Latest / The Curve / RTC56: Why does the gender pay gap exist and how can we change it?

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RTC56: Why does the gender pay gap exist and how can we change it? · The Curve

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Curve Podcast, a conversation for women who want to learn more about money,
• 0:07
  their money for the future they want to have. We're all busy and the pursuit for financial
• 0:12
  confidence and increasing your wealth should be a simple one.
• 0:16
  This podcast is for women to learn about investing in a non-scary or intimidating way.
• 0:21
  With short episodes, you'll have time to learn, digest and understand everything to do
• 0:26
  with the world of investing. So thank you for being here and for listening.
• 0:30
  Because together, we really can raise the curve.
• 0:33
  Firstly, I want to start. We put a post on Instagram a while ago.
• 0:37
  Some of you may have seen it, some of you may have not, but it got a lot of engagement
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  and I just wanted to reiterate it here in the podcast because it is very, very relevant.
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  So here we go. Oh, sorry, did you want to drum roll, isn't it?
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  Yeah, it's raining. Wait, wait, wait.
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  So in the US, 6% of the S&P 500 companies, so that's the top 500 companies on the US stock market,
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  they have a female CEO. So that's only 31 companies out of the top 500.
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  In Australia, it's not much better. It's about 7% or 14 companies in the AASX 200,
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  so the main index there. And in New Zealand, drum roll.
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  We have 8%. So we're winning, but it's off a very, very low base.
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  So we have four companies in the NZX50 with a female CEO.
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  Four out of 50.
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  Four out of 50. And one of those we have in the makeshift studio.
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  Jolly, thank you so much for agreeing to be on our podcast.
• 1:41
  Thank you very much for having me.
• 1:44
  We could have Justin Bieber, and that could be more excited to be talking to you.
• 1:48
  Ah, marginally, marginally.
• 1:50
  No, thank you for coming in. So Jolly is the CEO of Spark.
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  So one of New Zealand's top 50 companies and publicly listed on the stock exchange.
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  But the other great thing about Spark is, I love my enthusiasm.
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  I'm like, I'm really impressed. I want to listen to the rest there.
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  So I'm just going to sit back, relax and eat some popcorn.
• 2:12
  No, so the other great thing about Spark.
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  Well, it was great. It's also very unfortunate.
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  But Spark is the only company on the NZX50 that has a female CEO and a female chairperson.
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  Which is amazing.
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  Could we maybe explain the difference between a chairperson and a CEO?
• 2:31
  Yeah. Because honestly, that sounds like the same thing to me.
• 2:33
  Yes. Yeah, maybe.
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  So a chairperson sits on our board.
• 2:37
  Well, our chair is just as smart and you're right.
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  We are the only NZX50 with both a female chair and a female CEO.
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  So CEO is obviously branding the business.
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  The chair sits in the house to govern the business from that board.
• 2:51
  Yeah. So the board tells the CEO what to do.
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  Ha, we get bored in some instances.
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  Well, yes, in some ways the chair is my boss.
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  Yes, that's it.
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  Also, the chairperson is kind of almost like the advisory board in a way.
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  So they're not super involved in day-to-day basis, but they're, is that right?
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  Well, boards meet regularly and not any particular, if there was a big issue running
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  or something that we needed them to be involved on, that would be part of that.
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  So they probably meet eight to nine times a year plus separate committees.
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  So there is a process for which we engage quite regularly.
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  But day-to-day running of the businesses with the CEO and their leadership team supports me.
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  I'm so impressed.
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  It's so inspiring.
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  I know.
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  And it's like, why are we here?
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  Like in terms of having only one company?
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  We're just going to start real lightly.
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  Really?
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  I don't know.
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  I think you're wearing it.
• 3:44
  No, I mean, it is great to see that there is at least one company.
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  But I guess from your point of view, why are there not more female CEOs and chairwoman
• 3:56
  in the industry or in publicly listed companies?
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  So when I think about CEOs, part of it is having the opportunity to do the line roles.
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  So when talking about operational roles within your business, prior to getting that chance to be considered a CEO.
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  So one of the things that I think about my career and what's happened to me,
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  have that opportunity to be considered for CEO is the chance to work at a number of different parts of our business.
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  So whether that's in our customer side of the business, whether that's our technology,
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  I was to see if I for three and a bit years at Spark as well.
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  So it's that opportunity, providing opportunity early enough for people's careers that they are in the right place to be considered.
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  And that's one of the things I think a lot about in terms of succession and what's happening.
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  How do you create more?
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  What I would say is there are more people coming through.
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  If I think about my leadership team, roughly 60, 40 female male as well.
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  But when I look across two and one thing, another thing I'd notice,
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  the two of the banks have both female CEOs and female chairs.
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  So Westpac and ASP, although they're owned by the Australian parents,
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  the real ideas are large organisations within our country.
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  So we are starting to see more.
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  But it's still a long way to go from certainly any kind of even or 40, 40, 20 type approach at an exact level.
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  Yeah, like I look at those stats and I'm like, we're half the population.
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  Like surely that should be at least somewhere towards 50-50.
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  Yeah, and there's been a big focus certainly in the years and the last,
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  I've been back in New Zealand for about a decade.
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  And in that time I've seen a greater shift than I look across sort of the leadership teams of peer groups and other companies.
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  And I see more people coming through and being in that position.
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  But it takes quite a big shift in terms of...
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  Yeah, and boards thinking a lot around succession and what do they want to succession and talent in their organisation.
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  How are they thinking about placing people in roles and giving them that opportunity?
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  Do you think is a level of not mistrust?
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  But do you think in all honesty there are still some men and leadership roles that potentially don't think women leaders are going to do as good a job?
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  Like because it just seems to me quite crazy to think that I understand the generational movement and whatnot.
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  But there are so many powerful, successful, clever women that I'm sure would love to be in a role of the CEO.
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  I just don't understand why they haven't been more chance.
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  I mean, no, this is totally not.
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  It's not your fault, but I'm just curious to see how you're fault.
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  Yeah, look, I guess in any people are going to have different perspectives.
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  Some of those will, you know, you're aligned to others, you'll think,
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  that's a bit of fashion or have they been given the opportunity.
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  All I can say is the more we talk about the more we put people into positions that give them a chance to build skills
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  and we give them a chance to build the profile of what you require in a role like a CEO.
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  The more opportunity we're going to have to see more CEOs.
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  And absolutely, there are a lot of capable people out there.
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  So I don't have any concern about there's a lack of depth.
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  It's really around creating the opportunities.
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  It's also having kind of someone in your corner, you know, that's like, go for it.
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  Go for that job.
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  Not be like, oh, no, no, I'm not good enough.
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  I'm not good enough.
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  Like having someone be like, well, why not?
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  Why aren't you good enough?
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  And so I think, yes, it's having the opportunities, but I think we're sometimes our worst enemy being like,
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  oh, no, I don't have 100% of the skills for that job.
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  So I won't go for it.
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  Whereas, you know, equivalent male might be like, you know, I'm going to give it a shot.
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  And so we kind of, you know, shoot ourselves in the foot that way sometimes.
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  And I think part of that also comes down to sponsorship with an organisation.
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  So difference between, say, mentoring and sponsorship is I put my reputation on the line to recommend somebody into a role.
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  And how many people have that opportunity?
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  Have they got people who are sponsoring them?
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  In the same way, I had, say, if I think back four or five years ago,
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  when Simon, who was a CEO, moved me into one of our business units to really look to get that frontline leadership experience and operational experience,
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  he spots me into that effectively.
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  And our board supported that shift from CFOTA into that role.
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  So those, you need people like that who are prepared to take, put their reputation,
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  and take some risk with them, it's balanced risk, though.
• 8:14
  Yeah.
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  If you're given the right circumstances, then you'll flourish if you've got that real desire as well.
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  So I think there's a combination of making choices that you step forward towards risk.
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  So I've had, you know, shifted industries, I've shifted countries, I've shifted with you call it functional expertise from finance through to running a business.
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  That isn't without risk.
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  So you've also got to be able to put yourself in that place that you're comfortable to take that,
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  and really have that appetite to learn and own your own career.
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  You need things around you to help support that, but taking ownership of what you want to do,
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  and having those conversations, I think, to your point,
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  and then being focused on what you do bring to a role, not what any deficit might be.
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  And I think there's a huge generalisation, but the can tend to be that, that's sort of the inspecances,
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  what I don't have, versus all the things I do have.
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  Oh, it's so good.
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  That's so inspiring, though.
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  And I think what I thought was quite interesting about that answer was, yes,
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  because to your point, like a hundred percent agree, I think there's such a lack of representation,
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  and seeing someone like you in such a powerful role, it will be so inspiring for so many young woman.
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  But at the same time, it is that, like, okay, strap in, take some risks, do the things you need to do,
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  study, look at other CEOs, what are they doing, how did they get there?
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  Yeah.
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  It's not just that back in Assume you're going to just stroll into a CEO position.
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  No, and I think having people around you, everyone needs what I call kind of their crow or their people,
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  that are the ones that give you the hard feedback, but they also are the ones that are there to support you,
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  and finding those people in your life is really important, I think, to help support.
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  No matter what role you're in at a different time, and I think they're also great feedback
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  and sounding bored when things.
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  Did you have any mentors or people who helped you to make those slightly scarier,
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  riskier decisions when it comes to your career?
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  So when you think about the shift, so I worked for Lyon, so in Australia, Kiwi, but moved over offshore.
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  Indeed.
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  And to FMCG, the conversation's over.
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  Okay, and we're done with this.
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  So we're now over there for a period of time, and had a whole lot of different roles
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  and learnt a lot, had two children well as there as well.
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  But it came to a point where I was contacted when I was back in New Zealand visiting family over Christmas
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  to say, hey, there's a potential role coming up at Telecom, are you interested in...
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  Telecom?
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  So long ago.
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  My dad worked at Telecom, he's still got the old hat, like the cap that says Telecom.
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  Many people in New Zealand have worked for Telecom over the years.
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  And so, but that was through someone who had worked with me, who had been, I guess, a sponsor.
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  Who put my name into consideration, put this thing in front of me,
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  because I wouldn't have necessarily seen it, having not been here.
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  And that started the process, that doesn't, you know, your capability gets you the job.
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  But the fact that someone has prepared to reach out and say, hey, have you seen this?
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  Would you be interested in coming in to have a chat with a team here?
• 11:20
  Yeah.
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  And that's how it started for me.
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  So, that's having that sponsorship.
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  I remember my very first job in producing was one of my guy friends put me forward for it, actually.
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  It was for the edge, like JoJo, my condom, 10 years ago.
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  And they were looking for a producer, and his name was Ryan McGuire.
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  And he was like, oh, I went to broadcasting school with my friend Sophie.
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  I think she'd be brilliant at that.
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  And that's the only reason. I wouldn't ever have even heard about that job.
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  And then from there I went over to Australia, and then I did work on Savira
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  and all of my career progression, honestly.
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  Had I not got that job, I wouldn't be doing the curve right now.
• 11:53
  Yeah, so that's a perfect example of it.
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  And play there that someone has prepared to actually put you forward and back.
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  And I think the thing with that is amazing for both of us.
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  I mean, I'm not sure if yours was a man or a woman who put you forward, but was it a guy?
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  No, it was a woman.
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  Oh, that's cool.
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  It's our current chair.
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  Oh, that's amazing.
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  She wasn't the chair when she was on the board, but she wasn't the chair.
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  Oh, that's amazing.
• 12:16
  No, I think like, you know, it is about lifting each other up.
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  And at the same time, thinking about people who might not have connections,
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  thinking about how can they then, if they don't have anyone that's in a position of power,
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  what can they do to try and put themselves in a place where maybe they could get put forward.
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  Like I'm sitting here, I'm like, I want to help someone.
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  You know?
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  Yeah, who can I help?
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  Well, it is a big thing.
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  I think a lot about when people reach out, or I'm through different things I do, I'm involved with Amping Bull,
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  which is all around helping women succeed in business.
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  So it is thinking about people have helped me through my career.
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  What do you do to get back in that's one of the things I do,
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  or with through global women and champions, which is really around CEOs working together
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  to shift that gender diversity in business and broader inclusion?
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  I would kind of talk about how it's like, I'm definitely working on our dominated industry,
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  but there is definitely men within the industry that have helped significantly.
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  It's a hard balance because we don't also on this podcast and with the curve brand,
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  we don't want to be hating on guys.
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  It's not what the point of this is at all.
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  It's more just, unfortunately, the statistics are.
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  It's so much lower in terms of the amount of women that are in those roles.
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  So it's definitely not a like out, men suck, because they're obviously amazing,
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  and they're very good at leadership roles.
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  It's more just curiosity around how can we understand your journey and learn from that.
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  I think that's partly also how you work with peers and things in other companies
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  and share ideas, which is what champions is all about,
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  actually around how we collectively move forward,
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  not just in one individual company.
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  Would you say you have quite a different leadership style to a typical...
• 13:50
  Oh, great question.
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  ...a nail.
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  Do you think that Spark is quite different, having two female leaders as such?
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  Look, I think every leader I think has a different approach.
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  I think mine is very much around, let's get clear about where we're going
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  and what we're trying to achieve.
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  And then it's about empowering others to make that step up
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  and thinking about the power of the team and how we do things
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  as much as what we're trying to achieve.
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  That's a big focus I've had.
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  So is that different to others?
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  It probably is, but there might be also women who have a different approach to me as well.
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  So I think about it more around what's the leadership that I want to have in our organisation,
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  what's the culture I want to have, and that's what I...
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  And what kind of qualities would you say stem from your personal approach?
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  I think I'm prepared to listen. I'm very approachable, generally.
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  So...
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  Really, I'm not getting that vibe.
• 14:43
  Yeah.
• 14:44
  First I saw myself, of course.
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  I actually, when I emailed you and I was like, oh, she'll take weeks to get back.
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  It was new.
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  I was like, oh, no, she won't want to be on our podcast.
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  And again, it's like dumbing down.
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  It's kind of being like, oh, no, she won't get back to it.
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  And then, yeah, straight away, I was like, oh, my gosh.
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  Oh, my gosh.
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  So I think, for me, you know, today we're all just people trying to do
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  and if there's something that I'm passionate about or want to see,
• 15:08
  and this is a particularly area that I'm passionate about, certainly engage in that.
• 15:11
  So for me, it's around how do we help people,
• 15:14
  add the things, the tools, the experiences, which I talked about that I got the opportunity to do.
• 15:19
  How do you help people get more of that?
• 15:21
  So we're stronger as overall business.
• 15:24
  So it's about personal development and education and helping people in the areas
• 15:28
  that maybe they're not super strong, and so they can succeed.
• 15:30
  Yeah, and just having that, because you can learn a lot of books
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  and but where the reality is, most of your actual learning is
• 15:38
  in job or in experience.
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  So how do you put people in the place where they're adding to that?
• 15:44
  How are you talking to them about what's the right next thing for them
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  and for the business as well?
• 15:48
  So that's been my focus throughout, I suppose, my leadership.
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  Even before I got to see before I was in, you know, it's back, I've seen this,
• 15:58
  because I've experienced it myself.
• 16:00
  I've had a very good track record of doing that too.
• 16:02
  Yes, they've got a really good track record of gender diversity as well, don't they?
• 16:06
  Yeah, I mean, I had both my children there and they had great.
• 16:09
  And that was, you know, my oldest is almost 19, so it's a long time ago.
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  I remember, I mean, it wasn't a leadership role,
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  but it was straight out of uni and studying for four years.
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  And I was like, going to the finance industry.
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  And I was like, you know what, I got this.
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  I've studied for four years.
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  This is going to be great.
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  Day one, I was like, oh dear God, I'm so out of my deep.
• 16:30
  Like this practical, going from theory to practical.
• 16:33
  And it's like, yeah, you can read about it, you can study about it,
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  but it's actually doing it in like dealing with people and
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  it's actually being in a job.
• 16:40
  It's actually really bad at dealing with people.
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  My people skills are sure she's not.
• 16:45
  One of the reasons, well, the main reason we wanted to get on the podcast was
• 16:48
  in your first half result, which you released last month,
• 16:53
  there was a point in there where you said that the gender pay gap
• 16:57
  was 22% at Spark, but it had been reduced from 28%.
• 17:01
  Yes.
• 17:02
  And if I had to identify 21, so financial year 21.
• 17:06
  So 6% improvement, which is amazing.
• 17:08
  And what a year.
• 17:09
  Over a couple years.
• 17:11
  Over a two years.
• 17:12
  So I just wanted to kind of have a chat around
• 17:15
  flushing that out a bit more in terms of what you've done to it,
• 17:19
  what caused that improvement, what even causes that a gender pay gap
• 17:23
  like that to happen?
• 17:24
  Is it the lack of females in a senior leadership role?
• 17:27
  Or is it general, like just paying women less?
• 17:30
  Yeah, it's kind of because we always talk about the gender pay gap,
• 17:34
  but we don't really unpack it.
• 17:36
  Unpack it.
• 17:37
  Yeah, so it'd be great.
• 17:38
  Yeah.
• 17:39
  Because there's a whole range of things.
• 17:40
  I think so if we start with our, back in 2019,
• 17:43
  we decided that we would voluntarily disclose our gap.
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  Mostly because it was about transparency.
• 17:49
  And we knew we had work to do in there,
• 17:51
  but we thought, if she's going out and setting an example of a company
• 17:55
  that's not saying they're perfect by an institution of imagination,
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  but saying, hey, this is important to us.
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  This is where we are.
• 18:01
  We do want to keep moving forward.
• 18:03
  And now let's get a bit of colour as to why are we like that?
• 18:06
  And what is it about?
• 18:07
  So it's a combination of factors.
• 18:09
  So one of those you touched on in terms of, is it around what roles are people in?
• 18:15
  So yes, it's a seniority thing, but there's also a type of career.
• 18:20
  So if you think about our organisation, I've got over 5,000 people.
• 18:23
  I've got a mixer people from context centers, retail stores,
• 18:26
  really deep technical expertise, data and automation,
• 18:29
  or all of those types of skills.
• 18:31
  They have quite different salary profiles for those roles.
• 18:35
  And depending on where people come,
• 18:37
  or what they study at school, et cetera.
• 18:39
  So what we see in a lot of the legacy tech and new tech,
• 18:43
  a lot of male and higher roles, and with the experience set,
• 18:47
  we have more women in some of the context center, et cetera.
• 18:50
  So you get this immediate, not different pay for same role,
• 18:55
  but if you look at our overall organisation,
• 18:57
  we have more men in these roles and more women in these roles.
• 19:00
  And then when you add that, do the median of that, that gives you the difference.
• 19:03
  That's so interesting, because I always thought that it was more people.
• 19:06
  In the same role, I just get in kind of shaft.
• 19:09
  And also they're needed to look at.
• 19:11
  If we want to see more women in some of the tech roles, for example,
• 19:15
  how are we encouraging the pipeline?
• 19:17
  It's so good to hear such a holistic explanation,
• 19:20
  because I think it makes me, personally, more mad,
• 19:24
  without that contextual understanding that it's actually probably starting
• 19:29
  from an education standpoint.
• 19:30
  It's way back to representation in different industries,
• 19:34
  so that more women learn and grow and then into the workforce,
• 19:38
  into those higher paying roles.
• 19:40
  It's not as simple as, oh, because of your genitalia,
• 19:43
  we're actually going to pay you less than the person next to you.
• 19:45
  You know, it's actually not that simple.
• 19:47
  Not saying that that may not happen back,
• 19:49
  but I think there are complex reasons for why.
• 19:52
  And that can sometimes be seen as a reason for not making progress.
• 19:56
  So we're still very much about making progress,
• 19:58
  but we know it will take a number of years to get a number of women
• 20:02
  we'd need to see into some of those roles in it,
• 20:05
  because there's less coming out of university,
• 20:07
  in a particular trade, or so how do we encourage,
• 20:10
  how do we make it attractive to people like,
• 20:12
  why would you want to come and learn?
• 20:14
  And so it's trying to actually break down some of the barriers
• 20:17
  to what actually does that job do.
• 20:19
  And it's so true, even when I was at school,
• 20:21
  a career in finance was never even touched on.
• 20:24
  It was like, doctor accountant,
• 20:26
  and it was this kind of, you had these pigeon holes,
• 20:29
  and it wasn't, I remember even being like,
• 20:31
  getting to university, I was like, what is management 101, the paper?
• 20:34
  I was like, what is a manager, you know, like I just had no idea.
• 20:36
  And it's kind of, if you have even, yeah,
• 20:39
  the opportunity to go into these workplaces and see what people do,
• 20:42
  it's just like, oh, I might actually be good at that,
• 20:44
  or I might actually be interested in that.
• 20:46
  So yeah, that's amazing.
• 20:47
  But it takes every individual leader to make a change too.
• 20:51
  Or not to really be thinking hard about how that doing these things
• 20:55
  and why they're doing it.
• 20:57
  I think what would be a really cool thing for us to do,
• 20:59
  is to create a salary bracket with all different industries
• 21:03
  and jobs and showcase that.
• 21:05
  So if you're a doctor from ages this to this,
• 21:07
  you could earn between this and this.
• 21:09
  You know, like actually have almost like a table of reference
• 21:12
  for different jobs and industries.
• 21:14
  Because I think you're right, there's such a,
• 21:16
  like some people are really driven by money.
• 21:18
  Some people choose to be a lawyer,
• 21:20
  because they want to be really financially secure
• 21:22
  and they know what that letter looks like in terms of progression.
• 21:24
  Because up until now, there's been so many companies
• 21:26
  that don't have that transparency of level one, two or three.
• 21:29
  People aren't necessarily maybe making informed choices
• 21:33
  as to what they want to study and what industries they want to go into
• 21:36
  with all of that knowledge.
• 21:38
  Yeah. So part of it is a chance to work with schools,
• 21:41
  to work with education facilities.
• 21:42
  And a lot of the work we've been doing in champions
• 21:44
  is to try and understand,
• 21:45
  how do we do that collectively, rather than each of us going
• 21:48
  with our own program to school.
• 21:50
  Schools have a lot going on,
• 21:52
  but it is partly about showcasing what's there
• 21:55
  and doing it in a more organised way.
• 21:57
  And so what's your target?
• 21:59
  She's a numbers girl.
• 22:01
  If I, 25, I've got a target of 18%.
• 22:04
  So down from there until 26.
• 22:06
  And that just reflects, you know,
• 22:08
  1% doesn't sound a huge amount,
• 22:10
  but when you're trying to move that on 5,000,
• 22:12
  that is actually a big movement in a half.
• 22:15
  And the reality is for me,
• 22:17
  it's most important we're moving
• 22:19
  and we're taking the action to make the shifts.
• 22:23
  And I said it's a combination both of bringing people in,
• 22:26
  making sure people are talent is coming through
• 22:28
  the organisation where it should,
• 22:30
  opening up positions and really thinking about
• 22:33
  what is the right next experience for this individual
• 22:36
  to put them in the best place?
• 22:38
  I love that.
• 22:39
  Super inspiring.
• 22:40
  Yeah. It's just cool, I think, to hear...
• 22:43
  I don't know.
• 22:44
  We hear some pretty horrible stories out female bosses
• 22:47
  being quite unsupportive of their female staff,
• 22:50
  which is such an interesting concept to me.
• 22:52
  But I think just hearing someone in your role
• 22:55
  who is in a position to actually make a difference
• 22:57
  to a lot of people's career trajectories
• 23:00
  and financial stability,
• 23:02
  like it's really amazing to hear actionable things
• 23:04
  being put in place to make differences.
• 23:06
  Another thing that we wanted to speak about,
• 23:08
  so we've got our anonymous salary spreadsheet
• 23:10
  where a lot of people put their salaries in
• 23:13
  just so that they can compare what other people are on.
• 23:16
  Based on what you said in terms of the different tiers
• 23:19
  and different roles, does that mean there's going to be
• 23:21
  some kind of website or visible part of for employees
• 23:25
  to see what other people at different levels are earning?
• 23:28
  What we've tried to do is with the contribution models
• 23:30
  to be clear about what you earn at a different level.
• 23:33
  What we don't have, I think, is what you're talking about
• 23:35
  is a broader spreadsheet.
• 23:36
  I mean, that has pluses and minuses too.
• 23:38
  Yeah, because I was going to ask about that.
• 23:40
  It's quite funny, isn't it?
• 23:41
  For employees and employers around that,
• 23:43
  because there is still colour and context to understand
• 23:45
  that that's not to hide from a point of view of,
• 23:47
  that's why we feel strongly about disclosing things
• 23:50
  like the gender pay gap and things to try and,
• 23:53
  and when looked to continue to increase,
• 23:56
  every year we're adding something different
• 23:58
  or some different part of our organisation
• 24:00
  because it's also not only gender is a focus too,
• 24:03
  there's different ethnicities and things like that.
• 24:05
  So we're focusing more and more on,
• 24:07
  and if we want to be an inclusive culture
• 24:09
  which I believe we are, how do we continue to role model that?
• 24:14
  But you've also got to make sure you really understand what you're doing
• 24:16
  when you're starting to, what does,
• 24:19
  and it does, it sounds like it comes a lot down to data,
• 24:21
  but it doesn't away.
• 24:22
  Really understanding what's happening in your organisation,
• 24:24
  how do you move that?
• 24:25
  What if it's not appealing to certain parts of a community?
• 24:27
  Why isn't that?
• 24:28
  And what are we doing about it?
• 24:30
  Which we started with gender.
• 24:32
  Now we're looking more broadly within that as well
• 24:34
  to understand more about that.
• 24:35
  That's great.
• 24:36
  Yeah, it's kind of like, when you look at boards
• 24:41
  and they've got a target of a certain number of females
• 24:45
  to be on that board,
• 24:47
  or you look at a board and they've got one female
• 24:49
  that they're trophying or,
• 24:51
  and it's like, that's just such tokenism,
• 24:53
  and it's like, no, you should be really encouraging
• 24:56
  more females to be on boards
• 24:59
  or to be in senior leadership positions,
• 25:01
  not just having a female there as a box tip.
• 25:04
  You want it to be,
• 25:06
  the reason behind having diversity
• 25:09
  is because you make better decisions,
• 25:11
  and you can see the world in a much,
• 25:13
  if you're a ballistic way.
• 25:15
  Well, it's increasingly proven that businesses perform better
• 25:18
  when they have a more diverse group of people
• 25:22
  than their organisation,
• 25:23
  and I think that there's been many, many studies done on that.
• 25:26
  So really it's then, okay, so what is it?
• 25:28
  What's the process?
• 25:29
  How do you actually go about doing that in a more considered way?
• 25:32
  So your point, so it isn't around,
• 25:34
  or we've been able to say,
• 25:36
  yes to this and take something,
• 25:39
  it's actually about standing back and saying,
• 25:41
  what do we think that looks like in our organisation?
• 25:43
  So for us, we talk about 40, 40, 20,
• 25:45
  so female, 40% male, and 20% of either gender.
• 25:49
  So sometimes it might be more one way or than the other,
• 25:52
  but there's an ambition that we have
• 25:54
  that throughout our whole organisation.
• 25:56
  Yes, which is, I say, you need gender.
• 25:58
  Yeah, totally.
• 25:59
  Oh, no, sorry, I was trying to call you up.
• 26:01
  That's the meaning.
• 26:02
  So that now where I feel like it's really been,
• 26:06
  I think a lot of people who maybe turned a blind eye
• 26:09
  to that whole section of society for a long time,
• 26:12
  I remember when Caitlyn Jenner came out on television
• 26:15
  at saying that she's transitioned
• 26:17
  to being a female and identifying as a woman,
• 26:20
  and it's so terrible to think about now,
• 26:23
  but it wasn't a joke, but people just didn't get it.
• 26:25
  It wasn't seen in media,
• 26:27
  and so I think now it's just so amazing to have people
• 26:30
  in these roles, like yourself,
• 26:32
  who are so aware of all people,
• 26:34
  and you want all people to have an opportunity to work
• 26:37
  in a job that they're going to be greater,
• 26:39
  and then therefore the business is going to benefit from.
• 26:41
  So it's just like, yeah, it's so cool to hear.
• 26:44
  And do you think, I guess,
• 26:46
  another thing that we have is an anonymous parental leave,
• 26:49
  spreadsheet?
• 26:50
  Yes.
• 26:51
  Holy and old.
• 26:52
  Holy and old.
• 26:53
  All the spreadsheets.
• 26:54
  No, but we did this because, you know,
• 26:57
  one of the key reasons that women aren't enough women
• 27:01
  in simulation roles is because of the lack of support,
• 27:05
  you know, when they go and have children.
• 27:06
  And you said before that you've got children.
• 27:08
  So I'm really interested to hear your journey through,
• 27:11
  you know, being progressing through your career,
• 27:14
  while also trying to juggle being a mother as well,
• 27:16
  and what kind of policies are in place that's back,
• 27:18
  or what do you think the support that is needed
• 27:22
  for females to progress?
• 27:25
  So maybe I start with my own personal experience,
• 27:27
  well, I wasn't it's back then, but I was at Lyon.
• 27:30
  So I had my first child back in 2004, Sam.
• 27:36
  And I had, I had, I think, 12 weeks full pay,
• 27:42
  as if I was sitting at my desk on maternity leave,
• 27:45
  and then obviously you could have that extended leave
• 27:48
  out through to a year, but obviously not on full pay.
• 27:51
  But that made a huge difference to,
• 27:54
  and then this was before the days of sort of government
• 27:56
  contributing to anything and to do with maternity leave.
• 27:59
  But it made a huge difference to kind of how we set ourselves up.
• 28:02
  And actually my husband stopped working when Sam was,
• 28:05
  when I went back at say six months,
• 28:08
  and he stopped working then and helped support,
• 28:11
  because our children were born very close together.
• 28:13
  There's only 16 months between them.
• 28:15
  Oh, that would be fun.
• 28:17
  Yes.
• 28:18
  So their reality is, but what Lyon also did was
• 28:22
  promoted me into a role while I was on maternity leave,
• 28:25
  held the role open for six months,
• 28:27
  and then moved me into a role so I could simulate back in
• 28:30
  for a few months, and then move into that.
• 28:32
  And that role that I moved into as a
• 28:34
  commercial director in Australian bear business
• 28:36
  really probably gave me a lot of the experience
• 28:39
  and I talk about experiences you need when you move into it.
• 28:42
  Provided that opportunity, so it was really influential
• 28:45
  about when it happened, how it happened,
• 28:48
  in terms of, and so I think,
• 28:50
  when you think that's almost 20 years ago now,
• 28:52
  that's kind of amazing.
• 28:54
  It's amazing.
• 28:55
  I also think it was a garnet, what do you have a job with?
• 28:57
  No, yes, I think I'm pretty serious.
• 28:59
  I mean, I do recognise, like,
• 29:02
  what I had the support I had, and I had great family support.
• 29:05
  When I talked about early,
• 29:06
  everybody needs people around them,
• 29:08
  whatever the model is, whether that's, you know,
• 29:11
  Nanny's part of your support model, extended family,
• 29:13
  other things, nobody can do it by themselves.
• 29:15
  So how do you actually find that?
• 29:17
  And then if I think about SPART,
• 29:19
  we just reviewed our parental leave policy,
• 29:22
  and what we've done is extend that
• 29:24
  to 100% of our base pay at the 26 weeks,
• 29:27
  you know, on top of the, with the government.
• 29:29
  Sorry, can you explain that again?
• 29:31
  I'm a...
• 29:32
  So basically, you get 26 weeks at 100-100% of your base pay,
• 29:36
  and then your second, so if you're the secondary
• 29:39
  carer, get four weeks leave as well.
• 29:42
  How cool, so they can stay at home for a whole month
• 29:44
  with the primary care.
• 29:45
  Yeah, help support, yeah.
• 29:46
  And then secondly, we also looked at how...
• 29:49
  Because, sorry, the current government...
• 29:51
  ...contribution for maternity or parental leave
• 29:55
  is 26 weeks, but not at your full pay.
• 29:58
  A full decision amount, whereas we will make it up to 100% of that base.
• 30:01
  Or so you make the difference from the...
• 30:03
  Yes, yes.
• 30:04
  Okay, got it.
• 30:05
  And the second thing we do is when you come back to work
• 30:09
  for the first three months, your work,
• 30:11
  80% of your hours, for 100% of your pay,
• 30:14
  so that you can get to come back into work.
• 30:17
  So whatever you decide that is, if you were full time,
• 30:19
  and then you wanted to go to part time,
• 30:20
  obviously that'd be prerarded.
• 30:22
  But the reality is what it's recognising is that transition back
• 30:25
  is, you know, can be challenging and can...
• 30:28
  and everyone in the family needs to be able to manage that well.
• 30:31
  So it's trying to allow not only financially for people to be secure,
• 30:34
  we also contribute to Kiwi Saver,
• 30:37
  for the whole time you're on your maternity leave as well.
• 30:40
  Oh, that's a nice full offer chair with that.
• 30:42
  Yes, it's a big thing.
• 30:44
  And then we also help support to intensive
• 30:47
  from a coaching point of view when you're coming back in.
• 30:49
  So we've just done great jobs available.
• 30:52
  Come and speak to me after I say that.
• 30:55
  No, no, it's just a great talent.
• 30:58
  Oh, I see.
• 31:00
  No, we'll do 27 weeks full pay.
• 31:03
  I don't know if I'm a boyfriend or wife.
• 31:05
  So one of the things about supporting women in leadership
• 31:08
  is also around how well you support their partners as well.
• 31:11
  Yes.
• 31:12
  So that's also why it's important that it's a parental leave policy
• 31:15
  and a maternity leave.
• 31:16
  Yeah, and trying to encourage,
• 31:18
  mean to take, if they can,
• 31:21
  and that's an opportunity for them,
• 31:23
  and that's something they want to do,
• 31:24
  then it's trying to support that as well.
• 31:26
  We actually had a really interesting statistic
• 31:28
  that it takes 10 years on average
• 31:31
  for a female to get back to her previous earning capacity
• 31:34
  once she has children,
• 31:36
  which is kind of deemed the motherhood penalty,
• 31:39
  which, for me, I'm just like,
• 31:41
  that's absolutely mind-boggling.
• 31:43
  Considering, you know, females are the only gender
• 31:47
  that can have children.
• 31:48
  You know, it's not like we have a choice here,
• 31:50
  and so it's, yeah, I'm just kind of...
• 31:52
  I think there's not much, much more support out there for...
• 31:55
  Yeah.
• 31:56
  So I think there's that initial financial support,
• 31:58
  but then there's also what's the opportunities?
• 32:00
  No, go that example of being promoted on to a role,
• 32:03
  while I was on maternity leave.
• 32:05
  That sends, you know, a really clear signal
• 32:08
  about what people think about your talent,
• 32:10
  and realise that it's for a period of time
• 32:12
  that you may not be in the business,
• 32:14
  and then you're coming back,
• 32:15
  and how do they help you talents,
• 32:17
  sort of, longer-term, isn't it?
• 32:18
  It's not about a short-term part.
• 32:20
  So it's also thinking about how we manage work
• 32:23
  for people to give them that balance
• 32:26
  and still have really interesting roles.
• 32:28
  It's so hard, though, to think, I mean,
• 32:30
  gosh, I mean, it's just that can I currently?
• 32:32
  But it's, I also understand this might be controversial,
• 32:36
  but I understand how hard it would be for a business, too,
• 32:39
  to have, you know, someone incredible
• 32:41
  that you really desperately want to have in a particular role,
• 32:44
  and then they have a year off,
• 32:45
  and then they come back for three months,
• 32:47
  and then they have a year off.
• 32:48
  Like, it would be really hard to balance what is fair,
• 32:51
  and also what a business needs.
• 32:53
  And hard financially for smaller businesses,
• 32:55
  versus larger businesses.
• 32:56
  So it's kind of, yeah.
• 32:58
  But I think that's around having good conversations
• 33:01
  around with your leader, or whomever is running your business,
• 33:05
  and has that relationship with you around.
• 33:07
  What, and you don't always know, too,
• 33:09
  when you first go on to the how long you want to be away,
• 33:12
  or different components of that.
• 33:14
  So it is a little bit about finding your way there,
• 33:16
  but I think the only thing you can really do
• 33:17
  is have some honest conversations about what you're looking for.
• 33:19
  What does the business need?
• 33:21
  Because you're right, and a small business that's very hard
• 33:23
  to have a period out.
• 33:24
  So how we manage that is look at,
• 33:26
  whether we second someone into the role,
• 33:28
  for the period of time,
• 33:29
  so you give someone else a learning experience
• 33:31
  while that person's away.
• 33:32
  That may be one way of doing it.
• 33:34
  But there is also sort of temporary, you know,
• 33:36
  with its contract and that,
• 33:37
  but that does require give and take on both sides.
• 33:40
  So I think it's trying to find that in that medium.
• 33:43
  So when I go on paternity leave,
• 33:45
  you can be paternity.
• 33:46
  paternity.
• 33:47
  Are you transitioning?
• 33:49
  Pairing totally.
• 33:50
  When I go on paternity leave,
• 33:52
  no, you can be secondited to here to finance.
• 33:54
  Oh, God, no.
• 33:56
  I'd rather resign.
• 33:58
  Absolutely will not be happening.
• 34:00
  Oh, God.
• 34:02
  I would love to ask one final question
• 34:04
  because I realise all of us are sweating.
• 34:06
  This is a very hot studio.
• 34:08
  But I would just love to ask,
• 34:10
  I think this is a very rare opportunity for people listening
• 34:12
  and also for us to hear just any kind of,
• 34:15
  I mean, you've already even so many words of wisdom.
• 34:17
  But if you were talking to, you know,
• 34:20
  a young woman wanting to find themselves in a place like you are,
• 34:24
  do you have any just like,
• 34:26
  it could be super cheesy, it could be real generic?
• 34:28
  I just think it would be really valued.
• 34:30
  If I was talking to my younger self,
• 34:32
  I think believing yourself more,
• 34:36
  we talked about the things,
• 34:38
  we can always focus on what we're not,
• 34:40
  but actually believe,
• 34:42
  I talked about owning,
• 34:44
  you've got to own what you want to achieve and be confident in that.
• 34:46
  We're not always going to get everything right,
• 34:48
  and take some, do take risk.
• 34:51
  Think about where you,
• 34:53
  I think about going to the edge of the precipice
• 34:55
  and looking across and thinking about,
• 34:57
  because at your best,
• 34:58
  not where you're completely out of your comfort zone,
• 35:00
  but where you have a level of stretch
• 35:02
  and what you need to do.
• 35:04
  And make sure you have fun on the way through.
• 35:07
  There will be the biggest thing I would say is,
• 35:10
  life lot happens in life.
• 35:12
  What does it live to work, don't work to live?
• 35:14
  Don't run, don't run.
• 35:17
  So now the things, probably,
• 35:19
  that on my mind, and I look,
• 35:22
  and I do look at the generations that are coming through now,
• 35:24
  and I think I've got a 17-year-old daughter,
• 35:26
  as well as my son,
• 35:27
  and I just think I really want them
• 35:29
  to have the opportunities,
• 35:31
  and not to have to be a conversation like we're having here today.
• 35:34
  But until we are not having those conversations,
• 35:36
  then we have a role to play in leading,
• 35:39
  and certainly I take that seriously,
• 35:41
  as one of the few women in CEO roles in this country.
• 35:45
  I think one of the biggest things I've taken away
• 35:47
  from this conversation actually
• 35:48
  is the importance of helping people,
• 35:50
  like giving them a leg up, giving them a hand up.
• 35:53
  Wherever you can, extending what even knowledge
• 35:56
  or help you can to those
• 35:57
  who are striving for something similar to you.
• 35:59
  And because you never forget that as well.
• 36:01
  If you've been helped or pushed a little bit
• 36:04
  or you're forever thankful
• 36:06
  and you have such quite a special relationship.
• 36:08
  And you tend to deliver way more than was ever asked.
• 36:11
  I don't want to let them down.
• 36:13
  Yeah, because you recognise that someone's gone out of their way
• 36:15
  to actually back you.
• 36:17
  And that's really important.
• 36:19
  Everyone needs to feel like
• 36:20
  they've got someone who's in their corner.
• 36:22
  Yeah.
• 36:23
  I feel really inspired.
• 36:24
  Thank you so much for having me here.
• 36:26
  Thank you.
• 36:27
  I hope you feel like you've had your sauna session for the day.
• 36:30
  And I'm really excited to see
• 36:32
  what you continue to do with this.
• 36:34
  Thank you.
• 36:35
  Thank you.
• 36:36
  Thank you.
• 36:37
  Thank you so much for joining us
• 36:38
  for today's episode of Raising the Curve.
• 36:41
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• 36:43
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• 36:45
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• 36:47
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• 36:49
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• 36:51
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• 36:52
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• 36:54
  or find us on socials
• 36:56
  at the underscore curve nz.