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NANCY GUTHRIE: Fmr FBI Agent on Why This Was "Personal" & The DNA Evidence · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:00
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie has been gone for more than two weeks
0:02
Speaker 1: now and the family has been cleared. Did you hear
0:06
Speaker 1: many also believe the ransom demands are faked? So what
0:08
Speaker 1: do you do now? Jennifer Coffin, Daver former FBI, returns
0:12
Speaker 1: to the program and she says she doesn't think it
0:14
Speaker 1: was random. She thinks it could be a personal grudge
0:17
Speaker 1: carried out by somebody who knew exactly who Nancy Guthrie is.
0:20
Speaker 1: We could be looking for a wolf in sheep's clothing.
0:23
Speaker 1: You need this information. You at least gave me the
0:25
Speaker 1: impression that you thought somebody close has something to do
0:29
Speaker 1: with this. But now the family is out, do you
0:31
Speaker 1: still feel like there might be somebody in a circle,
0:33
Speaker 1: in her owner circle?
0:35
Speaker 2: I still do. I think it's going to be somebody close.
0:38
Speaker 2: Never knew who, but it's going to be somebody close,
0:41
Speaker 2: because look at how they acted. They're too familiar, They
0:44
Speaker 2: were too comfortable on that stoop. They picked her out
0:47
Speaker 2: of everybody. Look at they pulled brush. Who does that
0:51
Speaker 2: and puts that up over the door. Just too many
0:54
Speaker 2: clues that they're comfortable there are newer.
0:57
Speaker 1: But you know what's interesting to me is your take,
1:00
Speaker 1: I agree with I've seen other people who have said
1:03
Speaker 1: he doesn't look familiar with it. I think he is.
1:05
Speaker 1: He might have been a little surprised by the camera,
1:07
Speaker 1: although he's looking to the left when he walks up
1:09
Speaker 1: to it, almost knowing that it's there. That he tries
1:10
Speaker 1: to cover with the glove and as you said, turns around,
1:13
Speaker 1: shows his gait and stride, shows his height for some reason,
1:16
Speaker 1: like a dufist, and then grabs some brush and tries
1:19
Speaker 1: to cover up the camera. So you feel confident that
1:21
Speaker 1: he did know the house.
1:23
Speaker 2: I think he did. I just felt like he'd be
1:25
Speaker 2: lined there. He does try the door, which is kind
1:29
Speaker 2: of interesting to me, maybe thinking it would be unlocked.
1:32
Speaker 2: It doesn't look like he used any forced entry at all,
1:36
Speaker 2: at least or we see unless from behind somebody else
1:40
Speaker 2: was with him. But the bottom line is, I think
1:42
Speaker 2: this is somebody familiar that area is. So it's like
1:46
Speaker 2: a honeycomb, you know how it weaves through there. You
1:50
Speaker 2: have to know where you're going to get to where
1:52
Speaker 2: he was well, I.
1:53
Speaker 1: Think we talked about this last time. By the way,
1:55
Speaker 1: her podcast is called break the Case. Go and check
1:58
Speaker 1: that out. It is it is Jennifer copp Endeavor. The
2:00
Speaker 1: last time we spoke, we talked about this. They released
2:02
Speaker 1: the crime scene way too soon. Then they tried to
2:05
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess secure it again after people
2:08
Speaker 1: have gone to the bathroom in there, they've done everything else.
2:10
Speaker 1: And then a couple of days later, Jennifer, maybe I'm stupid,
2:13
Speaker 1: there's a chance they allow the pool company to show
2:15
Speaker 1: up and start doing some work. What am I looking
2:17
Speaker 1: at here? Would you have allowed the pool company in?
2:20
Speaker 2: No? First of all, they did four searches, by the way,
2:23
Speaker 2: four official searches. The first search you just spoke of,
2:26
Speaker 2: that was the locals. Then the bureau came in and
2:28
Speaker 2: did a search. Then the bureau came in and did
2:30
Speaker 2: a second search, retrieved the camera, retrieved the car. Then
2:33
Speaker 2: they did a fourth search and looked in the septic
2:36
Speaker 2: so that should have been sealed up. That's what I believe.
2:40
Speaker 1: Without a doubt. I mean, it's just confusing to me
2:42
Speaker 1: how lackluster this sheriff appeared to be early on. I've
2:46
Speaker 1: been watching what he's been saying. He says things off
2:49
Speaker 1: the cuff that don't make any sense. Then he has
2:50
Speaker 1: to apologize about it later, and then allegedly he's not
2:53
Speaker 1: sharing information with the FBI. How does it work mechanically? Okay,
2:56
Speaker 1: you've got a case, high profile case, we haven't seen
2:59
Speaker 1: one like this in a long time. But does the
3:02
Speaker 1: FBI have to literally call the sheriffans they would like
3:04
Speaker 1: to help you. That's what it sounds like they had
3:06
Speaker 1: to do that. Shouldn't he have called them early on?
3:08
Speaker 2: Well, he should have, and I think the minute he
3:10
Speaker 2: knew that there were ransom notes involved, although again I
3:13
Speaker 2: think those are completely bogus, he did get the Bureau
3:16
Speaker 2: heavily involved. There's one hundred agents on the steal Joe Peck.
3:20
Speaker 2: So how it's looking behind the scenes is the sheriff
3:23
Speaker 2: has the authority, the FBI has the resources and the expertise,
3:27
Speaker 2: and those have to come together. They have to plan
3:29
Speaker 2: the sand books.
3:30
Speaker 1: And you're saying the whole ransom stuff is bogus.
3:33
Speaker 2: That's my opinion. Yep. They money done it to get money.
3:38
Speaker 2: They didn't. They didn't do anything to get their money.
3:40
Speaker 2: They didn't show the goods.
3:42
Speaker 1: Exactly why they didn't show. They didn't show any sign
3:44
Speaker 1: of life whatsoever, which told me almost immediately there's no
3:47
Speaker 1: way this is about ransom, So any connection to cartels,
3:50
Speaker 1: you would you would take that out of the equation too.
3:53
Speaker 2: Absolutely, cartels care about money and this was no cartel
3:56
Speaker 2: hit that guy.
3:59
Speaker 1: Car Let me let me ask you this. When you
4:02
Speaker 1: saw that they went to Rico Rio or Rio Rico,
4:05
Speaker 1: which is about twelve miles north of the border, what
4:07
Speaker 1: do you think that was all about. Do you think
4:08
Speaker 1: that delivery driver because he started talking to the media
4:10
Speaker 1: almost immediately once they released him. They detained him for
4:12
Speaker 1: a night or for a few hours, and he started
4:15
Speaker 1: talking to the media. Do you think he was a
4:16
Speaker 1: guy whose cell phone pinged in the gu three you know,
4:19
Speaker 1: neighborhood and he was delivering packages and they said, well,
4:22
Speaker 1: you better go follow up on this. I mean, does
4:24
Speaker 1: the FBI have the technology to find out everybody who
4:26
Speaker 1: is anywhere near that area that day?
4:29
Speaker 2: They do, there's geo fencing they can use. And then
4:32
Speaker 2: I think that in conjunction with how he looked, I
4:34
Speaker 2: think there was a similarity, and I think somebody called
4:36
Speaker 2: in a tip, looked all of this is happening because
4:39
Speaker 2: of the tips that have been generated from that stupe video.
4:43
Speaker 1: I mean, and that stup video tells a lot. How
4:45
Speaker 1: do you think they retrieved that, because it sounds like
4:47
Speaker 1: it was just x's and o's and binary and they
4:49
Speaker 1: had to take it to a lab somewhere in the
4:51
Speaker 1: FBI and piece it back together because they didn't just
4:53
Speaker 1: get a video. They had to put it together, didn't
4:54
Speaker 1: they They did.
4:56
Speaker 2: That was all back behind the scenes because essentially she
5:00
Speaker 2: didn't have that subscription, so it didn't save to a cloud.
5:03
Speaker 2: So they had to pull it from the inner workings
5:05
Speaker 2: of everything that Nast had in combination with what the
5:09
Speaker 2: FBI had in terms of tools. It was extraordinary, extraordinary
5:13
Speaker 2: they got that video.
5:14
Speaker 1: It is Jennifer Kafandever, a retired FBI special agent. Go
5:17
Speaker 1: check out Break the Case podcast on YouTube. Also on
5:20
Speaker 1: ex coffin DAF for FDI go FBI should say, go
5:23
Speaker 1: and follow her there as well. As we're watching this unfold,
5:26
Speaker 1: My wife has asked me the same question every single
5:28
Speaker 1: day since it happened. Why haven't they found her yet?
5:31
Speaker 1: Why haven't haven't we gotten a break in this case yet?
5:34
Speaker 1: And I'm wither I get that. I mean, when I
5:36
Speaker 1: was growing up, and I talked about this on my show,
5:37
Speaker 1: on my show just the other night, I used to
5:39
Speaker 1: think to myself. If I lost a quarter, somebody in
5:41
Speaker 1: the government can go and find it. If I couldn't
5:43
Speaker 1: find it, there's a they there that can go and
5:46
Speaker 1: solve these cases and get this done. And we're feeling
5:49
Speaker 1: a little bit frustrated now as I know that you
5:50
Speaker 1: are as well over two weeks in. Why don't we
5:53
Speaker 1: know what happened yet?
5:55
Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of new breaks that I think
5:58
Speaker 2: are promising. And one is a glove that is found
6:00
Speaker 2: a little over two miles away on the side of
6:02
Speaker 2: the road that law enforcement is saying actually matches the
6:06
Speaker 2: glove that's in the picture that the perpetrator. So that's
6:10
Speaker 2: good news. Also, and this is the huge news, there's
6:13
Speaker 2: DNA within that glove or on the outside. But there's
6:16
Speaker 2: DNA in that glove. It's already sent to the FBI.
6:19
Speaker 2: This happened yesterday. We're waiting to hear back whether there's
6:22
Speaker 2: a CODIS match.
6:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, as we're watching this unfold, and that's huge news.
6:28
Speaker 1: Does this show that this guy was a rank amateur.
6:30
Speaker 1: And here's why I say that. He walks up with
6:32
Speaker 1: the backpack and he's just fumbling around a little bit.
6:35
Speaker 1: As you said, I agree with you. It looks like
6:36
Speaker 1: he's familiar with the area, but instead of just punching
6:38
Speaker 1: the camera or taking it down, tries to cover it
6:41
Speaker 1: with a little bit of leaves and brush and foliage.
6:44
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. And then if you're getting away,
6:47
Speaker 1: let's say this glove is his, why'd you throw out
6:50
Speaker 1: on the side of the road, go to the nearest
6:51
Speaker 1: garbage at a McDonald's and throw it away? What It
6:54
Speaker 1: just sounds like this guy was he panicking, didn't know
6:56
Speaker 1: what he was doing. Why would you throw a glove
6:58
Speaker 1: with your DNA in it on the side of the
7:00
Speaker 1: road two miles away?
7:02
Speaker 2: Typically it is panic. I've seen guns, masks, anything that
7:06
Speaker 2: was used in a crime. People want to get rid
7:08
Speaker 2: of that are amateurs, and they just toss it out
7:10
Speaker 2: the window, thinking nobody will find it. So I think
7:13
Speaker 2: that what could have happened here. I'm optimistic, but cautiously
7:17
Speaker 2: so somebody could have thrown that, somebody could have planted it,
7:20
Speaker 2: But nevertheless I'm optimistic.
7:23
Speaker 1: Yesterday I heard some reports that it looks like they
7:25
Speaker 1: have a match for the DNA, but they're not sure yet.
7:27
Speaker 1: What have you heard on that is there a match
7:29
Speaker 1: to the DNA inside the glove.
7:31
Speaker 2: There's no match inside the glove, but there's DNA inside
7:35
Speaker 2: the glove. And that's why they're going to run it
7:37
Speaker 2: through cotis to see if anybody of the twenty six
7:39
Speaker 2: plus million profiles in their matchup. In other words, was
7:42
Speaker 2: this guy's first rodeo or was he ever arrested or
7:46
Speaker 2: convicted of some petty crime crime?
7:48
Speaker 1: What do you think? What is your general sense about
7:50
Speaker 1: who this guy was before he did this?
7:52
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think this guy just woke up one
7:55
Speaker 2: day and said, I think I'm going to go kidnap
7:57
Speaker 2: this person. This is a crime. Ultimately, I think of
8:00
Speaker 2: retribution and revenge, perhaps at least in their own mind,
8:06
Speaker 2: something very personal. You have to look what would the
8:09
Speaker 2: person gain by having Nancy Guthrie gone. It always comes
8:13
Speaker 2: down to either money or hatred and revenge, and I'm
8:18
Speaker 2: worried that now we're working on that premise.
8:22
Speaker 1: So I know that you're not working this specific case,
8:24
Speaker 1: but if you were and you wanted to find out
8:27
Speaker 1: a motive. Is motive important right now as you try
8:29
Speaker 1: to find the guy? Or is that not important?
8:31
Speaker 2: I always want to know motive when you have motive
8:34
Speaker 2: that leads to who it is you get rid of
8:36
Speaker 2: so many other people, so motive is critical.
8:38
Speaker 1: So your feeling is that it's something personal, possibly some
8:42
Speaker 1: sort of indebta. What does that look like? So this
8:45
Speaker 1: guy was some because again we don't know who he is.
8:48
Speaker 1: But this could be somebody who did work around the house.
8:51
Speaker 1: There could be somebody who had a running with her
8:53
Speaker 1: somewhere in the city. We don't really know you know
8:55
Speaker 1: who the person is. But when you say there's a
8:57
Speaker 1: personal something there, how does that how does that manifest?
9:01
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
9:02
Speaker 2: Well, it can start with something small, somebody feeling like
9:06
Speaker 2: you didn't respect them, you didn't treat them right, and
9:08
Speaker 2: that foils for in them. It can be something that small, Joe,
9:13
Speaker 2: can you imagine?
9:13
Speaker 1: So, I mean this could be this could be disconnected
9:16
Speaker 1: completely from this being Savannah Guthrie's mother.
9:20
Speaker 2: No, I think it's Do you think that is connected? Yes? Yes,
9:25
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, But I meant
9:27
Speaker 2: boiling over with something that Nancy Guthrie said did otherwise
9:31
Speaker 2: was interpreted by this person, right.
9:33
Speaker 1: So, but the fact that she Savannah's mother also plays
9:36
Speaker 1: into this.
9:37
Speaker 2: I see what you're saying. I think it could look
9:40
Speaker 2: is his revenge at Nancy, or is revenge and retribution
9:44
Speaker 2: and anger towards Savannah. They can't rule that out right now.
9:48
Speaker 2: That's why the motive is so critical.
9:50
Speaker 1: It really is. As Jennifer Coffin Daffer go to Break
9:52
Speaker 1: the Case over on YouTube, break the Case all one word,
9:55
Speaker 1: great great YouTube podcast and go follow her Coffin daf
9:57
Speaker 1: for FBI over on a as well. Nancy and her
10:02
Speaker 1: and her brother and sister, and now not Nancy, Savannah
10:05
Speaker 1: and her brother and sister have been doing these videos
10:07
Speaker 1: Savannah by herself most recently. The early ones were We're
10:10
Speaker 1: gonna do what you want, bring her back, We want
10:12
Speaker 1: her back. The next one we got your message, bring
10:15
Speaker 1: her back, talk to her. You know she she's she's
10:18
Speaker 1: our whole world, she's our light. Please bring her buck.
10:21
Speaker 1: And then it started to look a little bit angry,
10:23
Speaker 1: like like what are we doing? Like the brother looked
10:24
Speaker 1: like he wanted to And I don't blame him, man,
10:26
Speaker 1: trust me, I'd like to have five minutes in the
10:28
Speaker 1: room with this guy too, So I get it. And
10:30
Speaker 1: then and then Savannah starts coming on by herself, almost
10:34
Speaker 1: looking desperate, and certainly starting to look desperate in fact,
10:37
Speaker 1: At the end of the of the second of the
10:38
Speaker 1: last video, she says, this is a point of desperation.
10:41
Speaker 1: What do you what are you taking from these videos?
10:43
Speaker 1: Are they all coached? If you were if you were
10:45
Speaker 1: working this case, would you be telling Savannah do this,
10:48
Speaker 1: don't do this. I wouldn't do it again. Maybe do
10:50
Speaker 1: two today? I mean, how would you be working that
10:52
Speaker 1: angle of it?
10:53
Speaker 2: One hundred percent? I would be doing that. There's no
10:56
Speaker 2: way that somebody in her situation, all emotional, in the
10:59
Speaker 2: middle of this, should be making any decisions. That's like
11:02
Speaker 2: a doctor treating themselves. She's going to be looking at
11:05
Speaker 2: the experts from the behavioral analysis unit that deal with
11:08
Speaker 2: these types of things for decades, and they're going to
11:12
Speaker 2: manifest exactly how she should say. What she should say
11:16
Speaker 2: that has worked in the past for getting people to
11:18
Speaker 2: admit or come forward with something.
11:21
Speaker 1: Is it important that she keeps saying this is our mother,
11:23
Speaker 1: this is our life. She's a peaceful person, we love
11:25
Speaker 1: her so much. Is that a way to personalize Nancy
11:29
Speaker 1: as maybe this person, this person certainly has a mother
11:32
Speaker 1: or he did at one point, who kidnapped her? Is
11:34
Speaker 1: that Are you working on the emotions through that.
11:37
Speaker 2: Yes, establishing some sort of empathy. Again, if more than
11:40
Speaker 2: one person is involved, maybe the main person that perpetrated
11:44
Speaker 2: this wouldn't have that empathy, but maybe somebody else that
11:47
Speaker 2: knows about it, or knows this person, maybe it would
11:50
Speaker 2: incite empathy with them.
11:52
Speaker 1: What is this whole sixteen gloves were now recovered? What
11:55
Speaker 1: the heck is that? Are you telling me that researchers
11:57
Speaker 1: and investigators are leaving their gloves out in the crime
12:00
Speaker 1: scene area somewhere? What is this?
12:02
Speaker 2: Well, there are some photos of people shoving their gloves
12:07
Speaker 2: in the back of their pants, right in their pockets,
12:10
Speaker 2: and I think some could possibly fall. They talk about
12:13
Speaker 2: homeless people that maybe lived out there. This is a
12:16
Speaker 2: ten mile radius type area where these gloves. Sixteen's an
12:20
Speaker 2: awful lot though, I mean, isn't it warm in Arizona.
12:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think so. I mean, it's a lot
12:25
Speaker 1: of gloves, for sure. But they're confident that this glove
12:28
Speaker 1: looks a lot like the one that the guy had
12:29
Speaker 1: on and this DNA could in fact be his. So
12:32
Speaker 1: what's the next step now the lab? Well, first of all,
12:35
Speaker 1: let me go back to the DNA being sent from
12:37
Speaker 1: the scene to Florida. I mean that was another gaff.
12:39
Speaker 1: I would assume that you agree with me by this
12:41
Speaker 1: guy Nanos instead of using the FBI lab at Quantico,
12:44
Speaker 1: which is the best lab on the planet for God's sakes.
12:47
Speaker 1: So does the FBI now get the DNA back from
12:50
Speaker 1: the lab in Florida? Do they wait for the results
12:51
Speaker 1: from Florida? Do we have those results in and then
12:54
Speaker 1: do you try to match that to the DNA inside
12:56
Speaker 1: the glove?
12:57
Speaker 2: Well a couple of things. Joe, I actually did agree
13:00
Speaker 2: with the decision to go back to Florida, and this
13:02
Speaker 2: is why they had done so much work at establishing
13:06
Speaker 2: profiles of the individuals. If they send it to Quantico,
13:09
Speaker 2: they have to start from step one establishing with all
13:12
Speaker 2: those profiles. So I think it was the right call.
13:14
Speaker 2: So after it left Florida and they said listen, we
13:17
Speaker 2: have mail DNA here, then it gets sent off to
13:19
Speaker 2: Quantico strictly to compare with CODIS, and I agree that
13:24
Speaker 2: Quantico is the best and they are going to double
13:26
Speaker 2: check the results to make sure the profile markers are correct.
13:30
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have the inswer to this, Jennifer,
13:32
Speaker 1: And again Jennifer Coffin dowver Go follow her break the
13:34
Speaker 1: case is the podcast? What would indicate DNA? Could it
13:38
Speaker 1: be a piece of hair that was mail? Was there
13:40
Speaker 1: something else going on? I don't want to make an
13:42
Speaker 1: assumption about a sexual assault or something, but why would
13:44
Speaker 1: you have DNA from somebody other than Nancy Guffrey inside
13:47
Speaker 1: that house that night?
13:49
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. Remember too, there's a long
13:52
Speaker 2: time frame this perpetrator was likely in that house, you know,
13:56
Speaker 2: over they say up to forty one minutes. I don't
13:58
Speaker 2: think they're accounting for in but just say even thirty minutes.
14:02
Speaker 2: It's an eternity. So what could have gone in there?
14:05
Speaker 2: I hate to think about, but knowing from my business,
14:09
Speaker 2: you know, the worst of the worst could have happened
14:11
Speaker 2: in there. We don't know what kind of DNA could
14:13
Speaker 2: be here. Could be sweat, could be touched DNA, it
14:16
Speaker 2: could be semen.
14:18
Speaker 1: And the fact that we know that it's mail doesn't
14:20
Speaker 1: exclude the family, although you said the family has now
14:23
Speaker 1: been excluded publicly. Could could that be a ploy or
14:27
Speaker 1: when they say they exclude the family, they mean that
14:29
Speaker 1: nobody in the family did this.
14:31
Speaker 2: They mean that they're not going to come out and
14:32
Speaker 2: say that in backtrack, now, when he came out and
14:35
Speaker 2: said it, I believe it.
14:37
Speaker 1: What about this other thing that happened the other night?
14:38
Speaker 1: And I know that you were probably watching it as well,
14:40
Speaker 1: because when I went to bed on, I don't know,
14:42
Speaker 1: two or three nights ago, they had a range rover
14:44
Speaker 1: on the side of the road that looked all dusty
14:46
Speaker 1: or fogged over. Then they lifted up a piece of
14:50
Speaker 1: tarp or something so the media couldn't see what they
14:52
Speaker 1: were working on. I for a moment feared that Nancy
14:54
Speaker 1: might have been in that car. He had no idea.
14:57
Speaker 1: Then they had three people detained, Jennifer. When you have
14:59
Speaker 1: the kind of activity and then nothing comes of it,
15:03
Speaker 1: does that really mean that nothing came of it? Or
15:05
Speaker 1: maybe something came of it. They just couldn't keep them.
15:07
Speaker 1: They couldn't hold them any longer.
15:09
Speaker 2: Joe Pegs, I agree with you. Look, they only had
15:11
Speaker 2: forty eight hours. They have to make a decision. They
15:13
Speaker 2: didn't have enough to charge, but they had enough to
15:16
Speaker 2: take that vehicle. They had the probable cause to take it.
15:18
Speaker 2: They had crime scene up. They marked that crime scene
15:21
Speaker 2: on the door so they could show when if anything
15:24
Speaker 2: was broken. They marked that as a crime scene, and
15:27
Speaker 2: the fact they put that tarp up. I thought initially
15:29
Speaker 2: they tarped the whole car. I saw it clearly. No,
15:32
Speaker 2: they tarped because they did not want anybody seeing what
15:34
Speaker 2: was in there that they were looking at.
15:36
Speaker 1: What do you think they were looking at? Can you
15:38
Speaker 1: speculate or not?
15:39
Speaker 2: Well? I could say what first came to mind for me?
15:43
Speaker 2: Why I tarp something? I would tarpe it. If I
15:46
Speaker 2: saw copious amounts of blood in there, I would tarp it.
15:50
Speaker 2: That was the first thing that came I'm not guessing.
15:52
Speaker 2: I'm not speculating. I'm telling you from my experience what
15:55
Speaker 2: I would tark for.
15:57
Speaker 1: Well, another, her blood was on the front doorstep, which
15:59
Speaker 1: doesn't make a lot of sense. We're going to be
16:00
Speaker 1: bleeding that much. Many have said, probably from her nose.
16:03
Speaker 1: Can you decipher where that blood was coming from and
16:06
Speaker 1: the way that the droplets at the ground, And do
16:08
Speaker 1: you think it was a bloody nose or something else
16:10
Speaker 1: going on?
16:12
Speaker 2: Well? I think she was carried. I think that because
16:15
Speaker 2: blood thinners and her hands and arms were paper thin.
16:19
Speaker 2: If you look at footage from her on the Today Show,
16:22
Speaker 2: lots of roof it wouldn't take much. But I think
16:25
Speaker 2: it was minor type of bleeding that she had there.
16:29
Speaker 2: I think they dripped in that pattern which go all
16:32
Speaker 2: the way by the way to that edge of the
16:34
Speaker 2: parking lot. Look, they didn't teleport out of there. There
16:37
Speaker 2: was a car there and they took her out, or
16:40
Speaker 2: he took her out, he or they and nobody stepped
16:43
Speaker 2: on those blood droplets. So I truly believe she was
16:46
Speaker 2: being carried and that that's possibly coming from the head area.
16:50
Speaker 2: I also think that backpack that was stuffed full of
16:53
Speaker 2: items full. Nobody goes in to commit a robbery with
16:56
Speaker 2: a full backpack. You go in with an empty backpack
16:59
Speaker 2: and then you feel it up. I think that was
17:01
Speaker 2: to shroud her, to shroud her face, and so I
17:04
Speaker 2: believe that's what was in that backpup.
17:06
Speaker 1: Do you think this guy was alone.
17:09
Speaker 2: I don't. I just had a long discussion with another
17:12
Speaker 2: colleague of mine. I don't. I think somebody went in,
17:16
Speaker 2: possibly from the back, and that's why he checked the
17:18
Speaker 2: door knob because they were going to let him in.
17:20
Speaker 2: I just I have this feeling that it's two people
17:24
Speaker 2: at least, and.
17:26
Speaker 1: Watching the overhead shots of this house, I wouldn't have
17:28
Speaker 1: any idea how to get in how to get out. So,
17:31
Speaker 1: like you say, there was somebody who was there, I mean,
17:33
Speaker 1: do we want to say it could have been a worker,
17:35
Speaker 1: It could have been a delivery driver, it could have
17:37
Speaker 1: been I mean, do we have any idea Okay, the
17:39
Speaker 1: family's out, it could be anybody else. I mean, again,
17:42
Speaker 1: you say there's probably a connection to her somehow, that
17:44
Speaker 1: she was in fact targeted. Can we start making assumptions
17:47
Speaker 1: about who this person might be. Because they had a
17:49
Speaker 1: layout of the of the house. You can find out
17:51
Speaker 1: online where just about anybody lives. But that doesn't mean
17:53
Speaker 1: you know how their house works.
17:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, how their house works, how to get in where
17:58
Speaker 2: that camera would be. And remember we have another camera
18:01
Speaker 2: that's on that roof. I am dying to see what
18:04
Speaker 2: footage they got from there. Did they see that car leave?
18:08
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know. We're working with about ten
18:10
Speaker 2: cards when there's fifty in a deck, But from what
18:14
Speaker 2: we know, I think we're going to have some camera
18:15
Speaker 2: footage from that camera as well.
18:17
Speaker 1: So you think the FBI or the Sheriff's department already
18:20
Speaker 1: has that camera footage they just don't want to show it.
18:22
Speaker 2: Yep, that's what I think I really do And Remember,
18:26
Speaker 2: they're only going to release something that they think the
18:28
Speaker 2: public can help with. So it's good news because if
18:31
Speaker 2: they haven't released it, maybe they were able to decipher
18:35
Speaker 2: it and found what they needed to find.
18:38
Speaker 1: I might be thinking about my cousin Vinnie, and I
18:39
Speaker 1: apologize because I'm not an investigator obviously, but tire tracks
18:43
Speaker 1: entire tread seems to be a big deal now, Like
18:47
Speaker 1: the next day, eighty two thousand cars showed up. So
18:50
Speaker 1: maybe you don't have those tire tracks. But if the
18:52
Speaker 1: car is parked out by the road or in the
18:53
Speaker 1: circular driveway somewhere, we're not really sure where it was
18:55
Speaker 1: part or maybe we do, and they take her out
18:58
Speaker 1: in whatever you know shape he's in, they put her
19:01
Speaker 1: in the car. That car is going to have a
19:02
Speaker 1: unique tire tread, and it might be a tired that
19:04
Speaker 1: a lot of cars used, but that would certainly wouldn't
19:06
Speaker 1: it down? Do you do? You look into things like that?
19:09
Speaker 2: You always do. But the sheriff said, very early on,
19:12
Speaker 2: I want to say day two that there's no tire tracks,
19:16
Speaker 2: no tire tread, and I truly believe it's because everybody
19:19
Speaker 2: rolled up on that scene again didn't protect the crime scene,
19:23
Speaker 2: all these people trudging around, all these vehicles. Anything that
19:26
Speaker 2: might have been there was long gone.
19:29
Speaker 1: I know Sunday morning quarterbacking is not easy, but I mean,
19:31
Speaker 1: you still have a missing person here in the case
19:33
Speaker 1: is still active. What should have been done differently from the beginning,
19:36
Speaker 1: because again, let's just dial it back a little bit.
19:39
Speaker 1: The sheriff's department gets a notification after the family is
19:41
Speaker 1: told she doesn't show up for church. She's gonna either
19:43
Speaker 1: do church through video link like she normally did, or
19:46
Speaker 1: maybe she's going to go there with somebody. And they said,
19:48
Speaker 1: we just didn't see your mother today. And then they say, okay,
19:51
Speaker 1: there's a missing person's can you go and check on
19:53
Speaker 1: on somebody's well being? This is an eighty four year
19:56
Speaker 1: old woman. As a police department and again you were FBI,
19:59
Speaker 1: but as a POLA, as a sheriff's department, should they
20:02
Speaker 1: have been more careful right from the get go? I
20:04
Speaker 1: don't know if they knew that it was Savannah Guthrie's mother,
20:06
Speaker 1: that changes the story. What should have been done differently,
20:09
Speaker 1: like the moment they found out that there was something
20:11
Speaker 1: awry here?
20:12
Speaker 2: Well, And I agree with you, Joe, I always hate
20:14
Speaker 2: to Monday Morning Quarterback because all of us make mistakes,
20:18
Speaker 2: and I hate to do that, but I will say this,
20:22
Speaker 2: If you treat a missing case like a homicide from
20:26
Speaker 2: the beginning, you're in good shape. If you don't, you
20:29
Speaker 2: end up with John vana Ramsey situation. So I really
20:33
Speaker 2: think you just have to treat these missing cases in
20:36
Speaker 2: this way and you can't really mess up as badly anyway.
20:40
Speaker 1: Would that have changed? Because again, there are people who
20:42
Speaker 1: get a hold of me every day now saying that
20:44
Speaker 1: we have missing people all over the place. Why are
20:46
Speaker 1: you paying so much attention to this one? I get it, Well,
20:48
Speaker 1: there's major national and international interest in the story because
20:51
Speaker 1: of who her daughter is. Does it change the game
20:53
Speaker 1: at all? Does it change the plan at all? As
20:55
Speaker 1: an FBI agent or even as a sheriff's deputy, whatever
20:58
Speaker 1: law enforcement, when you find this is the mother of
21:01
Speaker 1: the Today Show host, does that change things immediately?
21:04
Speaker 2: It really does. I got to be honest with you,
21:07
Speaker 2: not from the standpoint that you care more or less,
21:10
Speaker 2: but from the standpoint if you know your case is
21:12
Speaker 2: going to be scrutinized, and when you know, you've got
21:14
Speaker 2: a magnifying glass for hovering over everything, you do, you're
21:19
Speaker 2: going to be even more careful. So it's actually can
21:22
Speaker 2: be helpful to know that it's being scrutinized like that.
21:25
Speaker 1: Well, you watch Savanna's video yesterday. Again, the tone and
21:28
Speaker 1: tenor is changing over time. What did you take from that?
21:31
Speaker 1: And again you thought this was coached.
21:33
Speaker 2: I think it was coached, I really do. I took
21:37
Speaker 2: from that that you're seeing somebody completely depleted, exhausted everything
21:42
Speaker 2: in your power to say. You can see it on
21:44
Speaker 2: her face. Her face looks gaunt, she was holding tears back.
21:47
Speaker 2: People said she wasn't emotional. I totally disagree. It's just
21:50
Speaker 2: a different kind of emotion. But her eyes were welded up.
21:54
Speaker 2: She was told what to say and she tried to deliver. Look,
21:57
Speaker 2: she's a talk show host and she's amazing, but she's
21:59
Speaker 2: not actress. She did the best she could with the message,
22:02
Speaker 2: and I thought she did a great job.
22:04
Speaker 1: I sawry report this morning. I think from from nine
22:07
Speaker 1: to one one some side over on X. I don't
22:09
Speaker 1: give it any credence other than I'm going to tell
22:11
Speaker 1: you what they had to say, and you tell me
22:13
Speaker 1: if you think that there's even a chance they say
22:15
Speaker 1: that soon and maybe today that the authorities will say
22:19
Speaker 1: they think Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Do you get
22:21
Speaker 1: that feeling?
22:24
Speaker 2: Well, look, anything you.
22:26
Speaker 1: Want that, you want that, but.
22:28
Speaker 2: You know, but you know, you work with probabilities, and
22:32
Speaker 2: in this type of a case, particularly because she required medication,
22:38
Speaker 2: they said twenty four hours, it could be a lethal
22:41
Speaker 2: situation without our mets. And obviously she's on a pacemaker
22:45
Speaker 2: and she needs blood dinners for it to function properly.
22:49
Speaker 2: So you know, I think they're trying to instill hope
22:53
Speaker 2: and everyone, but the probability is very low at this point.
22:57
Speaker 1: What do you know about the technology? And again it's
22:59
Speaker 1: Jennifer Coffindeffer, retired special agent from the FBI. Go and
23:01
Speaker 1: follow her break the case over on YouTube and also
23:04
Speaker 1: Coffin deff for FBI over on x What do you
23:06
Speaker 1: know about the technology that was used in a helicopter? First?
23:09
Speaker 1: And I think that might be bringing a drone in
23:10
Speaker 1: to try to sniff out if the pacemaker is somewhere nearby.
23:14
Speaker 2: Right This sniffer sounds so great and so sexy, but
23:17
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's got to be
23:19
Speaker 2: very close range to make out the pacemaker. And that's
23:24
Speaker 2: from research I've done, combined with the sniffer information that
23:28
Speaker 2: we have, it just has to be close. And so
23:31
Speaker 2: I think it's a cool tool. And maybe if you
23:34
Speaker 2: could see something with infrared or see something that you
23:36
Speaker 2: thought might be a body, and you could go down
23:39
Speaker 2: and use that instrumentation close, I think it could be worthwhile.
23:44
Speaker 2: But unfortunately I think up in a helicopter song and work.
23:48
Speaker 1: It is Jennifer Coffindeffer. Why don't they keep searching the
23:50
Speaker 1: neighborhood at Annie's house? For some reason? They keep going
23:54
Speaker 1: back there and searching again. But again today you just
23:56
Speaker 1: broke this on my show. They are eliminating the family.
23:59
Speaker 1: Was that just process of elimination? We want to make
24:02
Speaker 1: sure that you're not a suspect partially.
24:04
Speaker 2: But the other thing is where did this crime really
24:07
Speaker 2: originate from? If you will? She spent the night before
24:11
Speaker 2: playing games, having dinner at Annie's house and then was taken.
24:15
Speaker 2: She followed from there was somebody in that neighborhood and
24:19
Speaker 2: followed her out to that house, you know, so they
24:22
Speaker 2: would know she would be in there when they hit it.
24:25
Speaker 2: I just it makes a lot of sense to me
24:27
Speaker 2: as an investigator to start where the person was last
24:30
Speaker 2: known to be alive.
24:32
Speaker 1: It's all very interesting because again she ubered over there,
24:35
Speaker 1: which doesn't make sense to me, but who knows what
24:36
Speaker 1: the arrangement was. It's only four miles away. You would
24:38
Speaker 1: figure somebody can coming get her, or she would drive
24:40
Speaker 1: there herself. She had her own car. But whatever that is,
24:43
Speaker 1: the sun in law drops her off. But this breaking
24:46
Speaker 1: didn't happen for hours after that, right, I mean if
24:49
Speaker 1: you followed her home, you think somebody might have been
24:51
Speaker 1: lying in wait, just looking for the right opportunity.
24:52
Speaker 2: Opportunity, yeah, I think lying in wait, because there's a
24:56
Speaker 2: lot of factors, right, what are the neighbors doing, not
24:59
Speaker 2: only what is your subject doing? Also when did their
25:02
Speaker 2: lights go out? Everything going on in their house, but
25:04
Speaker 2: also the around you know, the surroundings. When does everything
25:08
Speaker 2: calm down enough that you could saunter up there like
25:11
Speaker 2: this guy did, and he truly sauntered up to that
25:13
Speaker 2: door and go in and retrieve her.
25:15
Speaker 1: It's very interesting. Why you think that this guy was
25:18
Speaker 1: familiar with the house and others have said this guy
25:20
Speaker 1: was absolutely not familiar whatsoever. In fact, he was surprised
25:23
Speaker 1: by the camera. What did you see early on? Because
25:25
Speaker 1: you've been saying this since early on that told you
25:27
Speaker 1: he wasn't unfamiliar.
25:29
Speaker 2: Well, he walks in and I don't know if you
25:32
Speaker 2: have that video, it's four seconds on. He walks in
25:35
Speaker 2: like this, right and he goes straight in. Why do
25:38
Speaker 2: you do that unless you know there's a camera. Now,
25:42
Speaker 2: maybe he you know, look that was his site survey
25:45
Speaker 2: and he knew there was a camera there from his
25:47
Speaker 2: site survey, but he'd be lying there to it. Now,
25:51
Speaker 2: this guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed.
25:53
Speaker 2: For sure. He didn't bring anything to cover it, but
25:55
Speaker 2: he sure as heck knew it was there. He tries
25:57
Speaker 2: to cover it with his hand. He realizes that's not
25:59
Speaker 2: doing the tricks, so goes and pulls brushed. Who does that?
26:02
Speaker 2: Take a rock and smash it? I mean, this is
26:05
Speaker 2: very unusual for the way the manner of how this
26:09
Speaker 2: was conducted.
26:10
Speaker 1: Is there a chance they've already talked to the person
26:12
Speaker 1: who did this? And I'm not blaming anybody specifically, but
26:15
Speaker 1: they've had three people detained the other night, the delivery
26:17
Speaker 1: driver earlier on. And I got to tell you something,
26:19
Speaker 1: and I don't know that it's this guy. I'm not
26:21
Speaker 1: saying that I'm not accusing him of anything, but a
26:23
Speaker 1: delivery driver knows the topography of your neighborhood. They know
26:27
Speaker 1: what gates you do and don't have. They know what
26:29
Speaker 1: your front door looks like. They know if you have
26:30
Speaker 1: a camera or not. They know what the front step
26:32
Speaker 1: looks like. I mean, I would not be surprised if
26:34
Speaker 1: it's somebody who has been in that area. So let
26:37
Speaker 1: me ask you again, and again we're not blaming anybody
26:39
Speaker 1: at this point, but do you think they might have
26:40
Speaker 1: already talked to the guy?
26:42
Speaker 2: I think it's possible. Look, they haven't cleared anyone other
26:46
Speaker 2: than the family now, so it's possible. Look, they had
26:49
Speaker 2: enough probable cause to go into the house in the
26:51
Speaker 2: middle of the night and to seize a car.
26:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, imagine they pulled him over to keep
26:57
Speaker 1: him from going to the house, because then they're going
26:58
Speaker 1: to be serving the search warrant. What is the mother
27:01
Speaker 1: in laws involved in this? It sounds like she's the
27:03
Speaker 1: one who called or said he knows something about it.
27:06
Speaker 1: The reports have been very scattered on what the mother
27:09
Speaker 1: in law was saying and how she was involved. But
27:11
Speaker 1: what really jumped out at me and I wonder what
27:12
Speaker 1: your thoughts are on this. I don't think I talked
27:14
Speaker 1: to you about this last time. If I did, I'll
27:16
Speaker 1: repeat it. If I were a delivery driver and I
27:19
Speaker 1: said this the other day, I truly would know whether
27:22
Speaker 1: I ever delivered to the house. That's big international news
27:25
Speaker 1: right now. And this guy, when he was like sought
27:27
Speaker 1: out the media and started blabbing his face off. He
27:30
Speaker 1: said he didn't know if he delivered to her yet
27:32
Speaker 1: at that point, but he knew that he delivered in Tucson.
27:34
Speaker 1: I just found that to be really weird.
27:37
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you the delivery guy I actually thought
27:39
Speaker 2: was believable. It's the other guy that I'm not sure
27:43
Speaker 2: since they took his car, crime, scened it off, and
27:46
Speaker 2: tarpd it. That is the one I would be more
27:49
Speaker 2: concerned about. And as far as not remembering, I don't
27:52
Speaker 2: know if you saw this, but there was a pizza
27:54
Speaker 2: man who delivered.
27:56
Speaker 1: It for a podcaster ridiculous And they.
27:59
Speaker 2: Said, do you know where you're at? He said no,
28:02
Speaker 2: he knew nothing about the case. He lives there, he
28:05
Speaker 2: works in that area, he delivers pizza, and he was dumbfounded.
28:08
Speaker 2: It's beautiful, It's on tape. It's one of the funniest
28:11
Speaker 2: things I've seen.
28:12
Speaker 1: I saw it. I mean, how does this law enforcement
28:14
Speaker 1: let him like try to walk to the front door,
28:15
Speaker 1: like what are you doing?
28:17
Speaker 2: That's a whole that's another point to be made, for sure.
28:20
Speaker 2: But to me, this guy just when they said, do
28:24
Speaker 2: you know where you're at? No? Not really must have
28:27
Speaker 2: been one of these guys. You know, how about all
28:29
Speaker 2: the dozens of cars turning up and you're at Nancy Guthries.
28:33
Speaker 2: There are so many people though, as you know Joe Pegs,
28:35
Speaker 2: they don't follow the news, they're not Newsy's and they
28:39
Speaker 2: really don't know what's going on. And that's the sad
28:41
Speaker 2: thing because people need to see this video.
28:43
Speaker 1: It's happening right under your nose. Though, if you're in
28:45
Speaker 1: Tucson or just south of Tucson and you work in Tucson,
28:48
Speaker 1: I would forget that you would be aware of what's
28:49
Speaker 1: going on in that area. Jennifer, I always appreciate the
28:52
Speaker 1: time of the access. Let me ask you one last question,
28:54
Speaker 1: because you'll know there's better than anybody. I think. I'm
28:56
Speaker 1: not asking for any inside information other than how much
28:59
Speaker 1: more do you think the FBI knows now that we're
29:02
Speaker 1: not aware of.
29:04
Speaker 2: If I had a percentage ninety percent more. Really, we
29:09
Speaker 2: know almost nothing. We know a mole hill. They know
29:12
Speaker 2: so much more information. And they are family too.
29:18
Speaker 1: Erroln clear of the family, right, Okay, so again they
29:21
Speaker 1: know a ton more. But do they have to go
29:24
Speaker 1: through an analyze and say, we can't release any of this,
29:27
Speaker 1: but we can release this little thing that could help us.
29:29
Speaker 1: Because if they released everything that would help out the person,
29:32
Speaker 1: right right.
29:34
Speaker 2: They're not going to give anything that doesn't help them.
29:37
Speaker 2: They don't care if the public knows anything. What they
29:40
Speaker 2: need the public for is identifying that guy on the step.
29:43
Speaker 2: And I guarantee you, Joe, someone knows who that is.
29:47
Speaker 2: You know, if that were your brother, your son, your father,
29:50
Speaker 2: you would know exactly by how he dresses, the whole
29:53
Speaker 2: Walmart guard, how he turns, that eye that fades in,
29:57
Speaker 2: that skinny little eyebrows that he has, that you know,
30:00
Speaker 2: fluff of hair above his lip. You know who that
30:03
Speaker 2: person is. Somebody needs to come forward and.
30:05
Speaker 1: Any time from and when we're going to get a resolution.
30:07
Speaker 1: Here are we getting close?
30:09
Speaker 2: I think we're closer. I think we're closer. We're not
30:13
Speaker 2: looking at months or years like the sheriff said, we're
30:16
Speaker 2: looking closer than that.
30:17
Speaker 1: It is. Jennifer Coffinde, I always appreciate the time of
30:19
Speaker 1: the access that people love your analysis of this case,
30:22
Speaker 1: and thank you for staying on top of it, and
30:23
Speaker 1: thanks for making time today. Thank you, You're amazing. All Right,
30:27
Speaker 1: that's it for Unshaking and Unafraid with Joe PAGs for
30:29
Speaker 1: this time. Another one to drop very soon. Make sure
30:31
Speaker 1: you subscribe