Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Convene Interview: Daniel Hires on Transforming Leadership, Sustainability, and Complex Challenges
Transcript
- Convene Interview, ep. 6 *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies [00:05] Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene Podcast. My name is Maggie, Digital media Editor. [00:11] In this episode, Daniel Hires explores the potential of the Inner Development Goals, a not for profit and open source initiative which was first introduced at a conference in 2020. [00:24] The idea behind came from the founders realization that while in 2015 the Sustainable Development Goals gave us a comprehensive plan for a sustainable world, by 2030 we seem to lack the inner capacity to deal with our increasingly complex environment and challenges. [00:44] In November 2023, the IDG foundation was initiated by eight organizations, among them the Flourishing Network at Harvard University and World Business Council for Sustainable Development. [01:01] The IDG's main focus is on working with organizations as they have a potential to accelerate human growth and collective learning. [01:12] With Daniel, we discuss how inner growth drives systemic change, the importance of gratitude and self reflection practices, and how organizations can empower employees to navigate complexity, foster collaboration and align purpose with action. [01:30] Enjoy the episode. [01:35] Magdalina Atanassova: Welcome to the Convene Podcast. Today I'm joined by Daniel Hires, who is Executive Board of Directors, marketing and Partnerships at the Inner Development Goals. So welcome Daniel, to. [01:48] Daniel Hires: Hi Maggie. Thanks for having me. It's like we've shortened it a little bit so it's more easy. I think it's just like the Chief Marketing Officer, so makes it a bit easier. [01:57] Magdalina Atanassova: A CMO. Everybody knows a CMO. [01:59] Daniel Hires: Exactly, exactly. [02:00] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. I just want to start things off with your personal perspective. [02:06] You've been working in the sustainability field, so how have your own views evolved with time, especially now that you joined the Inner Development Goals? [02:16] Daniel Hires: All right, good. We have a first question that we can spend two hours on already. [02:21] So yeah, they've evolved greatly. I mean, I originally didn't necessarily grow up in a household that, you know, was like super eco fanatic or anything, but I did grow up in Europe and when I went to study in the us I noticed that there was a bit of a culture change that, you know, my first weeks at university, there's welcome week, there's all these brunches, lunches, picnics, and there would just always be this mountain of plastic left over. [02:51] And I just realized how, you know, not being overly sensitive to it, coming from Europe to the us there was a bit of like, yeah, wow, nobody is thinking about this at all. [03:02] And so that I think was maybe the first kind of wave of my kind of sensibilization for sustainability. [03:11] And then I studied in the us, I came back to Europe to Germany and I was working in the sustainability field actually where I was working in the carbon market back when nobody knew what carbon offsets Were we were on the one hand developing these projects and on the other hand selling them into back then the compliance markets. [03:30] It wasn't even about like offsetting your own emissions. And then I was part of that kind of change to look into. [03:38] So we had these B2B clients buying, you know, a million tons at once. And I was part of more and more conversations around, yeah, the consumers are looking to also be more green. [03:50] And that I think was then the next phase where we worked to see how can we then develop products, offerings to people to also have more green and sustainable lives. [04:03] But I think the big change came a couple of years ago with really a sea change, I think in how I look at the world as well. And I think this oftentimes comes with age, that comes with personal crises, you know, like feeling burned out, maybe loss of meaning, some, some personal tragedies as well, where you really start to think a bit more about the big picture. [04:27] And for me that just included that. I realized that if we as kind of impact entrepreneurs or social entrepreneurs, if we're just changing the what and we put like now the impact in front of entrepreneurship and describe what we're doing, that's not enough. [04:45] Like we actually need to change the how as well. Because if we're building the same types of organizations and structures that are burning out our staff and burning out ourselves, we're just contributing to burnout and the status quo. [04:59] And so that's how I ended up understanding or getting a feeling, a sense for the inner dimension of change that we needed. [05:07] That's where I am currently working with the inner development goals on really trying to give that change a language. [05:15] Magdalina Atanassova: I love that. And there are so many things. [05:17] Yeah, we really can be just circling that question. Your answers. First of all, I have to be con on the carbon offsets. Where do you stand currently? Because carbon offsets are not, let's put it sexy anymore. [05:32] Daniel Hires: Yeah. Question is if they ever were. But there was a novelty factor, I think for sure. [05:37] I think that there are smart parts about thinking of a market based mechanism, how we approach this. [05:46] And I think there's a lot of parts that are difficult and flawed and kind of show us actually that the whole system in which this is embedded in is actually also part of the issue. [06:00] And so it's, you know, like always hard to say, like black or white is something good or bad. I think in the extremes it's clear when it's like a scam offset, when it's an HFC23 project, when it's you Know, like things that really are just exploiting the logic for money, obviously that's not good. [06:18] And on the other hand, there's cases where communities are actually getting real access to some finance to do some really good work. And that's wonderful. [06:28] And now we could also talk about carbon removal credits and like, do we, do we need any of those? And I think that's where I might be changing my mind, where I think I was a little bit more dogmatic when I was younger and thinking that this can't be part of the problem. [06:43] This is still kind of embedded in this industrial logic. [06:47] But now I think the, you know, 20, 30 years later, I'm thinking more and more, yeah, does this buy us more time at least? You know, and yeah. Is this, even if it's an imperfect solution, is this something that, you know, as much as it pains us, might help us? [07:06] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, good way to put it. Because at the end of the day, we just have to make steps forward. [07:12] Daniel Hires: Yeah, yeah. I think the important part is that we understand that this is not the solution. This is just a crutch. This is just, you know, like the spare wheel that we carry in the back of the car to get us to actually the place where we can get a real tire. [07:24] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. [07:25] Daniel Hires: And I think the danger is that we forget that, that we say, like, well, we're on the road again, you know, we can go 100, maybe we can't go 120, but it's at least we're driving. [07:34] But I think it would be very short sighted not to understand that these are solutions that are temporary and that if we want to look at the more long term perspective, we also need to broaden our view. [07:46] Magdalina Atanassova: And isn't there something with such crutches that they become comfortable? We get used to them. [07:53] Daniel Hires: We get used to everything. [07:55] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. So we. And this idea of comfort, I believe, is what brought us here in that kind of stage, that we are as, you know, humanity in society. With all the issues that we have, it was the constant chase of comfort and how can we avoid that? [08:14] Daniel Hires: Yeah. So good question. I think we've built a system. Right. I think, I mean, you could argue that capitalism itself is built on this idea that, you know, like, we're not creating value, we're creating comfort for people. [08:26] So it's a big question. I wish I had a better answer. But I think part of that is probably the search for meaning. And the search really, I mean, we hear it a lot these days, like impact and purpose and meaning and all of these things. [08:40] But I think if we really think about, you know, like, what is the context in which we embed our actions in and that we really get to a point where, yeah, we are a bit more in touch with our humanity, I think that could be a start. [08:58] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And I just want, for those listening that don't know the work of the Inner Development Goals, I just want to explain a little bit and please help me here. [09:09] The goal of the Inner Development Goals is to give a framework to help companies and individuals reach the UN SDGs, right. The United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, to make them a bit more tangible. [09:22] That's at least how I. Yeah, yeah. [09:24] Daniel Hires: That’s a good way to put it. [09:27] Magdalina Atanassova: Would you add anything to that or. [09:29] Daniel Hires: Yeah. So I think at the core of the IDGs is really this idea that if we want change in the world, whether it's sustainability, the SDGs, you want to talk about regeneration or a sustainability transformation. [09:43] But even beyond that, a lot of the challenges that we face today, whether it is social and political or whether it is within our organizations, they're oftentimes not just complicated, they're actually complex. [09:56] And that means that as organizations or people who are trying to change them, we need to understand what is our role in this change and how are we contributing, maybe unwillingly, to kind of maybe sabotage the change that actually we say that we want to try to enforce or try to develop. [10:16] And so I think that is really the core message of the IDGs, that if we just look at the external part, we're missing half of the picture. [10:26] And in order for us to have a conversation now, to talk about this, that's why we developed the IDG framework, in order to have something that a little bit like the SDGS allows us now to talk about. [10:40] Well, I'm actually working on my inner compass. I'm not really sure where is my true north and, you know, like, where are my values? And so I'm exploring that a bit more to be able to exchange with someone who says, like, I really understand that, you know, if I was just 10% more courageous, I could get a lot more done both within my organization. [11:03] And then even we can take the organizational perspective and say, as an organization, if we were just able to be 5% better at collaboration, oh my God, we don't need to hire five more people. [11:15] Like, the existing team could actually take care of that. [11:19] Magdalina Atanassova: So it gives me a sense that it. You're expanding beyond just sustainability, but it's more of better, more efficient operation in general. [11:31] Daniel Hires: Yeah, indeed. [11:31] Magdalina Atanassova: Be it in life or at work. [11:33] Daniel Hires: Yeah, indeed. So the idea or the motivation I think for the IDGs comes from this idea that sustainability is the biggest, most complex issue that we're facing in the world. But I think it's a nice side effect that if we are starting to equip ourselves to deal with complex issues like sustainability, a lot of the other things that are complex in our lives will be helped with that as well. [11:57] So we'll be better equipped to deal with other changes and challenges that we face. [12:03] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the idea that you can lead from any chair, meaning that you don't have to be in a leadership role to inspire change. [12:14] And this gives me the hope that that's a way to promote this whole idea of leading from any chair. [12:21] But how can companies, because I'm sure that people listening will be trying to put it into their perspective, into their own work and life. [12:30] Magdalina Atanassova: How can they take the IDGs? [12:32] Magdalina Atanassova: Can they take the IDGs? Is there a way for them to start implementing it tomorrow? What would that look like? [12:40] Daniel Hires: So I would not necessarily advocate that they have to implement the IDGs. I think we could start with the idea of understanding and valuing what inner development has to offer for us. [12:54] And so I think an easy way to start, you know, is not by coming up with big plans and you need big budgets for it, but really just challenge yourself and perhaps your team to see if you can spend five minutes every morning doing some gratitude journaling or do it in the evening and just take, I mean even if it's three minutes to start and think about three things that you are grateful today I do that. [13:16] We have a six year old daughter and I do it every evening with her. And in the beginning she was so, she hated that question, what are you grateful for? [13:23] So I reformulated and I was like, what were great things that happened to you or what, you know, like were the things you're happy about today? [13:31] But now oftentimes she even comes to me and talks about this before bedtime. And I think it's really important why that relates to inner development. I mean there's a lot of research out there that shows that for every kind of bad interaction you have with someone, like you criticize them or so you need four to five positive interactions to get back to zero. [13:53] And that's also true for ourself for a self talk that, you know, that conversation that we keep having in our heads with ourselves, like we, at least I do, I tend to like have difficult and disparaging, you know, like Comments. [14:10] And I think we need to remember that we need four times as many positive comments looking at the positive side of things and what we're grateful for in order to have a balance. [14:21] And so it's as simple as that. And if you can find a way to build that into a practice that you can do regularly, it really, I think, develops who, who you are and that can be the start. [14:34] And I think that oftentimes we can get really distracted by, you know, like the, the. Okay, we need to bring everyone in and, you know, like. Yeah, I mean, the way to get someone to reject the idea of inner development is to force them into, you know, like a training. [14:53] I mean, I guess all of us have sat in some kind of session where we're kind of coming in like this, you know, like, because someone, you know, like our boss, our friends, our partner, you know, like, forced us in and, you know, we really don't want to be there. [15:07] And so I think for me, the invitation is really just like, find whatever practice that you find meaningful and just allow yourself some space and time for that. Because I think most people, many people that I speak to, they have a sense of what would they do if they had those five extra minutes? [15:25] But they often don't allow themselves to take that time and they think it's unproductive or they think that, what is my boss going to think if I sit at my desk five minutes in the morning and just write on a piece of paper? [15:39] But I would encourage people to take those steps. [15:43] Magdalina Atanassova: Do you have a good example from your work at IDGs with the company and how they went about it? [15:51] Daniel Hires: I mean, we have a few examples and everyone is a bit unique. So earlier I talked a little bit about how IKEA is working with the framework and they're doing leadership training, I think, across the board that includes also that inner perspective. [16:06] And what I think they're doing really well is that they're trying to make this an issue that you can talk about within the company. And for that they're using the IDG framework as kind of almost a. [16:21] Yeah, a reporting back on what is the progress that you're making on your inner development. And so they don't put numbers on it and everything. It's not like, okay, I'm at 93% humility, I need to get to 96. [16:35] It's not quite like that, but it's a reflection tool. But what they really like about it is that it's third party, that it's not something that they can control because that Sensitivity, different message to the employees there, especially the young employees who are a little bit more critical these days about these kinds of corporate initiatives. [16:53] But we see it with another organization that is actually doing this with external facing stakeholders where they're trying to build some capacity with them, and they are using that as one module to try to get people to think beyond just, you know, their roles, their job descriptions and what they can do in that. [17:14] But really try to see how can we empower people to do more, but without telling them what to do. Because just like sitting in a class that, you know, you don't want to be in, if someone tells you what to do, you know, like eat less meat, fly less, I mean, that's a probably a pretty sure way to get them not to do exactly that, because we're not kids anymore. [17:38] Magdalina Atanassova: And I cannot stop putting the framework into the perspective of an event, and especially a networking event. [17:45] Daniel Hires: Yeah. [17:46] Magdalina Atanassova: Do you think it relates having an event organization, you know, encourage their staff to look at the inner development goals and then apply them and prepare, actually create better events, better networking opportunities for the delegates? [18:02] Daniel Hires: I don't have, you know, like a fixed kind of solution. You know, what does this really have to do? But I think there is something there about that human element and about taking it one step beyond this idea. [18:16] I think where sustainability a lot of times is today. First of all, we're thinking only about environmental sustainability, and in that, probably only about kind of the carbon footprint. And then we quickly get into these talks about, like, okay, what's the catering? [18:31] Like, what's this? And it feels oftentimes like we had this, like, beautiful list of how we used to work before sustainability, and now just someone's coming and crossing off these things and we're not allowed to do this anymore. [18:43] And this is now bad. And, you know, like, first of all, I think people feel, like, ashamed, or maybe not ashamed, but they feel kind of like bullied almost, you know, into doing something that they might not even 100% agree on, that this is something that is needed. [19:00] And so I think there's. There's this. Yeah. Resistance, I think, or backlash in some ways. And I think it comes from this, like, very myopic way of looking at sustainability. [19:13] And we're missing the point that it's actually an opportunity really, that if we are now asked to build a different world and really reimagine that, that it will take a little bit of, you know, pain because we get used to things, as you've mentioned, and we, you know, like to have that comfort and to do things as we did them the last week. [19:39] But there's also that excitement of trying out new things, doing, you know, going to a new country, experiencing a new place, having a new partner. I mean, you know, like, we have that very human need, I think, within us as well. [19:52] And so I think if we can tap a bit more into that, I think there's, yeah, really a lot of potential here in this. In this industry where, yeah, it is about the connection, the experiences and what happens when you bring humans together. [20:08] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And earlier today you did an exercise which I had the pleasure to participate in, and it was very emotionally charging and the room laughed it off nervously. [20:21] Daniel Hires: Yeah. [20:22] Magdalina Atanassova: Because I think nobody gathered the strength to just really crack in front of their peers. [20:29] Daniel Hires: One person did. [20:30] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. [20:30] Daniel Hires: In fact, yeah. Actually one of the younger people in the room. They were very emotional and, yeah, they went into that. But I think you're absolutely right. I see this quite often that people are laughing it off. [20:44] And that's a good thing. [20:45] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. So the exercise that you did was to divide the room into two groups. People from nowadays living in this day and age, and people from 200 years forward. [20:58] And those two groups met 100 years apart. So those that are living now had to go forward 100 years, and those that are from the future had to go back 100 years and have a conversation. [21:11] And you guided the conversation with certain questions that the future was asking the present. [21:16] Daniel Hires: Yeah. [21:17] Magdalina Atanassova: And the questions were tough. They were not accusing. Some of the questions were the future generation asking the current generation. [21:30] You saw what's happening, why didn't you act on it? And that's actually not the question. [21:36] Daniel Hires: The question was why didn't you act? The question was, how do you feel with that? And I think that channel a lot of like, what also Michael was talking about. Right. [21:48] That, you know, because I. And sorry, I just jumped in right there. But I'm like really purposefully not trying to establish any blame in there. This is not about like, ah, but you lived in this times, you should act. [22:00] You're one of the privileged people and. And all of these things that we can quickly get into, I think, especially, you know, in my activist circles. But really to start the conversation with, how does that feel? [22:11] How is that for you to be part of that? Is that, you know, really true? And so that's how we start. [22:17] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And that's a good thing that you stopped me because I think that's what stayed with me is the feeling of blame and shame, of seeing it, but not acting on it, because I was the one that had to answer to the future. [22:30] Daniel Hires: Yeah, yeah. [22:31] Magdalina Atanassova: And it was. Yeah, it was a very. It was very tough. [22:35] Daniel Hires: Yeah. [22:35] Magdalina Atanassova: Also it was very reflective, I think, for both sides because while we took our roles very seriously of past and future, I think we all had this reflection, this moment of reflection and really understanding where we are and that there is hope and there are actions we can actually take. [22:54] Yeah, they might not be easy actions, but there are actions that are available. [22:59] What are some of the lessons you've learned from doing this exercise? The extended version, because I understand this was the short version. [23:08] Daniel Hires: I think people don't talk enough about what gives them hope and what gives them strength, because that's where the exercise goes. I mean, the first one, you're right, it's a difficult question because you're confronted with, you know, like, all the bad in the world. [23:23] And, you know, then you're asked, like, how does that make you feel? You know, like, nobody comes out of it and says, you know, like, you know, rainbows and unicorns. [23:30] So that's the tough one. But I think then the questioning goes into that as a present day you're. Because obviously one of the premises that I set up the situation with is that these humans exist 200 years in the future. [23:44] We have made what. And the exercise is from Joanna Macy and what she calls the great turning that we have actually manage to shift something. So there is something, like, really hopeful in there. [23:56] And then the question is about, how did you actually get this change started? [24:01] And for me, I think this is a really powerful exercise also in imagination, in, you know, starting to think about not just, you know, like the concrete problems that we have. [24:12] You know, like, the typical way that I think we think about complicated problems or challenges is, all right, what's the problem? I'll find a solution to it. [24:21] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. [24:22] Daniel Hires: And when I talk about complexity and the complex issues and how actually sustainability seems to be more of a complex issue than just a complicated, then all of a sudden their process oftentimes looks a bit different. [24:37] I mean, Otto Sharma has this theory you that I think, like, really is. Is a great way of visualizing how, you know, we need to kind of go deep first before we can emerge on the other side with kind of new insights and new things. [24:52] And. [24:53] Yeah, that's why I think that is one of the insights I come away from that we don't have enough space for these kinds of conversations because it often feels like we'd rather numb ourselves scrolling away than to have a difficult conversation. [25:12] Including a difficult conversation with ourselves. I've seen these statistics where, yeah, rather than, you know, spending five minutes in silence on your own, you know, like, people would do all kinds of, you know, like, crazy stuff to. [25:25] To avoid that, to being alone with their thoughts. Yet, I don't know, I still remember a time when I didn't have, you know, like, a phone all the time that could just distract me at every moment. [25:36] At the bus stop, at, you know, like, wherever I was having breakfast. Like, I would have these moments where I was, you know, with my thoughts. And that wasn't always easy. [25:46] And of course, back then, I also felt that need sometimes to be, like, distracted. And I would read, you know, like, the labels of some cereal boxes or things like that. [25:57] I don't know if anyone does that these days anymore. But, yeah, I think that there's really something about kind of those conversations and, you know, this also ability to be with yourself that we don't get enough space for. [26:14] And I don't know if you've noticed, but, like, one thing that I also did was I purposefully ended the session, like, five to 10 minutes early because I wanted people not to rush to the next session. [26:24] I wanted them to be able to, I don't know, have five minutes and go to the bathroom or even if it's checking their email, you know, but that they don't feel like, all right, you know, last topic gone. [26:35] I'm rushing into something else. But that they have a little bit of time to integrate what they just heard. [26:41] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And I think to emotionally process. I needed, personally, five minutes to just emotionally process everything. [26:47] Daniel Hires: Yeah, absolutely. [26:49] Magdalina Atanassova: Do you believe that we need a systemic change moving forward? [26:54] Daniel Hires: Absolutely. I think that if we're talking about any kind of change, I think it. We need to have that systemic lens. [27:03] I mean, one of the easiest models that we have in systems thinking is this idea of the iceberg. Right. That, like, what we see on top as, like, the symptoms is often there's, like, a huge part underneath the water that is causing that. [27:19] And I think to kind of look at what is on the bottom of the iceberg, I think that will help us much more move forward than trying to, you know, rearrange the top part of the iceberg. [27:32] Magdalina Atanassova: And I believe your work with the IDGs can help us get to the root quicker. [27:38] Daniel Hires: Yeah, we hope to contribute, you know, something to that level, to that conversation. I mean, yesterday, our executive director was actually in the US in the White House, speaking to the federal chief sustainability officer of the US about, yeah, this kind of insight really being part of their sustainability strategy. [28:01] And I mean I was really happy to see that. But this is, I think the potential that we have that this conversation can be spread into the places that need to have them through something like the inner development goals that I think were quite good at, speaking a certain language that is easy, that is memorable. [28:23] There's a certain brand aspect that I think we do really well and that has gotten people interested in the things that we're talking about without making them scared. Because I think, you know, let's face it, talking about inner development, there's a lot of woo woo stuff out there, you know, like I get, you know, often the question like what meditation hand holding circle are you going to offer this time? [28:46] You know, and fair enough, I mean I think there's that out there as well. And I think people can react to, you know, that's not my cup of tea. But what we're trying to do at the IDGs is saying like, you don't need to buy into all of that. [29:00] We are a science based framework. We talk about methods that actually there is scientific research on it, that this has an effect on people and this works. And the thing is, oftentimes for scientific insights to kind of transpire into the mainstream society that can take 30, 40 years and we feel like we don't really have that time. [29:23] And so I think we're part of a larger, I think, movement that I see in the world that more and more impact people are starting to talk about the inner. [29:33] More and more inner people are also understanding that it doesn't help to just sit in my eco village while the world burns and I need to get engaged. So I think that bridge is slowly building and we're one part of that. [29:47] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And I believe events are the perfect vehicle to spread the message further. [29:53] And wrapping the conversation up, was there anything we didn't mention and we should before we end? [29:58] Daniel Hires: I think the one thing that I would like to mention about the IDG framework and I think one is when you hear inner development, people start to think quickly about themselves and inside. [30:09] And we also include the inner within organizations. So we talk very quickly about culture. And I would even argue that there is no inner development without the other, that we only develop kind of in relationship to others. [30:24] And so I mean you've seen the framework. I think there is a way to kind of maybe pigeonhole our work into the side of being and relating, but we also have collaborating and acting and that's why I did that collaboration exercise as well. [30:41] Because I think that is something that is just like really important in a lot of the organizations that we're in. And we probably all of us feel like we're pretty good collaborators. [30:51] I think even someone said it out loud in the room that this industry is, you know, like, already good. And not a single person, you know, like, really got the exercise right in the beginning, you know, like. [31:00] And I didn't either the first time I did it. You know, it's. But yeah, I think there is still a lot to learn. Not just like kind of individually, but I think most importantly collectively in our institutions, in the places where we work, where we go to school, where we hang out after work. [31:20] Because if this conversation stays, I think sandwiched somewhere between dinner time and bedtime, we're not going to get that systemic change that we need. [31:30] And so I think I've already mentioned that it is about getting into practice. Right. It can be as Easy as a 2 to 5 minute gratitude journaling in the morning. [31:42] And so I think that, yeah, we really need to watch out. Not to say that I can't do this unless it's going to, you know, like, be perfect or whatever. [31:53] Like we at the Inner Development Goals Team, we often call it, it's the perfect imperfection of the things that we're doing. And I think that for me that is quite important because that perfectionism that also comes from this mindset of we're trying to solve a technical thing, whereas we're advocating that sustainability is actually an adaptive challenge. [32:15] And so we need incremental change, we need to try out things, we need to, you know, adjust as we go along the way. And I think, yeah, that, that is something that probably feels maybe a bit natural to people working in events. [32:32] Yeah, and, and yeah, like sometimes I think, like, who am I to come here and, you know, like talk to people around complexity? I think probably event people, they know exactly what complexity means. [32:45] Bringing together, you know, more than three people at once, I think, and direct them into any direction is itself a feat of complexity. And you guys do it, you know, times a thousand. [32:57] Magdalina Atanassova: And that's why they need help. Because when they deal with such complex issues on a daily basis, adding something feels like a huge ask. Yeah, so that's why I like the fact that you mentioned that can be something small. [33:14] It doesn't have to be large, it doesn't have to be dressed in strategies and percentages and yet another goal to reach. It can be something small, targeted towards the individual. [33:26] And that would slowly but surely make steps in the right direction and inspire change in the organization and for themselves. [33:34] Daniel Hires: Yeah. And sometimes it could even be subtracting. You know, I also tend to go a little bit longer in my sessions, but it was really on purpose. After I saw yesterday also a comment made by someone about how a lot of the sessions are running over, I. [33:51] I really thought, all right, I will. I will subtract. If someone wants to know the things that I left out, they'll ask. Yeah, nobody did. But so. So that. That worked out. [34:01] Yeah, that worked out, I think. [34:03] Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, absolutely. And they can read more if they need, like I'll do. Also link your work in the show notes so the website will be easily accessible and more information if needed. [34:13] So there you go. [34:14] Daniel Hires: Wonderful. [34:15] Magdalina Atanassova: Well, thank you so much, Daniel, for the time and coming and joining us on the podcast. It was my pleasure. [34:21] Daniel Hires: Thank you, Maggie. It was nice to be here. [34:23] Magdalina Atanassova: Likewise. [34:24] Magdalina Atanassova: Thanks. If you enjoyed this episode, do give us a five star review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. For more industry insights, visit pcma.org/convene. Until next time.