Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 401 - Disavowed By The C.I.A.

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 401 - Disavowed By The C.I.A. · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: What what what.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: We bent from any sage's juice to get up the
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: true down a rabbit from the Junie my David very
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: room being mister food isn't the pure whennessy, it's raining
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: nice ship the lights the result side has never been rid.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Basting you and.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: And here we go.
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Hey, Rob and Joe, Congressman Luda.
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: Here, I just want to personally reach out, as the
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: chairwoman of the Task Force on Declassification of Federal Secrets
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: and who has been launching and conducting the investigations into
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: the declassified files on President John F. Kennedy's assassination, I
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: wanted to personally congratulate you guys on the release of
• 1:55
  Speaker 5: your four hundredth episode. It is incredibly important work that
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: you guys are doing, especially in discussing this on the
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: Lone Gunman podcast. So you have my complete respect and
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: admiration for everything that you're doing. Thank you so much,
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: and I look forward to seeing you christ soon.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: What that is not ai, ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm blushing a little bit here, Joe.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I don't blame you. Oh here?
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: Is it just me?
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's not just you? And now what a cold
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: open that was? And I just want to thank Representative
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Luna and her team David Lauren Chase, who helped facilitate
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: this very special four hundredth four hundredths woman technically present
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: to Rob after of course decades of dedication and over
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: twelve years of podcasting. You know, I can't I couldn't
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: think of a better present for you, buddy.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, turn, it's real, Bud, it is real. Yes,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: it is real. If it was just a I, we
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: would have had it last episode. But Joe being Joe,
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: we're getting it now. It's real, telling.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: You and as she a class act or what. And
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: of course we have watched and talked about the first
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: two hearings and how she conducted herself there. She probably
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: has a million different things on her desk. She did
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: not have to take time out of her day to
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: send this message to us.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Or do it at all. But yeah, yeah, and so I.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Just really want to thank her. And you know this
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: this topic kind of transcends politics. You know. JFK was
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: a Democrat. Representative lunas the Republican, we are something, it
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. We're trying to get justice, trying to get
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: justice for a beloved man, John Fitzgerald Kennedy and really
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: appreciate her effort into learning this very nuanced and complex
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: topic because it's not easy for up.
• 4:11
  Speaker 6: No, I mean, she probably went from very basic knowledge
• 4:16
  Speaker 6: to a lot of different things. And of course, ah,
• 4:23
  Speaker 6: it's very hard to get you know, taking all this
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: information at once and parse it out and figure out
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: what's real what's not. And she has gotten some things wrong,
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: but she's gotten a lot of it right.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: And you know, this whole.
• 4:35
  Speaker 6: Task force thing for declassification is bipartisan, right, you know,
• 4:39
  Speaker 6: she just happens to be leading the task force. And
• 4:45
  Speaker 6: you know, I'm glad that somebody of her caliber and
• 4:48
  Speaker 6: her ilk, her makeup is doing it. And yeah, we
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: just thank her immensely for the for the props. Like
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: you said, she didn't have to do it, and but
• 5:01
  Speaker 6: she did, and she's awesome and we respect her and
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: thank her.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: And uh, I couldn't be more thrilled.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, pretty awesome, awesome.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: We are stoked.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So that is our successful cold open.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Now, hang on, Joe, I gotta watch this again.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Hold on, man, Yeah, it again.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Sure, I mean we aren't expecting it. I gotta see
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: it again. It's only thirty seconds long. You got to
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: see it again.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: Hold on, hey, Rob and Joe.
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: Congressman Luda here, I just want to personally reach out,
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: as the chairwoman of the Task Force on Declassification of
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: Federal Secrets and who has been launching and conducting the
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: investigations into the declassified files on President John F.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Kennedy's assassination, I wanted.
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: To personally congratulate you guys on the release of your
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: four hundredth episode.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: It is incredibly important work that you guys are doing,
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: especially in discussing this on the Lone Gunman podcast.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: So you have my complete respect and admiration for everything
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: that you're doing.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, and I look forward to seeing.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: You chuys soon.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.
• 6:17
  Speaker 6: This podcast crossed those lips, Joe, Yes, she said it
• 6:22
  Speaker 6: out of her own mouth.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: No, it's uh, it's great. I've watched it maybe a
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: hundred times.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: But uh, I won't see how many I've watched it,
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: but uh, yeah, it's awesome. It feels nice man.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and well deserved, buddy. So, uh, we're gonna skip
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: the intros for tonight. You know all of you are here,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: We love you, thank you for being here. And Rob,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: why don't you kind of set the table of what
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: we'll kind of be talking about.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: Me.
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, just welcome in everybody. We are going to
• 7:05
  Speaker 6: cut right to the chase this evening and get right
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: into what we're gonna be talking about here tonight, which
• 7:11
  Speaker 6: is going to be, uh, we're gonna be talking Franks
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: just of course, and some Ross Krozier. I think Ross
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: Krozer is somebody who doesn't get looked at enough. And
• 7:23
  Speaker 6: when we say the name, you know the guy that
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: that wasn't you know, in charge of the dre before George,
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: Joe and Needs. But we're gonna take a little bit
• 7:33
  Speaker 6: of a deeper look at him because all of the
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: stuff leading up to, you know, nineteen sixty three was
• 7:42
  Speaker 6: was Ross Krozer.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: You know. Joe Needes kind of came in at the end,
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: you know, the beginning.
• 7:46
  Speaker 6: Of sixty three or even a little after and kind
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: of had to deal with all of the stuff that
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: had just happened with the DR in the between the
• 7:58
  Speaker 6: DR and the CIA.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: The drama that the Diary was creating.
• 8:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and again Frank Sturgis has nothing to do with
• 8:07
  Speaker 6: the DR or Ross Grozer or any you know, anybody
• 8:09
  Speaker 6: else like that. But Uh, these are just two separate
• 8:13
  Speaker 6: things we're gonna be looking at here this evening. So Joe,
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: if you want to kick us off as a little
• 8:19
  Speaker 6: Frank Sturgis, since he has our poster child for this.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Evening, and what a great looking what a great looking.
• 8:25
  Speaker 6: Poster child he was. That cover is smacks as the
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: kids say, you're muted, dunk.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I said, the cover is always fire. But yeah, I'm
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: gonna read a little bit from Spartacus just because it's
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: a good recap of who he was. And then I
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: have some stout yes, shout out John Sinkin, And then
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I have some documents to go through as we're going
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to try to figure out what's he in the CIA
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: was he not? What was he up to? What's was
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: he up to? Type of thing. Frank Fiorini Sturgis was
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: born in Norfolk, Virginia.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Hey, I live in Virginia.
• 9:09
  Speaker 6: That's about three or four hours away from me, though
• 9:12
  Speaker 6: it's down near Virginia Beach. Those Are you wondering where
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: Norfolk is? There's a huge naval base there.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Is there a Sturgis library anywhere near there? That's
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: a joke. I doubt it.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: I doubt it.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: December nineteen twenty four. He later moved to Philadelphia as
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: a kid, joined the Marines and served during the Second
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: World Ward in the Pacific Theater. After the war, attended
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Virginia Polytech before joining the Norfolk Police Department. In nineteen
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: forty eight, he became the manager of the White Horse Tavern,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: he also served. He also went back into.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: The army fifty two hosts.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Followed by a spell as the owner manager of the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Top Hat nightclub in Virginia Beach There You Go. In
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: fifty six, Sturgis moved to Cuba. He also spent time
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: in Mexico, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Panama, Hondurs. He got around.
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  Speaker 3: Fifty eight good stuff is Joe fifty eight.
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  Speaker 1: He made contact with the Central Intelligence Agency at the
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: US Consulate in Santiago, Cuba. Over the next few years
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: he worked as an undercover agent for the agency. His
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: control officer was Sam Jennis j e Ni. Sturgis also
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: became involved in gun running in Cuba. On July thirtieth,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight, Sturgis was arrested for a legal possession
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: of arms. However, he was released without charge. Sucks. There
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: are some evidence that in nineteen fifty nine, Sturgis had
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: contact with Lewis McWillie, the manager of Tropicana Casino, which
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: of course he was in Cuba.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: In that time, also had to Martin Alias Yes.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: After Fidel Castro gain control of Cuba, Sturgis formed the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: anti Communist Brigade. In his book counter Revolutionary Agent, Hans
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Timber claims that the organization was being financed by a
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: dispossessed hotel and gambling owners aka the mafia, who operated
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: under Batista. According to a declassified FBI documents, Sturgis participated
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: in the anti Castro leaflet dropping raid over Cuba with
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Pedro diaz Lands, former chief of the Cuban Air Force
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: in October fifty nine who later defected and became a
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: big name Cuban exile. And we're going to hear what
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: diaz Lands Pedro has to say about Sturgis in a
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: few minutes here. He then allegedly became involved with Maurita
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Lorenz who was having an affair with Fidel Castro. In
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: January nineteen sixty took part they both took part in
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  Speaker 1: a failed attempt to poison Castro. It is also believed
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: that Sturgis was involved in helping the CI organize the
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Bay of Pigs invasion, also a member of Operation forty.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I know you guys talked about that on the last
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Quick Hit, so I'm not going to go into that.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: December sixty one, Border Control of Miami reported Sturgis for
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Orini was involved in a CI operation that was trying
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: to overthrow Castro. An investigation carried out by the CIA
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: suggested the operation was being financed by Sergio Rojas. He
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: also was good friends with Alexander Rourke, who was very
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: closely associated with Sturgis. Interviewed by the FBI in June
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: of sixty two in connection with flights over Cuba where
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: they were dropping pamphlets from planes.
• 13:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Rourke would later go missing and himing and the
• 13:14
  Speaker 6: boys would go looking for him, that he was their buddy.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah. Work stated that Fiorini in this interview
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: has instructions that on these flights, if a wrestler stopped
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: us to notify officers that they should telephone a number
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: which is the number of a CIA office in the
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Miami area, guessing j M Wave. Fiorini has also been informed,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: according to Work, that if anyone arrests him, CIA will
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: get him out. End quote. So Rourke later goes missing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: That's another subject for another day. But you kind of
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: summed it up great there. And let's get into a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: couple of documents on him, because we obviously know frankster
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: just is of Watergate fame, right, which happened in June
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: seventy two. There's an interesting document I found rob which
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I guess is from the Watergate committee, and you could
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: probably guess how it goes. The CIA is denying any
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: contact with him ever.
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: Right, as they should, as they should as they didn't.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: All right, let me share this screen.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I need to orchestrate this for you. Let me
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: pay attention.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's.
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: It's in the background there, you get right.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. In response to so this is about a little
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: more than a year after Watergate scandal happens. In response
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: to Daniel Schultz's letter September seventy three requesting clarification of
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Frank A. Sturgis connection or association with the CIA, agency
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: records were again reviewed with the following results. There is
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: no evidence that mister Sturgis, officially keyword there, participated in
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the Bay of Pigs invasion.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: The title has a copy of his signed participation letter.
• 15:39
  Speaker 6: I don't know I participated in the Bay of Pig Sincerely,
• 15:43
  Speaker 6: Frank Sturgists.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there is some controversy with this and whether
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: he actually did, and honestly, I don't know the answer.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: Well I know the answer, what is it? Well? Keep reading.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Attaches a copy of an article which appeared in the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Washington Post May fourteenth, nineteen sixty one, concerning columnist Jack
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Anderson's interview of Frank Fiorini Sturgis, in which Sturgis tells
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: of his role in the Bay of Pigs invasion and
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: the activities that mister Sturgis might have been engaged in
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: the relation in relation to the Bay of Pigs invasion
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: is in no way connected or authorized by the CIA.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Also attached or articles by Jack Anderson which appeared in
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the Washington Post, Miami Harold August sixty two in relation
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to Sturgis's activities against the Cuban government, and another article
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: published in the Miami Herald on sixteen September nineteen sixty three,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: which shows that Sturgis was acting without authority of the
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: US government.
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean he was actively recruiting for Brigade twenty
• 16:52
  Speaker 6: five oh six. And if you think that he wasn't
• 16:54
  Speaker 6: there at the Bay of Pigs, you were wrong, folks.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: He was. He was definitely there. Yeah.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Our files indicate that mister Sturgis was friendly with persons
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: who were contacts of CIA, while mister Sturgis may have
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: not been aware that these persons were contacts of the CIA.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Mm hm. Mister Sturgis was not involved in operations, sponsored, approved,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: or funded by this agency.
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: This is what you call disavowed by the CIA. Hence
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: the name of this episode, folks.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, cover your ass in full form right here.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Right, Oh yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Most of this information on Sturgis available to this agency
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: is contained in FBI reports concerning his numerous exile activities.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Now, Joe, let me tell you, h.
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: There were a lot of FBI files, seventy five thousand
• 17:55
  Speaker 6: of them to be exact on Frank Sturgis and his activities.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: A lot.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, frea continue.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Sir, Okay. I think this is a couple months later,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: following its information from further review of Fury's official file
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and response to Schultz's inquiry to the agency, there are
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: four volumes to feur aees to a one file and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I can tell you that a volume is a big thing.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure it is thick there.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I went through boxes at the archives. A
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: volume is a big like multiple folders.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: The majority of its content being reports from the FBI
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: dated from fifty eight through April sixty nine. Agency information
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: includes a cable from Santiago de Cuba dated John Nerary seven,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: ninety fifty nine, stating feor AINI claims to be chief
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: of the twenty sixth July arm buyer Miami and will
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and willing to cooperate one hundred in supplying information.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: HM.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Cable stated it's possible if you're any may lose value
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: to the rebels, but believe worthwhile CIA endorses his staying on.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Hm hm.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Hm, So are they like playing kind of like footsee
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: being like, well, he wasn't technically an agent, paid informant,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: paid asset or whatever you want to call it.
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: He's off the books. I mean, this is a serious operator.
• 19:43
  Speaker 6: This is not like, this is not like a Joe
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: Nides or Crozier. Even this is worse like we'll not
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: worse but different, yes.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, not in the propaganda.
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: You're not going to find a paper trail of them
• 19:58
  Speaker 6: paying Frank Frierini or Frank thirtis payroll, you know document, And.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I think based on the previous document I read, they
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: knew that the agency, so they're not why admit it.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: And this is nineteen seventy three, so this is even
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: before the Church Committee. So I find this very a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: very interesting document and I think it kind of sums
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: up his what he was up to in a sense.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: So let's continue. Oh, let me let me go back here.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: They replied that Fiorini had been under FBI investigation for
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: possible Registration Act violations, and Base should deal with Fiorini
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: under strict redacted cover and not make any connections which
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: might later be construed as US government approval for his activities.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Wish to reiterate here that Fiorini was never employed by
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: the CEA. Okay, again the wording employed. I can't believe
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: that paid. Yeah, I don't know. I think they're being
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: really cute with it here. S they are in a
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: lot of these documents we read. The following is worthy
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: of note. Fiorini was involved in the November December sixty
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: one leaflet dropping flights over Cuba. This is what DIA's lands,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and I believe with Rourke as well. The FBI queried
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: CIA about allegations that the flights by Fiorini and Urke
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Alexander Rourke Junior were entirely supported by CIA, with CIA
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: arranging air sea rescue, and then all of Fiorini's actions
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: were known to the CIA Miami and his activities being
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: done on CAA instructions headquarters. CIA was satisfied allegation is
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: not true. Sure they were satisfied, but troubled in view
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: that fact. And then the fact that fear Any was
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: in contact with CI Rep. Florida who used the name
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Barker Bernard Barker possibly who supposedly gave fear Barker.
• 22:23
  Speaker 7: Of the prices right, yes, and bitch, yeah that's great.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: I be going more.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Quote and my favorite joke I make about Bob Barker
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: as you know how they used to spend the wheel. Yeah,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: what's the highest thing you could get a dollar? Ninety nine?
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Technically I think, mm hmm. Well he died in ninety nine,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I think a year or two ago, so he spun
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: the wheel correctly. Sorry for that phone number. Let me
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: go back Barker, who supposedly gave Fierini phone number for
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: CIA Miami office. Fiorini was to call this number if
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: he was arrested or stopped on flights and CIA would
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: quote get him out. These Cuban overflights were not authorized
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: by CIA, and the FBI was alerted to fact it
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: was not CIA operation, of course.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: But they could get him out.
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: Yes, And note to self all the shit the FBI
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: had on this dude. He didn't spend a day in
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: jail until waterdeep, right, and they had to do something
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: then because it was so public.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Barker was generally known in Miami
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Cuban exile community as a CIA source. Since Barker was
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a close friend of Fiorini. Barker, shortly before the Bay
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: of Pigs invasion, was asked by CIA to attempt to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: obtain from Fiorini information concerning his activities. Barker met with
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Fiorini several times a month for Fall of sixty one
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: to July of sixty two.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: Okay, and again his handler is Sam Jennie. Yeah, who is.
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: Jose Joaquin Jose Perdomo San Jennis mm hmm, Okay, that's
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: that's his FBI handler.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: By the way more on him.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Later, Barker insisted, when queried by CI officer, that he
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: never revealed classify info or operational data, including jam wave
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: phone numbers, to Fiorini. Fiorini told Barker that the leaflet
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: op operation was conceived by Sergio Rojas, Headquarters Cable dam
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: jam wave dated July sixty two, stated that Rojas had
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: been non operational since February sixty two. Okay, so now
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: let's hear what Pedro Diaz Lands had to say on
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Frank Sturgis. And just a little for those who might
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: not know who Pedro Dilla's Lands, I kind of alluded
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: to it earlier. Born in Cuba nineteen twenty six, died
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty eight, Miami Shocker was chief of the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Revolutionary Air Force of Cuba under Fidel Castro.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: Did you say they died in twenty twenty eight eight.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Two thousand and eight?
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, Sorry, I'm gonna say, do you have
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: a crystal ball or something? What are we doing here?
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: No?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: I continue?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, but it was chief of the Revolutionary Air Force
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: in Cuba under Castro before and after the Cuban Revolution.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: He later became disaffected with Castro defecting to the United
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: States and attempting to overthrow him. So he was born
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: to a rich family. Blah blah blah. He joined Fidel
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Castro in nineteen fifty seven.
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: Like I said, later, he's been accused of being one
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: of the assassins.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so on July fifty nine, it didn't take
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: much time. Diaz arrived on US shores and requested political asylum.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: On July tenth, he testified before the United States Senate
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Subcommittee on Internal Security in a closed session. Later a
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: few days later, appeared in an open session in October
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: fifty nine. A couple months later, he carried out one
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: of the most notorious acts, flying a twin engined bomber
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: reported as a B twenty five or B twenty six,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: departing from Florida over Havana while dropping anti communist leaflets
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: with his brother Marcos DIA's lands.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: By night.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: April nineteen sixty, he was recruited by the CIA and
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: became a member of Operation forty. You know a group
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: of cioperatives who specialized in carryouts, carrying out secret anti
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Castro assassination missions and acts of sabotage.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: And you know he.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Goes on and on, but I just want to lay
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that table. So let's see what Pedro Diaz Lands has
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: to say about Sturgis. Diaz Lands was interviewed and furnished
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the following information September eleventh, nineteen sixty one. Diaz, one
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: time head of the Cuban Revolutionary Air Force under Castro,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: fled from Cuba and denounced Castro and presently resides in
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: exile in Miami with his family. Diaz says he has
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: been acquainted with Frank Anthony Sturgis for several years. In fact,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Sturgis was an officer in the Cuban Revolutionary Air Force
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: when that organization was headed by Diaz. Diaz described Sturgis
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: as an ardent anti communist, but an individual who was
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: primarily concerned with having a good time in life. He
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: was a ladies man rob.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And you never met a good time. He uh, he
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: didn't like.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Diaz stated that all of the newspaper stories which have
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: been printed concerning Sturgis have been grossly exaggerated, and those
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: were the Herald and the other couple of articles that
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: that I referenced in the earlier previous document here. He
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: said he knows that Sturgis, during the early part of
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: sixty one, had accompanied a group on a boat which
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: was going to Cuba. However, the group was unsuccessful in
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: landing in Cuba, and he knew for a fact that
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: the leader of the expedition was a Victor Panaque, known
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: as Comandante Diego, had told him the expedition was unsuccessful
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: in landing, Dias.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Said, of pigs, shit right here, So.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Diaz said an article had appeared in a newspaper
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: or magazine in which Sturgis had said the landing had
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: been and successful. However, Diaz said that after the admission
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: by Penque, he confronted Sturgis with this information and Sturgis
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: admitted to the admitted of the group had not actually
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: gone on shore. Diaz described Sturgis as an individual who
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: has always wanted to appear to be a hero. Has
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: sought and gained a lot of publicity which has helped
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Sturgis to accomplish one purpose, and that is to be
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: popular with the theme sex.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Now, look, I'm sure this this really bothered.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 29:40
  Speaker 6: They're just not to be able to make it to
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: shore for the Bay of Pigs. But it's probably why
• 29:47
  Speaker 6: he survived the Bay of Pigs is because his boat
• 29:50
  Speaker 6: did not make it to shore. But I'm sure he
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: told a lot of people that he did and they did,
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: you know, and then he did stuff, but he actually
• 29:58
  Speaker 6: didn't make it to shore for the Bay Pigs. But
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: that's probably why he's still alive well into the nineties though.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Right, And when we talk about the grift, which we
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: have talked about a lot before, he was also trying
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: to raise money. He what's the group that he did.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: He did it with Felix Felipe, Felix Rodriguez and another
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: bad Pigs guy, the Cuban exiles of No, what is it.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I have it somewhere. But he was
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: also trying to make money off this too.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, communist brigade or something like that.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was something like that. Thank you.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I mean they all sound the safe.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: And again he's down there in the ship like he
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: was fighting in the hills of Cuba with Castro. Yeah,
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: you know originally and then you know, once Can't came
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: to power and he turned into this communist dictator. That's
• 31:03
  Speaker 6: when the tad turned a little bit on everybody's view
• 31:07
  Speaker 6: of Castro.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: But right, because it wasn't always apparent that he was
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: going to be super pro communist right initially during the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: early later mid days of the revolution. If you will, yeah,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Diaz stated that he read the article which we talked
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: about earlier in the Parade magazine written by Jack Anderson,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: and whereas the article referenced to Sturgis as an individual
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: who had participated in the Cuban invasion of April sixty one,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Diaz knew that Sturgis had not participated in this invasion.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Diaz reported that some weeks ago he had learned that
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: various individuals in Miami that Sturgis was attempting to form
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: a group of anti Castro fighters. He said that for
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: a while in Miami there were perhaps twenty or thirty
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: individuals who claimed to be members of Sturgis's group. However,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: they had no money, were not organized, became hungry, disbanded,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: and to the best of his knowledge, all the individuals
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: who had come from all across the country to join
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Sturgis's organization had returned to their homes. Hashtag fail yes,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Diaz says said that he knew of no recruiting activities
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: on the part of Sturgis. He did not know the
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: name of the organization, which, by the way that sentence
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: contradicts the previous long sentence, it might not have been successful,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: but maybe he didn't have knowledge of it. I guess
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: who knows that he did not even know the name
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: of the organization which Sturgis had previously attempted to organize,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: and that to the best of his knowledge, the organization
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: had never really developed, but had failed almost simultaneously with
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: in it him to organize. So, Diaz continued, he felt
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: that Sturgis is quote stupid, end quote, and that he
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: has been quote used end quote by people such as
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the columnist Jack Anderson in printing the gross exaggerations of
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: claims at attributed to Sturgis in his anti Cash Show campaign.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Them fighting words, Yeah and again.
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: Again they had falling out, you know, as he would.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, you have to take that into consideration.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, he's a hating.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Diaz said that several days previously, Sturgis had come by
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: his residence and visited with him for a short while
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and stated he had been working for a dry cleaner,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: but he had quit his job. He said, Sturgis did
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: not mention anything about income, and he does not know
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: how Sturgis is managing to live aka he has no
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: income alex official income. He said, is living with a
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: girl who has been working as a stripper in Miami Beach,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: identified or as Jeanette, whose last name he did not know.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: It's no queen of Miami Jeannette.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Diaz says that some Max Villa, who had been a
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: member of Sturge's group previously at one time, participated in
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the unsuccessful invasion of Cuba in April sixty one. However,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: he was seized by Cuban authorities after parachuting from an
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: airplane after the unsuccessful campaign. So that's interesting. Sturgis is
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: kind of sending on everyone else that he's recruiting, but
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: not really him, although he likes to think he's a hero,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: right as Diaz lands, and I give a lot of
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: credence to Pedro DIA's lands.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: I think he's just hating. I think he's a little
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: chilly Joe, if you will.
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: Of.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Sturgis. I mean we're talking like sixty one.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Right, We're talking good time Frankie here. I mean, come on, man.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: He was jealous of the women.
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: No, I think he was just hating on him because
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: he's American.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: And getting credit for things that a lot of these
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: other guys are getting.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Ignored for newspaper articles written about him, multiple I think
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: three of them. Yeah. So this is another document from
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: December nineteen sixty on Frank Sturgis. This is an FBI document,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: but the CIA has no objection to declassification, so it's
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: obviously kind of intertwined here. Telephone number trip ascertained to
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: belong to Frank Sturgis.
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: You know, it would be funny, Joe, if we called
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: this telephone number live on the show and answer Frank Sturgis.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I doubt it's selectively. It'll probably probably be some role
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: lady from Florida.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Hello, Uh, it's Frank there. Frank you never heard of him? Yeah?
• 36:32
  Speaker 7: You never.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: It could be a good exercise that, at least it
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: will be funny. Sturgis owns a house and MM and
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I can't figure out what MM means, and it's it's
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: referenced a bunch of times here, so I apologize about
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: that has a total of about twenty young Americans and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Cuban residing there preparing for an independent invasion of Cuba.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: This group has is it mbash one rifles carbines for
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: forty five caliber pisals uniforms. Sturgis claims to have automatic weapons,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: but not as residents. Blah blah blah. His group does
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: infantry work. Sturgis claims his group will leave MM in
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: one c R two weeks on this boat to attack Cuba.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: During the past three weeks, Surgis has recruited about five
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Americans from groups maintained by Rolando Ross, former Cuban Senator.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Surgis has been contacting another Skafuza, former Cuban product minister,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: for a donation of money to buy two boats to
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: transport this group to Cuba. So far, the Senator has
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: not contributed. Last week, Sturgis men were hungry and solicited
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: food donations from Cuban grocery stores in MM. I don't
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: know if that's Miami, that's my guess.
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: But yeah, that would be my guest too. They're obviously
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: not lay in Miami.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're obviously not living like Roca and.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: Silva Josha has Metro Miami.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's thank you. Josh. Sturgis has been seen
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: at different Cuban hangouts solicious soliciting, banking, backing some more
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Skuffuzery mentioned in telegram contacted at Metro Miami allegedly telephone
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: requests an interview to be postponed to tomorrow morning. I
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: don't know why I put this in the thing, Sorry
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: about that. So this is the CIA file on Sturgis.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: It goes back to nineteen sixty, goes through nineteen sixty two.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure how many of these files are FBI
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: related files.
• 39:04
  Speaker 6: I think they go earlier than sixty because I see
• 39:06
  Speaker 6: a fifty nine right there.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: But oh yeah, yeah, fifty nine. I'm sorry that they're
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: not in order, and I'm sure they even went back
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: further than that. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, but this is on
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the official whatever.
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: So if you think that they see I didn't know
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: everything there was to know about Frank Thurtis, they did, right.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: And then we're going to get really just high one
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: slide on that. That's it wrong for me to end
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: on Maria Lorenz And this is a fascinating story. We're
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: not going to get into it tonight.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Really maybe part two.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe part two, That's what I was thinking. And I
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: had the pleasure of meeting Maria's daughter Monica and the
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: sixtieth anniversary she gave a really great present to We
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: actually have a picture of me pretending to be a
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: suppruter and her holding me up because you know your
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: boy does fall sometimes. But really nice girl, lady, not girl.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: On April twenty fourth, nineteen seventy five, again this is
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: probably a Church committee, research was conducted in an attempt
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to locate a file in the name of subject. Officer
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: security indices were searched and no file were located in
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: the name of subject Marie the lorenz As being a
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: CIA agent. This is again just what this document is saying.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Officer security in disease were searched in the following names,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Berard Lawrens in. The file of Frank Anthony Sturgis was
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: also reviewed and no reference was found to subject.
• 40:48
  Speaker 6: But again this is you know, allegedly Sturgis recruited her
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: on his own and gave her the mission of killing Fidel.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: Again plausible deniability.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: The I a right, and of course she cannot go
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: through with it. And you know there's a later story
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: about her and a kind of mortarcade, if you will.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: A caravan, I guess is a better term, from Miami
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: right to Dallas before the assassination.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, there is a story there.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: There is a story there, So you could take that
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: down now, rob as that is my last thing on Sturgist.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: But I do have some things on Krozier. Maybe you don't.
• 41:42
  Speaker 6: Crosier, and then if you have anything to add, maybe
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: that would be a good idea.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Well that's what I was saying. I was saying that
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: were at the beginning of the bar point.
• 41:51
  Speaker 8: So huh oh, and.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: What happened to you, Joe?
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I lost you for a second. Sorry, okay,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: So James, just the thing, you know, I didn't have
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the most time in the past couple of days. The
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: problem is when you search Fiorini Sturgis documents, you get
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: like ten thousand results. It's hard to find. So I'm
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: going to follow up on some things on.
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: And again it's mostly FBI documents that were given to
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: the CIA, right, so they disavowed start just officially that
• 42:48
  Speaker 6: there's gonna be There is no CIA documents out there
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: that exist that were created internally.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Specifically.
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: I mean, there were some specific about him, but nothing operational,
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: you know, to a one file, Yeah, that's about it.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: But of course to a one file doesn't mean operational file,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: like like you're an agent, right, just because you have
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: a too one file, you could just be a person
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: of interest. And yeah, they they pretty much said, yeah,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: we he was not doing his own thing, you know,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: we have nothing to do with him. And whether that's
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: true or not, I'm not quite sure. I'm pretty sure.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that it's not sure. But there is no
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: document directly relating his CIA.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Employment, if you will, well, actually, Joe, there is. Oh,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: and here it is. It's one of two that that
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: I know of that exists.
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: So here we go. I will surprise this subject. Sturgis
• 44:08
  Speaker 6: Frank Anthony fier Ani Aka On twenty July seventy six.
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: Now that this is, of course much later in the timeline,
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: the SAG delivered certain materials to the Office of the
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: General Council relative to a request from the DOJ from
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: original materials relating to it t Chile. Now, this of
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: course is the beginnings of the HSCA. They're starting to dig, Okay.
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: Among the materials given to the OGC was the number attached,
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: which was retrieved from a Watergate file caption seven four.
• 44:45
  Speaker 6: Material at the time of delivery to the OGC, with
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: a concurrence of the Director of Security was pointed out
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: that the document is unclassified and contains a statement by
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: the originator, James R.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: Schlessinger, a former DCI.
• 45:00
  Speaker 6: That, in his discussion with William Colby, Colby stated, and
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: I quote Sturgis has not been on the payroll for
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: a number of years.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: End quote. Okay, Okay.
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: It was pointed out to OGC that this statement is
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: in direct conflict with prior agency public releases concerning Sturgis,
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: to the effect that he has never been connected with
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: the agency in any way.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: Sincerely, Jerry G. Brown, the current DC, sag.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So it's pretty definitive.
• 45:34
  Speaker 6: Just saying, but again, you're not going to find anything
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: in the CIA files directly relating to mister Sturgis except
• 45:43
  Speaker 6: for either denying that he was there or this document
• 45:47
  Speaker 6: saying quoting William Colby saying that he hadn't been on
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: the payroll for a number of years. And I believe
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: there's one other that exists out there that kind of
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: alludes to the fact that he was, you know, one
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: of these cutouts for them that they were using to
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: get things done, paying off the books kind of thing.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Right, And when you go through the countries that he
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: was in Honduras, Guatemala, like three more South American countries
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and fighting with Castro. Why would you be one, you know,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: an asset of some kind payroll or not.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: He ain't doing all this ship for free. Down there,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: I tell you that, no.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: No, he needs to support his lifestyle of bagging batties.
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: So and check this out. This is a crowd fun request,
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: an old one from muck Rock trying to trying to
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: raise money to get the seventy five, two hundred and
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: fifty three page FBI file on Frank stur Just sent to.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Them seventy five thousand.
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: It would cost twenty six hundred dollars for this file.
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: They raised two hundred and one. Down here at the
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: bottom right corner. What it says is Frank Sturgis was
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: more than just a Watergate burglar. His seventy five thousand
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: page FBI files more than four times as long as
• 47:12
  Speaker 6: the FBI file on Watergate, and twice as long as
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: the combined Watergate and Kennedy assassination FBI files. Yeah you
• 47:21
  Speaker 6: heard that right. Most of these pages have never been released,
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: and if they were released, it was in a highly
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: redacted form. The file covers his paramilitary activits in Cuba,
• 47:31
  Speaker 6: his ties to assassins and plots, accusations about involvement in
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: the Kennedy assassination, and meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald. Say
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: what his confirmed CIA employment, Say what his involvement in
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: the break in of the Chilean embassy that was itt
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: Chili ordeal, and possibly much more so?
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, not to mention he's flying CO pilots, not
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: him flying. He's just in the cold pilot seat with
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Pedro DIA's lands with Alexander Rourke, leaf flitting operations, and
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: like you said, who knows what else?
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a whole lot of shite here, Joe.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: And then when you, of course think about the company
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: he kept in Watergate, I mean it's.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Hard to it's sus Mary, sus extremely susy.
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: And this is a very popular conspiracy theory with some
• 48:36
  Speaker 6: folks out there. Some people say it's horseshit, some people
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: say there might be something here.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: You're not going to say the tramps, are you?
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: No? Man? No?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, good? Good?
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: Don't you know me by now? I know?
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Just making sure you said popular conspiracy theory?
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So France surg was led to be one
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: of the tramps. I'm joking. Calm down.
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: Surgeons's career could begin in Cuba before Castro has rise
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: to power. According to Sturgis, he began making contact with
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: the FBI and CIA in fifty nine.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: By sixty one he was.
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: Opposed to Castro and became involved in the failed Bay
• 49:17
  Speaker 6: of Pigs invasion and other CI sponsored and tolerated anti
• 49:21
  Speaker 6: Castro activities, and according to Sturgis, as Joe mentioned earlier,
• 49:25
  Speaker 6: his CIA control officer was Jose Joaquin San Jennis per
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: Domo aka Sam Jenis. The agency guys continued to deny this,
• 49:35
  Speaker 6: but it's known that Jennis didn't have a relationship with
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: the agency.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: What a horrible pseudonym. By the way, you're just like
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: breaking up his middle to.
• 49:44
  Speaker 6: The last name, right, yeah and adding an M in
• 49:49
  Speaker 6: seven n. I mean, they're really smart here. Some of
• 49:56
  Speaker 6: the papers relating to him are still being withheld in
• 49:58
  Speaker 6: the archives as part of the JFKs ass Nasan records.
• 50:00
  Speaker 6: Blah blah blah blah blah. But the reason I mentioned this, Joe,
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: is because in nineteen was it eighty or eighty one,
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: when John Lennon got shot, there was a Cuban exile
• 50:15
  Speaker 6: by the name of Jose Perdomo, who was the doorman
• 50:19
  Speaker 6: at the Dakota in New York City where John Lennon lived,
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: and who was there on duty when John Lennon got shot.
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: Now that's pretty suss I would say, right, you know,
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: there's a lot of oh, well, you know, it can't
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: be the same guy, or yeah, I'm sure he's still
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: you know, undercover CIA as late as nineteen.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: Eighty eighty one, blah blah blah. Right, well, uh.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Right, and when do you think about it in the
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: lens of John Lennon. I don't want to call him
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: communist or Marxist, but only someone who had leftist views. Yeah,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: you could, and a Cuban exile is there, and that
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: could be a coincidence. I'm not saying anything but sus Yeah.
• 51:14
  Speaker 6: And you know, when when some of these politically active
• 51:19
  Speaker 6: people like Lenin are getting so big and they have
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: such a huge influence over the population with what they
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: say and do and protesting things, and there's a lot
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: of power these people have, and there's a lot of
• 51:34
  Speaker 6: reasons to want them gone.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: If the people in control want to do.
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: Things antithetical to you know, someone of Lenin's ilk and
• 51:46
  Speaker 6: his thought processes, and you know, imagine all the people,
• 51:51
  Speaker 6: you know, whatever the hells tomy.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: And but back to Sturgis real quick.
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: There's allegations Scourgions was in play well into the eighties.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: In fact. Yeah, so let's check this out.
• 52:12
  Speaker 6: In October nineteen eighty in a meeting at the Hotel Sheridan,
• 52:15
  Speaker 6: where I participated, Frank Sturgis, Villefred Navarro, General Diego Nettu,
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: and Colonel Vinjas now did where it is, so sorry,
• 52:27
  Speaker 6: I gotta scroll it like this. It's a very long
• 52:29
  Speaker 6: thing where there are obstacles to arms trafficking that must
• 52:34
  Speaker 6: be removed. Then there is another jet also at the
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: Sherats in the hotel where, among others hang on Joe,
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: I got to reset the typewriter ribbon. Colonel Oliver North
• 52:49
  Speaker 6: and I are taking part. Okay, we've all heard of
• 52:52
  Speaker 6: him right from the eighties, you know the Iran contry deal, right, Yeah.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: But anyway, I'll spare you the scrolling here. But the.
• 53:05
  Speaker 6: Long and the short of this is that Frank Sturgis,
• 53:13
  Speaker 6: according to according to all this, allegedly blew a plane
• 53:22
  Speaker 6: up with some folks on it, right, and this again.
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: This is in the nineteen eighty and we're talking about
• 53:32
  Speaker 6: things going down with Iran Contra and Nicaragua, stuff like that.
• 53:37
  Speaker 6: So even up into the eighties, sturgis he just can't
• 53:41
  Speaker 6: stay out of the game, right.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: And that's late fifties somewhat early mid sixties, depending on
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: when in the eighties.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Hold on, Joe, what's what's going on here with our deal?
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Not that old, you know, late fifties early You can
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: imagine him still being involved in skuffoozerie.
• 54:04
  Speaker 6: If you will, right, Yeah, what happened to our background
• 54:09
  Speaker 6: where it's all funky?
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: Hold on?
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: It looks fine to man.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: You don't see the blue on the left side.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: No really, Oh, from the power point? Didn't remove her
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: from not.
• 54:23
  Speaker 6: From the power point. Hold on a second, hold the phone.
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: There's some skuffousie abound.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Hold on, there always.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: A wolly day. What is what is going on here?
• 54:38
  Speaker 9: Let me look at some comments in the meantime, since
• 54:42
  Speaker 9: I haven't looked at the comments section, we will have.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: To rename the show the Luna Gunman Podcast. Hey, I'm
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: down to Robins and she said to see you soon,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: So maybe we'll see her soon. Maybe we'll save that
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: for five hundred.
• 55:04
  Speaker 6: Oh my god, what is going on? Okay, there we go,
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: there you go allegedly. But yeah, so that's just some
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: things on mister Frank Sturgis, and we'll get more into
• 55:21
  Speaker 6: him went in part two and the yeah, involvement in
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: the Kennedy assassination and other things as well.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot more documents. I just you know,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: when you search documents and there's eight thousand of them,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to go through everyone in In
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: a few days, I heard that lands and Sturges formed
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: Umcopangna and called themselves a little Panos the Pines. Curious
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: name for a rebel group.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: I thought that meant little Dix. I could be wrong. Nothing, noos,
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I'm on my best behavior.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I'm on my best behavior here for the Luna.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Oh they're done watching by now I know we're safe.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Uh, James said, there's an interesting story about Sturgis's romantic
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: involvement during his Berlin tour with a Hungarian aristocrat who
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: may have been an an Israeli agent. Maybe I'm not
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: familiar with it, but I wouldn't be surprised.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: Hey you never know, Yeah, never know.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: So yeah, why don't you hold on, let me just
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: check one more thing. I don't think Sturgis Worth been
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: involved in the playing ball and James says a couple
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: people were convicted in that. Well, it wasn't really a
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: oh that bombing in the eighties.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: That's not that's not what their star witness said.
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: But again, all this stuff's alleged and debatable, and you know,
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: blah blah blah.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Right, right, but he definitely was leafleting over Cuba.
• 57:16
  Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, he was hanging out the window and throwing
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: paper airplanes at all the.
• 57:21
  Speaker 7: People on the ground.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: Hey, it's a fun time, Joe.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: That would have been kind of fun.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: For fun time.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: We look a long time, or just like emptying out
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: like big bags out of the window and letting the
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: wind take them.
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: All right, apparently my screen share has disappeared. I have
• 57:52
  Speaker 6: to re add it.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Man, I'm just gonna put money up for a second.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: All right. Can you see my screen shared though? Is
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: it working now? I mean, god forbid, you have the
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: show up?
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: Can you see a document on your screen?
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Yes? I can. I just had to edit my lighting. Okay,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: I had to take out mycrophones to do so.
• 58:23
  Speaker 6: All right, here we have Joe, we're gonna get it.
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: Let's talk some Ross Krozer, now, okay, and we'll get
• 58:33
  Speaker 6: into more about who he was.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: But we're gonna set the table a little bit here. First.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: There's your RIFF number at the top. A holes ah.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: And this is the most unredacted copy is memorandum for
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: the record.
• 58:50
  Speaker 6: Again, this is an internal CI document possible d r
• 58:53
  Speaker 6: E animus towards President Kennedy. And again this this tracks
• 58:58
  Speaker 6: with kind of what we've been saying here these past
• 59:02
  Speaker 6: couple shows about the DRE really not liking Kennedy and
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: possibly being behind the assassination and the setup of Oswald
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: for the hit. So let's see what they had to
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: say in nineteen sixty seven. And the reason they're bringing
• 59:23
  Speaker 6: this document out is because of the Garrison investigation. They're
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: worried that he's going to uncover something. Okay, So let's
• 59:37
  Speaker 6: see here. This memorandum makes record a collection, a recollection
• 59:41
  Speaker 6: which has been brought to mind in recent weeks since
• 59:45
  Speaker 6: my return from Yugo Slavia in late November sixty six.
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: And this is from a CIA officer named Calvin Thomas.
• 59:57
  Speaker 6: And again it's just a memorandum for the record. In
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 6: spring sixty one, upon returning from Berlin, Joe I was
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 6: assigned to JM Wave one of the cases on which
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 6: I worked from there, shortly before my reassignment to head
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 6: Quartets in late summer sixty three.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Hey, there's a timing there. Ray concerned funding.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 6: Of overseas elements of the DRE, which had its main
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 6: office in Miami. The case officer for this group during
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 6: this period was mister Ross Krozier, since resigned or actually
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 6: since fired. We'll get there, I promise. I believe that
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 6: it is this group, the DRE, which has been referred
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 6: to in investigations in the President's assassination as the Cuban
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: Student Directorate who's New Orleans representative is said to have
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: had contacts, if that's what you want to call it
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: with Oswald Number four. I've assumed that for since the
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 6: time I was transferred from Miami and its scheduled for
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 6: my next assignment as COOB Zagreb Officer Chief Base.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 6: Again, this is formally redacted, so officers better and more
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 6: recently informed than myself have probably examined in detail all
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 6: aspects of the DRA involvement with Oswald in order to
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 6: rule out any slight possibility that compromises the CIA sponsorship
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 6: of this organization might in any way embarrass the agency.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: Recent news reports of investigations centering in New Orleans on
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 6: the assassination have once again brought to mind the concern
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 6: and I felt in November sixty three, by which time, however,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 6: I was far removed from current knowledge of the operation.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: I do retain a distinct recollection the DRE leader, specifically
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 6: Louis Fernandez Rocca, whom I met several times, did hold
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 6: sentiments of chagrin and embitterment that President Kennedy had not
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 6: been more forcefully pursued, that Kennedy had not more forcefully
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: pursued a liberation of Cuba. Whether or not this animus,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 6: which could be discerned as occasional signs of anger or
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 6: contempt or discouragement, might have been translated into a wish
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 6: for revenge.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: Joe maybe better known to.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 6: Other officers who dealt with this group after the summer
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 6: of sixty three. Sincerely, Calvin Thomas, SBOPT.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're definitely distancing themselves there.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 6: Huh, Well, they're not distant in themselves. This is from
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: a former Well he's a CIA officer, but what he's
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: saying is that when he knew Roca, they were pissed
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: at Kennedy and he felt when the assassination happened that
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 6: they were behind it and that this could be possibly
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: translated into a wish for revenge. Okay, And then he's saying,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 6: but maybe other officers who dealt with this group after
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 6: the summer of sixty three might know better than me.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: You know, what the hell do I know?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: Basically right right right, they're kind of I'm not saying
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: this guy knew anything. I'm just saying like he's obviously
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: covering his ass in a.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 6: Sense, and asked Joe, he's letting other people in CIA
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 6: know what he felt about the dre.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: Okay, are we watching the same show here?
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: We are, Okay, just making sure.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: M I was just trying to discern, like what h Krozer,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: what he was trying to say about Krozer and kind
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: of giving him some distance from the matter, being like,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: Krozer has not been involved with this VERTI a long time,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: and maybe that's true.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: Frozier was after him.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it just seems like a little bit of
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: a deflection, is the vibe I got from it?
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 7: If that makes sense.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 6: I think Calvin Thomas is the guy who dealt with
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 6: the at the DRE before Crozier, and when the assassination
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 6: went down, he felt that the DRE could have been
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: behind it as a motive of revenge because personally they
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 6: didn't like the motherfucker Kennedy.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: So you're saying it went from Thomas to Krozier to
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Joe and Edie's.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and there might have been some others in there
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 6: in between. But yeah, that's what I'm saying. As we'll
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 6: see allegedly, Okay, I need to share my screen. Come, come, come, come,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 6: here we go. All right, this is in sixty eight,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 6: all right, subject to Garrison investigation Kennedy assassination. So now
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 6: they're talking about the memorandum that we just saw from
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 6: Calvin Thomas, all right.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Which is just why I was a little bit confused,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: because Garrison investigation would be after those two Thomas in
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: a sense. So that's what I'm just trying to get
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: nailed down.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's because of the Garrison investigation is digging shit.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: Up, all right.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 6: So Calvin Thomas just letting the CIA know that because
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 6: of the Garrison investigation.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: Here's something you might want to.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: Know, right, so he's writing a memo right years later,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: years later, Okay, okay, thank.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: You, all right now, now this is sixty eight.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 6: They're talking about the memorandum the Calvin Thomas wrote. And
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 6: they say, while while there he had read about the
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 6: Warrant Commission's investigation, ann had noted the pre assassination encounter
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans between Brignier and Lee Harvey Oswal. He
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 6: recalled his own dealings with my with in Miami with
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 6: the DRE, a CIA subsidized group. He considered the DRA members,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 6: whom he knew to be unpredictable and untrustworthy.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: All right, we know that to be true.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 6: He speculated as to whether DRI elements could have been
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 6: involved in the Kennedy assassination.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 6: He recommended that the CI investigate this possibility, if it had
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: not already done so. Thomas was assigned to Miami jam
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 6: Way from July sixty two to August sixty three. Neither CI,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 6: RNA nor SB has retention copy of the memoranda, but
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 6: mister Thomas is still at headquarters, all right, Miss Margaret Forsyth.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: She stated the cis interested in the DRA had been
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 6: made known to the Office of the Attorney General by
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: letters of nine January and April eighteen sixty three, addressed
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: to Walter Yeagley. The earlier letter said, in part, the
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: DRI is of interest to this agency, which sponsors and
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: supports its propaganda and intelligence collection activity in the Western Hemisphere.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 6: As the DRI is not a group under complete agency control,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: the above does not ensure that they will not undertake
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 6: isolated paramilitary operations without prior notification.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Again, like I said before, I pointed out the wording,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: and it's not under complete agency.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 6: Control, correct, because the DRA was doing shit off off script,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 6: if you will, when it came to operations.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Right, But they're still paying them.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 6: They're still paying them, they're still funding them. But again,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 6: you remember in late sixty two they were called to
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 6: the carpet by Richard Hilms. They were brought to Langley
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 6: Headquarters and be rated Yes, trust down, I mean, they were,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 6: they were, they were.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: This is like, uh, what do you call it?
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 6: Basically saying that you know, hey, yeah, we fund them
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 6: and their propaganda, but not their operations. They kind of
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 6: do things on their own here and we don't. We don't,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 6: we don't direct any of that.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: And It's kind of ironic, right, because it's kind of
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: the similar situation with Sturgis.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And again here mess years Howard Hi Howard Bruce
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 6: Baker then recently returned from a tour of the Miami
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 6: station and Carl Trenton, DC of the CI branch who
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 6: knew Brignier. Carl Trenton knew Brignier, Yeah, and was stationed
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans at the time of the Oswald Brignier
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 6: confrontations in August of sixty three.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: What so Carl Trenton was in New.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 6: Orleans at the time of the Oswald Brignier confrontations. It
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 6: was concluded that Oswald was never a member of the
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 6: DRA no shit, which in fact rejected him, and the
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 6: DRA was not involved in the assassination allegedly. On sixty seven,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 6: the undersigned showed a copy of the Thomas memo to
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 6: Tom Flores again that name was formally redacted, who considered
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 6: that it reflected inadequate information and bias.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: It's horse shit Joe.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: A group where funding would never assassinate the president, no way,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 6: no how and the charges with DA Jim Garrison was
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 6: the beginning level was beginning to level against anti castric Cubans,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 6: and this agency necessitated careful checking.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: God damn it. The first report in the CIA RNA
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: series on Garrison listed seven Cuban refugees, then link to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: the case Arcotias Smith, Bregner, Bresnado, Manuel Garcia, Gonzalez ascau Conora,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Miguelvatoris and Carlos Keroga. If you will, he requested.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 6: Any additional information about the Cuban Domestic Democratic Revolutionary Front.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 6: That's a CEA RC, the DRE, the inca Information Council
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 6: of the Americas, and any other anti Castro groups active
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: All right, they mentioned.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: Ed Butler here, Alberto Fowler, Emilio Santana. Like pontr Trained
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 6: training site, They're very interested in what's going on down there.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 6: They're keeping an eyeball on Jim Garrison, is what they're
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 6: doing hereried. They are a little worried about what could
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 6: possibly uncovered and be coming out here. For the problem
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 6: arising from Garrison, charges of agency involvement in the assassinations
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 6: is compounded by the nature of some of our former
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: Cuban operations. This is where they spell it out for you, Joe,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 6: in case you missed it. Okay, for example, Garrison has
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 6: sought without success, to extradite Surgery or Kasha Smith from Dallas.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 6: The FBI reporting as of March sixty seven that, according
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: to Layton Patrick Martin's, Garrison will try to prove that
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 6: Arkasha was the second trigger man the assassination. The checks
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 6: run by White House have not shown any link between
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 6: ur Kasha and the CIA.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: Bullshit.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 6: However, White House has reported that are not white House
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 6: Western Hemisphere Sorry yeah. Co Reparations Group has reported that
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 6: Arcascia was a delegate of the Front Ay Revolutionary or
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 6: Democratic over the FRD in New Orleans blah blah blah
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 6: CRC blah blah blah, supported by the CIA aha blah
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: blah blah, and that funds were supplied by the heads
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 6: of these groups, the doctor jose Miro Cardona. Consequently, Arkasha
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 6: may have believed that his activities in New Orleans were
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 6: CIA supported, which they were kind of. This phenomenon of
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 6: indirect association appears in other cases as well, and may
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 6: well underlie some of Garrison's accusations. So now the CIA
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 6: is worried that these fundings of these anti Castro Cuban
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 6: exile groups is going to be unmasked by Garrison and
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 6: there work it's going to.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Come back and kick them in the ass.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 6: I believe it suggested that U. C. Wh or his
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 6: representative might profitably query. That means you might want to
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 6: talk to mister Thomas about the allegation summarized in paragraph
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 6: one above. Although the date for the trial of clay
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 6: Shaw has not been set yet, it is plainly drawing closer.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 6: Once it starts, the newspapers will carry a flood of accusations,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 6: old and new, and it would be judicious to be
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 6: prepared in advance.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: So mm hmm, yeah, you think.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 6: So that's the CIA really worried about what Garrison was
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 6: about ready to do down there.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: Uh m hmm. Yeah.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, as we have kind of I'm to weave
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: it back here, as we've kind of been focusing on
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: the Cuban exile element in the past few weeks. It
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: makes me think that either Cuban exiles that were assets,
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: maybe agents, probably not, but groups that were funded by
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: the CIA were responsible for framing Oswalt and killing JFK.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: And this created a huge issue in terms of covering
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: your ass in terms of the CIA as far as
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: they're concerned.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because you were having a problem with all of
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 6: these Cuban exiles running their mouths a.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: Lot mm hmm, a lot, a lot, And there's all
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: these different groups. They all have different goals and levels
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: of commitment and different connections with this person and that person,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: and it's you know, and like we talked about on
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: Wednesday with the Cuban exiles in the Congo and the
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: new book that came out, this Angel Benitez in how
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: you know Member of the dri came to Miami, was
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: in the Congo with Frank Bartz and Rip Robertson and
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: Rene Garcia and you know, you can go on. All
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: these things are connected and they're intertwined, and they have
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: to be scared that these connections, however direct or indirect,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: was going to come back to bite them.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: In the book.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think they were comfortably okay with
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 6: how cut out everything was. But again, if one of
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 6: the groups that they're funding was actually behind the assassination,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 6: that's a problem.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're still through your due diligence if you're the CIA, right.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 6: Just to make sure, I want to I think that
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: Briga would have gotten a little visit from somebody back
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 6: then just saying.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. I'm sure he.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: Did, if you know what I'm saying, yes, and told
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: him to shut the back up. Make it look like
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: Castro did this.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, we'll right, we'll write to a book publishing
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: contract later, you'll cut a nice advance.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 6: The CIA response to this, these internal memorandums and recommendations
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 6: during the Garrison investigation, Let's see what they turned up, Joe. Okay,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 6: let's see what they turned up here internally when looking
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 6: at what could possibly be coming down the pike for
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 6: them in light of the play Shaw trial and the
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 6: Garrison investigation.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: So mm hmm, here we go.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 6: FBI confidential blah blah blah. This goes back to fifty one.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 6: An FBI document indicates a Shaw manager of the International
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 6: Trademark New Orleans Advisor during forty nine and fifty Harry
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 6: Kahan employed as manager of Czechoslovakian Industrial Exhibit at International
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 6: Trademark in New Orleans, resided at blah blah blah, Bourbon Street,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 6: blah blah blah.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: Contestify Ri E. Khn's interest in The Daily Worker.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: What what country? Rob what what country?
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 7: Starting with a C Technicolovakian.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, I thought he knew of a prefix that
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: came from there.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: Sorry, all easy easy bills.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: Country designation is a little different than project designation. But yeah,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: the hello, I know.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 6: Review of the two of the two of one file
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 6: indicates Shawl categorized as all others member. For the records
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 6: of this date, all press and other media coverage of
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 6: events concerning the arrest and trial, all of the subjects
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 6: have been removed from this twoh.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: One wile.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 6: And actually this document we're looking at here was prepared
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 6: for the HSCA looking back into the CIA internal files.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: I mean, this wasn't produced for the HSCA. It was
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 6: produced at the time of the HSCA for internal use
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 6: by the CIA. Not that the HCA ever saw any
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 6: of this at all. Okay, that's not what I'm saying.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 6: This is a kind of look back, if you will,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 6: an internal look back at the allegations during the HSCA
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 6: implication in Kennedy assassination.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm sorry, let me back up a little bit more. Memo.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 6: For the record is of this date, all press and
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 6: other media coverage of events concerning the arrest and trial
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 6: of clay Shaw have been removed from the two oh
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 6: one and files three through sixteen retired to Record Center
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 6: in CIICG vault her story. So apparently the CIA has
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 6: their own vault. Did you know that for file storage?
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I mean I didn't specifically know what, but I mean
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: I could have guessed that at a million, sure, a million,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: an FA million guesses.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 6: And then they talk about Leslie Norman Bradley here, a
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 6: license commercial pri pilot who flew from Wichita, Kansas to
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 6: New Orleans on November twenty third, nineteen sixty three for
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 6: some reason. Former prisoner at the Isle of Pines Joe
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 6: until nineteen sixty two, possibly a Castro sympathizer, Bradley worked
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans Lakefront Airport for several years in the fifties,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 6: i e.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: Probably New Ferry.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 6: At the time of the Bradley worked at the Flora
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 6: Noy Flying School. Believe the assassination done by the Cubans,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: so decided to go to Miami to confirm his convictions.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: Went to New Orleans.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 6: First been alleged that Bradley told the airport personnel that
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 6: clay Shaw had been helping him through donations. Bradley denied this,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 6: and he was questioned by the Garrison investigators. Now there're
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 6: some interesting little fact toys in that little paragraph.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: There, Joe, there are uh.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 6: He again, he believed that the assassination had been done
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 6: by Cubans, so he decided to go to Miami to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 6: confirm confirm his convictions. I would love to know more
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 6: about that trip.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: But I'm going to go to New Orleans first.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 6: And it's been alleged that Shaw had been funneling funds
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: to him.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: Uh, but he denied it, right, And I'm sure they
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: had a bunch of shell companies and nonprofits and other
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: shit like that that could funnel money. I mean, Clay
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: Shaw was the BSD in that area. I mean I
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: think he could have easily done that.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we have never paid him. We have never remunerated him.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 6: Talking about Clay All contacts with Shaw resulted in eight reports.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 6: Contact was Hunter Leak in New Orleans, CIA. That's who
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 6: debrief shaw relationship has discontinued as shotgun approach to collection
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 6: effort waived, and it became obvious that shawl was becoming
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: more and more interested in his private ventures otherwise known
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 6: as I can't and less and less in the activities
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 6: of the international trademark. He resigned his manager in October
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 6: first sixty five. Internal memo indicates considered contacting Shaw's lawyers,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 6: who were interested in talking with agency personnel who might
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 6: be able to clear the quote smokescreen Garrison was raising end.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: Quote Yeah, I'm sure.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 6: So Again, they were worried that they were going to
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 6: uncover the connections between the CIA and Shaw, as there
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 6: was some, as Garrison was alleging, just not the kind
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 6: that he thought it was, right, perrect Shaw was a
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 6: contact agent or asset who was paid for information when
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 6: he came back from his international trips, where he would
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 6: debrief him and he would talk about things that he
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 6: saw in different countries, how how their systems worked over there,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 6: and all that jazz, anything about Elsie might have heard whatever. Yeah,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 6: he did, They did it eight times.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: There was eight reports written about.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: It about Shaw.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah from Shaw.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so not his first rodeo, not a one off.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 6: Right, they're going talking about Martin's again, Martin's lighton. Martin's
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 6: was vice president of the c r C. Okay, but uh,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 6: he's a white boy.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 6: Martin's believed to have lived with Faery and Shaw, shown
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 6: shaw address as his own while attending the University of
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 6: Southwestern Louisiana and Lafayette. See that's interesting, Okay, because we
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: know Lighton Martin's was. But Buddies with David Ferry correct,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: and he puts Shaw's addressed down as his own while
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 6: attending the University of Southwestern Louisiana and Lafayette.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: Which is odd.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: You put Shaw's addressed down, not fairies dress.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: That's odd. That's a problem.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 6: That's weird. Now he might have been, you know, a
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 6: twink for both of them. I mean, I don't know.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: That's my guess.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's odd.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 6: Hey, daddy, can I use your address while I'm going
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 6: to college?
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: Okay? Thank you, thank you? Thank you.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: Can you get me a scholarship through your organizations?
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: Thank you, daddy. The visit of General Cabal.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 6: Cabelle, yes capital, not the mayor of Dallas, but his
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 6: brother of the okay, where he visited New Orleans to
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 6: the Foreign Policy Association meeting in New Orleans at which
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 6: Shaw Clay Shaw introduced to General in nineteen sixty one.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: Casual contact with Shaw.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: We're not going to that one.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 6: Did see Shaw socially on chance occasions in downtown New Orleans,
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 6: during which time there was little conversation other than how
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 6: are you mind if I I'm sorry? Did not see
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 6: Shaw at all after sixty five.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: Presumably.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 6: Well this is under leak from the CIA who was
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans, right, Uh, this is the guy that
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 6: debriefed him all the time, but he would rarely see
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 6: him out, hey, how are you?
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: How you doing?
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 6: And allegedly didn't see him at all after sixty five
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 6: because Shaw had retired from the trademark and they didn't
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: see each other down in the French quarter there Joe
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 6: so very often, and any flamboyant that part is, if
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 6: you know what I'm saying. They didn't call him hunt
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 6: a leak for nothing. He could hunt a leak out
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 6: and plug it.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, Hey, now.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: We're supposed to be in our best.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: Behavior again, they're not watching this far into the show. Joe,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: calm down.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: I don't I know. I'm joking.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 6: Oswald involvement with the Dr CIA personnel who may have
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 6: some knowledge of the Dr. Paul Oburst of the Cuban
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: Operations Group or COG, if you will, Howard High Howard
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 6: brew Baker of the Cuban Operations Group called Trenton.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: Deputy Trenton again coming up.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 6: Deputy Chief of Cuban Operations Group who knew Brigner and
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 6: was stationed in New Orleans at the time of the
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: above incidents. Margaret Forsyth, who we read from that little
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 6: piece before of the Keeping Dusk, thoroughly familiar with Dre's operation.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 6: DRI was not funded by the CIA, but did have
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 6: contact with some of its members. Now that's a lie.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 6: That is a direct denial of involvement and a lie
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 6: by the CIA. Right, read that sense again, DRI was
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 6: not funded by the CIA, bullshit, but did have contact
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 6: with some of its members.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: Bullshit. Yep, that's bullshit. That is.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: A blatant lie.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 6: That is pure deniability denial. And again this is in
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 6: sixty seven a memo for the record, right, this is
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 6: the CIA looking back on their own shit.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: Now, granted they might not have known what would come
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: out later.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: They didn't.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 6: They had no clue what would come out, dude, right,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 6: but this is what they're.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: Gonna put out.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: DRI was not funded by the CIA, but did have
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 6: contact with some of its members.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: A legend. Uh, I know what all this is?
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about Werner von Braun? Josh I think
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: Shaw was involved in the surrender of the rocket guy
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: that came to NASA rocketman. Good song. You have to
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: be talking about Warner von Braun, but I'm not sure.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: I just random.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 6: Sorry, All good, All right, they're talking about more about
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 6: the member for the record from Calvin Thomas Ross Grozer.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: Took off his case.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 6: Officer believed dr could have animus towards Kennedy. Rocus spoke
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 6: bitterly of Kennedy in sixty one. Again no love lost there.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 6: And of course the last thing in this document is
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 6: a Martin.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: John H.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 6: No interview with Carl John Stanley of Louisville, Kentucky. Stanley
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 6: familiar with John Martin aka Jack Martin and David Ferry
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 6: through the church. On recommendation of John Martin, Stanley consecrated
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 6: David Ferry as a bishop.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: In nineteen sixty six.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: Martin told Stanley that he and Ferry, new Oswald and
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 6: Ferry involved in the assassination claimed Ferry, Jerry Depew, and
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 6: George Augustine Hyde all associates of Martin connected with Cuban organizations.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 6: Martin claims past association with the CIA and any loose documents.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 6: Joe that we got laying around here. Don't pay no
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 6: attention to none of that. There is nothing of interest
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 6: there allegedly, yeah, uh indicates concern for response are regarding
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 6: Shaw's connection with the CIA. We can reconstruct contact by Leeke,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 6: but quote, since we cannot determine the nature of dcd's
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 6: relationship with shawl from our files, now, you would appreciate
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 6: your summarizing it for us. So file contains reports made
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 6: by Clay Shaw pursuance of contacts by the CIA between
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 6: forty nine and fifty six memoranda which followed the course
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 6: of the Shaw trial and investigation. Because of alleged CIA involvement,
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 6: CIA tried to determine relationship between Shaw and perm Index
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 6: or World Trade Center. There appears to be none. Foyer
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 6: request of Thornley. Response indicates CIA had only one document
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 6: with reference to Thornley. However, this document has not been
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 6: included with a file because you don't need to see it,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 6: and it's only one so.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: Allegedly allegedly and that is that one.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 6: Now, yeah, I mean there's some there's some there's some
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 6: things here. There's some things going on here. I just
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 6: don't care about it.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: There definitely is, sir there.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 6: Definitely is srill down into Ross Crozier a little bit here. Yeah,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 6: I have here Joe in my hot little hand. Maybe
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 6: a subject of a future book review. It's called Lived
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 6: by the Sword, The Secret War against Castro and the
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 6: Death of JFK by Gus Russo. And I'd like to
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 6: read you a small excerpt if you will indulge me.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: I will, okay, indulge a way.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 7: Okay, Now they're talking about.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: Huh, let me clear my throat.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 6: Here he's talking about Layton Martin's and Narconscious Smith.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay. And apparently.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 6: Layton Martin's was interviewed by Gus Russo for this book,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 6: and it says in a conver station with the author,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 6: recently admitted to being aware of the I'm sorry, Akasha
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 6: was interviewed.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: Okay, recently admitted to being aware of the Robert Kennedy letter,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: although typically for Akasha declined to discuss it any further.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 6: After using the letter throughout the summer to solicit contributions,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 6: Martin says that my copy of the Robert F.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: Kennedy. Yeah, that Robert F.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 6: Kennedy letter was stolen from my briefcase when I left
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 6: it at David Ferry's apartment. Remember when I told y'all
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 6: last episode that the CRC had a direct line to
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 6: the Kennedys, that would be the White House and Robert F.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: Kennedy. Well, apparently they had a letter from Robert F.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 6: Kennedy that they would show people when they were soliciting funds. Right,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 6: and this letter, at least Martin's copy of the letter
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 6: was stolen from his briefcase at David Ferry's apartment.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: Insert joke here.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 6: Martin believes that in fact, Ferry took the letter and
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 6: his virginity feeling Martin's should not have any reason to
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 6: keep this kind of material because at the time he
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 6: was leaving the CRC and returning to school, where he
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: would go on to use Shaw's address as his home. Addrest,
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 6: collecting donations was only a small part of the CRC's
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 6: row in New Orleans, the opposite of five point forty
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 6: four Camp Street became a center not only for arms
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 6: procurement for Bobby Kennedy's sabotage program aka Mongoose, but for
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 6: intelligence gathering from what remained of the Cuban underground back
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 6: on the island. As one of the Camp Street volunteers
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 6: told Gus Russo, quote, this all became a White House
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 6: priority because of the information that we were getting. We
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 6: had the FBI at our disposal. Hence the reason you
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 6: have all these CRC members snitching to the FBI about
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 6: everything that's going on. Right, So that's their line, their
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 6: lifeline back to the Kennedys, through.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 3: The FBI and back to money yep, back and forth,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: back and forth.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 6: This intelligence included information so sensitive that our Kasha and
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 6: his associates were allowed to continue their pre bay of
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 6: pigs direct line to both the White House and Robert Kennedy.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 6: The White House wanted to know about missiles and apparently
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 6: they had intel.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean we've talked about the DRE and
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: their information on missiles still in Cuba, right, and how
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: that put up the big bunch of drama too, right.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Now more about the missiles here. At the time,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 6: Miami based CIA agent Ross Krozer was the liaison with
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 6: the Miami headquarters of the DRE and the CIA.
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: Krazer says, the DRE was the first.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 6: To report the missiles in Cuba and have that information ignored.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 6: So again, if you're part of the DRA and You're
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 6: giving them good information about missiles, and you know they're like.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: Damn whatever.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how are you gonna.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: Feel it's gonna piss them off?
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 6: Uh and Ross Krozer was interviewed by Gus Russo in
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 6: the nineties. Krozer says the dre was quote, I'm sorry,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 6: I already read that part. I was passing that information along,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 6: but it was like pouring water down a rat hole.
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 7: I never got anywhere.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: I don't exact analogy, but yeah, it wouldn't be efficient.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: The CIA's chief of Miami, jam Wave Ted Shackley, had
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 3: also been told of the missiles by his Cuban sources.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 3: Shackley acknowledged as much when he later testified before Congress.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 3: Gayton Phonsie writes Nation Knew Shackley said that there were
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: missiles in Cuba long before the policy makers would accept
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: that reality. He said, Kennedy announced that fact only after
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: receiving a U two aerial photograph of the missiles. An
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: Edge of.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 6: Sentencesm in his tone, Shackley said, if he had known
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 6: what Kennedy meant by hard intelligence, he would have gotten
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 6: him to goddamn you tube photographs himself much earlier. So
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 6: again they were they were relaying stuff, but nothing was
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 6: done until Kennedy had hard evidence, if you know what
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: I'm saying, Joe, Yes, hard evidence. But this is a
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 6: fascinating freak book and if you haven't read it yet,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 6: you are missing out.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: But this is not a book review.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 7: But god damn it, it's good.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 3: Uh that might be the next one, Joe.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 3: All right, pray continue, rob Okay, here we go.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 6: Now, let's drive down a little bit on mister kroz
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 6: Yell Crozier. All right, this is his wife, actually, missus
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 6: Argentina Crozier. Ah, a little background information there, Argentia.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 3: Argentina. Oh yeah, mhm h m hmm abailable.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 6: Well and by the way, this is how you got
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 6: paid by the CIA.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: Well, at least there were sipts of it anyway.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 6: Ah, they paid Ross Krozer in cash okay, where services
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 6: rendered for the month of January incertain date here, this
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 6: is actually from January fifty one.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: So let me let me lay this out for you, Joe. So,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 3: Ross Krozer was never.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 6: An official employee. He was a contract agent.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, contract agent.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 6: Yes, he was never an official employee of the CIA,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 6: but he was a contract agent who had to have
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 6: his contract renewed on either a semi monthly or yearly basis.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: Right, hence the cash payments.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 3: Correct, Hence he didn't have to pay taxes on this shit.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 3: You see what I'm saying. Yeah, now, he was paid cash.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 6: And I'm sure this was never you know, this is
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 6: all for internal stuff for the CIA, but this is
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 6: how they did it, and and Krozer would have to
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 6: sign for his cash and then they turned him in.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 6: You can see on the left side that the perforations
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 6: again they were probably inserted into some kind of little booklet, right,
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 6: and noticed that the sum is redacted here.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 7: This is interesting.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of them.
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 6: So many months of receipts, many months.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: Of receipts for fifty three. I don't know what the
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 3: hell that is. There's more receipts Coroacher being paid back
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 3: as far back as forty nine.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 6: I mean, so he was with the agency back in
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 6: the late forties. He's an old school man. He's been
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 6: around almost the inception of the CIA in nineteen forty seven,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 6: very shortly after. All. Right, this is cool, man, So
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 6: this is this is his cover, his cover identity. I
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 6: don't know if I can blow this up anymore, I can't.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 3: But it says Ross L.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 6: Krozer, representative of the Public Surveys Institute, a General Polling
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 6: Service of fifteen or fifteen eleven back Bayanne Street, Dallas, Texas,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 6: of all the fucking places.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: Oof, yeah, it's a problem.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 3: This is subjects cover file in operations folder. So this
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: was his cover.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 6: This is where he would say he worked, right, and
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 6: then his entire uh it was backstop. So you know,
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 6: maybe if if you showed up to this place, there'd
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 6: be a secretary at the front desk. There's somebody there
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 6: to answer a phone, right.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: At least somebody there to answer a phone.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there'd be multiple people using this same place
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 6: as a backstop cover for their employment.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: But that was hella interesting, fucking crazy interesting. I think
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: I have another interesting document on his post uh employment
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: of the post Office of all places.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we'll get there. Look at all these reacted
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 6: pages in this file. I mean I have three full
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 6: redacted pages in this mother ever.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: Look at this, I mean, nothing is on.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: There, nothing completely blank though, no.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 6: So just a window into how the CIA would do things. Okay,
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 6: A lot of this.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 3: Stuff people never seen before.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 6: So Ross Krazer had several aliases or kryptonyms or whatever
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 6: you want to call them aka and yes, Wow, what
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 6: are you saying, Joe.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: I said, several yes, pseudonyms and aliases.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, one of them being Arthur like Auta. Yes, that
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 6: is one that was his cover when he was in
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 6: Cuba in the fifties during Project Afo Dark, when he
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 6: actually met with Castro and brokeered a deal in the
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 6: jungle in a fucking hut with Castro and Shae Grivara
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 6: and to sell him a helicopter for twenty five thousand
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 6: dollars in supply an American pilot.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 6: And the deal was gonna go down and the CIA
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 6: backed out on at the last minute. So Ross Krozer
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 6: was not just some dork sitting behind a desk somewhere. Okay,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 6: this guy was thoroughly fluent in Spanish and could have
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 6: easily passed for a Latino national, despite the.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 3: Fact that he looked like your average white guy college jock.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 6: Okay, obviously a whiteye, I mean he was born in
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 6: like the Calvio, Illinois, but he if he wasn't white,
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 6: he could have passed easily for a Latina.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: He was a coming.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 6: Gringo yeah with a good ten yeah and a broken
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 6: nose off to the left. Uh So, I don't know
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 6: where these questions are being asked. I mean, she seems
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 6: like they're asking to themselves for some reasons. But it's
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 6: it's just weird. I guess, I guess their internal evaluations.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 6: Like forty one here, what control exists over the subject
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 6: at present? How can it be increased? Subjective is controlled
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 6: through dependence on salary as well as most of us
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 6: are loyalty because of his American heritage, past army and
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 6: agency service, and a desire for a career and intelligence work.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 6: Number forty two for what service does he think that
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 6: he's working? What does he think becomes of his information?
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 6: Subject is cognizant of the identity of this organization.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 3: That means he knows.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: Who he's working correct? Correct?
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 6: Explain fully subject's past or present connection with any intelligence
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 6: service previously US Army and Air Force intelligence, probably.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: World War Two, if he started working there in forty
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: eight or whatever.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: If subjects duties are to be other than intelligence gathering,
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 3: explain only those functions administrative, operational normally exercised by PA.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: Has he been given special training as an agent explained
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: US Army Intelligence training and agency covert training from five
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: October through twenty five November fifty three. Additional covert training
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: and headquarters planned for able to May fifty seven.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 6: So as you can see, you know, they go through
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 6: very extensive background information and internal investigations while they're employed there, right,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 6: And I.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: Think it's because it's so compartmentalized that even the powers
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: that be, the BSDs, the big guys at the CIA,
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: aren't exactly sure either.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and to what I just said earlier, are subjects
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 6: language abilities such that he could pass as a native
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 6: of a country other than his own? And the answer is,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 6: he has native fluency in language and would at least
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 6: pass as longtime resident and possibly even a national of certain.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 3: Countries.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 6: But yeah, Latin countries, although it has obviously foreign physical
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 6: characteristics like.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: He's tragically white.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 6: Okay, Unfortunately he cannot pass as a Latino, but didn't
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 6: stop him from meeting with Castro and the Grovar in
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 6: the jungle hut.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 3: And tell I'm a helicopter. Social standing? Is he aristrat?
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 6: Aristocracy? Upper middle class, lower middle class? Is he of
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 6: the peasantry like Joe? No, he is upper middle class.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 6: What are his personal habits, Joe, liquor, drugs, gambling, bitches.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: Believed to be normal in all respects, all right, not like.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: Me who has been gambling on soccer way too much.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: Degenerate Joe.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 6: Evaluation of subject's character, reliability, security all noted excellent. Now
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 6: subject can send and receive Morse code Joe, he knows that.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 6: So again, this is a seventy nine page file of
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 6: which we are not going to go through all of it.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 6: I just wanted to illuminate some things from this.
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, this is the as it's past.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 6: Born in twenty two into Calbo, Illinois, oldest of five children,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 6: blah blah blah, and it kind of gives his background
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 6: and what He was assigned to the Humanoid Project in
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 6: somewhere in South America, handled high level penetration of the redacted.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 6: In fifty three, he was sent to headquarters for training.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 6: He was assigned to PBS Success for a brief period.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 6: I believe that's Cuba in July fifty.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: Four, Guatema.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, you're right, Guatemala. Sorry, yeah, okay, okay,
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: you're right. I don't know.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: I was fifty fifty on it, blucky.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: Guys, got it, You got it.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 6: Krozer has a healthy appearance and appears to be about
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 6: twenty five instead of thirty two, so young looking for
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 6: his age.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 6: He is athletically inclined and has been and is at
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 6: present interested in organized that organizing and participating in intramural athletics.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 6: He is happily married and the father of two children.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 6: He possesses a great deal of integrity, honesty, intelligence, and resourcefulness.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 6: His chief hobby, aside from sports, is photography. He has
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 6: made quite a study of picture taking and has developed
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 6: a portrait photo technique which he has found useful in
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 6: his work and as an aide to obtaining extra spending
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 6: money while going to school. The chief of a bann
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 6: A mission and WHD you have a strong feeling that
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 6: this man will perform his duties in a superior manner
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 6: and will take and will make AMFO Dark a valuable
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 6: and worthwhile project.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: Right Western Hemisphere Division, Yes, Yes, WHD.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 3: BSD Yes. And again this is a very long file.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 6: It's it's crazy how much shit is in here about
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 6: Ross Krozer.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: Well, except for these entire.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: And that's crazy. What's not in there?
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, allegedly allegedly.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: That that would be an interesting name if I would
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: to the archives to request some boxes on huh.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And there's stuff in here that goes back to
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 6: fifty one for this humanoid project.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 3: Whatever this was, I don't know. Doesn't sound good.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound good. I was about to say, like,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what's going on there.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it talks about photography and safe meeting places between
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 6: humanoid and humanists. And I don't know if this is
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 6: alien related.
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 10: I don't know what.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: It sounds like it is, but we're not going to
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: go out there.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: It could be, it could it very well could be. Uh,
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 3: there was.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 6: I guess it was a newspaper article in the USA
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 6: today a couple of years ago with Ross Krozer's daughter
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 6: and you know, her looking back kind of on things
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 6: as they were back in the day with her father,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 6: who's you know. Of course, she didn't know that he
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 6: was working for the CIA, or that he was a
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 6: spy or anything like that.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 3: There's an interesting article here. Yeah, here it is.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 6: Before it hits the landfill paper says Krozer died in obscurity.
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 6: Ross Krozer died in obscurity in the year two thousand,
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 6: but details of his work in Cuba began to emerge
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 6: nearly twenty decades after later, in unsealed documents compiled in
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 6: the USA Today investigation published on Saturday. He was stationed
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 6: in Cuba at a time when the nation was racked
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 6: with civil unrest aimed at brutal dictator in US ally Batista.
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 3: Check this out.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 6: So if it weren't for Krozer, there probably would have
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 6: never been to Dri. He embedded himself in the University
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 6: of Havana, cultivating students's informants while radical student movements against
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 6: Batista ramped up, right, And you're.
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: Talking early mid fifties here, Yeah, and we're talking Casher
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: taking over in fifty nine, right, So he's getting his
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: sources down even before he really even knows about Castro.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he's embedding himself as a student at the University
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 6: of Havana under cover because Castro was a was a
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 6: University of Havana law graduate. Okay, in case you didn't
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 6: know that Fidel Castro.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: Was a lawyer, I did not know that. Yeah, a
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: university trained lawyer.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: Uh learned something new every day.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 7: And Castro, especially a long government podcast.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 6: Castro became one of Batista's most effective adversaries through the
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 6: July twenty sixth Movement, which he created.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: With his brother Raoul and Shay Garvar.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 6: Now the University of Havana got shuddered in nineteen fifty
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 6: six amid mounting violence in the Cuban capitol following the
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 6: attempted assassination of Castro by Batista, who was notorious for
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 6: putting hits out on his rivals. So you can see
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 6: why Castro got pissed at Batista. Does he tried to
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 6: kill him again? The teflon Don Fidel Castro himself was
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 6: uh tried, tried to be killed by Batista put a
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 6: hit out on him. The CIA then gave Ross Krozer
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 6: a new cover as representative for a fictional economic research firm,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 6: the Public Surveys Institute, which we saw the card for right.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: Is that Harold no Mayor? Or is that Arthur via
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: val Vada.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 3: Well was under Ross Krozer. We saw that, we saw
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 3: the card Joe.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, there's also Ron Cross as related pseudonyms for him.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 6: Well, that was given to him by Gayton Ponzi, So
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 6: that's not a real one, but.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 3: I digress.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm that's who Gayton Fanzi called. He called Ross
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 6: Krozer ron Cross in his.
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: In his book, would okay, I have a document that
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know if we'll got to tonight or part
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: two of no mayor n O E M A y R.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 3: Get there.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: That was another we'll get there, We'll get there.
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 3: That's another one of his A.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 7: Ka not gonna step in your toes pseudonyms.
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 6: Krozer gained unprecedented access to Castro in March of fifty eight.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 6: That's when we said he met with he was meeting
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 6: with Gravara and Castro in the jungle.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 6: He was invited to Castro jungle hide out in eastern Cuba,
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 6: where he spent two weeks with him, building a rapport
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 6: with Castro and Gravara and photographing them in the process.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 3: Hm wow, swinging dicks.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 6: During his stay, he offered your pride Castro with a
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 6: twenty five thousand dollars helicopter from the US along with
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 6: an American pilot. Despite his strong distrust of the US,
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 6: Castro entertained the idea of accepting the helicopter Crozer was
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 6: claiming to have access to, and when Krozer relayed the
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 6: discussions of the CIA, the agency said, yeah, we're not
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 6: going to do that.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: Dude, wait along with an American pilot, as in, we're
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: giving you this guy to fly the helicopter.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, we're gonna sell you a helicopter and give
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 6: you a guy to fly it.
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe denied it.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 6: If they don't have anybody to fly a helicopter, then
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 6: won't fly. But this would have given the CIA penetration
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 6: into Castro's inner circle, and it's unclear why the CIA
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 6: never followed through with this plan. As he was on
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 6: his way back to Havana from Castro's camp, Krozer came
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 6: under threat from Batista patrols, who were targeting anyone suspecting
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 6: of helping the Cuban leader. Krozer was promptly exfiltrated from
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 6: Cuba and flown back to Washington at the CIA's request.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 6: The agency's second in command wrote Krozer a commendation for
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 6: his mission and nominated the spy for an Intelligent Star
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 6: for courage. Two years later, in nineteen sixty, Krozer was
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 6: assigned to mentor a group of student protesters who had
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 6: fled Cuba for Florida, called the Dre Krozer settled in
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 6: Miami under the alias Roger Fox and set out training
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 6: the dere agents to prepare them to help carry out
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 6: Eisenhower's covert plan to aust Castro.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 3: Some fourteen hundred.
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 6: CIA trained dre agents were dispatched to Cuba and Fifthbruary
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 6: of sixty one, where they awaited news about the US
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 6: invasions scheduled for September. So again, you have fourteen hundred
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 6: undercover dre agents infiltrating Cuba before the Bay of Pigs invasion,
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 6: to be already in the country by the time the
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 6: shit went down to attack from within, Right, But that
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 6: didn't quite go as planned either.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: No, Right, that would be the of course, the rising
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: up of the population. But that amount of assets really
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: puts into a perspective of why they were being paid
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: so much, subsidized so much.
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you got to pay these guys. You
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 6: ain't got to pay bring a Chris cafuz And in
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 6: New Orleans. But you got to pay these guys and
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 6: put their life on the line.
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, if they even got paid, I mean.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 6: Well, they say, because they received no advance. When the
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 6: invasion of the Beya Pigs was executed, months earlier than
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 6: planned in April, resulting in the death of nearly all
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 6: fourteen hundred right at DRI members.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: Which not seem efficient as a plan. If you have
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: these assets in Cuba and you're not even gonna tell them,
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, granted, I get the idea, you don't know
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: who of them could be double agents. You don't want
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: to give the operation away. But as we well know,
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: Castro knew bea Pigs was coming, invasion was coming well before.
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 6: Right, you missed what's buried in the headline there he's
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 6: about just fourteen hundred random Cuban exiles. These are fourteen
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 6: hundred members of the DRE who were all killed because
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 6: they were not given the correct information. And if you
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 6: think that that wouldn't have pissed off the DRE if
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 6: they didn't have a reason before all this to fucking
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 6: you know Kennedy, right, you're the CIA would have been
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 6: like what nuts Kennedy.
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: Of course, But but you're talking about fourteen hundred deary
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: members that were not part of the invasion force that
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: were later outed, Oh they were.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 6: They were the ones sent into the island undercover to
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 6: take part in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Once it
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 6: hit the beaches to attack from within already, right.
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: But they weren't part of the invasion force.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 3: They were kind of a plan.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: Part of the No. I understand that, but they were
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: kind of left out to dry, would that be right?
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 3: No, they were sent in.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 6: And the plan went down weeks earlier than they were
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 6: told it was going to go down, So they weren't ready, right,
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 6: they were proper.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 7: Right, not basically.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 6: Left out to dry with no plans. No, you know, like,
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 6: what the hell is going on here?
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 3: Right? And then they killed.
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: Horrible communication and logistical work going on, and to your point,
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: you could see why certain members of the dire would
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: have been, you know, going knots over this, right.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this is the beginning of the horseshit. Okay.
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 6: So, in the wake of the failed invasion, recently inaugurated
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 6: President John F. Kennedy began to escalate the secret war.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 6: Krozier continued his work with exiles in Miami and Havana,
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 6: who in nineteen sixty two discovered that Soviet Union had
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 6: installed missiles on the island and they were ignored, Well,
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 6: they weren't ignored. They told the world that they were
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 6: there actually, and then they got in trouble.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 3: For it.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: Entered Joanes Yeah.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 6: On October twenty second, sixty one, Kennedy addressed the nation,
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 6: revealing the nuclear threat and valuing to go to war
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 6: if the missiles were not removed and returned to the US.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 3: Let's keep a missile crisis.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 6: The US and USSR ultimately reached an agreement and the
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 6: crisis ended without serious consequences, but allegedly their agreement was
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 6: horseshit at least, you know, because the DRI was saying, hey,
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 6: they still got Russian missiles and QBA guys, and then
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 6: the CIA was like, shut the fuck come, that's not
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 6: what we're telling everybody.
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 3: Shut the fuck come.
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, and.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 6: The wake of the crisis, tensions mounted between the CIA, CIA,
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 6: and DRE. Krozer was ultimately removed as as the chiefly
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 6: aison with the DRE and replaced with another officer. Krozer
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 6: was then put on leave from the CIA in August
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 6: of sixty three and was removed permanently three months later.
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 6: He went on to find a job as a postal
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 6: inspector in d C, using a faking resume provided to
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 6: him by the CIA.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: So at least they were nice enough. To do that
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 3: for him.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a nice you job.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, say a lot to Harry Holmes for us.
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I want to get your thoughts on this comment.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: Rob Yula could Luga butcher that I know Ulaka Dolga
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: Fourteen hundred deary members killed in the Bay of Pigs.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: Possibly intellectuals, military minds. No, I think they were what
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: we just established or trying to establish, because it is
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: kind of complicated.
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 6: They were not of chaos once the Bay of Pigs
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 6: invasion set off, right. They were meant to attack certain facilities,
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 6: get infrastructure in Cuba from the inside and raised support
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 6: from the inside for this invasion.
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 3: But they got called your pants down and they weren't written.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: And they're like, it's intellectuals. Yeah, I mean Dari was
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: all kind of college kids, so I guess you can
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 1: call and intellectuals. Not military trained. I think some probably were.
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: I think most probably weren't.
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 6: Well a lot of them. We're like they had gorilla training.
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 7: You know.
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 6: It wasn't like formal military training, right, but it was
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 6: enough to cut your throat into fucking jungle type training.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 6: You know what I mean, point gun shoot kill. You know,
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 6: it's not rocket science, but you know, I'm sure they
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 6: taught them how to use you know, different variations of
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 6: arms and and you know whatever, bombs, rifles, dynamite, whatever,
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 6: they had right access to gorilla training.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I thought that was a good question. So
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: thank you, Yulie.
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 7: I'll call you.
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 10: I don't know how you do that what you said,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 10: and I'm gonna save the rest for members only, Joe
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 10: next Wednesday night.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 3: There is more to the story, but we'll get there again.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think we've covered her a lot. Ross
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: Krozer definitely not someone that's talked about, probably as much
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: as he should should be, not saying he's involved or whatever.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: I have some documents that I think I'm going to
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: leave for members only that talk about some of his
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: reassignments in nineteen sixty three May and in June and
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: then getting relieved from the job and then going to
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: the Post Office personal data sheet regarding his old background.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 6: And I've got in that information on Frank Sturgist from
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 6: members of his own family. So tune in next Wednesday
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 6: for part two of this fascinating Disavowed by the CIA episode,
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 6: because there is more, lots more.
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there is, and uh, look out for maybe some
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: other content in the days ahead. And uh, let me.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 3: G T D G D or real quick before you
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 6: Uh, let me just sum up as to why I
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 6: think Krozier was replaced as le a d R liaison.
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, sure.
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 6: He would have been, let's say, liked and respected by
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 6: member certain members of the DR. I think he was
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 6: too close to them, and it's quite possible that he
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 6: was simple aesthetic to their cause more than maybe the agencies.
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 6: And again, it's hard to control these guys and what
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 6: they're doing. Yeah, and you saw his glowing reviews from
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 6: his early uh employment, well employment in quotes with the
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 6: CIA's contract employment. You know, this guy was an all
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 6: around a plus plus plus operator, glowing reviews. You know,
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 6: nothing but good stuff said about him. Until we get
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 6: to nineteen sixty three, which is where everything changes, and
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 6: they fire his ass.
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 3: And re signed.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, technically, I guess, yeah, if he wasn't technically employed,
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 1: I guess you technically get fired.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 6: But his contract was not renewed after sixty three, we'll
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 6: put it that way. Okay, Yes, but they helped him
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 6: out with finding a job so he could take care
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 6: of his.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 3: Family and all that and that's great, but more on
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 3: that next Wednesday.
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 11: Members only, do you think let me ask you this, Rob,
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 11: do you think because he had spent so much time
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 11: in Cuba and was maybe more on the operational side,
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 11: if you will, do you think that could have had
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 11: any effect on them putting in? I know what his
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 11: title was, it was kind of propaganda too, But do
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 11: you think that could have impacted why they put someone
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 11: like Joann Ed's in when the d ARE is causing
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 11: all these problems, because hey, let's have like a non
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 11: operator operating, if you will.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's basically what I've just said, because I think
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 6: he was too close to them and it really sympathetic
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 6: to them, and you know, realize the frustrations of not
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 6: being able to do anything right and having the shackles
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 6: put on these guys and him having to say no, no,
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 6: you know, you've all got great ideas and we can't
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 6: do anything. We can't do anything right now, we can't
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 6: do anything right now. Sorry, we can't do any of
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 6: that right now. We can just do propaganda right now.
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 6: But that no operations, no operations, and these guys really
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 6: wanted to get to Castros, asked Man. I'm telling you,
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 6: and imagine the frustration of being told no after you know,
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 6: Krozer was probably you know, he's an operator. You know,
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 6: he's in the fields. He's doing the same thing that
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 6: these guys will want to do, and he couldn't let him.
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: He had to tell him, right, and even a step
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: further rob the thought process coming from the brass of
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: the top of the CIA. Right, you're talking Holmes, Guess
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: at the time, whatever, this dude can't get the dr
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: under control, let's put in someone that maybe isn't as
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: closely connected to them.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 6: Well, I don't think his purview was to control the DRE, right,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 6: he's the liaison, right, And I think they installed Joe.
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 3: And Nids to.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 6: Impose the will of the CIA to more better try
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 6: to control the DRE because of all the things that
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 6: they were doing off script and the frustrations that are
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 6: mounting in the DRE when it comes to the CIA
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 6: and Kennedy and things are starting to get hot and
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 6: heated and come to a head. And then by the
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 6: end of sixty three, we have a presidential assassination on
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 6: our hands because these guys are realizing we're never going
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 6: to be able to get the Castro, but you know
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 6: what we can do.
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 12: But kil Kennedy, Yeah, you know, I kinda I don't
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 12: want to use the sports analogy here because I'm not
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 12: sure it's quite appropriate.
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: But for example, the Mets yesterday fired their manager. Things
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: weren't going well. Dearie was causing problems.
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 3: Crozer was sympathetic to them and and running them.
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: Before Joe Edes. So things aren't going well. Pressure gets,
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: you know, whether it's baseball fan pressure or CIA pressure
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: or whatever the hell. Sometimes you just need to make
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: a change.
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And it could have been part of that than Joe,
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 6: and Needes was right as a liaison. He may have
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 6: had a more hands off approach as far as trying
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 6: to ConTroll what the dri was doing. And they installed
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 6: Joe and need to be like, hey, you need to
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 6: put the fucking handcuffs on these guys, put the gags
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 6: on these fucking guys, deal with them a little longer.
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 6: They were already talking about defunding them at the time.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 6: They hadn't yet pulled that plug.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 3: But it was coming. Yeah, yeah, it was coming.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 6: There was the second invasion of Cuba planned for the
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 6: end of November sixty three, allegedly loosely that never did
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 6: come to fruition. And I don't know if it was
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 6: because of Kennedy's assassination or not, or other things, but
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 6: it would appear that things were coming to a head
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 6: there in nineteen sixty three between the DRE and the
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 6: CIA and Kennedy and Castro and all of that.
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: And yeah, this is all just building up to the
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: breaking point almost right points that.
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 3: You will, yes, Lady Hancock.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: But now you're right, it really was, and and it
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 1: was building over the course of years, over.
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 3: The course of years.
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 6: Yes, and uh, you know, we see how it ended.
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 6: So tune in next Wednesday for more for part two
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 6: and Joe grab the goddamn dog.
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 3: All right, I will thank you, come to Bourbon. Thank you, Yes,
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 3: thank you, Luna, You've got it. I love you.
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 7: I do.
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 3: Uh but.
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 13: I mean, you couldn't ask for a better four hundredth
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 13: episode Graduate with Tory Accolade than that, though, I mean,
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 13: so kudos to you forgetting there allegedly, and uh, thank
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 13: you for help out in the process. Trans Thank you
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 13: guys for watch the show, showing up here, for hanging
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 13: out with the comment making an interesting strange case.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 3: Ruby, you making your nose all right, folks, boys and girls,
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 3: we'll see you next Wenday. Here's the part two, this
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 3: avowed by the CIA. We'll see you in till then. Peace. Peace,