Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Rethinking Success After High School

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Rethinking Success After High School · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. As we move
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: towards the end of the year, some big decisions need
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: to be made for parents. They're really kids' decisions. What
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: am I going to do with the rest of my life,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: especially if school's finishing? Or maybe it's time for subject selection.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: All of the decisions feel so heavy. There's so much
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: stress around For us as parents, seeing our children do
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: well at school, because we really truly believe that doing
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: well at school is the one success metric that's going
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: to determine how our children go for the rest of
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: their lives, inappropriately, unfairly, but that's kind of how it feels.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Today on the podcast, we talk with educator, careers expert,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and single mum of three, Dr. Jo Winchester, on how
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: parents can support their children's futures without passing on all
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: of their anxieties. We're going to talk about gap years.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about AI and the future of jobs.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about what to do when you've
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: got a child who just doesn't know what they want
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: to do at all. And we're also going to talk
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: about those families who are raising neurodivergent kids, where it
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: just feels like even getting a job or finishing school
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: might be a bridge too far. Stay with us. All
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: of that and more is next. Hello, welcome to the
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, where you get real parenting solutions every
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: single day. My name is Dr. Justin Coulson. Dad to
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: six kids, four of whom have finished high school now
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: and are making their way in the world, hopefully reasonably successfully.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: It feels like they're doing fine. And a former high
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: school dropout. Well, I finished high school, but I scored
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: on the bottom 15% of the state. Didn't do very well.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: This is a conversation that's really close to my heart,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and I'm so delighted to be joined by Dr. Joe Winchester.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: New research commissioned by Dr. Joe found that one in
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: three parents believe guiding their child towards the right career
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: is one of the hardest challenges of modern parenting. We've
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: got AI changing the workforce. University no longer guarantees security.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: In fact, there are big questions being asked everywhere about university.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I kind of feel like a bad person saying that
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: because university has been such a gift in my life,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: but university isn't what it used to be. It really isn't.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Sorry to everyone who's working at a uni right now
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: and hearing me say that. And there's just this stress,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the financial stress. How are our kids ever going to
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: be able to make their way and buy a house? Okay,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: that's a long intro. So let me move to Dr.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Joe Winchester.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Dr.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Joe spent the last 25 years or more Working with
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: young people, parents and educators like me kind of messed
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: high school up, received an ATAR of 50 before taking
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: an alternative pathway to university and ultimately completing a doctorate.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Joe is also neurodivergent and I think has a really
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: deeply personal understanding of why conventional measures are not always
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: reflecting a young person's potential. Jo, sorry about the long intro, but.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: No problem, Dr. Justin. It's great to be here to
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: talk about this topic. And yes, I can see there's
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of in-sync things we have around this topic.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I care about it so much. And the narrative that's
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: out there feels to me like it's not helping parents
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: or children. What's your take on the standard narrative that
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: kids need to do well at school so that they
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: can get into university, so they can get a high-paying job,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: so they can have a successful life?
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know whether that narrative ever really existed
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: for everyone, but it's certainly been shaken up lately with
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: the advent of AI, with the changes in universities. And also,
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I think changes in parenting have meant that schools have changed.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And so we now are in this situation where parents
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: and young people, they recognize that the world of work
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: has changed. But they're not really getting the practical solutions
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: from industry or from education providers so that they can
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: make informed decisions.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Tell me about your background. You're neurodivergent. You kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: bombed high school, which I did as well. And now
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  Speaker 1: the two of us and so many people that we
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  Speaker 1: know who have had similar pathways, running around with PhDs
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: or with written books, really making a decent go of it.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: How did you end up where you are? What's the
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  Speaker 1: short version of the Dr. Jo Winchester, I'm a failure
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  Speaker 1: at school story?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's so interesting because I didn't necessarily feel
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: like a failure while I was in school. I actually
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: really loved school and I was undiagnosed ADHD at that time,
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  Speaker 2: like most of us women in the 90s were. But
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  Speaker 2: I loved school and I engaged... really a lot with
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  Speaker 2: it and was in a lot of extracurricular activities. But
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  Speaker 2: when it came to exams, I just didn't do well.
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  Speaker 2: And now I understand that that's because it's not that
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know the content or have a really intelligent
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: analysis of English texts, etc. I just couldn't write that
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  Speaker 2: down in 50 minutes. so that I would achieve a
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: good ATAR so yeah when my ATAR came at 50
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  Speaker 2: it was actually this really pivotal moment for me because
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  Speaker 2: I knew that number didn't reflect my intelligence or my
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: own knowledge but I it meant that because at the
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: time ATAR was a bit more fixed in terms of
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: your entry into university it meant that the course that
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I wanted to get into I didn't and so ended
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: up um in Newcastle University at the very new Arimba
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  Speaker 2: campus and not necessarily very happy about it at the beginning. Right, right.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that so many parents are hearing this story
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  Speaker 1: and going, this is either me or this is my kids.
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  Speaker 1: I'm looking at them and I know they've got so
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  Speaker 1: much more capacity, so much more potential and they're not
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: living up to it. And yet you get into that
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: course or you go and get that qualification or that
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  Speaker 1: certification and all of a sudden all the stuff that's
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  Speaker 1: going on at school seems like it's in the distant
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: past and I don't want to downplay it, but I
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: want to say we got worried about nothing. How would
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you say it better than that? Because that feels like
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  Speaker 1: it's a little bit long-footed.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think the world of education and university
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: has changed, and I don't think the knowledge of teachers
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: and parents has actually caught up with it. So, yes,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: back in the 1990s, it did kind of matter what
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: ATAR you got in terms of what course you got
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: into but then again I ended up in in air
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: quotes a bachelor just a bachelor of arts but actually
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: it was the making of me because it meant that
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I could concentrate on drama which I loved I was
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: getting high distinctions and distinctions I engaged myself in in
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: university work and and found this love of working with
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: young people and community that has just seen me through
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: the rest of my career so while yes it was
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: a failure it actually I think put me on that
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  Speaker 2: right path And so that's where I want my message
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: to go to parents and to young people is that
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  Speaker 2: ATAR is certainly one measure. And I think, yes, sure,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: work hard and do your best. But if you aren't
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: going to get the ATAR for the right course that
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: you want now, there are so many alternative pathways into
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: university or into the world of work that it doesn't
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: have the weight that I think it's being given to
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: at the moment in society. Okay.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Jo, when I hear you say that, I think about
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: all four of my daughters who have finished high school.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Three of them are now at university. The fourth one's
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: taking an extended gap year. But all of them got
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: into university via alternative pathways, which is what I encourage
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: them to do. I want to hit you up with
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a quick lightning round. There's so much that we need
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: to talk about, but I just want to get some yes,
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: no answers just so the parents can kind of go, oh, yeah, okay.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: So first off, gap years, yes or no?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, if it's right for your child, for sure. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: As a former university lecturer, I felt like a gap
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: year was right for about 80% of kids. I feel
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: like maybe 10% to 20% of kids were ready for
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: uni straight after high school.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: So true. Yes, agree. Agree.
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  Speaker 1: ATAR 50 or ATAR 99? Who's better set up for
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the workforce in 2035? Can I.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Say either or both or depends or like it's such
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  Speaker 2: a number that is about a point in time. And
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: after that point of time is over, that number no
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  Speaker 2: longer matters. Brilliant.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: University open days, overrated or underrated?
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  Speaker 2: I think underrated, but I think that young, I know
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: this is supposed to be lightning, and parents are looking
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: for the wrong thing. So my advice is when you
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  Speaker 2: go to a university, don't just look at the status
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: and the ranking. I want you to go to a
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  Speaker 2: university and think about, am I the kind of student
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  Speaker 2: that loves a small group? So maybe a smaller university
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: is better for you. Or are you someone that needs
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of people and a lot of excitement and
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on, then maybe go to
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  Speaker 2: a bigger university. So I think university open days are amazing,
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  Speaker 2: but don't look at the rankings. Go and meet the
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  Speaker 2: actual lecturers. Talk to them. If you're getting a good vibe,
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  Speaker 2: go there. A degree is a degree. At the end
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: of the day, the name of the university does not
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  Speaker 2: matter as much as what universities think it does.
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  Speaker 1: I love that you said that. So I did my
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  Speaker 1: undergrad at UQ. Prestigious, sandstone university, group of eight, all
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. And Oh, my goodness. As a
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: UQ graduate, I really love rubbing it into the Griffith
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: University students. I did my PhD at the University of Wollongong.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have the same prestige associated with it, but
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  Speaker 1: what an incredible experience. One of the richest and most
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  Speaker 1: wonderful experiences of my life. I'm so glad that you
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: said that the way you did. I have one more
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: lightning round question before we get into some really nitty
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: gritty stuff. Your teenager announces that they're going to become
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  Speaker 1: a full-time YouTuber. First word out of your mouth as
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: a parent.
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  Speaker 2: Excellent, you're going to buy me that house that I
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: need to buy in this market. If that's your passion,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: go for it, my mate. And my son has said
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: that to me. And I said, great, how are we
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: going to go about it?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you've got to have a plan.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Got to have a plan. Like what's the go? How
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: do we get advertising? Like what's your topic going to
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: be about? Like why? Like I don't think there's anything necessarily,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: you know, air quotes wrong with being a YouTuber, but
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: it's not easy. Like it's not an easy job. And so, yeah,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: going into a job like that or a career like that,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: you have to have a real plan and you have
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to have a real kind of push and focus as
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: to what you're actually putting out in that world. So
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: it's more to it than just, yeah, filming yourself gaming.
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  Speaker 2: It's a lot more than that. Okay.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: So the summary so far is that you are not
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: your ATAR. Big decisions need to be made. You don't
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: have to rush and there are alternative pathways. After the break,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: a slightly more serious conversation. What do you do to
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: support neurodivergent children whose strengths may not be reflected at school?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And how can we as parents encourage our kids to
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: work hard and really strive to do well when they're
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: kind of looking at school and going, what's the point?
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I just don't see any purpose here. All that right
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: after this. We're back. It's the Happy Families podcast. Jo,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: let's talk about supporting neurodivergent kids at school. Quite often
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: the school context doesn't feel like it supports our children's strengths.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: They're not necessarily reflected in the school environment. What advice
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: would you have for parents and for their children who
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: are struggling because of neurodivergent challenges or maybe some other
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: psychological issues?
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: As you would know, Dr. Justin, a lot of neurodivergent
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: kids have more than likely got neurodivergent parents. And this
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: is where I think the major difficulty is. So as
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: a neurodivergent person myself who has neurodivergent children, this is
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: my biggest struggle because I have to deal with my
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: own ADHD while I'm trying to support my own kids'
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: engagement with school. And two of my sons have different
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: variations of neurodivergency. And so And they both have different needs.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: So wanting one child to feel comfortable and the other
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: child to be able to set up study while I'm
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: also dealing with my own memory loss, like it's just
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: so difficult. So big hug to all you neurodivergent parents
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: who have neurodivergent kids. And what I want to say
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: to you is that the thing that I want you
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: to concentrate on more on is like, is your child happy?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Are they being supported in a loving environment in that school?
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: And don't worry too much about their grades at this stage.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: What you want to foster in your child is a
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: love of learning that they can speak to you when
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: things are struggling and tell them that they're not their
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: marks because more than likely, particularly if it's an ADHD child,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: they're not really getting the marks that actually reflect their knowledge.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And the world will come to embrace their neurodivergency one
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: day and it just might take them longer. So I
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: think take the pressure off your kids in terms of
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: having the outcomes and and more focus on getting them
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: to school on time, studying maybe 15 minutes a day,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: small goals for those neurodivergent children to help set them
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: up for the world of work. But you know that
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: their marks aren't reflecting their intelligence. Like I know with
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: my son, he will tell me everything about soccer statistics
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: or space or And his marks aren't reflected in who
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: he is and his abilities. And it's just like, it's okay.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not okay, but in terms of I
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: wish our education systems were different, but they aren't at
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: the moment. So it's, you know, be kind to yourself
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: and to your child.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a top task. Jo, why is asking teenagers
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: to choose their career increasingly unrealistic?
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: The world of work is changing so rapidly and it's
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: always changed, but now new jobs are being created all
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: the time. And what you really need to understand is
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that what your child's exposed to at school and with
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: your own networks as a parent is actually quite limited.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: There are more jobs out there than what you have
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a knowledge of, let alone your own child. So, I
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: suggest really focusing on the skills that they have, their
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: personal interests, their personal passions, and building that up. And
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: then they will find a career that suits that. So,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Partner pigeonholing your child too early can mean that they'll
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: have a narrow focus on what they're actually able to achieve.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Being a bit more open-minded, being willing to explore different
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: kinds of careers, even generic degrees might suit your child
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: better and have them find a more fulfilling career pathway
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: than putting a label on them too early. And allowing
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: your child to make mistakes and go on different paths
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: as well is something that you have to accept because
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: their first choice might, they might, oh gosh, I really
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: hate this and then go somewhere else. That's okay. And
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: that's normal. And we should be encouraging that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Two of my favorite books on that topic. One, Range
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: by David Epstein and two, Dark Horse by Todd Rose.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're familiar with either of those.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: No, I'll have to put them both on my list.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Amazing books. Range basically says, get experience, get breadth before
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: you go for depth. Because experience rounds you out and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: gives you a whole lot of general knowledge and you
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: kind of find out a lot about yourself. You discover
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: your identity as you're getting range. Dark horse basically is
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: you discover things about yourself and you don't have to
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: take the path most traveled. You can take the path
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: less traveled because that's what suits you. Todd Rose is
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: a graduate school of education at Harvard, academic who's started
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: his own think tank and he's amazing. I find it
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: really interesting, Dr. Joe. I'll be running a parent seminar
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: and I'll ask the parents in the room to put
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: up their hand if they're doing today what they thought
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: they'd be doing when they finished high school for work.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: It's usually about one in 10.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: So the pressure that we put on our kids to
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: figure out where they're going to go and what they're
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: going to do just feels unhelpful and unfair.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Feel like we could talk for a long time and
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: have an absolute riot, but that's probably a good place
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: to wrap it up. If people are struggling with some
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: challenges with their kids, looking for some career advice, this
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: is the work that you do professionally. How can people
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: get in touch and what is it that you could offer?
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: You can go to my website, drjoewinchester.com.au. I actually have
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a whole lot of free resources on that website for
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: parents and young people to use. Yeah, even just things like,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: you know, how to make the most out of open day,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: how to find your own career path, very, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: simple activities that you can do with your child. My
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: email address is on there too, info at drjoewinchester.com.au. More
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: than happy to hear from you. Reach out, you know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: get in contact. This is my passion. I really want
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: to make a difference in young people and finding their purpose.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: um yeah so yeah those are the two best places
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: you can find.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Been a delight to talk to you thanks so much
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: for chatting on the happy families podcast it's great thank
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: you the happy families podcast is produced by justin roland
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: from bridge media mim hammonds provides admin and other support
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: we'll link to dr joe winchester's website and details in
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the show notes check it out if you're looking for
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: some careers advice support or help for your kids