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A Good Circle · Revisionist History

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Matt Skogan was working on Wall Street eighty hours a week,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: making good money, happily married a small town boy from Michigan,
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: made good. When he began to have a change of heart.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: I went through a period of my life, a mini
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: existential crisis. My dad died in twenty thirteen. He had
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: a cancer called multiple maloma. He was only sixty and
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: then just two years after that, my mom passed away
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: from a different kind of cancer. She had breast cancer.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: And it kind of sent me into a period of
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: life where I just felt like, I love my work.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: It's interesting, it's intellectually stimulating, I love the people through
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: my work. But I also felt this sense of like,
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: I'm at the end of the day, I'm showing up
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: to work every day to help a bank make more money.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: I went through a season of pretty intense like prayer
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: and discernment and just kind of feeling like I think
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: I'm supposed doing something else.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Scogan was on the board of the small Christian liberal
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: arts school he'd gone to as an undergraduate, a place
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: called Hope College on the shores of Lake Michigan, and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: just as his life was turning upside down, the school's
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: president announced he was leaving. Scogan says that when he
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: heard the news, he had an intense feeling that this
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: was a job he was supposed to do. He thought
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: of the Mark Twain quote, the two most important days
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: in your life are the day you're born and the
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: day you find out why. Scogan had no academic experience.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: He was a ridiculous long shot, but slowly he inched
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: forward in the process, and as he did, he realized
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: that if it was actually going to happen, if he
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: were really going to be the president of a college,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: he couldn't do what every other president was doing.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I had a couple of pretty formative experiences. There was
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: a moment when I was on an airplane on a
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: business trip and I was flying back to New York
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: from California, I think, and we were flying into JFK,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: and I'm like half asleep on the airplane, and the
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: pilot comes on and he says, we're at thirty three
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: thousand feet and we're beginning our descent into JFK. Thirty
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: three thousand at the time was the price of Hope's tuition,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: And I just got this visual image in my head
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: of thirty three thousand going to zero. And then it
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: was three weeks later and I was having dinner with
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: a friend and we were just talking about life, and
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I told him that I was thinking about applying for
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: this job, and he asked me about home college, and
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: he asked me about what I saw is the challenges
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: in higher ed and I've of course mentioned the cost,
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: and he just very flippantly and without thinking, he said, well,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: no one should have to pay for hope. And then
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: he repeated it, no one should have to pay for hope,
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: and he meant it as a joke, I think, and
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: we both laughed. But as I was laughing, like I realized, dang,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: he just said something profoundly true. No one should have
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: to pay for hope.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to U Revisionist History,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. Over the years,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: on this podcast, we have talked about the strange goings
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: on in higher education, ridiculously fancy amenities, the elsat the absurd,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: US news rankings, multi billion dollar endowments. This episode is
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: about a very different kind of strange goings on, Matt
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Skuggan's radical experiment Nobody should have to pay for Hope.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Hope is in a little town called Holland, just west
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: of Grand Rapids, which is called Holland because Dutch immigrants
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: settled there. The area still has a lot of tidy
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Dutch practicality. The big local employers are the furniture makers
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Herman Miller and Haworth. The campus is right in the
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: middle of town, a big, beautiful church at the center.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: I got a campus tour from a towering Nigerian student
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: with the magnificently Nigerian first name of Mark Marvelous. I
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: sat in a campus coffee shop listening to a high
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: spirited back and forth that began with the movies and
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: ended with scripture. The school was having a day long
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: conference to explain to the community what they were trying
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: to do. A student spoke first, a young woman named Madison,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: a little nervous in front of the crowd. She'd made
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: some of the art hanging on the.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Walls around the room.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Hi.
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: Everyone, good evening and thank you for attending what I
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: believe is a wonderful artistic representation of Hope Forward as
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: not only a vision but a reality. My name is
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: Madison and I have the honor of belonging to the
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: inaugural Hope Forward cohort.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Hope Forward was the name Skogan gave to his experiment.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Madison had made a print of a willow tree that
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: she said symbolized what the school had done for her.
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: Because of this gift, I feel free to pursue any
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: area of study without the burden excessive debt. This means
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: I am free to care about my community here and
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: later because I am and will be passionate about what
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Then the writer Mitch album came to the podium. Album
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: was actually the reason I was there. He emailed me
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: out of the blue one day and told me about
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: what was happening in Holland. He drove over from Detroit,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: where he lives, and kicked things off with a short
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: talk about why he's a Hope College believer.
• 5:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess I'm here in multiple capacities. I'm sort
• 5:40
  Speaker 6: of like a parent and proud to be And I'm
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: going to share with you for a couple of minutes
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: how that came to be and why I do believe
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: that this model works because I have seen it in
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: action many times in my life, and in fact, the
• 5:55
  Speaker 6: latter part of my professional life has kind of been
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: dedicated to this.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: The model he was referring to was President Scogan's hope forward,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: his grand experiment.
• 6:06
  Speaker 6: So honestly not been that charitable a person in the
• 6:14
  Speaker 6: first part of my career, not because I was against it.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I think I was just like many young people.
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: I was very wrapped up in my own success, of
• 6:21
  Speaker 6: my own ambition, and then I got involved with some
• 6:24
  Speaker 6: of you were probably aware with an old professor of
• 6:27
  Speaker 6: mine who was dying from lu Gerrig's disease named Mary Schwartz,
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: and I visited with him every Tuesday.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Tuesdays with Maury was album's most famous book. It came
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: out in nineteen ninety seven. It's one of the best
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: selling memoirs of all time.
• 6:42
  Speaker 6: I noticed that when people would come in and visit
• 6:45
  Speaker 6: with him, very quickly the conversation would change. They would
• 6:49
  Speaker 6: come in trying to cheer him up because he was
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: dying from this terminal illness, but within a couple of
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: minutes he would start asking them about their work, their
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: love life, whatever, And an hour later they'd come out
• 7:01
  Speaker 6: in tears and they'd say, you know, I try to
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: cheer him up, but next thing I know, I'm talking
• 7:04
  Speaker 6: to him, and he's asked me questions, and then he's
• 7:06
  Speaker 6: really asking me questions, and I'm really then and as
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: I'm I'm crying, I.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Tried to cheer him up. He ended up cheering me up.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: He ended up comforting me.
• 7:13
  Speaker 6: And I asked him finally, after witnessing this so many times,
• 7:16
  Speaker 6: I don't get it. You know, like you're the one
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: who's dying. Why don't you just say, let's not talk
• 7:22
  Speaker 6: about your problems, Let's talk about my problems. And he said, Mitch,
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: why would I ever take from people like that? Taking
• 7:30
  Speaker 6: just makes me feel like I'm dying. Giving makes me
• 7:34
  Speaker 6: feel like I'm living. It's a profound little sentence and
• 7:40
  Speaker 6: also rhymes, so it's easy to remember. Giving makes you
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: feel like living. And I have never forgotten that moment,
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: nor have I ever forgotten that sentiment.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: A small Christian college, a student talking about a willow tree.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: A best selling writer of inspirational books, introduces the rhyming
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: catchphrase giving makes you feel like living. If the cynic
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: in you is bubbling to the surface right now, I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: understand because these aren't the kinds of things we expect
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: to hear on college campuses. What about the fancy new
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: building opening, the expansion of the endowed prestigious center for
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: this and that, the glittering credentials of the incoming class.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: But by the end of the evening I kind of
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: wished every school sounded like this. Imagine that you had
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: never heard of higher education before, you had been living
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: on a desert island somewhere, and suddenly, once you finished
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: desert island high school, your parents decided what you needed
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: was an American college degree. So you show up on
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: this thing called a campus and you ask your hosts
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: what am I to you, and they say, we think
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: of you as a student kind of, but also as
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: a customer, because this whole thing is going to cost
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: you a lot of money, and we need to get paid.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: How much you ask, well, it depends like whether you're
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: good at things like fencing or rowing and how much
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: your parents make. But chances are you'll have to borrow
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: a lot to pay for your education. So you say, oh,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: so I'm really like someone with a big mortgage. I'm
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: a debtor, and they say sure, but once you've graduated,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: we're going to call you every year to ask for
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: donations on the grounds that you are now a member
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: of our community. Your head is spinning at this point.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Oh really, what are those donations for. Well, it's for
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: this thing we invented called an endowment, which is a
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: big pile of cash that sits with a money manager
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: in New York, which we use as a symbol of
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: how important we are. So you say, wait, I'm a student,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: a customer, a debtor, and an investor in a Wall
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Street hedge fund. Are all businesses in the United States?
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: This complicated? And they say, no, just higher education. This
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: arrangement struck Matt Skogan as deeply weird. He was a banker.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: He came from a world where financial arrangements had precise
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: definitions gross sales, net revenue, IBITA earnings before interest, taxes,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and amortization. He was an outsider to this world. He
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: didn't think like a college president. He doesn't even look
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: like a college president. He was thirty nine when he
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: was hired, but looks even younger. I'm short and skinny.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: He's shorter and skinnier. He has red hair and oversized
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: ears and looks and this reference would be lost to
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: all of you under the age of fifty A little
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: like Ron Howard in Happy Days Later when we were
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: chatting with a group of students. I asked what they
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: call him.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: The summer I got here, I started saying, you should
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: call me Matt because my name is Matt. And then
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: there was like an intervention. The dean of students came
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: and a couple other people came into my office and
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: they said, you can't have the students call you by
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: your first name. It's disrespectful to the office of the president.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: So I said, okay, so they call me presidents go
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: again to my face, they call me who knows what
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: they call me? Yes, daddies, Yeah, daddy, Sco.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Again, Sco daddy.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of Sco daddies in the ranks
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: of America's college presidents. When they picked you, was there
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: a sense that they were taking a chance.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, there was definitely, since they were doing something unconventional,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: so they were hiring a young non academic, But it
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: was coming from this premise of the board wanted to,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: you know, a recognition that something needs to be done
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: in higher education. We need to try something different, and
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: so they hired me and basically said you can do
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: anything you want except the status quo, Like we're hiring
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: you to do something different.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: He took the job, moved into a big house near
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: the church in the middle of campus, and started going
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: to the cafeteria and talking to students student, customer, debtor,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: investor what effect he wondered did this have on them?
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: And I have a handful of questions that I love
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: asking students. I like asking the same questions over and
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: over again because I get compare and contrast answers. And
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: one of the questions I always ask is what do
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: you want.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: To do after you graduate? And I always use the word.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Want, And what I get often as a response is
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: what I want to do is different than what I
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: feel like I have to do. And I'll get students
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: say I want to do Doctors without Borders, or I
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: want to do teach for America or the Peace Corps
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: or some ministry. But I've got fifty thousand dollars of
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: student loan debt, so I'm going to become a whatever
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: consultant to pay off my student loan debt, and then
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: I'll pursue the impact I feel like I want to have.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: It seemed to Scogan that you can't do both. You
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: can't ask a student to engage in the pursuit of
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: truth and at the same time have them wake up
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the night with a sense of dread.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Hope has an accounting program, and Scogan was a big
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: fan of accounting, but he felt the way things were
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: accounting would always win out over philosophy, which didn't seem right.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I actually think.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Students don't come to college with a life plan. They
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: come to college with questions, lots and lots of questions
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: about their purpose. And it might be the case that
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: studying philosophy or studying the classics is precisely how you're
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: going to find your purpose. And yet if you're coming
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: with fifty thousand dollars of debt, you might get skewed
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: into or you might get you might feel nudge into
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: studying accounting, and therefore maybe miss maybe miss something that's
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: in your purpose.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, back to your college search. After Desert Island High,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: you come to America, and what you discover on your
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: college tour is how strangely similar a lot of colleges are.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: William's College looks like Amherst, which in turn looks like
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: William and Mary, which looks like a smaller version of
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: the University of Virginia. Everybody wants to be the same thing,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: the same look, and the same business model, find as
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: many full paying students as they can and charge you
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: as much tuition as they can get away with. Why
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: are all the colleges the same? My dad taught at
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: the University of Waterloo in southern Ontario, and they had
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: what they called a co op program, with a college
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: arranged with local employers to hire students join their off term.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Everybody was on co op. To give you a flavor
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: of how it works, I asked a student named Spencer
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: who just graduated from Waterloo to give me a break
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: down of his finances. This is what Spencer told me.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Total for year costs tuition plus room and board were
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: a hundred and twenty two thousand dollars. In that time,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: he did six co op terms working with a government
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: organization and several firms in his field, and they paid
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: him a total of eighty one thousand dollars. So his
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: overall cost out of pocket for getting an engineering degree
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: was forty thousand. That's not bad. Plus, and I'm quoting
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: here from his email, I'll add that a good thing
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: is that the majority of my classmates were graduating with
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: a job lined up due to the co op program
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: and industry connections. Now, do I think co op programs
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: could work everywhere and solve every problem? No, of course not.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: But the University of Waterloo has been running this program
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: for almost seventy years. It's a huge success. You would think,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: wouldn't you that versions of the idea would have spread
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: everywhere by now that every school that has a problem
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: with students graduating with lots of debt, which by the
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: way is nearly every school would have experimented with ways
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: of connecting with local businesses to give their students work
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: experience enlighten their debt burden. Has it happened?
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: No?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Why Because college presidents have their heads in the clouds.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: If you kind of look at the trajectory of higher education,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: it's just not going to end well. This trajectory of
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: like tuition goes up by three to five percent every year,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: it's just not going to work. And so this sense
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: of like somebody has to do something at the end
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: of the day. The thing I love most about this
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: place is our name Hope. Hope by definition means that
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: we believe problems are solvable, and that's what we try
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: to prepare our students to be Hope bringers, people who
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: go out in the world and run toward not a way,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: but run toward the biggest challenges they can find. And
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: that's why we exist. And we felt like and the
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: board felt like, who better than a place called Hope
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: to run toward this big societal challenge which is the
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: funding model of higher education.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: So Scogan made a radical decision, Let's make it so
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: students don't have to think about money at all during
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: their four years of college and put in place a
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: pay it forward model. Will you give back to the
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: college after you've graduated. That's the program that Scogan calls
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Hope Forward. To apply, you write an essay describing an
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: area of hopelessness to which you want to bring hope.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: They started small. After the first two years they have
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: a total of fifty eight students in the program. The
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: goal is to enroll one hundred freshmen annually within the
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: next few years and keep the program growing until it
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: covers everyone.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: And you don't pay anything. You don't pay anything for tuition.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Sign We call it a covenant. It's basically a commitment.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I sign it on behalf of the college and then
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: the student signs it, So we're entering into this sort
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: of covenantal relationship, not a transactional agreement. It's not a contract,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: it's not a legal contract, but it's this relationship with
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: mutual commitment. And the commitment we're making as an institution
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: is we're saying we're going to give you a great
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: education and then launch you into a life of impact afterwards.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: And the commitment the student is making is they're going
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: to take their education seriously and then they're going to
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: give something to the college every year after they graduate.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: We don't specify an amount, we don't suggest an amount,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: nothing like that, because we want it to truly be
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: a gift, a gift that's given out of generosity, and
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: we don't want it to feel like it's a different
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: flavor of a student loan bill. Like we're trying to
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: move away from a system that's based on bill paying
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: and replace it with a system that's based on gift giving,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: so that the relationship with students is not a transactional
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: one at all, but rather a relationship based at its
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: core around generosity and gratitude.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: The math behind it pay it Forward system is, to
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: say the least daunting. Problem Number one is the transition period.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: A school like Hope takes in about fifty five million
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: dollars intuition. If you say to your students, don't pay
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: anything until later, then you have to come up with
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: fifty five million dollars every year until the pay it
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: forward money comes trickling in. If Hope Forward covered everyone,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: the school would need about a billion dollars to handle
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: that transition period. Problem number two is what happens after
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: the transition period. How do you know that Hope Forward
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: graduates will give back an amount equal to the cost
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: of their education? Scogan freely admits he doesn't.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Some may give far less than that, some may give
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: way more than that. I think that's another reason why
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: we decided to not put a specific amount on it.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: If we say you've made a commitment to give, and
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: we suggest this amount in order to pay off what
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: you would have paid through tuition, well then people give
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: that amount, presumably. But by not putting an amount, some
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: people may give way more than they would have paid
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: through tuition, and others will give less. And I think
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: what this model does is it gives us as an institution,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: we're highly incentivized to help our students be successful. The
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: more successful they are, the more opportunities they'll have to give.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: And likewise, for our students, you know, it's kind of
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: like the onus is on them when they're in their
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: earnings years. Then it's up to them to determine how
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: important their education was in launching them into their career,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: and they're sort of then paying them what they think
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: this was worth. And it's you know, I think it's
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: up to us then to make the education so valuable
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: that they're grateful for it after they graduate.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: You are stealing into the unknown.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Oh totally.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Is Matt Skogan crazy? Maybe, But I have to say
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that I'm an optimist on Hope Forward. First, I think
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: that Scogan is right that the success of the program
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: depends on the school convincing its graduates that their education
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: was worth something. Although it's early, the evidence so far
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: is encouraging. The students admitted into Hope Forward as a
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: group have slightly lower academic credentials coming into the school
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: than the rest of their freshman class, but after their
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: first year they're outperforming their non Hope Forward peers. There's
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: something different about your attitude towards school once you're inside
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the gratitude generosity loop. Second thing, most of the students
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: at Hope grew up in the church, and this is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: how a church works, right. You don't pay church tuition
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: at the door. Sometimes churches encourage you to tithe a
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: tenth of your income, but most times you just give
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: whatever you can and the congregation and the preacher trust
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: in God that whatever comes in from the offering on
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Sunday morning will cover the expenses for the rest of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: the week.
• 20:54
  Speaker 8: I remember one of the things that presidents going inside
• 20:57
  Speaker 8: was that we're trying to fund higher education than way
• 21:00
  Speaker 8: that we fund churches, which is through craft funding, And
• 21:04
  Speaker 8: I felt like that metaphor helps it make a lot
• 21:08
  Speaker 8: more sense to me.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I met with a group of Hope Forward students at
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: one point. This was a sophomore named Olivia. Pay it
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Forward made sense to her conceptually, the.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: Maybea the church is like you give what you can
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: when you can, and you give because you want to
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: and because you believe in the mission of the church.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: And I feel like that's a really great metaphor that
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: helps me understand like what we're doing here and want
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: a purpose of it is. So it's the same idea.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Madison was part of the group too, the same Madison
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: who spoke with the Mitch album reception.
• 21:44
  Speaker 9: I feel like, once you're given someone's generous towards you,
• 21:48
  Speaker 9: it is so much easier to be generous towards others.
• 21:51
  Speaker 9: And that's also how I think of God's love. When
• 21:54
  Speaker 9: I experienced God's love through other people, it's so much
• 21:57
  Speaker 9: easier for me to share that love, like with some
• 22:00
  Speaker 9: other people, with other people. And I just feel like
• 22:04
  Speaker 9: it's the whole thing. Is can be that it's meant
• 22:07
  Speaker 9: to be contagious, So generosity is easier when someone has
• 22:12
  Speaker 9: shown generosity towards you.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Third thing, and maybe the most important thing, Why do
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: we assume that giving out of the spirit of giving
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: is hard? This is a little bit of a tangent,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: but those of you who are regular listeners to revisionist
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: history will know the special antipathy I have for Princeton University,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: a school with eight thousand, four hundred and seventy eight
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: students and an endowment of thirty six billion dollars. Princeton's
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: endowment is so large that in nine of the last
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: eleven years, its investment earnings had been greater than its
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: entire operating budget to give you a flavor of this,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: and forgive me because this gets me so riled up.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, Princeton made a three point seven
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: to seven billion dollar return on its endowment, but the
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: school's annual budget was just under two billion, meaning they
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: could cover all their expenses just on the check they
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: get at the end of the year from their wealth
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: managers on Wall Street and still have two billion dollars left.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: In the previous episode, I handed out the first of
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: the Revisionist History Prizes, which honor extraordinary performances by elite
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: college administrators. The inaugural prize was the George Santo's Memorial
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Award for Egregiously Deceptive sell Promotion, which went to Columbia
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: for their brazen manipulation of their US News rankings. Well,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I have yet another prize to award, the Perpetual Motion
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Award for the school that comes closest to running on
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: its own power forever, and the clear winner here is Princeton.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I did a little blog post about this, and let
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: me quote from myself here. Princeton could let in every
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: student for free. The university administrators could tell the US
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: government and all of its funding agencies. It's cool, we
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: got this. They could take out the cash registers in
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: the cafeteria, hand out free parking to all visitors, give
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: away Princeton sweatshirts on Nassau Street, and fire their entire
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: accounts receivable staff, and their entire fundraising staff. Tomorrow, they
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: could say to every one of the hard working professors
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: on their staff, you never have to spend even a
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: second writing a grand proposal. Again, free at last, Free
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: at last. But here's the thing. Even though by any
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: rational measure, Princeton no longer needs to raise any more money,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: the alumnia of Princeton still give money to Princeton. A
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: higher percentage of Princeton graduates give money back to their
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: school than any school in the country. A Wall Street
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: guy named James Ya, in fact, just gave Princeton so
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: many millions of dollars that Princeton opened a brand new
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: residence hall called, wait for it, Yay College.
• 25:09
  Speaker 10: Yay College will help advance the expansion of the student
• 25:12
  Speaker 10: body so that additional high achieving students will realize the
• 25:16
  Speaker 10: benefits of a Princeton education, enhance the diversity and vitality
• 25:20
  Speaker 10: of our campus, and go on to contribute to society
• 25:23
  Speaker 10: after graduation.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: This is complete gibberish. The sense of community that a
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: college gives to its students has nothing to do with
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: the architectural design of the dorms. This is the way
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: the Four Seasons talks about a new hotel. But here's
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the thing. Mister Yea, a very very smart man who
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: graduated with a physics degree from Princeton and went on
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: to make many, many billions on Wall Street, believes it
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: to be true. So true in fact, that he got
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: into his Bentley, loaded up the trunk with coals and
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: drove them down I ninety five to Newcastle. And if
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: you don't understand that reference, may I refer you to
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: mister Google. My point is, we have plenty of evidence
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: that smart people will give huge amounts of money to
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: their alma maters for the stupidest of reasons. Why do
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: we find it hard to believe smart people will give
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: small amounts of money to their alma maters.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: For the best of reasons.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Or, to put it a little more charitably, maybe Mitchabolm
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: was right. Giving makes you feel like living. Matt Skogan
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: was sitting in on my meeting with the students he
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: didn't speak until the very end.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: There's this Lylan Matthew whit says, freely you have received,
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: not freely give. And this is where I think there's
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: this crazy sense in higher education where most people know
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: that not everyone has access to a great education, but
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: there's this sense in which it must be the case
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: that ultimately those who do get access to a great
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: education somehow deserve it, like this meritocracy. And it just
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: feels like that's like meritocracy gone totally off the rails.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: At the end of the day, a Christian does believe
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: that anyone deserves a good life, like if we really
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: got what we deserve, we'd all be s crude. A
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Christian believes that anything we have that's good is a
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: gift of unmerited favorite from God. And I think what
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: you're hearing from these students is like this profound sense
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: of we're ready to just live into that. I heard
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: somebody once to describe generosity as this mindset of circulation,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: like you take a book out of the library and
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: you know it's not yours. You're just going to read
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: the book, and then you're going to give it back
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: to the library so that somebody else could read it,
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the way a Christian ought to
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: think about everything we have, everything we own, like God
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: gave us stuff just so that we could circulate it.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: When God God blesses Abraham and the Old Testament, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: he says very clearly why he blesses Abraham. He says,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: I've blessed you so that you can be a blessing.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the way Christians out of you.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Everything we have, like everything we have is this unmerited gift,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: and then we're just gonna radically give it to the
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: world so that we can be a blessing with the
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: ways we've been blessed. And I'm putting words in your mouth,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: but I feel like I heard that from your stories
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: in a pretty powerful way. You guys are amazing.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: Thanks.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Here.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: By way of contrast, is a passage in the commencement
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: speech of the President of Harvard Jue Faust in twenty eighteen.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: She has the entire graduating class in front of her.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Her goal is to give them words to inspire them
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: on their journey into the greater world, and then she
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: starts listing the unprecedented headwinds at Harvard. The institution had faced.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: As it sought to educate the very best and the brightest.
• 28:40
  Speaker 7: We have faced a political and policy environment increasingly hostile
• 28:45
  Speaker 7: to expertise and skeptical about higher education. The unprecedented endowment
• 28:52
  Speaker 7: tax passed last December. Will we estimate impose on us
• 28:57
  Speaker 7: elevee next year equivalent to two thousand dollars per student?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Holy Toledo, they have dared to tax our fifty six
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: billion dollar endownment. I don't know under the circumstances. I'd
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: rather ride with Skodaddy. I want to play for you.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: The end of Mitch Album's speech at the Hope College reception.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: He stood at the front of the room, slight and unprepossessing,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: big head of black hair, casually dressed. People are standing
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: and milling around and eating canopies. And he starts to
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: talk about how this whole idea of giving makes you
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: feel like living, taught to him by Maurice Schwartz, slowly
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: took over his life. He started a scholarship fund that
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: grew and grew, then a charity to work with the homeless,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: and then finally the project that has occupied him ever since.
• 29:57
  Speaker 6: And in two thousand and ten, h I heard about
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: the earthquake in Haiti, and I'd never been to Haiti,
• 30:07
  Speaker 6: probably couldn't find it that easily on a map.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: He heard that the earthquake had destroyed an orphanage, so
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: he got on a plane and flew to Haiti.
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: And what I saw there will never leave my mind.
• 30:19
  Speaker 6: I'm sure many of you remember that earthquake. It was devastating.
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: In forty five seconds, it killed nearly three percent.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Of Haiti's population.
• 30:28
  Speaker 6: Of its population, can you imagine in America that would
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: be about nine million people dead and left about ten
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: percent of its population homeless.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: The orphanage was in ruins.
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: And the toilets were a little bit more than holes
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: in the ground, and just behind them were fields. Prior
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: to that were fields where kids would use rocks to
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: bang on other rocks so that the rats would run
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: away if they had to go to the bathroom at night,
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: and then they would use the rock for toilet paper.
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: So we had our hands, our work cut out for us,
• 31:02
  Speaker 6: and I began to go back with some guys from Detroit,
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: and we had an idea to fix the place up.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Now. The thing is what stuck with me the most, with.
• 31:12
  Speaker 6: The kids, the kids that were there and their smiles
• 31:16
  Speaker 6: and their joy, and their faith and their belief that
• 31:20
  Speaker 6: things could get better. Those kids were the reason that
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: I came back and came back, and came back and
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: came back. Every single month since February of twenty ten,
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: for the last thirteen years, I've been in Haiti at
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: that orphanage, and we began to build it up with
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: guys I brought down from Detroit again. All I did
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: was ask they didn't have to pay anybody. They all
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: came as volunteers, and we built the first kitchen and
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: the first showers and all things that didn't exist there before,
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: and we began to grow. We got bigger, and we
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: got bigger, and we got bigger.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: One of America's most successful writers has been going to Haiti,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: a place that the rest of the world has all
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: but given up on. He's gone every month for thirteen
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: years with a group of his friends from Detroit, driving
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: back and forth from the airport in an armored car.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Because much of the country is controlled by criminal gangs.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: And why does he keep going Because he discovered quite
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: by accident, that giving makes you feel like living. When
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: album heard about Matts Coogan's experiment, he told some of
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the students at his orphanage about it, and they applied
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: answered the same essay questions as everyone else.
• 32:42
  Speaker 6: Our kids, with these new facilities have learned from the
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: very beginning that they are there to help one another,
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: and so we found it funny when in the application
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: process they ask what is your community involvement? And the
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: kids who filled out the application said, mister Mitch, you know, like,
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: what are we supposed to put? What does this mean
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: community involvement? And I said, well, what do you do
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: for others? And I said, let's talk about what you
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: do for others, And fifteen minutes later we were still
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: listing things because every day our kids take care of
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: the other kids. Our kids are there big brothers and
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: big sisters. They are their sources of carrying and food
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: and cleansing and washing and feeding and dressing and taking
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: to school and watching out for one another. And we
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: go out into the community and help with the streets.
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: Or when we used to be able to travel around,
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: our kids would go to a place where they had
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: premature babies were born and they would hold the babies
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: because nobody ever held these children and they had no
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: human contact. And our kids, most of whom have no parents,
• 33:52
  Speaker 6: come from places where in many cases we have to
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: invent birth certificates because we literally don't know where they
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: came from, how old they are, or who their parents are.
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: And these kids are holding other little babies to make
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: them feel welcome in the world. I have seen their
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: ability and their desire to give back, so when they
• 34:12
  Speaker 6: filled out that application, it was easy to say what
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: they've done for others.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: All of our kids know.
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: They don't even have to agree to it, because it's
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: part of our DNA that when they're done with college
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: and we send all of our kids to college or
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: a graduate school. Our first one just got accepted to
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: medical school last month.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: And we're going to have our first doctor.
• 34:33
  Speaker 6: So if you can be like Jewish dad, proud of
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: a Haitian doctor, there we are and we find money
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: to pay for it. But they know that the first
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: thing they do when they graduate is they come back
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: to the orphanage and they work for two years giving
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: back at the orphanage from the place that gave to them.
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: That is the concept, that is the concept of hope forward.
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: So our kids were living this concept. They hate to
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: break it to you, met, but it ain't original. Our
• 35:05
  Speaker 6: kids have been living this concept from the very beginning.
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: And speak of kids, I can't see so well, but
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: you may have noticed some of those pictures.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: A little earlier on the screen behind album was a
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: series of photographs. There were two teen girls together, and
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: then a boy, and then another teenage boy flexing his muscles.
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: All of them last June graduated from our school and
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: what is always the best moment that we have at
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: our orphanage. And all of them now are right here
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: at Hope and they're in this room right here. They're
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: already gonna kill me for showing those photos, so I'm
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: not gonna make them come up and be acknowledged in
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: the front. But they're here, Samenza and Kiki and Teta
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: and JJ and if we have any luck, we'll have
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: two more or maybe even three more coming here next year.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: So is Matt Skogan crazy? I don't think so. I
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: think everyone else is crazy for giving up on the
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: idea that giving makes you feel like living. I wish
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you could have been there in that room listening to
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Mitch Album and Madison and Matt Skogan and all the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: other revolutionaries in Holland, Michigan who believe that gratitude and
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: generosity can help us rebuild what is broken.
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: So we're very proud to be associated with a program
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: that is embodying the very belief that we teach at
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: our orphanage to have faith eighty orphanage, that you are
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: responsible for one another in this world.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And from the.
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: Minute our kids arrive, they know that somebody has taken
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: responsibility for them, and from the moment they leave us,
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: they know that they have to take responsibility for somebody else.
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: That is a good circle and we're proud to be
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: a part of it.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: This episode of Revision's History was produced by Bend, Daph
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Haffrey and Leeman Gistoo. This is actually Lee's last show
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: with us, as she's moved on to the world of
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: audio fiction. If you want to hear one of Lee's
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: great accomplishments on Revisionist, check out our Little Mermaid series. Lee.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: We will miss You. Jacob Smith, Kr Powell make up
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: the rest of our producing team. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Original scoring by Luis Garra, fact checking by Kishelle Williams
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and Tali Emlin, mastering by Flon Williams, and engineering by
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Nina Lawrence. Additional recording by Jonathan Fagel and Ben Ugama.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Special thanks to Matt Skogan, Jason Cash, Mary Remen Schneider,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: and everyone who welcomed us at Hope College. I'm Malcolm Glaba.