Latest / The Other 16 Hours / Episode 7: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
Transcript
- Morgan Paul: welcome back to the other sixteen hours, a podcast about everything and anything that we do outside of the sixteen hours. Rachel Hawley: It truly could be about everything or anything. I Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: love that. Welcome back everyone. Morgan Paul: Rachel went to a concert last night. I don't know if you want to talk about that, but Rachel Hawley: yeah. Yeah. I was just telling Morgan that I went to a concert last night and it was a lot of fun. it's this smaller indie artist named Ethan Reagan. And I definitely Morgan Paul: Cool. Rachel Hawley: think that's my favorite type of I wouldn't say maybe not my favorite genre music, but a genre music that I've loved for a very, very long time. It's just indie singer songwriter. So I never Spotify shows me or I discover these smaller artists and I get notified that they're coming to Boston. I'm like, yeah, Morgan Paul: Exactly. Rachel Hawley: I'm gonna go. So it was a really intimate venue. It's probably five hundred people there, but they did such a good job. And I've been listening to his music for a while. So it was just a ton of fun. he he's a solo artist I think, but they he's touring with a band and the bass player and the saxophone were father son. So the dad was on the saxophone and the son was on the bass, which was really cool. And they just had Morgan Paul: That's so wholesome. I love that. Rachel Hawley: and and and the in the guy in the sax he's probably he has to be like in his sixties. And just Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: seeing him tour. I think this Ethan guy is like 21. So it's a pretty young band. So then seeing this Morgan Paul: No way. Wow. Rachel Hawley: yeah. So then seeing this guy who's probably in his 60s touring with a bunch of these kids and my gosh, I just want to know what he's feeling right now. Did he ever think he would be living this life, a second career or I don't know. It Morgan Paul: Yeah, no. Rachel Hawley: was just it was just really cute and wholesome. I'm like, yeah, so it was great, but didn't get to bed until late. Morgan Paul: feel like you and I have that sorry, I was gonna say you and I I feel like have Rachel Hawley: No, you're good. Morgan Paul: the same mindset about that kind of stuff. We're I'm always wondering, I'm like, I wonder where this server lives or where this person does X or why do they do that or where did they get this from? my boyfriend's always like Yeah, Rachel Hawley: Just wanna know everyone's backgrounds. Yeah. Morgan Paul: I'm like I need a quick fact sheet here before we get into it. Yeah. Rachel Hawley: Exactly. Give me the context. Morgan Paul: No, totally. Rachel Hawley: I don't know. I don't I don't know if that's is that a Midwest thing? Is that Midwest curiosity or just I have no idea. because Morgan Paul: I don't know. Rachel Hawley: similarly, I was standing next to a girl who I could t clearly tell she was there by herself. And I was like, Are you here by yourself? She's like, Yeah, I'm like, my gosh, have you done this before? How did you discover this guy? Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: And you know, you gotta befriend the people that are standing by you, especially if they're solo. But it was cute. Morgan Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe maybe that's another just Midwest thing. I feel like that could also be very Midwest of us. Rachel Hawley: Just try making try to make everyone feel comfortable and welcome. Morgan Paul: We've I've got an exciting thing this afternoon, which is very exciting and I won't reveal it until it's actually done. But big things. Yeah, Rachel Hawley: Listeners love that. Yeah. Morgan Paul: big things. We I think we can talk about it the next episode. We definitely can. If we can't, I'm gonna be really sad. So Rachel Hawley: No. No, Morgan Paul: But Rachel Hawley: I know what it is. And it's always funny you you're it's always when people online are like, yeah, I'm doing something really cool, but I can't tell you anything about it. You're like, Great. Here we are. Morgan Paul: Yeah, great. But the g the fun thing is is that next week I'll be in Boston, so we'll have to meet up. And maybe Rachel Hawley: Yes. I haven't looked at the weather yet, but Morgan Paul: I hope it'll be nice. It's been weird here. Rachel Hawley: I think it'll be nice. It's supposed to rain all weekend, which is really unfortunate because I wanted to go for a bike ride. And Morgan Paul: Sure. Rachel Hawley: then it's supposed to get cool. but yeah, I heard Chicago. I have some colleagues that are there for a conference right now, and they said it was windy, rainy. I don't know. Sounds pretty on par for Chicago. Morgan Paul: So yeah, very, very on par. So it has been throughout this week, which just probably honestly describes the week that I'm having, is 70 degrees and sunny Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: and humid. And then you Rachel Hawley: Okay. Morgan Paul: go outside when it turns dark and it's cold. really cold. I'm like, what is this? Rachel Hawley: Weird. Morgan Paul: You wake up the next day, humid, and then it it might rain in the middle of the day while the sun is shining. It Chicago's having a Rachel Hawley: Bizarre. Morgan Paul: little bit of a tantrum for sure. tomorrow I'm hosting a 5K with three people. So Rachel Hawley: I saw that. Morgan Paul: with one of my friends who lives also lives in the city and I'm super excited. But there are so many people signed up. And I am so excited about it. But this storefront that we're doing it at is smaller than the one that's in Westloop. we're doing one if you're familiar with the Chicago area. Westloop, most people Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: likely know something about Westloop. It just is a very large storefront and more space to run around. But the one where we're doing it is a smaller location, closer to me, which I love, and closer to a run path. Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: But it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot. So hopefully the weather's nice 'cause then we will have a big turnout. But I'm I'm excited. This is probably my biggest event that I've hosted ever. And so that many people is gonna be insane. Rachel Hawley: That's sweet. So when you say storefront, is the run starting at free people? Are you saying it's ending at free people? And you're just not worried about your there's gonna just gonna be a lot of people in a more not as open area based on where this free Morgan Paul: Yeah, think of Rachel Hawley: people is located? Morgan Paul: yeah, honestly think of the I don't know, is there a free people on Newberry Street? a side street of Newberry Rachel Hawley: I don't think so. Morgan Paul: Street? Okay, well think of a smaller storefront on Newberry Street Rachel Hawley: Okay, that's yeah, that's tiny. Morgan Paul: and you're gonna have over three hundred people hanging out, Rachel Hawley: Holy cow. Morgan Paul: yeah, on the street and have to guide them through runs. So little bit this is this is a good intro to our episode of what it Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: actually means to do something like this. And I I'm so excited, but I just want everything to go well and everyone to be safe, honestly, because Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: it's super small, a super small condensed area. And we're starting at the store and ending at the store because there's juices and they're doing t-shirt presses and they give out t shirts for this 5k because it's in with Girls Incorporated. which is a foundation that they do it for. And so all that money that they raise, it's free to go, but if you do choose to donate, Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: they donate money to a the organization, which is Rachel Hawley: Amazing. I'm so proud of you. I'm sure it'll go very Morgan Paul: Thank you. Rachel Hawley: well. And if people are like claustrophobic or I feel like some people may just want to do the run. And then they're like, actually, now I want to go get my own coffee somewhere or go out for brunch or whatever, you know? So Morgan Paul: Yeah. Super fair. Rachel Hawley: it kind of it it naturally I think will just work itself out, fizzle out. Morgan Paul: fizzle out. Yeah. I agree. The good news is, at nine AM so that street doesn't get super busy until eleven ish. Rachel Hawley: Yeah, everyone will be still asleep. Morgan Paul: So I'm hoping we can take a giant picture in the street and then move on. and then get on the sidewalks. But Rachel Hawley: I it'll be perfect. I'm excited to we'll have to talk about it next week because I'm also curious just what went into the planning and the partnership and Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: all the behind the scenes stuff. I think it's a great building community I think is something that we're both really passionate about. Morgan Paul: Mm. Rachel Hawley: And it could be any any sort of community. And yeah, putting on events for people to bring people together is something that I love to do as well. So I wanna learn. your tips and tricks and how everything went. Morgan Paul: With that, let's jump into Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: the topic of the episode. We actually had a request which I love. Rachel Hawley: Yes. Morgan Paul: I know we both love, but I'll let you take it away. Rachel Hawley: Yeah, wanna say if you if you guys ever have ideas or topics that you'd like us to talk about, you can message either of us on Instagram. We have our email in the bio of the podcast. You can send Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: our podcast email, any topic ideas, because we want our content to be relevant to our listeners and helpful. So received a message and it said, would really love if you guys could do an episode on the growing pains of transitioning to fellowship. developing soft skills, imposter syndrome during your first year, et cetera. It's hitting me hard. Sad face. And that made me really sad to read that. But then Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: I remember feeling similar. And I know that so many other people experienced that, their first year of fellowship as well. But we were talking before this, it's not something limited to fellowship. This is something that everyone experiences. And when I say this, talking about imposter syndrome, growing pains, just doing something new will will come with that. So Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: whether you just started fellowship and you're, you know, a couple of months in at this point or residency or transitioning to your first full time job. postgrad or even if you've been working for years and you are changing jobs, I think it is Morgan Paul: Yeah, I think that's a big one. Rachel Hawley: yeah, very common. So we want to talk about it today. I feel like we talked about this a little bit last week with the idea, you said something n nice, Morgan. when you're in pharmacy school or when you're in school in general, you're you're given Tasks and these are the objectives, or these are the things that you want to learn. This is what you need to study, this is what you need to do to pass. And when you transition to a full-time job, whether that is in a hospital, in a corporate setting, it's, it's not necessarily laid out for you. you have there's expectations and oftentimes you'll do goal setting, but Just knowing what you should be doing, how you should be doing it is really hard because there's not just a simple rubric that one gets to follow. So wanna reflect. Yeah. Morgan Paul: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's a huge thing. Sorry, go ahead. Rachel Hawley: No, I wanna reflect your what was your experience like transitioning post grad and and starting fellowships? Morgan Paul: Yeah, I think obviously there is this layer of excitement that is in months one through three. You're just you're just happy to be there. Honestly, you're happy to be there. You are experiencing all these new things. For me in particular, I worked at a pharma company prior to this, but I only got a little glimpse into what the day-to-day looked like and it wasn't it was field based, right? It wasn't headquarters based. And so my Fellowship with headquarters base, and you get there, and the one thing that pharmacy school certainly does not teach you is the corporate world. And I say this pretty frequently to a lot of fellows is truthfully, that was one of the hardest things for me to learn. Because I'm sure if you've been listening to this podcast, Rachel and I are pretty straight up people. We say we say it like it is. We're not usually Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: beating around the bush or we're not using all these tactics and the corporate world itself and the environment in which you're in all day long at an office is just so much different than working in a pharmacy or being on rotation. Yeah, absolutely. Rachel Hawley: It's a lot of yeah, finessing. Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: And I think you learn that as you go on forward. But right, for so for a perfect example, I think when it comes to communication style, you have to learn that a little bit differently. You can't just speed message someone and be like, Hey, can you give me XYZ or hey, a perfect example in my head is I remember on rotation, one of the physicians was like, Hey, can you adjust the dose of rosmide? Blah blah blah. And I was like, Yeah, okay, got it. And that's just so much different. the way you would have to word that in corporate America Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: is just not translatable. So I Rachel Hawley: That's such a good example. He that physician, she's let's make it a woman. She's not gonna Morgan Paul: Yes. Rachel Hawley: be like, Hi Morgan, I'm Dr. Paul, and I am on this floor. It's so great to virtually meet you. We have Morgan Paul: Yes. Rachel Hawley: this patient and we need to adjust this medicine. What are your thoughts? Like, no rush. that would never, you know? Yeah, it could never happen. Morgan Paul: Yeah, would love to Yeah, could never happen. It would be so straightforward. It would be like yeah, it would just be we need patient X on patient dose Y. Thanks. T H X. And so I think that's hard skill Rachel Hawley: yes. Morgan Paul: or thought process to shake because it's not that I was going in and driving that from my perspective, I was more taking it in of I feel like I can't be myself here in some capacity because I feel like I'm putting on Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: this mask that isn't allowing me to communicate because I'm not able to communicate on this professional level that's molding into the right thing I want to say without blurting it Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Yeah. Morgan Paul: out and sounding like someone who's unprofessional. Rachel Hawley: I know exactly what you're saying. And I I was literally talking to my boss about that this week, just about personality and how I feel like I can be more just blunt or straightforward and but not in a a mean or aggressive way. And it's it's a great point. you kind of you need to dial it back, or you just need to be very conscious of it to understand how other people receive, to risk to be spoken. to or to be engaged Morgan Paul: Mm. Rachel Hawley: with in the corporate setting because yeah something super small that could someone the wrong way and not gonna say that's like the end of your career. It's definitely not like this this sounds like so doomsday, but I totally agree that so much of I feel like success is self-awareness, emotional awareness, no understanding other people's needs. And it's a purely a soft skill that one has to develop. I think success in the corporate setting is, say 50-50 technical, just knowledge and knowing things versus soft skills. it really varies, but it's something that you probably need a lot more than if we were working in maybe more of a clinical setting where it's obviously still being very pleasant, nice, positive, good to work with. But at the end of the day, the tasks are of oftentimes a lot more serious, taking care of pa patients and making sure that, patients are s on safe and efficacious therapy. And you don't necessarily need to dance or beat around the bush or, I don't know. Morgan Paul: Yeah, I d I totally agree. And to go off of that a little bit, I think the other thing that can be super important these are really soft skills, right? that you have the skills of the learning, the skills that like you said, the tactical work, the 50% tactical. But the other side of that is Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: that piece that you need to develop some of these soft skills. And I came in being like, I have a lot of soft skills. I am 80% soft skill. And then I'm like, wait, wait, Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: no, I'm not. So I think the biggest thing is from my perspective, just being open and honest if your preceptor or a mentor that you have will allow that for that space is maybe don't phrase it as like I'm having imposter syndrome because they're gonna want to dive deeper into that. They're gonna be like, What do you think that this means? And I remember having a conversation with my mentor being like, I'm not I feel like I just don't understand the corporate lingo or why this needs to be this way. And some of those things are just again, just growing pains of things you have to just sit back and watch and wait and listen. But I also think but with your mentor, feel free to bring some of those things up because I think sometimes in corporate America we get caught in this cog or a wheel where we're like, this is how it goes and this is how it is. But You as the fellow are somebody that can bring in that bright new perspective. And I don't think it needs Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: to be presented during a leadership meeting, right? Or you shouldn't be speaking out of turn, X, Y, Z, but bringing that to your mentor at least as something you're observing, I think is something super important. Rachel Hawley: Yes, I love that point. it's nerve-wracking to do that early on when you're a fellow, I think, because you're like, Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: well maybe this just is the way that it is. But I think framing questions from a place of curiosity and just asking help me understand or I'm curious, why do we why do we do this this way? Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: I think is a great approach. and it's not coming from a defensive why are we doing this? It's curious. So I think that's a Morgan Paul: Yeah, curiosity. Rachel Hawley: really yeah. I think that was an approach that I took as a fellow and still take just to try to piece everything together in my mind. Cause it's I think there's there's two big things. And I think you've already touched on this when you're transitioning from student to fellow, more so than I would say maybe from student to a clinical job, is that you're Navigating a completely new environment. Like you said, even we both had internships in industry, but different companies, mine was remote. You can only glean so much from that experience. So, on one half, you're just understanding you're trying to grapple with a brand new work environment that you really haven't been in before. And then two, just the work that you're actually doing is also very different than what you've ever done in school. So it's just a bunch of new stuff happening at the exact same time. And you may be in a brand new city surrounded by brand new people. And you're just like, How the heck do I integrate into Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: this? And I remember when I was a first-year fellow, I don't think I had imposter syndrome, but I don't know if I necessarily felt like that so aggressively. And it was because I think I've said this before. It was just because of the way I framed it. I was like, I I'm new to this. I shouldn't feel like a fraud because the I'm doing a fellowship. the goal is to learn and ask questions and develop a skill set. they're not I'm I wasn't hired because I'm an expert in X, Y, and Z. So I didn't necessarily ever feel like an imposter. I think just because I had that self assurance, self-confidence, I knew I was just at peace with what I knew and what I didn't know. And that I just had faith that I would learn along the way and I would get there. But I don't want to dismiss people that do feel that way because I think it's very common. And I'm sure I experienced it to a degree. But I think the things that really helped my cohort was just talking with each other. And sharing those experiences. talking to your precept about it, I think is great too if you feel comfortable and it's I don't think there's anything wrong with letting them know that you may need extra support in that in that way. And then also just talking to someone, maybe completely outside of the environment, whether that be a family member or friend or a therapist, I feel like would be great. That can really help when you're making a big life transition. Morgan Paul: I really enjoyed your point about how you're like, I didn't have imposter syndrome. But you also you came in with the right mindset. And oftentimes I feel like this is easier said than done. But shifting your mindset from I don't know what I'm doing to I'm not supposed to know how this works yet is a Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: super important tool that I think a lot of people struggle with because when Rachel Hawley: Yes. Morgan Paul: you get a fellowship right, you are likely you're a very high achiever, likely an overachiever, and you want to do everything right. Yes. Mm-hmm. You wanna yeah, Rachel Hawley: Yep. You're on your high horse, you're so excited. Yep. You're like, I got this fellowship. And then reality sinks in. Morgan Paul: and you want to do everything right. And you're again, I don't want to be a dead horse, but you're walking into an environment that is completely new to you. So I think Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: that that's If you can shift your mindset to I'm not supposed to know this, but come into it from an angle of I want to know how to, right? Because there's two sides of that coin. You can come in and be like, Well, I'm not supposed to know, so teach me. And that's more of the sarcastic, like whatever. Yeah. Rachel Hawley: Passive, yeah, not taking an active role in your development. Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: Yeah. And then there's the I don't know how to do this. if you show me, then I'll take it and run with it, which I think is something that again is something you don't necessarily learn in pharmacy school because we talk about getting the rubric and we know exactly how to do something. And oftentimes you're just not gonna get that type of guidance. So what in your circumstance, what did you do when that situation came about, right? You had to handle something independently. Cause I think that's a big piece of fellowship and why sometimes people are like, I don't know what I'm doing or I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go with this. And Rachel Hawley: Yeah, yeah. Morgan Paul: students get lost in that. Or fellows, people that start new roles, I sometimes get lost in that. So Rachel Hawley: Yeah, same. One thing that I think was unique to my fellowship that probably isn't the case for most fellows, and I'm gonna come around to the question that you just asked, was that I did not have a second year fellow. and I in hindsight, I think this was really a really valuable thing in that Morgan Paul: Yes. Rachel Hawley: I didn't have like someone close in me co career wise that I could like immediately go to. for support. Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: And I say this because when I was on Appy rotations, I vividly remember getting feedback to just do a little bit more digging or do a little bit more research myself before coming to my preceptor with a question. just Morgan Paul: Yes, yes. Rachel Hawley: try to hunt for the answer a little bit more. And that really, really stuck with me. That was great feedback that I received on appies and it it stuck with me when I started fellowship. And so, not having a first year fellow, I was a fellow and my boss was a senior director. So Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: quite a few degrees of separation between us. He, had a lot of stuff going on. So I knew I cannot come to this person whenever I hit a small roadblock and I don't know what to do next. that's just not valuable for his time. It's not good for my learning. So in those situations, I would just, you know, try to be as innovative. And just hunt for answers. And oftentimes it would lead me to the right place. Or I would figure it out. Or I would get 90% Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: there. And then I would come to him or whoever I was working with on a project and be like, hey, I'm working on this. I've found X, Y, and Z information. I'm trying to figure out what to do next. What would you do in this situation? Or, what do you think would be your next step? 'Cause it shows that you're proactive, you're going to put in the work. And that is something I think talking about interviews last week, a really good thing to showcase is how you take initiative, how you have an active role in completing tasks, or you're just not gonna wait around to be told to do something or be told how to do something is a great Morgan Paul: Yes. Rachel Hawley: skill to showcase. And so then really leaning into that and exercising that muscle early on in fellowship, to just be a problem solver or seek solutions independently is is really important. And that was kind of my approach. And I think not having a second year fellow even more so forced me to do that. Did you say that you also did not have a second year fellow? Or did you? Morgan Paul: Yeah, so since my program was one year, we didn't have one. So I had I had Rachel Hawley: yes. Morgan Paul: the fellow, but we just had weekly check ins of like how things were going. And they were not on my team whatsoever. And Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: so it was mostly just a mentorship from how to get a role, but it wasn't like how to do the daily job for sure. And I cannot echo enough what Rachel said because That is something that I still do, I try and do that every time I have a problem. And I think that carries you and your independence so much further because then you can go to someone, and I think this is also a good piece of advice is you can go to somebody, like Rachel said, with what you have started or the problem you have, with it 60 to 70% baked and be like, I'm Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: at this roadblock, but here's what I've done to get to this point. And I think that's super, super important because it's and it's something you have to learn. You have to be able to put in the own independent work and just literally use the search engine within your company to figure out where things are and if you can't figure it out then Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: then go to somebody. Rachel Hawley: Precisely. And it's and I it still happens today where I'll just go to someone immediately. I can think of an example. I was trying to find an older version of a document and I knew that they were working on it. I should have just literally searched the name of the document in SharePoint and I would have found it right away. And then I'm like, dang it, why did I bother you? They're like, it's fine. Like I should have just searched for Morgan Paul: Yeah. Sometimes the juice Rachel Hawley: it. Morgan Paul: right. Yeah. Sometimes the juice I feel like isn't worth the squeeze. sometimes the juice is not worth the squeeze where it's like, don't wear yourself out looking for this for 45 minutes. But as a fellow, honestly, yeah. Rachel Hawley: True. It's not a good use of your time. Morgan Paul: Honestly, as a fellow, it may be worth your time because then you'll realize what Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: things are worth asking someone for and what things are not worth. digging around for hours for Rachel Hawley: Yeah. It's good advice. I agree. I wanna somewhat I wanna just take a double click on to if you are in a two year fellowship and have a a second year fellow or if you are that second year fellow, how I don't know, how to support one another or what that, you know, dynamic could look like. Cause Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: I think it's important if you have overlapping fellowships, The second year fellow shouldn't serve as the preceptor, you know? And I think this is something that I I hear come up oftentimes is that in some ways it's nice. It's like, okay, there is somebody who's a very close degree away from me that I can go to with questions and support. But I think as the first year fellow, it can be easy to fall on them as a crutch and I think that hinders one's learning and development. And then I think if you're a second year fellow, work with your first year, you could also really stunt their growth or hinder their growth. Morgan Paul: Probably. Rachel Hawley: so I think just being cognizant of that is important. And I remember when I was a second year fellow and my first year's Eva. Love her. Eva, if you're listening, you can tell me if I'm If I'm wrong in any of this, but I really tried to enable an environment where she was getting new experiences, new work, Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: higher profile projects. I wanted her to have those opportunities and not I don't want to say take them for myself, but I was like, First year learned a ton, experienced a ton. I want to make Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: sure that that is the same experience that she has. Because I do think when you have overlapping fellows, it can be somewhat easier to give the more seasoned, experienced fellow more difficult work or more high profile projects just because they have somewhat done it before, they're familiar. but I think if you're a second year fellow, offloading some of those projects giving your first year those opportunities and then, supporting them if they have questions, but enabling their growth instead of potentially stunting it is is important. And again, you're not their preceptor. So just trying to maintain a healthy boundary and dynamic. that's my hope. Yeah. Morgan Paul: Absolutely. I had a fellow on our direct team. So I technically was similar to the second year fellow, but Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: they did report to one of our directors. So I I was more of the easy button of like here's if you have a question, you can just ask me. And I think one piece of advice that I would drive home for those of you who are first year fellows and want to use the second year fellow as a crutch, I think that's fine within certain spaces. But as you Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: grow and develop, just when you cause that skill we've been talking about of baking something to 60% or trying to figure it out yourself is something that is going to come along the way. But I would really caution all first year fellows To really try and hone in to listen to what's happening, oftentimes I feel like you can use that second year fellow, like I said, as an easy button. And then you're like, I don't really know how to do this. I don't need to remember how to do it because the second year fellow knows how to do it or someone else does. And I fell into that trap because I had a really good director that worked in the office next to me. But I Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: wish I would have grabbed onto this skill. quicker. And so I think I would caution first year fellows, ask a question once, learn how to do it. And then if you don't understand it the second time, hopefully you understand eighty percent of it. Okay. Let's see here. Rachel Hawley: I wanna talk a little bit about, this is the other sixteen hours, so Morgan Paul: Yes. Rachel Hawley: when we were transitioning to fellowship or, you know, starting as fellows or, you know, starting a new job, just how we balanced that with life outside of work. so one thing that I realized when I was a when I was starting in industry was that people think that people in industry or corporate settings have strong work-life balance because Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: you can I don't know there's maybe a flexibility in your schedules depending on when you're having meetings or if you're traveling for work. There's some weeks that are busier than others versus if you're in a clinical setting, you know, it's more strict and you're need to be in this space for X number of hours or maybe you're working Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: evenings, weekends, whatever. but I've I think when your work is always with you, when your laptop is always with you or your phone is always with you, it is really easy to just not stop working. And I remember feeling like this when I was a fellow, like there's no shortage of stuff that needs to be done. when do you pull the plug and when are you like, okay, I'm gonna log off for the day because it can be very, very easy to just stay up late and then you have absolutely zero boundary versus if you're I guess it's true for I talk myself off off of everything I guess it's true for residency too because you could you're in the hospital but then you go home and then you're you're maybe you're prepping patients while you're home or you're prepping for a topic discussion. So the work never stops. So I think it applies for everybody, but just how to set those boundaries, especially when you are so early on in your Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: in your career. Morgan Paul: I have a really good example of this, not from me in particular, but from a fellow that was at our company. We had a social event, but they had a presentation the next day. And it's rather than going to the social event for 30 minutes to an hour to go and network. They decided Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: to stay home and practice their presentation. And while I think both are valuable, I think the this isn't necessarily work-life balance, but I do think it is in a sense that when you're at a corporate environment, this obviously doesn't apply as much to residents I'm not that I'm aware of, but you have to go to these events that are outside of work hours to network and to just be with your coworkers. from a corporate standpoint, especially in as a fellow, to get to know these people. And I think I think the content obviously that you're doing is super important. And you obviously have to put your job at the forefront. But networking is part of your role. And so I think that is also part of work life balance when it comes to this is sometimes you have to go to these events that you don't necessarily want to or You may spend all day in Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: a meeting and you may have to work out of outside hours, but still make time for that networking piece. Don't let that go to the wayside just because you're concerned about a presentation that will likely not change the outcome if you spent if you leave thirty to an hour thirty minutes to an hour for networking. Rachel Hawley: Yeah, I like that example. the presentation is likely gonna be the same whether Morgan Paul: Mm. Rachel Hawley: whether or not you spend the a couple of extra time prepping for it. And you know, potentially the people that you're networking with that night are going to be the ones in the audience of the presentation and they they learn something new about you or I don't know, you start to build some what's the what's the term? I don't know, you start to build some connection. Morgan Paul: You start to build relationships, yeah, or connection. And again, with the presentation, I I really liked that point that you brought up. It's probably gonna be the same. And I think one thing as fellows that at least I wasn't always comfortable with, would love to hear your thoughts as well. But I wasn't Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: always comfortable with being like, I'm not sure of the answer, like let me get back to you. I wanted to know the answer. And I still Rachel Hawley: Mm. Morgan Paul: feel that that's something I want to do, but I've gotten a lot more comfortable with being like, I'm not sure. Let me get back to you. And know that that is an appropriate answer. And you don't need to know the answer Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: to everything. And so I think that's what roadblock this particular fellow got caught up in is knowing the answer to absolutely everything on an internal call versus Rachel Hawley: mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: going to network and further their career. Rachel Hawley: Yep. Yeah. I think that's a great example of how to balance things. Both professionally and and personally. And I think that's just great advice too. especially if you're in a fellowship that is headquarters based or you're in person, Morgan Paul: Hear you. Rachel Hawley: going to the events, especially as a fellow, are so valuable. our company does a great job. We have parties for literally every holiday. and we have different employee resource groups that are focused Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: on being a woman in the workplace or we have an LGBTQ group. Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: we have one for veterans and anybody can join these things and anyone can go to their events. Just a great way to meet people. So I think as a fellow too, going to those events and just striking up conversation is, so important. It doesn't You need to expand your network and horizon beyond your immediate team, beyond your immediate functional area. Not only because you'll never know who you meet and it could be a great connection, but it'll also just help you really understand the company so much more and what different teams are working on, what Morgan Paul: Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: their priorities are, just how everything works together. So yeah, if there are different company events that happen, you're like, I'm tired, like I don't want to go to a networking thing or this little. work party that's happening afterwards, but just forcing yourself to stay a little bit longer. you never know who you could talk to, who you could be introduced to. And yeah, people love if you say like, I'm a fellow, they're gonna be like, what is that? or they're they're gonna be curious. Morgan Paul: Yeah, yes. Rachel Hawley: so it's a fun card to play. And if you are introverted, here's your opportunity to practice being a little bit more your Morgan Paul: Your soft skills. Yep. Rachel Hawley: soft skills and for putting yourself in an uncomfortable environment. Because yeah, it'll it'll only help you. Morgan Paul: Okay. I love that. what advice I know I kind of went off on a tangent with an example, but what advice would you give to current fellows about kind of protecting their personal time or what how they maintained life out of fellowship? Rachel Hawley: I think it's super important still to have that time for yourself to recharge in every in w in whatever way that is. And I think it is really admirable when people have those boundaries set. Like people will respect you for it. So Morgan Paul: Mm. Rachel Hawley: if that is exercise, prior if it's one hour of the day or it's a 30 minute run or something, it's a very small amount in the grand scheme of things. So prioritizing that because it'll just make you a better person Morgan Paul: Mm. Rachel Hawley: in the workplace. it'll, you know, help with stress. It oftentimes you can either block out your mind and not think about anything, or maybe you think very creatively when you're doing something personal for yourself, whether that be exercise, whether that be reading working or doing some sort of hobby, it's really important to maintain that as well. And I think so many people in the corporate world or not even corporate world, just more seasoned in their career, they're obviously doing that. they have their own hobbies or they're taking care of their family. so I think it's important to obviously work really hard and put in extra time. But then also Save some time for yourself and continue to invest in your own well being while you're in those early stages of your career. It's a balance like everything. But it at the end of the day, it just makes Morgan Paul: Yeah. And I think Rachel Hawley: you best. Morgan Paul: I was saying before we actually started recording this episode that I don't necessarily think, and maybe this is just a silly joke, but I don't necessarily think that imposter syndrome goes away. I think everybody in the Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: workplace has it at some point. And if you don't Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Morgan Paul: I think you should have it in some capacity. there is always something that you shouldn't know or want to learn. And I think that's again a mindset shift you have to have about where you want to go with your career, right? Because we both recently switched roles. And Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: I wouldn't say I have imposter syndrome, but it's imposter syndrome thoughts. Right, because I'm like, I know I'm supposed to be here. This is my new role. I just don't necessarily know as much as the person next to me and or my coworker, but I'm not supposed to be there yet. And I would love to hear your thoughts, right? You switched from a one role to kind of a different trajectory versus I went in house to field but same area. Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Yeah, you were staying within the same functional area versus I made a double pivot going from being field based to headquarters based and going from being part of the medical organization to the commercial marketing organization. And I I feel the same way as I think you did a really good job capturing it, fellowship impot or fellowship imposter syndrome light. And that I don't know. Things and I'm at peace with that. I know I should not know things like. And they and and I think a big part of it is the people that hired you. It's not it's not like you were faking them out, my God, yes, I know X, Y, and Z and I'm an expert in this already. And now I'm like, my Morgan Paul: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Rachel Hawley: God, I just completely lied to them and they're gonna I'm gonna become e exposed and people are gonna realize that I'm a fraud. that's not the case at all. Morgan Paul: No. Rachel Hawley: very much honest with what I know and what I don't know. And I think in both of our situations, we got hired for these New positions because of our past experiences, and that's something that can be leveraged. And because we have the capacity to learn and grow and think innovatively, and that's what they wanted to bring to the team. And just having that mindset is like, I'm not supposed to know everything, and I'm here for a reason. And I do sometimes still start comparing myself. how do I not know how this is? And then I'm like, looking to the person next to you and they've doing this for six years. I've been here for six months. Morgan Paul: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rachel Hawley: I'm like earth to racial reality check. Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: And then I'm like, yeah, and it's fine. And people love being helpful. So asking questions Morgan Paul: Yeah. Rachel Hawley: and stuff. Yeah, they like that. Morgan Paul: People like being helpful. And I think that this is again translatable back to being a fellow. It's when or if you transition to a new role in particular, you can take these things and you can experience different levels of imposter syndrome throughout the spectrum. And so I think that brings us kind of to our closing point is it's okay to have imposter syndrome. It's what you do about the imposter syndrome that really matters. Rachel Hawley: Yeah. I thought our closing point was gonna be imposter syndrome is a chronic disease and you will never cure it. Morgan Paul: it could also be that an imposter situation is Rachel Hawley: No. Morgan Paul: a chronic disease and there's no medication to cure it. Rachel Hawley: You just learn to live with it. It there is truth in that, in that it'll never go away. And it's not I don't think it's a bad thing. Because I think if you are feeling that way, it means that you care and it means you want to do a good job. And you just learn to navigate it. I feel like everyone experiences to a different degree, but it's it's what you do with it. you can't let it consume you. what I think your your take on the closing thought was a lot better than me being like, You're gonna exp you're gonna feel this forever and there's no hope for your for humanity. Morgan Paul: No, I think I I think that was good. we said, it's a chronic disease, it's never gonna go away. As us pharmacy nerds, we have to make an analogy of something. And your first year is supposed to Rachel Hawley: Yeah. Just want to live with it. Morgan Paul: be that learning experience, and it's okay to feel it. Again, it's just what you do with that information. And that's I think translatable Rachel Hawley: Exactly. Morgan Paul: across all sorts of things and Rachel Hawley: It gets better with Morgan Paul: You Rachel Hawley: time, it gets easier with time, you learn how to manage it. And no, the feelings will go away, or you'll just get more at peace, more confident, stronger understanding as time goes on. So just know that it it's very normal. It happened it can happen at any stage of one's career. And the best thing I feel like you can oftentimes do is just talk about it and figure out what types of strategies work to to manage it best. Morgan Paul: Yeah. And we we obviously hope this episode is helpful. And so if it is helpful, leave us a five star rating. Maybe drop a comment about what you liked about it. And Rachel Hawley: Mm-hmm. Morgan Paul: we will see you all in the next episode. Rachel Hawley: Let us know if you have any ideas. Thanks for spending some of your other 16 hours with us. Bye.