Latest / Macroaggressions / #671: Get the Flock Outta Here | Jason Bassler

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#671: Get the Flock Outta Here | Jason Bassler · Macroaggressions

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I'm telling you right now. You're gonna love this conversation. I wish we didn't have to have it
5:01
I wish we were talking about something a
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Little bit more fun than the surveillance state creep, but this is the right person to talk to about it
5:09
Please welcome to the show our good friend Jason Bassler
5:13
It's always good to have Jason Bassler from the free thought project back on the show. How are you?
5:18
Good to see you doing well Charlie. Thank you so much, man
5:21
Always a pleasure to be on with you always enjoy our conversations. Yeah
5:24
I mean you guys are you are starting to get a reputation as being the flock camera guy
5:30
the guy who knows quite a bit about it and
5:33
This is become you know, I have I feel differently about this on the one hand
5:41
It's frustrating that we live in a world in which we have flock cameras being installed
5:46
But I'll tell you I've been a bit white-pilled in the sense that
5:50
The response from the general public has been universal
5:54
Discussed towards it. So I guess I feel a little bit better. You've been all over this
5:58
What are what's your overriding feelings about this whole industry and the response of the general public to this?
6:06
I'm loving it man. I'm loving every second of it and
6:10
You know it to touch on your point there and you know, I'm very humble and modest
6:14
I try never to really speak of myself and you know these grandiose ways
6:19
But but I was just at Larkin Rose's conference in Sedona this past weekend
6:23
And I actually had four different people who I respect come up to me and ask me the same exact question like man
6:29
That you've really been the guy who has brought this onto the the flock stuff into the national conversation and or at least one of
6:36
them, you know and
6:38
For people that you know, I really value their opinions. I think they're intelligent smart people
6:43
So the fact that I've had several people including yourself actually put me in this category. I'm honored
6:49
You know, I'm honored. I'm that means I'm doing my job effectively
6:51
It means that my my techniques and my strategies seem to be working
6:56
So I'm all for it man. And you know, it it really is encouraging especially
7:03
You know, we've been doing this for a long time. Charlie
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We've we've basically documented an outline the dumbing down of America to a pretty great extent, you know
7:11
And of course we had some flashes of hope there that the COVID years we saw some significant pushback and stuff like that
7:17
But right now I do feel like this is a very organic
7:21
very grassroots
7:23
Movement and it has some momentum behind it
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And it's not just the Liberty nerds people like us who you know sit in front of the computer and talk about these things
7:32
It's your everyday people. It's the average normie and and honestly, I think it's three fold
7:38
You know, if you don't mind me expanding on this a little bit because I've been thinking about it
7:40
And I do think there is a grassroots movement here
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It's mostly being stirred up and created by the viral online posts
7:49
And it do feel like it is a bit of a continuation from the Overton window shifting away
7:53
from the mainstream opinions from the the corporate talking points and all the real
8:00
distrust of authority in our institutions that really kind of was birth out of the COVID
8:06
debacle and so
8:07
I think that's a big part of it
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I think groups like D flock are also really playing a part because it seems like now more than ever
8:14
We've become a little more organized. We're starting to actually have
8:18
Multiple websites not just one or two, but like multiple websites that are documenting and tracking this stuff. We're also seeing
8:26
groups in real life like I think there was a couple of them that were just outed not too long ago operation flock out
8:32
Which is supposed to be this nationwide movement and then knock the flock in the med in the Midwest that are basically inspiring people to
8:42
Physically take down these cameras now
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I guess we could probably get into that and some of the pros and cons about that idea
8:48
But nonetheless, I mean it does feel like there is very
8:52
There is this viewer very real movement the mainstream touching on it
8:56
The news is all over it whether it be mainstream or your local news
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They seem to have picked up and kind of caught wind of the fact that this is a very viral topic and in second
9:06
I would say that this is the first opportunity
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That we the American people have where we're seeing the representation of a surveillance state
9:17
That has been ushered in by the Trump administration. Let's be that be clear about that
9:21
I mean yes, some of it started under Biden as well
9:23
But now the surveillance state is physically being represented in their streets in their neighborhoods
9:29
And they've basically are understanding that there's these polls that are tracking them tracking the people tracking monitoring
9:38
Logging all their movements and people are upset and frustrated about it
9:41
They are tired of you know, the the ruling class basically exploiting them taking advantage of them
9:48
And now there's this multi-billion dollar company. That's profiting from tracking and monitoring and logging logging their movements, you know
9:55
And so it seems perfect sense and make perfect sense to me
10:00
I know last year there was a lot of anger and frustration and scorn
10:05
Centered on Palantir, but Palantir isn't on every corner in every neighborhood, you know
10:10
So it's like this is one of the first times that we're actually having a
10:15
physical response to the surveillance state and I think lastly that the old heads people like us who remembered all
10:22
The depth of the surveillance apparatus all the stuff that the Snowden leaks talked to us and told us about that the prism program
10:28
I mean all that stuff. I mean we've been up fed up with it and aware of it for over a decade
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And we know that you know, this isn't anything new. It's just kind of a newer wave of surveillance tech
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That's clearly
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fueling an industry. So
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I'm all for it man. I'm really happy that this is happening now, of course
10:49
Because we are thinkers we're critical thinkers
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there are already a number of people starting to come out and saying that this is even a Psyop the whole anti-flock thing and
10:59
People like James Lee who you know, I've had on my podcast. He's a he's a great guy good thinker
11:04
But I think they see an opportunity here to kind of twist the the gears around a little bit and to maybe point out
11:10
some type of different culprit and we could get into all that but I think it's funny that the
11:16
Overwhelming majority of people are so on board with this that now the conspiracy theories are starting to create
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These kind of conspiracies that justify what's happening, you know
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Well, I could see it if he was saying and I don't know what James Lee's position is on this necessarily
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But if if the point is it's not just flock then I would I would agree with him there that it that it's that it's been this
11:41
this amazing
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Specific focus on the company flock when we also have axon we have recor we have Motorola
11:51
Solutions we have quorum we have some other companies that are doing this as well, so I guess on the one hand
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I I'm glad grateful and a little bit surprised that the mainstream media is talking about it
12:05
I hope that but I could see them making a big deal about it
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just being this one company and then
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Everybody's ire is directed at this at flock and maybe they put flock out of business and they say up
12:20
We've we've solved the problem
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Meanwhile, all these competitors are out there who's with names that you don't recognize doing the exact same thing
12:28
Is that is that a concern that you have that they maybe the flock is is
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Is is taking all the blame for this in deflecting it away from some of the other co-conspirators
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Well, we know that the old bait and switch and deflection is one of the oldest tricks of the ruling class
12:46
You know, I certainly get that but I don't think it's necessarily
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Specifically centered just on flock. I think even if all the flock cameras were taken down in a city
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And acts on cameras or put back up or Motorola cameras or put back up the the automated license plate readers
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I still think people are gonna have this very real reaction to it. I don't think that the name flock specifically
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I don't think it's that the name specifically that people have an issue with I think it's just the idea that they're being tracked in their vehicles
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They're being monitored. They're being logged and so I think regardless of what company is doing that
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People are going to have this real visceral reaction now. I could be wrong
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But I'd hope not it just feels like flock is the the rally cry right now because it is well
13:36
it is the industry leader first of all, but second of all, it's a very memorable name and
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You know, we're seeing these things everywhere. There's there's certainly much more prevalent than the Motorola
13:46
versions of the automated license plate reader, so I
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Don't I don't really see it being an issue to be completely honest
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I really feel like that this ire and this anger is legitimate and it's not something that's necessarily being propped up regardless of the
14:00
Name of the company or the brand that you know these cameras are
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Good, you know being good. I hope so. I hope it's a a principled approach and not
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Something that just gets bogged down in the brand name. You know, they pull out the CEO
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They say he's the bad guy and they make him the villain and then they sink him somewhere and give the impression that
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I'm I'm hoping that it it I'm hoping that it doesn't matter what name is on it
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It's that the that the people are concerned about their
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their
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Just the fact that they're being watched. What is it?
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That they're doing with all the information, you know, they're because you can gather a lot of data
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But some of it is useful. Some of it isn't in the case of license plate readers
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They can see where who's coming and going of course. I can understand where there's value in that
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But then once they have all of this information
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is it being
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It's it being
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resold is it being you know the way Google does targeted advertisements
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I mean, could you imagine targeted advertisements for brands that have access to the these
15:15
ALPR's that are like they know where you are geographically at what time and then they could target an ad to hit you with a Dunkin Donuts
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Text message to hit your phone right about the time you're about to drive up to a Dunkin Donuts
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I mean I can my mind goes in some pretty dark places with this
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What have you found is like the the whole purpose of the information?
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That they're collecting
15:40
Well, first of all, let me just back up just slightly just because you mentioned the flock CEO
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And I don't know if you've caught this recently
15:47
But all of a sudden out of nowhere that the flock CEO Garrett Langley is now apologizing for calling D flock a group of terrorists
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I actually came out on a mainstream
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outlets and
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Maybe there's just one or an interview that got you know republished, but so this is kind of strange
16:06
This is kind of unique and new this isn't something we've seen from flock before in fact. We've always
16:12
Seen that flock has actually turned off the comments on their
16:16
Twitter account so anytime they would post any type of positive, you know PR puff piece or whatever
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Nobody would ever be able to comment on it
16:23
Well, they've changed that and now they're actually starting to reply and respond to people who are critical of flock products
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So I've had them twice now and the past week respond to a couple of my tweets
16:35
Now they won't have a back-and-forth, you know, I respond back to them and then that's that so
16:40
You know, they're they're not interested in having a dialogue
16:43
I think it's just trying to preserve the brand obviously and I think that's normal. They're kind of in crisis control right now
16:49
I think they've realized that you know all this
16:52
Attention on them is probably ultimately going to be hurting their bottom line
16:56
We just saw the LAPD cancel their their contracts just recently and I know there's speculation that you know
17:02
Who knows they're gonna renegotiate or they'll probably put a different
17:05
ALL PR reader in there that the city-wide or whatever, but
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Nevertheless, you know to answer your question Charlie
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Nobody really knows of course and this is the problem with a company like flock is because they have been so manipulative
17:20
They have been so deceptive and they haven't been transparent with
17:24
Majority of their their business operations. So they claim that all the footage all the information all the tracking is
17:31
Only retained for 30 days and then after that it's all deleted from their systems, but here's the thing
17:38
We just saw a recently a sheriff who
17:41
Claims that they found something worthwhile within the flock footage, right? And that's what majority of this
17:47
Positioning is is for safety right for law enforcement to be able to do their jobs more effectively more efficiently
17:53
So this sheriff just recently claimed that he isn't actually going to be deleting any of the L LR
18:01
AL PR data because
18:05
It's all now according to him all part of the investigation
18:09
So within this general vicinity of whatever one or two cameras where this crime the supposed crime took place now
18:16
He is going he's gonna be breaking the contract with flock to be able to
18:21
Maintain that data and hold on to it for any length of period that they stay deem necessary for the investigation
18:27
So as you could already imagine this is being abused
18:32
That's just one case, you know, we've heard at least 20 plus officers now abusing the flock camera databases
18:39
Looking up romantic interests looking up ex-partners looking up people that are visiting abortion clinics
18:46
All this is happening and it's gonna continue to happen until there's some type of guardrails or some type of boundaries that are outlined
18:52
By each individual police department and we haven't really seen that yet and another issue here is that
19:00
Any time there's a national emergency as we both know all the rules go out the window, right? So who's to say that?
19:07
There's some type big terrorist attack Trump, you know, there's another Trump assassination something like that
19:12
Then all of them automatically the rules are gonna change right and this has happened over and over again
19:18
And it gets even more difficult when there is a private public partnership like the flock and a lot of these local
19:26
Municipalities local police departments and stuff. So it is hard to tell exactly where it's gonna go, but
19:33
We already know that flock isn't being transparent. We already know that these systems are being abused
19:37
So the idea that that's it's not going to be in the future
19:42
It is highly unlikely and of course they're gonna tell us the opposite and that's exactly what you know
19:47
Why flock has become out of the shadows more or less to start defending their products because they realize they're losing the info war
19:55
And a lot of this stuff which is very legitimate that people are reporting on as far as the misuse the abuse
20:01
You know, it's only gonna continue to give them a black eye
20:07
Where are they getting where does flock or any of these companies get their
20:13
Authorization they're doing it at the city level
20:15
They're not doing it at the state level. Is that the reason why we see these
20:20
Do we
20:21
We see the the data center
20:24
City council meetings where they all the council members vote for a data center and everybody in the audience is screaming at them
20:31
Do we ever have these city council meetings where we get to discuss the role of these cameras in in the society?
20:39
Or is this just getting rammed through without any sort of due process?
20:45
So just recently I put together a tweet
20:49
Which actually turned out to be an article for the last American Vega bond
20:52
Which was eight ways to take down a flock camera without a saw-saw and that is actually one of the biggest parts is trying to identify
21:01
The contracts so if you know when the contracts are being signed when the dates they're actually going to be
21:08
Putting up these cameras. There is much more of a likelihood
21:12
You're actually going to be able to push back
21:14
The same thing is happening with the data centers a lot of times communities don't actually know that they're going up
21:20
They're going in until after it's too late
21:22
after you know breaking of the ground and everything starts to
21:27
Start happening so that is one of the biggest issues right now is that we have to be aware of you know
21:33
What's happening in our cities? We need to be involved and I know as anarchists
21:38
It kind of it pains me to say that because I don't want to be involved
21:41
But at the same time it is important that people who are paying attention do get involved with their local city council
21:48
and there are a bunch of different websites right now that could actually help us that locates flock cameras that
21:56
Actually tell you, you know, whether they're in your neighborhood
22:01
And there there are ways that we can continue to do this without necessarily having to involve the local government
22:07
But at the end of the day
22:09
Yes, and this is one of the things that flock stresses is that they're actually not in charge of how their products are being used
22:16
Once the contracts are signed they defer all responsibility onto the law enforcement
22:22
institution the
22:23
The department who is actually putting it up and I get that I mean that actually seems like it makes sense
22:29
but at the same time it really does
22:33
It really does make it easier for them to not take any responsibility when these things are misused and I think people are having a hard time
22:41
connecting those dots because
22:43
You know we we understand that the technology itself is the problem and it's exactly what government always does right they point the finger
22:51
They pass the buck so basically
22:55
The department is the people who are going to be in charge of any type of abuse
23:00
They're all supposed to be telling us, you know, how effective they are. I mean there there is a bunch of different ways that we can
23:08
Actually request information from our local city councils to
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Determine if they're being effective
23:15
If you know what kind of first of all one of the most important things before they even go up is a private privacy review
23:22
And I know it probably failed to mention that here, but
23:25
Most cities don't do this but we can start demanding that before they even go up that we have a privacy review
23:32
And actually ask the governments who are spending money on this surveillance technology, you know
23:38
What is it going to do to privacy? What are the risks?
23:41
How is our data protected?
23:43
All these types of things, you know, how long is the data going to be retained for I mean of course
23:49
Flock will give us a certain amount of answers
23:50
But it's important to hold the feet there the city council's feet to the fire with a lot of this stuff
23:55
And so I think what it's actually called is a privacy impact assessment
24:00
And so PIA I only think there's a handful of cities Seattle San Francisco
24:05
I made a post on this not too long ago that actually require it
24:09
But seeing that the surveillance state is being rolled out
24:13
Under the Trump administration and it's hitting all of our cities at the same time
24:17
This is something that we should all become much more familiar with the privacy impact assessment
24:21
Especially if there's any type of data centers being talked about or flock cameras
24:26
So there really is so much more to do and I would just appoint your audience to my article
24:33
At the last American Vega Bond
24:35
Which was called eight ways to remove flock cameras without a saw-saw
24:39
And that gives you a breakdown of pretty much every way that you can even use FOIA requests
24:45
To really just put the pressure on your your local city government and let them know that you're watching
24:51
Let them know that you're you're paying attention and hopefully you know with any luck you could get them
24:58
Taken out before they even go up you could have them completely cancel the contract before they're even put up in your town
25:04
And then our goal is getting republished on activist post as well
25:08
Of course I didn't mean as it should when I saw it I was like yeah this one's going up
25:14
I wonder about some of these technicalities. I saw there's a guy on X who's known as like the guardrail guy
25:21
His child was killed by a faulty guardrail and he's been going around obviously making noise with guardrails
25:30
But now he's turned his attention to flock cameras as well as far as their installation
25:33
Is there a technicality where we might be able to get them removed based on this guardrail stipulation?
25:40
Yeah, absolutely, and it's funny that you mentioned that because
25:43
Garrett Langley once again that the CEO flock just publicly announced on his Twitter that he actually met up with the guardrail guy
25:50
Probably one of the more high-profile critics of his and they're going to now
25:56
Try to do what they can do a better job to actually you know put these things up safely
26:01
Again though that kind of contradicts flocks positioning before because that wasn't something that was necessarily supposed to be under their purview
26:09
It's supposed to be under the city's purview and you know all the city's laws and regulations and statutes and all that stuff
26:16
But you're right. I don't have all the specifics on that but as I've seen a number of videos
26:22
Pointing out that these flock cameras are installed incorrectly and so that's just one one more way to really
26:29
Put the pressure on them especially if there are already cameras that are set up and established in your town
26:34
I mean this is something that is dangerous, you know because there needs to be some type of breakaway system with these poles
26:41
And if not then they become you know basically just a
26:46
Danger hazard to you your family anybody who's driving on these roads
26:50
So yeah, absolutely something just one more way to hold their feet to the fire absolutely Charlie
26:55
Yeah, and and they're a danger in the sense of what they're recording and their role in society not just being a
27:03
Immovable pole on the side of the road. It's a dangerous precedent that they're setting here
27:10
We've got is this American hardware
27:14
Are these American cameras? I mean because the first place my mind goes is like okay well
27:21
You've got hardware and software and
27:25
I can just I can think of the ramifications of some
27:30
Foreign entity
27:32
Getting access to all the flock cameras, I mean could you imagine if you could tap in from a software standpoint
27:40
And have access to all these cameras you would be pulling massive amounts of data
27:44
So is there and of course you mentioned
27:49
The Snowden documents from a while ago
27:51
I immediately think of vault seven and and the sort of capabilities of the CIA up until what 2013
28:00
extrapolate out where it's gone since then but
28:03
It feels like maybe the technology like backdoors
28:06
Layton
28:09
Places where the where they're hiding waiting to be activated from you know
28:13
I don't know the technicalities and capabilities of this stuff
28:16
But I can use my my little tinfoil hat brain to figure out that this could be
28:22
So valuable in the wrong hands is it built to be in the wrong hands by design
28:31
From my research no and I guess that might be this the one silver lining in this right and
28:38
You're basically just highlighting that the tick tock effect right I mean that was what yeah
28:44
And of course it got bastardized and it got weaponized and it turned into this you know state
28:50
It turned into this this all their big thing that you know and
28:55
Ended up being become you know manipulated for Larry Ellison and his family to to buy but
29:02
Nevertheless from what I could tell there are
29:06
Automated license plate reader companies that are in the US that do use Chinese hardware
29:11
I think there's a couple there
29:14
Hick vision
29:16
Uniview that supply these types of cameras and then same with Israelis
29:20
There's a couple Israeli firms any vision brief cam, but from what I could tell they're they're not significant
29:26
They're not major players
29:28
But it these are companies that seem kind of small and obscure to
29:33
The average American but apparently they are bigger players on the the global surveillance
29:40
Scale so
29:42
I think that even though flock and Motorola and axon you know aren't necessarily in bed with these foreign governments
29:50
This does seem to be something that we probably should be aware of that's possible
29:55
And there are already companies that are embedded into the US surveillance state at a much smaller level
30:02
But at the end of the day Charlie like who's the really the bigger threat than the American government
30:08
You know and of course I have to have that caveat because yeah, oh yeah
30:12
Every every aspect and every way that they can weaponize surveillance against us
30:16
It sure feels like they have been over the past year and a half so oh, yeah
30:21
I agree. It's not as though the Israeli government is willing to do something to us that our government isn't also willing to do
30:28
To us probably first and and more efficiently I it's it's
30:34
What's the scope of this problem? I mean Hakeem Anwar built the AI Dennis data center.org and is this great
30:42
Resource where you can kind of tap in and see on a visual level this map and kind of puts it in perspective
30:50
When you see like holy moly like we really have a problem here. Is there anything like that?
30:56
I know that there's a lot of these companies out here who are busy identifying the cameras
31:00
But do we have an idea of what the total number of cameras are in the country?
31:05
Already where they think that number is going to go
31:08
I mean I remember hearing about facial recognition cameras in China a decade ago and they were in the hundreds of millions back then
31:14
So yeah, I know where it could go. Where is it right now?
31:19
And where's it going?
31:21
You don't sound very enthusiastic asking that Charlie
31:24
I don't
31:26
I'm sorry I was a bit preloaded of a question
31:28
You can see it on my face. I'm like terrified what the answer might be
31:32
Yeah, no I get it man. This is a disturbing and bleak topic and I'm only smiling here because I'm talking to you man
31:39
I always enjoy our conversations but
31:42
Yeah, I get it it is overwhelming and
31:46
There isn't really any way to quantify
31:49
How many in total there are
31:51
Because the networks are kind of fragmented right the local police use them
31:55
There's HOA's that use them. There's private
31:58
Parking lots that use them
32:00
Border security uses them. I mean there there isn't really any one national
32:04
Registry that exists and so that's part of the problem as well
32:08
But we do have organizations like D flock which I already mentioned they've mapped a hundred and twenty thousand
32:15
License plate readers in the US
32:17
A hundred thousand of those are flock cameras and they lead the industry
32:21
But other companies which we've already touched on today axon, you know motorola vigilant
32:27
There's quite a few others
32:28
I really kind of only focus on motorola and axon because those are the two bigger players are already really kind of established
32:33
But it doesn't mean that there aren't other companies that are kind of up and coming
32:37
but flock basically claims that they have
32:41
Their product in I think six thousand cities the CEO as I mentioned just a
32:45
Recent interview and he said six thousand for about a year and a half. They were
32:49
Settled on five thousand, but obviously things are expanding
32:53
I've saw that there's three thousand law enforcement agencies that are using them across the country and
32:59
one of the nice things about def lock is that they actually do have a
33:04
A video that shows you the real-time
33:07
Since I think it started in 2023 so over the past three years how quickly
33:13
each year
33:15
These things are expanding with a map that shows the little dots, you know across the country of where they're at and
33:21
Obviously that the cities have a much higher concentrated area, but there really isn't any escaping them now. They're they're everywhere and
33:29
Again part of my issue with this is that well, okay, maybe
33:34
Maybe they're not being abused to the extent that they could be but who's to say once all this architect are this
33:42
You know this infrastructure goes up who's to say it's not going to be abused in the future
33:47
And we know that the the government the US government has a long history of mission creep especially in the Romulus surveillance
33:54
And so I'm worried about something like you know, we were just talking about
33:59
foreign aspects of this and potential you know foreign
34:06
Entities that could be somehow involved
34:08
But even like company like Palantir that is so deeply embedded in our own government if they were to somehow be connected with flock
34:17
That's like the future of the US surveillance state that's fused, you know
34:20
And so that's where I start to become a little more concerned about things because if there is some type of again national emergency
34:29
Some type of cyber attack who knows some anything that they want to use as being in it, you know a reason to justify
34:36
further expanding
34:38
Some of the guidelines are in place right now
34:40
This is going to be a full-on drag net across the country and there isn't going to be any escaping it right now
34:47
We have tools there as I mentioned there's websites
34:50
That could actually outline a map for you to travel from point A to point B without getting caught up in any of
34:56
the flock camera
34:57
automated license plate readers, but
35:00
In the next few years, I don't feel as optimistic about that including
35:05
We haven't even got into this yet, but there's
35:08
Vigilant solutions, which is a company that is that was bought up by Motorola who is now starting to also
35:16
use Bluetooth tracking
35:19
alongside these
35:21
Automated license plate readers. So if you happen to drive by they could tap into your phone
35:25
they could tap into your
35:27
AirPods and
35:29
Further track you further get all that data and information from you
35:33
So this is only expanding further and further. This is becoming a pretty sizable significant industry
35:40
Flock's valuation from last year to this year increased three billion dollars
35:44
So I can only foresee that there's going to be even more people entering this industry
35:51
and trying to kind of
35:53
Capitalize on the lucrative nature of it, especially when law enforcement is handing out contracts like candy, you know
36:00
and so yeah
36:02
We could get into all that as well, but it is a little concerning
36:07
Yeah, they flock clearly has the first mover advantage here
36:11
They've as you mentioned they've they're in 6,000 cities. How did they do that? How was there?
36:17
Who's financing them?
36:19
Who's on their board that is connected into the government? I know how this usually works
36:24
I mean who who's pulling the strings and opening doors for this
36:28
Company to come out of nowhere and be worth quite a bit of money and have a
36:33
I mean, it's not a monopoly, but it's a pretty good head start on everybody else
36:38
I mean or do we have questions about their financing? They didn't come out of Incutail by any chance. Did they I mean this?
36:46
Something that might have I don't know a military intelligence
36:52
Fingerprints all or money all over it
36:55
Sure. Yeah. Well, Incutail is probably the first place that we should always look for these types of things, of course Louie Gilman
37:03
The guy who is the kingmaker. He's the one who made Peter Thiel the kingmaker maker initially, but
37:09
Oddly enough, I haven't seen a lot of evidence that there is
37:14
Backdoors deals going on or maybe one mover and shaker who is really facilitating a lot of these contracts now
37:20
What I did find that is interesting
37:23
maybe not too
37:26
Unsurprising to to your audience, but
37:29
Federal public safety grants are routine routinely used to install flock license plate cameras
37:35
So that the feds are basically giving out a certain amount of money for local governments
37:42
Why I should say local taxpayers to pay for these things and here's the kicker is that once they go up?
37:48
Then it ultimately lands back on the city to continue the maintenance on these things. So
37:54
That is I think probably the one and that the biggest ways that they're going up is that they're getting
38:00
Cities police departments are getting grants
38:03
Federally for these things to go up. So there is incentive by the federal government as well
38:08
Which you know is in itself and we've seen how these things expand, right?
38:13
The 1033 program the militarization of police. I mean that was all grants as well
38:18
That was all giving the old ex-military equipment to police departments. So
38:25
That is one way that they're definitely going up and I'm sure just aggressive lobbying
38:29
I think as well that you know, police departments have kind of bought into the
38:35
Advertising of this and you know to be fair
38:39
It does work to a certain extent, you know, we see
38:43
police departments local police departments making posts about how they found, you know, this
38:49
Criminal who happened to be driving away and this model car or whatever. So I
38:54
Don't think that it's completely lost in the sense that you know, these things are only specifically for surveillance
39:00
but the problem is you're surveilling
39:02
300,000 people to find one criminal right and I think most people have a big problem with that because
39:09
Flock likes to say safety is a right a human right
39:13
But I would argue that privacy is probably more aligned with being a human right
39:18
Even that has arguments that go against it. I'm not saying it's bulletproof
39:22
But compared to both of them safety or privacy
39:25
I think privacy because as we know again as freedom lovers all these things the most tyrannical
39:32
Actions are always based in some type of promise of safety, right? So
39:37
This is just another one of those
39:39
You said it's working. Is it working in the courts or the is the law enforcement able to get convictions?
39:46
using this evidence
39:49
Have they tried to get convictions with the new component of the flock cameras that you mentioned of the
39:55
The device that's grabbing
39:58
Bluetooth
39:59
Information, I mean that seems like a huge privacy can of worms that like
40:04
Inadmissible like holy shit. What are you doing? You don't have a warrant to be grabbing this information of cars that are just driving by
40:11
I mean, this seems insane to me. Has it tested has it been tested through the court system yet?
40:17
You know just recently I came across some information because I've always
40:22
Shared with my audience and anytime I'm doing these interviews about flock that there was basically a legal gray area
40:27
Like we didn't really know what the legality of this was because as you know
40:31
I know first amendment auditors know there is really no reasonable expectation of privacy in public
40:37
however
40:38
It turns out that's only halfway true
40:40
And especially when it comes to these automated license plate trackers
40:44
So the US versus Jones in 2012
40:48
Made clear that the long-term tracking of somebody's movements on public roads raises serious fourth amendment concerns
40:54
And then we had a more recent ruling well almost 10 years ago now
40:58
Carpenter versus the US which ruled that complying or compiling I should say all-encompassing record of a person's movement
41:05
Goes beyond ordinary public exposure
41:08
So and I know there was just recently a supreme court decision on this as well
41:13
And I haven't had a chance to dig into that completely, but if I had to speculate
41:18
I think it aligns with both of these rulings and decisions from previous years
41:23
So if that's the case it does appear that these cameras are operating in an illegal sense
41:29
Not to say that flock and their army of lawyers aren't going to try to oppose that and do everything they can to you know
41:36
preserve their business model
41:38
but it does it does appear with the more information that I've recently obtained that there is
41:45
Some legality involved with this that I guess they
41:49
Just decided to ignore when they you know
41:52
We're contracting over the past three or four years with all these police departments
41:57
I would be hard to I'd be hard to believe that they weren't aware of these two rulings
42:03
But there must be some more legal ambiguity there or else I would assume that they
42:10
Probably wouldn't have moved forward but
42:13
Again, this kind of comes back down to how the state wants to view it and how the state wants to rule it
42:19
We know a legal monopoly on justice. We'll always side with
42:25
These types of technologies with the type of infrastructure if it means that they have more control, you know, so I
42:31
don't expect some type of fair
42:35
Ruling if it does come down to the courts to eventually
42:39
Kind of judge, you know, if this is legal or illegal
42:43
But as far as the technology doing its job for law enforcement, I
42:51
Think and once again, there is no database. That's you know, unfortunately, there's no
42:58
mandated
43:00
Database where you know, we there a registry where we could find out this information
43:04
So we basically just have to go by what our local police department tell us that the PR
43:10
and
43:11
From what I could tell it's not like they're
43:14
Completely useless, but again that you have to weigh the privacy for you know, what it's actually going to accomplish
43:21
And it doesn't seem like it's it's worth it in the long run
43:26
Reminds me of those sound recording
43:28
Collecting devices that were they were putting on street corners and they said oh they would collect the noise if there was a shotgun down there
43:34
It's like really that's
43:37
That's how you're gonna determine crime is that it's just gonna pick up random noises and you're gonna interpret them
43:42
And what if it's a car goes by and it's a backfire. Yeah, that sounds like a shotgun, too
43:46
I mean, are you gonna send the SWAT team to some some poor bastard revving his car in his driveway?
43:51
I mean, they probably will but probably ask you dude
43:54
Is there any sort of legal precedent case law or anything that has been used to get red light cameras removed that could be
44:03
modified and used for these
44:06
license plate readers
44:10
Not that I'm aware of I have heard stories though that and this is the thing is that these flock cameras are going everywhere
44:17
They're again, they're not being installed correctly
44:19
But they're also going up on private property, which is really strange and we've seen a number of people who've had them installed in their front yard
44:26
Right next to the sidewalk, but actually legally technically on their property. So we have seen them be uninstalled because of that
44:34
I've also heard cases of
44:36
being pointed at somebody's driveway and that was enough to legally have it removed and
44:43
Again, this all is kind of a legal gray area because
44:47
About three months ago what we were finding was that when FOIA requests were placed on flock cameras
44:54
The city itself wasn't quite sure how to adjudicate if these were private property or if these were public property
45:01
And so because of that legal gray area there
45:04
It gave people the opportunity to not only do a FOIA request on the camera
45:08
But the camera footage and so cities started to kind of backpedal and backtrack and say whoa, whoa, whoa
45:15
We could watch this footage. We could own this footage
45:17
But the public cannot have access to and so we saw actually a number of cities take down the flock cameras
45:24
Simply because they weren't sure legally how to proceed with the FOIA requests and legally if that footage
45:31
That was being documented and recorded by the flock cameras was something that was private or public
45:37
So I know there's a few other cases as well and all this stuff is moving so fast
45:42
There really is a lot to keep your
45:44
Your thumb on the the pulse of when it comes to the flock camera stuff
45:48
But I'm pretty sure there was at least a couple more cameras in fact or a couple more incidents
45:52
I should say in fact. I had a friend call me just recently who said that she
45:57
Had her front license plate stolen and she reported that
46:02
She was driving about a week later
46:04
And she had several cops pull up on her within seconds on this deserted
46:09
Road nobody around and it was because
46:12
The system didn't actually register it correctly
46:16
She still had her back license plate, but it didn't have she didn't have her front license plate
46:20
So just that one miscommunication was enough of an error to have police
46:25
Actually track her down after that was hit on one of the cameras and and stop her and thank God
46:30
They were actually pretty reasonable about the whole thing, but that's just one of many
46:35
Examples I remember reading maybe a few months back of somebody's license plate
46:39
Being misread by one of these flock cameras what was supposed to be zero in the license plate was misread as an oh and
46:47
They've been they were pulled over they were arrested even taken to jail
46:50
These stories aren't uncommon
46:52
So there is an error rate as well that we have to kind of consider when it comes to these things algorithms are far from being
46:58
perfect at this point
47:01
What if we took two of the worst
47:04
Components of policing and put them together
47:08
Flot cameras and civil asset forfeiture
47:11
What if these guys these pirates along these corridors these interstate corridors that are notorious for cops pulling people over and taking their
47:20
Money and things like that under the guise of drug trafficking corridors
47:26
What can kind of gray area are we getting into now because the police have access to the footage
47:32
Yeah, and a percentage of the police
47:37
Budget comes from every year they expect to to have the money that they
47:41
Retained from civil asset forfeiture. This is is this not giving them a very
47:49
Murky sort of incentive structure here. Oh, it absolutely is it absolutely is and it's ripe for abuse
47:55
You know once again, especially without any legitimate guardrails put in place
47:59
I mean these guardrails should be put in place before the contracts are even signed but because
48:03
So many people are unaware of these things
48:06
I don't think there's enough demand for it even at the local level
48:11
So that's just one more reason we need to be involved with this stuff guys and show up and show out
48:16
at your local city meeting city local city council meetings, but
48:21
These things while I'm not aware of any civil asset forfeiture abuse that has been
48:28
Directly related to flock. I'm I'm sure it's going to happen. I'm sure it's just a matter of time Charlie, but we have seen
48:35
federal agencies the alphabet agencies actually abusing these things and
48:40
It's something that I haven't heard about as much over the past month or so
48:44
But in the beginning of the year there was a story or two coming out at least once a week
48:48
ice agents illegally tap into local police departments flock camera systems to find
48:56
Illegal immigrant or whatever, you know, and I mean it wasn't just ice. It was DHS. It was the FBI. It was the ATF
49:04
I mean all these agencies
49:06
Recognize and realize the power of these automated license plate readers. And so they're illegally
49:12
Going against policy and they're they're utilizing them and one other thing I should probably mention is that you know, we think of flock cameras
49:20
There are multiple types of flock cameras. In fact, you were just mentioning the
49:25
The microphones that I think I want was like shots shot scatter or something like that
49:31
That was one company by itself
49:33
But flock actually makes that same the very same device is called the flock Raven, which is a microphone
49:38
So they actually have an arsenal of different products, which is the flock condor cameras
49:44
Which are the black ones that most people see in their neighborhoods and then of course they have the aro drone
49:51
Drones as well and that's part of their first responder fleet. That's all part of flock as well
49:57
But they also have these unique cameras called the condor cameras and they're
50:02
Circular they're in kind of like the round bubble casing and those have the pan-tilt zoom features
50:09
Not only do they have the pan-tilt zoom. They also are able to be tapped into in real time
50:15
so if
50:17
Let's say one of these flock powered real-time crime centers
50:21
One of these cameras aren't just going back to look through the footage
50:24
It's already recorded through the automated license plate tracker
50:26
They could actually go into real-time and watch people and that's one of the things that a lot of people have been up
50:34
In arms about is because at first and again this goes back to flock being so deceptive
50:38
They were telling us that
50:39
It's only vehicles being tracked only vehicles to only license plates
50:43
It just came across
50:45
One of the flock representatives on an interview saying that not too long ago. It's just license plates
50:51
But we're finding them in more and more places that don't even have any roads near them
50:56
There people are documenting them bike paths swimming pools
50:59
gymnastics training centers parks hiking trails, so they're going up all over the place and
51:07
That's kind of the creepy part. That's the part that's creeping people out because this extends beyond
51:12
The objective that they claim they are supposed to be here for and once again just continues to fuel the fire of
51:19
The concept of mission creep, right?
51:22
I mean, how many is going to be enough? Is there ever going to be enough?
51:25
How many would they won't even tell us how many are up already? They only give us ballpark figures
51:29
there is no transparency with this company and so I
51:34
Think that's part of the PR push. That's why Garrett Langley and yes, that's his real name
51:39
Langley is so interested in
51:42
Trying to preserve the image right now because there isn't a lot of transparency and they've been very deceptive over the years
51:51
The united nations has been pretty clear about
51:54
their
51:55
Vision for the future 15 minute cities agenda 2030
51:59
This feels like it's part of that
52:01
This feels like a good way to have a 15 minute city
52:04
I think maybe the first time people hear that they envision on a where are you going to put the walls?
52:08
It's like no, no, they're not actual walls. They're they're digital walls and
52:15
They're invisible and maybe you know, you're on a 15 minute radius based on where your cell phone is
52:21
But these these cameras feel like they'll play a role in this as well. Is this is are you finding any sort of?
52:30
supra national
52:32
Influence coming from these united nations types groups like that. Is there any international fingerprints on it because
52:41
You know, you meant you just mentioned how creepy it would be where they could you know, they're they're they're seeing everything
52:47
That's
52:48
Clearly by design and who would want to see everything well the people putting the world government into place would want to see
52:54
Everything would be beneficial to them. So I'm curious if there's been any sort of
52:59
Uh international involvement in this
53:03
Not so far not to um, you know the research I've had and I will certainly be the first person to report on it if that is the case
53:12
unfortunately
53:14
These things do exist. Fortunately, it doesn't seem like there is any
53:19
overarching
53:20
Influence or pressure campaigns right now, um, but it is the infrastructure once again of a surveillance state
53:27
And I can't stress that enough guys because the safety aspect of it
53:32
It's always always always been the the veneer for more control and I think that's ultimately what this is about
53:39
It's making everything more observable
53:42
more searchable more more linkable
53:45
Um
53:46
And just more control, you know use using data to manage populations
53:50
I mean that's basically the direction that we're going
53:53
and it's gonna be
53:56
Stack on top of stacked here, right? It's not going to just be the the lrp l r l al pr. Sorry. Keep messing that up
54:04
The automated license plate readers by themselves. It's going to be the cctv's
54:08
It's going to be the drones. We're just talking about in fact. I just made a post earlier today about how
54:14
Uh 6 000 plus now, uh police departments in the us have contracts with drone companies. So
54:23
This is becoming more of a reality as well. I remember
54:27
10 years ago in the police accountability movement
54:29
We would talk about drones being in our skies at all times
54:33
And people laugh about it. They thought it was unrealistic and now
54:37
We're moving more to that direction and I think it's only a matter of time until
54:43
All these cameras have facial recognition
54:46
until they have other ways to track and observe our
54:51
Unique identifiers like our gate
54:53
Um stuff like that and you know
54:56
This is just a part of the equation as well. And I know the people who
55:00
Seem to be pro flock like to bring this up a lot, but our phones
55:04
Obviously our phones are one of the biggest track phone location track trackers. I mean
55:10
That is one of a huge issue as well on top of these other things the payment trails the body cameras
55:17
um all these things
55:19
But at least the phones are voluntary, right? Like we actually have an opportunity to leave our phone at home or not use certain apps
55:26
Um, we don't have that opportunity with these license plate trackers
55:30
We all have to use the roads. We all need to travel to do our you know stuff our daily life
55:36
Um, so I think that's a pretty big distinguishing factor there
55:40
So ultimately, yeah, I think it is a a full panopticon
55:44
I think vehicles devices our faces our behaviors all these things are going to be tracked in the name of safety
55:51
Um, and you know, it could be under the guise of something like climate policy
55:57
Uh, we're already starting to see that, you know, and uh the uk the the u les
56:01
Blade runners, you know taking down
56:04
um all those cameras and so, uh
56:08
I don't think it's necessarily about just the cameras itself
56:11
It's about this world where surveillance becomes normalized, you know, we're we're constantly being observed
56:16
And I think we all read a book about that a long time ago, you know, which was 1984
56:21
I don't I don't think we want to live that lifestyle nor do I think we want to hand it over to our kids
56:26
So, um now is the time guys. It's not five years from now. It's not two years from now
56:31
Now is the time to be standing up and speaking out about this stuff and I know they're trying to
56:36
Turn a lot of this stuff into a left right fight between us
56:40
Because that's all they have left because people are from both sides of, you know
56:45
Left and the right people who pay attention to this stuff liberty lovers people are just part of the normie class and
56:50
Distracted and working their everyday lives
56:53
Working and doing their everyday lives. I think we're all fed up and we're all starting to come together
56:58
There really isn't any dividing line when it comes to being against the the Palantirs of the world and being against the
57:04
Data centers and the flock cameras and stuff. So they're really trying their best to divide us on it
57:09
but
57:09
I think this is one thing that will unify us and we just got to stay strong because
57:14
Once this infrastructure is rolled out, it's going to be much more difficult to roll back
57:17
So mission creep is a thing and we got to stop it now
57:22
Well, it's no mystery why you've become
57:25
A leading voice in this your work with police in the police made you uniquely qualified
57:32
To to tackle this you have been talking about this for a long time. Let's wrap up with this
57:36
If someone's out here, they're listening they feel a little bit
57:41
Well overwhelmed, I suppose, but they want to do something about it
57:46
What's some actionable information? I mean, where can we make a difference?
57:50
Is this is this going to happen on the local level? Is this something you got to get your sheriff involved in?
57:55
Can we actually vote our way out of this?
57:57
On a local level, where are the pressure points? I mean
58:01
What can we do?
58:04
Sure
58:05
Yeah, well, you know again as anarchists
58:07
I know we're skeptical of utilizing the apparatus of government
58:11
But the more localized it is the more of the defensive voting and more of the defensive postures that we could take
58:17
So I would say even though it might seem
58:21
A futile it might not be your first choice of how to spend a
58:25
Thursday afternoon or something
58:27
I would say try to get involved with your local city politics if possible because our
58:32
Voices do have an impact. I mean, we're seeing this
58:35
Over and over again. I mean just the fact that the flock ceo is now
58:40
Coming out and doing damage control. I mean that's that's huge. You know, I mean just we just saw LAPD cancel these contracts
58:46
We're seeing
58:47
Meta roll, you know, they tried to roll out one of their new AI programs and it got so much backlash that
58:54
They actually had to cancel it, you know, I mean, there's example after example here
58:59
Peter Thiel. He's fleeing to Argentina, right? Like he's he's had so much pressure put on him
59:04
Or at least that's what they're telling us. He's fleeing to Argentina. So there are examples that when we utilize our voice
59:12
It produces good things and that we can't have some type of effect and influence on how these things turn out
59:18
So I would say very much get involved with that also just connect and plug in to
59:23
Our allies that are fighting on team liberty. I mean D flock has been a wonderful resource. In fact, they're hosting
59:31
This sunday two days from now
59:33
It's like a week of action call
59:36
I think it's at 5 p.m. EST
59:38
So you could sign up for that at D flock and just tune in guys. They're going to give us the roadmap here at least
59:46
how to do
59:47
Stuff in your own area and that's also another great way to link with people and network
59:52
Um, I already mentioned the foyer requests if you guys want to reach out to me
59:56
I have my my website jasonbassler.com
59:59
I'd be happy to give you the template for the foyer requests
1:00:02
Just plug in your own city and you could send them off and the more that we could
1:00:08
Utilize their own
1:00:10
You know mechanisms against us including foyer requests the better make their lives difficult make them have to produce this information
1:00:17
Um, as we are saying too. Yeah, if we can expose the unsafe flock installations
1:00:23
With the the city council stuff. I mean that is just another angle that
1:00:28
Holds their feet to the fire because these are their own standards that they're not living up to right
1:00:33
Um, one of the other things that I would probably suggest
1:00:36
Is rating and reviewing businesses in your area that do have flock cameras on their property
1:00:42
the market always
1:00:45
is
1:00:46
Motivated by incentives right if they find that there are a lot of people are frustrated and pissed off and they're not no longer
1:00:52
Going to their business because these things are up in their parking lots
1:00:55
they're going to pull them out so if just
1:00:59
Utilizing our voice the power and numbers being organized
1:01:02
All these things are going to help us move in the right direction
1:01:05
And there's already enough of a backlash online
1:01:08
It shouldn't be too difficult to try to find people in your area
1:01:11
And if if you haven't then you're the one you're the person that needs to organize and you're the person who needs to
1:01:16
Take the initiative and take charge of this and become that leader in your area
1:01:20
So I'm sure I could rattle off and a bunch of other stuff charlie
1:01:23
But I think that's probably a pretty good place to start along with my eight ways
1:01:26
To take down the flock cameras and maybe you could link to that or something
1:01:30
But I'm going to I'm going to put the links to your websites down in the show notes
1:01:34
Uh, what about the podcast that you do with matt agarist? Uh, where can people find that?
1:01:38
Yeah, yeah. So the free thought project calm, uh, even though we've endured years of censorship
1:01:43
We're still going strong. We're still putting out about two to three articles every day
1:01:47
the free thought free thought project calm and we also have, um, our
1:01:52
Podcast we do one a week and you could find them there or on spotify our apple podcast
1:01:58
In fact charlie, I think we're overdue man. I can't remember the last time we had you on
1:02:01
But I know it's been a couple years now. So let's do it. I'd love to have you back on brother
1:02:04
Yeah, absolutely. That's jason basler everybody. He's out there actually doing it
1:02:08
If you want to support his outstanding work, you'll find the links down in the show notes
1:02:12
If you want to connect with me macro aggressions dot.io is the place to do that. Thanks everybody
1:02:17
We'll talk to you again soon