single time. So I thought there was some
• 12:35
  positivity to it. Even though I wasn't as like my
• 12:39
  wife thinks that my kind of outgoing extroverted this is
• 12:43
  because of that and I was like, well I certainly was not this
• 12:45
  way back. Then I was more of a shy kid and
• 12:47
  was not cool and popular, but you just learned to your point.
• 12:50
  I think the adaptability I think is the the right term there so
• 12:54
  you go to college in. You go to college, though?
• 12:58
  So like you're going to be a lawyer like this is you
• 13:00
  mentioned, education and history.
• 13:02
  So you're maybe kind of a teaching background where
• 13:04
  parents teachers, or what was the motive for that?
• 13:07
  No, I my dad was a military officer artillery officer and my
• 13:15
  mother, you know, was always a stay-at-home mom.
• 13:19
  So you know, she didn't work. So there was no teaching
• 13:22
  background. I started off actually, I was,
• 13:25
  you know, I was going to major in political science and I and
• 13:28
  Pretty much what I took for the first year and a half or so of
• 13:31
  college. And, and then I began to realize
• 13:34
  that. Well, if this law school thing
• 13:37
  doesn't work out, you know, what am I going to do with a
• 13:40
  political science degree? And so that's when I switched
• 13:42
  over to education and and I had such an interest in history and
• 13:46
  government and that type of thing.
• 13:48
  And so that's, that's actually what I taught in high school.
• 13:52
  But yeah, I don't know. I was, I was just ever like all
• 13:57
  of us. Us.
• 13:58
  I think at that age, you're just ever-evolving.
• 14:01
  You know what I thought I wanted to do, I mean I still have an
• 14:05
  interest in the law to this day. I love reading and so forth in
• 14:10
  that area but I just fell in love with coaching when I when I
• 14:17
  when I left Kay you I coached a small to a high school in Kansas
• 14:22
  for a couple of years and I was very fortunate to have you know,
• 14:27
  some wonderful Athletes to work with, you know, some of them,
• 14:32
  you know, went on to be tremendously successful as
• 14:35
  athletes and coaches themselves. You know, worked with, you know,
• 14:40
  coach Tom Hayes, in high school, you know, who coaches the
• 14:43
  verticality? KU now.
• 14:45
  Yeah, I coached Thomas Junior and senior year in high school,
• 14:49
  we had a guy named Ron McHenry who was a phenomenal basketball
• 14:53
  player that, you know, was a part of it division, two
• 14:57
  national Channel championship team at Washburn and won a
• 15:00
  national championship on the women's side, when he was
• 15:04
  coaching women's basketball at Washburn, just retired from
• 15:07
  coaching a couple of years ago. So I had, you know, I had some
• 15:10
  really wonderful kids and I think that had a lot to do with
• 15:16
  with me falling in love with the sport because of having the
• 15:19
  opportunity to work with, you know, really fine people, you
• 15:23
  know, and I just fine athletes. But if I like that, you know, it
• 15:27
  again. Very young age and so I I just
• 15:31
  fell in love with the sport. So how did is you were taking
• 15:35
  that practicum? And then you were shadowing with
• 15:38
  Naru ski and Timmons? How was your mindset?
• 15:42
  Like, did you know at that point you wanted to be a coach?
• 15:44
  So where you paying extra attention to how they structured
• 15:47
  practices and things like that? Or was it still like I just love
• 15:50
  the sports I'm just learning. It was really more, I just loved
• 15:53
  I fell in love with the sport. The kind of people that were
• 15:55
  involved in this sport. The uniqueness of Of the sport,
• 15:58
  you know, and that you have so many different disciplines.
• 16:02
  I really enjoyed all of that. But no to be perfectly honest,
• 16:08
  you know in terms of you know, how to coach the pole wall or
• 16:12
  you know hurdler or whatever I really wasn't into it like that
• 16:17
  at that point in time I was really more involved in you know
• 16:23
  like you said it was always kind of involved in the meat
• 16:24
  Administration stuff there as an undergrad and and just the
• 16:29
  organization of the sport and kind of bigger picture issues,
• 16:34
  if you will involving, you know, Collegiate Athletics in general
• 16:39
  and more specifically, you know, cross country and track and
• 16:42
  field coach Timmons was You know, very just a special,
• 16:49
  special coach, you know, truly one of the all-time greats, not
• 16:55
  not just because of the successes that he had, and
• 16:58
  obviously, they had a lot of that, you know, with their men's
• 17:02
  program in the 20 years that he was there.
• 17:05
  But, you know, the thing, the impression he left on me, he was
• 17:09
  just so concerned with the bigger picture, he was so
• 17:12
  concerned with the sport in general, and in its place in
• 17:17
  Collegiate Athletics. And, you know, he was involved
• 17:22
  with, you know, Cliff Wiley with the, the case of went all the
• 17:25
  way to the Supreme Court in which, you know, kids were, it
• 17:29
  was ruled that kids could keep their Pell Grant, you know, on
• 17:31
  top of their scholarship that was, you know, he was a part of
• 17:35
  all of that and he had he was working on a athletes Bill of
• 17:41
  Rights in the 70s. Wow.
• 17:46
  And literally had, you know, I it's hard to explain.
• 17:51
  I bet when he was done, he had probably 50 cartons full of
• 17:58
  articles that he had cut out over the years that were
• 18:02
  describing issues, that student athletes had to deal with.
• 18:11
  And you know many of those things little by little have
• 18:13
  been dealt with over the years and and and some some of it was
• 18:18
  what was really amazing. Is some of the solutions that he
• 18:21
  had for some of the so-called problems that we're dealing with
• 18:25
  today. Were.
• 18:29
  Literally, you know, scores of years ahead of time because at
• 18:33
  the time we'd have these discussions and I said coach, I
• 18:37
  just don't know how that would work.
• 18:38
  And and now you look at it today and you're like with it would
• 18:42
  work really well, if we were doing that.
• 18:44
  And so it was. So anyway, I think, you know,
• 18:47
  being around someone like that early on, you know, really got
• 18:54
  me more concerned with, you know, the the bigger issues.
• 18:59
  Sport and in our sport you know more specifically but but that
• 19:03
  was because of Coach Timmons tell us the so first that don't
• 19:06
  know. But you know I know cushman's by
• 19:08
  name obviously the track meet and you know in the history but
• 19:11
  never met him or even really know.
• 19:14
  Maybe necessarily a lot of stories about him how do you?
• 19:18
  So this was a big early influence on your specifically
• 19:22
  track coaching as you go into coaching track and field.
• 19:25
  What else you guys some great examples there.
• 19:28
  What else by style or how he treated you, he must have been a
• 19:31
  very athlete focused coach because you're talking about
• 19:34
  these talk about things, he wasn't asked washer coach of
• 19:37
  like no you guys just shut up and run seemed like he was the
• 19:39
  Bill of Rights for athletes. Things like that.
• 19:41
  He was very Progressive. Interesting that we think these
• 19:44
  issues that we're dealing with today are very new that in the
• 19:46
  last 10 to 15 to 20 years in. Psych know that we've been
• 19:49
  battling this for quite a long time and we're just now catching
• 19:52
  up to 40 50 years ago. Right, what what what influence
• 19:56
  does he have over your Mi you mentioned, you still like law or
• 20:01
  you, are you currently drafting another track and field Bill of
• 20:05
  Rights for athletes, or how does that affect you today?
• 20:08
  Well, I, in terms of his influence, I one extremely
• 20:16
  hardworking and and I was fortunate to be around a few
• 20:20
  coaches that were as a high school athlete and when I was,
• 20:27
  you know, doing the things I was doing As an undergrad at the
• 20:31
  University of Kansas, I was just around phenomenal, coaches,
• 20:36
  people, that had unbelievable work ethics.
• 20:38
  Bob Timmons, Gary Pepin, you know, people like that.
• 20:44
  But I think one of the things that struck me with Coach
• 20:47
  Timmons is just how much he truly cared about the sport and
• 20:52
  what was best for the sport and how much he cared about, you
• 20:55
  know, kids not just as athletes, but as you know, but People, he
• 21:00
  truly truly cared and you know, you mentioned didn't know much
• 21:06
  about his background. I think, you know, he coached I
• 21:08
  believe for like 20 years at KU. And so in 40 indoor/outdoor
• 21:14
  championships, I think they won 38, you know, in the time that
• 21:18
  he was there, you know, and they were parentally, you know, a
• 21:21
  top-10 NCAA type of a team, you know?
• 21:23
  I mean it just tremendously successful and a lot of that was
• 21:29
  You know, because of the phenomenal staffs that he had,
• 21:31
  you know, when he was there. But but, you know, for all that
• 21:37
  success, like I said, he was just as competitive and
• 21:41
  motivated to do well as anybody but all these other issues were
• 21:48
  just as if not more important to him and and that really had a
• 21:54
  huge impression on me that it was you know, that coaching.
• 21:59
  And working with kids is more about jumping high and scoring a
• 22:04
  lot of points, you know. It's and I think that I can't
• 22:10
  imagine I'm sure there are other people there.
• 22:14
  I would would have, had just, as a profound influence, but it's
• 22:17
  hard to imagine anyone. That could be more influential
• 22:20
  in terms of, you know, giving you pause and thinking about
• 22:25
  things. The right way if you will, at
• 22:29
  least the way I think, is the right way to think about Sport.
• 22:33
  And, you know, I mentioned this earlier, I think of you as a
• 22:35
  very all around a track coach not a Sprint's coach jumps coach
• 22:39
  and obviously there's certain events you get pegged more.
• 22:41
  The high jumper combined events. Etc was, did you learn that
• 22:46
  early on from like Bob in the staff or were they did that have
• 22:49
  to evolve for you? Like did you start out as like?
• 22:51
  Well I'm a Sprint coach or how many jumps coach.
• 22:54
  No I one of the things. Things that I observed early on
• 23:00
  is that, you know, so coach Timmons, for example, he was he
• 23:05
  was, you know, he was Jim Ryan's coach, you know, in high school
• 23:08
  and it KU and obviously no had, I think he coached I don't know.
• 23:13
  Three or four guys that had National High School records in
• 23:17
  the mile and, you know, bunch of relays and but he started what a
• 23:22
  lot of people don't realize is he started off as a swim coach
• 23:26
  and he actually Coach more national champions and more
• 23:29
  National record holders and high school and swimming than he did
• 23:33
  in track and field. Really.
• 23:35
  So here's a guy who had, you know, quite a background and he
• 23:40
  himself he coached him as his about 5'4 or 55 and he was a
• 23:44
  hurdler and in high school. Awesome.
• 23:47
  You know? So so here's a, I mean so the
• 23:50
  examples I saw and, you know, standing Russa, you know, a lot
• 23:55
  of the coach Pepin. A lot of these folks were very
• 24:00
  very knowledgeable about all aspects of the sport and and so
• 24:05
  that certainly had an influence on me.
• 24:09
  But when I coached it at high schools they said it was a very
• 24:11
  small school and I was, you know, basically the only coach,
• 24:17
  you know, we had a gal that that helped us that you know, had no
• 24:20
  background in the sport or coaching or anything and you
• 24:24
  know, wonderful person and a great.
• 24:27
  Great help. But, but I was forced to learn
• 24:30
  all of the events. And, and, and I really think
• 24:35
  that that was probably I think the two years that I spent
• 24:41
  coaching at mclouth high school was probably the best thing that
• 24:47
  ever happened to me because we didn't have a track.
• 24:51
  The first year we were there, we didn't have a pole, vault pit.
• 24:55
  You know, we had to drive to other communities to be able to
• 24:58
  Vault, you know, we had to be very creative and so, so I had
• 25:05
  to, I had to, you know, I was just forced to learn Earn as
• 25:08
  much as I could about the sport in a very short period of time.
• 25:11
  And it was I think it was probably the greatest thing that
• 25:17
  I was ever involved with and I've always encouraged, you
• 25:20
  know, when we have athletes or students that are interested in
• 25:24
  going into coaching and they say, you know what, you know
• 25:27
  oftentimes they you know they just want to You know, be at a
• 25:32
  Powerhouse division, one school, you know?
• 25:34
  And and I always talk to him about, you know, probably the
• 25:39
  best learning experiences. I had was an undergrad.
• 25:43
  Practicum at, KU the two years. I spent coaching at a small high
• 25:47
  school and then the two years I worked as a grad assistant, you
• 25:52
  know, on the men's side at KU when I after I, you know, I left
• 25:56
  the high school level that you know, whatever.
• 26:01
  Your period of time. That's really where it all
• 26:04
  happened, you know. There was no single moment if
• 26:08
  you will. That I so I'm going to be a
• 26:09
  coach I mean it just evolved over time because of those
• 26:14
  experiences it's interesting. You bring up the high school
• 26:17
  aspect of what it did for you now as a coach and you know
• 26:21
  there's the right or wrong perceived perception out there
• 26:27
  of like you know when a college goes to hire a coach well High
• 26:31
  School coach. Just can't do it because they
• 26:32
  can't do recruiting, or they can't do X or Y, or Z and yet,
• 26:36
  you know, after 200 plus interviews here on the podcast,
• 26:39
  like I should actually, I should actually keep stats how many
• 26:42
  great coaches like yourself that we talked to that like, oh yeah,
• 26:45
  started out in high school like a lot of coaches started on the
• 26:47
  high school level and I love the examples.
• 26:50
  You gave their the creativity that you had to come up with
• 26:52
  what I'm curious about. You know this is back in what
• 26:56
  years are this when you're at the high school?
• 26:59
  That would have been like 79 80 81 right in the middle so we
• 27:05
  could barely spell internet back in 79 and 80 today's world.
• 27:09
  It's a lot easier. There's almost are coats here.
• 27:12
  No excuse not to be able to learn other events with all the
• 27:16
  YouTube social media access to coaches.
• 27:19
  Etc. How did you as you were forced
• 27:21
  to learn all these different events.
• 27:23
  How did that happen for you? Back in 79 and 80?
• 27:25
  There was no YouTube to go search.
• 27:27
  Will, how do I coach hurdles? Exactly.
• 27:30
  Well, I think one of the things I've always said, one of the
• 27:34
  things that benefited me when I got involved in coaching and try
• 27:39
  in the sport of track and field was that I didn't had never
• 27:42
  competed in track and field and and so people look at me kind
• 27:46
  of, you know, what do you mean? I said, well, you know, I didn't
• 27:52
  end because I wasn't a great athlete and because I hadn't
• 27:54
  been a part of the sport. When I got involved in coaching,
• 27:58
  I didn't have Any past experience personally.
• 28:01
  So but I did have a lot of experience and biomechanics and
• 28:06
  exercise physiology from my studies undergraduate studies.
• 28:10
  And then and then grad, school was in Masters.
• 28:15
  I was working towards biomechanics, my my thesis was
• 28:19
  on the pole vault. So so I did have that science.
• 28:25
  If you will background And so, I didn't have misconceptions when
• 28:31
  I guess is many, perhaps, as some people like, well, this is
• 28:35
  what I ran fast, and this is what I did, right, jump high,
• 28:38
  and this is what I did. So so there were a lot of things
• 28:46
  that I saw being done, and I saw being taught that didn't really
• 28:50
  make a lot of sense to me. So.
• 28:56
  So my perception of some events is You know, was right away
• 29:00
  different than what a lot of other folks that, you know, the
• 29:03
  high jump being probably the one that stands out the most.
• 29:06
  And so we, you know, we approached, you know, we just
• 29:10
  kind of evolved into approaching things a little bit differently,
• 29:16
  but during that time I literally I spent every available sent I
• 29:21
  had on books and tapes and film and of course back then it was
• 29:28
  16, mm and 8, mm. And you know, but, you know, I
• 29:34
  spent, you know, didn't have much money.
• 29:37
  But what I had, I spent on that and I, you know, of accumulated,
• 29:42
  quite a library over the years. And that, that's something that
• 29:48
  I really, I really worked at it. I went to every Clinic I could
• 29:51
  find. I tried to speak to, you know,
• 29:55
  other High School coaches, And some of the college coaches that
• 29:59
  they got to know and just try to learn as much as I can.
• 30:02
  But I went to every Clinic. I, I kind of consider myself to
• 30:07
  be a product of the coaching education program.
• 30:13
  I was, you know, at the time when I was young and getting
• 30:18
  into it, and I went to the very first level one went to the very
• 30:23
  first level to taught the very first, you know, love L2 in the
• 30:27
  combined events and and you know.
• 30:30
  So I was always I was just very fortunate I guess to come around
• 30:34
  at a time where I was kind of at the ground level of all of that
• 30:38
  and certainly you know the people that you know that I had
• 30:43
  an opportunity to learn from and then learn with you know it you
• 30:49
  know teaching with them. You know, was a, it was a
• 30:54
  tremendous, you know, opportunity for me and I'm, you
• 31:00
  know, always always, always be appreciative of, you know, the
• 31:06
  coaching education program because I think I benefited as
• 31:10
  much as anybody from all of that.
• 31:11
  Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that and feel that
• 31:14
  one, you know, it's fascinating, what you said there about your
• 31:17
  background of not being an athlete and how that helps
• 31:19
  because you're able to look at things without some preconceived
• 31:22
  notions. Biases.
• 31:24
  Because, you know, I have a theory because you in the
• 31:26
  majority of our coaches were track athletes.
• 31:29
  They were coached by other track athletes and typically, when we
• 31:33
  go into coaching, we typically fall back to how we were coached
• 31:36
  is how we at least initially start coaching and then as we go
• 31:39
  through some coaching education and talking with peers doing our
• 31:41
  own thinking, looking at things, maybe a little differently we
• 31:44
  kind of catch up to how we're supposed to coach, right?
• 31:48
  And so I've had this theory that as amazing as Chances are
• 31:53
  happening today in 2023, which they are.
• 31:55
  I mean, it's amazing. Like I'm so glad I got out of
• 31:57
  coaching, you guys are doing things like I thought.
• 31:59
  I knew what I was doing coaching.
• 32:00
  Now I realize like and you guys were light years.
• 32:03
  Ahead of whatever I was trying to do out there on the track but
• 32:06
  my theory is that because of where coaching education today
• 32:10
  is both formal and informal so formally would like usatf level
• 32:14
  ones and twos you know World Athletics does coach education,
• 32:18
  u.s. tfcc a Altis I consider those formal education's and
• 32:22
  then This is important is the informal, the peer-to-peer
• 32:26
  things like that. I think because of how good that
• 32:29
  is. Today in 2023, that means our
• 32:33
  athletes are being coached better.
• 32:34
  Obviously, look at some of the results were and how deep the
• 32:37
  results are. Well, when some percentage of
• 32:39
  them goes on to become coach, well, they're going to fall back
• 32:41
  to how they're coached today in 2023, which means those kids in
• 32:45
  the future are going to start at a higher level, which means
• 32:48
  their upper level should be with, you know, a lot of things
• 32:50
  considered, genetics, etcetera, luck involved.
• 32:53
  L've should be even better. So I think we're at like the
• 32:55
  ground floor. We think things are crazy right
• 32:57
  now. I think in the next 10 to 15
• 32:59
  years, it's going to get boober nuts because the floor has just
• 33:04
  been raised where we're actually starting coaching people off.
• 33:06
  So it's fascinating to me that your background of not
• 33:12
  participate. Participate in the sport,
• 33:14
  helped, you develop that style and the maybe the non bias of
• 33:19
  well I was a hurdler. So I'm a hurdles coach.
• 33:21
  That's it was me. I was a hurdler.
• 33:23
  That's how my first coaching was, I'm a hurdles coach didn't
• 33:26
  look at the other events until forced into it, or, you know,
• 33:28
  had to for different reasons. So, maybe that helps for your
• 33:31
  own lack of bias of like, well I don't, I'm not a thing.
• 33:34
  I'm not a falter, I'm not a distance Runner, I just know
• 33:37
  tracks, I better kind of maybe figure it all out and then of
• 33:40
  course coaching High School helped with that, right?
• 33:42
  Well yeah I probably some valid my you know, greater success is
• 33:47
  coaching in high school was in cross country and distance
• 33:50
  running, you know? Is that we had, you know, some
• 33:54
  fine athletes like Tom and, you know, did really well and some
• 34:00
  of the other events. But what really at that time we
• 34:03
  were kind of known as a distance thing, you know?
• 34:06
  And when I worked as a ga at, KU, I worked with Roger Bolin
• 34:15
  who worked with the vault in the Sprint, hurdle group.
• 34:18
  And so those were the events that I worked with, you know,
• 34:21
  for the two years I was there with Them.
• 34:24
  And then when Carla coffee hired, me full-time, on the
• 34:26
  women's side, the programs were separate.
• 34:28
  At that time, I was hired to be the cross-country coach coach,
• 34:32
  the distance Runners. Now, I did also coach the jumps
• 34:34
  in the combined events but really the, I mean, it was kind
• 34:38
  of the foremost thing was cross-country and in distance.
• 34:43
  So that was really my start. In coaching was more in that
• 34:47
  area. And since since I came to Kansas
• 34:52
  State, it's been everything. Thing.
• 34:53
  But really the distances, I'm going to create a coaching
• 34:57
  trivia game one day. Those are gonna be the type of
• 34:59
  trivia questions, like where did he cliffordville toe really get.
• 35:02
  His start would have been like I was actually across country was
• 35:05
  his first major success there. Yeah, so a couple years coaching
• 35:09
  high school, he decided to go back to K.
• 35:11
  You to get your Master's and be a ga for the program.
• 35:14
  What did you end up getting your Masters in and what was the next
• 35:17
  step? And what I mean by The Next Step
• 35:19
  was the next step you were thinking was that I'll go back
• 35:22
  to coach High School more. Or was it?
• 35:24
  I'm going to go on to coach college at that point.
• 35:27
  Yeah. Well I actually didn't finish my
• 35:29
  Master's. I wrote the first three
• 35:31
  chapters, and I had taken all completed, all the course work,
• 35:38
  but I but as I said, I got hired full time by Carl on The Women's
• 35:43
  side, and I just, I'd never finished.
• 35:46
  Yeah, so I said, well, I got a job.
• 35:50
  So I'll just work hard at this and And and it was I didn't mean
• 35:55
  to not finish it, I just never did.
• 35:57
  Well, the point of education is to get a job.
• 35:59
  Right. So you before you even got the
• 36:01
  degree, you got that checked off perfect.
• 36:03
  Yeah, exactly. So but I really, you know, even
• 36:11
  when I got hired, you know, by Carla, which is my first, you
• 36:17
  know, full-time position at the Collegiate level, I did.
• 36:23
  Really have it in my mind that I was a Collegiate coach or I
• 36:26
  would continue coaching at the Collegiate level.
• 36:28
  I was just an opportunity at the time I intend, to be honest,
• 36:37
  even then. I was still thinking about law
• 36:39
  school, so I really don't think I was even though my heart was
• 36:46
  in coaching, you know, there was this other part of me that was
• 36:50
  like, well, you know, you're supposed to go to law school and
• 36:52
  be a lawyer. Sure.
• 36:53
  And and and so, it really wasn't until I was coaching full-time.
• 36:57
  Probably 34 years in which is about the time that the coaching
• 37:03
  education stuff began. And it really wasn't until then
• 37:12
  where I kind of decided, Well I guess this is what I'm going to
• 37:16
  do. You know most I'm a generalize
• 37:20
  here, most parents think of their It says they're growing up
• 37:24
  like oh he or she's going to be a lawyer, a doctor Wall Street,
• 37:29
  or whatever big fancy supposedly job title that they would be
• 37:33
  proud to be able to tell their friends.
• 37:35
  My son's a lawyer doctor right coaching no matter what sport
• 37:41
  especially the beginning level as your typically struggling,
• 37:44
  whether it's you know finding a job finding a job that pays well
• 37:47
  finding Roots Etc. Is usually a pretty tough aspect
• 37:51
  for, for that person. But for the parents, Errant can
• 37:53
  sometimes think like, what you know, they're just still trying
• 37:55
  to figure themselves out before they go to law school or
• 37:57
  whatever as you were starting to see me yourself, as, okay, I'm
• 38:01
  I'm a college track coaches. It was a fairly small job back
• 38:04
  then meeting. Like not, a lot of people had
• 38:06
  that job. What did your parents think?
• 38:09
  I just think about, you know, your mom raising what you said
• 38:11
  for kids total dad, obviously a high-level military.
• 38:16
  What did your parents think when you're like?
• 38:18
  Yeah guys, I'm a, I'm a track coach.
• 38:21
  Well, I think that I think they they kind of viewed it as a
• 38:29
  continuation of teaching like, you know.
• 38:31
  So in high school, I taught history and government Civics
• 38:34
  those types of courses and I think they just kind of thought
• 38:39
  that I was just continuing to do that.
• 38:40
  I'm just doing it at a Collegiate level as opposed to a
• 38:44
  high school level. I really don't think they
• 38:46
  realize that I was just a track coach you know, just that's all
• 38:51
  Did as I said, neither one of them had any background in sport
• 38:56
  really didn't have much interest in sport.
• 38:57
  And so, they didn't really understand, you know that at
• 39:03
  all, and they didn't understand my, you know, my draw to it or
• 39:07
  whatever. But but they were always
• 39:09
  supportive. See ya?
• 39:10
  Good. Yeah.
• 39:11
  My mom's telling her friends, you know?
• 39:14
  Oh, yeah, my son, Cliff, he's a professor at Ka.
• 39:17
  You like, yeah, Professor track. So let's go on your on the
• 39:25
  women's side there. Your coaching, you're still, you
• 39:28
  know, coaching education is starting to become and want to
• 39:31
  see it becomes integral to you and your career but it's
• 39:34
  becoming a thing for you. We're how does that work out?
• 39:38
  And what do you envisioning is this a at this time of Point?
• 39:42
  Are you thinking, like, well, I want to be a head coach of
• 39:45
  Kansas or Florida or wherever you might have thought that that
• 39:48
  point? Yeah, no.
• 39:50
  I I truly never had any desire to become a head coach at early
• 39:57
  on. I thought that if, if I could
• 40:01
  work with good people at a good institution that, that that was
• 40:08
  plenty and I never ever Envision being a head coach and the truth
• 40:17
  of the matter. So, So Steve Miller, you know
• 40:23
  when he left Cal Poly and came to Kansas State and he he was
• 40:28
  the head coach here for five or six years I believe.
• 40:33
  And so when he first came to Kansas State, you know, he had
• 40:39
  enormous amount of success at both the high school level at
• 40:42
  you know, bloom in Chicago. And and then it Cal Poly went,
• 40:47
  you know, one a number of national championships there at
• 40:49
  the division. Two level Whoa.
• 40:52
  And so when he came to Kansas State and he brought a lot of,
• 40:58
  you know, his former coaches and athletes with him, you know Greg
• 41:04
  craft and John Capriati manage Batista Randy called Darryl
• 41:09
  Anderson, you know that was that was the crew that he brought
• 41:12
  with him and and I just got to know those guys really well.
• 41:18
  And So when when Steve Miller made started to make the
• 41:24
  transition into Administration, he eventually became the
• 41:26
  athletic director at Kansas State, he they had offered well
• 41:33
  first it started off. He says hey you know I'm going
• 41:36
  to be moving into Administration Greg craft had just left I think
• 41:44
  to go to I believe it was Virginia to time and so he was
• 41:49
  going to hire. You know, a field events coach
• 41:53
  and he asked me to interview and but, but the uniqueness of it
• 41:58
  was, is that you were going to come in that initial year, work
• 42:01
  with him as an assistant and then you would become the head
• 42:04
  coach. The following year I was 32 33
• 42:09
  years old at the time and I'm like, coach i-i'm not ready to
• 42:14
  be a head coach at a division. One school, I don't have your
• 42:18
  kind of background and experience and so forth.
• 42:20
  I'm just I'm not ready and and he said well you know I kind of
• 42:27
  know who we want to hire. I just think that you should
• 42:29
  come in and go through the interview process and so forth
• 42:32
  and and so I did and it was it was it was a great learning
• 42:38
  experience. It's really the only interview
• 42:40
  I've ever had as I say kind of the first and maybe only
• 42:43
  interviewer. That's probably the only one I
• 42:45
  ever had. Yeah and and I went into it
• 42:47
  knowing that I wasn't going to get hired.
• 42:50
  And you didn't want me like, I have right here, you but, but
• 42:56
  anyway, I and that's where I really saw the difference in.
• 43:06
  I'm not in, please don't misunderstand, it's not, I'm not
• 43:10
  seeing better. I'm just saying the difference
• 43:13
  between the environments at the University of Kansas and Kansas
• 43:17
  State and it was You know can States has a big AG influence
• 43:24
  and so forth and it was you know, land-grant college.
• 43:28
  And you know just it's just a different feel.
• 43:32
  And and I really really was impressed with just how people
• 43:38
  friendly a place it was and so. But anyway, so I went through
• 43:46
  that process and you know, a week or so later I get a call
• 43:50
  from Coach Miller and he says, Cliff would like you to take the
• 43:53
  job. You're like, wait, I thought we
• 43:55
  talked about this. You were going to hire, you
• 43:59
  know. So and so yeah.
• 44:02
  It didn't work out, you know, you need to take the job.
• 44:05
  I said, coach, I'm not ready and well at the same time coach
• 44:10
  Timmons is announced that he's retiring and the athletic
• 44:15
  director, who was Bob Frederick at the time made a decision.
• 44:19
  They were going to come by In the programs and and in so Carla
• 44:28
  had left and moved on to. I believe it was Smith college
• 44:32
  at times. She was spent a lot of years
• 44:34
  there. A lot of years there.
• 44:35
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:36
  And and so they they the Bob Frederic said, you know, if you
• 44:44
  stay, you know, will make you the interim women's Coach for a
• 44:47
  year. You know, you're not going to
• 44:50
  get the job here but you know, you kind of tugged on my you
• 44:56
  know hard strings of being a KU alumni are ya.
• 45:01
  And so anyway I made a decision to stay there in because I knew
• 45:11
  that I just wasn't ready to be a head coach and so coach Miller
• 45:17
  wasn't too happy with me at the The time but still kind of kid
• 45:23
  about it today. But but so.
• 45:26
  But anyway, so John, you know, they hire John Capriati.
• 45:29
  He had left in spent a year or two at Northwestern coach and
• 45:32
  cross-country on the gal side there.
• 45:35
  Northwestern up in Chicago, Chicago.
• 45:37
  Yeah, I did not know that. Okay.
• 45:39
  Wow. And so and so they, so he, you
• 45:43
  know, he had coach John and high school and coached him at Cal
• 45:47
  Poly. And so, When he hired John no
• 45:52
  John was a ga at K-State. The same time I was a ga at KU
• 45:56
  and we had got to know each other and recruiting and all
• 45:59
  that other stuff and so so when he was hired then he offered me
• 46:05
  a position and I'm like, okay this is a different deal.
• 46:09
  And so I went there and Gary Schwartz had come in at the time
• 46:13
  is the is the head coach at KU the combined program and And you
• 46:19
  know, there really wasn't a spot for me.
• 46:21
  Anyway, so that's how I ended up at Kansas State when you go to
• 46:26
  Kansas State and, you know, you had the opportunity to be the
• 46:29
  woman's interim. Head coach at KU the initial
• 46:33
  offer at K-State was the come in and be the assistant and then
• 46:36
  take over the head. Now that you're at K-State as an
• 46:40
  assistant. Are you thinking differently
• 46:43
  about becoming head coach? Because you know now there had
• 46:45
  been some opportunities in front of you it seemed like maybe this
• 46:47
  was your path at least very Early in the career.
• 46:50
  And if so what did you do? Because there's a lot of
• 46:52
  assistant coaches out there right now that either believe
• 46:56
  they want to be a coach or think they want to be a head coach and
• 46:58
  there's some whole stipulations about what's different from
• 47:01
  being a head coach than being an assistant coach and not
• 47:03
  positively all necessarily by the way.
• 47:06
  So did you start preparing yourself to become a head coach
• 47:09
  here in the next? You know, there was no timeline
• 47:11
  at that point but you know the near future and if you did what
• 47:13
  were some of the things that you did to prepare yourself?
• 47:18
  I think that's a great question, and I think it's a lesson that a
• 47:23
  lot of us in the profession of coaching, maybe don't have the
• 47:31
  right mentoring earlier on and and so, they were kind of
• 47:37
  getting ahead of Heaven, are subject a little bit.
• 47:40
  You know? So no, even when I came to
• 47:44
  Kansas State, I had No desire to be a head coach 0.
• 47:51
  I wanted to just, I was hired at that time to come in and Coach
• 47:55
  the jumps and combined events, and I was excited about that.
• 47:59
  And in, that's all I wanted to do.
• 48:02
  And now I having said that one thing that was impressed upon me
• 48:11
  again. Coach Timmons, coach Pepin, you
• 48:14
  know, those were my two instructors when I took the
• 48:16
  coaching of Canfield class at the University of Kansas to Hall
• 48:20
  of Fame? Yeah, you know, and I was just
• 48:25
  around a lot of folks that had complete if you will
• 48:33
  backgrounds, you know, and their and their resume.
• 48:35
  So, Roger Bowen had coached at the community college level.
• 48:40
  So he had to coach everything, you know, Stan and coached, a
• 48:42
  lot of different things coach Pepin and coached at the high
• 48:45
  school level for a number of years before coming. 2K, use an
• 48:48
  assistant, he coached a lot of things.
• 48:51
  You know, coach Timmons was coaching distance Runners and
• 48:53
  throwers, you know, when he was a king.
• 48:57
  And so, you know, the idea of You know, being a specialist was
• 49:06
  not anything that I ever heard about.
• 49:10
  When I started in coaching, it was just the opposite.
• 49:12
  It was like, you want to learn as much as you can about
• 49:16
  everything and that will make you a better coach, at whatever
• 49:20
  it is, you're doing, you know, the, I've always felt like the
• 49:24
  years. I spent coaching distance has
• 49:27
  helped me as a Sprint hurdle coach.
• 49:29
  It helped me as a combined event coach.
• 49:33
  So I, you know, I personally think that, that, that we should
• 49:38
  be striving to have a really keen understanding of
• 49:42
  everything. The other thing that I had heard
• 49:45
  early on, and I don't even remember who told me this, but
• 49:50
  somewhere along the way it was, it was told to me that if you're
• 49:55
  going to be a successful head coach, then you need to have a
• 50:01
  very good understanding of all the events and, and the, the
• 50:09
  issues that that coaches a deal with those events have to deal
• 50:13
  with. Because how else are you going
• 50:15
  to be able to hire evaluate coaches?
• 50:20
  How else are you going to be able to understand what's going
• 50:23
  on in these other areas? If you don't have any
• 50:25
  understanding of it at all, and, and that, that always resonated
• 50:32
  with me. And so I, I've always
• 50:36
  encouraged, you know, young coaches, or, you know, athletes
• 50:40
  transitioning from going into coaching, to, to learn as much
• 50:45
  as they can about the other areas, we had a gal, renetta,
• 50:51
  Siler, who was a very fine. Thrower for us at Kansas state,
• 50:57
  did everything shot disc Hammer jab and she decided she wanted
• 51:06
  to go into coaching. And when she asked about helping
• 51:11
  us out in a, you know, kind of a volunteer role, her first year
• 51:15
  out. I just assumed that, you know,
• 51:19
  she wanted to work in the throw his area and and She said no
• 51:25
  coach. No I don't want to do that.
• 51:26
  I I've done that I have an understanding of that.
• 51:30
  I want to be a track coach. I want to I want to follow you
• 51:34
  and the jumps and combined events and Sprints and hurdles
• 51:37
  and stuff and and you know she coached national champions in
• 51:42
  long jump and and so forth that division two level.
• 51:46
  So and she had me she had great success in the throes of the
• 51:50
  division one level. But but she coached you know,
• 51:54
  Very, very successful athletes in an event areas that no one
• 52:00
  ever envisioned her coaching. I like that.
• 52:03
  I like that advice. You know, if you put a different
• 52:06
  spin into it, I always advise young coaches, typically young,
• 52:10
  Sprint's coaches will hang out with other spring coaches and
• 52:13
  that's great. You know, there's a lot of
• 52:14
  commonalities there, but I mentioned two coaches who ever
• 52:18
  have a dream of becoming head coach.
• 52:19
  It's like, well how if you want to get hired somewhere?
• 52:23
  It's too. Buckley not going to be the same
• 52:25
  head. Coach is not going to be your
• 52:26
  coat, you know, another Sprint coach isn't going to typically
• 52:28
  hire another spring clip, so you distance coach and throws coach,
• 52:30
  Etc. So you better know other people?
• 52:32
  I like your side of it of like, well, hey, if you're going to be
• 52:35
  a head coach, well, how in the world can you evaluate your
• 52:38
  distance coach, in your shop? Put candidates and things like
• 52:41
  they're your throws candidates? If you don't have even an
• 52:43
  understanding of it, is it just blind trust?
• 52:46
  Like okay well they did well I guess I'll you go do your thing
• 52:48
  over there and we'll meet up at the track meet I guess I love
• 52:52
  that advice of like even if you're not To be a coach of a
• 52:56
  lot of different events at least have some understanding of their
• 53:00
  common complaints concerns issues positives.
• 53:04
  Also, the positive sides of that, that's really good advice
• 53:06
  out there to be really that complete track and field coach.
• 53:09
  Not that specialized quote-unquote, specialized
• 53:14
  coach, right? Yeah, it's we for example, when
• 53:18
  I first became the head coach at Kansas State, the first thing I
• 53:22
  did literally the first First thing I did, you know within 48
• 53:26
  Hours of being named a position is went to Administration and
• 53:31
  said we've got to move our discus rings.
• 53:33
  They're there in the exact opposite corners of this.
• 53:36
  I don't know why it was done that way but they're not where
• 53:39
  they should be and you know we didn't have cages and and at
• 53:44
  that time and it was literally the first thing I said is we got
• 53:48
  to get this changed and so I think that it's just Very
• 53:54
  difficult. I think to manage a program.
• 53:57
  If you just don't understand the unique needs concerns issues of
• 54:03
  the different event areas and the coaches.
• 54:06
  I just think it would be almost impossible to do, but we've got
• 54:09
  a lot to explore that topic because you have a passion for
• 54:11
  and I have a passion for. Let's keep moving forward.
• 54:14
  In your journey, you just mentioned, when you became one
• 54:17
  of the first things you did, when you became the head coach
• 54:19
  at Kansas State. So, how did that evolve?
• 54:21
  You're the assistant coach working with combined?
• 54:24
  It's, how does that career continued to move forward to
• 54:27
  where either you finally relented and decided you did
• 54:29
  want to become a head coach, or you were just forced into and
• 54:31
  someone made you the head coach. Well, we so John Capriati, who
• 54:38
  was the head coach and work, you know, with him for basically,
• 54:45
  three and a half years. So in November of 92, he left to
• 54:49
  go work for Nike. And, and, and that was when they
• 54:54
  They named me first in her room and then, you know, few months
• 54:58
  later, whatever it was, you know, they had coach going
• 55:00
  forward. So it wasn't anything I applied
• 55:03
  for wasn't anything. I pursued I was just here and
• 55:08
  and, you know, it was a I was just, you know, I guess
• 55:15
  literally in the right place at the right time and just had that
• 55:18
  opportunity. I know I mentioned earlier that,
• 55:22
  you know, after one year as a grad assistant at KU I was being
• 55:28
  offered positions at some really fine programs.
• 55:36
  There was no way I was ready for that but because because I was
• 55:43
  at KU which was such a Powerhouse if you will program
• 55:47
  at the time and was working, you know, around coaches that were
• 55:51
  everyone had such respect for They're like, well, give this
• 55:56
  young guy a shot or whatever, but but I knew I wasn't ready.
• 56:00
  I knew I wasn't ready. And and every year I'm being
• 56:03
  offered jobs that I know I'm not ready for and I was not going to
• 56:08
  put myself in a position unless I knew I was going to be able to
• 56:12
  succeed. I just wasn't going to do that.
• 56:16
  Maybe he's part of it. Is that military background?
• 56:19
  You know what's what? We're What's kind of famous
• 56:24
  about the military is that you know as the Peter Principle you
• 56:28
  know, your eyes to your level of incompetence and and I didn't
• 56:33
  want to be a victim of that and so I I probably could have had
• 56:41
  jobs. Throughout my career much
• 56:45
  sooner. But I I knew I wasn't ready and
• 56:51
  I wasn't going to put my myself in a position to fail when I
• 56:56
  knew that I wasn't prepared, you know, as well as I should be at
• 56:58
  that point in time. So well cliff and I know that's
• 57:02
  a difficult thing to advise somebody to do, but I do think
• 57:07
  people have to be, you know, self aware enough to to look
• 57:11
  and, you know, in my really ready for this or would another
• 57:17
  year, you know, benefit me. And so I think that was one of
• 57:24
  the few smart things I've probably done in my life is is I
• 57:28
  didn't put myself in a position that I knew I shouldn't be in.
• 57:31
  Well, that begets, the question you mentioned self-awareness,
• 57:34
  which is a key but also very hard socially in the moment in
• 57:39
  maybe at that point in time these different point in times
• 57:42
  that you're describing you. Not have been able to verbalize
• 57:45
  why I'm not ready. I'm not going to put myself in
• 57:47
  this position, but maybe now after a few Decades of coaching
• 57:51
  and coaching a lot of young people throughout their careers.
• 57:54
  How do you someone out there? Right now is asking this
• 57:56
  question. So that's why I have to ask it,
• 57:58
  so how do you know when you're ready?
• 58:00
  So if you said, I know, I wasn't ready.
• 58:02
  I'm not going to put myself in that position.
• 58:03
  How do you know when you're ready to take, whatever the next
• 58:06
  quote, unquote, big job is or how do you know when you're
• 58:09
  ready to be the head coach, and maybe an add-on question, is Do
• 58:13
  you always have to know that you're ready?
• 58:15
  Is there sometimes a little bit of putting the cart before the
• 58:17
  horse and catching up to it in a different positions?
• 58:21
  Yeah, well yeah how do you mean how do we ever know?
• 58:25
  OK. Truly am I ready?
• 58:27
  You know but but I but I think that you know, again is far as
• 58:31
  you know, being a track coach is concerned.
• 58:33
  If if you may have you may have worked with or shadowed a coach
• 58:41
  but you know have you actually In training, you know, have you
• 58:44
  actually been involved in you know in recruiting you know one
• 58:49
  of the things that that a grad assistant at the University of
• 58:53
  Kansas back at that time working for Bob Timmons and Gary Pepin
• 58:56
  you're gonna recruit you learn how to recruit and you learn to
• 59:01
  work hard at recruiting. So I wasn't worried about that
• 59:06
  part of it because I'd been shown by the best how to do
• 59:11
  that. But I you know, Oh, I hadn't had
• 59:14
  those opportunities of, you know, writing program at that
• 59:22
  point in time for for larger groups or whatever.
• 59:27
  Maybe, you know, I was kind of working at the time with, you
• 59:31
  know, 400 hurdlers and a lot with the pole vault, you know,
• 59:35
  but there was a lot of other stuff that I didn't work as much
• 59:38
  with and so I just knew that I needed to have more experience
• 59:41
  and have more exposure. Your two other things before I
• 59:45
  would you know, it's going to feel real comfortable and maybe
• 59:48
  that's part of it, too. You know, I think maybe some
• 59:50
  people are there, they can be comfortable being a little bit
• 59:54
  uncomfortable. And at that point in time, I
• 59:59
  guess maybe I just wasn't one of those folks.
• 1:00:03
  Well, I had feel more comfortable.
• 1:00:05
  Well, I think the key to that right there to what you just
• 1:00:07
  said there, is that self-awareness?
• 1:00:09
  Because I think you're spot on. There are people that are better
• 1:00:12
  at in need to be a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit,
• 1:00:15
  just ahead of the curve and catching up to things, and
• 1:00:17
  there's other people that don't, they need to be brought along.
• 1:00:21
  Neither are incorrect. The incorrect is when the person
• 1:00:23
  who thinks they need to be comfortable, does it take the
• 1:00:25
  leap or vice versa? So that self-awareness?
• 1:00:28
  I think is key. I think that might be maybe your
• 1:00:30
  superpower of through your careers that self-awareness of,
• 1:00:33
  okay. I believe I need to be here and
• 1:00:34
  I think I need to do this. I need to make sure I'm not
• 1:00:36
  focusing on just one event group Etc.
• 1:00:40
  We touched on it a little bit earlier about the difference
• 1:00:43
  between We need a head coach and an assistant coach and I
• 1:00:46
  mentioned that, you know, there's some assistant coaches
• 1:00:47
  that think they want to be head coaches.
• 1:00:48
  And they really don't, because of the different
• 1:00:52
  responsibilities that a head coach has to occur for
• 1:00:55
  naturally. Just being in that quote
• 1:00:57
  unquote, big chair as you became the head coach of Kansas State.
• 1:01:01
  What surprised you the most what did was there an aspect of the,
• 1:01:04
  the new job? The head coaching job that
• 1:01:06
  you're like, man, I did not see that coming.
• 1:01:09
  I didn't know I had to be responsible for x y&z.
• 1:01:13
  Or did you get brought along with some of these amazing
• 1:01:16
  mentors? You had your life?
• 1:01:18
  Did they bring you in on those things as an assistant coach?
• 1:01:20
  I'm thinking things like very much like recruiting and writing
• 1:01:23
  work writing real workouts and things like that.
• 1:01:26
  I'm thinking of, you know, ordering equipment, scheduling
• 1:01:30
  travel alumni, fundraising things like that.
• 1:01:35
  What surprised you the most or did you get brought up in the
• 1:01:38
  right speed and maybe it was just, you just had a different
• 1:01:40
  title now, at this point. Yeah, it will.
• 1:01:43
  Good thing for me. I think I kind of felt like I
• 1:01:47
  was ready to to manage the tasks.
• 1:01:54
  Like I said, I didn't have any strong desire to be the head
• 1:01:57
  coach, but I felt like I was ready because I'd been.
• 1:02:01
  I'd already worked in every single event area, at one time
• 1:02:04
  or another. At that point in time, I had
• 1:02:06
  already been heavily involved in recruiting heavily involved, in
• 1:02:11
  meat Administration, When I was a ga I was, you know, running
• 1:02:16
  off, you know, marathons and cross country races and track
• 1:02:23
  meets. I work with the man, she's me
• 1:02:27
  the Lauren at that time. Lawrence Track Club.
• 1:02:31
  You know, we had 250 kids in the spring program and and so I had
• 1:02:36
  done all of those kinds of things.
• 1:02:38
  I've been exposed to every aspect of the sport and of Being
• 1:02:43
  a program. So I wasn't caught by surprise
• 1:02:48
  by anything at that point in time which is and in part of the
• 1:02:52
  reason for that is coach Timmons had a philosophy of changing
• 1:02:58
  responsibilities of most certainly the gaas but the even
• 1:03:08
  even the full-time assistance from year to year because he
• 1:03:12
  wanted them. M1 not to get stale but two to
• 1:03:17
  have an opportunity to be exposed to every aspect of the
• 1:03:19
  program. And and I think that maybe it
• 1:03:22
  was, he that kind of said to me that, you know, you got to be
• 1:03:26
  aware of even as to be a good assistant, you've got to be
• 1:03:33
  aware of everything. Certainly, as a head coach, you
• 1:03:36
  got to be aware of everything. And the only way you're going to
• 1:03:40
  gain that awareness is by doing it.
• 1:03:43
  And and so, so with the gaas, for example at that time and
• 1:03:49
  when I was there, we had you didn't you didn't have the
• 1:03:51
  limits and things like you do today.
• 1:03:53
  You know, we had seven gaas, and no seven gaas, every single one
• 1:03:58
  of them, eventually. Went on to become a head Cross
• 1:04:00
  Country, Coach, or ahead, track and field coach at a division.
• 1:04:03
  One level, you know, Al Schmidt, you know, as long time head
• 1:04:07
  coach at Florida, State was one of the gaas at.
• 1:04:09
  KU, at the time, I did not know that, you know, big daddy.
• 1:04:12
  Al's like my dad. I mean, come on.
• 1:04:13
  I love Val. I did not know.
• 1:04:14
  He was one of the gaas there. Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:04:17
  So so I mean not just their full-time staff but when you
• 1:04:22
  look at the people that were gaas there at the time.
• 1:04:25
  No it's pretty amazing. You know and And so I think that
• 1:04:30
  that's you know having to having that background and you know him
• 1:04:37
  rotating gaas from event group to event group.
• 1:04:41
  Now I didn't really get that opportunity but most of the guys
• 1:04:45
  they spent time with different coaches and different event
• 1:04:49
  areas and my second year is a ga coach.
• 1:04:55
  Tim has made the decision that I was going to be the Sprint
• 1:04:57
  hurdle coach. and because he wanted the, the full-time coach,
• 1:05:02
  Roger bone at the time to concentrate on recruiting and he
• 1:05:05
  could continue to do Vault and all that but but he really
• 1:05:08
  wanted him to focus on recruiting and so he just made
• 1:05:11
  that decision and you know, so I mean I was a great opportunity
• 1:05:16
  for me to because I was forced now To do program design for all
• 1:05:23
  of those athletes and and I hadn't I'd never done that
• 1:05:29
  before with sprinters and hurdlers, you know.
• 1:05:32
  So, so anyway, I the I think you know, because I was exposed to,
• 1:05:40
  you know, how he did things and that resonated with me, you
• 1:05:46
  know, I I always was willing to take on whatever, you know,
• 1:05:50
  Responsibilities needed to be done.
• 1:05:56
  Just knowing that eventually, this is going to help me just
• 1:06:00
  become a better Coach, whether I become a head coach or not.
• 1:06:04
  I think the best staffs Are where you have a lot of people.
• 1:06:10
  Whether they have the desire to be head coach or not, They do
• 1:06:14
  have a desire to learn everything they can learn about
• 1:06:18
  running a program. those are the best staffs out there, you know,
• 1:06:24
  I think I would, I happen to be at KU, at the time when when
• 1:06:30
  Larry Brown was coaching there and The there was a point there
• 1:06:38
  was a year, there was a staff, that's just unbelievable.
• 1:06:43
  And, and they were very very successful at this time.
• 1:06:46
  But but when you hear the names that were on this staff you
• 1:06:53
  right away, understand? Okay, that's why they were what
• 1:06:56
  they were. So John Calipari was a grad
• 1:07:01
  assistant there at the time. Pretty good.
• 1:07:05
  You know, Coach Brown says, you know, I want you to go sit down
• 1:07:08
  and talk to Cliff about, you know, plyometric training, you
• 1:07:12
  know. And you know, so we wrote
• 1:07:15
  programs for, you know, the basketball team.
• 1:07:18
  Oh really? Yeah, the Bob Hill was the top
• 1:07:23
  assistant the time, he coached many years in the NBA after that
• 1:07:27
  Alvin Gentry was on that staff. Popovich was on that staff RC
• 1:07:32
  Buford, who's the GM at San Antonio was on that stage.
• 1:07:35
  Of Bill self was on that staff mean.
• 1:07:39
  Wow. Never been a staff more
• 1:07:42
  accomplished. You know, in any sport, you know
• 1:07:46
  the same time it was it was phenomenal, but they were but as
• 1:07:51
  I said, jump out, Calipari was a ga at that time and so all those
• 1:07:55
  guys were different stages of their career.
• 1:08:00
  But almost all those guys are in the Hall of Fame.
• 1:08:02
  Yeah. Right.
• 1:08:03
  We're soon to be welded. Yeah.
• 1:08:06
  And you know, it was just a phenomenal staff but they were
• 1:08:12
  different stages and they were all being exposed to doing
• 1:08:14
  different things and obviously it paid off for him.
• 1:08:19
  So I, you know, I just think that, you know, that that
• 1:08:23
  willingness I think one of the worst things we can do to
• 1:08:26
  ourselves. Is this is just my opinion.
• 1:08:30
  Is to become a specialist. When we started the podcast back
• 1:08:35
  in January of twenty, the initial goal was to uplifted
• 1:08:38
  honor coaches around the world and specifically here in the us
• 1:08:42
  as we moved along you know in year 1 and year 2, it became
• 1:08:46
  from feedback, pretty evident of the other value that we are
• 1:08:50
  bringing that you're bringing to listeners.
• 1:08:53
  So with that, in mind, I want to go on this topic.
• 1:08:56
  That's exactly what you were just talking about there about
• 1:09:00
  Coaches and development and professional development into
• 1:09:03
  future head coaches, one of my favorite questions to ask guests
• 1:09:08
  when they become when we go through the Journey and they
• 1:09:11
  become a head coach, if that's part of their Journey.
• 1:09:12
  My favorite question is always asking.
• 1:09:14
  I asked it a little bit different for you but I always
• 1:09:15
  ask were you prepared and the real self-aware ones always say?
• 1:09:20
  Yeah no, I was not. So, you know, I didn't know
• 1:09:22
  idea. X y&z had occurred as well and
• 1:09:27
  as I delve into again, you know, when you interview 200, Coaches,
• 1:09:30
  you learn a lot of things and use my own experience of 10
• 1:09:34
  years of coaching as well. It doesn't feel like, and this
• 1:09:38
  is a generalization, I realize even a sample group of 200 is a
• 1:09:41
  small. It doesn't feel like we as a
• 1:09:44
  coaching body are doing a good job of developing assistant
• 1:09:47
  coaches into future head coaches that we don't share some of the
• 1:09:51
  responsibilities. I love what you talked about
• 1:09:54
  there with, KU of like, oh yeah, we rotated, you know, one year
• 1:09:56
  you are in charge of this, may be the next year you in charge
• 1:09:58
  of that or you shadowed this. For what they could focus on.
• 1:10:02
  I don't see a majority of that going on.
• 1:10:05
  I see more of that specialization of pay your, my
• 1:10:07
  throws coach go recruit and Coach the throws eyes.
• 1:10:12
  The head coach, I'm going to do all the scheduling, all the
• 1:10:14
  budget. I'm going to bring you in like
• 1:10:17
  and I don't know if that's a if it's an ego thing in regards to
• 1:10:21
  like, no, I want to keep control the bad ego.
• 1:10:23
  Ego is not bad. Bad ego is bad.
• 1:10:25
  So as an ego of control, I want to keep control over all of
• 1:10:29
  these X, or is it a time thing? I mean, what'd you do today in
• 1:10:32
  2023 is a head coach. You agree or disagree?
• 1:10:35
  Here is different than what you did in 1995, or what the year
• 1:10:40
  you did. As a head coach in regards to
• 1:10:42
  just all the other things that are going on with the world cell
• 1:10:45
  phone social media in il, the whole shebang rules changing
• 1:10:49
  every year that you keep it up and making sure everybody's and
• 1:10:53
  compliance things like that, you seem to.
• 1:10:57
  And I, you know, I know a lot of your former assistants who have
• 1:10:59
  gone on to be Assistant coaches at other places or head coaches
• 1:11:02
  and other places. And I've talked to several of
• 1:11:04
  those guys and gals through my my life and they always seem
• 1:11:07
  like the ones that were more prepared.
• 1:11:08
  They talked about like, yeah, I was, you know, a cake, a state.
• 1:11:11
  I was able to do this part, not just focus on my my, my event
• 1:11:15
  area in my vent recruiting talk to us about that importance.
• 1:11:19
  Like there's other head coaches that are listening right now,
• 1:11:21
  maybe so maybe we can make some change here.
• 1:11:24
  Talk about the importance of Delegation and maybe it's more
• 1:11:29
  intentionality. A of professional development of
• 1:11:32
  your assistant coaching staff that they want to can.
• 1:11:34
  One day, can either become the head coach at your institution.
• 1:11:36
  One day, you're going to be gone or another institution.
• 1:11:39
  Talk to us about that intentionality and importance of
• 1:11:41
  that. For the the the profession of
• 1:11:44
  coaching as as large, I think it's important to and I tell our
• 1:11:52
  staff, you know, that that the repeating myself, but the best
• 1:11:57
  staffs our staffs made up of To want to arm themselves with all
• 1:12:02
  the skills, they need to ultimately become a successful
• 1:12:05
  head coach. So you need to be knowledgeable
• 1:12:08
  about more than just the events that that you're passionate more
• 1:12:12
  most passionate about, right? You need to be a familiar with,
• 1:12:21
  you know, ordering equipment, and, and shoes, and most kinds
• 1:12:26
  of things. You know, you maybe at one
• 1:12:28
  institution, where you don't have to do.
• 1:12:29
  Ooh that but you may be a head coach at institution where
• 1:12:33
  you're going to have to do that and meet Administration, you
• 1:12:38
  know, putting on meets. I mean there's there's, you
• 1:12:43
  know, I mean obviously we have some really wonderful facilities
• 1:12:47
  in our country and we're getting more of them.
• 1:12:50
  But for many years, you know, there weren't as many
• 1:12:53
  facilities. And there were a lot of people
• 1:12:55
  that weren't putting on track meets and have no idea what it
• 1:12:58
  is to put on a track meet. And and and I will say that I
• 1:13:04
  think a lot of times, those people are not very appreciative
• 1:13:07
  of those people who do put on track meets and and
• 1:13:11
  understanding of what they're going through to put on this
• 1:13:14
  meat that. So that you have an opportune
• 1:13:15
  oh, opportunity to compete there.
• 1:13:19
  But you know, so again, I it's kind of hard for you to
• 1:13:21
  appreciate The work that they're putting on to put on this meat
• 1:13:25
  when you've never put on a track meet?
• 1:13:27
  Yeah. And and so so I think that you
• 1:13:34
  know what we what we try to do not necessarily every year but
• 1:13:39
  in you know certainly with people that have been with us
• 1:13:41
  for and we've had a lot of assistance to been here for a
• 1:13:44
  long time. Is kind of rotate
• 1:13:48
  responsibilities, get them exposed to doing different
• 1:13:51
  things. And I've always been, you know,
• 1:13:55
  encouraging of of them. You know, going and spending
• 1:14:04
  some time at the throwers ring and watching coach Watson work,
• 1:14:07
  and and so forth. I mean, you know, we we have
• 1:14:12
  some really fine coaches here now and people that have, you
• 1:14:15
  know, lots of had lots of success and lots of experience.
• 1:14:19
  And you know, you're you're just a fool.
• 1:14:22
  If you don't go over and spend some time just talking shop with
• 1:14:26
  Randy Cole, you know who's coached it.
• 1:14:29
  Every level and has been successful everywhere restful.
• 1:14:32
  Yeah. You know.
• 1:14:34
  So, so anyway, I that's something that we've always
• 1:14:39
  encouraged and try to Foster as best we can.
• 1:14:41
  And I think it's I think it would benefit everyone's program
• 1:14:46
  if they did that, I in talking to High School coaches, you
• 1:14:52
  know, about working with athletes, for example, not only
• 1:14:59
  is the athlete going to benefit from.
• 1:15:03
  Not specializing but your team is going to benefit from them
• 1:15:08
  not specializing believe that strongly and so you know I yeah
• 1:15:18
  I think you got a drink out of different fountains.
• 1:15:22
  What do you say to the person that says okay there are you
• 1:15:24
  know 20 events and I can either try to learn all of them in some
• 1:15:31
  you know some are going to be a little deeper than others of
• 1:15:32
  course. Or I can narrow down into one or
• 1:15:37
  two Specialties, and I can get really deep.
• 1:15:40
  So Cliff, that's great. That you can coach, the 1500,
• 1:15:43
  the decathlon. Just as good as you can coach,
• 1:15:45
  the javelin as good as you can, coach the hurdles and the
• 1:15:47
  hundred. But I'm going to, my Spurs are
• 1:15:49
  going to beat you because I do everything air quotes there on
• 1:15:53
  everything. But I know much more about how
• 1:15:55
  to develop sprinters. What do you say to the person
• 1:15:57
  that says, this is why I'm a specialist because I can get
• 1:15:59
  deeper in that area. Well.
• 1:16:05
  I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.
• 1:16:07
  But what I would say, though, the caveat being that, yes, but
• 1:16:12
  you're also going to become a better spring coach, if you have
• 1:16:17
  a better understanding of some of these other disciplines,
• 1:16:21
  right? So, you know, maybe maybe your
• 1:16:25
  your ideas with respect to moldable jump training.
• 1:16:29
  Could be enhanced if you were Sharing with the person working
• 1:16:34
  with the jobs or you know what you do.
• 1:16:37
  In the weight room could be enhanced if you were spending
• 1:16:41
  time with that person who, which in many programs typically tends
• 1:16:45
  to be throws coaches that, you know, maybe have a little bit
• 1:16:49
  deeper understanding of the weight room, right?
• 1:16:51
  And so, but but certainly, You know, all I can tell you this
• 1:17:01
  and over the years, I've had an opportunity to work with a lot
• 1:17:07
  of athletes that have you know competed in World Championships
• 1:17:11
  Olympic games like that. I've had opportunities to be on
• 1:17:13
  a lot of staffs and that kind of thing.
• 1:17:16
  And and I've roomed with people like George Williams and Clyde
• 1:17:24
  heart, And I mean just on and on born C grade and path.
• 1:17:34
  Bouche next in here, spent a couple weeks with Dennis shaver
• 1:17:43
  clear back in 1993 at the world championships in Stuttgart were
• 1:17:46
  bouncing around from room to room.
• 1:17:48
  Just find it a bed, you know, and In in some of the clinics
• 1:17:55
  that broke out were absolutely phenomenal.
• 1:18:00
  Right? Remember to, we spent almost two
• 1:18:04
  weeks in a hotel room with Coach heart.
• 1:18:09
  Very late. In his career we're World
• 1:18:13
  Championships in London and he said He said every day we're
• 1:18:22
  let's talk about an event. And so literally, you know, it
• 1:18:27
  might start in the afternoon or whatever and it just go through
• 1:18:29
  the evening. And it could be over a cup of
• 1:18:32
  coffee, or tea, or whatever, or it could be over a beer or glass
• 1:18:35
  of wine, but they went well into the early morning hours.
• 1:18:39
  And one of the things that that I tell people this because this
• 1:18:48
  is what, you know, I think what you're asking is.
• 1:18:50
  So here's a guy at the end of his career, who's had phenomenal
• 1:18:56
  success in, you know, not only from a team perspective but
• 1:19:01
  individually and so forth with his athletes in and he said clip
• 1:19:08
  tomorrow, I want to talk about high jump.
• 1:19:11
  And I said, just the high jump. He said, yeah, I want to talk
• 1:19:15
  about the high jump. He says, I want I want to hear
• 1:19:18
  everything, you know, about the high jump.
• 1:19:20
  And and so we literally talked about the high jump, 48 hours.
• 1:19:24
  And here's a guy who's 70-plus years old at the right here,
• 1:19:27
  who's not coaching that event, but he just wanted to learn
• 1:19:31
  everything he can learn about the high jump.
• 1:19:32
  Wow. And, but I've had the same kinds
• 1:19:36
  of conversation with Harvey glance with George.
• 1:19:41
  M&M's with yeah, you know what I mean?
• 1:19:43
  People who have been doing this for a long time.
• 1:19:46
  Yeah, very high level and and they want to talk about things
• 1:19:50
  that are outside of their comfort zone outside of what
• 1:19:54
  they do, because they want to learn.
• 1:19:57
  And so again, so that's specialist.
• 1:20:01
  That's fine. That's good.
• 1:20:04
  But don't tell me you can't learn right from other people
• 1:20:07
  that do different things in other disciplines.
• 1:20:10
  Because if you believe that then, That that's not good and
• 1:20:16
  as someone who's seen a lot of different athletes.
• 1:20:18
  So you know you throughout your career have gotten athletes that
• 1:20:21
  are quote, unquote ready-made, meaning they're, you know, very
• 1:20:25
  high level when they get to you all the way down to walk on kids
• 1:20:28
  that you know, not a development needs to happen.
• 1:20:31
  Would you agree disagree expound on that most athletes?
• 1:20:36
  And I'm talking about, let's use the 80 20 percent percent rule,
• 1:20:39
  80% of athletes, actually would get better in their events if
• 1:20:43
  they got Got really good at the basics.
• 1:20:45
  Versus we tend to over. Try to find that one percent
• 1:20:49
  that that you know, the quote, unquote magic pill, that one
• 1:20:52
  workout, that one technique that we can get better at when in
• 1:20:56
  reality, they would get much better.
• 1:20:57
  If they were better at bounding or better at their general or
• 1:21:00
  better at their max speed for aspirin or things like that.
• 1:21:05
  No question, just a couple days ago.
• 1:21:10
  I think, you know, Altis and Daniel, he sends out
• 1:21:14
  newsletters, or whatever, and I didn't even read it.
• 1:21:17
  I just, but I just saw the title, it was specialized in
• 1:21:21
  generalization, right? And, and that and I and right
• 1:21:25
  away. I was just like, you know, my
• 1:21:29
  ears kind of perked up because I really think that Absolutely,
• 1:21:36
  that. That's where it's at.
• 1:21:38
  And I think that particularly in this day and age with, with kids
• 1:21:46
  and what their backgrounds are one because they are
• 1:21:50
  specializing earlier to because they don't have the same kind
• 1:21:54
  of, you know, childhood doing the kinds of things that we did
• 1:21:59
  when we were younger. I think, you know, there's a
• 1:22:04
  different mean, some people, they may have a great nervous
• 1:22:08
  system, whatever, but it, you know, their capacity to handle
• 1:22:13
  work is not great. Then there's only so far, they
• 1:22:18
  can go right and I just think I'm working with a guy right
• 1:22:23
  now. TJ Shankar, you know, who is
• 1:22:26
  really fine, high jumper won a couple NCAA championships in the
• 1:22:29
  high jump and he got really excited about And combined
• 1:22:33
  events, just a couple of years ago he did his fertility scored,
• 1:22:36
  75, 80, or whatever. The first decathlon of his life
• 1:22:40
  last year at the conference meet.
• 1:22:42
  And and he's he just just just this last weekend.
• 1:22:46
  He ran 47 5 and he's high jumping the best.
• 1:22:50
  He's ever jumped in his life right now.
• 1:22:52
  Wow, it's so. So here's a guy who's you know,
• 1:22:56
  post Collegiate athlete, who's working a full-time job into
• 1:23:00
  public accounting firm. and he's still getting better in his
• 1:23:06
  specialty and he's doing everything and I just I know
• 1:23:15
  you'll want to get into X's and O's but just it just been my
• 1:23:18
  experience with the athletes. I've worked with the most
• 1:23:22
  successful athletes I've worked with in any event that you want
• 1:23:26
  to say. Have been people who had, you
• 1:23:30
  know, part of the reason they got good is because they had
• 1:23:32
  long careers. Hmm.
• 1:23:34
  Part of the reason they had long careers is because they stayed
• 1:23:36
  healthy. We forget about that part.
• 1:23:38
  Yeah. And so, Yeah, I think it's
• 1:23:43
  critical. I love it.
• 1:23:45
  You know the record you were an athlete I think it's critical or
• 1:23:48
  the person or the first. Yeah so I got a lot of other
• 1:23:51
  questions topics. I want to get into but I just
• 1:23:54
  realized we kind of got up to head coach of Kansas State and
• 1:23:57
  then started going to these other topics.
• 1:23:58
  I don't want to dismiss the timeframe from becoming head
• 1:24:02
  coach of K-State today. Tell me how long you've been at
• 1:24:05
  Kansas State now. This is my 35th year, 35th year,
• 1:24:10
  not a lot of us can say we've been at the same job with.
• 1:24:15
  We're all my coaches are not but maybe specifically coaches, 30,
• 1:24:18
  plus years. And by the way, guilty, I coach
• 1:24:20
  for 10, and I was at five different places.
• 1:24:22
  So this is not me chastising. This is just, it was my reality
• 1:24:26
  at that point. What do you, what have you seen
• 1:24:30
  change over 35 years at Kansas State?
• 1:24:33
  And obviously, you know, we talked about some of the social
• 1:24:36
  changes. That happened with cell phones,
• 1:24:38
  social media, things like that. But how have you seen Kansas
• 1:24:41
  State grow in? Those 35 years, maybe
• 1:24:44
  specifically track and field but maybe as Athletics well I mean,
• 1:24:51
  we're a midst, probably one of the More successful years, that
• 1:24:58
  a athletic department is ever had right now, with with, with
• 1:25:04
  the football team, winning the Big 12 and yeah, cleaning up in
• 1:25:08
  a, you know, major bowl game and, and then basketball team
• 1:25:13
  just, you know, getting to the elite eight.
• 1:25:16
  And, you know, they were picked to be last in the conference
• 1:25:19
  this year in basketball. I didn't know that.
• 1:25:22
  Yeah, so so certainly the two Two high-profile Sports if you
• 1:25:28
  will or at an extremely high level right now and, and, you
• 1:25:33
  know, we all benefit from that, you know, clearly.
• 1:25:38
  But I think you know facilities at this University, you know
• 1:25:44
  what things look like today compared to, you know, 1988 when
• 1:25:49
  I fall of 88 was my first year here is it's even further than
• 1:25:55
  night and day. It's just, it's hard to believe.
• 1:26:00
  We're going to a heard field house, which is been there was
• 1:26:07
  built in 52 class is hosted, you know, many junior college
• 1:26:13
  national championships and actually, the only Big 12
• 1:26:18
  Championship there was ever held on a flat. 200 track was in a
• 1:26:21
  Harem, but it's closing down. We're literally with, we're
• 1:26:29
  literally about 20 days away from never being able to go in
• 1:26:33
  there again, at least from an athletic perspective.
• 1:26:38
  But the good thing that it's kind of sad for a guy like yeah
• 1:26:42
  sure but but but the good thing is that we build a new indoor
• 1:26:48
  football facility. And so the old one which sets
• 1:26:53
  just to the east of our outdoor track is going to be converted
• 1:26:57
  and we're going to put a 200-meter bank track in there.
• 1:27:00
  So, yeah. So we'll hopefully move into
• 1:27:02
  their all things going well, next December.
• 1:27:07
  Yeah. So yeah.
• 1:27:11
  So from a facility standpoint, it's amazing.
• 1:27:15
  You know where we are now. We just built, they're just in
• 1:27:19
  the finishing stages of the new volleyball facility and Olympic
• 1:27:22
  sport building. So our Olympic sports are going
• 1:27:24
  to for the first time have their own weight room and their own
• 1:27:28
  training room. I mean, it's amazing the
• 1:27:32
  basketball facilities of football facilities.
• 1:27:35
  Baseball soccer. Rowing everybody.
• 1:27:38
  I mean it's amazing. And so that's probably been
• 1:27:42
  Probably the biggest change. I've seen one of our former
• 1:27:48
  athletes who is from Hungry. Attila Shabbat ski was inducted,
• 1:27:53
  are athletic Hall of Fame and wasn't able to make it back to
• 1:27:56
  the ceremony, due to covid. And and so, we was able were
• 1:28:04
  able to get him in his wife, back to be recognized at a
• 1:28:07
  basketball game month or so ago and he was here in Late 90s.
• 1:28:14
  And he he was this isn't the same place.
• 1:28:19
  It was just like, he couldn't believe, you know, the changes
• 1:28:23
  here just in general the university.
• 1:28:25
  But, but certainly from a facility standpoint
• 1:28:28
  athletically, it's just amazing. And then the size of our
• 1:28:31
  athletic department. I mean, we're probably there's,
• 1:28:34
  there's two things, one, the size and in to the age average
• 1:28:39
  age, I'm the oldest person in our Apartment.
• 1:28:43
  I'm pretty sure and I'd say, the average age of our department is
• 1:28:49
  probably early 30s right now. And when I came here, it was
• 1:28:56
  probably late 40s interested. So it's significantly younger
• 1:29:02
  and probably in terms of employed employees of the
• 1:29:09
  athletic department. It's probably six seven times
• 1:29:11
  larger than when I came here. Wow.
• 1:29:13
  In 88 it's amazing. I love it.
• 1:29:17
  You know, we believe healthy things grow.
• 1:29:18
  So it's awesome to see facilities growing coaches,
• 1:29:21
  growing and athletic departments growing.
• 1:29:23
  That's awesome. Well Cliff, I have like a list
• 1:29:26
  of like four to five different topics.
• 1:29:28
  Do you. Okay if we just go absolutely,
• 1:29:31
  there's no order now, we've gone from, you know, you as a
• 1:29:34
  elementary school, kid up to today.
• 1:29:36
  Now we have no order on things. So, these are just things that,
• 1:29:39
  you know, knowing you as well as I do.
• 1:29:41
  No think that That you would have a unique perspective on.
• 1:29:44
  So I'm just going to kind of say the topic, I just want you to
• 1:29:47
  kind of give your thoughts and ideas and we Riff on it here a
• 1:29:50
  little bit. So the first one is women's
• 1:29:53
  decathlon. What are we doing?
• 1:29:54
  Are we going to do? This should have should have
• 1:29:55
  happened. I know you've been a believe.
• 1:29:57
  You've been a proponent know, you've had some people, some
• 1:30:01
  clues that I think is my first name.
• 1:30:02
  I think that might be the wrong name that sort of doing a
• 1:30:05
  decathlon, but talk to us about women's decathlon.
• 1:30:09
  Yes, I'm a big proponent of it. When it, you know as you know
• 1:30:15
  the iwf it number of years ago, it voted to switch over to the
• 1:30:21
  women's decathlon and and there was a timeline in place in which
• 1:30:29
  you know it you know it be at the world junior level here
• 1:30:33
  would be at the World Championships, here would be the
• 1:30:35
  Olympic Games here and then it So was that boat was rescinded
• 1:30:44
  and, and I can speak to exactly why it was rescinded.
• 1:30:49
  It was because of one a couple of of meats in in Europe, large
• 1:30:59
  combined event meets that the they felt like those.
• 1:31:05
  Those meet directors felt like It would it would detract and or
• 1:31:12
  their facility couldn't handle it.
• 1:31:18
  Both of which I think they were mistaken.
• 1:31:23
  And you mentioned one of the athletes Carolina.
• 1:31:27
  Clough, and Eunice Barber were the two big names if you will,
• 1:31:34
  in the heptathlon at that time units.
• 1:31:37
  Actually was transitioning to just doing individual events was
• 1:31:42
  but, you know, was probably still being Paid is though.
• 1:31:49
  She was going to continue to do the heptathlon.
• 1:31:53
  You know, she had no interest in doing that and then, and
• 1:31:56
  karolina did not have interest in doing it.
• 1:31:59
  It's, the killing is not the name.
• 1:32:00
  I was thinking of who was the athlete.
• 1:32:01
  You had, that was a really good helped athlete.
• 1:32:04
  Been she did some decathlon's ostrich scoota.
• 1:32:08
  That's who I was thinking of. That to me is for me, is one of
• 1:32:11
  like the pioneers of like going on and trying that the the
• 1:32:14
  actual decathlon. Yeah.
• 1:32:15
  That's who I was not closed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:32:17
  And And so, anyway, they, you know, they all lobbied against
• 1:32:22
  it and so they, you know, rescinded that vote and I think
• 1:32:26
  it was a big mistake personally. I think that, you know, the
• 1:32:34
  obviously they're different measures initially when the,
• 1:32:37
  when the women's decathlon was approved, you know, they flip
• 1:32:39
  the middle events of the first day and second day.
• 1:32:43
  And so when Austria, you know, she still has the world record
• 1:32:46
  in the women's decathlon. You know, when she set the world
• 1:32:49
  record, she jumped 183 in the high jump and that was the ninth
• 1:32:52
  event. So it's a little bit different.
• 1:32:56
  Yeah, obviously, right. So, you know, I don't think that
• 1:33:01
  was And we, you know, so more recently, when woman's
• 1:33:04
  decathlon's have been contested, they've been doing the men's
• 1:33:09
  order but in the beginning they said, no, you need to flip or
• 1:33:13
  whatever. And so, anyway, that's that's
• 1:33:15
  when she set the record. That's you know what it was.
• 1:33:18
  But but I think, if I think it would be a great event.
• 1:33:22
  I think that, you know, when we look historically, when we
• 1:33:27
  talked about the women's hammer, There were a lot of folks that
• 1:33:31
  like nah we don't want to do this.
• 1:33:33
  And now look at it, when we talked about the women's pole
• 1:33:36
  vault, all they can't do it. It won't be any good.
• 1:33:39
  Now, look at it. When you look at the
• 1:33:41
  Steeplechase, I remember the first USA championship.
• 1:33:44
  You know girls were stopping and climbing over the you know, the
• 1:33:48
  barriers, right and swimming through the the water Pitts.
• 1:33:53
  But now look at it and, you know, so I think it's silly to
• 1:33:59
  say that. They can't do it.
• 1:34:02
  I understand that there's always going to be some athletes that
• 1:34:07
  are that have trained for a significant period of time.
• 1:34:12
  And they're at the whatever they're at the top of the high
• 1:34:15
  school level top of the Collegiate level, Top of the
• 1:34:17
  World level and they don't want to see it change, but they were
• 1:34:21
  always going to have that. And, you know, at some point you
• 1:34:25
  just got to make the change and if you if you stair-step it in
• 1:34:31
  then you're going to have when it gets to the world
• 1:34:34
  championship lower Olympic level.
• 1:34:37
  I promise you, you're going to have a hell of them and So I
• 1:34:42
  would personally like to see it happen and I think it should
• 1:34:45
  happen. I think it would be a better
• 1:34:47
  test and I think to say that the gals can't do, it is just
• 1:34:51
  ridiculous. Yeah.
• 1:34:52
  You know, you mentioned those three events, the hammer, the
• 1:34:55
  steeple, and the pole vault for those individuals who have just
• 1:34:58
  gotten into track in the last five or ten years or those who
• 1:35:01
  have just got into coaching track and field, you know.
• 1:35:02
  Those are just normal events, we just have them.
• 1:35:05
  It was not that long ago. Effect was it 96 or 2000 was the
• 1:35:08
  perk first pole? Vault.
• 1:35:10
  Yeah, what so I mean that's The right after 96.
• 1:35:13
  Yeah that does is exhibition. Maybe in 96, okay.
• 1:35:17
  Yeah, that was right in that time frame.
• 1:35:19
  That was yesterday. What I mean.
• 1:35:21
  This is current history of those events that women weren't
• 1:35:25
  allowed weren't good enough. It was going to be detriment to
• 1:35:27
  their health, you know? It's not again, not that long
• 1:35:29
  ago, you go back and we didn't allow women to run over 800
• 1:35:32
  meters, because they would just die is what the prevailing
• 1:35:35
  thought was, which again. Now, we look back at it to your
• 1:35:37
  point about, look at what the women's pole, vault, and women's
• 1:35:39
  hammer and the Women Steeplechase is doing today and
• 1:35:44
  it's like, what were we doing man?
• 1:35:45
  Why didn't we start this 20 years before that the cow, how
• 1:35:47
  good would they be today? So it feels like the women's the
• 1:35:50
  cap on is, you know, maybe in 10, 15 years.
• 1:35:53
  Hopefully sooner than that we'll be talking like why did we fight
• 1:35:56
  this? But what were we doing in 2020
• 1:35:58
  that we could have just gone ahead and made this decision to
• 1:36:01
  move forward and let them compete in the exact same event
• 1:36:03
  that we allow the men to compete.
• 1:36:05
  So it feels like it's one of those things that's just when is
• 1:36:07
  it gonna happen, right? Yeah.
• 1:36:10
  I hope so. I hope it's in my lifetime that
• 1:36:14
  I have an opportunity to watch him do it, because I think it's
• 1:36:18
  a, I think it's a great test and I in and I think the women would
• 1:36:23
  do just fine. So the next topic and I don't
• 1:36:26
  know that I've ever actually heard you speak on this but to
• 1:36:28
  me, it's kind of that same vein, women's high hurdles and this
• 1:36:33
  topic comes up every few years and kind of becomes hot in the
• 1:36:35
  last year or two. It started to make its rounds
• 1:36:38
  because of how fast the women's 100 hurdles have become
• 1:36:41
  collegially. Professionally.
• 1:36:43
  Should we move those to 36 inches?
• 1:36:49
  I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it, I think.
• 1:36:56
  Yeah when you when you look at just how fast they're running
• 1:37:01
  and you know in the hurdle folks know that you know a lot of
• 1:37:06
  women don't really have to hurdle, you know they're just
• 1:37:10
  sprinting and they're just stepping over more and and it's
• 1:37:16
  you know I mean it's great. It's Wonderful.
• 1:37:19
  And, you know, because of the You know, assuming that we're
• 1:37:25
  not going to change you know, distance between hurdles and
• 1:37:29
  that kind of thing. I mean it's a it is what it is.
• 1:37:32
  Everybody has to adapt to those parameters but but I think it I
• 1:37:39
  would like to see it raised. Yes, I would.
• 1:37:41
  I think it would be a true or test.
• 1:37:46
  I've been a proponent for a while and yet I still remember
• 1:37:49
  back in 98, when I was coaching at Troy and I wanted to like
• 1:37:52
  help Bring data more to it. So I would have our high
• 1:37:56
  hurdlers who certainly weren't vent.
• 1:37:58
  They were not K-State caliber. High hurdler is okay.
• 1:38:01
  But we knew what their PR is were what their split times
• 1:38:03
  were, and we would also have them do it over 36, to start
• 1:38:06
  collecting data. But I did hear, and I think, I
• 1:38:09
  think this was Chuck, Charles Ryan over at San Jose State.
• 1:38:12
  Now, I think he's the one that said it.
• 1:38:15
  So I may be attributed to the wrong person but I think the
• 1:38:17
  ones he said that kind of made me pause and think about my like
• 1:38:20
  I think it's rude to 36 and he was like, why?
• 1:38:23
  Is it have to be the same event? It doesn't have to be the same
• 1:38:25
  event and when we talk about the same event meeting, like how
• 1:38:27
  much the center of mass raises for the men versus women?
• 1:38:30
  It's like, why does it have to be the same?
• 1:38:32
  It's like, well, you know, that's a good point to why can't
• 1:38:34
  it just be its own event? That, that's what we do on the
• 1:38:36
  women's side. So I'm kind of torn now.
• 1:38:38
  But that was all like I said, I was interested in hearing your
• 1:38:40
  side and I thought you'd be a proponent of it.
• 1:38:43
  Yeah. I and I do, and I don't disagree
• 1:38:46
  with with that sentiment either. I mean, you know, I can, I can
• 1:38:50
  live with that too, but I just, I You know, it's like the, it's
• 1:38:54
  like the weight of the implements for the gals, you
• 1:38:58
  know? I mean, you know what, why are
• 1:39:01
  the gals at the world class level throwing the same way?
• 1:39:04
  It is, I'm glad you brought that up because that's a good topic
• 1:39:07
  to the high school to college transition and move on.
• 1:39:09
  Yeah, for women's. Yeah, I think I don't know.
• 1:39:13
  I think that again, I think it's, you know, well, the gals
• 1:39:17
  can't handle it but, you know, that's silly and so I don't
• 1:39:24
  know, that's what it certainly. Feels like TV, two things can
• 1:39:28
  evolve in. It's okay, that's what it feels
• 1:39:32
  like to me too. It's the males who have run the
• 1:39:35
  sport for, you know, going to quote forever that the women
• 1:39:38
  just can't do it. That's what it feels like.
• 1:39:40
  That's the cinema. It's like, no, we can't
• 1:39:41
  challenge them. They'll shirk away.
• 1:39:43
  It won't be as good. And it's like, man, I guess what
• 1:39:44
  they're human. Like we are, they'll adapt.
• 1:39:47
  They'll figure out that that the heavier discus or the higher
• 1:39:50
  hurdles, they'll figure it out and look.
• 1:39:52
  Again, we have history. What they have figured out
• 1:39:54
  really high-level stuff here. So you have gals dunking now and
• 1:39:59
  back in game. That's right.
• 1:40:01
  Yeah. That was unheard of.
• 1:40:04
  Yeah. You know, he certainly 20 years
• 1:40:07
  ago, it was unheard of but you know but now it's a lot of gals
• 1:40:13
  just different just different is that correct?
• 1:40:16
  Okay. Next topic as we start wrapping
• 1:40:17
  up here so you are obviously really big on staff development
• 1:40:23
  so not just Hiring a plug-in play coach on your staff.
• 1:40:29
  Like there's still, you're going to develop if you're part of a
• 1:40:32
  revolto staff as a complete coach in some form or fashion,
• 1:40:36
  my understanding is there's a new rule coming this Summer
• 1:40:40
  that. And now, instead of six
• 1:40:42
  full-time coaches, we can go to a Max of 12.
• 1:40:46
  How do you foresee? Not necessarily?
• 1:40:48
  You don't necessarily have to speak on what Kansas States is
• 1:40:52
  going to do. But what do you do?
• 1:40:56
  You see this as a good thing of development of track and field
• 1:40:58
  coach has, or is this a watering down?
• 1:41:01
  And they should just bga's first.
• 1:41:03
  What do you think about this new rule of more full-time coaches
• 1:41:06
  for track? Well, I think I think the idea
• 1:41:09
  of providing more opportunity is is wonderful.
• 1:41:14
  I don't know that that's the motivation for doing what we're
• 1:41:17
  doing think it is, but but the idea that we're providing, more
• 1:41:21
  opportunity is great. You know, like you said, when I
• 1:41:26
  was at, KU was seven gaas and that was just men's program, you
• 1:41:31
  know? They just that was just three
• 1:41:32
  full-time coaches. You had seven, gaas just on the
• 1:41:35
  men's side. Oh yes.
• 1:41:38
  Yeah. And so so that gave Al Schmidt,
• 1:41:44
  you know, Al Schmidt left. The head, head job to come be a
• 1:41:48
  G8. K you And so I think what more
• 1:41:54
  needs to be said, right? You know having those
• 1:41:57
  opportunities is a valuable thing and in so you know, so
• 1:42:06
  whether whether we're allowing, you know, more GA positions or
• 1:42:13
  whatever, you know, I think that's good because I think it
• 1:42:16
  were were exposing people. Like I said, Said, there's no
• 1:42:21
  way I would be sitting here today talking to you if it
• 1:42:24
  wasn't for the time, I spent with Coach Timmons and Coach pep
• 1:42:27
  and stay in the ruski and so forth when I was at University
• 1:42:31
  of Kansas, there's no way. It's just that simple and in and
• 1:42:37
  and I got that opportunity is because of a grad assistant
• 1:42:40
  position and so so I think providing more opportunities is
• 1:42:45
  a good thing. Yeah.
• 1:42:48
  How it's going to be managed and the fact that it's coming up Out
• 1:42:51
  the way it's coming about, you know, wish it was different but
• 1:42:56
  but I think providing the those opportunities will be, will be
• 1:42:59
  wonderful. Yeah.
• 1:43:01
  And hopefully people will use these opportunities to grow
• 1:43:13
  There's these staff people and not just have them, be full-time
• 1:43:16
  recruiters, or, you know what it is?
• 1:43:19
  That's what will happen. Yeah.
• 1:43:21
  I agree more opportunities. I love the idea that someone who
• 1:43:25
  wouldn't have a shot to go, be an assistant coach on Bob,
• 1:43:28
  Raymond staff. Now, maybe this is an
• 1:43:30
  opportunity for them. Like I think about, like
• 1:43:31
  learning from people like that learning for people like you
• 1:43:33
  etcetera. I think that is wonderful, not
• 1:43:35
  just for our Collegiate track and field because I believe
• 1:43:38
  those people can go and be in that profession as the 10th
• 1:43:43
  assistant coach at such-and-such University for a year or two,
• 1:43:45
  and then go back and coached high school at a really high
• 1:43:48
  level from all the things they've learned.
• 1:43:49
  So, I love that, my fear is, you know, I don't think as a body
• 1:43:54
  where we're paying our coaches are track coaches specifically
• 1:43:57
  enough. So, my fear is that this becomes
• 1:44:00
  more 15,000, 20,000 dollar, annual salaries, and it's, you
• 1:44:05
  know, I just think there's a disaster for that.
• 1:44:07
  As far as, you know, taking care of yourself, your family, your
• 1:44:10
  future family, things like that. So that's my only.
• 1:44:12
  Your of that is, I just hope that there is a commiserate
• 1:44:16
  salary, increase for our schools, that decide to hire the
• 1:44:18
  7th 8th, 9th 12th, assistant coach.
• 1:44:23
  Well, and I'm in, I'm sure some schools will be able to do that,
• 1:44:27
  but the problem is there going to be a lot of schools that
• 1:44:30
  won't be able to discern. And but but still just having
• 1:44:35
  that opportunity is huge. I think, you know, there's so
• 1:44:38
  many You know, again, when you look at a lot of the most
• 1:44:43
  successful coaches, a lot of them were not necessarily great
• 1:44:47
  athletes. A lot of them as you mentioned
• 1:44:49
  were, you know, it come from the high school level.
• 1:44:53
  A lot of them had spent, you know, a couple of years is a ga
• 1:44:56
  or a volunteer assistant or, you know, whatever that's just how
• 1:45:00
  they started and in every single one of them.
• 1:45:05
  I've never spoke with anybody. Obviously, we all would have
• 1:45:09
  liked to have, maybe gotten a little more money during that
• 1:45:12
  timeframe, but but I haven't ever spoken.
• 1:45:15
  Anyone that didn't think that those years in those positions,
• 1:45:22
  wasn't a Difference Maker in their career, Right?
• 1:45:27
  So I love it. Part of the growth process, all
• 1:45:30
  right? Cliff first of all, thank you
• 1:45:33
  again your time. You know, I'm always amazed at
• 1:45:35
  first of all that anybody gives me the time of day to come on to
• 1:45:38
  this podcast. I'm just so humbled for that
• 1:45:41
  when you do it during track season because you know, I've
• 1:45:43
  been there. So I know every minute is booked
• 1:45:47
  up. So I'm just so thankful for your
• 1:45:48
  time. I am trying to I'm going to I'm
• 1:45:52
  going to we're going to do something on the Fly here.
• 1:45:53
  I want to unveil Something for the podcast, we kind of
• 1:45:57
  unveiled. This a little bit at us tfcc a
• 1:45:59
  we had in a live event there and everybody who came in for the
• 1:46:03
  live interview on YouTube. Anybody that was a gill podcast
• 1:46:07
  Alum, I allowed them to flip the script and ask me one question
• 1:46:10
  so I'm the host I get to just sit here and pepper you with the
• 1:46:12
  questions. You got to think about the right
• 1:46:14
  answers and how to say them, how to convey your thoughts.
• 1:46:16
  So I'm going to convey this. You have no idea that we're
• 1:46:18
  doing this. You're going to, I'm going to
• 1:46:20
  put you on the spot here. You get to ask either me or the
• 1:46:24
  audience. So everybody that listens one
• 1:46:27
  question. So what question would that be?
• 1:46:30
  I get, I know I'm putting you on the spot.
• 1:46:31
  Someone feel a little air while you think about that.
• 1:46:33
  You can either ask me you know, when my background my expertise
• 1:46:36
  of coaching and and here it guilt that acts as a
• 1:46:38
  manufacturer or you've got thousands of people that listen
• 1:46:41
  through all levels. Maybe you have just a general
• 1:46:43
  question for them as well. What do you think?
• 1:46:46
  Yeah, I think the question I would have for you but but I
• 1:46:49
  also would like other folks to think about this is What
• 1:46:55
  concerns you about the things that are happening in
• 1:47:01
  Collegiate, Athletics today? You know, what are, what are
• 1:47:05
  your concerns? And how do you think this will
• 1:47:08
  impact our sport going forward? All right, you heard his
• 1:47:11
  question. He asked me and you so I want
• 1:47:13
  you to I don't I've never caught cliff on social media on
• 1:47:17
  Twitter. So maybe you tweet too.
• 1:47:19
  Yeah, he's shaking his head. He either he isn't or he is the
• 1:47:23
  most subtweet. However, I've never just been
• 1:47:25
  able to find them, so if you tweet me at my Cunningham, I'd
• 1:47:28
  love to know your answer to that question.
• 1:47:30
  I'm going to answer that question for us is Gilles
• 1:47:33
  headaches to Cliff. That's a really good question.
• 1:47:35
  You know, one of our largest larger concerns about how the
• 1:47:39
  landscape is changing within IL. We're very supportive of
• 1:47:43
  athletes, obviously, we're coached driven, which means we,
• 1:47:45
  you know, we affect athletes and, you know, I do, I
• 1:47:48
  personally don't have a problem with a kid getting paid, you
• 1:47:51
  know, as much money, especially in the power 5 side, that comes
• 1:47:54
  through TV. Contracts and stuff like that.
• 1:47:55
  I have no problem with that. A concern that we do have with
• 1:47:59
  NI Ells is money. Being funneled used to be money,
• 1:48:03
  would be funneled to the university and a new track would
• 1:48:06
  be built or new. You know.
• 1:48:07
  We also do basketball volleyball.
• 1:48:08
  Those facilities would be built and that's great for us, is a
• 1:48:11
  sports manufacturer. Well, now that alums and, and
• 1:48:15
  fans can now funnel money, straight to the athletes.
• 1:48:17
  There is a concern does their become less money to the words,
• 1:48:21
  the university for facility growth and Development and that
• 1:48:25
  would be, that would be detrimental to our business.
• 1:48:27
  If there's less tracks less Fields, you know, outdoor field,
• 1:48:32
  things like that. Things that we manufacture for
• 1:48:33
  if those shrink because the money's going straight to I just
• 1:48:37
  saw word. LeBron James kid, who still in
• 1:48:39
  high school is making seven million a year through n IL.
• 1:48:42
  And on one hand, I bless that's like an old man.
• 1:48:44
  That's great. Someone sees value for marketing
• 1:48:47
  for you. I love that guy.
• 1:48:49
  Go get that money. Kid makes it yourself up which
• 1:48:52
  he probably already set up because LeBron, but whatever,
• 1:48:54
  you know, Set yourself up for the future, that's amazing.
• 1:48:56
  But I'm like, oh man, if LeBron would have went to Ohio state,
• 1:48:59
  would someone have donated 2 million to Ohio state for a new
• 1:49:03
  basketball, upgrade and send it to the bronze kid, and that
• 1:49:07
  would help us as a manufacturer. So, that's a, that's a concern
• 1:49:10
  for, for me, and us here at Gulf buttocks is, you know, there's
• 1:49:13
  only so much money in the world, and obviously there's a lot for
• 1:49:15
  sports. But if now, I'll call it a big
• 1:49:18
  percentage goes straight to athletes does that hurt facility
• 1:49:21
  development which is pretty vital for us here, right?
• 1:49:24
  Right. So that's my answer.
• 1:49:25
  Thank you for being on the fly with that, man.
• 1:49:27
  I appreciate that. You're even at this age and
• 1:49:29
  Stage, man, you're quick on your feet, I love that.
• 1:49:31
  So, I appreciate that. But again, he has to you as
• 1:49:33
  well, audience. So if you have an answer, if
• 1:49:34
  you're watching on YouTube, put in the comments below or tweet
• 1:49:37
  at me and I'll make sure he's going to get a report.
• 1:49:40
  So if you don't answer, he's not going to get any report.
• 1:49:42
  But that's a great question. I appreciate that on the Fly
• 1:49:45
  there. Cliff.
• 1:49:46
  Thank you again, so much, man. I'm just so thankful for your
• 1:49:48
  time. So humbled you a join us.
• 1:49:50
  And just so grateful for your journey, man, I love the All
• 1:49:54
  that mentors like a bob and then, you know, standard for
• 1:49:57
  skin. All those guys there man.
• 1:50:00
  Gary Pepin, like, Legends in this sport that poured into you
• 1:50:03
  that have helped create that. You are a legend in this sport
• 1:50:06
  in this profession at least, to me, I don't know anybody else.
• 1:50:09
  But for me, you're at least a legend my friend.
• 1:50:11
  So I'm just so grateful to hear that journey and then, just a
• 1:50:14
  mince value that you bring, I love that.
• 1:50:17
  You still have an interest in the law and history side of it.
• 1:50:20
  So I know your quote-unquote behind the scenes, helping
• 1:50:23
  effect rules changes, And the development of track and field
• 1:50:26
  as it moves along in the future, we need that.
• 1:50:28
  You know, if we don't have a captain help steer the ship the
• 1:50:31
  ship wreck. So I'm just so thankful, you're
• 1:50:33
  part of that, that captainship for our sport.
• 1:50:35
  So thank you so much glyph. Well, thank you, Mike.
• 1:50:38
  I enjoyed visiting with you and hopefully this is helpful.
• 1:50:42
  No, it is. I bet you, I'll be surprised
• 1:50:44
  that we don't get a lot of answers for your questions.
• 1:50:47
  Well, thanks for joining us, Cliff.
• 1:50:48
  Thanks for you guys being here again.
• 1:50:50
  Hit me up on social media. Let me know your answer to
• 1:50:52
  Cliffs questions. What concerns you about College
• 1:50:55
  athletics today in the way things are changing.
• 1:50:57
  What concerns do you have? And how that might affect our
• 1:51:00
  sport? Specifically our sport of track
• 1:51:01
  and field. So join us next week.
• 1:51:03
  We'll do it all over again. And appreciate you guys being
• 1:51:05
  here. Thanks, everybody.