Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Stop the Broken Record | a conversation with Pastor Matt Brown an Enneagram Three

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Stop the Broken Record | a conversation with Pastor Matt Brown an Enneagram Three · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: So, what I would say is the Enneagram can improve any relationship as long as, as Christians, we say Jesus is the surgeon, the Enneagram is the scalpel.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: We don't thank the scalpel when the surgeon takes out cancer.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: We thank the surgeon.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: Hi, my name is Amy Wicks, and I help you navigate the overwhelm and frustration of motherhood through faith, Enneagram, and simple plans.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: As a faith-based Enneagram coach, I champion you to love your mothering style because you are the mom your kids need, even when you don't feel like it.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm a mountain mama who somehow ended up on a cul-de-sac in the Midwest, overwhelmed and frustrated by motherhood.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: But the Lord didn't let me stay there.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: He helped me turn the challenges of motherhood into a wholehearted decision to get intentional with my faith, my self-awareness, and my family.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Each episode of this podcast provides perspective through story, wholehearted purpose, and simple plan so you can discover how to love your mothering style and be confident that you are the mom your kids need.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Think of this podcast as your on-the-go mom pal and friend who can't help but talk about Jesus and the Enneagram.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: So get to that pile of laundry or hit the treadmill or load up the kids in the car for that grocery run.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Get ready to be encouraged and empowered while you listen.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: This is the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: So I have to admit, going into this conversation with our guest, I wasn't feeling my typical bubbly and excited self.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: I think, in short, well, there was a ton of going on behind the scenes, but my expectations were kind of low.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: It sounds rude.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: I promise I'm not trying to be.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: But I'm mentioning this because the last thing in the world that I expected to have happen during this conversation was cry.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: But cry, I did.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: It was one of those, oh my goodness, this is gonna be an ugly cry.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: How am I gonna hold it in?
2:15
SPEAKER_01: I did manage.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: And we had a beautiful, wonderful conversation.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Now, if my tears are any indication, you can trust me that this conversation is so rich.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: And I believe that you're gonna appreciate this episode with Pastor Matt Brown.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: Now you might listen and wonder, what the heck was she crying about?
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you're gonna tune in and you'll be moved the same way that I was.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Pastor Matt Brown is a very honest Enneagram three.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: He was moved and convicted when he encountered the truth of his personality through the lens of the Enneagram.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: As he worked in the local church, he has found the Enneagram to be very helpful in guiding, teaching, and leading those under his care.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: So he decided to write a book about it and help others see themselves in the personalities found in the Bible characters we know and love.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: If you happen to be listening to this in real time, Pastor Matt just last week released his book, A Book Called You.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: It's another one that you can count on to be biblically grounded and was written in hopes that you can discover more about yourself and gain specific wisdom about how you are uniquely made.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Now let's jump right into the conversation.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, I typically hear, I've had a lot of actually pastors over the years.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: I've actually grew up as a pastor's kid and um been a church staff uh person for over the years, over the decades.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: What I love um getting the pastoral perspective on a topic and insight, but in particular today, we want to talk about your book.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: We want to talk about the Enneagram.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: I would love for you to share how understanding the Enneagram has helped you as a dad as you relate to your kids, cultivating their hearts to be postured towards Christ from the father perspective.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: My baptism with the Enneagram really starts with my wife, and then I'll move to my kids.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: And so that's usually what happens, right?
4:08
SPEAKER_00: My wife and I got married, we started a church together, we both love Jesus, love each other, and we just didn't have a good marriage at all.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: We just really struggled, we really battled.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that we both felt a little hopeless.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: And um, I think that's really hard for Christians that are super committed, believe, you know, in sticking it out.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: We got into a big fight one night, and I'm not proud of this.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't want any of the listeners to ever think that I'm proud of what I did or or I'm condoning what I did.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: But we got into an argument that ultimately led my wife into the bathroom with the door closed and me on the other side of the door.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Why was she inside the bathroom with the door closed?
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Because she felt threatened.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: She felt unsafe.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And I was clueless to all of her feelings, which is why I'm such a big advocate for the Enneagram, because I think so many of us are clueless to ourselves, and others experience us in a way that we are completely blind to.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: And so we were in this argument, and I said, I'm not proud of this, Amy.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: I said, Why does the whole world think I'm amazing except you?
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm a three.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, makes total sense.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: Know that at the time, and I hear this whimpering voice, and I don't think we talk enough in the church about the spiritual gift of hearing.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: What is the Shema?
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Deuteronomy 6, 4, hear, O Israel.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: So the great command every morning, Jews pray, let me hear you, God.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: So this is the first time in my life as a Christian where I really heard God's voice.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: And the Holy Spirit borrowed my voice, my wife's voice box.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: And this is what she said.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: I said, Why does the whole world think I'm amazing but you?
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Because no one knows the real you like I do.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: And it landed, Amy.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: It was devastating.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Because here's the truth: I desperately loved my wife.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: I wanted a good marriage, I didn't want to fight, but I really believed that so much of our problem was her because I think, as a lot of pastors, right, we live in a one-directional relationship.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: So I communicate truths to you, I talk to you.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, how does God talk to us?
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And what I tell pastors all the time is oftentimes through your wife or through your kids.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And so that began my journey of realizing I have some real work to do because my own wife doesn't want to follow me, doesn't believe in me, doesn't trust me.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And those are huge problems.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: And it really kind of sent me spinning out of control.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: What I would tell people, and so many Christians, you know, unfortunately, were anti-the very things that God can use to help us.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: And so for all the listeners who are uncomfortable with the Enneagram, here's what I tell my church: it's just a tool.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: So my favorite verse in the Bible is Matthew 11, 28, and 29.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: Come to me, all who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest for your souls.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Take my yoke upon you, and I will give you rest.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: What does Jesus invite us to?
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Not just to him, but he's talking about a tool.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: A tool is a yoke.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: What does a yoke do?
6:54
SPEAKER_00: It plows the field.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: So in another section where in Matthew, Jesus talks about the kingdom of God is like seed that is spread.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: The problem is never the seed, the problem is the soil.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And the Ennephram is a tool that God can use for those of us who've been trampled in life, those of us who the seed falls upon the path.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, we didn't get to choose being abused, we didn't get to choose being mistreated, we didn't get to choose being unloved or overlooked, right?
7:22
SPEAKER_00: The devil has stolen so much joy in our life.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: It's hard for us to hear the good news.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Some of us, rocky soil, I'm a three, right?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Super thin with rocks underneath.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: And the bottom line is the gospel can't go where it needs to go because I'm full of rocks.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Some of us, right, the anxieties and worries of this life.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: My wife's high six.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: So fear can keep you from the love of God and the work of God.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, he talks about what we all want.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: We all want to be that good soil that's cultivated by a tool, right?
7:51
SPEAKER_00: God continues to plow through us and work through us.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: And so many people in the church, they know they're a sinner, but they don't know how they sin.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: They know they have problems, they don't know where they have problems.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: They want a better marriage, they don't understand their spouse.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: So, not just for marriage, but with my kids, I think so many parents struggle with their kids because they think they're raising a many of them.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: I see this all the time.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna live the life I wanted to live.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have the things I didn't have.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And so we recreate ourselves and the childhood we wish we had, and we wonder why we get screwed up kids.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: I would just tell every parent who's listening, you know, my daughter's a high four.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I have very low four.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: My other daughter's a high nine.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: I have zero nine.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: There's no peacemaking in me.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: It's embarrassing.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then my son is high five.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: I have never had a thought that I don't share out of my mouth.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: So here's what I would say to parents listening.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Here's the Enneagram can help you.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: When I'm frustrated with my son, he shuts down and he shuts in.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Every parent needs to know this.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Fives never act out, they always act in.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: So here's what I think my son doesn't care.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: He's not listening, I'm not connecting.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And what happens is my personality is running over him.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: So I've need to learn, and I would just say, Amy, as a pastor, here's the mistake.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: If I could summarize Pastor Matt Brown's first 15 years in ministry, I led people the way I wanted to be led.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Try communicating to an eight with nuance.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to punch him in the face lovingly, stand your ground, and say, if you don't do this, then there's going to be a consequence.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: I didn't understand that because I don't like to be spoken to that way.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: I like options and choices, and I want to be heard and oh my gosh.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's revolutionized the way that I see my kids, how I talk to my kids, how I challenge my kids.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: So I have a daughter who's a high nine.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: We talk about laziness a lot.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: She hates it.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm a triathlete.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: I get up, I work out every day, I read my Bible every day.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm very, very focused-driven person.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: So you can imagine raising a nine where we talk about going for a walk for a month.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it drives me crazy, but I have to realize she's not me.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: She's her.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: And so I have to lovingly come alongside.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And so here's the thing: the more I challenge, the more she avoids.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Actually, what my strategy is counterintuitive.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, with my daughter who's a four, we have to talk about okay, what did you feel like I said rather than what I said?
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't matter what came out of my mouth.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: What matters is how does it land?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And uh, I'm as you can tell, I'm a passionate person, I'm a loud person.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: My daughter who's a four does not appreciate that.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, feels uh overlooked and overrun and not seen.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: And then my son, right?
10:41
SPEAKER_00: He's just like, you know, dad, you're freaking me out.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: So so what I would say is the Enneagram can improve any relationship as long as as Christians, we say Jesus is the surgeon, the Enneagram is the scalpel.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: We don't thank the scalpel when the surgeon takes out cancer.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: We thank the surgeon.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: And and so many of my Christian friends, you know, they're so weirded out.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And and the big thing I get now is well, it's like astrology, and here's how it's radically different from astrology.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, please, let's unpack that.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Astrology says on the day of your birth, according to the alignment of the stars, your life was fixed forever.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Here's who you need to marry, here's what's going to happen.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: Your future is already determined.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: So our choices don't matter.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And so people are turning to people to read their future, read their palms, right?
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Because it's already on your hands.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: And what I would say, the Enneagram says is look, your life can suck or it can be better.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: If you simply understand what trips you up, where do you sin?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And then this is why I think it's so important as Christians that we embrace the popularity of Christianity.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Because Amy, I don't have a hard time, even in California, getting people to believe in God.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: That's not the problem.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: The problem is they don't believe they're sinners.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: Does what needs to change?
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, they can rip Donald Trump out here all day long until Tuesday.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, so we're, you know, there's not a hint of self-righteousness there.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no, absolutely not.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, just it's so amazing to me that no, everybody goes to heaven, Amy.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Nobody's going to hell.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I'm like, nobody, not child molesters, not serial murderers, not rapists.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we don't even have a concept of hell anymore because that's bad.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you know what's bad?
12:24
SPEAKER_00: A culture that can't identify evil.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: In California, just so you know, we're debating right now, letting out Sirhan Sirhan, who murdered Robert F.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Kennedy, who could have been one of the greatest politicians in our history.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna let him out.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, sometimes there's evil, guys.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And and the Enneagram talks about evil, it talks about sin, and it talks about beauty.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: And I think the beauty of the gospel is we can connect our brokenness and beauty through Jesus.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I try to draw people to.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: And the last um podcast I did, the gal who is an Enneagram expert, she said, you talk a lot about Jesus.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: I said, Yes, because the Enneagram can help you.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Jesus and only Jesus can save you.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: What I would just say to everybody, you know, who criticizes, well, I don't know why you would write a book about the Enneagram.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So read the book.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Read the book.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And if you still are convinced that, you know, I'm not about God and all about Jesus, then that's fine.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's an amazing tool who helped me have the marriage I want, who helped me raise the kids that I want.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Amy, you know how many pastors' kids they make this huge impact in their churches and their kids are disasters.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And part of that is because as Christians, especially pastors, we feel this pressure to have all the answers, to always know what to do.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing is we just don't.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: We just don't.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm learning how to be a dad every day.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm learning how to be a husband every day.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And so the Enneagram lets me know where I'm probably going to stumble and where I'm probably going to do well.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think that as Christians, we just don't know ourselves well.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: And in the book, I talk about the greatest commandment includes you love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Wait for it, Amy, as yourself.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: We need to learn to love ourselves.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: And I can't tell you, you know, as a three, Amy, how how divorced I became from myself.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: I've engaged in hobbies and um activities that about halfway through I realized I don't like this.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's just how clueless I can be as a three because I'm so into being successful that I don't actually ask the question, do I want do I actually want to do this?
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Winning for me as a three is more important than calling.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know that.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that's where it's helped me as a three, as a dad, is it's okay to let my kids win.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: It's okay to encourage them, it's okay to come alongside them and celebrate not them winning in my eyes, but them winning in God's eyes.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And that looks very different.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing is I think without the Enneagram, I would have been a worse dad.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Because I just two things, Amy.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: I think I thought I knew what I was doing.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was both.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: You just unpacked a lot of stuff.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: And I want to go back to no, this is good.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I one of the things is yes, hands down, I wrote a book this year called Should Christians Use the Enneagram because the very thing that I was getting all the time, I didn't start off five and a half years ago with as an Enneagram coach, but then over the you know, since 2018, that's what I've been doing.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: And I even put it on the shelf for a little bit when I kept getting pushed back and I did think, like, man, I see so much transformation in my life and others, but maybe I've got something off the mark.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: And so it did really lead me to research what the origins were and all that sort of stuff.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: But I love how you you just clarified that fact that yoke as being a tool and the Lord using the tools, such as the Enneagram.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And I agree uh wholeheartedly.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: I really think that my motherhood, my relationship with my husband, friendships, even how I engage in ministry is radically different because I have the self-awareness.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And I say this in the book and I've said a few times, but I really think that self-awareness and God awareness are symbiotic.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: And I know that we're gonna touch on that because you kind of highlight all the types as it relates and that we can see scripturally in the word of God, uh, which I think is really awesome.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: But kind of going back to here, I want to touch on this a minute because for me, um, I kind of joked about like, yes, I have a pastoral, you know, pastor kid support group.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't officially have one, but it I would say 80% of my clients end up being pastors' kids, which is so fascinating to me, or or MKs as well, which is missionaries kids.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: And I have thought about maybe I really should, because there is so much pain there.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: I have my own story that I won't go into today, but I know that there are a lot of people who are hurt by the church, not just the pastor's kid who are hurt by pastors, hurt by the church.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: And you touched on it by sharing your own personal story.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: So would you maybe unpack a little bit more?
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I know we didn't talk about this ahead of time, but this concept of what would happen if church leadership really utilized the Enneagram, not only for their own lives as pastors, but for their leadership teams, because that's a mission and a passion of mine, because our churches desperately need it right now because we are losing people.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: We're no longer, like you said, following the truth anymore, but our churches are not helping the hurting.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it has to do with the systemic issue at the leadership.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, the vision of Sandals Church is to be real with yourselves, real with God, and real with others.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Now, in the 90s, when I started Sandals, I had no idea I was a three whose core sin was lying.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: And so what I tell people now is God knew what kind of church I needed to be a part of as a three who struggles with lying.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Totally ironic.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Right?
17:48
SPEAKER_00: So God always knows what he's doing, and we have to catch up to that.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: But what I would say is to all your listeners, um, you know, you weren't hurt by the church.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: You were hurt by broken people who are wearing a uniform in the church.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's a priest, sometimes that's a pastor.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: And and my heart breaks because I was abused by my youth pastor, uh, not sexually, but physically.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: He was just an angry, broken man.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: He did some unspeakable things.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: He just was a violent, broken person, but talented, right?
18:20
SPEAKER_00: So that means you get to be a youth pastor in the church.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I remember I ran, I you know, I ran away from God.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: My life was a disaster.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: I had an experience one day where a UPS person was just a jerk.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: And we got into an argument about the package and the quality of the package.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: And the UPS guy said to me, Do you want the package or not?
18:41
SPEAKER_00: And you know what I said?
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And I would say this to all your listeners, I said, Of course I do because it's mine.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: And then I heard God say, Don't blame me for the delivery person.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Do you want me or not?
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And here's here's the answer Yes.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I want you.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And um I think some of us are are allowing our relationship with God to be hijacked by the brokenness of others.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: And what we have to do is say, I'm not gonna let this person who abused me, who hurt me, I'm not gonna let them destroy the most precious thing in my life, which is my relationship with God.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: And I can wait all day long for broken people to get well, or I can say, Jesus, heal me.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: My book ends with the story of uh the sick man at the well waiting 38 years, and Jesus says, Do you want to get well?
19:32
SPEAKER_00: And he says, I have no one to help me.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think what we tend to do in our brokenness is blame others.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And what we need to do is listen to Jesus.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: And so the church is full of broken people.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm broken, we make mistakes, but the church is also a beautiful thing if we can unlock authenticity and really have grace, you know, with truth.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's just just so important for me.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And so, what I would say is, pastors, you need to have permission to be real.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: But here's what my dad said, Amy.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: My dad was a pastor.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: He said, Son, I would have been fired every Sunday night for half the stuff you say.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: But I'll tell you this I listened to my dad preach my entire life.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: I only remember one sermon, Amy.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And for all the pastors who are listening, here's the one sermon I remember.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: We got into it.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I was a snotty teenager, selfish.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: My brain was broken.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: That's what happens to teenagers.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: Hold on, man.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: God gives us teenagers to humble us.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: My dad stopped his sermon and he said, I can't continue preaching until I'm right with my son.
20:40
unknown: Wow.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And he said, Please forgive me.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, and here I am, half paying attention in the background.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's the most powerful moment in my life.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's and Jesus said the truth will set you free.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And I realized in that moment, my dad wasn't just a figurehead, he was my father.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And it was a beautiful gift.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where the seed of authenticity was born for me in that moment.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: And what a precious gift.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, and my dad's, you know, gone in heaven and not with me anymore.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have that till I die.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's even something that I'm going to have in heaven, you know, because that's his fruit.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, Paul talks about that we build all these things and what's gold lasts, I think that was my dad's golden moment in my life.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it was just huge.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I would just say to all the pastors, pastors, you know what?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be really hard to get your church to get healthy and to get real.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, it's like when you're in a relationship, husband and wife, where they're both obese, both have to agree to get healthy, or else one's going to pull them back.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing if you're overweight, you're probably going to both die a horrible, terrible, awful disease.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: And just like we can't have a conversation in America about obesity, we can't have conversations in the church about authenticity.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: But they're killing both.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And like Jesus said, you shall know the truth and the truth.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Truth will set you free.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: For every pastor, your congregation will only be as real and as deep as you are.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: You can't take people to a place you do not go yourself.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: I spoke in front of one of the largest audience I've ever spoken with.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: And there was a, there was a, and I can't say who it was, but it's a very famous, well-known Christian artist who was leading worship.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: And this was his comment to me, Amy.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: It really broke my heart.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: In shock, he looked at me and he said, You're the same person no matter where you are.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And that was shocking to him.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, who else would I be?
22:35
SPEAKER_00: And for every pastor listening, hypocrite is the favorite cuss word of Jesus.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Today we call them actors.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of pastors just want to be famous.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: They don't actually want to make a difference, they don't actually want to minister and care for their people.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, like today, I worked out at the gym.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I got up early this morning.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Today is my sermon prep day, and I was just anxious about the upcoming series.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: And every pastor knows that.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't sleep.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: It's 5 a.m.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: I go to the gym.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And I ran into a Muslim woman in my church.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Her name is Samaya.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think it means beautiful daughter of God or something in Arabic.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: And I said, How's your marriage?
23:12
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I can't believe that you remember me.
23:15
unknown: Wow.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: And I said, I said, of course I do.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Because God's called me to care for people.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And she started crying.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm living with my parents.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: I've moved back in with them.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm still praying for you.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And I said, and you matter to God.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think that Dallas Willard, do you know who he is?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, he was close to me for years out here in Southern California.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And I right before he died, I got about three hours with him.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: And you know what he told me?
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was a prophetic word.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: He said, Matt, you need to be far more concerned about the people that are in your pews than the ones that aren't.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think so many pastors, what they want is a platform.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: And what I would say is, God's already given you that.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And you are the most important person in so many people's lives.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: And our job is to minister to them and love them.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing, Amy, what I would say to all your pastors is years ago, I chased megachurch pastors for years.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Disciple me, disciple me, disciple me.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And I can just tell you, they didn't.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: And that's not to put them down.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit said, then why don't you become the mentor you need?
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: I came home and I told my wife, I said, I'm not, I'm not going to chase these guys anymore.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to become what I need to be.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: So that means I'm going to be faithful to my wife, Amy.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not going down in a scandal.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to love my kids.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to put them over.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And I told my church, my kids are more important than you.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: I love this church.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: I serve this church.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: This church is my life's work, but my kids are the ones that are going to be with me on the day that I die.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: It's funny, and those are the sermons that my kids go, oh, he really loves me.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: When he's saying that in front of thousands of people, you know, Sandals is an audience of about, you know, 30 to 40,000 people on a weekend.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: And and so I have three kids.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: And they go, Oh, he sees me.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: And so pastors need to know that sometimes your kid's the lost sheep.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't expecting ugly good cries here, Pastor Matt.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: This is not good.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm like losing it and um trying to hold together.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: This is so good.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And um I'm gonna try really hard to keep together.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: This touches a teeth place.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: But I can't.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: Um that story is still unfolding in my life.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: But I want to say this to all you parents listening.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be a pastor, you don't have to be a leader, but the power of seeing your kids and being willing to say, I'm sorry, when you blow it, it's life-changing.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: I want people to really hear that and to do that.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And there might be something that you recently had an argument, and okay, I know that our kids are usually strong.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: They usually are, especially when they're teenagers.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: But we also it takes two to tango and we have our stuff that we need to own up to.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: And so take that opportunity.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: And all my friends who are listening who really love your pastors, share this conversation with them to hear this heart and this encouragement.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Because uh, Pastor Matt, I think what it comes down to is a lot of times, like you said, our pastors don't have the mentorship that they need and they long for.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And I I love that.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really what Simply Wholehearted was birthed from too, is that I have that absence of the healthy mentor figure in my life on a lot of different fronts.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And so people kept turning to me to be that.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And I I wanted it, couldn't find it, but in turn, kind of channeled that of like, okay, Lord, be my best mentor.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Word of God, give me the wisdom that I need so I can offer to others what I would love.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I mean, I think that's a message for all of us on so many fronts.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And so thank you for sharing.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I think that vulnerability is a gift.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: I know it touched me, and I know it'll touch so many others.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: There's so much that I would love to talk about and go back to.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And I would just love to point out the irony of you as a three are the in the assertive stance.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And then the Lord gave you three in the withdrawing stance.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: My poor husband got the opposite that he's in the withdrawing stance.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm at least in the assertive stance, but my three kids are all in the assertive stance, and so I'll tell you, it can be exhausting when you have the opposite to work with because you push when you need to pull and you pull when you need to push, and oh that dynamic can be challenging as a parent.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my wife's high six, high one.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so she at least comes in between you guys, does the dutiful work.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: I know have gleaned so much from this conversation, but I would love to talk about your book.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's a book called You.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: The element that stuck out to me was this idea that you went to the Word of God to draw some parallels for us.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: So would you just share a little bit about that aspect of the book?
28:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty sure my friends are going to want to put in their Amazon cart and get that book right away.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And I wrote the book because I know the Enneagrams changed my life and I want it to change people's lives, but I think we need to see biblical characters through the lens of personality.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's really important.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you and I grew up as a kid, right?
28:18
SPEAKER_00: We tell everybody that they need to be born again.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: When I think that conversation is Jesus sitting with a five named Nicodemus, and he's saying, You can't think your way into this.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: You can observe everything, and yet you, a teacher of Israel, know nothing.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: I love how Jesus, you know, fives don't want to be embarrassed or called out publicly.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: So it's a conversation at night.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Jesus meets him where he is.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, fives struggle with greed, and yet it's Nicodemus who pays for the Lord's funeral.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: That's the redemption of Christ.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: A very wealthy, you know, Nicodemus in our days would have been a, you know, a brain surgeon, a professor at Harvard, Yale, you know, just the elite of the elite intellectually.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And yet he's trying to understand Jesus from behind the glass.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is saying it doesn't work that way.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I love fours.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Fours never see themselves as leaders.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: I picked the uh the King Saul, the first person, you know, that God chooses to lead the nation of Israel.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: And the thing that fours fail to see is how unique they are.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: And and when God declares King Saul to be king, he's hiding.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: That's so true, right?
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Over and over again, God says, and Saul stood head and shoulders above others.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: He was unique.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: And then what brought Saul down?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: He compared himself to David.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm not this, I'm not that creative, I'm I'm not that person.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: And they just mourn.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And and if you're not careful, you can get into some real darkness.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: And guess where Saul goes?
29:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Real darkness.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: And and ultimately, what's so sad in that story is, right?
29:54
SPEAKER_00: He's throwing spears at the one who heals him.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: David plays the harp.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think fours think, you know, they don't make a difference.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: And what I love about that story is oftentimes we we see it as a bad ending, which obviously it ends bad for Saul, but there's a civil war in Israel for 30 years.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: I think you and I as church kids, we just kind of assume Saul ended and David became king.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: But there's a civil war, and it's because the people of Israel loved Saul and they were loyal to him.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: He led them valiantly.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: He made some mistakes.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, I talk about the one, the good son.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, what breaks my heart is you and I, as pastors' kids, it's called the prodigal son.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not actually the story, it's a story about a father with two kids.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: And as a church, we've not seen the good son.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: We've never appreciated him.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think ones are unseen and underappreciated in our churches.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And we need to love them.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: They're so critical of themselves.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: We need to teach them how to see grace.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: When I preach on this in this series coming up, I'm going to talk about the Apostle Paul because what I'm going to tell my church is when God wanted to change the world, He called a one.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's so true.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: They are change, agents of change.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amen.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: So there's just so many stories, you know, about how God uses, you know, each of the numbers because we need all of them.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And what I would say to Christians is, well, I'm not a number.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: No, you're right, you're not.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: If you were to come to my home, I would give you my address.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a series of numbers that would help you find me.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: What I tell people is the Enneagram is a number or series of numbers that help you to begin to find yourself.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's harder than you think to self-identify.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: It really is.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Most people are completely asleep to themselves.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: They make the same mistakes their whole life.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: They never listen.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: They never learn.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately you end up dying a very lonely life.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: And for all of your pastors who are listening, you know, the best gift you can give your kids is an authentic, loving home.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: And that means you're not perfect.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: And that means sometimes you you own up to what you didn't do.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: And I have to apologize to my kids all the time because I'm a sinner saved by grace.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And they need to see that.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: And um, I don't want to lose them and build my church.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's so important.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some of your listeners are super advanced Enneagram people.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I think this is a great, my book's a great place to start.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: This is not, you know, um the seven stages of the depth of, you know, the of uh as you sink into sinfulness and go crazy.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just not my book.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: It's an invitation to begin an authentic relationship with yourself using the tool of the Enneagram.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a it's a great book because I think my spiritual gift is making scripture come alive and seeing people as real people.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, I talk about Abraham the nine and and how he avoids conflict and ultimately loses his nephew Lot.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, as parents, you got parents listening.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Look, you can want peace and destroy your children.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: He's unwilling to confront Lot.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: And Lot's life is just this disaster because a lot of parents, right?
33:02
SPEAKER_00: He can't have his own kid, he's desperate to be a parent, a parental figure.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: And so he makes excuses for Lot's behavior.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, you know, Lot's Lot's life ends up where we don't want to go.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's the beauty of scripture is you can look at these people and go, Oh, I'm not gonna go that way, and constantly trying to avoid.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, tell them you're my sister, which is kind of the truth, but we're gonna avoid a conflict.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm totally seeing it.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: All the flannel graph is suddenly coming alive, enneagram nine all the way.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: Pastor Matt, anything else as we close here that you would love to share with my people?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Just that every chapter is going to end with an invitation to be real with yourself, to be real with one another, and to be real with God, that it's going to move you into how do I now live more authentically according to how I identify, or someone that I love, you know, who identifies.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, I love Lisa Bevere.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: She wrote the uh the Ford for my book.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: And I said, What do you think?
33:58
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I read the chapter on eights first.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Of course she did.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: What did you think about, you know, her and her husband are just some mentors in my life, and they're just so they're amazing.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, what did you think about the book?
34:11
SPEAKER_00: And and and it was interesting, you know, her talking about it.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: And she said, you know, I wonder if John is.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's just amazing.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: They have one of the healthiest, most loving relationships that I've seen.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: They're the real deal.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: And yet, after years of marriage, you got a wife saying, I wonder if my husband is.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: And and that's what I would say is be curious, continue to be curious about your spouse, your kids, don't assume, uh, have a heart to listen and to learn.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Lisa's just someone I think that could teach me, and yet she was humble enough to say, Hey, I'm gonna learn from this kid.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And and he has something to say.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: And so understanding yourself is is worth the investment because God thought you were worth Christ dying on the cross.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: So, what value must you have?
34:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, we invest in things that are valuable.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: We need to see ourselves as valuable.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and really, you know, so much of my book I talk about just the frustrations that I I encountered over and over again.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And so many of our lives are like a broken record.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: And the Enneagram can help you stop repeating this mess.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Pastor Matt, thank you.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for your time.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for this book.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited for my people to get it and uh just continue their journey in this reflection.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Love your heart.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: I so appreciate adding this episode to the ongoing conversations about the Enneagram on so many levels.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're looking for further biblical connection to the Enneagram or you're wanting to get more of Matt's perspective, I highly recommend getting a copy of his book today.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Let me know what you thought of this conversation by saying hi on Instagram at wholehearted Enneagram or leave a five star review with your favorite episode so others know what to expect when they find this community.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: Remember, you are the mom your kids need.
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SPEAKER_01: Continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for the wholehearted life you desire.