Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 3)

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Killers Amongst US: Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE! (episode 3) · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, welcome back to Killers amongst Us,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. You go in
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and out of your home, your garage, your front or
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: back door. You see the neighbors, You see people going
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: by on the street, or in your apartment building. You
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: see people in the parking lot going in and out
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: all the time. Do you ever stop and notice them? Today,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Killers amongst Us, I'm Nancy Grace. We're talking about the
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: story of a beautiful young Philly teacher, beautiful on the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: inside and the outside. Ellen Greenberg, just twenty seven years old,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: had just sent out her Saved the date announcements for
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: her wedding. She had the world by the tail of
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: what happened. Listen to this. Twenty seven year old Nollenberg
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She and her
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: boyfriend of three years he had just become engaged and
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: began planning their wedding. January twenty six, two thleven, Ellen
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: school let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: her way home, she filled up her guesting She was
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: at home with her fiance until four forty five pm,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment competence.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: When he arrived back to the apartment less than an
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: the inside. He claims he banged on the door and
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: received no response. Over the next twenty two minutes, he
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: would try to convince Helen to open the door through
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: text messages. So what happened? Why wouldn't Ellen come to
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the door? According to the fiance, take a listen to
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: our friend doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm, her
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: fiance says he forced open the door to find Ellen
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: dead on the floor of the kitchen. He stabbed twenty
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: times in the chest, neck, and head. It was a
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced dead
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating the scene and her
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide. There were
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of a struggle.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: There was no suicide. I still don't understand how you
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: can stab yourself twenty plus times, including to the side
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: of your head and the back of your neck with
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: me and All Star panel. Stephanie Farr, reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at far Away. Far
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: R Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, star of a brand new hit
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: series on True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons, Private investigator on
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Team Greenberg, Tom Brennan, renowned psychiatrists joining me out of
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the Atlanta area. Doctor Angela Arnold, you can find her
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Veteran trial lawyer, former
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: prosecutor turned defense attorney. Daryl Cohen, attorney with Cohen Cooper, Estep,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and Allen and special guests joining me Allen's dad, Josh
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Greenberg and her mother, Sandy Greenberg. You know, Sandy, we
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: were talking earlier about getting that phone call from the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: fiancee asking about Ellen. Do you remember that. Yes, Sam
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: called on our landline, which was kind of surprising because
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: we only used the cell phones. I picked it up,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: and he wanted to know if I had heard from
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Ellen because he was locked out of the apartment. And
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, she's probably drying her hair. Give it
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: a couple of minutes and you know, shouldn't be a problem.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: And the you know, the call was brief and we
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: didn't hear anything till we got to call later that
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: evening from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible happened. Actual
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: immediate reaction when you heard quote something terrible, what's happened
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: to Alex? Where's the where's the ambulance? And trying to
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: find my voice to scream from my husband? You know,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't had he called for an ambulance? I don't.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Josh Greenberg, do you know if the
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: fiance called for an ambulance? We have no way of knowing.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Find that really odd, jo Scott Morgan,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: You've been on many a scene. Wouldn't there be records
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: of who called for the ambulance? Yeah? Yeah, there would,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: And it would seem as though that the initial finder,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: who in this case is this boyfriend, would have been
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: the individual to have, you know, taken up the mantle
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: here and merely dialed nine one one, but at the
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: bottom one when the police arrived. I don't understand why
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: an ambulance would not have come out to the scene
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: at least to do an initial assessment, even if it's
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: just to walk up to the door and the police say,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: now she's gone, you guys need to back out. This
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: is now crime scene. Is to go ahead, jump in,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: mister Goldberg. V Goldberg did, in fact, when he made
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: entry into the apartment, did call nine one one. We
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: do have that nine one one call, that's right, And
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: the operator explained to him about doing CPR. Yeah, And
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: that's when he approached the victims. He was wait a minute,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: wait a minute. He had not approached her yet. No,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump in also here, so we're all jumping in.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I believe that. He said to the nine one one operator,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: do I have to No, now, wait a minute, Josh,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: let's get it straight. Okay, okay, Tom. He approached the victim,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: the operator asked him if he knew how to administer CPR.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Sam Goldberg said that he didn't. She said, I'll basically
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: walk you through it. He knelt down beside her and
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: he said, oh my god, she's got a knife in
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: her chest. She must have fell out a knife. And
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: she said, don't touch anything. Don't touch anything. Stop right there.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And when he knelt down, he said, do I have
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: to do this? And she said yeah, And he said, ah,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: so he's the one that didn't in fact make the
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: nine one one call. We do have video security video
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: when the emf R Department personnel arrived at the scene
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: and were escorted to the elevator by the concierge. What
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I find amazing is that the individual EMS person from
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: the fire department that pronounced Ellan at six forty pm
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: and his lieutenant, we're never interviewed by the homicide investigator.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Stephanie Farr, reporter with the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. As I recall, the
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia inquire A release a front page report that went
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: over the circumstances surrounding Allen's death, and we learned that
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: we're now pathologists. Cyril Wecked you recalled challenge at John
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: FK Single person Assassination reviewed the case and say that
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: it was strongly suspicious of homicide. Anne also say I
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: don't know how they wrote this off as a suicide. Also,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: a man that I respect greatly, Henry Lee, as you
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: recall from O. J. Simpson Fame, reviewed the case and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: he also concluded the number and types of wounds and
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: bloodstained patterns observed are consistent with a homicide, saying what
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: else was in the Philadelphia Inquirer's front page report Stephanie.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: We went from the beginning when when Sandy and Josh
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: got the call that night, through the investigation that occurred
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in my interviews with police when they arrived on scene.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Initially it was treated as a suicide that night for
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: several reasons. The apartment door lock was a big factor
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: of the case for police. The fact that Sam Goldberg
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: had remained on scene and was cooperative was also one,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: and that there were no signs of an intruder or
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: in the lack of defensive factored heavily in their determination. Also,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: it's my understanding the police did not realize how many
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: times she had been stabbed at the scene that night,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: while they didn't see the nice in her chest. It
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: was only the next day at autopsy that all twenty
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: of the wounds were discovered. Joe scot Way in, if
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I could just go back to what as far was
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: saying just a moment ago about the nature of these
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: wounds and not being able to assess them at the scene,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: that's that's certainly part of the course. That's not anything
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: that is unusual because there's such a copious amount of
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: blood in these cases, and that goes to a bigger issue.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: She had lost a tremendous amount of blood in this
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: particular case, So you can't you can't assess the body
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: at the scene and really know what's going on. So
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: you know, when you look at this in total, is
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: it possible at the scene, at that moment time to
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: contextualize what's going on. I think that just because these
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: cases where you have quote unquote self inflicted stab wounds
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: are rare, I mean very rare. I think over the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: course of a twenty plus year career at the Emmy
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: in Atlanta and New Orleans, UM, I may have worked,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I may have worked a total of five self inflicted
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: suicide cases. You just don't come along because there's so
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: much pain involved. You mean suicide by knife? Yes, yes,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: self inflicted knife wounds. And I'm not I'm not talking
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: about an individual. Let's see, I'd say that I have one,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: uh that was in fact a woman that I know
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: of the other men, but this is the one thing
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: they all had had in common. Single stab. No, no,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I would have multiple stab but this is the one
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: thing they all had in common. Uh. They were being
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: treated I think probably uh probably four were all being
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: treated for uh some type of severe mental illness. That
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: brought on manic phases or delusional phases, and I just
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: don't I don't see evidence of that here. I want
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: to circle back to what we know about the injuries
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: to Ellen, because it's my understanding that there was one
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: particular stab wound that penetrated Ellen's brain, and we know
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: that was not the last stab wound because the knife
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: was found in her chest. And I want to apologize
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: to mister and missus Greenberg for discussing her wounds so
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: oh gosh, surgically. But the significance of this one stab
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: to her brain. I don't understand how a stab to
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: the brain and the spinal cord a would not have
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: caused incredible pain and nerve dysfunction if you're stabbed in
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: the brain, traumatic brain injuries, So how could you then
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: go ahead and distab yourself in the chest after that?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: That's let me go to Tom Brennan on that. What
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: do you make of that? Um If you take a
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: look at it, one particular wound um the wound track,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: it penetrates the spinal cord and goes in an upward
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: upward direction into the brain and causing causes hemorrhaging in
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: the brain. So that one will loan Um would have
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: totally incapacitated the victim or would have caused them. And
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: that is exactly what you told, doctor oz Listen. We
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: engaged a neuro forensic pathologist who I had worked worked
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: with in the past, and um he studied all of
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: the information that I had and it was his opinion
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: that this was a homicide and not a suicide. And
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: he said the wounds would have severed the nerves in
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: the spinal cord. And if you take if you look
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: at the wound track, the wound track goes in and
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: up direction into the brain and causes a hemorrhage in
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: the brain. So following that that wound itself, the victim
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: could no longer self hard Do you just got Morgan?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Yeah, Nancy, this is
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: what I make of it. Just like Tom is saying,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: this wound track itself would penetrate into an area that
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: involves a primal brain that you know kind of controls
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: our autonomic nervous system. You know, there's things that you know,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: we don't think obviously about our heart beating. We want
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: to tell our heart to be It's not like picking
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: up a can of soda. So these are primal brain functions,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: and you know, you couple that with the injuries that
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: she sustained with her there's a nick to her a order.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: I believe there's injury to to her the lobe of
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: one of her lungs. And that means what that's saying
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: is that there would have been just a tremendous amount
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: of internal blood loss. So that coupled with the insult
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: to uh to uh, this insult to the brain would
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: have been it's it's a it's a double whammy. I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: don't see how you get past this as an investigator
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: or in as a forensic pathologist being able to frame
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: this like they are. Let's talk about the scene itself. UM,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the layout of the apartment.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: What can you tell me, Josh and Sandy about the
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: layout of her apartment? Was that what level? Was it on? First? Second, third?
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: It was on the sixth floor, and I think that
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: was pretty sure that, yeah, was on the sixth floor.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: And there were no cameras in the hallways correct. I
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: don't know, but I could tell you that when you
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: walk down the hallway, I could hear Ellen talking in
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: her kitchen, which is the room that when the door
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: opens up, that's what you enter into. Do we know,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, if there was any stairway that led to
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: the top of the building or emergency stairs that led down.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: There are stairs that you made down from the sixth floor,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and according to the concierge, there are there were entryways
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: at that time that could be accessed and the individual
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: or individuals could avoid being detected with the security cameras. Okay,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: so there were emergency stairs and you could access them
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: without being detected by cameras. Was the trash collected, Tom Brennan?
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: And was the dumpster searched Tom Brennan that serviced the
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: apartment and the trash shoot. So the trash in the apartment,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the trash shoot and the outside dumpster was his, the
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: fiance's car and trunk searched. Were the door knobs to
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the access the emergency stairway printed? And was the shower
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: recently used? Do we know any of those answers? None
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: of that was done by the police that said even
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: that night. So bottom line to that, Daryl Cohen, you
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: and I have seen a lot of murders. Darryl. It
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: would have been so easy given the circumstances. I'm hearing
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: for a purp to murder Ellen, to take a shower,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: to leave the apartment, to go down the emergency stairwell,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: to dump bloody clothing or whatever the case may be
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: evidence in a dumpster or in a car trunk, and
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: it was never searched. Would you agree that's possible? I
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: absolutely agree, But I also have questions these other access points.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Did they require a fob? Did they require a key?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I know they were about under camera surveillance, but could
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: someone have entered because it was open? And the other part,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: of course, is that when the perp, if there was one.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: And I'm very concerned with the stab wound to the head,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: which brings up another question to the brain. Was Joe
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: was that instantaneous when the stab woud went to the brain?
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Was she could no longer? Now what? I'm not an MD,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I'm in JD, but I can tell you this, When
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: you get a stab to the brain, it's instant darryl Okay, well,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: I mean really no offense or where did you go
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: to law school? Mercer or Nyffy. I got to say,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you know a reference to what Daryl's Darrel's comment is
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and this is something that's kind of troubling from me.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Please put it in a nutshell, Okay, all right, she
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: had she had an insult to her spinal cord that
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: was examined by the neuropathologist. There's no indication the autopsy
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: report that forgive me parents, that they took her brain
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: and sent it to to a neurologist neuropath to examine
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the brain. It's the forensic pathologist that is making the
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: assessment on the brain. Why not take the extra step
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and include a spinal cord as well as the brain,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: because right now I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: it in any of the reports that I've read in
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: that again, is troubling to me as someone that looks
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: at cases involving death exactly. You know, I said I
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: wasn't an MD, but we actually have an MD on
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the panel, doctor Angela. Arnold. Psychiatrists, you have to be
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: an MD before you become a psychiatrist's right, Doctor Angie.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I just find it really hard to believe that you
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: could take a knife on into the brain and it
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: not be instant, and you still have the wherewithal to
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: plunge a knife into your chest. That is total b yes,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: this is total Yes, Nancy, you can't do it. And
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: also to do something like that to yourself, you would
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you would have Typically when women do things like that
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: to themselves, like it's women kill themselves. They have such
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: a hatred for themselves, okay, and they almost they would
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: almost associate and do this. But there is no way
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: that after stabbing yourself in the brain, that you could
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: pull the knife out and stab yourself again. Ridiculous, ridiculous.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: I want to again try to get back to the
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: layout of the apartment, Sandy Greenberg Tolmy. It was the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: sixth floor, and then we went down the rabbit hole
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: of the emergency exit stairwell. Was there a balcony, Sandy, No,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: there was. You could open up the wind I don't
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: actually remember, but it looks like a faux balcony, but
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: you couldn't really go out those little attachment things. But
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: you can't really go out there. So there's no other exit.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: There's no other way down except the elevator and the
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: emergency stairwell. There's no sign of an intruder. But again,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I want to go over very carefully, Tom Brennan, the
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: condition of that lock, the lot that was a lot
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: from the inside, and the fiance he said he couldn't
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: he couldn't get in because she alleged to him locked
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: it on the end's high. Did you ever get to
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: see or were there photos taken off the lock to
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: show it had been splintered open when the fiance says
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: he broke the door down. When I first got involved,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't go through the over the seame photographs and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: there are very good photographs of the condition of this
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: sliding bar lock. Okay, And if you take a look
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: at it, and I have been trained in lock picking.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I did surreptitious entries when I was the law enforcement,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: so I'm very familiar with lock If you take a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: look at the lock, the one pieces mounted on the door,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: the other pieces mounted on the door down. The piece
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: mounted on the door is mounted for its four screws.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: The door is a particle board door, so there's damage
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to that piece and it's uh, there is one screw missing,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: and there are pieces of the particle board door that
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: should be on the floor. Well, if you take a
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: look at the photographs, that screw is that missing is
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: not visible, that fell out, and the that would particles
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that came from as a result of damaging that that
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: mounting are not there either. The lock on the door,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: the fiance said, precluded him from getting in. He had
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: to break the door down. Part of it was still on,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: still attached. It had four screws. One screw was missing
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: and never found, as if it had been unscrewed right,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: not broken down. The screw went flying. It was missing
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: right and particles from breaking the door down. We're not
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: on the floor according to these photos. Very curious, Very curious.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Another thing in the home. Was the home ransacked in
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: any way? Tom Brennan's No, not at all. She was
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in the kitchen with her sitting up in the kitchen
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: floor with her back as if she were leaning against
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: one of the counters. What had she been doing prior
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: to her death, Josh Greenberg? I believe she was claying
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: up fruit and making fruit salad. So this is a
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: woman who speaks to her mom that day. Everything's fine,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: She's preparing for her wedding. She leaves school early. She
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: calls all the parents, your children coming home early, get ready.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: She comes home, she starts making she feels up her
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: gas tank so she won't go in empty the next day.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: WHI should I find highly significant. If I were going
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to kill myself, the last thing I'd worry about was
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: having an empty tank in the car. Last thing. And
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: then starts making a fruit salad, and somewhere in chopping
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the apples and the oranges and the bananas, she decides
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to kill herself. It's all wrong, doctor, Angela Arnold, you're
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the shrink. I'm a lawyer, but I can tell you
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: that's not right. No, it's not Nancy. And that's why
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: we do study patterns of behavior. And you know, typically
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: also when somebody's going to kill themselves, they they sort
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: of start telling people goodbye, they give things away, their
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: mood changes a little bit, and they're very and they're
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: very overcome with a good feeling about getting out of
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: their pain. There's been no indication that this woman was
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: in any pain, like there's psychiatric pain. There's no indication
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: that she was in any kind of pain. The woman
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: had just sent out her saved the dates. And I
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: completely agree with you. Who fills up their car with
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: gas prior to committing suicide? Angela? This is Darryl. Is
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: it unusual for someone to instantaneously decide I'm going to
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: convince to it. I'm chopping apples, I'm chopping all the fruit,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and then oh my god, I can't handle and this anymore,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and I've done yes. That is completely unusual. People that
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: typically people that commit suicide have thought about it for
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: a very long time, as long as as they are,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and they are so depressed that finally they start feeling
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: a little bit better and they have the energy to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: commit suicide and it puts them out of their misery.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Twenty stab wounds tend to the back of the net,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: one to the scalp, to her chest, horrible slash across
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: her abdomen. Then I still lodged in her chest. I've
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: never heard anything like it. And her parents, Sandy and
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg and says, there is no way she would
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: have committed suicide. What about it, Josh? Things were not
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: totally right with Ellen. She wanted to come home, which
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: is very unusual. If you send out save the date
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: cards and you're happy and you're gonna have a wedding.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: So at the time I was very concerned about Ellen
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: because I didn't know what was going on, But I
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: was also being a father. I didn't want her to
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: walk away from a very good job. So Ellen and
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I made a deal that I would hire Sandy and
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I would hire a psychiatrist, Ellen Burman, very well known,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: very excellent credentials for Ellen to talk to. And if
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: she said Ellen could come home, she could doctor Burman
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and her notes, Siphily says, not suicidal. We had a
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: forensic psychologists look at doctor Bourbon's notes. The diagnosis was
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: adjustment disorder with anxiety. Anxiety is the type of thing
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you're on the Pennsylvania Turnpike and a big truck comes
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: alongside you. You feel anxious. You don't feel suicidal, but
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: you're anxious. Your heartbeats faster, and you're not so happy.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Ellen was not suicidal by an expert, not by me.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Tell me about Ellen's funeral, Sandy, Oh boy, well we
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: fit was you know. Obviously there were FLTs of snow.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: So we had it in our synagogue rather than the
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: chapel at the cemetery, and it was filled to capacity.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: People were standing around all the margins of the funeral,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: and Josh spoke and I, I don't know how I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: got through it, but I did somehow a lot of
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: what's happening immediately after Ellen's death for both of us
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: was a blank. We just didn't know what was going on.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I did speak. I managed to come up with the
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: concept that if we all closed our eyes, Ellen would
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: be all around us in our minds, and that's how
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: we should remember Ellen. It was also an important announcement
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I made that day. That's when the medical examiners said
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: this was a homicide, not a suicide. How I found
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: that out was by people telling me. The medical examina
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: never called me, the Philadelphia Last never spoke to me,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: and that's announce that I made. I can't tell you
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: any more about the eulogy I made, except to think
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: of Ellen will always be around us in spirit. And
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: if you read some of the writings by her students
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: and parents, with the students in the memorialization book or
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: whatever you call it a funeral home, they think of
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Ellen and some of them even have done that years
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: after her death, her homicide. Did the fiance come to
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: the funeral? Yes? Yes? Did he speak? Now? What was
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: his demeanor? His parents were holding him up and he
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: was You know, we had people who suspected or they
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: didn't like his behavior, were very sympathetic to us. That's
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: all I can say. But there was a show going on,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: why did you say that the room was filled? He
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: couldn't speak because father had to hold up a man
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: as opposed to somebody who was a future husband, who's
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: justin lost his fiancee to a brutal suicide or whatever,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: and he couldn't speak. He couldn't he couldn't bring himself
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: to what I would say, to be a man and
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: show how much he cared. Ellen Greenberg loses her life
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: at age twenty seven and still no justice. Nancy Grace
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: killers amongst us. Goodbye friend,