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Discovering Bitcoin with Mark Stephany · Discovering Bitcoin

0:01
Yeah, I see. The world through an entirely
0:03
different lens. It doesn't just give you
0:06
confidence, but it gives you hope.
0:11
Take like we're. Squandering our energy, our life
0:13
force. So Bitcoin is changing that.
0:16
For me it's like. It's healing energy.
0:20
It gives you a kind of of a stand feeling, right?
0:27
Grab a. Holder, deep and deep and deep
0:29
in the immortal words of the doors, The time to hesitate us
0:34
through discovery.
1:01
Mark, how are you mate? I'm doing very well, thank you.
1:04
I just got back from a short weekend trip up to northern
1:09
Minnesota, which for I'm judging from the sound of it, you're not
1:12
probably familiar with very wooded, beautiful area on the
1:15
edge of Lake Superior. A good place to tune out and
1:21
enjoy the beautiful, beautiful weather.
1:24
One of my favorite things to do up there is try to jump in the
1:26
lake, which is in the low 50°. And so it's, it's shocking every
1:32
time you do it. It's one of my favorite things
1:34
to, to kind of reset, reset myself, reset my mind.
1:37
And so it's been a relaxing Monday for me as I get ready for
1:42
work week. Yeah, there's something about
1:46
jumping into super cold water. Obviously people do the whatever
1:52
it is, the ice buckets and things like that, but you can't
1:56
really beat it when it's it's a natural environment like like
1:59
the Lake Superior. You mentioned there's a few
2:02
rivers around these parts that have a similar kind of effect,
2:07
which is, which is always nice. It sort of resets the system.
2:14
Yeah. But looking forward to our
2:15
conversation. So I appreciate you reaching
2:20
out. I appreciate the Cosmo for
2:23
making the introduction. Yes, of course, Mr. Crickster,
2:27
he's a legend amongst men. Yes, he's a, he's a, he's a,
2:32
he's a, he's one of the real ones out there.
2:34
No doubt. No doubt.
2:36
That's the truth. Look, I'm looking forward to
2:39
this conversation too. I think there's quite a lot of
2:40
overlap with regards to the way we've been thinking about things
2:45
potentially, specifically the ethics of immutability, which is
2:51
a essay we published back in August, kind of similar time
2:56
actually, to the spiral of value.
2:59
But we're not with the spiral of sovereignty.
3:01
I keep calling it the spiral of value.
3:02
That's the draft anyway. We're not here to talk about
3:07
that. We want to talk about you.
3:09
And I want to thank you for taking the time to jump on the
3:12
pod as well. Spend some scarce time find out
3:14
energy telling us the tale of discovering Bitcoin.
3:17
So without further ado, how did you discover Bitcoin?
3:24
January 1st, 2017 I was. I thought you'd.
3:28
Better say 2009 then. Yeah, right.
3:32
Exactly. Surprise, I was admittedly
3:37
sending lying to Pine on a a couch in my friend's parents
3:42
house in Illinois outside of Chicago, a bit hungover.
3:47
And we were waiting for our deep dish pizza to arrive to help
3:53
allay our headaches. And I grabbed a magazine, start
3:58
flipping through it and there's an article on blockchain
4:00
technology. And I thought to myself, wow,
4:02
this could have some potential applications and use cases for
4:07
healthcare. And having felt like I missed
4:11
the boat on engaging with the Internet era, you know, growing
4:16
up in the early 80, being born in the early 80s, but feeling
4:20
like I missed that boat, I immediately sensed that there
4:23
was something to this and then immediately immersed myself in
4:27
trying to understand it. But both were in technological
4:30
level. But then obviously it was the
4:32
ICO craze and I got sucked up in that, but spent the the entirety
4:38
of the year trying to learn more about it.
4:41
You know, at that time, like most people, you thought it was
4:43
going to fix everything. And it was, you know, a panacea
4:46
for every anything from dentistry to your pets do
4:51
anything else like that. And so, you know, you get spit
4:55
out the other end of 2018. And I'm obviously proud of
5:02
myself for circling back and, and coming to the understanding
5:05
that there was something there that Bitcoin was still not dead.
5:08
You know, if I was going to re engage with this ecosystem, I
5:11
better do it wisely. And I don't know if it was TG or
5:15
tours writing or combination thereof, where they, you know,
5:20
really highlighted better understanding the history of
5:23
money. And so I thought I'd better
5:25
start there. And I didn't read a lot of
5:28
Bitcoin books at first. I I read, you know, most of that
5:32
was most impressionable to me was, you know, Ferguson.
5:35
So they sent a must, they sent a money and you know, Bitcoin
5:41
aside, like the history was just so incredibly fascinating as it
5:44
draws on so many elements of academia and philosophy and
5:51
sociology. So I was I was hooked and but it
5:55
wasn't until thousand 1920 when a paper was released regarding
6:09
how Bitcoin fit with progressive values that I kind of re engaged
6:14
or further engaged with Bitcoin from a non monetary asset
6:19
perspective. So I wasn't I was kind of I felt
6:22
like floating along in the space for some time.
6:26
But then Nicole Dobrow released this article that aligned with I
6:31
think my values at the at the time, which are definitely more
6:35
were, are more left-leaning. That's another topic for
6:38
discussion. And it was it was that that
6:44
really took my engagement with Bitcoin in the space to another
6:48
level. And so several of us were had
6:50
our own little Twitter group discussing, you know, what we
6:54
thought is the direct application of Bitcoin to
6:58
progressive values. And clearly that was not the the
7:03
narrative within the Twitter space, let alone, you know,
7:06
broader media. And so we felt like it was
7:12
necessary to push back against the libertarian project focus
7:18
that again, mainstream media had against Bitcoin.
7:20
And that here was this thing that really fulfilled what as
7:25
progressives felt was really what we were trying to achieve.
7:29
And that was to provide better financial access to the those
7:36
that need it most. Those are that have historically
7:37
been marginalized. Here's this tool that doesn't
7:40
care what your credit score is, color your skin, you know,
7:43
whether or not you just got to jail or any of those things.
7:46
Everybody has equal access to it.
7:48
And so I started the Progressive Bitcoiner podcast in December of
7:50
2021. By that time and did that for
7:56
about a year, I gave it up, gave it over to Trey Walsh who then
8:01
ran with it for about a year and a half.
8:03
And then over the past 12 plus months he turned it into a
8:06
5O1C3, invited me to be the president of the board for that.
8:12
And so right now, our goal is to be a source of education for
8:19
individuals to better understand Bitcoin as a tool of empowerment
8:22
and again, financial inclusion for those historically
8:26
marginalized communities. And we also in light of
8:30
political environment that we're in right now in America, is to
8:34
push back against the narrative that Bitcoin is just a, a tool
8:37
for Trump, obviously that there could be anything further from
8:41
the truth of that. And so, but we, we need to, we
8:46
feel it's incumbent upon us to really do the best we can to
8:51
push back against that. And so that involves not only
8:53
grassroots efforts and education from publishing standpoint, but
8:56
also trying to get ourselves to DC.
8:58
We went to the BPI Summit, you know, in May of this year.
9:02
And so we're, we're actively seeking funding for that.
9:05
And that's where that's my Bitcoin journey and that's where
9:08
I'm most engaged at this point within this ecosystem.
9:12
That is an enormous hero's journey and an arc, if you will,
9:19
from go to woe. I I gotta say I'm impressed at
9:23
your cognitive ability to pick up a magazine and read about
9:28
blockchain while being hungover. That's that's something that's
9:34
that's like the last thing I would want to do.
9:40
It was it was the only distraction from the headache.
9:42
So I I took it. Fair play.
9:46
But it's, it's, it's events like that, you know, in your life
9:49
where you're thinking, I'd never picked up that magazine if I'd
9:52
never been there in that moment, how different things could be.
9:55
And so I'm just grateful that that I was, you know, and I, I
10:00
want to honor that. I don't believe in faith, but I
10:05
want to honor that serendipity that that moment in my life that
10:09
gave me something this special. And so I again feel it's
10:12
incumbent upon me to act on that.
10:14
Serendipity is the right word. Absolutely.
10:18
There is what's I think more impressive as well as was that
10:23
your first touch point? Yes, absolutely.
10:27
I remember hearing the word Bitcoin in a car on NPR two
10:32
years before that, but otherwise I've not registered anything.
10:35
Yeah, it just didn't it it, it sort of the seed maybe
10:39
subconsciously was planted back then and then it was just the
10:43
right time, right place, Gwyneth Paltrow sliding doors type thing
10:47
where you just have to pick up that that article, which is
10:52
extraordinary. You mentioned that this this
10:58
notion of Bitcoin fixes this Bitcoin is the panacea for
11:02
everything. It's interesting when you do
11:05
apply that lens to like when you when you apply Bitcoin to a
11:12
thing, a subject, topic, anything really, it does at
11:17
least amplify it somehow. And that can be, and generally
11:22
leading towards the good is, has been my experience, but it
11:26
certainly doesn't fix everything on its own, as you point out in
11:31
your ethics of immutability article or essay, rather that
11:35
it's, it requires personal responsibility and
11:39
participation. It requires the individual to
11:43
opt in and to actually interact and reflect back like a mirror
11:49
or something or a lens, you know, clarifying every action
11:54
when you, when you pass through it.
11:57
And it is, it is very unique in that respect, which I, I find
12:03
completely fascinating actually, because it's a as as you even
12:07
say, it's a neutral protocol for transmitting value across space
12:10
and time. You know, I can send you money
12:13
now and that's awesome. And you can send me money now if
12:15
you want. And that's awesome.
12:17
But it does this other weird metaphysical thing to
12:21
individuals. And yeah, I think you're, you're
12:25
hitting on a, on a, on a similar kind of line of thinking that I
12:29
have. The progressive Bitcoin efforts
12:34
is really helpful as well. I mean, you talked about
12:39
left-leaning at the time. Would you say that you've
12:44
shifted somewhat or has the left shifted?
12:47
Like this is that weird thing? There's there's a as a, a meme,
12:50
I think, or maybe it was a cartoon of an individual
12:53
standing, you know, on the screen in, in the the box.
12:59
And he was kind of identifying himself as, you know, centre
13:02
left, say, and then the left moves over a little bit further
13:05
left and he's like, oh God, I'm not centre right now.
13:09
And then the left moves over a little bit further left.
13:11
He's like, holy shit. I'm apparently an extremist.
13:15
Yeah. And, you know, that's kind of
13:17
been my, my experience anyway the last few years.
13:22
I'm I'm curious to learn about yours.
13:26
Well, again, I'm grateful for Bitcoin in the sense that it's
13:29
opened my mind to other perspectives.
13:35
And what I mean by that is when you, when you take on the
13:42
responsibility, you're trying to understand somebody else's
13:44
viewpoint, or in this case a different technology that is
13:47
initially ostracized is is not mainstream.
13:52
You're you're that going against the grain cannot but challenge
13:57
your own belief system. And and so it it allows you to
14:03
extend yourself into other into uncomfortable areas, which then,
14:07
you know, once you start that, it's hard to to stop it.
14:11
And, you know, I grew up as a Democrat.
14:14
My parents were Democrats and my father would shake his first at
14:18
the TV every night when some when a Republican said something
14:21
that that ticked him off. And it's like I reflect on that
14:25
and think, what a waste of time and energy, you know, would you,
14:31
you, you did that for 40 years of my life.
14:34
And here we are sitting through, you know, 2 terms of Trump.
14:37
So what, what to what, what good did that do you right.
14:42
And so I try to, I don't want to emulate that.
14:45
I want to, I want to be more pragmatic.
14:47
I don't, admittedly, I try to, I, I don't want to get involved
14:51
in politics because in my opinion, it becomes, it's, it's
14:56
an act of utility. I feel like I have, I have a
14:58
greater impact doing other things and, and one of the
15:01
reasons why I find Bitcoin so important is because I think
15:03
it's going to do a hell block greater good than my, my vote.
15:10
And so my, these days when people ask me like what my
15:14
political stance is, it's like, give me an issue and then I'll
15:19
tell you what my thoughts are on the matter.
15:22
And in addition to, if I don't have enough information, I'm
15:28
going to tell you that I can't give you an educated opinion on
15:32
the matter. Growing older has given me that
15:37
opportunity to step back and be like be comfortable with not
15:41
having an opinion saying I don't know, I need more information.
15:45
And sometimes that that really takes people off because they
15:48
want that objective, like off the cuff this or reaction.
15:54
And I don't, I'm not going to give that to you because it does
15:58
a disservice to the people whose issue, this life, an issue whose
16:03
lives it really matters too, right?
16:06
They don't need some guy who doesn't know what he's talking
16:07
about riff on something. So those are my political views.
16:12
Tell me, tell me what the issue is.
16:14
And we'll figure out a way to, you know, come to a come to a
16:18
conclusion or consensus. And maybe I don't, maybe I don't
16:21
establish one by the end of our conversation.
16:22
And I think that's OK. It should be OK.
16:25
It should be the standard. It should be the standard from
16:27
which everyone works from. And yet, as you say, the, the,
16:30
the game is to elicit outrage or, yeah, unsolicited opinions.
16:37
It is remarkable how and, and not to sort of, I mean, I, I
16:42
have a similar experience with, I guess some family members in,
16:47
in, in my family where after so long, they're still railing
16:53
against the same thing on the TV at the TV at night.
16:56
And I kind of sit there sometimes when, when we're
16:59
together and just in just in awe of the persistence and
17:04
commitment, but just the sheer ignorance as well.
17:07
That's like this is achieved 0 like a net zero in the, in the
17:13
40 or so years that you've been doing this.
17:17
And and it's it's still not going to make a hell of a
17:20
difference, like at all at all. Just just engaging in like being
17:29
on Twitter is one of the worst things I think you can do as a
17:32
human being. Just in particularly if you, I
17:34
mean you, you could curate your following list, of course, but
17:38
there, there are certain people in there just that they're
17:41
constantly bringing up politics and we've got to solve it.
17:44
We've got to solve it with politics.
17:45
And it's it's just a. It's a completely redundant
17:49
thing to say. Well, that's the, that was the
17:53
issue that we ran into when we started the progressive
17:56
Bitcoiner and we're putting out our ideas out there.
17:59
We got a lot of people from the left saying, you know, that's
18:03
ridiculous. We just, we need to enact this
18:06
new law. We need to, we need to restrict
18:09
those people, those voices. It was still very much central
18:14
top centralized means of imposition and or they had some
18:25
utopian fantasy for how everybody was going to get along
18:29
and adopt their their belief system, adopt their way of
18:35
viewing the world, which sounded wonderful.
18:38
Like I remember reading people's essays on on, you know, the way
18:41
we should structure markets and politics.
18:44
And it's like that is that is beautiful.
18:47
But you cannot convince people to adopt your viewpoints.
18:56
You cannot expect that. And if that's your baseline
18:58
level of interacting with the world, like, I'm sorry, it's
19:02
you're, you're only going to find yourself in an echo chamber
19:06
and reinforce the current situation.
19:09
And again, that's why I get back to Bitcoin.
19:11
It's like anybody, whoever engages with it can do so on
19:15
their own terms. And to me, I find that
19:20
incredibly unifying, right? It's it's like you're rooting
19:25
for the same soccer team. And I'm here in Minnesota and
19:30
you know, I can go to Italy. And if you're a fan of the same
19:35
soccer team, like we have that immediate connection.
19:38
And so in my, in my opinion, Bitcoin is the only thing that
19:41
has that unifying force in contemporary society.
19:48
And that's, that's why I, I do what I do is because I have this
19:51
pipe dream that it could potentially bring a world
19:57
together that at this point in time is obviously incredibly.
20:01
Divisive. Divisive, fractured, spiraling,
20:06
or rather gyreing out of control.
20:10
You get the reference. Yeah, I mean this, this notion
20:15
of my idea is better. And so if everyone would only
20:19
just adopt this idea, and if you could, even if they articulate
20:22
it well and it's very clear and persuasive, getting like
20:28
effectively what amounts to coercing somebody to adopt your
20:33
idea, even if expecting someone to adopt your idea because
20:41
you've been so persuasive, it still is not going to work it.
20:44
It completely negates human like subjective value and human
20:50
action. Why do we why do we think we can
20:51
do that at scale when you can't convince your partner to do
20:55
that? You can't convince your kids to
20:57
do that. Like it's hard enough at work,
20:59
let alone at, you know, nation state level.
21:01
And yet somehow we feel like if we shake our fists hard enough
21:06
or get this right law passed, you know, everyone's going to
21:09
feel the same way we do. And obviously I couldn't
21:14
disagree with that more. And so again, again, the I love
21:19
the fact that I can disagree with somebody and still engage
21:22
with them in terms of Bitcoin, I I admittedly, when I was, you
21:28
know, pretty Bitcoin, I was AI think pretty, you know, more
21:36
self-serving, more egotistical in this no righteous.
21:42
I was more righteous in my beliefs, political beliefs then
21:49
I feel like I am now. Bitcoin made me more empathetic
21:54
because I can understand, I understand world views now much
22:00
better than I did then. I thought I understood, but
22:03
again, it was a lot more. And along along the lines of I,
22:10
I, I felt like my, my empathy went so far as unless you
22:14
disagreed with me, unless you were, you know, Republican or
22:17
unless you vote for Trump, like it, it had that limitation.
22:20
Whereas now I feel like that guardrail is off.
22:26
It's like can be open to any, you know, any, any discussions
22:30
going forward as long as you believe in freedom, money
22:34
together. Well, that's the thing that
22:36
cohes and creates that coherence at scale effectively, as you
22:41
said, similar to football team like you can you can follow, you
22:44
know, a team in the MLSI don't know what does Minnesota have a
22:47
team? I've got no idea.
22:50
And as we do, as a matter of fact, yeah, yeah.
22:51
What's what are they called? The United Minnesota United FC
22:59
United. FC United, I, I, my extent of
23:02
the MLS knowledge of the MLS is Galaxy, obviously because it's
23:09
Hollywood, But the Whitecaps in Vancouver, I, I think that's my
23:15
team. If I was to, to support a team
23:18
because I went to Vancouver once and they were playing and, and I
23:23
just was like in a bar trying to watch Chelsea and, and it was
23:29
full of Whitecaps fans. Anyway, I digress.
23:32
The notion of creating coherence at scale without forcing it upon
23:37
anybody. Is this the name of the game?
23:39
And you kind of pass through this, this, this great orange
23:45
filter, this lens, this way of I, I think think of it like an
23:50
ontological thing, like it's like a way of being in the
23:52
world. You, you pass through this, this
23:55
filter and it does shift with time, not immediately, but over
24:04
time. It kind of tends to amplify some
24:06
of an individual's better traits and then somehow encourages them
24:14
to go out and contribute the, the I'm I'm curious to know
24:18
where you're at with regards to scaling some of these ideas at
24:24
the progressive Bitcoin and elsewhere.
24:26
Are you looking for global coherence and consensus or you,
24:31
you mentioned at the top making grassroot efforts to, to change
24:37
things? Because from my perspective,
24:41
there's this notion in farming where we can't do regenerative
24:46
farming at scale. We can't do organic modes of
24:50
agriculture at scale because we can't feed the world if we do.
24:55
And there's that great, I think he was on Rogan.
24:59
He's got a wide oak pastures. I can't remember the fella's
25:04
name. Anyway, he made a really great
25:06
point. It's not about feeding the
25:08
world. It's about feeding the community
25:10
in front of me. And then if somebody else does
25:12
that in their community, in their community, that's how we
25:15
scale it. That's how we get the coherence.
25:17
It's about taking care of what's in front of you, controlling the
25:21
controllables. Yeah, I completely agree with
25:25
that. I think this idea of scaling
25:31
becomes problematic in a lot of situations and it can be a hang
25:35
up when you could otherwise execute on something that's
25:37
going to be beneficial for once, a community.
25:40
For example, you know, the individuals who I referenced
25:45
earlier, who you know, who I believe to have a little bit
25:48
more of utopian takes on how we should structure society like
25:52
enact that. Go ahead, try to enact that in
25:54
your community. And if it works, you know,
25:57
that's wonderful. Maybe it will scale.
25:59
I just had my doubts initially, but I, I completely agree.
26:04
I don't, I don't not treat somebody as a physician because
26:09
I can't treat everybody right. You want to be able to help as
26:14
many as you can. That doesn't stop you from
26:16
helping one individual. And so from the progressive
26:20
Bitcoin or lens, I think that that's our mission.
26:24
We're not going to get everybody under the Bitcoin umbrella.
26:26
We're not going to be able to get everybody to believe or see
26:29
Bitcoin through the use Bitcoin through the filter that you and
26:33
I see it. That was the purpose of our
26:36
essays, no doubt. And I think you continue to chip
26:39
away at it. I just don't subscribe to the
26:43
binary of unless everybody's under the, the umbrella, you've
26:47
failed. And I don't believe in the
26:52
futility of, you know, not trying at all.
26:57
There's, there's a middle ground there.
26:59
And I think that gets to, you know, a part of your essay and
27:03
things are not, excuse me, circular or there's there's
27:07
spiral and there's the constant creation and destruction of, of
27:12
societies, you know, for millennia.
27:17
And that it is our job to get as many people from points of
27:24
suffering in their lives, poverty, etcetera, to a higher
27:29
rung. That's my belief.
27:31
And I, I just don't abide by the idea that because I can't save
27:37
everybody, I should therefore give up and throw in the towel.
27:42
So when it comes to the progressive big pointer, you
27:44
know, from a innate, we want to focus on the US primarily feel
27:50
like Alex Gladstein's got the, the rest of the world locked up
27:52
pretty well. And so we want to continue our
27:58
political efforts in DC and through education and, and then
28:07
on a local level or more local, we are going to be, we launched
28:14
a grant similar to what PPI has done and what HRF has previously
28:18
done and University of Wyoming with Bradley Rutler, a grant
28:23
for, you know, student to participate in, in Bitcoin
28:25
related research. And so I think with those
28:30
without, that's kind of the extent of what we can do right
28:32
now without additional funding. That's that's our next 12 months
28:37
goals. Amazing.
28:39
I got to say there is a, a slight tinge of, I'm not sure
28:44
what the right word is. Let's just say it's, it's kind
28:48
of like jealousy that the US are.
28:50
So there's so many of you pulling in different directions,
28:56
you know, with regards to scope, but all pulling in the same
29:01
direction together to sort of advance this Bitcoin cause from
29:06
an Australian perspective, it's basically still mates having yak
29:11
on a signal chat or Twitter or down the pub, something like
29:16
that. Like there are there's a bib
29:20
which are doing great things, extreme Bitcoin industry body
29:23
and a few and a few individuals that are really trying to push
29:27
the progression. But there just isn't really that
29:32
that groundswell that you're describing over there.
29:35
And it's it's really quite something to see, to be honest.
29:39
Yeah, something I appreciate. But you're adding to that.
29:42
And that's my point. You've got to do something.
29:47
That's the calling. And that's, you know, that's
29:48
what I took away from your essay.
29:50
And that's that's what I asked the reader to take away from
29:53
mine is that we are given this gift, right?
30:00
Satoshi gave us this gift. And one of the most profound,
30:04
selfless acts of human history, if we consider what it's done
30:11
for freedom, privacy, let alone wealth for individuals who
30:17
otherwise would not have gained it.
30:20
And to me, I see that and it's, it's hard not to be inspired,
30:31
let let alone feel a, a tremendous sense of duty to
30:36
uphold that act, to honor that act.
30:42
Where in in our in one's life can you say that you have
30:45
selflessly given up something to that degree, even a fraction of
30:50
that degree for the benefit of others?
30:53
And the point again, is not to do the same.
30:56
You, we don't need to all be Christ like we can.
30:59
We can do it on very micro levels, but the point is to do
31:06
it to help create freedom for others.
31:14
And I, and I think there's a multitude of ways of, of doing
31:16
that, but it was really in recent discourse, maybe over the
31:21
past 1216 months when NGU has really, really become the, the
31:27
focus that I was got discouraged with that direction.
31:32
And trying to recenter some of that conversation, recenter what
31:38
Bitcoiners have been, you know, prioritizing.
31:41
And while treasury companies are cool and all like, that's,
31:46
that's ultimately not why we're here.
31:50
And just like your essay, it's a bit of, it's a, it's a call to
31:53
action. And I hope people can take away
31:58
from the two of them, you know, a little bit of better
32:00
understanding of of the responsibility that has been
32:04
placed in their hands with with Bitcoin.
32:09
Quick break just to say, if you're enjoying the show and
32:12
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32:15
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32:47
Thank you for listening and thank you for your support.
32:51
How has discovering Bitcoin changed you?
32:59
From the the political side of things I've already discussed,
33:05
there's a, there was a confluence of factors in my life
33:10
that have led to this pressure that I feel to make this happen
33:18
to promote Bitcoin again, primarily to those who need it
33:22
most. A pressure at times I maybe it's
33:26
my own anxiety about it, but it's it's it's almost painful in
33:31
some sense, like in better if I back up and describe what those
33:36
confluence of variables are because it doesn't make sense
33:39
without without that. And as a physician, you know,
33:44
I'm constantly surrounded by death and I'm middle-aged now.
33:53
And so you start to reflect on, on your, your one's mortality
33:58
and when you're exposed to it every day and then, you know,
34:04
family events that have contributed to that fixation.
34:11
I, I began thinking a lot about not only my own mortality, but
34:16
my legacy and what that means, what I think that is going to
34:21
what I would want my future self to look back on and, and be
34:27
proud of at this point in my life.
34:29
You know, it's very much low time preference thinking, but as
34:33
it relates to 1's again, mortality legacy specifically,
34:37
not necessarily purchases and those that that combination of
34:46
things then aligned with the other huge element of of my life
34:54
and what I think about on a daily basis.
34:56
And that's Bitcoin. And so that's, it's they those,
35:03
those sentiments, those ideas began to melt together in an
35:08
understanding that when I look at Satoshi's legacy, which I
35:15
described here previously, how do I, I should, I want to
35:21
emulate that? I want to have that time stamp
35:26
legacy in my life. And I believe that other bit
35:29
pointers should too. And So what, what would that
35:33
look like in one's life? And that's it was really those
35:39
those sentiments that spawned my essay.
35:43
So I was working backwards in some sense to come up with the
35:49
the essay the ethics of immutability rather than, you
35:53
know, any background in philosophy or the humanities in
35:56
in applying those philosophers work to do an idea.
36:02
And Bitcoin is rather I was struggling with understanding
36:07
what Bitcoin meant in my life. I was struggling to understand
36:10
how to make sense of death and dying in my life.
36:15
And the only way I could reconcile all those things was
36:18
to know that that my actions have some degree of immutability
36:24
to them. What does that mean then?
36:28
What does that mean for me going forward?
36:32
Knows that exploration that I was the undertaking for that
36:37
essay. Interesting.
36:38
SO it, it, it, it you've, you've you've as a physician, you're
36:44
surrounded by death and I guess part of your job and I don't
36:49
know a heck of a lot of what specific areas you work within,
36:52
but I dare say given that you are a physician, the notion is
36:56
to effectively delay death. Basically like it's kind of kind
37:03
of, you know, patient comes in, they're presenting with certain
37:08
symptoms, illnesses, they're unwell and your job is to try
37:12
and make them well again. And, and you know, by any means
37:18
necessary. I suppose sometimes, and I could
37:21
be talking out of turn here, but the logic of the system is such
37:26
that you get paid more the more patients you see.
37:31
And so the less time you need, like I'm talking at AGP level
37:34
here now, the less time you spend with this person, the more
37:38
you can see patients throughout the day and the more money you
37:41
can get. And so then that's when
37:44
prescriptions come in handy quite, quite well.
37:49
And, and I'm only talking from personal experience.
37:51
I, I remember, I'd say probably long before Bitcoin, I would
37:56
have interactions with GPS. I haven't seen AGP in, in like 7
38:01
years. And that's not a, a humble brag
38:05
or anything. That's just like, if there's
38:06
just been no need for it or there's also just been a slight
38:10
reservation on my part as well. Given the fact that whenever I
38:14
would go, they would just sort of prescribe something.
38:18
And I'll take this, go see the, the pharmacist and, and you
38:23
should be fine or whatever. And it's like, let's get some
38:26
root cause analysis here. Can we, can we do that?
38:29
Can we get down to am I eating something that was causing, you
38:33
know, indigestion or something like that instead of just giving
38:36
me salt tablets? Anyway, I digress again.
38:40
But this notion of of denying death effectively is, is the
38:47
kind of MO, right? And yeah, with that, all of
38:53
these different philosophical metaphysical threads you can
38:55
pull on. Yeah.
38:57
So anyway, I'm sorry, I've completely lost my chain of, of
39:00
thought there. I apologize.
39:03
No. It's all right, I I'd be curious
39:07
to know where you thought our two essays converge.
39:14
Interesting. Yeah, I, I what my, my initial
39:21
reaction was basically that the ethics of immutability was like
39:25
a nice prelude to what I was trying to articulate in the
39:32
Spiral of Sovereignty. In that if someone was to read
39:37
the Ethics of Immutability first, they might kind of
39:40
understand some of the more woo woo aspects of, of the spiral of
39:48
sovereignty. And I say woo woo, but not only
39:50
because mostly the inclusion of of Rudolf Steiner, which on the
39:57
surface does appear quite woo woo.
40:00
However, there is quite a lot of meat to chew on, I think in a
40:04
lot of his work, although a lot of it is lacking in peer review
40:10
and and primary source material. But you know, if you can, if you
40:13
can kind of take what works, leave what doesn't.
40:15
I think there's quite a lot of signal there.
40:18
And effectively I am going to use and have used the ethics of
40:24
immutability. There's a couple of people that
40:28
I've sent it to who I know would not get what I'm trying to
40:33
articulate in the spiral of sovereignty.
40:36
But with that as the kind of underlying, they might be able
40:40
to leap a little bit further, stretch the mind a little bit
40:44
further to things like Percinian value and and all these other
40:50
things, Carl Jung's unas mundus, blah, blah, blah.
40:54
So yeah, like there's, there's a lot of grounding in your essay
40:58
compared to mine. Mine kind of tends to as, as I'm
41:02
want to do, spiral off into into, you know, metaphysics.
41:09
But yeah. And I, and I thought it was, it
41:14
was beautifully written. It was a lovely piece.
41:16
And I, there were a lot of parallels.
41:18
I also saw, you know, kind of a similar art between the two
41:22
where it's, you know, the discussions of what freedom is,
41:27
limitations and so forth is all fine and good, but ultimately,
41:33
how do we apply that to our own lives?
41:35
And ultimately, how do we encourage freedom for others?
41:41
And because I'm, I'm of the mindset, I'd be curious to get
41:45
your opinion. You know, we talked about
41:48
whether you want to talk about spiral dynamics or whether you
41:50
want to talk about, you know, specifically philosophy itself.
41:53
Like I'm the higher, the more, the higher up you get in that,
41:59
that spiral. Like, I think that is something
42:03
for everybody to aspire to. My question always falls back to
42:09
is what are you going to do with it?
42:12
What are you going to, what are you going to do with the Bitcoin
42:15
that you have? And the, what I've become
42:19
frustrated with, not frustrated, but I want to be able to call it
42:24
out because I, I, I, I see because I see the need for it
42:31
and I see what it, it means to when you only focus on yourself
42:34
like that is a wonderful thing to do.
42:37
And I think you need that foundation in order to truly
42:40
help others. You need that house to be
42:43
sturdy, but there's a essentially A finite amount that
42:51
you can do to that. And then what are you going to
42:54
do with your time? Then what are you going to do?
42:55
You're going to focus on your family, of course.
42:58
And then beyond that, these are all things to aspire to, in my
43:04
opinion. But where I see a lot of the
43:05
discussion, Bitcoin stopping is after the sovereign sell.
43:10
And I just want people to reflect on, OK, I've achieved
43:16
that. You've got your Bitcoin, you've
43:18
got your full storage now, what are you going to do with it?
43:22
And I can't help but harken back to what's the Toshi did like you
43:30
are not, you would not be that same sovereign individual
43:33
without his actions. And so in my opinion, it's
43:37
incumbent upon us to take that higher level of the spiral level
43:46
for our what we've done to maximize our own potential to
43:52
build our foundation, whether that's health or financial
43:56
security, etcetera, and actually apply that out into the world to
43:59
create freedom for others. Because in my opinion, that's
44:04
that's the ultimate goal. That's where legacy comes in.
44:10
That's where true fulfillment is, is had.
44:16
And I think it's a lot less fleeting than the type of
44:19
fulfillment one gets with the Max deadlift or having, you
44:24
know, the best metabolic parameters or, you know, putting
44:28
your kids through school. Like those are all finding good
44:31
goals. But in my opinion, when you
44:37
apply that same, that same force, that same impetus towards
44:43
others, it's truly when you, you, you take the next level in
44:49
one's life. And like I say, ultimately.
44:52
Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a matter of wrestling
45:01
with the ego. You know, you, you, as you say,
45:04
you kind of all right, cool. You've, you've got your Bitcoin.
45:07
You're now a sovereign individual.
45:08
If you've done all the things, you maybe have your citadel and
45:12
that's all cool and everything, but like, yeah, So what, What
45:18
next? I don't think there should be
45:21
any real compulsion for bitcoiners to necessarily have
45:26
to answer that question. If they just want to be, you
45:29
know, selfish in their in their way of being, then you know,
45:37
feel your boots if the urge and the impulse to contribute
45:42
outside or beyond yourself. So scaling it to your partner,
45:49
maybe your family, certainly your family immediately, at
45:53
least beyond that, you know, helping maybe brothers and
45:58
sisters and aunts and uncles or whatever.
46:01
But then I, I think for me personally, it's a notion about
46:06
helping others by, by helping myself 1st.
46:10
And so aligning myself in, in, in, in right coherence and, you
46:19
know, tuning myself to, to make sure that I'm in the best
46:24
possible position. Like people talk about, oh,
46:27
you've got all this Bitcoin, but you're unhealthy.
46:29
And so you may not leave to, to actually see the net benefit of
46:34
it or whatever. So there's got to be a lot of
46:38
self reflection and self work in order to attune yourself to
46:46
coherence, to alignment. And then you can go out into the
46:51
world and inevitably you'll interact with others.
46:55
And if you, you know, attune to their particular frequency, then
47:01
you can start conversations. There's this Kurt Vonnegut quote
47:07
I read the other day. It was about his wife asked him
47:10
she needed an envelope and she said, could you jump online and
47:14
just, you know, order a pack of envelopes and and get them
47:18
shipped here? And he refused to do that and
47:21
instead walked like went down to the street into town to buy a
47:26
single envelope. And this little snippet of this
47:30
essay is basically him saying the reason, you know, he did
47:32
that is because he got to pat a dog on the way and he met up
47:36
with a a friend that he hadn't seen in a while.
47:38
And so he was able to have that conversation, you know, stopped
47:42
and had a coffee and, and, and, and spent, you know, 5-10
47:46
minutes just kind of sitting, observing the street and what
47:49
goes on and then eventually getting the envelope.
47:52
And that the point was that you can outsource, you know, the
47:55
getting of the envelope because that's what you need.
47:58
But there's let's not forget the joy and the pleasure that can be
48:02
had found in the task of needing to get the envelope.
48:07
But forget, you know, enjoying all of those things that are on
48:11
the surface and in our day and age wasteful potentially.
48:15
Like, you know, you don't have time to pet the dog and catch up
48:18
with old friends and have a coffee.
48:19
You know, I need the envelope now, yesterday.
48:23
There's this, there's this, there's this notion that we
48:28
forget to experience those things.
48:31
So when you when you go out and helping, helping yourself by
48:35
helping others, sorry, helping others by helping yourself, it's
48:40
you have that freedom and bandwidth to actually do those
48:45
things on the way to getting the envelope like Bitcoin gives you
48:48
that time and space to breathe and to be rather than rushing on
48:54
to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing, which
48:56
is kind of the energy of Fiat really, whereas Bitcoin does it
49:02
slow down. And so from that, if you can
49:05
open up your bandwidth and, you know, make time for patting the
49:10
dog or getting coffee, potentially you could work on
49:13
other aspects within the community that you now have the
49:20
the bandwidth for the time and the energy to direct.
49:24
It's kind of like a spiritual way of way of being in the
49:29
world. Absolutely.
49:32
And my essay is built with the assumption that an individual
49:37
has met that those criteria by which they feel like they are,
49:43
have taken care of themselves sufficiently.
49:46
You know, I don't, you know, I don't think 1 needs to achieve
49:53
Nirvana before you can try to help others.
49:57
But at the same time, I completely empathize.
50:03
And that's the whole point of the progressive Bitcoiners, that
50:05
you can't expect others to do that if they're struggling
50:08
financially, if they can't make it to the next rung of the
50:11
spiral, right? You can't.
50:15
It's hard then to try to help others when you're struggling
50:18
yourself. And so, yeah, the essay was
50:21
built with the premise that for a lot of us, we've had the
50:24
opportunity to better ourselves and therefore have that
50:27
bandwidth to help others. And that's, that's really where
50:33
the the call to action is. Is that now many of us can do
50:40
have the bandwidth, but a lot more of us in the coming years
50:44
are going to have that bandwidth.
50:46
You're going to have, you know, insane amounts of wealth and in
50:50
the future. What are you going to to do with
50:52
that do with that after you're you and your family are kept
50:56
right? And so I ask, you know,
51:00
bitcointers to to reflect on the question and, you know, if every
51:04
action were recorded on a black on on a blockchain, on a Bitcoin
51:10
blockchain, would you act differently?
51:14
How would you want your future self to be remembered if you
51:19
were time stamped on, you know, an opportunity?
51:22
What on the with Bitcoin? Obviously that's not a, a, a
51:30
necessarily direct, it's, it's a thought experiment.
51:34
And but I do think there's some validity to it because our lives
51:40
are recorded to some degree in the conscience of others, right?
51:47
You know, I can't tell you how many times I've had patient
51:50
interactions where it's been these little things that they
51:53
remember. And so I'm always cognizant of
51:58
that interacting with others that my actions live on in, in
52:05
the lives of others. So there's some degree of
52:09
immutability to our lives. And that's, that's really the,
52:18
the, the crux of the paper is to act in a way that you want to be
52:24
remembered by as if your life is time stamped on the Bitcoin
52:28
blockchain. And, you know, drawing on the
52:33
concepts of reciprocal freedom and the understanding that to
52:38
truly be free is, is to allow the freedom of others as well.
52:44
And freedom being this, this concept that majority of
52:50
Bitcoiners really value, it's again incumbent upon us to
52:58
ensure the freedom for others. I, I, I, I feel that so strongly
53:03
like the, the, the line between what so she Satoshi did and in
53:11
passing that torch to us as big pointers and then it being our
53:17
duty to continue to pass that torch.
53:20
I can't think of anything else again in, in our society or the
53:27
future that that may have that line of possibility, right.
53:32
It's almost like a a secular religion whereby we are our
53:40
values are driven by the promotion of freedom for others.
53:46
And we don't need to bow at the altar, Satoshi.
53:51
We don't need to, you know, take the communion of nodes.
53:56
What we do need to do is ensure that we can, whether on a small
54:02
scale or large scale, if we have the opportunity, is to ensure
54:05
that others can also, to carry on the metaphor, drink from that
54:11
cup of freedom. And that's, you know, that's,
54:19
that's my hope, that's my wish. And that's what I'm going to
54:22
continue to to fight for. And again, it's not because I
54:24
believe that everybody's going to get under that umbrella, but
54:27
I do know, I, I do know that you and I and those doing this work
54:32
will change lives in that we will have an impact and we will
54:38
be remembered for those things. And to me, there's nothing more
54:46
fulfilling where I can look back on in my final days to say,
54:51
yeah, I helped change those lives.
54:53
I, I helped those individuals self actualized to the extent
54:58
that they, they wanted and they could without otherwise having
55:04
the opportunity to do so. And I, you know, I think that's
55:08
how a life well lived. Yeah, man, I get that.
55:11
I personally am not too fond of the grand gesture.
55:15
I don't particularly bother myself with being remembered by,
55:22
you know, anyone. Sort of beyond my immediate
55:26
family really. And what I really appreciate
55:31
more so than the grand gestures is the notion of showing up
55:35
every single day and trying to be the best father, the best
55:40
husband, the best friend that I can be for the individuals that,
55:46
you know, rotate in my, in my atmosphere or whatever.
55:52
And I'm not. Yeah, Yeah.
55:54
Well, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm, Yeah, when I, when I've
55:58
discussed this in the past, I, I don't, those are grand gestures,
56:02
what you're describing. I'm not talking about, you know,
56:06
being the next Rockefeller or, you know, the next Mother
56:10
Teresa. What you're describing are grand
56:13
gestures because they're not always the norm. 1 doesn't get
56:20
to always ask how do I be the best person?
56:23
How do I get to be my the best version of myself?
56:27
I think that is a grand gesture to your point.
56:30
Interesting. Yeah, OK.
56:32
And so I think those can, those can be while they seem small,
56:38
those can be the large impact that it, it is those small
56:42
things that are the grand gestures because they are the
56:45
things that are remembered. Yeah, kind of the big things
56:48
without the small things. Right.
56:51
Exactly. Yeah.
56:51
I'll give you, you know, an example.
56:53
My mother was a teacher and she she taught 2nd grade and she had
56:59
a student who had a really hard home life.
57:04
And so, you know, she bought her lunch one day because she didn't
57:10
have any money and something that my mom felt, you know, just
57:14
in passing was not a big deal. But years later, when she's a a
57:20
grown woman with her own child, she comes back to visit my mom
57:22
and just said that, you know, that changed everything for me
57:25
to see that somebody cared that enough to to buy this lunch for
57:29
me, you know, gave me some degree of hope when she told me
57:33
the story as a little kid, like to to understand that those are
57:39
very, very much the the grand gesture.
57:43
Things that matter. That I'm right exactly, and I'm
57:46
sorry if not making that more abundantly.
57:48
Well, yeah, no, I appreciate the clarification because that does
57:53
make a heck of a lot more sense. It's it is those tiny little
57:56
things, those little moments that are infinitely more
58:00
important than these big things. It's, it's one of the reasons
58:03
why I just tune out a lot of a lot of macro political
58:10
discussion because it's completely ineffectual,
58:13
effectively net net on a day-to-day basis.
58:16
So, you know, and, and it's ultimately distracting me from
58:21
being present and being in being here now, as Ramdas says.
58:27
And I think that's one of the most one of the most important
58:31
things that I've learned certainly in the last couple of
58:33
years is, is that to be here now, basically just be present
58:42
now, here right now, you and I talking, this is the most
58:47
important thing in the world because this is all that exists.
58:51
You know, what's curious to me is that, you know, in the future
58:57
and this by definition, because we're recording this, people
59:01
will listen to this and they will be in the future.
59:04
And this conversation will now have technically taken place in
59:07
the past, but this this concept of time being a flat circle and
59:15
basically everything is happening all at once.
59:17
I'm kind of coming around to that as well.
59:19
So maybe this conversation is happening right now, but in the
59:24
future, potentially where you are temporarily, temporally.
59:29
But the, yeah, the, the, the, the concept of, of just
59:36
constantly being present and showing up or whatever that is,
59:40
if it's, you know, just making breakfast for the kids in the
59:43
morning or, you know, attending the community seminar to try and
59:48
figure out is there a way that we can purchase a couple of
59:51
buildings in town that might, you know, benefit the community
59:57
rather than have it centralized in the hands of people that just
1:00:01
don't even live in the community?
1:00:03
Things like this. So, and there are questions of
1:00:05
scale effectively and, and the only way you can do that is if
1:00:09
you have the time and energy available to direct in those
1:00:15
ways. And there are people that do it
1:00:16
without Bitcoin and have done it without Bitcoin.
1:00:19
But I think both the, the thing we're both getting at is that it
1:00:22
is so much easier and more possible to do it if you have a
1:00:27
little bit of Bitcoin in your back pocket.
1:00:29
And that's kind of the mission mostly for for me.
1:00:32
And where I'm trying to do this in my own community is, you
1:00:37
know, square myself away, square my family away.
1:00:40
And these are dynamic things. These aren't static.
1:00:44
And then, you know, start, begin allocating a little bit of time,
1:00:48
you know, each week, each month, whatever it is to some community
1:00:53
endeavours, whether that's trying to onboard the local
1:00:56
sporting club, you know, who are trying to raise money for
1:00:59
uniforms for the kids or whatever.
1:01:01
It's like, well, you know, if we had a little Bitcoin treasury,
1:01:03
we could potentially sustain this community sporting team
1:01:10
well into the future. And the challenge and the, the
1:01:14
friction that you encounter, particularly early doors right
1:01:17
now is the lack of knowledge. It's that asymmetric knowledge.
1:01:21
You, you know that this, this thing would, would help fix the
1:01:26
issue that they're, that they're, they're, they're
1:01:28
griping about or that they want to fix if, but, but you have to
1:01:34
put in the work first and foremost.
1:01:35
First you have to go in and, and at least get a notional
1:01:39
understanding of what Bitcoin is and what it can do and its
1:01:43
potentials. It's it's, it's infinite
1:01:45
potentials. You can just go in and pick
1:01:47
whatever you want from from the it's, it's almost like source,
1:01:54
basically SOURCE. I'm rambling.
1:02:00
My point is that that's the challenge I think that creates
1:02:04
the most tension is that you might have coherence and
1:02:07
alignment in yourself and you're trying to scale that beyond you.
1:02:12
But you run into the hurdle rate of people's knowledge
1:02:15
effectively and their willingness, in fact, to want to
1:02:19
really solve the problem and get beyond that.
1:02:22
Wow, that sounds too good to be true.
1:02:24
I don't know about that. Or whatever other FUD that
1:02:27
rattles around their brain, which is completely normal and
1:02:30
fine, and then it's your challenge to even overcome that.
1:02:33
But ultimately it comes down to individual will and wanting to
1:02:38
do something to actually solve the problem rather than there's
1:02:44
a lot of people that love to whinge on Twitter all the time
1:02:47
and that's all they do. They just love to point out the
1:02:49
problems and never ever offer a solution.
1:02:52
And usually when Bitcoin is counter with a solution like,
1:02:56
well, you know, if you considered something and maybe
1:02:58
they do it in a, in a, in a, in a scathing way or a trite way or
1:03:03
something like that. But some most of the time it's
1:03:06
polite. If you've been on Twitter for 10
1:03:09
years and all you've done is just poke holes at the political
1:03:13
problems and never attempted to solve any of them through any
1:03:17
meaningful, practical way, well, then you're just you're
1:03:20
monetizing outrage and you're wasting everybody's time.
1:03:26
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think we're aligned on those
1:03:30
sentiments. And I, I, I hope that
1:03:36
conversations like this continue to pull people in at the
1:03:41
margins, be able to reflect on the non financial elements of,
1:03:50
of Bitcoin, to reflect on the refundity of what Satoshi did
1:03:57
for the world and reflect on what that means for them in, in
1:04:04
their lives and, and how they, how that will impact not only
1:04:08
themselves and their family, but those that they encounter in
1:04:12
the, in the future. And like, like I said before,
1:04:15
all the things that you just described are all grand in my
1:04:18
eye. Those, those can have the
1:04:22
greatest impact for people we do and do not know.
1:04:27
And that's what I'm asking for us to all reflect on that it it
1:04:32
doesn't take much. And it's this day-to-day
1:04:34
presence that can really make a huge difference beyond what you
1:04:40
would ordinarily believe. And I do believe that those are,
1:04:45
those are like micro augmentations of, of individuals
1:04:50
freedoms, whether you know, whether you know them or not,
1:04:52
you know, Herb Vonnegut petting that dog, talking to a friend
1:04:58
whom we otherwise wouldn't have done so, but he prioritized that
1:05:02
situation. Those are all grand in the eyes
1:05:08
of others. And so I think it's, I think
1:05:13
we're, we're at a point here where we really have this
1:05:16
opportunity. And, and like I said, I what
1:05:19
you're doing and the, the types of conversations that you're
1:05:21
have, you're having. I want us to continue to have
1:05:25
more of those. And I hope that there is somehow
1:05:30
a broader scale by which we can, you know, have a, a megaphone
1:05:36
for this type of understanding. You know, whether that's a
1:05:41
conference of some sort or I don't know, open to suggestions,
1:05:46
but I, I really think there needs to be a, a, a coalescence
1:05:49
of individuals who are seeing the world through this orange
1:05:55
lens and, and take it from there.
1:06:01
What do you wish more people knew about Bitcoin?
1:06:10
That I wish I knew the scale of its usage and in that at least
1:06:24
speaking from my, you know, circle of friends and influence
1:06:29
that it, it has already solved for a lot of the things that
1:06:35
they espouse to desire, promote and believe it.
1:06:41
That this tool already exists and that it's, it's, it's high
1:06:50
time to start, you know, thinking more openly about it
1:06:54
and not attaching it to some political motives or other ones.
1:07:00
Totally, totally, totally. Everyone gets so hung up on the
1:07:05
Trump thing or or whatever, and it's just like, oh man, it's way
1:07:08
bigger than that. It's way bigger than that.
1:07:13
What does Bitcoin mean to you? It is a filter.
1:07:38
There's a lens by which to view the world that I'm incredibly
1:07:47
grateful to have found, discovered, and continue to
1:07:53
commit myself to eight years later.
1:07:59
It's no longer solely about NGU. And I'm grateful for that.
1:08:07
This must be what it's like to have faith.
1:08:12
This is what it must like to be, you know, in a revolution.
1:08:24
You know, I'm 45, never thought that there would be an
1:08:29
opportunity to be a part of something that felt so big.
1:08:37
And, and yet here we are. And I know that in the years and
1:08:42
decades to come, we'll be able to look back and, and be
1:08:46
grateful that we were part of it and grateful that we in some
1:08:51
degree made it happen. And it's, it's, it's, it's a
1:09:00
beautiful lens. If you choose to see it as such,
1:09:04
like Rick Ross says, you know, it is very much a, a vortex
1:09:08
test. But even madness can can be
1:09:15
believed at times in that vortex can change.
1:09:19
And I think Bitcoin is allowed for that for for many of us.
1:09:25
And so I'm just incredibly grateful for it.
1:09:27
I'm incredibly grateful for the, the Bitcoin community and then
1:09:30
those that I've met, you know, including yourself.
1:09:33
It's just a fantastic, it's a fantastic thing.
1:09:38
It's fantastic family really. Well, Doctor Mark, Stephanie,
1:09:44
thank you very much for spending some scarce time, finite energy,
1:09:48
telling us the tale of how you discovered Bitcoin.
1:09:50
It's been a a pleasure and a little self indulgent at times
1:09:55
to be able to unpack my own essay in light of yours as well,
1:09:59
so thanks for indulging me on that.
1:10:03
And yeah, much obliged. Thank you, DJ.