Latest / The Starting Block / Debunking ZachXBT’s “garbage” hardware wallet post w/ Trezor

Transcript

Debunking ZachXBT’s “garbage” hardware wallet post w/ Trezor · The Starting Block

0:05
Welcome back to The Starting Block.
0:07
Happy Friday to you wherever you are
0:08
around the world and thank you once
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again for joining us.
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This is the end of week three of our
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brand new daily show and it's been a
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fantastic three weeks so far.
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Of course, if you missed it, we
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started things off three weeks ago
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in Abu Dhabi.
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Me and my producer Jordan traveled
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all the way there. We sat down for
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an exclusive interview with CZ.
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That is on The Block's YouTube
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And if you haven't been here before,
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welcome to the show.
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It's a very simple show format.
0:47
We start off with the block
0:48
briefing, which is a breakdown of
0:49
the top news over the last 24 hours.
0:52
We move into a market poll segment
0:53
when we've got analysts on and
0:55
we have the hot seat to round things
0:57
off where we chat to a newsmaker,
0:59
a big figure in the industry today.
1:01
We're gonna have Danny on from
1:03
Trezor to talk about Zach XBT's.
1:05
Recent tweets calling
1:07
hardware wallets absolute garbage.
1:09
Hard to believe that he would say
1:10
something like that.
1:11
We'll be chatting about that a
1:13
little bit later on the show.
1:14
But before we do that, we are going
1:16
to be jumping into our
1:18
first segment of the show, the block
1:20
briefing.
1:21
Let's get straight into it with our
1:22
first story of the day.
1:24
We start with a landmark deal.
1:26
Citadel Securities has made a $400
1:28
million strategic investment in
1:30
crypto.com, valuing the
1:32
exchange of $20 billion.
1:34
It's being billed as Crypto.com's
1:36
first institutional funding round in
1:38
its decade long history and the
1:40
money is earmarked for expanding
1:42
tokenized securities and
1:43
derivatives.
1:44
CEO Chris Marzelek says
1:46
that crypto is increasingly becoming
1:49
the rails for finance.
1:51
And this isn't Citadel's first move
1:52
in the space.
1:53
The market maker put $200 million
1:55
into crack in last November,
1:57
also had a $20 billion valuation
1:59
and the co-led Ripple's
2:01
recent $500 million round
2:03
as well.
2:04
Spreading their investments into
2:05
some of the biggest names in the
2:07
crypto industry.
2:08
Our next story, Visa is going deeper
2:10
into stable coins.
2:11
According to a report from Fortune,
2:13
the payments giant with more than
2:15
200 million merchant clients is
2:17
building an internal platform to
2:19
make it easier for banks and
2:20
fintechs to handle stable coins,
2:22
it'll launch with open standards
2:24
OUSD, the stable
2:26
coin backed by more than 140
2:27
companies including Visa,
2:29
Stripe, MasterCard, BlackRock and
2:31
Coinbase.
2:32
And one many industry
2:34
watches see as a serious challenger
2:37
to circles the USDC.
2:39
There's no launch date yet, but Visa
2:40
says this is about plugging stable
2:42
coins into clients' treasury,
2:44
settlement, and money movement
2:46
workflows.
2:47
Let's go to Washington, where the
2:49
Clarity Act may be facing its final
2:51
test.
2:51
Optimism is building that the
2:53
landmark crypto market bill can
2:54
finally clear the Senate, Republican
2:56
Congressman William Timmons
2:58
told the block, we're going to
3:00
get it done.
3:01
The sticking point remains ethics
3:03
provisions around President Trump's
3:05
crypto conflicts of interest.
3:07
Trump was slated to meet with
3:08
Senators Moreno and Loomis on
3:10
Thursday to resolve exactly that,
3:12
but Senator Ruben Gallego warns
3:14
Democrats won't back
3:16
the current text without stronger
3:17
ethics language.
3:19
Majority leader John Toon
3:20
wants this on the Senate floor
3:22
before the August recess.
3:25
Then institutional adoption watch
3:27
T. Rowe Price, managing
3:29
nearly $1.9 trillion.
3:31
Has launched what it calls the
3:32
industry's first actively managed
3:34
multi-token spot crypto
3:36
ETF.
3:36
It trades as TKNZ,
3:39
read tokens on NYSE
3:41
Arca, debuting with
3:43
roughly $15 million in assets
3:45
and a 0.75%
3:47
managed fee.
3:48
Inside the portfolio, about 41%
3:51
Bitcoin, 18% Ether,
3:53
plus BMB, Solana, XRP,
3:56
and a 6.5% slice of hyperliquid,
3:58
which Bloomberg's Eric Balkunis
4:00
flags as notably overweight.
4:03
No staking at launch but the
4:04
prospectus leaves that
4:06
door open. Going to be very
4:07
interesting to see how this larger
4:10
multi-token spot crypto ETF
4:12
is received by the markets in the
4:14
next days and weeks.
4:15
Then some rare green shoots from JP
4:17
Morgan, the bank's analyst led
4:19
by Nikolaos Panetskosoglou,
4:22
says they are encouraging signs for
4:24
the Bitcoin outlook even with
4:25
spot ETFs flows staying choppy.
4:28
Two reasons. Strategy has boosted
4:30
its dollar reserves from $2.55
4:32
billion to $3 billion,
4:34
around 20 months of preferred
4:36
dividend cover, easing fears of
4:38
forced Bitcoin sales.
4:40
Bitcoin futures on the CME
4:42
saw positive institution-driven
4:44
flows this week despite the ETF
4:46
outflows.
4:47
Strategy CEO Peng Li, for
4:49
his part, says the firm is not going
4:51
anywhere. Bitcoin was trading
4:53
around $64,000 before
4:55
we got the show underway today.
4:57
Of course, you can look above my
4:58
head on the live stream for the
5:00
latest Bitcoin price on our price
5:02
ticket. And if you're interested in
5:03
sponsoring that, it's open.
5:05
So don't be shy, reach
5:07
out to the block or send me a DM on
5:09
X if you wanna sponsor our price
5:11
ticker on the show.
5:12
Moving over to Japan, where SBI
5:14
Holdings is doubling down on
5:16
on-chain finance.
5:17
The financial giant is partnering
5:18
with Ondo to tokenize Japanese
5:21
equities through Ondo Global
5:22
Markets.
5:23
Distribute Ondo's products across
5:25
SBI's network and use SBIs
5:27
newly launched Yen Stablecoin JPYSC
5:30
for settlements and collateral.
5:32
It caps a frantic month for SBI,
5:34
sole investors in Gauntlet and EDX
5:37
markets, latest rounds, the Solana
5:39
Foundation partnership and a
5:41
near $289 million
5:43
acquisition of Bitbank.
5:45
Tokenized equities are now a $13
5:47
billion market, about 15%
5:49
of all tokenized assets per
5:51
the block data.
5:52
If you're interested in some of the
5:53
block starter dashboards, You can
5:55
find that on our website.
5:56
I promise you.
5:57
We're the best in the business.
5:59
Polygon Labs is cutting staff again.
6:01
It's second round of layoffs this
6:02
year. CEO Mark Boiron says the
6:04
cuts come as the firm finalizes
6:07
its roughly $250 million
6:10
acquisition of crypto exchange
6:12
CoinMe, part of its transformation
6:14
from a blockchain foundation into
6:16
a blockchain enabled payments
6:17
company with a goal of profitability
6:19
in 2027.
6:21
The company declined to say how many
6:23
roles are affected.
6:24
Boiron called it a difficult but
6:25
necessary decision.
6:27
It's worth noting here, Polygon's
6:28
stablecoin supply stands at $3.37
6:32
billion, the eighth largest
6:34
stablecoin ecosystem across
6:36
all blockchains.
6:38
And no pardon for Sam
6:39
Bankman Fried if the Senate has
6:41
anything to say about it.
6:43
Senators Cynthia Loomis and Ruben
6:45
Gallego secured unanimous
6:47
Senate approval for a resolution
6:48
declaring that FTX founder,
6:50
SPF, should under no circumstances
6:53
receive executive
6:55
clemency.
6:56
The bipartisan measure follows
6:58
Bankman Fried's petition for a
6:59
presidential pardon last month,
7:01
though President Trump said in
7:02
January he has no plans to grant
7:04
one. Bankman Freed is serving a
7:06
25-year sentence over FTX's
7:08
collapse, which prosecutors say cost
7:10
customers more than $8 billion.
7:13
He also has withdrawn his motion
7:15
for a new trial.
7:17
That's it for the block briefing
7:18
today.
7:20
We are gonna jump straight into our
7:21
hot seat segment today.
7:22
We'll be skipping our market pulse
7:24
and...
7:25
Continuing with that next week.
7:27
So it's a great pleasure to
7:29
invite a friend of the
7:31
show on to join us today.
7:33
Danny, who is the COO
7:36
of Tresor.
7:37
Danny, it's great to have you back.
7:38
First and foremost, we last saw each
7:40
other. BTC Prague, it has been a few
7:42
weeks. I hope the summer is treating
7:43
you well. How are you?
7:46
I'm doing great, Gareth, nice to see
7:48
you as well.
7:49
It's a hot summer still in Europe.
7:52
And yeah, it feels like all hardware
7:53
wallets are in the hot seat today.
7:56
So that's a really good topic to
7:57
talk about.
7:58
Very much so.
7:59
Yeah, I think you're going to have
8:00
to be the spokesman
8:02
person for the entire industry this
8:03
afternoon as we talk about Zack
8:05
XBT's recent tweets.
8:07
I would have loved to have been a
8:09
fly on the wall in Trezor's
8:11
Slack channels and like, you know,
8:13
private conversations, when everyone
8:15
read Zack XBT's post
8:16
saying that all hardware wallets
8:19
are absolute garbage.
8:20
I mean, from my perspective, it just
8:22
it seems a bit nonsensical.
8:23
And I don't really understand why he
8:25
put. That information out there.
8:27
But first things first, like what
8:28
was the initial reaction inside
8:30
the walls of Tresor when you read
8:32
something like this?
8:33
Yeah, so first of all, like, I
8:35
really like Zach HBT is fantastic.
8:37
So, so it's like extra painful to
8:39
hear that from one of your heroes,
8:41
you know, like it's
8:43
I think I read it myself on the
8:44
Telegram group and I was like, what
8:46
is this?
8:47
So yeah, it's of course,
8:50
a bit worrying because it's
8:52
like it's a whole sector
8:55
is basically being diminished here
8:57
with stop-take and
9:00
the reach now of course he has
9:01
because all media and all
9:03
news and access.
9:06
It's copied everywhere, right?
9:08
So, of course, at first
9:10
it's like, okay, what's this?
9:11
What does it mean?
9:12
And it is a hard take.
9:14
So let's caveat that as a
9:16
hard take.
9:18
I think the first,
9:20
like, at least the first thing that
9:22
came to me also thinking
9:24
a bit more about it and like
9:26
trying to understand, like I
9:27
actually do understand what he
9:28
means. Actually, I get it.
9:30
And I agree that, you know, we
9:32
have clunky
9:34
solutions out there.
9:35
And it is really hard also
9:37
to build, and I will just like
9:39
say that as in defense for the
9:41
industry, like working on the edge
9:42
of security and usability.
9:45
And that's a very hard
9:47
field to operate in.
9:49
If you're too secure, you have bad
9:50
visibility. If you are too easy
9:52
to use, you'll have bad security.
9:55
And we talk a lot about this.
9:57
So I think generally
9:59
it is
10:01
true and specifically
10:03
that, you know, these updates
10:05
and these firmer things, I think
10:06
that's one of his frustrations.
10:08
He talks a lot about very mission
10:10
critical moments.
10:12
And I think today even he
10:14
posted about it as well.
10:15
Like, you now, it's really about
10:16
these moments where
10:18
you have to do the kind of high
10:19
stakes, sensitive monthly
10:22
or quarterly transactions or high
10:23
urgency moments.
10:25
And you don't want to have like
10:27
your device not working or
10:29
not being quick enough or having
10:31
some update that forces you to.
10:33
Be able to do that.
10:34
So I actually get this frustration
10:36
and I think
10:37
it's
10:39
a valid concern and I see this
10:41
ex-echo that a lot of people
10:43
struggle with this and that's also
10:45
up to the industry to improve.
10:46
However, where I push back on it,
10:48
and I'm always afraid to push back
10:50
anything success, but I'll try
10:52
to do it in
10:54
an elegant manner, is that it does
10:56
feel like very much specific use
10:58
case. He's like really targeting
11:00
these kind
11:02
of use cases
11:04
and and the kind of Unique
11:06
situation that does not really mean
11:08
that that's easy to
11:10
generalize for the whole industry
11:11
and all the users out there I
11:13
think that's the biggest topic that
11:15
that I feel is like it's
11:17
a generalization for a specific use
11:19
case That's probably valid and
11:20
correct and true and people who have
11:22
to manage like a lot of value in
11:24
high-stakes environments They have
11:25
they need different setups and just
11:27
a single hardware is not it's not
11:29
the best machine for that right?
11:31
But it doesn't mean you can just say
11:32
everything is garbage.
11:34
And I think that's that context is
11:36
lost in the discussion.
11:37
And that's, that's
11:39
where we can talk maybe more about
11:41
because yeah,
11:43
it's a bit like you're saying like
11:45
doing doing what the pros do,
11:47
but that doesn't really go well for
11:49
security.
11:49
And a lot about security and hard to
11:51
wallet is minimizing the
11:54
risk and factors but also
11:56
protecting yourself from yourself
11:58
and putting
12:00
putting all the workflow on an
12:02
iPhone in a kind of
12:04
open iOS, it creates
12:06
way more attack
12:08
factors and risks and
12:10
surface area which can be
12:12
compromised. And this is I think
12:14
where we also can talk a bit more
12:15
about, because like you can argue
12:17
that it's not that easy
12:19
even to do.
12:20
Like if you want to set it up
12:22
properly to have a properly air
12:23
gapped iPhone, you actually have to
12:25
go through a lot of steps.
12:27
You also have to somehow connect
12:29
To get You know, the
12:31
wallet, you have to connect to
12:33
central sections.
12:35
So, uh, it's,
12:37
it requires quite some
12:39
skillset, I would say, but as
12:41
I said, we're all low IQ, we
12:43
can do that.
12:44
So I guess, I guess I'm part of
12:46
the low IQ crowds.
12:47
Well, I think we all are.
12:48
But I mean, like from the outside
12:50
looking in, I would suspect that
12:53
the statement was made
12:55
in sort of circumstances like
12:57
the Bybit hack from last year,
13:00
where essentially a user interface
13:01
was compromised, right?
13:02
And then the
13:04
method through which they signed
13:06
these transactions and made these
13:07
big, like you said, mission critical
13:10
transactions that need to happen
13:11
every month from, you know,
13:13
hot wallets to cold wallets.
13:15
Were intercepted and then
13:17
suddenly $1.6 billion
13:19
of ETH is stolen.
13:21
That is a problem, and I think we
13:22
can all agree on
13:25
that.
13:26
When institutions are managing
13:28
assets in this way, they should be
13:30
doing it in a better way.
13:31
I've been to Zappo Banks,
13:34
one of their underground bunkers
13:36
in Switzerland.
13:37
I've seen it myself, the MPC server,
13:40
the links through which
13:42
they're going to safeguard
13:44
people's Bitcoin as a custodian.
13:46
And even that is pretty complicated,
13:48
but it's very, very high tech,
13:50
right? And you can't be low IQ for
13:51
that. But I feel like hardware
13:53
wallets in their most simple form
13:55
are really made for
13:57
retail people like you and I.
13:58
I mean, you shouldn't be
14:00
managing hundreds of millions of
14:02
dollars on a hardware wallet, but
14:04
the reality is there's some OG
14:06
Bitcoin whales that will have
14:08
thousands and thousands of Bitcoin
14:09
on a Trezor hardware wallet.
14:11
And again, like...
14:13
What could go wrong?
14:14
Lots of things can go wrong, but
14:16
it's a bit disingenuous to say that
14:18
the hardware is absolute garbage
14:19
because that's not true at all.
14:21
I mean, it's fantastic technology.
14:24
It's very secure.
14:26
And when you paint everything with
14:28
a broad brush like that, it just
14:31
disingenues in my mind.
14:32
Maybe you can talk to us a little
14:33
bit about the
14:35
actual spread of people
14:38
using hardware wallets and if
14:40
you have any sort of stats off hand
14:41
between like. Retail versus
14:43
commercial use of hardware wallets,
14:46
what people are actually using and
14:48
what the actual risks are and what
14:49
they should be using for different
14:51
use cases.
14:52
Yeah, for sure.
14:54
And that's exactly the point that
14:56
I'm also trying to make.
14:57
Like I think we generally sell to
14:59
a very wide audience
15:01
and with a high percent
15:03
of that to people who are quite new
15:06
and potentially already
15:07
a bit scarce because like the
15:09
reality is that we
15:11
talked about it last time.
15:12
It's also, it's a small percent that
15:14
people are in hardcore molest,
15:15
right? And that's also why
15:18
this news or like this kind of
15:21
new cycle about the it's all garbage
15:23
is risky, because so many
15:25
people are on exchanges, and I just
15:26
doesn't help them to make
15:28
to go into self custody,
15:30
right? If they have to like figure
15:32
out how the hell to do this versus
15:34
like, a more simple approach.
15:37
So coming back to your question,
15:39
we see I don't
15:41
have like stats because we don't
15:43
track our users, we don't know
15:44
anything about our users.
15:45
We do this on purpose.
15:46
We are a privacy focused company.
15:49
At the same time, we get support
15:51
questions and feedback.
15:52
And the reality is that the
15:54
questions we get are very basic and
15:57
very, I
15:59
would say, not advanced.
16:01
And that's exactly for those
16:03
people where you need to
16:05
have a very single
16:08
purpose way
16:10
of communicating to them with a
16:11
single purpose UI, an experience,
16:14
and as easy as possible.
16:15
But we also see, of course,
16:17
very advanced users.
16:18
Who use Trezor.
16:20
We see whales using Trezors.
16:24
It's basically quite widespread, but
16:25
I would say the bigger portion is
16:27
actually people are more novice, who
16:29
are not so technically advanced.
16:30
That's exactly where I think
16:32
this industry where it's hard to
16:34
compete with a hardware wallet for
16:35
those people.
16:37
I think it's the best solution out
16:38
there.
16:40
If you think about institutions and
16:42
stuff, I talk to some of them
16:43
now and then.
16:45
The funny thing is they have complex
16:47
setups, button.
16:48
All the way at the end of the supply
16:49
chain, the final point is
16:51
most of the time a hardware wallet,
16:53
like either a Ledger or a Trezor.
16:55
So they are also used, but they are
16:56
used in way more complex setups
16:58
with multiple
17:00
keys, et cetera.
17:02
So yes, they are use, but there are
17:03
not used in the way that retail
17:05
would use them.
17:07
When it comes to
17:09
Zach's claims about you're better
17:11
off using an old iPhone, break this
17:12
down for me because I hadn't even
17:14
thought about that.
17:16
Maybe you can explain this a little
17:18
bit better than I can,
17:19
what he was talking about and
17:22
perhaps a critique against
17:24
his suggested approach as
17:26
an alternative to using a hardware
17:28
wallet.
17:29
So like, I think what he's saying,
17:30
like an iPhone, the iOS environment
17:32
is safer than Android environment,
17:33
first of all, which is true.
17:35
Android has way more
17:37
complex setup.
17:38
So that's why he's specifically
17:39
saying iPhone,
17:42
which again, doesn't scale for
17:44
mainstream because like, oh, now I
17:45
have an Android, I have to buy a
17:47
second, it doesn't work like that.
17:49
But like, I think the point is to
17:51
really minimize all the attack
17:53
factors on the device.
17:54
So basically turning your WiFi off,
17:55
your Bluetooth off.
17:57
And really trying to do nothing
17:59
else, right? It sits there for only
18:00
one specific purpose, don't install
18:02
any software, et cetera, et cetera.
18:04
So that's the idea.
18:05
And then like, if you do that
18:07
properly, you could argue it works
18:09
somewhat well.
18:11
And you might not have
18:13
this kind of like, where certain
18:15
vendors put a lot of updates, where
18:16
you have to update the coin
18:18
support again, where you a firmware
18:20
update, or then your third
18:22
party wallet, where you connect into
18:24
needs another update for the SDK.
18:26
And these are all like fiction
18:28
points that I think he's
18:30
kind of talking about in these like
18:32
very high-strung situations that
18:34
you might not have if you just have
18:35
it on iPhone.
18:36
But the counter on that is
18:38
that, you know, it is less secure
18:41
as a specific environment
18:43
to operate in with your keys.
18:45
So where you have an iPhone and iOS
18:47
is like, I don't know how many lines
18:49
of code, but there
18:51
are so many targets which can
18:53
be attacked.
18:54
We have zero days popping up
18:56
here and there. Today there was some
18:58
thing about Mac OS,
19:01
some new crypto-focused
19:03
hack.
19:05
And you could argue, oh, but if
19:07
you do it all in a super safe way
19:08
and you strip everything off, then
19:10
it's fine.
19:11
I would argue it's still a
19:13
different environment.
19:15
And also, you have to still
19:17
go hot somehow.
19:19
You have to download the wallet
19:20
somehow. When you send the
19:22
transaction, you still have to go
19:23
hot.
19:24
All these things are like
19:26
still entry points where
19:28
of course then you have Wi-Fi and
19:30
Bluetooth and iMessage and cellular.
19:33
So like also these are other entry
19:34
points, even you're generating
19:36
your keys.
19:37
Like if you want to do that on a
19:39
wallet on your iPhone, it's more,
19:41
it's riskier than with a hardware
19:42
wallet which uses multiple elements
19:44
to generate the keys from like a lot
19:46
of contextual things here.
19:48
And also, you know, the screen
19:50
you're trusting is what you see is
19:52
on the device.
19:53
If something is compromised and
19:54
you're signing it, you don't have a
19:56
separate, that's kind of one of the
19:57
core purposes of a hard to have
19:59
having this separate screen
20:01
you can really trust where you can
20:02
verify everything and
20:04
what you're assigning.
20:05
So I think in like a,
20:08
in a specific setup with multiple
20:09
keys, like for advanced things, this
20:11
can go way faster and
20:13
the iPhone makes sense and
20:15
I get that.
20:17
But like, again, it's very nuanced
20:18
and the environment, like if you are
20:20
just a general user,
20:21
if you're like an average
20:23
crypto holder,
20:26
it's a very different story.
20:27
And if you want to have a
20:29
single-seat backup and all this
20:30
stuff, it is a very difference
20:31
story. And then I would say the
20:33
environment is not good enough and
20:35
proper hardware wallets are still
20:36
the strongest form of self-custodian
20:38
we have today, that is accessible,
20:40
that is also well-documented, where
20:42
the onboarding flow is easy.
20:44
And we have clear signing
20:46
initiatives with big screens.
20:48
So all of these things are,
20:50
from my perspective, still the best
20:52
out there for retail.
20:55
Yeah, beautiful. I'm trying to
20:57
actually bring up the
20:58
post because I think Zach XBT only
21:00
posted this on Telegram.
21:04
And like one of the interesting
21:05
things was him basically just
21:06
saying, you know, like, um,
21:08
I, you know, pointing out your, your
21:10
competitor and ledger, you know, I
21:12
like ledger is the worst.
21:13
They, they regularly update ledger
21:15
live for UI apps.
21:17
Uh, do you think he's kind of just
21:18
talking there about if
21:20
you're changing the, the
21:22
user experience and the
21:24
user interface, that is just
21:25
introducing more ways for people to
21:27
shoot themselves in the foot when
21:29
they're trying to store funds or
21:30
sign transactions.
21:31
Yeah, he's talking about that.
21:33
And I think especially, again, in
21:35
these specific scenarios where you
21:36
have high stakes and high
21:38
speed and high value.
21:40
And there, this really disrupts your
21:41
flow.
21:44
And these updates can come from
21:46
different angles.
21:47
It can be the firmware update, it
21:48
can be ledger has specific apps,
21:51
right? You need to update every app
21:54
separately.
21:56
And then they have the Ledger Live
21:57
apps. Like we have also TransSweep.
21:59
But on our side.
22:00
We are building for a very robust
22:02
system.
22:04
So when you have updates, it
22:05
actually doesn't disrupt your flow
22:06
at all. You can just continue.
22:08
It will just give you some like
22:09
highlight, hey, there's an update,
22:11
but it's not disrupting your
22:14
activity when you log on.
22:15
And that's quite important as well.
22:18
So we do build for like
22:20
a very like smooth flow,
22:22
I would say.
22:23
And we do really care about
22:25
robustness and even understand
22:27
that these devices that you store
22:28
away for a long time.
22:32
Then when you use them, there are
22:33
these new updates. And I think as a
22:35
company, you need to design for
22:36
that. You need to understand that
22:37
this is a use case that happens a
22:39
lot, even for retail people,
22:41
even for everybody,
22:44
you remember some
22:45
stressful moments where I had to do
22:47
something with a hardware wallet
22:48
because I needed to sign some
22:50
transactions. This actually happens,
22:52
specifically in Walmart, I would
22:54
say.
22:55
And then you're also frustrated
22:57
if you can't do that immediately.
22:58
So I would argue this is also a
22:59
retail thing.
23:01
And basically we need to design for
23:03
that properly.
23:04
Yeah, when it comes to the design,
23:07
I've had lots of conversations with
23:08
different people in the industry.
23:10
I've been to Ledger's
23:12
offices in Paris and I've chatted to
23:13
their people very closely.
23:15
I really loved how they designed
23:17
their devices and getting
23:19
Ian Rogers in,
23:22
someone who was involved in
23:24
lots of different projects and then
23:26
also taking some design inspiration
23:27
from iPhone.
23:29
You want a user experience that is
23:31
cool and it's contemporary.
23:33
But at the same time, we're dealing
23:34
with hardware wallets that are
23:36
securing, depending
23:38
on how much you have, a huge
23:40
amount of value.
23:42
And complexity can be the
23:44
enemy here.
23:45
Can you talk a little bit about the
23:46
design philosophy
23:48
from Trezor's point of view?
23:50
I mean, obviously, it's different
23:50
for every manufacturer out there.
23:52
But how do you get this balance
23:54
right between a great user
23:56
experience, something that's
23:57
contemporary, but something that
23:59
also is Highly secure, easy
24:01
to use.
24:02
And loss for a long period of time,
24:03
because some people will just do a
24:05
transaction every now and then, and
24:06
then not look at their wallet for
24:08
like, you know, two years.
24:11
Absolutely.
24:11
And like, it really depends, it
24:13
always goes back to once you use the
24:14
case, like where do you use it, how
24:16
often do you us it, what do you used
24:17
it for, if you just use
24:19
it to hold some Bitcoin,
24:21
like you can use a very simple
24:23
lower cost device,
24:25
like a lower end in the price range
24:27
device, and you just connect
24:29
it to a cable, and just put it
24:31
away for a couple of years, every
24:33
year you do a check or something
24:34
else, check on your backup.
24:35
So.
24:37
It always comes back to the user,
24:39
but our design philosophy has
24:41
greatly leapfrogged with the Safe
24:42
7, right?
24:43
So it's a new device that we
24:45
launched last year, and
24:47
I have it here.
24:49
It's a really premium looking design
24:51
with a big screen and
24:53
really also somewhat inspired
24:55
by consumer electronics
24:58
progress over the last couple of
24:59
years. I would argue it matches
25:01
the iPhone esthetic.
25:03
So I think even you don't have to go
25:04
to your iPhone just for design.
25:06
It may be even better than Thursday
25:08
7th.
25:09
But when you think about this, how
25:11
we challenge ourselves, so like,
25:13
of course, there's like Bluetooth
25:14
now because we know users
25:16
want a mobile experience, not
25:17
because they're gonna sign their
25:19
transactions in a cafe all the
25:20
time, that's not always the best
25:22
part to do it, but they want to sit
25:24
on the couch or whatever, they want
25:25
the freedom to operate,
25:28
whilst we also offer, of of course
25:29
the cable and we allow that to be
25:30
connected for mobile and desktop
25:32
devices, so.
25:33
Offering them more ways
25:36
to transact.
25:38
And then we have a bigger screen
25:39
with a high-resolution color
25:41
display. We don't use E Ink, but we
25:43
use really full-color display,
25:45
which is a high resolution where you
25:46
can really see what you sign.
25:49
This is where you find the balance
25:50
to get more
25:52
usability with a bigger screen, but
25:54
then also improve your security
25:56
by having more data
25:58
visible on the screen.
25:59
And we also support clear signing
26:01
initiatives with small contracts
26:02
where you see really what you sign
26:04
in a human digestible
26:06
format.
26:08
And we design also for durability.
26:11
So like a battery is a great example
26:12
where I think Zach mentioned
26:14
something about the
26:16
battery is swelling.
26:17
Well, I think if you look at X,
26:18
you'll see a lot of comments about
26:19
battery on our competitions.
26:21
We use like a LifePo4
26:23
special battery that's really robust
26:25
that you don't find in iPhones.
26:27
So you don't find in.
26:28
In consumer devices, they
26:31
usually for me and those
26:33
batteries, they don't have maybe the
26:34
quick charge because that's one of
26:36
the features you want in a consumer
26:37
device.
26:38
So they charge a bit slow, but
26:40
they're super robust, they have way
26:41
more cycles and you have
26:43
the risk of swelling or
26:45
these kinds of things after
26:47
long-term storage is not there.
26:48
So that means like building for
26:50
robustness, but also for security.
26:52
Where we use multiple secure
26:54
elements.
26:56
And also when we use, when we
26:57
integrate Bluetooth, it has a THP
26:59
secure protocol to secure
27:02
connectly and feel confident about
27:03
it.
27:04
And at the same time, you can go
27:05
very further on this
27:07
trajectory. Let's say air gapping
27:09
is one of the favorites topic
27:11
of certain other vendors,
27:13
which you could argue the usability
27:15
is less great and where
27:17
even the security you could argue is
27:19
not that much of a leap.
27:20
Because you're still sending data,
27:22
no matter how you connect.
27:23
So we try to balance
27:25
these things and that's where we
27:26
make certain design decisions where
27:27
I think this is the best balance
27:30
for security versus usability,
27:33
where let's say also you
27:35
can have hardware without the
27:36
screen, but then you really lack the
27:37
whole verification part.
27:39
And that's kind of a core premise of
27:40
hardware. So this is how we think
27:42
about it.
27:43
But I would argue like that.
27:45
Really great design is also with
27:47
us now. I would say we have the best
27:48
design in the market, the best
27:49
products out there.
27:50
We're very proud of it.
27:51
And when you're holding your hands,
27:53
you will immediately believe me.
27:55
There we go.
27:58
I will refrain from agreeing with
28:00
you so that I maintain my
28:02
objectivity,
28:05
but very,
28:07
very good points on that.
28:08
My final question to you, do you
28:10
think that these comments are
28:11
actually quite damaging for the
28:12
industry or do you just think it's
28:13
one of those things where it makes
28:15
people actually sit up and think and
28:16
be like, you know,
28:18
it's a hot take, but it's not
28:20
really accurate? Because, I mean,
28:21
that's how I read it and that's why
28:22
I posted about it as well.
28:23
With all due respect.
28:25
This is just wrong.
28:26
Yeah, I think it's not
28:28
nuanced enough.
28:29
I think people generally, I read
28:31
through the comments, I think,
28:32
people generally get that.
28:33
But I also think, you know, it's
28:35
the news of the day.
28:38
CT has the memory of a goldfish,
28:40
so probably tomorrow they'll talk
28:42
about something else.
28:43
I don't think it hurts long-term the
28:45
industry, but I do think we need to
28:46
defend ourselves. So we need explain
28:47
why, and I think the reality
28:49
is a lot of people don't understand
28:51
this. And they, of course, follow
28:53
immediately what's said by legends
28:54
as an expertise.
28:56
So that's where I'm happy at least
28:58
I could chat with you as well.
29:00
Yeah, for sure.
29:02
And I mean, like to be honest, I
29:03
really, I would have loved to have
29:04
had a round table here with
29:06
some of the folk from ledger and a
29:07
few other people in the industry,
29:08
but I think we'll continue these
29:10
conversations, you know, but,
29:12
um, it's, it's like, you,
29:14
when, uh, when there's complexity
29:16
involved and a lot of money, uh
29:18
involved, this is one of the, it
29:19
still remains one of the hardest
29:20
things, like even my parents
29:22
that, you know, are, are not
29:24
crypto native and maybe have a
29:26
little bit of crypto when they were
29:27
trying to figure all of that stuff
29:29
out, I'm like hesitant to say, you
29:30
know. Get a hardware wallet.
29:32
But at the end of the day, it's
29:33
also, it's not that complicated.
29:35
And there is very good resources
29:37
out there. I mean, I think every
29:39
hardware wallet has some sort of an
29:40
Academy or Learn section
29:42
or FAQ section that can really talk
29:44
you through it. And you know, Trezor
29:46
Academy has this as well.
29:47
So you guys have made great
29:49
efforts to educate people on
29:51
it actually not being that
29:53
difficult.
29:55
So ZachXBT is wrong, you know?
29:56
Like there is no such thing as being
29:58
too low IQ to manage.
30:01
A hardware wallet,
30:03
but self-custody does require
30:06
a lot of responsibility and
30:08
you have to be comfortable with that
30:09
responsibility and understand that
30:11
there are ways that you can very
30:12
easily get it wrong and even smart
30:14
people have got it wrong, and lost
30:16
access to Bitcoin.
30:17
So it's a reality as
30:19
well that we have to deal with.
30:21
Danny, thank you so much for taking
30:22
the time to chat to us today.
30:24
Once again,
30:26
we've been big fans
30:28
of Trezor over the years as well and
30:30
It's always good to connect with you
30:31
guys.
30:32
We'll surely have you on the show
30:34
soon and hopefully not
30:36
have to talk about a divisive topic
30:38
like this, but yeah, we
30:40
appreciate you joining us.
30:41
Awesome, thanks a lot, Gareth.
30:43
Thanks so much, Danny.
30:44
Thank you so much for joining us
30:46
right here on The Starting Block.
30:47
It's the end of week three.
30:48
We will be back next week with a
30:50
jam-packed lineup.
30:52
I'm just gonna bring up our list
30:54
of guests for next week,
30:56
because it's looking pretty good.
30:57
On Tuesday, we've got Gracie Chen,
30:58
who's the CEO of BitGet joining us,
31:00
We've got Anton Bukov on Wednesday
31:02
who announced yesterday
31:04
that he had left 1inch.
31:06
He was, of course, one of the
31:08
co-founders.
31:09
We'll be talking about the backstory
31:11
behind that.
31:11
We've got Corey Clipston from
31:14
Swann Bitcoin joining us next
31:16
Thursday, and then we'll be hearing
31:18
from Ilya Polisukhin from NIA
31:20
next Friday.
31:20
So we've got a pretty jam-packed
31:22
show.
31:23
Set a reminder in your calendar if
31:24
you don't have it already.
31:26
The starting block broadcast at 8.30
31:28
a.m.
31:30
ET, so that's if you're in the
31:31
United States, 2.30 p.m.
31:34
Central European time.
31:35
If you're here in Europe, please
31:36
come and join us. I promise you'll
31:37
be entertained.
31:38
Wherever you are, I hope you have a
31:39
fantastic weekend.
31:40
We'll catch you next week.