Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #048 Jason Flom with Jimmie Gardner

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#048 Jason Flom with Jimmie Gardner · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
0:05
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.
0:08
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.
0:13
Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,
0:18
Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have
0:21
Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
0:24
Speaker 2: they are breaking the lord.
0:27
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
0:30
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
0:32
Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be
0:34
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
0:37
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.
0:39
Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.
0:44
Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something
0:46
Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,
0:49
Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.
0:52
Speaker 3: They can.
0:57
Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction.
1:13
Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm Today. I
1:18
Speaker 5: have a unusually strong group of guests. And I say
1:22
Speaker 5: group because, first of all, the star of our show,
1:26
Speaker 5: who was on his way to being a star baseball
1:29
Speaker 5: player actually before this insanity happened, is Jimmy Gardner.
1:32
Speaker 3: Jimmy C.
1:33
Speaker 6: Gardner shares his story of being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated
1:37
Speaker 6: for almost twenty seven years.
1:39
Speaker 7: Jimmy Garden was a Charleston, West Virginia minor league baseball player,
1:43
Speaker 7: and he was accused of sexual assault in nineteen eighty seven.
1:46
Speaker 7: This case was overturned of investigators spout out the state's
1:50
Speaker 7: expert lied on the witness stand, but his fight for
1:53
Speaker 7: justice is far from over.
1:55
Speaker 4: Jimmy, Welcome to wrongful Conviction.
1:57
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
1:58
Speaker 5: Jason Bolden, his attorney, is here. Scott, welcome to ronful Conviction.
2:04
Speaker 8: Thank you for having us.
2:06
Speaker 5: And a very unusual occurrence is happening here at Wrongful
2:11
Speaker 5: Conviction today. This is a great pleasure for me and
2:14
Speaker 5: an honor to have you hear your honor because we
2:17
Speaker 5: have the honorable Leslie Abrams here, federal judge from Georgia.
2:21
Speaker 4: So judge welcome, Thank you very much.
2:25
Speaker 5: So Jimmy, Yes, Now, first of all, let me just contextualize,
2:29
Speaker 5: because obviously you can't see, but Jimmy may well be
2:35
Speaker 5: the handsomest guy we've ever had on the show.
2:37
Speaker 4: He's six' four and looks like a movie. Star but
2:41
Speaker 4: you were actually a.
2:42
Speaker 5: Pitcher, yes in The cubs organization is an interesting story,
2:46
Speaker 5: Too BUT i want to go.
2:47
Speaker 4: Further back than, that it's. Okay so where did you grow?
2:50
Speaker 4: Up how did you grow?
2:51
Speaker 5: Up how was your life before it really was going
2:56
Speaker 5: to a place that all of, us like, me as a,
2:57
Speaker 5: CHILD i fantasized.
2:58
Speaker 4: ABOUT i wanted that. LIFE i wanted to play for
3:00
Speaker 4: the for The.
3:01
Speaker 5: Mets, yes quite, okay and then it turned and then
3:04
Speaker 5: it turned into a horror.
3:05
Speaker 3: Show but how did it? Start, Yeah i'll take you
3:07
Speaker 3: back to the very. BEGINNINGS i am originally born In, Dawson.
3:11
Speaker 3: Georgia we left WHEN i WAS i say, Two my
3:15
Speaker 3: mother says three years, old So i'll go with. Three
3:18
Speaker 3: we left and went To, Tampa. Florida and In Tampa,
3:21
Speaker 3: florida that's WHERE i was raised. AT i went through
3:23
Speaker 3: The Tampa Florida school, System Hillsborough County School. SYSTEM i
3:27
Speaker 3: played sports in The Tampa bay. Area, football, baseball, basketball
3:32
Speaker 3: just a variety of sports.
3:34
Speaker 5: Where you were starting the other sports as. Well imagine
3:36
Speaker 5: you were a starring. Baseball i'm not gonna say. STAR
3:38
Speaker 5: i Mean i'm gonna be humble and SAY i was
3:41
Speaker 5: playing amongst, great great athletes In, Tampa. FLORIDA i think
3:46
Speaker 5: the best in the world at those. Times in the
3:49
Speaker 5: in the seventies early.
3:50
Speaker 4: Eighties, yes so you had A i mean your childhood was.
3:54
Speaker 3: Good, childhood childhood was, Great, Okay, Yeah Tampa. FLORIDA i
3:59
Speaker 3: strongly let people Know i'm from The Bay area and
4:04
Speaker 3: basically what you're seeing today is just representation of EVERYTHING
4:08
Speaker 3: i came up Through Tampa. Florida, coaches my family, members great,
4:11
Speaker 3: aunts great, uncles i, mean, cousins just my entire. Life
4:15
Speaker 3: i've been around nothing but positivity and just total just
4:19
Speaker 3: total acceptance and uplifting of people that were just good.
4:22
Speaker 3: People and That's Tampa. Florida so you chose, baseball, yes
4:27
Speaker 3: how to go from? There, WELL i got drafted out
4:29
Speaker 3: Of Tampa Baifacational Technico High school in nineteen eighty four
4:32
Speaker 3: by The Chicago. Cubs and it's a little ironic because
4:36
Speaker 3: playing in nineteen seventy, six seventy seven with The Little League,
4:40
Speaker 3: CUBS i told my, coach Coach Zeke god bless his.
4:43
Speaker 3: Soul Coach Zeke Sai jimmy c you are the best
4:46
Speaker 3: in the. World and that was one of his favorite.
4:48
Speaker 3: Things he tell, guys you're the best in the. World
4:50
Speaker 3: AND i told, HIM i, Said, Coach i'm gonna play
4:52
Speaker 3: for the Real cubs one, day and he, SAID i
4:55
Speaker 3: know you. Will that was in nineteen seventy. Six so
4:58
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty FOUR i got drafted by The Chicago
5:00
Speaker 3: cubs AND i played minor league with The Chicago cubs
5:03
Speaker 3: for four. Seasons and out of those four, SEASONS i
5:06
Speaker 3: had some good, seasons met some good. Guys played nineteen
5:10
Speaker 3: eighty four With Greg maddox In, Pakeville. Kentucky played With Jamie,
5:14
Speaker 3: Moarrior Joe. Girardi just a lot of, names a lot
5:18
Speaker 3: of GUYS i played with and had opportunities to just
5:22
Speaker 3: interact with throughout my.
5:23
Speaker 5: Career and for people who are listening who may not
5:25
Speaker 5: be baseball fans or maybe, young these.
5:27
Speaker 4: Are legends that we're talking.
5:28
Speaker 5: About you're just reeling off names that are, like you,
5:30
Speaker 5: know The hall Of, fame one after the. Other so
5:33
Speaker 5: there you are waiting to get the call to go
5:36
Speaker 5: to get get tapped on the shoulder and go to
5:38
Speaker 5: the big, leagues you, know and where The cubs uniform
5:41
Speaker 5: and regular field and the whole, thing and then everything
5:44
Speaker 5: goes horribly wrong in a way that, IS i think
5:48
Speaker 5: to the average person. Unimaginable, yes and in your. Case
5:53
Speaker 5: it's very clear that what happened to you was deliberate
5:56
Speaker 5: on the part of not just one, person but several people,
5:59
Speaker 5: who for Reasons i'll never, understand just decided that they
6:03
Speaker 5: were going to pin, horrendous inexplicable. Crime yes on, you
6:09
Speaker 5: did you know anything about this. Crime it's a crime
6:11
Speaker 5: that happened In West, virginia.
6:12
Speaker 3: Right, yes this crime happened in nineteen eighty. SEVEN i
6:16
Speaker 3: was playing for The Charleston wheelers In, Charleston West virginia
6:20
Speaker 3: during the. Season i'm going to say In may the
6:24
Speaker 3: first crime, occurred and then In june the next crime,
6:28
Speaker 3: occurred and the crime was a sexual assault against one
6:32
Speaker 3: white woman In may and another white woman In.
6:34
Speaker 5: June you left that an important details were talking about
6:36
Speaker 5: at eighty six year old woman and her, daughter, right
6:39
Speaker 5: a sixty year old woman.
6:41
Speaker 3: Right in one, case eighty something year old woman and
6:44
Speaker 3: her daughter was. Assaulted her mother was beat, up but
6:48
Speaker 3: the woman was. Assaulted in the other, case the woman
6:51
Speaker 3: was about forty something and she was assaulted and beat.
6:54
Speaker 3: Up and this all came about the description that the
6:58
Speaker 3: women gave were that this guy was a light to
7:01
Speaker 3: medium Complexion African american about six foot, tall.
7:06
Speaker 5: Right and for people listening at, home that wouldn't be
7:09
Speaker 5: a way THAT i would describe.
7:10
Speaker 4: You.
7:10
Speaker 5: JIMMY i, Mean jimmy is a dark Skinned African american,
7:14
Speaker 5: man was about six y four and looks. Taller so,
7:16
Speaker 5: yeah the description was pretty. Off and it was a
7:20
Speaker 5: description that was given by more than one. Person and
7:22
Speaker 5: we know descriptions can are not. Perfect the mind is
7:25
Speaker 5: not a. Camera but still that didn't match, up, no.
7:28
Speaker 3: Sir and during the, SEASON i, mean when these crimes,
7:31
Speaker 3: occurred these horrific crimes, occurred The Charleston Police department was
7:37
Speaker 3: basically gathering information and rounding up blacks from all over the.
7:42
Speaker 3: City there were over one hundred AND i believe one
7:45
Speaker 3: hundred and forty or one hundred Plus African americans male that
7:49
Speaker 3: were rounded up and taken to the police department fingerprinted
7:52
Speaker 3: photos and things of that, order including myself in about
7:56
Speaker 3: six black guys off the baseball. Team all of us
8:00
Speaker 3: were actually taken to the police department fingerprint. Photoed they
8:04
Speaker 3: told me nothing. Match this was in nineteen eighty. Seven
8:07
Speaker 3: fast forward to nineteen eighty, NINE i was confronted by
8:11
Speaker 3: policemen From Charleston West virginia saying that my prints now. Match,
8:16
Speaker 3: well one print now matches from a crime, scene but
8:19
Speaker 3: it no longer was a thumb. Print it was now
8:21
Speaker 3: a left middle. Fingerprint they just made a mistake on
8:24
Speaker 3: THE i guess the definition of the print or characterizing the.
8:28
Speaker 4: Print so that's what connects, this, Right, yes so they.
8:33
Speaker 3: And they said they rechecked my prints and now they matched.
8:37
Speaker 4: Magically, yes they had the wrong, finger they had the
8:40
Speaker 4: wrong Dest.
8:40
Speaker 3: What they said at the time that the individuals that
8:42
Speaker 3: were in the department didn't have the knowledge of doing.
8:45
Speaker 4: Fingerprints, well and that's an interesting. Thing It's.
8:48
Speaker 5: SCOT i like to turn to you for a second,
8:49
Speaker 5: too because we know that the standards that are maintained
8:54
Speaker 5: for fingerprint analysis are shoddy at, best, right.
8:59
Speaker 4: Especially in smaller towns across the.
9:01
Speaker 8: Country The, Cherlston West Virginia Police department or the state
9:05
Speaker 8: police in this, case they had the. Expertise they certainly.
9:08
Speaker 8: Did they just had a bad. Actor the chief zerologists
9:12
Speaker 8: for that, department who had been there for several, years
9:16
Speaker 8: was known within the department to either falsify test results
9:20
Speaker 8: or to be sloppy with his, analysis as well as
9:24
Speaker 8: in his. Testimony so you have the test, results, right
9:27
Speaker 8: they get turned over to the. Prosecutor. Right sometimes they
9:30
Speaker 8: get challenged by defense council. Experts sometimes they. Don't most
9:34
Speaker 8: offenders don't have enough money to hire an expert to
9:37
Speaker 8: do that type of critical. Analysis but in this particular
9:40
Speaker 8: case at The State department, lab it would later be
9:43
Speaker 8: found that the chief erroologist was not only, indicted but
9:47
Speaker 8: investigated at the federal level as well as at the state,
9:50
Speaker 8: level and found that he had not, misinterpreted but purposely
9:55
Speaker 8: testified falsely on the stand of at least twenty more
9:59
Speaker 8: in individuals Like, jimmy and then secondly that there was
10:03
Speaker 8: knowledge of others that he worked with that he falsified
10:06
Speaker 8: test results in order to make the analysis match that
10:10
Speaker 8: the prosecutors used in state court to convict individuals Like Jimmy.
10:14
Speaker 4: Gardner, Right and That's i'm so glad you're talking.
10:16
Speaker 5: About this Was Fred, zey right in absolutely, infamous terrible
10:21
Speaker 5: let to talk about a bad. ACTOR i, mean that's too, kind,
10:24
Speaker 5: Right this is a guy who was. Vicious he was
10:28
Speaker 5: deliberately willfully not BECAUSE i think, so not BECAUSE i say,
10:31
Speaker 5: so but because he was convicted of doing. That it
10:33
Speaker 5: was sence to four to twelve years in. Prison that's
10:35
Speaker 5: such a troubling fact, because as you, said what is
10:38
Speaker 5: a jury to?
10:39
Speaker 7: Do?
10:40
Speaker 5: Right they may may not be sophisticated. People they're probably not.
10:43
Speaker 5: Scientists you got a guy Like, jimmy Who's i'm guessing
10:47
Speaker 5: you were represented by a public defender at that, Time.
10:50
Speaker 3: Yes public defunder that was his first, case.
10:53
Speaker 4: First case out of law.
10:54
Speaker 5: School, yes, Sir, Wow, okay that's a plot twist. Too
10:58
Speaker 5: so what is either of you, guys or even You Judge,
11:02
Speaker 5: abrams what is a person to? Do like if you're
11:05
Speaker 5: sitting at home and you're, going, well IF i go
11:06
Speaker 5: on a jury and a guy gets up there AND
11:08
Speaker 5: i don't know if he's lying or, not but there's
11:10
Speaker 5: nobody to tell me any, different how is somebody even
11:13
Speaker 5: supposed to get to the Truth when you have a
11:14
Speaker 5: guy like that who's up there Going i'm accredited from
11:17
Speaker 5: this university AND i went to, this AND i went to,
11:19
Speaker 5: that what's a person to?
11:20
Speaker 6: Do from my point of, view that's where the pre
11:23
Speaker 6: trial process comes. In that's why we have the adversarial.
11:27
Speaker 6: System if you have a good defense, ATTORNEY i want
11:29
Speaker 6: to step back and speak a couple of steps back
11:31
Speaker 6: Because i've read the filings in this, case BUT i
11:34
Speaker 6: wasn't involved in this. Case but WHEN i look at,
11:36
Speaker 6: it to even get to the point where you put
11:38
Speaker 6: it before the, jury that's why we have all these
11:40
Speaker 6: processes in. Place that's why prosecutors have a duty to
11:44
Speaker 6: turn over any type of exculpatory. Information the prosecutor's. Office
11:48
Speaker 6: everyone knew about Fred zane before this trial even. Happened
11:51
Speaker 6: so that's a Clear brad that's a Clear brady. Violation
11:54
Speaker 6: and as far AS i know that information was never turned,
11:56
Speaker 6: over you know that yourseroologists has had problems and have
12:00
Speaker 6: the credentials that he's supposed to have if you're going
12:03
Speaker 6: to use. It first of, ALL i was a federal
12:05
Speaker 6: prosecutor at one. POINT i would not have used that.
12:07
Speaker 6: Information but if you are going to use, it you
12:09
Speaker 6: have a duty to tell the other. Side if your
12:11
Speaker 6: client is telling you they told me that the blood
12:14
Speaker 6: type didn't, match and now it, does then the defense
12:18
Speaker 6: attorney should have investigated. That so when you're talking about
12:21
Speaker 6: how does a jury know what to? Do we do
12:24
Speaker 6: have the system when it works, right when it's not
12:27
Speaker 6: deliberately being. Undermined has these stops in place where that
12:32
Speaker 6: testimony never should have come. In a jury never should
12:34
Speaker 6: have been confronted with.
12:36
Speaker 5: That they had no chance of getting it. Right i'm
12:38
Speaker 5: guessing you would probably, say as one of the exon
12:41
Speaker 5: oraigation strong as he, said you, KNOW i would have convicted,
12:44
Speaker 5: me you, know with the evidence that was presented and
12:46
Speaker 5: the lack of defense that my attorney, MOUNTED i would
12:48
Speaker 5: have convicted.
12:49
Speaker 4: ME i, mean maybe you feel the same way in your.
12:51
Speaker 3: Case, NO i don't feel that. Way my jury deliberated
12:55
Speaker 3: for four and a half. Days, wow they were out
12:58
Speaker 3: and they'd always come back and say were, deadlocked and
13:01
Speaker 3: in the beginning of that deadlock was in favor of
13:03
Speaker 3: me from, US i guess. Inquiring but that process went
13:08
Speaker 3: on for four and a half.
13:09
Speaker 4: Days that's got to be four and a half days
13:12
Speaker 4: of absolute. TORTURE i, mean as it.
13:16
Speaker 3: Was but to hear my attorney, saying you, know this
13:19
Speaker 3: is in our, favor.
13:21
Speaker 4: And how would he Know he just got out of
13:23
Speaker 4: law school that men.
13:24
Speaker 3: Day to come back with a decision of guilty on one,
13:28
Speaker 3: case not guilty on the other, case which WAS i
13:31
Speaker 3: believe a compromise verdict was that was. DEVASTATING i mean
13:36
Speaker 3: it even gets worse than. That to add salt to the,
13:39
Speaker 3: INJURY i go back to the county jail and someone
13:43
Speaker 3: has broken into my cell and took my family, photo
13:46
Speaker 3: my pictures of my, family my address book with my.
13:50
Speaker 3: Numbers they've called my lady friend at the, time you,
13:54
Speaker 3: know that was compounded with the guilty verdic that was
13:58
Speaker 3: a rough.
13:58
Speaker 4: Day oh my. God you.
14:00
Speaker 5: Know one of the THINGS i harp on and that obsess,
14:02
Speaker 5: on is that we have an unequal system of justice
14:05
Speaker 5: in this.
14:05
Speaker 4: Country right with.
14:06
Speaker 8: The presumption though most of us who are on juris
14:10
Speaker 8: or just the average man and, woman we presume the
14:14
Speaker 8: stability of this institution called, justice called, Prosecutors states attorney's,
14:20
Speaker 8: OFFICES us attorney's, offices we presume we rely on it
14:24
Speaker 8: in those systems if they're not reliable or if those
14:27
Speaker 8: systems break, down and they break down more often than we.
14:31
Speaker 8: Think in regard to a case Like Jimmy, garden there
14:34
Speaker 8: was a complete breakdown of fairness and justice and an
14:37
Speaker 8: even handed. Approach whether it was the, prosecutor whether it
14:41
Speaker 8: was a public defender who first case was a double
14:44
Speaker 8: assault case like, this whether it was the judge who
14:48
Speaker 8: forced him to go to trial before this young defense
14:50
Speaker 8: attorney was. Ready whether it was the prison system and
14:53
Speaker 8: the guards who worked the courtroom who went back and
14:56
Speaker 8: presumably took and stole his, stuff we can't zoom justice
15:00
Speaker 8: in every. Jurisdiction there are justice systems that are unjust
15:05
Speaker 8: against whether they're, young poor black men or young poor
15:09
Speaker 8: white men were the system doesn't. Work i'm not surprised
15:12
Speaker 8: That Jimmy gardner was convicted because he was convicted before
15:16
Speaker 8: he sat down and even tried the, case because those
15:19
Speaker 8: systems not only, failed but those systems were unjust and
15:23
Speaker 8: hell been on being unjust towards. Him And i'm comfortable
15:26
Speaker 8: saying that as his attorney post conviction on his.
15:29
Speaker 4: Part where you didn't have a post, release, rather.
15:31
Speaker 5: You didn't have a hope in, HELL i mean you
15:33
Speaker 5: really between all the FACTORS A scott just pointed, OUT i,
15:37
Speaker 5: mean you were.
15:38
Speaker 4: Done it's actually a miracle that they deliberated for four
15:40
Speaker 4: and a half.
15:41
Speaker 5: DAYS i would have been less surprised if you said
15:43
Speaker 5: four and a half hours or forty five, minutes because
15:46
Speaker 5: they were not presented with the facts at. All SO
15:49
Speaker 5: i give some credit to the jury that they actually
15:51
Speaker 5: spent that much, time but that didn't help. YOU i,
16:05
Speaker 5: mean what an extreme. Right you're going from having all
16:10
Speaker 5: star dreams from the dream LIKE i said that many of,
16:13
Speaker 5: us Most american boys grow up with, right which is
16:16
Speaker 5: playing baseball in the major, leagues which was actually within,
16:19
Speaker 5: reach and all of a, sudden you're going from pretty
16:23
Speaker 5: close to the tippy top to the absolute depths of.
16:28
Speaker 4: Hell can you describe the? MOMENT i, mean.
16:31
Speaker 5: You were there for four and a half, days twisting
16:35
Speaker 5: in the. Wind every day you showed up in court
16:38
Speaker 5: wishing hope and praying whatever your thing. Is then you
16:42
Speaker 5: not only get, convicted but sentenced to essentially life, sentence,
16:45
Speaker 5: right one hundred and ten years in, PRISONEL i, mean
16:48
Speaker 5: what was that?
16:48
Speaker 4: Moment?
16:49
Speaker 3: LIKE i, Mean i'll back it up a little. Bit
16:52
Speaker 3: WHEN i first arrived Into, Charleston West. VIRGINIA i can
16:57
Speaker 3: still recall all the guys in the, jail says telling.
17:01
Speaker 3: Me they called Me. Florida they, Said. Florida you can't win.
17:04
Speaker 3: Here you just don't go to trial and win. Here
17:07
Speaker 3: And i'm telling the Guys i'm not guilty of these. Crimes.
17:10
Speaker 3: Man they, said, man but you can't. Win you don't
17:13
Speaker 3: win In Charleston West. Virginia and at this, Time i'm
17:17
Speaker 3: knowing THAT i did not do these, crimes AND i
17:20
Speaker 3: don't have that worry that you guys are talking. About
17:23
Speaker 3: you guys are talking.
17:24
Speaker 4: About you.
17:25
Speaker 3: KNOW i had the prosecution offer ten years to, me
17:29
Speaker 3: and my lawyer, said he, said Mister, garden this is
17:32
Speaker 3: the best deal that you will ever. Get these are
17:35
Speaker 3: ten years for these type of. Charges they, said you
17:37
Speaker 3: go to, trial you'll get ten times. This he, said
17:41
Speaker 3: you'll get beyond. That he, said this is the best.
17:44
Speaker 3: Deal he tried everything to get me to take a.
17:45
Speaker 3: DEAL i, SAID i didn't do the. Crimes i'm not
17:48
Speaker 3: guilty of these. Crimes i'm not pleading guilty to. Anything
17:53
Speaker 3: and those ten years turned into one hundred and ten
17:58
Speaker 3: years ONCE i was. Convicted and going through that process
18:02
Speaker 3: UNTIL i was actually convicted AND i heard the jury say,
18:07
Speaker 3: GUILTY i did not think THAT i would be found.
18:12
Speaker 3: Guilty that's what made it such a shock going, back,
18:17
Speaker 3: because AS i, say the attorney's telling, me the longer
18:20
Speaker 3: they stay, out this is excellent for. Us you, know
18:23
Speaker 3: this is. Excellent they can't come to an agreement and
18:25
Speaker 3: the judge steady sends them. Back you gotta go. Back they,
18:28
Speaker 3: said we, judge we're. Dead we're at a position we
18:30
Speaker 3: can't move. Forward you gotta go. Back how long is a?
18:33
Speaker 3: Trial probably a, week and in the END i was
18:37
Speaker 3: actually convicted and sent it to one hundred and ten,
18:39
Speaker 3: years which was a, shocker to say the.
18:43
Speaker 5: Least to go from that and to come to where
18:45
Speaker 5: you are, now how did you manage to bounce?
18:49
Speaker 4: Back how did you manage to? Persevere how did you
18:51
Speaker 4: manage to?
18:52
Speaker 3: FIGHT i, mean it's a, process and that's not a
18:55
Speaker 3: process that's done. Overnight at that, point AFTER i was
18:59
Speaker 3: CON i MEAN i was in, shock BUT i knew
19:03
Speaker 3: in my MIND i was in for a. FIGHT i
19:07
Speaker 3: knew that there's no time for crying and laying. Down
19:10
Speaker 3: that's just the individual THAT i am and my. Upbringing you,
19:14
Speaker 3: know it's not time to really cry and. SULK i
19:17
Speaker 3: know it's time to fight for my. Life AND i
19:20
Speaker 3: GUESS i had been bred for this. Adversity adversity is
19:26
Speaker 3: something That i've had to overcome and basically outlast my entire.
19:33
Speaker 3: Life and this guilty, verdict this guilty, verdict was a
19:38
Speaker 3: slam to, me BUT i just know it changed my entire.
19:42
Speaker 3: Life the young lady THAT i was dating at the.
19:45
Speaker 3: TIME i had to let her know that our relationship
19:48
Speaker 3: was over and let her know That i'm In, Charleston
19:51
Speaker 3: West virginia with my life basically just taking from, me
19:54
Speaker 3: AND i gotta. Fight SO i ended a relationship in
19:58
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty well nineteen ninety that began in nineteen eighty,
20:03
Speaker 3: three and that was a difficult, decision BUT i just
20:08
Speaker 3: ended that BECAUSE i knew Now i'm In, Charleston West,
20:10
Speaker 3: virginia a young man From, Tampa. Florida i'm used to
20:14
Speaker 3: being in a totally different environment and Now I'm, Charleston West,
20:19
Speaker 3: virginia where it's ninety eight percent white In West virginia
20:23
Speaker 3: and two percent black at that, time which was that
20:28
Speaker 3: was major to. Me BUT i have to put in
20:32
Speaker 3: my mind this is live or. Die SO i can
20:36
Speaker 3: still recall in the courtroom telling my mother and my,
20:39
Speaker 3: grandmother don't. Cry you, Know i'm telling don't. Cry do
20:43
Speaker 3: not let them see you. Cry don't show. Tears i'm
20:46
Speaker 3: not showing tears at this. Moment this is a time
20:49
Speaker 3: THAT i must be, strong AND i wanted them to be,
20:51
Speaker 3: strong SO i just remained strong for. Them mostly of,
20:55
Speaker 3: course WHEN i got back to the, CELL i had
20:57
Speaker 3: to let it. Out but you, KNOW i, mean it's almost.
21:04
Speaker 3: Indescribable it.
21:07
Speaker 5: IS i, mean it's impossible for any of us to understand.
21:11
Speaker 5: It so you end up going to maximum security prison
21:15
Speaker 5: In West.
21:15
Speaker 4: Virginia, yes which prison did they send you? To and
21:18
Speaker 4: how violent was?
21:19
Speaker 5: It even among maximum security, prisons there are some that
21:23
Speaker 5: are more chaotic and more.
21:25
Speaker 4: Violent so what was your.
21:27
Speaker 3: Experience, well WHEN i first went into The West virginia prison,
21:31
Speaker 3: SYSTEM i went to The West Virginia penitentiary In, Moundsville West,
21:34
Speaker 3: virginia and this penitentiary was actually declared unlivable at the.
21:41
Speaker 3: TIME i guess they were in the process of closing
21:43
Speaker 3: the prison. Down.
21:44
Speaker 4: Unlivable that's an interesting, word.
21:46
Speaker 3: Yeah because it had been deemed just horrible the conditions and.
21:51
Speaker 3: Everything AND i still remember the DAY i arrived at
21:55
Speaker 3: the prison and ALL i could do was just kind
22:00
Speaker 3: of stand back on the wall and look at the
22:04
Speaker 3: different faces of. INDIVIDUALS i, Mean I'm i'm From, Tampa.
22:07
Speaker 3: Florida i'm in an ENVIRONMENT i know no, One and
22:11
Speaker 3: you have, skinheads arian, brotherhoods motorcycle, games, cluecutsklant you got
22:16
Speaker 3: a number of gangs within this. Prison and it may
22:21
Speaker 3: have been out of fifteen hundred, prisoners it may have
22:24
Speaker 3: been a hundred black, guys may. NOT i don't even
22:26
Speaker 3: think it was one hundred black. Guys it was a different.
22:30
Speaker 3: World it was a, very very different. World the majority
22:35
Speaker 3: of the black guys, WERE i musta, say a little
22:38
Speaker 3: subservient to a degree because they didn't want any. Trouble you,
22:42
Speaker 3: know it was certain hits being sent out on. INDIVIDUALS
22:46
Speaker 3: i mean it was a actual. Hits oh, yeah oh.
22:50
Speaker 3: Sure and it was just a completely different world for
22:56
Speaker 3: me at that. Time and my first objective WAS i
23:00
Speaker 3: gotta get to the law. LIBRARY i gotta learn this. Law,
23:03
Speaker 3: UNFORTUNATELY i was encountered by an individual that ultimately led
23:09
Speaker 3: to me going to lock up for a little. Bit
23:12
Speaker 3: SO i spent a few years in lock up over
23:15
Speaker 3: an INCIDENT i don't choose to speak about, today but
23:18
Speaker 3: it was a fight that turned into a little bit.
23:20
Speaker 3: More and next thing you, Know i'm on lock up
23:24
Speaker 3: for a period of. Years and what is that lock
23:26
Speaker 3: up is punter, segregation, right and on punter segregation In,
23:31
Speaker 3: Moundsville West Virginia. Penitentiary it's worse than the mainline population
23:37
Speaker 3: it was pretty. Rough you had officers that had. Shotguns
23:41
Speaker 3: there was a couple of shotguns on every. Section it
23:45
Speaker 3: seems like shotgun, here shotgun over, here, shotgun, shotgun, Shotgun
23:50
Speaker 3: and you're on the inside and it's just all this this,
23:54
Speaker 3: steel these little. CAGES i can touch all four walls
23:58
Speaker 3: by just reaching out and touching the walls from north
24:01
Speaker 3: to southeast to. West and the sale was that little
24:05
Speaker 3: with the little, sink toilet and the, bed AND i
24:08
Speaker 3: stayed over there for a period of, time and that
24:12
Speaker 3: gave me an opportunity to really hone in on WHO
24:15
Speaker 3: i was and WHO i. AM i started, READING i started.
24:20
Speaker 3: STUDYING i made my way to the law library versus
24:24
Speaker 3: going out to work. Out you have an, option you
24:26
Speaker 3: can work, out or you can go to the law.
24:28
Speaker 3: Library so my law library time started about two or
24:31
Speaker 3: three in the, morning SO i would go to the law.
24:33
Speaker 3: Library and it's ironic that one of The Arian brotherhood,
24:39
Speaker 3: guys he taught me how to, shepherdize taught me how
24:43
Speaker 3: to go in and read all different cases and familiarize
24:46
Speaker 3: myself with the legal. Process he really helped me gain
24:50
Speaker 3: a foundation in. Law on lock.
24:52
Speaker 4: Up that's that for a, second that's kind of.
24:57
Speaker 3: Amazing that Was that was my first. Encounter AND i
25:01
Speaker 3: always tell, people you, Know i'm indebted to this, guy.
25:04
Speaker 5: An arian brotherhood guy teaching one of the few black
25:07
Speaker 5: guys the maximum security prison In West virginia about the
25:11
Speaker 5: law is something worth spending a moment.
25:14
Speaker 4: ON i, mean this Is do you remember this guy's, name.
25:17
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure Joker Marcus. Cockrum we became the best of.
25:21
Speaker 3: Friends from not knowing anything to he taking the time
25:24
Speaker 3: out to go over with me in this law library
25:27
Speaker 3: about similar, cases reading up on, this understanding the different
25:32
Speaker 3: writs and, filings and you, KNOW i, mean it was.
25:36
Speaker 3: Priceless AND i can still hear him, saying you will
25:41
Speaker 3: not do a lot of time on this because this is.
25:45
Speaker 3: Crazy your case will be one of the biggest cases
25:48
Speaker 3: in the state Of West. Virginia and all he used
25:51
Speaker 3: to talk about, was, man they're gonna pay you so much.
25:53
Speaker 3: Money that was what he was. Saying and we actually
25:57
Speaker 3: we studied so much and we really became good. Friends
26:01
Speaker 3: behind that.
26:02
Speaker 4: Was he still.
26:02
Speaker 3: In he's still.
26:03
Speaker 4: In so you were moved around to a few different.
26:06
Speaker 3: Presents let me, see From Moundsville Western. Penitentiary we left
26:11
Speaker 3: there in nineteen ninety, five they closed the prison. Down
26:14
Speaker 3: SO i Left Moundsville Western penitentiary In march of nineteen
26:19
Speaker 3: ninety five AND i went To Mount Olive Correctional complex
26:23
Speaker 3: in Mount, Olive West. VIRGINIA i stayed At Mount Olive
26:26
Speaker 3: Correctional complex for a period OF i don't, know maybe,
26:30
Speaker 3: TWO i don't, know seventeen, sixteen seventeen, years BECAUSE i
26:35
Speaker 3: Left Mount olive in two thousand and eleven AND i
26:40
Speaker 3: went To Huttonsville Correctional. CENTER i Left huttonsville and went
26:44
Speaker 3: To Northern Correctional. Facility THEN i went To Northern Correctional.
26:49
Speaker 3: Center THEN i came back To Mount Olive Correctional complex
26:54
Speaker 3: BEFORE i was, released and that was in twenty. SIXTEEN i, mean.
26:58
Speaker 5: You really had a tour of the worst places in
27:02
Speaker 5: sure that anyone can. Imagine let's take the twenty seven
27:06
Speaker 5: years you were. Incarcerated what was the worst thing that
27:09
Speaker 5: you saw that happened in all that.
27:11
Speaker 4: TIME i, mean.
27:14
Speaker 3: It's a lot of. Worse the worst happened At. Moundsville
27:20
Speaker 3: that was the. WORST i go back to the winter
27:23
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety three In moundsville on. Lockup i've never
27:28
Speaker 3: been that cold in my. Life all the windows in
27:32
Speaker 3: lockup are knocked. Out and this was prior to an
27:37
Speaker 3: incident that happened in nineteen eighty. Six it was a
27:39
Speaker 3: riot there in nineteen eighty six and the windows were never.
27:43
Speaker 3: Replaced what, Yes so all of these windows are knocked,
27:47
Speaker 3: out And i'm on the fourth, TIER i, believe on,
27:50
Speaker 3: lockup and the snow is just blowing in and it's just.
27:55
Speaker 3: COLD i got all the CLOTHES i, GOT i got
27:58
Speaker 3: all my clothes. On i'm so cold THAT i don't
28:02
Speaker 3: get up out of bed to eat for a few.
28:04
Speaker 3: DAYS i remember writing in my, journal this is the
28:07
Speaker 3: first TIME i ate oat. MEAL i was so hungry
28:10
Speaker 3: with you. KNOW i got up after like day two
28:12
Speaker 3: or three and ate oat. Meal that was. It but
28:15
Speaker 3: it was so cold that the toilet was literally. Ice
28:22
Speaker 3: in order for me to use the, facility to use the,
28:24
Speaker 3: RESTROOM i had to break the ice with my. Shank
28:29
Speaker 3: i'd used my, knife my shank to break the ice
28:32
Speaker 3: in order to use the. TOILET i had never been
28:36
Speaker 3: that cold in my. Life AND i, pitched AND i
28:39
Speaker 3: pitched In, Wisconsin, Appleton, wisconsin right off Of Lake, michigan
28:44
Speaker 3: AND i remember being cold off of That, Lake, michigan
28:50
Speaker 3: AND i thought that was the, coldest but UNTIL i
28:52
Speaker 3: went To, Moundsville West virginia that nineteen ninety three. Winter
28:57
Speaker 3: it was so. COLD i kept myself warm by talking and.
29:00
Speaker 3: Yelling just it was. Torture and you gotta try. To
29:05
Speaker 3: you gotta try, TO i, guess yell and keep, moving
29:08
Speaker 3: get to stay. Warm, yeah that was pretty. Rough that
29:12
Speaker 3: was the roughest. Time and then on top of, THAT i,
29:15
Speaker 3: mean there's stabbings over there every every, day if not
29:17
Speaker 3: every other. Day there's so many, gangs there's so many
29:19
Speaker 3: hits being sent out in this in this little, area
29:24
Speaker 3: and you got stabbings going. On you have the officers
29:27
Speaker 3: using the pump. Shotguns i'm still hearing the click. Boom
29:31
Speaker 3: that's that's that's the sound shooting. Guys they'll make that,
29:35
Speaker 3: warning they say they make a warning, shot but they'll
29:37
Speaker 3: actually shoot the buck shots into the. AREA i still
29:41
Speaker 3: remember the guy, saying the next one will get. YOU
29:43
Speaker 3: i won't miss with the next. One the ring from
29:47
Speaker 3: that shotgun going, off And i'm crawling on the, ground
29:50
Speaker 3: just crawling to try to get away from, this this this,
29:53
Speaker 3: situation because you're not expecting nothing like. That to, happen
29:58
Speaker 3: shooting going on with then lock. UP i, mean but
30:03
Speaker 3: the stablings are happening so so, frequent and the officers
30:06
Speaker 3: are shooting to stop the stab MEANS i mean not justifying,
30:10
Speaker 3: it but it was just Mad lands to. Me i'm,
30:13
Speaker 3: Like i'm in a, crazy crazy. Spot SO i had
30:16
Speaker 3: to take my whole psyche to another. LEVEL i am
30:19
Speaker 3: in survival. Mode i'm gonna make it out of. HERE
30:23
Speaker 3: i still remember That i'm gonna make it out of.
30:25
Speaker 3: Here i'm saying, Myself i'm writing this, Down i'm gonna
30:27
Speaker 3: make it out of. Here i'm not going to succumb to.
30:30
Speaker 3: This and you, KNOW i had that in my writing
30:33
Speaker 3: and my, journal BUT i kept myself, active you, know
30:36
Speaker 3: and that's WHEN i would go to the library AND
30:38
Speaker 3: i come, back you, know even While i'm studying the
30:40
Speaker 3: law and getting all the INFORMATION i, CAN i started
30:44
Speaker 3: reading a lot of different. Books i'm reading up On, Catholicism, Buddhism, Rostafarianism, Islam,
30:53
Speaker 3: christianity The Bob Da. Vita i'm reading EVERYTHING i can
30:57
Speaker 3: read and understand in different. Faiths And i'm also at
31:00
Speaker 3: this time doing all my other. Readings you, KNOW i
31:02
Speaker 3: always mentioned Doctor Victor frankle's Book Man search For, Meaning
31:06
Speaker 3: AND i always Mentioned James James allen as a man
31:09
Speaker 3: Thinking i'm just reading so much And i'm taking time
31:12
Speaker 3: out of my day to read. This reading was, like
31:15
Speaker 3: this is getting me through the.
31:16
Speaker 5: Day you're, freezing you're, starving and you're trying to avoid
31:23
Speaker 5: being stabbed and. Shot everything else going, OKAY i, MEAN.
31:28
Speaker 3: I, mean And i'll say, THIS i, mean it was
31:30
Speaker 3: a very it was very it was very racist in
31:33
Speaker 3: this in this. Prison so you never know when a
31:35
Speaker 3: hit may come your, way when when someone may come
31:37
Speaker 3: you and you don't have to even be the subject of.
31:40
Speaker 3: Intent you don't have to be that. Person you don't
31:42
Speaker 3: even know the. Person i'll never forget the one guy
31:46
Speaker 3: next to, me he wouldn't come out of the. Cell you,
31:49
Speaker 3: know it's guys that wouldn't come out and wouldn't go
31:52
Speaker 3: to shower and wouldn't come out of that. Cell and
31:55
Speaker 3: it's okay with the. Officers you used to stay in the,
31:57
Speaker 3: sell but it's guys that would not come out AND
31:59
Speaker 3: i AND i would go to. THEM i was, like,
32:01
Speaker 3: hey come on out to, sale come to the. Shower
32:03
Speaker 3: you have a showered, today you have a shower in a,
32:05
Speaker 3: week come on out of, there and you, know guys
32:08
Speaker 3: would literally, Say i'm not coming out there to be. Killed.
32:12
Speaker 5: Gudge let me ask, you BECAUSE i think there's something
32:15
Speaker 5: in The constitution about cruel and unusual, punishment how does
32:19
Speaker 5: this go on the scenario That jimmy is. Describing it
32:24
Speaker 5: must be what the founding fathers had in mind when
32:26
Speaker 5: they wrote.
32:26
Speaker 6: That, unfortunately this is a reality of the country we
32:30
Speaker 6: live in. Now, legally there would be a great uproar
32:33
Speaker 6: if we found or somebody made a big deal about
32:36
Speaker 6: how some of our elderly are being treated and assisted living.
32:39
Speaker 6: Homes BUT i guarantee you it would be a different
32:41
Speaker 6: situation where the law would react very differently for someone
32:44
Speaker 6: on the outside than they do when we're dealing with
32:46
Speaker 6: prisoners who sometimes we forget are still. Citizens they are Still,
32:50
Speaker 6: Americans they're still entitled to all of their constitutional. Rights and,
32:54
Speaker 6: so to answer the, question not, passionately but, legally there
32:58
Speaker 6: is a mechanism to address. That but is it, ADEQUATE
33:01
Speaker 6: i would say, no.
33:02
Speaker 5: The scenario That jimmy's describing in most, STATES i think
33:06
Speaker 5: if you treated your.
33:07
Speaker 4: Dog that, way go to, jail you go to. Jail
33:10
Speaker 4: you can't leave your.
33:11
Speaker 5: Dog in a tiny enclosure in freezing temperature sub freezing.
33:15
Speaker 5: Temperatures it's.
33:17
Speaker 6: Unconstable AND i, MEAN i will, say because of WHAT i,
33:20
Speaker 6: DO i have to, believe AND i do believe that
33:23
Speaker 6: there is a possibility of. Justice so this prison That
33:25
Speaker 6: jimmy was in was because of a legal case. Condemned
33:28
Speaker 6: now it was condemned six years before they closed, it
33:31
Speaker 6: but legally there was a case saying you cannot house
33:34
Speaker 6: people in these. Conditions what happens with the administration after
33:38
Speaker 6: that decision comes down is something entirely. Different SO i
33:42
Speaker 6: would certainly agree the laws to protect our animals are
33:44
Speaker 6: oftentime more stringent and more closely followed than we do
33:49
Speaker 6: to protect our brothers and. Sisters and that is a
33:51
Speaker 6: very big problem in this.
33:52
Speaker 3: Country it's so.
33:53
Speaker 5: Nuts right one, day you're just a person walking around
33:56
Speaker 5: the street with your, Rights but as soon as that
33:59
Speaker 5: switch goes off and you're caught up in the criminal justice,
34:01
Speaker 5: system you're not treated as a human being.
34:03
Speaker 4: Anymore that's got to, Change and when.
34:05
Speaker 6: We look at, it even in the most self serving,
34:07
Speaker 6: way for the most, part people are going to get
34:10
Speaker 6: out of prison at some. Point they're going to be
34:13
Speaker 6: in our, neighborhoods they're going to be in the, supermarkets
34:15
Speaker 6: they're going to be back in, society and if we
34:19
Speaker 6: have treated them as subhuman for however long they're, there
34:23
Speaker 6: we are going to reap the consequences of how they're
34:27
Speaker 6: going to react when they come. Out one of the
34:29
Speaker 6: THINGS i admire most About jimmy is that he'll say
34:31
Speaker 6: that even though he was in, jail his mind was never.
34:34
Speaker 4: There, well, unusual he is an unusual.
34:37
Speaker 6: Person but we really do have to step back and
34:40
Speaker 6: look at how we're treating. People even if you don't,
34:42
Speaker 6: care even if you did something bad AND i don't
34:45
Speaker 6: care about, you be selfish and understand that for the most,
34:48
Speaker 6: part they're going to come back out and then you're
34:50
Speaker 6: going to have.
34:50
Speaker 3: To deal with.
34:51
Speaker 6: It that's why we're doing re and treat work with
34:53
Speaker 6: people needing, jobs needing, housing all of these. Things we
34:56
Speaker 6: have to keep in mind that we are all part
34:58
Speaker 6: of the same society and we've all got live in.
35:00
Speaker 5: It we need to do, Better we need to do.
35:03
Speaker 5: Better we need to treat our people as. People, So,
35:07
Speaker 5: jimmy how did it? Transpire how'd you? Rebound how did
35:12
Speaker 5: you get. Out what was that moment like when you got?
35:15
Speaker 3: OUT i, MEAN i was. OVERJOYED i was released through
35:21
Speaker 3: the federal. COURTS i spent forty six months in federal
35:24
Speaker 3: court on top of a twenty three year in order
35:27
Speaker 3: to delay in state. Court and my mother Is Gladys.
35:32
Speaker 3: Gardner you, know my mom's a, very very praying, woman
35:35
Speaker 3: and she she has. VISIONS i was waiting up to
35:40
Speaker 3: six maybe five months at the, time and my mom, said,
35:42
Speaker 3: WELL i went in the closet and you're coming. Home
35:47
Speaker 3: you be getting ready to get your, rule and you're
35:49
Speaker 3: coming home this. Week she, says so go ahead and
35:50
Speaker 3: pack up. Everything AND i, said, Okay. MOM i was
35:54
Speaker 3: talking to her That, sunday AND i got the call
35:59
Speaker 3: On friday from my attorney telling me that the case
36:05
Speaker 3: had been, overturned conviction, vacated and either set for retrial or.
36:11
Speaker 3: Release AND i call and let my mother know. That That,
36:14
Speaker 3: FRIDAY i, Said, MAMA i got the, ruling but she
36:17
Speaker 3: already saw.
36:18
Speaker 4: It she saw a. Vision.
36:20
Speaker 3: Yeah LIKE i, said my mother's very very, praying very
36:25
Speaker 3: very prayer and. Spiritual AND i had been preparing For april,
36:29
Speaker 3: first seemed like all my, life every year that would go.
36:33
Speaker 3: BY i. PRAY i, Said, god please let me come
36:37
Speaker 3: home this. Year It's january, first AND i watched that
36:40
Speaker 3: ball drop right here In New. YORK i watched that ball,
36:44
Speaker 3: drop AND i, Say, god let this be my. Year one,
36:46
Speaker 3: Day i'm gonna go and watch that ball. Drop AND
36:49
Speaker 3: i said, that AND i believe that one. Wholeheartedly every,
36:56
Speaker 3: YEAR i would, Say, god let this be the. Year
36:59
Speaker 3: that's a few days went, by BUT i watched that ball,
37:02
Speaker 3: drop AND i watched that every. Year let this be my.
37:07
Speaker 3: Year AND i go through my years in, prison letting
37:10
Speaker 3: guys Know i'm going home this.
37:11
Speaker 5: Year well let's go back to, that, though because you
37:14
Speaker 5: actually bumped into a very principled judge who made a
37:19
Speaker 5: very strong ruling and an even stronger statement when he
37:24
Speaker 5: announced that.
37:25
Speaker 4: Your conviction was being.
37:27
Speaker 5: Overturned and you must have very special feelings for that.
37:31
Speaker 5: MAN i don't know, him But i'd like to meet
37:34
Speaker 5: him sometimes shoe his. Hand so can you talk about?
37:36
Speaker 3: That oh YES i, can with great. Pleasure you're speaking
37:43
Speaker 3: about The District Court Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin out The
37:47
Speaker 3: Southern district Of West. VIRGINIA i fouled my case into his.
37:50
Speaker 3: Court In june of twenty twelve And november of twenty,
37:57
Speaker 3: Thirteen Judge JOSEPH. R goodwin granted my petition and enabled
38:03
Speaker 3: me to come into federal, court which was a miracle
38:07
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i had no, standing no legal, standing AND i
38:10
Speaker 3: also filed under the denial of access to the, court
38:14
Speaker 3: denial of equal protection and due, process which aren't you,
38:17
Speaker 3: know issues that aren't cognizable in federal. Court you, know
38:19
Speaker 3: it has to be an issue dealing with constitution violation
38:23
Speaker 3: that emanated from your. Trial So i'm going in already knowing,
38:26
Speaker 3: this AND i tell YOU i placed one of my
38:31
Speaker 3: petitions into my filing BECAUSE i was asked to do
38:35
Speaker 3: that by a guy by the name of Courtnel. Day
38:37
Speaker 3: so he, said, man you got so many petitions you
38:39
Speaker 3: file in, court, man just go ahead and throw one.
38:40
Speaker 3: In let them know you have. Something SO i did,
38:43
Speaker 3: that But Judge goodwin denied my, petition but he granted
38:47
Speaker 3: me into federal court because of my exhibit of one
38:51
Speaker 3: of my state court. Petitions and at the end of the,
38:54
Speaker 3: Day Judge goodwin ruled THAT i had shown THAT i
38:58
Speaker 3: had issues that may want some relief in federal. Court
39:01
Speaker 3: so he's gonna give me that opportunity to present my
39:04
Speaker 3: petition to the court and get my case hurt for
39:07
Speaker 3: the first, time get my case reviewed for the first.
39:10
Speaker 3: Time this is the first time REVIEW i went in
39:12
Speaker 3: federal court under a d novo, review my first time
39:16
Speaker 3: getting a review in twenty four, years which was. Remarkable
39:23
Speaker 3: But Judge goodwin stated in his opinion THAT i had
39:28
Speaker 3: been in legal purgatory and that it had been a
39:32
Speaker 3: total miscarriage of, justice which were some very strong, words
39:36
Speaker 3: very strong. Words AND i just know that in order
39:39
Speaker 3: For Judge goodwin to have the courage to do that
39:43
Speaker 3: in the state Of West, virginia that took so much,
39:46
Speaker 3: Courage that took so MUCH i, MEAN i can't even
39:50
Speaker 3: express it to the. Audience and Within Judge goodwin's, OPINION i,
39:55
Speaker 3: mean he's right across the, hall even the same city
39:58
Speaker 3: as the state judge that sends me to one hundred
40:01
Speaker 3: and ten years and they're good. Friends.
40:03
Speaker 5: Wow and let me just read, something Because Judge holliday
40:08
Speaker 5: said That zane's That i'm quoting pattern and practice of
40:12
Speaker 5: misconduct completely undermined the validity and reliability of any forensic
40:17
Speaker 5: work he performed or, reported and that as a matter of,
40:21
Speaker 5: law any testimonial or documentary evidence offered By zane at
40:25
Speaker 5: any time in any criminal prosecution should be deemed, invalid,
40:30
Speaker 5: unreliable and inadmissible in determining whether to award a new
40:33
Speaker 5: trial in any subsequent habeas corpus preceding bam. Right SO
40:38
Speaker 5: i can ask the, judge it sounds to me like
40:40
Speaker 5: the judge was.
40:41
Speaker 6: Pissed that was from The Supreme court Of West, virginia and,
40:45
Speaker 6: yes he was very, upset and that should have formed
40:48
Speaker 6: the basis for an immediate, rehearing if not. Released that,
40:53
Speaker 6: DECISION i believe came out in ninety.
40:55
Speaker 3: Three november of nineteen ninety, Three so that.
40:59
Speaker 6: Ruling came out out saying that every person who had
41:02
Speaker 6: been prosecuted by or convicted by because of testimony From
41:06
Speaker 6: zay should get a. Rehearing, JIMMY i think was granted
41:10
Speaker 6: four more than.
41:11
Speaker 3: One of the real injustices.
41:13
Speaker 8: Here isn't Just zaane's deplorable and illegal. Behavior is that
41:20
Speaker 8: once That Supreme court did its investigation and ordered a
41:24
Speaker 8: new trial for not Just, jimmy but anyone who had
41:28
Speaker 8: been convicted based On zane's, evidence they either were going
41:32
Speaker 8: to be released or they would have to be, retried
41:36
Speaker 8: and the local prosecutors and these jurisdictions had to determine
41:40
Speaker 8: which one it was going to. Be the local prosecutors
41:43
Speaker 8: In jimmy's case decided that they were going to retry
41:45
Speaker 8: him rightfully or. Wrongfully but then the trial judge in this,
41:51
Speaker 8: case when he would file his, petitions and you say filed,
41:55
Speaker 8: FOUR i think he filed more than. That but there
41:58
Speaker 8: were several state habeas corporate petitions file pursuing to The
42:02
Speaker 8: Supreme court, decision the State Supreme court, decision and this
42:06
Speaker 8: particular judge refused to give him a, hearing so he
42:10
Speaker 8: languished for ten to fifteen, years twenty Years i'm sorry
42:14
Speaker 8: forgive me twenty years in a state of legal, purgatory
42:19
Speaker 8: essentially because he could not go to the federal system
42:23
Speaker 8: until his state case or state habeas case had been
42:26
Speaker 8: tried or. Heard and for twenty years they didn't hear
42:30
Speaker 8: it or try, it and so he. Languished he finally
42:34
Speaker 8: filed something in federal court out of, desperation and this,
42:38
Speaker 8: judge as federal, judge took it up despite the standing,
42:42
Speaker 8: issues because how abhorrent the state system had treated. Him
42:47
Speaker 8: he had never had a. Hearing so we talked about
42:49
Speaker 8: those who were who contributed mightily to his twenty seven year.
42:53
Speaker 8: Incarceration it just wasn't the state police And. Zaying it
42:58
Speaker 8: was also that you did at the state level that
43:02
Speaker 8: worked purposely to ensure that he would be in legal
43:06
Speaker 8: purgatory for twenty. Years so twenty of the twenty seven,
43:09
Speaker 8: years even After zain was found, out it was the
43:12
Speaker 8: system and the court system that kept him. There and
43:16
Speaker 8: so when you talk about making him, whole it's not About,
43:18
Speaker 8: zayn just About zayn in the State police. Department it's
43:22
Speaker 8: the state judiciary system and the prosecutors who knew he
43:26
Speaker 8: was in, prison knew he was, suffering knew they were
43:29
Speaker 8: on the court order to give him a, hearing and
43:31
Speaker 8: knew that they weren't giving him.
43:32
Speaker 3: That it really is.
43:33
Speaker 8: Abhorrent and so the fact of the matter, is but
43:37
Speaker 8: for this federal district court judge who found a way
43:40
Speaker 8: legally to rule right and to direct them to give
43:46
Speaker 8: him a new hearing or to let him, go because
43:49
Speaker 8: now we're in with a federal court judge who's got
43:51
Speaker 8: a lifetime appointment and says let him go by some
43:54
Speaker 8: date certain or retrying even after all of, that the
43:59
Speaker 8: same state, prosecutors the same state police offered or decided
44:05
Speaker 8: to retry him, again and on the eve of, trial
44:08
Speaker 8: on the day of, trial approached the bench and decided
44:12
Speaker 8: they weren't going to retry him allegedly because of lost
44:15
Speaker 8: witnesses or lost memory of. Witnesses that wasn't the. Case
44:19
Speaker 8: they couldn't prove the case twenty seven years. Ago they
44:22
Speaker 8: couldn't prove it twenty seven years. Later the bottom line
44:25
Speaker 8: proposition because anything That zain had, touched and anything that
44:29
Speaker 8: the state lab and those working With zain had touched
44:33
Speaker 8: was not. Credible and whether you had the witness or,
44:36
Speaker 8: not it was the tainted evidence that ultimately convicted. Him
44:40
Speaker 8: and that's the second tragedy of his.
44:42
Speaker 5: Incarceration it is absolutely fucking nuts That zain was exposed
44:47
Speaker 5: and actually indicted in nineteen ninety, three but.
44:50
Speaker 8: He had gone To texas, right had gotten fired from
44:53
Speaker 8: the position In, texas and when he came, back the
44:56
Speaker 8: state police and had welcomed him back despite all the
45:00
Speaker 8: findings against. Him he worked as a consultant to them
45:04
Speaker 8: and convicted other people on bad evidence when he returned.
45:08
Speaker 5: Right powerful bad evidence, TOO i mean because, again hard
45:12
Speaker 5: to argue with the guy that's up, there but talking
45:14
Speaker 5: science that people may or may not even unders, well
45:16
Speaker 5: people can't challenge.
45:17
Speaker 8: IT i often wondered With jimmy and even the prosecution
45:22
Speaker 8: on the other, side now That i'm involved in the
45:24
Speaker 8: case post his, release as who could find the motivation
45:28
Speaker 8: to wrongfully convict hundreds of innocent people based on bad,
45:34
Speaker 8: analysis poor, analysis or just perd your testimony on a
45:38
Speaker 8: repetitive basis a, practice a part and practice of wrongfully convicting.
45:45
Speaker 8: People what motivates a human being in law? Enforcement who
45:50
Speaker 8: most of them swear to The constitution and to the,
45:52
Speaker 8: flag and where the flag on their sleeves on their,
45:55
Speaker 8: shoulders right to wrongfully convict and criminally through criminal kinds
46:00
Speaker 8: convict innocent? People where does that come? From what manner
46:04
Speaker 8: of man is?
46:04
Speaker 4: That?
46:05
Speaker 5: Yeah and of course we know that in every one
46:08
Speaker 5: of these cases in Which zane and others like him have, deliberately,
46:12
Speaker 5: willfully wrongfully testified against people Like jimmy or they knew were,
46:17
Speaker 5: innocent in every one of those, cases the actual perpetrator
46:20
Speaker 5: remain free to go and go and commit.
46:23
Speaker 4: Other whole another.
46:24
Speaker 5: Bucket it's a whole other, bucket but it's an inescapable.
46:28
Speaker 5: Truth but you, KNOW i want to talk about the good.
46:31
Speaker 5: Stuff when you actually were let, free did you walk
46:35
Speaker 5: out of the courtroom like in the movies into the?
46:37
Speaker 4: Sunlight is that what?
46:39
Speaker 3: Happened it was On april, first after the, hearing and
46:43
Speaker 3: this hearing is to decide whether or Not i'm going
46:45
Speaker 3: to be retried or. Released And Judge Joanna, Tabbot i'm
46:49
Speaker 3: in her, courtroom and like my, Attorney Scott bolden, said
46:53
Speaker 3: the state decided they were going to. Retry So Judge
46:57
Speaker 3: Joanna tabbot set a bond in my. Case and she
47:01
Speaker 3: asked my, mother Miss, gardner can you please stand and
47:05
Speaker 3: my mother stood up and my mother told her, yes.
47:08
Speaker 3: Ma'am she, said can you tell me what kind of
47:10
Speaker 3: bond can you? Make and my mom, SAID i THINK
47:13
Speaker 3: i can make ten thousand. Dollars And Judge, tabot you,
47:16
Speaker 3: know which is one of the greatest judges In West
47:20
Speaker 3: virginia right now her And Judge JOSEPH. R goodmanin federal.
47:23
Speaker 3: Judge she, said, well the bond is said at ten.
47:25
Speaker 3: Thousand she, said Missus, gardner take him home with. You
47:28
Speaker 3: take him, home and my, mother my Sister's Barbara, Gardner,
47:34
Speaker 3: Harrison Tracy, simms my Brother Eric, gardner my other, brothers
47:40
Speaker 3: my Friend Sheila, lewis so many other, people my nephews
47:45
Speaker 3: and you, know my. Nieces it's so many people waiting
47:48
Speaker 3: on me to walk out of that. JAIL i walked
47:52
Speaker 3: out of that jail When april, first to the arms
47:55
Speaker 3: of my, family and that moment was so. Exhilarating you,
48:01
Speaker 3: know all of. Us we just met with a big
48:03
Speaker 3: group hug AND i embraced everyone and we shared a
48:07
Speaker 3: lot of tears of. Joy of, course the news reporters, like,
48:12
Speaker 3: well you, know they're seeking to retry Mister. Gardner in my,
48:16
Speaker 3: MIND i already knew this was, over this was. Over
48:20
Speaker 3: and my mother said they can do whatever they want
48:23
Speaker 3: to try this and that she said this is. Over she,
48:26
Speaker 3: said My god told me this is. Over AND i
48:29
Speaker 3: knew it was. Over SO i embraced my. Family we. Hugged,
48:33
Speaker 3: Man we went we went out to, eat we went
48:35
Speaker 3: to the hotel and, partied AND i mean we. Partied.
48:39
Speaker 3: Man you can't put you can't define, it words can't explain.
48:43
Speaker 5: IT i couldn't even imagine so being. WILD a crazy
48:48
Speaker 5: thing happened just a couple of months, ago because you've
48:51
Speaker 5: been out now for about twenty two.
48:54
Speaker 4: Months what was the date of the formal Exonerate september,
48:57
Speaker 4: seventh twenty.
48:58
Speaker 5: Sixteen so there was another mile stone right that you
49:01
Speaker 5: knew it was, coming but it still had to be
49:03
Speaker 5: a great. Feeling, yes, sir you were telling me earlier
49:06
Speaker 5: about a crazy story in the best possible. Way do
49:10
Speaker 5: you want to talk about? That?
49:12
Speaker 3: OKAY i would just say. This you, know Since i've came,
49:15
Speaker 3: Home i've had the opportunity to. SPEAK i do my
49:18
Speaker 3: own speaking. Now I'M Jc Gardner. SPEAKS i have A
49:21
Speaker 3: Gardener house incorporated In, Beckley West. Virginia that house is
49:26
Speaker 3: a house for returning, citizens giving men opportunities to have, housing, clothing.
49:31
Speaker 3: Food this is going to get off the ground pretty.
49:33
Speaker 3: Soon i'm in the process of renovating it. Now And
49:36
Speaker 3: i've been speaking and been fortunate to meet so many
49:40
Speaker 3: people and attend so many different, Universities Congressional Black call
49:44
Speaker 3: because IT'S i, mean it's just been, phenomenal phenomenal to
49:48
Speaker 3: say the, least the opportunities That i've. Had but last
49:52
Speaker 3: YEAR i happened to Meet Judge Leslie abrams in All,
49:58
Speaker 3: Benny georgia at A Georgia Black Women lawyers associating a
50:02
Speaker 3: party or something like, that AND i just happened to
50:06
Speaker 3: Meet leslie and we, TALKED i don't, know maybe, hours maybe,
50:10
Speaker 3: hours so so it was an extended time and it
50:14
Speaker 3: was at that time THAT i realized it was it
50:16
Speaker 3: was something that that was really gravitating me toward. Her
50:20
Speaker 3: and you, KNOW i felt LIKE i had found WHAT
50:25
Speaker 3: i was looking. For and Today leslie AND i are a.
50:31
Speaker 3: COUPLE i, mean my blessings have Been it's like a river.
50:35
Speaker 5: Flowing you found love in the form of the judge
50:40
Speaker 5: who happens to be sitting right next to me right.
50:42
Speaker 5: Now what a like an amazing circle now, RIGHT i,
50:46
Speaker 5: mean talk about the criminal justice system giving. BACK i,
50:50
Speaker 5: mean you, know it's like for somebody who has been
50:54
Speaker 5: as wrong as you can, be it's an amazing it's an,
50:57
Speaker 5: amazing amazing and, wonderful beautiful part of the. Story and
51:02
Speaker 5: you're a lucky, man so very, fortunate the luckiest of
51:05
Speaker 5: the unluckiest people THAT i.
51:06
Speaker 3: Know i'll, Say i'll say, This, Jason i've been blessed beyond.
51:14
Speaker 3: IMAGINATION i can't even describe. It i've met nothing but
51:19
Speaker 3: great people Since i've been. Home it's almost like everything
51:24
Speaker 3: you encounter is. Gold everything THAT i have encountered since
51:29
Speaker 3: my time of being home has been good for. Me
51:34
Speaker 3: i'm in a situation WHERE i Know i've been blessed
51:37
Speaker 3: beyond imagination and beyond the normal human being can be
51:41
Speaker 3: blessed their entire. Lives i'm fortunate to have a great
51:45
Speaker 3: attorney such As Scott bold and sitting next to, Me
51:47
Speaker 3: i'm fortunate to have a great lady in my, life
51:50
Speaker 3: The Honorable Judge Leslie. Abrams i'm blessed my mother and
51:54
Speaker 3: father are still. Here my sisters and brothers are still
51:56
Speaker 3: on this earth with. Me i'm in the presence of
51:58
Speaker 3: my nieces and nephews and my family members all the.
52:02
Speaker 3: Time i am blessed beyond, comparison And i'm blessed with.
52:07
Speaker 3: Health to come out Of, Mountsville West Virginia penitentiary and
52:10
Speaker 3: to go Into mount all The Correctional. Complex to come
52:13
Speaker 3: out of this situation now for twenty seven years and
52:16
Speaker 3: be healthy, mentally, physically and spiritually is beyond a blessing the.
52:21
Speaker 3: Miracle NOW i am in the process of taking some
52:25
Speaker 3: getting some psychiatric help as far as because you can't
52:27
Speaker 3: go in water and not expect to get. Wet SO
52:31
Speaker 3: i do have to take some classes getting myself reacclimated,
52:34
Speaker 3: back get some psychiatric help in that, regard just going
52:38
Speaker 3: through the, process sharing my bad times perceived with individuals
52:42
Speaker 3: with a, psychiatrist being in a position to, say, Hey
52:46
Speaker 3: i'm not at any level trying to Say i'm totally
52:50
Speaker 3: unblemished or unharmed by this, process because you. Can't you
52:55
Speaker 3: can't jump in water and not get. Wet SO i
52:57
Speaker 3: recognize That i'm blessed beyond. Majority but in the position
53:03
Speaker 3: THAT i am, today my position is to be able
53:05
Speaker 3: to tell my story to people and let them, know,
53:08
Speaker 3: hey it's not how you, start it's how you, finish
53:11
Speaker 3: and it's not what you go through in, life it's
53:12
Speaker 3: how you deal with what you go through in, life
53:15
Speaker 3: because we all go through. Something everybody got a, story
53:18
Speaker 3: AND i tell people that your story is just as
53:20
Speaker 3: important as my, story but it's how you deal with
53:24
Speaker 3: it and how you understand that you can only get
53:28
Speaker 3: through it by really tapping into your higher power and
53:31
Speaker 3: understanding that it's beyond. YOU i tell people every day
53:36
Speaker 3: they say why did this? Happen to, you it's not
53:38
Speaker 3: even about. Me it's not even about, me it's beyond.
53:42
Speaker 3: Me it's a level of me being placed on this.
53:46
Speaker 3: Earth not to play, baseball, basketball football under, that but
53:49
Speaker 3: to be an, activist an individual that's against. Injustice to
53:54
Speaker 3: share my story with, people hoping THAT i can give
53:57
Speaker 3: them the inspiration and motivation to know that whatever you
54:00
Speaker 3: going through in, life you can come out of it
54:02
Speaker 3: and you can be you can be in the best
54:04
Speaker 3: position of your life if you truly believe in your higher.
54:07
Speaker 3: Power AND i stress that to tell, People, look if
54:12
Speaker 3: you can go through, it whatever you're going, Through god
54:15
Speaker 3: will not place the burden upon you greater than you can.
54:17
Speaker 3: Handle so no going. In if you're going through, it
54:21
Speaker 3: you can handle. It it's, purposeful.
54:24
Speaker 8: You.
54:24
Speaker 5: Know usually on the, SHOW i opened up the mic
54:28
Speaker 5: to the featured guest for closing.
54:31
Speaker 4: THOUGHTS i feel like you actually right out of my. Mouth,
54:35
Speaker 4: yeah and that was.
54:36
Speaker 5: Amazing, So, jimmy how do people if they want to book,
54:39
Speaker 5: you if they want to donate to your new center
54:43
Speaker 5: that you're, Building.
54:44
Speaker 3: Gardener house in corporate www dot jcgardner speaks dot. Com
54:49
Speaker 3: i'm On twitter AT jc Gardener speaks And i'm Also
54:52
Speaker 3: instagram J. C gardner, speaks.
54:55
Speaker 4: You got that, Handle.
54:58
Speaker 5: I'm gonna, Yeah i'm going to follow you AND i
55:01
Speaker 5: hope other people will. Too And, scott how do people
55:04
Speaker 5: reach you if they are in need of your?
55:05
Speaker 8: Services Ape Bolden boldn at reidre Ed smith dot com
55:11
Speaker 8: with the law firm Of Reed. SMITH i would argue
55:14
Speaker 8: that these are very difficult. Cases they take a long,
55:17
Speaker 8: time and then there's the second story of recovery of
55:22
Speaker 8: how do you make someone Like Jimmy gardner hole not
55:25
Speaker 8: just emotionally or, physically or practically or, legally but. Financially
55:30
Speaker 8: he's lost twenty seven years of his. Life what is
55:33
Speaker 8: his life worth after twenty seven years of being in?
55:35
Speaker 8: Prison be welcome to look at other. CASES i can
55:38
Speaker 8: tell You i'm super focused On jimmy's, case, though because
55:42
Speaker 8: we have a couple of lawsuits pending In West. Virginia
55:45
Speaker 8: so despite all of this and all the, reports the
55:48
Speaker 8: state Of West virginia continues to. Fight now they're free to,
55:51
Speaker 8: fight obviously these are civil, lawsuits but given the overwhelming
55:55
Speaker 8: evidence and even the judicial reports that confirm this type
56:00
Speaker 8: of a really abhorrent, behavior and not just by the
56:04
Speaker 8: state lab but also by individuals in the criminal justice. System.
56:07
Speaker 8: There our hope and our goal is that we will
56:10
Speaker 8: resolved those cases so he can move on completely away
56:14
Speaker 8: from those twenty seven. Years right now we're still fighting.
56:17
Speaker 5: Though and then, LASTLY i do also like to have
56:21
Speaker 5: our other featured guests share any last, thoughts anything that
56:26
Speaker 5: you want to get off your, chest or anything you
56:28
Speaker 5: want to tell the.
56:29
Speaker 4: Audience Judge, WELL i.
56:31
Speaker 6: Would say that one of my passions WHEN i was
56:34
Speaker 6: a federal, PROSECUTOR i was AN ausa in THE Us
56:37
Speaker 6: Attorney's office In. ATLANTA i was hired By Sally, yates
56:40
Speaker 6: And Sally ates always talked about doing, justice but she
56:43
Speaker 6: talked about it as a three legged, stool and one
56:45
Speaker 6: of those legs it was, enforcement, prosecution but it was
56:49
Speaker 6: also prevention and re. Entry she was very adamant about that.
56:53
Speaker 6: NIGHT i hope that if anything comes out of. This
56:57
Speaker 6: one of the things that WHEN i Met, jimmy he
56:58
Speaker 6: said we talked for a very long time, time and
57:00
Speaker 6: part of that was talking about one how someone could
57:03
Speaker 6: go through that experience and come out with the spirit
57:05
Speaker 6: that he has come out, with but also what he was.
57:07
Speaker 6: Doing we talked About Gardner, house about how he was
57:10
Speaker 6: trying to help other people re enter into. SOCIETY i
57:13
Speaker 6: was the community outreach coordinator for THE Us Attorney's office
57:16
Speaker 6: a period during my time, there AND i did re entry.
57:19
Speaker 6: WORK i continue to do re entry work as a
57:21
Speaker 6: judge BECAUSE i think it's, very very important for us
57:24
Speaker 6: to give returning citizens an. Opportunity not everybody has a
57:28
Speaker 6: family that's going to be standing outside when they come.
57:31
Speaker 6: Home not everybody is going to have a home to go,
57:34
Speaker 6: to food to, eat even understand the. Resources jimmy is extremely,
57:37
Speaker 6: educated but the majority of people THAT i see in
57:40
Speaker 6: my court have not graduated from high. School would not
57:44
Speaker 6: be able to navigate the system as he. Did because
57:47
Speaker 6: it hasn't been. Said but understand the petition that got him.
57:50
Speaker 6: Out he, wrote he had thirteen lawyers over the. Years
57:55
Speaker 6: the only one to file that federal writ was, him
57:57
Speaker 6: and he did it. Himself not everybody has that. Opportunity and,
58:01
Speaker 6: so if, anything WHAT i would, say and is the
58:04
Speaker 6: most important thing THAT i think can come, out is
58:06
Speaker 6: that people understand that these are our brothers and sisters
58:09
Speaker 6: when they went into, prison whether rightfully or wrongfully, convicted
58:13
Speaker 6: and there are our brothers and sisters when they come.
58:15
Speaker 6: Out one of the, reasons And jimmy AND i talk about.
58:18
Speaker 6: Faith i'm the daughter of Two United methodist. Ministers my
58:21
Speaker 6: father ran close prison ministries WHEN i was a, child
58:24
Speaker 6: SO i spent a good deal of time in. JAIL
58:26
Speaker 6: i spent several birthdays in. Jail and one THING i
58:28
Speaker 6: was always taught is not your, circumstances it's how you
58:32
Speaker 6: deal with those. Circumstances and one of the things that
58:35
Speaker 6: really has drawn me To jimmy IS i have been
58:38
Speaker 6: inordinately blessed in my. LIFE i can't imagine confronting what
58:41
Speaker 6: he's confronted and doing it with the grace.
58:43
Speaker 4: That he has done it with amen to, that.
58:46
Speaker 6: And SO i just, say if anyone is, listening please reach,
58:50
Speaker 6: out look at what opportunities for re entry are there
58:54
Speaker 6: in your, communities and try to get, involved because we
58:57
Speaker 6: are all part of the society and we've got to
58:59
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