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How Is the DA Tracking in the 2026 Municipal Elections? · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: Issues to the bigger picture. Follow the local government in
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  Speaker 1: action on 702 Drive with John Perlman.
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  Speaker 2: 702 Drive, let's focus then on the city of Johannesburg
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  Speaker 2: and welcome to the show, Helen Ziller, who is the DA's,
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  Speaker 2: Democratic Alliance's mayoral candidate for the Joburg Metro.
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  Speaker 3: Ms.
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  Speaker 2: Ziller, welcome and thanks very much for giving us your time.
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  Speaker 2: Early days in the Joburg vote count, 22% of the
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  Speaker 2: votes have been candidates. So there are some twists and
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  Speaker 2: turns ahead. But if you look at what's in so far,
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  Speaker 2: have you mainly got what you've expected to get based
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  Speaker 2: on campaigning and the work that your ground team has done?
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  Speaker 2: Or perhaps are there some areas where you've either done
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  Speaker 2: better or you might be disappointed?
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  Speaker 1: Good afternoon to you.
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  Speaker 3: Good afternoon, John, and good afternoon to our listeners. Yes,
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  Speaker 3: we've won some wonderful awards that we've never had before,
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  Speaker 3: which was really great. And we are winning quite a
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  Speaker 3: few more that we didn't expect to win. But, of course,
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  Speaker 3: the overall percentage poll is the big challenge that there is.
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  Speaker 3: And we are going to do our very best to
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  Speaker 3: push 40%, which will be very good for us.
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, at the moment you're on 39.71.
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  Speaker 2: So, you know, if these things get rounded up, you're
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  Speaker 2: kind of on 40% now.
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  Speaker 1: But it depends what's being counted.
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  Speaker 2: Is it your sense that the balance of what still
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  Speaker 2: remains to be counted may not give you 40% overall?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, are you expecting perhaps to dip based on
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  Speaker 2: demographics and voting history?
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  Speaker 3: Some things will help us. There's some big, big voting
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  Speaker 3: districts out that will help us. And then some obviously
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  Speaker 3: will run against us. So on balance, I think they
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  Speaker 3: will cancel each other out. I'm hoping to get around 40%.
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  Speaker 2: And 40% you then do what? You set about working
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  Speaker 2: on coalitions and obviously your experience in the setting up
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  Speaker 2: of the National Governing Coalition after the 2024 election will
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  Speaker 2: have taught you a few things. What do you think
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  Speaker 2: are the key lessons from that?
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  Speaker 3: Well, the key lessons are that coalitions in South Africa
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  Speaker 3: don't work like they do in other proportional representation countries.
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  Speaker 3: For a start, I found that many coalition partners in
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  Speaker 3: South Africa don't read the coalition agreement, and they don't
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  Speaker 3: much care about the coalition agreement. What they care about
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  Speaker 3: is which portfolios they can get and how they can
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  Speaker 3: leverage those portfolios in their interest. So that is a
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  Speaker 3: big problem, and so often they just ignore the coalition
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  Speaker 3: agreement completely. which is very, very difficult. And then it's
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  Speaker 3: always easy to reach agreement on principles and values. The
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  Speaker 3: trouble is principles and values only matter in their implementation.
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  Speaker 3: And if people know how to pay lip service to
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  Speaker 3: those values but then ignore them when it comes to
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  Speaker 3: behaving in accordance with them, it makes things very difficult.
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  Speaker 2: Is there any party that in Joburg, in your calculations, Ms. Ziller,
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  Speaker 2: of how this might all play out, that has done
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  Speaker 2: better than you expected? I think the DA in general,
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  Speaker 2: and certainly that's been part of your pre-election conversation, those
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  Speaker 2: that I've heard. the strong sense that the ANC is
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  Speaker 2: going to dip as low as it seems it has
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  Speaker 2: to dip. But as you've looked ahead to the playing
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  Speaker 2: out of the election and the different coalition configurations, has
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  Speaker 2: anyone stepped up higher and further than you imagined or expected?
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  Speaker 3: Well, we have in many ways, so I'm very pleased
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  Speaker 3: about that. And in Action SA, obviously their anti-foreigner sentiment
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  Speaker 3: helped them enormously in various sections of the vote.
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  Speaker 2: So Action SA, just to give people the current numbers
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  Speaker 2: on Joburg, as I said, with 22%, DA 39.7, ANC 17.2,
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  Speaker 2: Action SA 16.1, the EFF 6.5, the MK Party 4.4,
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  Speaker 2: and just to give you a top six, Freedom Front
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  Speaker 2: Plus at 2.5.
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  Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of what decided....
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  Speaker 2: Voters' minds in this election was that it's clearly not
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  Speaker 2: a loyalty election in the way that we might have
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  Speaker 2: said 15, 20 years ago, because those loyalties in so
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  Speaker 2: many ways have fragmented. But if you were to look
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  Speaker 2: back on the election in a couple of weeks' time,
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  Speaker 2: what do you think would have been the decisive issues?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think there were both push and pull factors.
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  Speaker 3: There were a lot of push factors out of the
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  Speaker 3: ANC for many voters. The fact that over the past weekend,
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  Speaker 3: 50 suburbs didn't have water was a massive push factor,
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  Speaker 3: as one can imagine. And then there were some pull
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  Speaker 3: factors for the DA. I think people are more and
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  Speaker 3: more voting on who they think can do a better
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  Speaker 3: job in government, which is a very good piece of
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  Speaker 3: news for a consolidating democracy like South Africa, because people
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  Speaker 3: are making the issues the issue now, which is a
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  Speaker 3: very good thing. And then another strand of voter sentiment
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  Speaker 3: was driven by the anti-foreigner sentiment in large parts of Johannesburg.
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  Speaker 2: I want to get a little bit ahead of where
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  Speaker 2: we are now, Mozilla, and once again return to the
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  Speaker 2: conversations around coalitions. Obviously, harsh words are exchanged, I think
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  Speaker 2: it's fair to say, in general during elections.
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  Speaker 1: Do you begin the.
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  Speaker 2: Conversation by sort of all shaking hands and saying, All's
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  Speaker 2: fair in love and war, and yes, we meant it,
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  Speaker 2: but we, you know, nothing personal. Or is it straight
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  Speaker 2: down to business and hurt feelings take care of themselves
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  Speaker 2: or not?
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  Speaker 3: Well, in politics, you can't really have hurt feelings. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: if you're going to nourish grievances or nurture grievances, then
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  Speaker 3: that's really not the place to be for you because
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  Speaker 3: people say some very tough things in the course of
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  Speaker 3: a campaign and in the course of a lifetime in politics,
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  Speaker 3: you know. So hurt feelings are not the issue here.
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  Speaker 3: The issue is who do we trust most to act
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  Speaker 3: with integrity and follow a joint governance plan in government
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  Speaker 3: in forming a coalition. And that is very difficult for
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  Speaker 3: the choices on our side.
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  Speaker 2: If you, though, say that who do you trust, surely
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  Speaker 2: trust is in part based on the way people make
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  Speaker 2: you feel. And it's possible that you have a tougher
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  Speaker 2: skin than many other politicians, either by way of your
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  Speaker 2: personality or maybe a number of years in the job,
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  Speaker 2: would think add a couple of layers of calluses as well.
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  Speaker 1: But in terms of trust....
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  Speaker 2: Is that then purely dependent on what policies they have?
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  Speaker 3: No, no, no. Trust really depends on whether people have
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  Speaker 3: acted with integrity before, whether they have done what they've
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  Speaker 3: said and said what they've done. And that is really
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  Speaker 3: the main thing. Can we trust you? Can we believe
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  Speaker 3: that you'll stick by your word? Do we believe that
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  Speaker 3: your word means anything? Do we believe that your signature
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  Speaker 3: on a piece of paper means anything?
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  Speaker 2: I want to go back to something you just said
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  Speaker 2: and ask you this because you said this is going
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  Speaker 2: to be difficult looking at the choices on offer. Would
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  Speaker 2: it not be fair to say, though, that the mandate
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  Speaker 2: the voters have given you is to govern Johannesburg if
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  Speaker 2: you can, not necessarily at any cost? But is there
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  Speaker 2: not an expectation that you will make significant compromises with
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  Speaker 2: the purpose of making sure that a coalition with the
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  Speaker 2: DAA at its center, or at the very least with
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  Speaker 2: a significant role, is in charge of the Joburg metro?
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  Speaker 2: Because I don't want to put words in your mouth,
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  Speaker 2: but when you said not too optimistic based on the
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  Speaker 2: choices on offer, you don't sound hugely positive that you
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  Speaker 2: can put this thing together.
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  Speaker 3: Well, fortunately, I don't have to negotiate it. That's being
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  Speaker 3: done at national level. But what I do know is
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  Speaker 3: that if we govern, we have to be able to
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  Speaker 3: govern well. It has to be a confluence of parties
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  Speaker 3: that will be able in concert to govern well. And
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  Speaker 3: if we can't do that, and if we don't think
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  Speaker 3: we'll be able to do that, it's really best to
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  Speaker 3: be in opposition.
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  Speaker 2: Why would it be better to be in opposition, though?
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  Speaker 2: Because opposition... I mean, you know the limitations of that,
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  Speaker 2: that you can move the needle on issues and the
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  Speaker 2: way those issues are framed and discussed. But haven't we now,
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  Speaker 2: with a city like Johannesburg, given the depth of its crisis,
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  Speaker 2: reached a point where you actually, by any means possible,
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  Speaker 2: literally or virtually, have to get the key to the
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  Speaker 2: door and your hand on the credit card?
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  Speaker 1: Wrong example, credit card.
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  Speaker 2: The bank card.
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  Speaker 3: I get that.
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  Speaker 1: We've had enough credit card use, yes.
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  Speaker 3: Indeed. But let me say this. The DA's brand is
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  Speaker 3: good government. And if we get into office, we want
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  Speaker 3: to be able to govern well. It doesn't help to
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  Speaker 3: get into government and then govern badly because you've got
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  Speaker 3: unstable coalitions or you've got other parties pulling in opposite
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  Speaker 3: directions or you have to turn a blind eye to
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  Speaker 3: their corner cutting in order to stay in power. That's
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  Speaker 3: not helpful. And, you know, people in a democracy really
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  Speaker 3: have to learn that if they want good government, they
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  Speaker 3: have to vote for it and they have to make
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  Speaker 3: the issues be issues. We will certainly try and put
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  Speaker 3: coalitions together, but if we don't believe that we can
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  Speaker 3: put together a coalition in which we can govern well, then,
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  Speaker 3: as I say, it's better to be in opposition.
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  Speaker 2: I wonder if the experience of some of your colleagues, though,
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  Speaker 2: in the GNU might test the way you frame that.
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  Speaker 2: I mean … There are all sorts of problems with
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  Speaker 2: the governing coalition at national level. But, for example, if
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  Speaker 2: you look at someone like Leon Schreiber, who really seems
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  Speaker 2: to me at least to have taken home affairs by
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  Speaker 2: the scruff of the neck and said, OK, well, this
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  Speaker 2: is what I'm able to do within this framework. and
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to do it as well as I can.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, is that not as much of a model
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  Speaker 2: as the scenario you've just set out, that yes, it's
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  Speaker 2: not going to be perfect, but we can do this
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  Speaker 2: well enough? I mean, presumably well enough is what you're
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  Speaker 2: aiming for or not?
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  Speaker 1: Something higher?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I like to aim at something higher, but I'm
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  Speaker 3: prepared to settle for well enough if it is well enough.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at a portfolio like Home Affairs,
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  Speaker 3: Home Affairs is a portfolio that doesn't have many dependencies.
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  Speaker 3: And by that I mean you don't need other people
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  Speaker 3: to do their job well for you to do your
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  Speaker 3: job in Home Affairs. And then you can set up
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  Speaker 3: all kinds of new systems with new technologies and get
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  Speaker 3: really good outcomes quickly. Obviously, when you are going into
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  Speaker 3: places where a lot of people who are living illegally
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  Speaker 3: in South Africa– are there, then you do have a
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  Speaker 3: dependency on the South African Police Service, for example, because
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  Speaker 3: they have to help you do the exercise. But by
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  Speaker 3: and large, Home Affairs does not have many dependencies on
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  Speaker 3: other departments. And so if you're the Minister of Home Affairs,
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  Speaker 3: you can achieve a lot on your own. In local government,
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  Speaker 3: it's very, very hard to do that. But there are
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  Speaker 3: some places where you could do that. And it would
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  Speaker 3: be important to be able to show that where the
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  Speaker 3: DA has a portfolio we're able to deliver on it.
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  Speaker 3: Another massively complicating factor about Joburg is that there really
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  Speaker 3: is no money.
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  Speaker 1: There is no money.
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  Speaker 3: The pot is empty, the flask is drained, there's really
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  Speaker 3: nothing in it, and the billing system's in chaos, the
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  Speaker 3: corruption is endemic, money is draining from the city, And
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  Speaker 3: there are many competing criminal syndicates vying for control of
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  Speaker 3: the purse. And that is a very, very serious problem
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  Speaker 3: in Joburg. And unless you can get on top of that,
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  Speaker 3: you can't succeed in anything. So if we were, let's say,
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  Speaker 3: to do a coalition, it has to be an agreement
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  Speaker 3: on an anti-corruption strategy that everybody would have to adhere to.
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  Speaker 3: And we would have to get it signed and sealed.
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  Speaker 3: because otherwise there are going to be people who are
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  Speaker 3: going to have too much of a vested interest in
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  Speaker 3: the corruption he's currently carrying on and who will do
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  Speaker 3: their best to prevent us from clearing it out.
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  Speaker 2: Helen Ziller, thank you. DA's mayoral candidate for Johannesburg. Give
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  Speaker 2: us your thoughts on the interview and what you heard.
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  Speaker 2: And if you voted for the DA, for example, I mean...
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  Speaker 2: What lengths would you expect them to go to put
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  Speaker 2: a coalition together? How much compromise would you expect them
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  Speaker 2: to make? And do you share Helen Ziller's view that
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  Speaker 2: if you can't get a significant enough sense that people
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  Speaker 2: are going to work with you for the same purpose,
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  Speaker 2: with the same framework of ideas, and I think she
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  Speaker 2: seemed to be saying ethics as well, then it's better
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  Speaker 2: to be in opposition.
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  Speaker 1: I'd love to get your view.