Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 178 – Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, Plebeian Hero

Transcript

Episode 178 – Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, Plebeian Hero · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome, everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad, Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:54 Hello and welcome back to the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 0:59 And I am Dr. Rad. Dr G 1:02 And we are in the early middle republic, as I would like to call it. I thought about calling it just the middle, but I feel like we're not truly at the middle yet. Dr Rad 1:11 No, not it's very Dr G 1:12 hazy territory, not quite. And last time we left you, it was around about 385 BCE. Dr Rad 1:23 Ah yes, Doctor G. We've been in the 380 s for some time now, and I feel like this is exceptionally hazy territory, which is confusing because Livy assured me that after the Gauls had sacked Rome, everything was going to improve. The record keeping was better. He was more on top of things, and yet I see no evidence of that to date. Dr G 1:45 Well, and for all of his claims to like good record keeping of our source material that we have that is literary and extant, there's not a lot going on. I have little bits and pieces from various sources. Thank you, Diodorus Siculus, for holding us down and anchoring us in the broader Mediterranean history, but you know I've got holes in my source material. I've got the late life of Camillus by Plutarch. I've got a little bit of Cassius Dio. I've got some fragments from Dionysius of Halicarnassus. I'm really, really clutching at straws here. Dr Rad 2:20 You may be clutching at straws, Doctor G, but I, as usual, have the life raft that is Livy's spectacular narrative. Just stick with me, and you'll be fine. I'm looking forward to what unfolds because I have things in my source material, and currently I cannot place them chronologically, annalistically, verification-wise. I'm just floating in a sea of fragments. Fragments, I tell you, it's a historian's dream and nightmare. Dr Rad 2:49 That's right. I mean, we could have nothing at all. Exactly, that would be terrible. Exactly. All right. So last episode, Dr G, we dealt with a little bit of 386 BCE, and we then started heading into 385 BC territory. So at first we were very much dealing with the Camillus show, our standard narrative for quite some time now, and now I find myself taking an abrupt left term where Camillus almost entirely vanishes from my narrative as I deal with something quite different altogether, and that is the tremendous arrogance of one man, Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. Dr G 3:30 Ah, yes. Now he has come up before, famous for the sacred geese, and also I think we did talk a little bit about how he doesn't seem to have gotten up to much since those halcyon days on the capital, saving Rome from the Gallic sack, as it were, but boy, does he make a re-entrance into the narrative. Dr Rad 3:51 Yep, the man that uses geese as an alarm clock-he's back on the scene, and it seems that even though he might not have been up to much, he feels like he should have been up to a lot more. So Camillus really only is a part of my story at this point because it seems that he's the one that Manlius is particularly jealous of. I mean, I think he's jealous of everyone. He has a real chip on his shoulder about the state of his career, his reputation. I think he just feels that he should be like the number one guy in Rome, and well, we all know that spot is very firmly taken. Thank you very much. Dr G 4:34 Yes, if only he'd been born in any other age. But no, he was cursed to be born under the time of Camillus, the second founder of Rome. I must Dr Rad 4:42 admit, that would be rough for any self-respecting patrician. I mean, do you even stand a chance? I think not. Dr G 4:49 I was going to say, in this sense, Manlius is representative, I think, of the patrician spirit that anchors the Roman elite, which is, I am the best, exactly, and I should be the. And everybody should acknowledge that I'm the best. That's Dr Rad 5:02 entirely the tune that he is singing, Doctor G. You're preaching to the converted over here. So we got up to the point where we'd recapped him last episode, and we talked a little bit about his attitude, this arrogance that seems to be growing and growing like an ugly green little monster on his shoulder, and I had just foreshadowed Dr. G that things are about to take a turn because no longer feeling I think that his ambitions could truly be satisfied by remaining one of the patricians, he's about to turn against them all. Uh oh. oh! All right, Dr. G, let's strap ourselves in for this. It's quite some journey that Livy is taking us on. Dr G 6:05 Oh, look, I am ready. I'm prepared. I don't know how ready and prepared I am, but I'm interested to see what Livy's got to say for this guy. I really do. Dr Rad 6:14 So we've got our manly man on the scene, feeling down, but deciding that he's discovered a new path. Livy describes him as the first patrician to turn demagogue. Amma, I know. He starts buddying around with the plebeian magistrates, and that would really only be the Tribune of the Plebs. I mean, disgusting. Dr G 6:40 Look, I mean, if you're going to vote in Tributa of the Plebs, they have to come from a certain level of society. But I think there are plebs, and then there are plebs, aren't there? I mean, this is the thing about Rome that we're really not quite sure of at this time. But there's got to be some sort of distinction between the haves and the have-nots, regardless of the social position. So, is he cozying up to the hoi polloi, the common man, or is he just hanging around with the people who get voted into those prestige Tribune of the pleb slots? Dr Rad 7:09 I think he sees the plebeian magistrates as his way in with the plebs in general. So he starts hanging around with them and going, "Oh boy, those patricians are they the worst? starts bitching about the other elite Roman men to these plebeian magistrates, and he's like, "This is surely going to get me in with the plebs. Oh yes, I am a man of the people now, and the sad thing is, he's kind of right. They do start to go, "Hey, I like what I'm hearing. Tell me more. Tell me, spill the tea, Madelines. I want to hear all about the patrician drama that's going on behind the scenes. And so, as he starts to win more favor with the people, unfortunately, his ego expands even more. I know none of us thought this was possible, but trust me, there's quite some expansion that we're going to see before it all comes crashing down. Dr G 8:12 All of a sudden, he's the popular guy at school. Yes, and he's like, "Well, well, well. Yeah, Dr Rad 8:17 and so it's really this sense of popularity, which is obviously what he was lacking. I think he felt overlooked. I think he felt like he hadn't been truly seen by the Roman people, and now he's suddenly getting that. And I love the way that Livy phrases this. He now decides that he is going to be famous rather than good. Dr G 8:39 Ooh, okay, Dr Rad 8:40 bit of a value judgment there. I think, Dr G 8:43 as if this for everybody in the 21st century listening to this podcast, we know the dangers of fame and celebrity, but manliness-no, he's never seen it before. Dr Rad 8:53 That's right, he doesn't know how it's all going to turn out. So we know that there's been a long history in our narratives, where the tribunes of the plebs have arced up about a couple of particular issues, and one of those issues that they have often gone back to is agrarian laws. You know, trying to secure land and sustenance, etc. for the people, and they haven't had a tremendous amount of success in the past with these kinds of goals, but Manlius decides to throw more wood on the fire. Really stir things up here. He starts saying, "Hey, what about debt? What about the issue of borrowing money and then finding yourself in debt? I mean, this is not just something that is an embarrassing situation to find yourself in, and I mean, I should know I'm ridiculously wealthy, but it's also something that is stressful. Who would have thought? And it may even lead to. Imprisonment. Dr G 10:01 Ah, yes. I mean, we do know from like early law elements of from Rome that yes, ultimately you could become enslaved through the the power of the debt. So this is a real issue. Now, I think the trouble is that we don't know a lot about the economic situation in Rome at all at this point in time. Dr Rad 10:22 Well, allow me to enlighten you, Doctor G. Dr G 10:25 Well, we're still some ways away from coinage, as far as I'm aware. I Dr Rad 10:30 don't have that kind of information to be ridiculous. What I was trying to tell you is that the rates of debt in Rome at this point in time are going through the roof because of all the rebuilding, oh, oh, oh, yes, Dr G 10:44 through the roof. Yeah, that's what happens when I Dr Rad 10:47 script jokes. Yeah, Dr G 10:48 I mean, by all means, continue to do that. But also, I rarely Dr Rad 10:55 do it, but I couldn't resist that one. Just came so naturally. So obviously, I guess he's tapping into a feeling, and this is this is also a part of the Gallic sack and the ongoing implications of whatever it was that happened to Rome when the ghouls came and knocking. All right, tough times. So the people are suffering. He's had a realization, maybe after a few conversations, talking to the tribunes, and maybe some select meetings with other elite from the plebeian class that maybe things are not going so well on the economic front, and maybe this is a space that he can move into as a bit of a player. Oh, he's moving and shaken, and the Senate are terrified about what's going on. They think it's time for a dictator now. Usually, that sentence is followed by blah blah blah Camillus from me, but no, Doctor G, this is not where we are going. So the Senate very cleverly use the military situation in which the Romans have found themselves of late as the pretense for needing a dictator. So we know there's been ongoing issues with the Volscians, we know the Roman allies, the Latins, and the Hernicans. They've been a headache as well. So with that surrounding them, it seems legit that they would perhaps appoint a dictator. Although secretly, it's Manlius they're worried about. Shh, only you and I can know. Dr G 12:23 Well, we certainly wouldn't want the people to find out too soon. That's for sure. So, a dictator. Now, this is a very unusual situation to bring a dictator into. I mean, sure, you could justify it with the military situation, but if in actuality the real politic of this situation is we've got to deal with this rogue patrician who has crossed class lines and is fraternizing with the low. Well, I feel like that puts the dictatorship in a questionable position. Yeah, Dr Rad 12:54 look, it's all very concerning, very unusual, but this is definitely meaning that we're returning, I think, very firmly to the struggle of the orders, that old chestnut, and so they end up choosing Aulus Cornelius Cossus, who I think we mentioned when we did the list of magistrates. And this is not a new name to us. This is a stalwart patrician dude. Dr G 13:17 Yeah, he is known for holding the consulship as early as 413 BCE. So by the time we get to circa 385, this guy has got to have plenty of years on the table. Dr Rad 13:34 That's right, and he chooses as his master of the horse Titus Quinctius Capitolinus. This is his sidekick, as we've said before, the Robin to his Batman. Dr G 13:46 Yes, not just about horses; it's more about friendship and like doing the dirty work. Dr Rad 13:51 Now, this is where I'm going to flag something, Doctor G, which Livy himself would not tell me. There are theories, Doctor G, amongst historians who have studied this period extensively. That whilst obviously all of this most definitely probably happened. I mean, you know, as far as we can say in this kind of still slightly legendary period of Roman history, there's no doubt. I think that something went down with this Manlius guy, and I think we've probably got the major beats of the story probably preserved, you know, thanks to the annalistic traditions and whatnot. However, when it comes to building up a narrative around the details that later writers were left with, as we have seen in the past, sometimes they can't help but perhaps see things through the lens of their own time, and maybe overlooking that Rome in this time period was a little different to the Rome of their own time period, and so this whole episode, some people feel, is somewhat overlaid with the late Republican clash between the. Tomates and the populares. Dr G 15:02 Well, call me surprise. I know, and you'd be shocked to Dr Rad 15:08 hear it because it's not like it's not like the issue of the Gracchi brothers and their agrarian agendas, etc. etc. haven't come up before. But this, I think, is even broader than that. Dr G 15:22 Although there is some suggestion in scholarship that this whole Manlius episode is constructed in our ancient written source material as something of a parallel to what's going on with the Gracchi in some respects, for sure. And this means that it's hard to tease out what seems to be potentially what actually happened from what people think happened from the kinds of moral exemplar they wish to establish in order to set the boundaries of a lesson for their own time. Oh, Dr Rad 15:56 undoubtedly. I mean, the Gracchi have loomed large over our history so far, and I think we'll probably continue to do so. I mean, if only they knew the kind of impact that they had on the entirety of Roman history. I mean, it's quite staggering. Dr G 16:09 And just you wait, listeners. By the time we're 80, we'll get to the Gracchi themselves, and then you'll get our take on them as well. Dr Rad 16:15 But I think it's just-I guess what I'm saying is, I think it is about these broader political ideas, I suppose that do sort of come out of the the Gracchi and that episode in the Late Republic. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, we will link some stuff in our show notes. But just to give you a bit of an idea about what we're talking about, in the Late Republic, you start to get emerging these men who they're all elite. Do not think for a second that these are people who are, you know, fighting their way up from the slums of Rome. They're all elite. I think it's just a question of how they are pursuing their political agenda and who they claim they are allying themselves with, or whose interests they proclaim that they represent. So the populares are generally more aligned with the people, so they more see themselves as representing what the people want, or they use the people more perhaps to get what they want or get you know their agenda through. Whereas the optimates are generally associated with more traditional Roman values, upholding the customs of Rome, they're not necessarily big on change, and I suppose most importantly, they see the popularity as perhaps a bit of a threat to this idea that the Senate are the leaders and they share power amongst themselves. Whereas there's a concern that that people who define themselves, I suppose, from the opposite camp are becoming overly prominent, I suppose, and that that potentially might upset the balance of things in the Roman political system. And I kind of weren't wrong about that, I guess, when we think about how this all plays out. Dr G 17:55 Yeah, so we could see this as maybe a parallel, a very loose parallel to modern politics, where we think about the conservatives would represent our optimates, people who are very sort of pragmatic but traditional at the same time, and the populares are more your progressive, potentially leaning into the demagoguery aspect. So I think today we see the far right as mostly the leave have the levers on the sort of demagogue aspect, but it can also be something that is done by more left-leaning politicians, and this seems to have been the case in the late Republic, where these populares they're trying to tap into popular feeling and popular policies, and we're talking about things that are beneficial to the plebs, who are by far more numerous than the patricians. Dr Rad 18:44 Absolutely. Now, just to be clear, these are not political parties per se. Dr G 18:49 No, and there's dispute about whether those terms actually were used in the way that we think they were used, even in the late Republic. So, talk about history is never quite as simple or as clear cut as anyone would want it to be. Dr Rad 19:02 No, but I think that we can say, regardless of how they spoke about it, I think we can definitely see that there were at times in the late republic differences of opinion about how political power should be pursued by the elite, essentially. Because as I say, they're all elite. Even in spite of the names, they're all really elite dudes. So, Dr G 19:26 and I think this is what it comes down to when we think about Manlius is that he is now pursuing a type of politics which is tapping into a power base that the patricians traditionally have ignored. Exactly. If anything, they've gone out of their way to make it unpleasant to deal with plebeian issues, and have just pushed them down and being like, they're not as important as patrician issues. You need to get back in your corner. So for one patrician to stand up and be like, you know what, I think the plebeians have something to say. Here and actually, I'm going to be an advocate for their position. Is bound to put a level of fear into the hearts of most patricians at this point in time than they're willing to admit. Dr Rad 20:12 Yes, and it's it's interesting that debt is now coming up again as an issue. It was such a hot button topic for us for a little while back in the fifth century, the good old days, Doctor G. And I think it is it is probably important for us to understand just how serious it could be, not just in terms of the stress, obviously, of not having money-that's never great-but I think also in Roman society, the the loss of reputation, the loss of standing that comes along with that, as you said, even up to the point of potentially even being enslaved if you can't pay your debts. So, it is a pretty serious issue, obviously. Definitely. And I think you were right when you said earlier as well that whilst the late Republican politics might be slightly influencing, whether intentionally or unintentionally, how Livy is reconstructing the details of this story, such as he has them, I think that Livy himself is definitely trying to send a message about Concordia. So this comes out of one of the sources that I've been reading, and I I do get that because we had this whole narrative from I think 386 of Camillus being deferred to, even though he wasn't officially a dictator, by other leading magistrates who were all elite patricians as well, and I think this is what really triggers Manlius in my story, and I think that Livy's problem is like whether you're a plebeian magistrate or a patrician magistrate. What he dislikes is the disrupting of the concordia of the state, and I can see that as being something that seems to upset him when he's been talking about these moments of internal strife, Dr G 22:01 I think we can take from this that Livy's a natural conservative. Dr Rad 22:06 Look, no doubt. I think most of our sources probably were because you know what? Oh, whoops! They're all elite dudes again. Dr G 22:13 Oh man, Dr Rad 22:15 Aulus Cornelius Cossus, our dictator. He's very well aware why he's been chosen. He knows that there are issues happening abroad for Rome, but he also knows that there are these internal problems that could become quite serious. So he's aware of his position. However, the war needs him to act quickly, or perhaps he felt that he could position himself more effectively in his position as dictator if he won a military victory. It's that classic patrician strategy that we've seen them employ so many times. Of oh, the people are getting unhappy. They really don't like the fact that they're in tons of debt. Quick, look over there! It's an external enemy. Fight him! Fight him! Guys, we're going to die if we don't pick up the swords. All right. So he gets get together some troops. They go into the Pontine territory where the Volscian army have invaded. I do love this because I mean this was like aww moment when I read it. So I'm going to actually read my translation in full to you, Dr. G, and I think you'll see why. Livy, at this moment, says this: I doubt not that those who are surfeited with reading in all these books about endless wars waged with the Volscian will ask, as with great astonishment I did myself on examining the historians who were nearer in point of time to those events, where the so oft defeated Volsci and Aequi got their supply of soldiers. This is Dr G 23:52 the very exact question that we've been asking for multiple episodes at this point. How do they keep answering, Livy? Dr Rad 23:57 Yeah, I'm Dr G 23:59 glad Livy's finally noticed because he's been one of these ones who's been telling us this over and over again. I'm glad he's got some questions. Look, Livy Dr Rad 24:06 himself, he says, "Look, I'm up against a brick wall here, people. This is just the source material I have to work with. They don't explain it, so I think Livy is assuming, like us, that the women in these towns they must just be constantly popping out those babies. Dr G 24:20 Wow, and you know, I mean, maybe they've got more people hiding in the marshes than we thought. I mean, Dr Rad 24:25 but look, they just basically, when they're not fighting the Romans, their sole mission is to repopulate like rabbits. This is a conclusion that Livy and I have come to. Dr G 24:36 Well, I mean, I can't fight both of you. No, Dr Rad 24:38 and the Romans apparently do this as well, whenever there's peace, which I feel like actually isn't that often. So I still don't. Although I suppose, what does it take to impregnate someone? A few minutes. I guess you have time to do that in between the wrong scone. The wrong Dr G 24:51 person. Dr Rad 24:53 But nonetheless, this concern that you populate or perish, Doctor G, in the war-torn. That is Central Italy. Dr G 25:02 Yeah, look, it's tough out there, and you know maybe we're underestimating how young they enroll people in the army. Maybe there's five-year-olds on the battlefield. Who knows? Dr Rad 25:11 Adorable and terrifying. Livy does speculate that perhaps they're kind of doing a rotation system where there are different tribes amongst their people who are called upon to do the fighting, and that kind of leaves other tribes to just get down to the hanky panky, and then they rotate it around. Dr G 25:30 I think the other thing that we can assume is that the numbers that we're given for the amount of forces that are that are brought to any particular battle are perhaps overinflated. For sure, Dr Rad 25:38 yeah. I mean, Dr G 25:39 maybe it's 10 guys fighting against 10 guys. I like the Dr Rad 25:43 idea that maybe these are tribes who are rotating because I think, well, yes, that probably makes sense because we're probably talking about an army of what 30, maybe. Dr G 25:51 Yeah, like how many people do we have? We can't reconcile the numbers that they tell us are on the battlefield with the amount of time it would take to repopulate for those sorts of losses, and when we think about that, we're dealing with a period of time where, like the birth rate being what it is, but the survival rate also being what it is, like your chances of getting to adulthood are not great. So, how are you going to have fighting men in the first place? I was like, you're going to have to have so many Dr Rad 26:18 baby. Livy even speculates that maybe the land that the Romans and the Volscians etc. are living on was just able to support a larger population back in those days, which he finds completely confounding because they have such trouble in his own time. He actually says that so much territory would become a wasteland if not for the and I quote gangs of Roman slaves that are working them. Dr G 26:45 Oh goodness me! Wow. So we're in hazy territory. I think that's the takeaway here. We're not sure where the Volscians have come from, but they've sprung up again, and here we are. Dr Rad 26:58 Look, I know that this isn't a major plot point, but I just loved the fact that Livy's actually was finally saying what you and I have been thinking for so long. One thing he is certain, Doctor G, and that is that all of his sources, whatever they are, because God knows he's not specifically naming any, agree that the Volscians had huge forces, in spite of the fact that Camillus allegedly really just handed it to them. Dr G 27:22 Well, I don't want to say that Livy might be overstating Camillus's achievements, but let me just put it out there as a theory. Dr Rad 27:28 Well, one thing that I'm going to also throw back to from I think it may maybe been like 387. I should have checked, but nonetheless, we did talk about the fact that in the aftermath of everything that happened with the Gauls, that the Romans had added more tribes to their number, and they were using some of the land that they had captured when they took they in order to do that. And you and I were completely confused because they usually fight tooth and nail before they give anyone land, but what one of the historians I was reading highlighted, which I thought was probably quite an apt observation, that the Romans are probably doing this to expand their own numbers as fast as possible. Dr G 28:14 Well, if the Volscian can pull rabbits out of hats, so can Dr Rad 28:19 we. We need more citizens, guys. We just need to get names on the board, and Dr G 28:23 then they leave the women out of the history. It's so rude. Dr Rad 28:26 I know, I know. If only they had thought about, you know, what we could double our numbers on the battlefield if we just trained women how to fight, Dr G 28:36 or just included them in any kind of way where we mention where the babies come from. Dr Rad 28:43 Anyway, so we've got all these Volscians that are a problem. Now there also do seem to be some soldiers from their erstwhile allies on the battlefield, as well as some from Circeii or Dr G 28:57 okay. So how are you Dr Rad 28:58 going to say it? Yeah, Dr G 28:59 Circeii. Cerceii. I mean, you could say it in a number of ways. I suppose I think about it. It's the one that's down the bottom near modern San Felice. So, it's on the coast. It's a nice spot. Got a lovely beach. Dr Rad 29:14 Lovely. Well, Circeii, which is a really weird name to say, and also some Roman colonists from Velitrae. Dr G 29:23 Oh yes, Velitrae, very nice. To the southwest of Rome, maybe maybe mostly south. Dr Rad 29:31 Look, this is all very confusing, Doctor G. We have to go again back in history to understand a little bit what's going on here. So apparently there had been a colony set up at Circeii in 393 BCE, and you've highlighted obviously the location of said place already, and it seems like that is accepted as a genuine thing that probably happened, but now. Now, tables have turned, Doctor G. Something something's gone wrong. Something's gone wrong. Now, Velitrae, we're talking about Alban Hills kind of territory. Again, a Roman colony had been set up there quite some time ago, actually, in the very early fifth century, but it wasn't really thoroughly a Romanised location before perhaps it starts having that Volscian influence coming through again. So obviously another sort of contested location, I would say. Dr G 30:36 It is definitely contested. So what we know about Velitrae is that it seems to come up later in Roman history in a more prominent way. So, like the 350s, and the idea that there was a colony there before then has been largely sort of discredited. I Dr Rad 30:57 think, yeah, I think it's when we say colony is that the Romans, in their own minds, understand that they tried to exert influence there? Maybe left some garrisons behind in the early fifth century, and then tried it again, maybe in around 401 BCE. It clearly hasn't taken, and even though it doesn't seem like the Romans, as you say, ever really properly established themselves here. They still reserve the right to be royally betrayed right now when they've got people from there fighting against Dr G 31:30 them. How dare you! I thought you were on our side. Out-Rageous. We never said that. We never said we were on your side. Dr Rad 31:38 So, the morning after the Romans have set up their camp, Cossus, our dictator, is taking the auspices as any respecting general would do. He wants the gods obviously to be on his side. It seems like all is going well, and he's in a spectacularly sunny mood after all of this. He therefore goes to the troops who are getting ready very early in the day. They'd been told to be up at Adam as soon as the sun rose, and he assures them, "Guys, guys, good news. Gods are on our side. Since we are therefore almost certain to win, we also need to remember these enemies that face us, they are the scum between our toes. Cossus thinks that you know what? Just leave the javelins behind. Weapons. Dr G 32:32 What? What do we even need Dr Rad 32:34 those kinds of weapons for? Just take your swords. I've got a whole plan, guys. We're going to have the Romans standing very firmly together in formation, you're going to wait until the enemy forces throw their missiles, which I'm presuming means throw their javelins, and then they're left javelinless. And the Romans will therefore be ready, knowing that the gods are on their side and get busy with the stabby stabby, with the swords that they've brought along. Then Titus Quinctius, our master of the horse, will allow his cavalry to make his entry sneakily. Chaos will ensue. The Romans will slaughter the enemies. Job done. Bing bada boom. Another victory in the bag for Rome. Dr G 33:24 All right. Well, the entrails must have looked pretty good for Cossus to be like, you know what? Don't even need javelins. We Dr Rad 33:31 know it, Doctor G. It all played out exactly as Cossus said it would, minute by minute. Dr G 33:40 Wow. Look, being the voice of doubt that I usually am around here, surely that's that's not that's a story. That is not a piece of history. Pish tosh, Doctor G narrative. Dr Rad 33:55 I have never seen something so certain in all my life. Clearly, Rome's enemies had been foolish and hasty in their attack. They somehow thought that their soldiers could triumph against Rome merely because they outnumbered Rome. Absurd! Absurd! Since when did having more soldiers on the other side ever mean anything, especially when you're fighting the Romans. Will they never learn? Probably not. Not if we know how Roman history goes. So obviously, their forces are thrown into complete disorder. They're running for their lives. The Roman infantry and the Roman cavalry and have now joined forces, and they're working together to pursue those who are fleeing. They do this all the way from morning till night, Doctor G. When I presume that the darkness makes it incredibly difficult, and the fact that they've been, I guess maybe doing this for like 15 hours. No, like Dr G 34:56 I'm so sick of running. Like make it stop. Well, I can't see where I'm going anymore, so I'll allow you all to finish up that run, and we'll head back to camp. The Dr Rad 35:06 Romans also manage to capture the Volscian camp. Naturally, they sack it, they take all the goodies inside, and they give that stuff to the soldiers. Dr G 35:17 Oh, good, that will help with debt relief, Dr Rad 35:18 except for persons of freemen, so I'm presuming that means slaves, Dr G 35:24 right? Dr Rad 35:25 Now, most of the prisoners of war that the Romans managed to capture in this battle are from their allies, their one-time allies, Doctor G. Now, enemies. What a turnaround for the books, Rome. And you know what else? They're not all from the plebeian class. Now, I know this. This is a hard thing to understand, I suppose, because it seems like they're suggesting that these people have a very similar kind of social structure or understanding of how their society works to the Romans themselves. But let's just run with it. I guess they Romans were maybe thinking that stupid plebs would be exactly the kind of people to turn on the Romans and then sign up as mercenaries. But they also find some patrician youths amongst the number of captured, some elite young lads, Doctor G. No, Dr G 36:20 everybody knows that you can't trust the young patricians. Yeah, no Dr Rad 36:24 matter what side they're on, whether they're Romans or from Roman allies, they're just no good. They drove up to the battle in their Ferrari, and yet somehow they were still captured by the Roman forces. Dr G 36:33 And they're probably rude as well when you capture them. They're like, I don't know, I come from Lumuvium. Leave me alone. Dr Rad 36:40 Now the Romans see this as very firm evidence that, in spite of what their allies have been trying to sell them story-wise, which is just we can't control what these crazy youth in our town get up to. We're not officially at war with you, Rome. Don't be mad at us. They're like, no, I've never seen firmer evidence that you are in cahoots with the Volscians, traitors. Now there are also some, of course, as I said before, who identified as being from other areas which the Romans consider theirs in some degree, and therefore also betrayed. Oh, Rome, Dr G 37:15 friendless, friendless Rome. Dr Rad 37:18 So they pack off all these people to Rome itself for an interrogation with the big wigs back in the Senate. They've got their spotlights out, Doctor G. Their torches, shining them in their eyes. They turned up the temperature in the Senate House so that they're sweating. Dr G 37:33 What were you doing on the day of the battle? Dr Rad 37:36 Nothing, I swear. I was just driving my Ferrari by. I just wanted to cigarette without my mum giving me grief. Dr G 37:42 Rubbish! You're an enemy of Rome. Dr Rad 37:47 And look at me in the eyes when I'm talking to you, kid. Now the prisoners, in spite of this intense grilling, did not actually reveal any new information. So sadly, I actually think that we're better bad cops than the Senate back in Rome were, they just repeated what they'd already told Cossus, the dictator, and again, it makes it very clear to all concerned that this is a betrayal. They're no longer allies. I mean, honestly, the amount of red flags are being waved around here, Doctor. It's like Rome doesn't want to believe it or something. Dr G 38:17 Yeah, look, I don't know how long Rome can hold out. Isolated as they are, friendless in the region. Good luck to them. Dr Rad 38:24 So once again, it seems like the Romans are on the brink of actually just going to war with these people because whilst they're saying, "Look, there's nothing official, Rome. I swear, we're still good. We're still good. The Romans once again are feeling mightily ticked off and are ready psyched to go to war with these people. Cossus is keeping his army ready and on standby. He's gonna go, Doctor G. Except once again something gets in the way of the Romans dealing with these people. Cossus is summoned back to the city because things are getting out of hand, and guess why? Marcus Manlius is back on the scene, Doctor G. Bam, bam, bam. We haven't seen the last of him, so he's causing all sorts of trouble. He's been giving extremely worrying speeches, worrying to the patricians, obviously delightful to the plebeians, Dr G 39:21 friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears. He's Dr Rad 39:26 pretending to be all one with the people, all democratic, but really Dr G 39:34 disgusting. The patricians Dr Rad 39:35 know what he's up to. He's planning a coup. Ah, classic. Now, Dr. G, this is very exciting moment. It's been a long time since this has happened. Far too long, in fact. We have a centurion, a nameless centurion, who is about to stand up and give his story about he gave his best years. To Rome on the battlefield, and what has he got for it? Nothing but debt. Dr G 40:04 Oh, okay. Well, this feels like a callback to Dentatus, if nothing else. Dr Rad 40:10 It's a total callback to other episodes that we've looked at. It's a very familiar scene. Picture this, Doctor G. This talented centurion. He's being led away because he is in so much debt, and as he's being taken away, who should see him across a crowded room? Dr G 40:28 Is it Manlius Capitolinus? It is Dr Rad 40:31 Manlius. Manlius quickly fights his way through the crowded forum, backed by his huge gang of clients. He grabs the centurion and starts slagging off the patricians for being so incredibly arrogant. He starts attacking the moneylenders for being so cruel. This is all the launchpad for the terrible state of the plebeians. But this nameless dude, in particular, the horror, the horror. Dr G 41:04 You know what? I think I like this Manlius guy, a man for the people. Dr Rad 41:08 Why did he, Manlius, bother to save Rome from the Gauls for this to be the future for his people to see a comrade and a citizen taken into slavery. I'm sorry, Dr G 41:26 but all I can imagine is that Manlius goes around with a goose at all times, and whenever he needs to, he pushes it to make a goose honking sound effect, so nobody can forget how he saved the capitol. Manlius is here. here, that would be Dr Rad 41:43 fantastic if that's what he did. He could just have a little, you know, flock of geese on exactly. Yeah, exactly. Take them wherever he goes. Remind everybody at all times. Not only is he the true savior of Rome then, but also now, because this centurion, he cannot be made to suffer. He has loyally served Rome for years and years. Now, as you've highlighted, there absolutely have been previous stories exactly like this one. In fact, I actually did do my homework and look it up. We had one such instance all the way back under Publius Servilius and Appius Claudius, there had been so much outrage over this situation, Doctor G, that really only oddly once again a Volscian attack of all the things had somewhat alleviated the tension, but eventually this would all lead to the first secession of the plebs. So I mean, this is a well tried and true story. This is Dr G 42:46 a throwback to the good old days. We'll just secede. Dr Rad 42:50 Exactly. To be fair, whilst this talented centurion is unnamed, which seems really sad, given that he is apparently the talented one on the battlefield and the one suffering here. It does, I think, still genuinely highlight the fact that there probably was a real problem going on here, which is as we've highlighted with Rome constantly facing these little raids, these tiffs with their neighbors. I mean, it would be hard, I think, to keep a farm, a plot of land going, especially since we don't know what everybody's family situations are like. Do you have lots of kids who can keep things going while you're away? Maybe not. Well, Dr G 43:32 you must have lots of kids because otherwise, who's going to fight in the next battle? That's Dr Rad 43:36 right. Yeah, you have to have lots of kids, but are they well enough? Are they able to do the farming? Who knows? So Dr G 43:43 nobody. Whilst Dr Rad 43:44 this may be a bit of a trope, it doesn't mean that it doesn't represent a real problem in Roman society at this point in time. Dr G 43:54 Oh, look! And I think you know you've already sort of hinted at the fact that we've got this fallout legacy of the Gallic sack, and and this is where all of this is coming from because obviously to rebuild that means you have to take time away from the farm or you have to take time away from your other employment and so debt is a natural thing that's going to occur here and when we think about how the monetary system is operating in Rome even though they don't have coinage they definitely have trade and they definitely have an idea about how economy works, in the sense that you owe people things, and ledgers would be kept because there's no way that you would end up potentially being imprisoned and enslaved for your level of debt if there wasn't a clear record being kept of what you owed to who. For sure. Dr G 44:39 So this idea of the class system in Rome also being the patricians sitting in this sort of elite category in terms of how much they possess in terms of wealth and how much they're willing to lend out to other people, producing this idea of the client and Manlius now being in this position where he's willing to sort of point his finger at the problem, and as a result of that, more people are interested in being his client. That's the thing that's probably really annoying the patricians is that Manlius can now walk around town surrounded by a mob. Dr Rad 45:17 Oh, and he is, believe me, that's his mode of transport from here on out. Dr G 45:22 He's got a mob. He's got his geese on leads, and everybody every time they see him, they're like, "That guy, yeah, yeah, that guy is pissing me off. Yeah. Dr Rad 45:31 Now, Manlius does the only thing that he possibly could do to make himself any more awesome in this moment and completely steal the spotlight from the talented centurion, which is that he pays the debt very publicly. Dr G 45:48 Ooh, hello! Pulls out his big shiny like here. Take this hunk of gold and consider yourself debtless, my friend. You're actually Dr Rad 45:58 not far off there. Apparently, and I actually had no idea that this this is one of those incidental details that I think only really come up, you know, when you happen to be reading an account like this. It's not something that's necessarily widely known about Rome in this time period. Apparently, a very old and symbolic way of settling debts or some sort of transfer of property was involved scale and bronze. So Manlius uses the ceremony of scale and bronze to symbolically free this man of his debt. So he's basically being transferred from the ownership of whoever he owed everything to, and he's now being restored to liberty, Doctor G, and this centurion now is free to go around and tell people that Manlius was, and I quote, the father of the Roman plebeians. Oh wow! So Camillus might be the second founder of Rome, but Manlius is the father of the Roman plebeians. Dr G 46:59 This this is big. I don't think we've encountered a title quite like this before. I don't think Dr Rad 47:05 we have. Dr G 47:07 Father of the plebeians, incredible stuff. Manlius. Oh, oh. And you Dr Rad 47:12 just wait, Doctor G. I know you're waiting for this moment. So here it comes. The centurion gathers even more attention to what he's saying and really riles the people up by doing what? That's right, taking his shirt off and showing them his gun. Oh yeah, I mean God. I I have been actually longing for another moment like this. It's it's been like 100 years, don't you? Dr G 47:35 It's it's been a while since anybody's taken their shirt off in public around here. All right. Well, my first question is, why would he do that? He's free. He doesn't. He just doesn't need to be going around taking his shirt off. So I'm curious about the why behind that. Dr Rad 47:50 Look, I think the story happens perhaps a little bit backwards to the way that you might imagine it goes. In that, it does seem like Manlius actually recognizes this guy. So he sees him being led away for debt and fights his way through very publicly, sets everything to rights by clearing up the debt like that on the spot, like the rich dude that he is, and the centurion is so grateful that it's now that he actually tells his story. I think in our previous accounts we've usually had this real build-up where the soldier tells his story, takes off his shirt, and everyone loses their minds. In this version, he is saved, which gives him the freedom and the time to really psych the people up by talking about, oh my God, I was just saved from a really dicey situation. Just say, you know, I've I've worked really hard all my life. I've fought for Rome, and then after everything that had happened, as you very rightly pointed out, I needed to rebuild my house, but the debt had gotten the best of me. Even though I'd managed to repay the sum I had originally borrowed, it was the interest that was the killer, Doctor G. The interest. You couldn't get out from under that thumb. Dr G 49:02 Parallel for the modern era. I know. I was going to say, Dr Rad 49:04 wow. I really resonate with this dude. Now, Marcus Manlius was his savior. He looked at him like a parent, and the centurion publicly says, "You know, I'm committed to him now. This is my guy. The plebeians could not be swooning any harder. Thank God, room is just littered with fainting couches because otherwise there'd be a lot of serious head injuries. Dr G 49:26 Yeah, it's tough, particularly if you're in the forum and you're just landing on the hard stone. Oh man! Now Dr Rad 49:33 Manlius doesn't make this situation any better because he decides, you know what? I've got these guys in the palm of my hand. Now's the time for the killer move. He steps in, and he tips them over the edge by saying he decided that he was going to sell a farm of his in the Veii Area, which, and again, I quote, was the main part of his fortune, and he was going to use. Proceeds from that sale to help as many Romans out of slavery as he could. Dr G 50:05 He's a man for the people. Dr Rad 50:08 I mean, does this add up? Not really. Why would someone of such an ancient family as himself have his main estate in an area that's recently conquered? Who knows? Dr G 50:20 You're asking the wrong questions. I mean, especially a man. He's a man of the people. No man Dr Rad 50:26 is Capitolinus. Is it because his family come from the Capitoline? Dr G 50:32 No, shoo, shoo, shh. Dr Rad 50:34 But yes, let's not get swept up in the details, Doctor G. The main point is he's going to use his fortune to try and help as many Romans who fall into debt as possible, and that, I mean, I don't think we've ever seen anyone quite this dedicated to the people. He's actually putting his money where his mouth Dr G 50:54 is. Oh my stars! All right, so we've got a man of the people who is engaging in extensive debt relief, using his own personal fortune to back it up. Yes, I don't think the people could love him anymore. No, Dr Rad 51:12 Livy explicitly states that they are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over Speaker 1 51:18 madness. Not Dr Rad 51:19 a direct quote, but I'm paraphrasing, and they're now in the situation where he could ask them to do anything, and they would do it, just unquestioningly. It's manlius. You got it. You got it. What you want, you got. Dr G 51:32 Who's the most manly man in Rome? It's manlius. Dr Rad 51:38 Now I feel like I'm going to reach a point that would be perhaps a good cliffhanger in his story. So so far, Manlius actually sounds like kind of the guy that you and I would quite like in terms of his politics. I mean, the arrogance I could do without the chip on the shoulder is not super attractive, but he does actually seem to be out there and doing something. So good Dr G 51:59 for him. Dr Rad 52:00 However, this is the troubling part for the patricians, Doctor G. I mean, obviously, yes, they don't love how popular he is with the people. He's tapping into, as you say, a power source that they themselves have always overlooked and thought is disgusting. But on top of these very public actions that he's taking, it's in-it's basically making him bolder in the way that he chooses to live his life. Dr G 52:25 If there's anything to light the fire of arrogance inside him, that is deeply part of his patrician soul. It's the fact that things are going so exactly. This is all he wanted. Dr Rad 52:34 This is all he wanted. Universal acclaim. Is that so much to ask? I don't think so. So he's just getting so bold. He feels like he really doesn't have to hold back about his fellow patricians. So he's slandering them left, right, and center. And perhaps the really galling thing about this Dr. G, because he'd been obviously trash talking them before, is that now he doesn't care if what he's saying is actually true or not? Yeah, and he comes out with a real clanka, and that is that the patricians had actually secretly hoarded the Gallic gold. So not only were the patricians occupying state land for themselves, throwback to previous agrarian issues that we've heavily questioned, but they also wanted the treasury for themselves too. They want the wealth of Rome to be theirs, even though there's so much money there that could be used to set the people free from their debt. Dr G 53:46 You know what? That doesn't sound like a whole lie. Dr Rad 53:50 That sounds like the kind Dr G 53:52 of things the patricians might just do. Let's just hide all the gold and keep it for ourselves. You know, if I was a plebeian, and I am, and somebody came to me and said, "You know what? Those rich people are hoarding all the wealth, I'd be like, "Sounds about right. Look, I don't think Dr Rad 54:12 anyone can deny that these guys have got a stranglehold on wealth in this society. I guess it's just that you and I have somewhat questioned the details surrounding this Gallic gold business. I mean, the Dr G 54:25 Gallic gold has been going around in circles for a while. Like the Gauls ran away with it. Did Camillus get it back in one? Exactly. Was it no? Where is it now? Is it hiding in a temple? Dr Rad 54:36 It's a Where's Wally of ancient Rome. So I'm going to finish up with this detail, which is that the plebeians obviously believe him because he's their guy. Why would he lie to them? And they now feel really abused. Even before they feel quite taken advantage of because when Rome had needed all the gold they possibly had to pay the Gauls, the way that they had done that. Was partly kind of through essentially a tax, and so the Roman people have contributed to this. And now it seems like maybe these funds are entirely controlled by the elites. Now again, this entirely depends, I suppose, on whose account you follow about what happened with the Gallic gold and who got it back and when, etc. So the plebeians are therefore now turning on the patricians and angrily demanding, "Where the hell is the gold? They're asking Manlius, "Well, where is it? If you know this, you must know where it is. You're, you know, you used to be one of them. So tell us, where Dr G 55:35 is it? Cliffhanger doesn't. We will go and yeah, we'll go and take it. Cliffhanger. If you tell us where it is, Manlius Dr Rad 55:41 says, "Don't you worry, guys. I'll let you know where it is, but only when the time is Dr G 55:48 right. Oh, and that's where I'm going to finish for today. Dr Rad 55:51 I am nowhere near finished with this guy, but that seems like a good stopping point. Dr G 55:57 A cliffhanger indeed. Where's the Dr Rad 56:00 girl, Doctor G? Dr G 56:02 Follow the money. Well, you know what this means. That it's time for Dr Rad 56:06 the partial pick. Oh, Doctor G, I swear, I don't think I have the energy to do this. Dr G 56:17 Well, if you like, I'll just give them all numbers, and you can just add them up. A limp Dr Rad 56:23 to the finish line. Tell me, what are our categories here? Dr G 56:27 Okay, so we've got five categories, each with a possible score of 10 gold eagles. The maximum room could score 50 gold eagles, and if they do that, that will be a day to be reckoned with because that would be history making. But let's see. The first category is military clout. Dr Rad 56:45 Well, Dr G. I mean, Dr G 56:47 just leave the javelins at home and trust the trust the signs from the go. Exactly. I Dr Rad 56:53 mean, it's a clean sweep. What more can you ask for? We've got a dictator. We've got camp being taken, we've got stuff being seized, we've got prisoners of war. They're being interrogated. It's great. Dr G 57:07 There is a lot there. There's only one battle though, so I'm going to give it a seven. Dr Rad 57:11 No, come on. It's too seamless. It's got to be an eight. Dr G 57:17 I mean, it doesn't make any sense, but Dr Rad 57:20 that has never bothered us before. Dr G 57:23 Bye. Okay. Thanks. Dr Rad 57:26 All right. What's our next category? Dr G 57:28 Next category: diplomacy. Dr Rad 57:30 I feel not the zero. I feel that's a zero. Yes, the Romans are not getting along with anyone, not even themselves. So, is Dr G 57:37 it diplomatic to interrogate your allies and their young children who happen to have Ferraris. I don't know. Dr Rad 57:43 Look, I mean, maybe this is going to scare them straight. If anybody scared me straight, I think it would be a bunch of patriarchs standing in my face. Dr G 57:53 We're like, we're not giving you the keys back to your Ferrari until you tell us exactly what's going on. No Dr Rad 57:57 more cigarette breaks to cough up some information. Aha, aha, Dr G 58:01 ha ha ha. All right. The third category: expansion. Dr Rad 58:07 Not really. I mean, they're really just trying to hold on to what they have and figure out their situation with the allies. Dr G 58:14 Correct. That means good news, Wiertus. I think we're going to have to give a score for Wiertus this time. Dr Rad 58:21 Oh, okay. As in for the Centurion or for Cossus? Yeah. Okay. Centurion. Okay. Dr G 58:26 I think so. I mean, not only does he come out with this like speech in praise of the support he's received from Manlius, but he goes to the extent of revealing his scars to everybody. Oh Dr Rad 58:41 yeah, and I forgot to tell you, he actually lists off the battles that he was a part of. He was part of Camillus's campaign against Veii. He fought the Gauls and also a billion other conflicts since then. Dr G 58:56 Because Rome is always at war. That's Dr Rad 58:59 right. Yeah, I mean, really, his-he doesn't really have a chest anymore. It's just one giant scar. Dr G 59:03 Now, I think the bigger question is perhaps because I feel like the Centurion is the obvious candidate for a virtus score. But is there anything about what Manlius is doing that could also constitute weirdos? Dr Rad 59:15 Well, this is what I was wondering, right? It's all very public, isn't it? It is. It's very daring. Dr G 59:22 He's out there. It's daring. It's very daring. Yeah. Dr Rad 59:25 Okay. Well, he's Dr G 59:27 pursuing his political agenda fearlessly and openly. That is something that Romans generally quite appreciate as a masculine. Shamefully, Dr Rad 59:37 might be the generally. Dr G 59:39 I mean, they don't like it at the moment because they're losing the patricians too. But the Dr Rad 59:42 ends are loving it. Yeah, Dr G 59:44 that's true. Dr Rad 59:44 Ooh, I don't know. Then okay, so what are we looking at here? If we take them both together, then is it a 10? Is that too much? Dr G 59:52 Well, I think we'd have to detract some points from Madelius because he's being driven by his arrogance. Dr Rad 59:59 That's true. Dr G 1:00:00 So fundamentally, under all of this, is not a virtue in the sense of him wanting something better for the people. What he wants is to be loved. Yes, although quite the crowd. Dr Rad 1:00:13 I'm just gonna say, Doctor G, this is what the sources tell us. Manlius, I don't think, is probably getting his point of view across in this story. They say that this is a problem because he's secretly planning something more devious. This isn't really about the people's welfare. But I mean, how many times have we seen this story before? I Dr G 1:00:37 mean, if it looks like it's for the people's welfare and the people benefit from the welfare being distributed. Exactly. Dr Rad 1:00:43 I mean, is there a coup that's been launched so far? I think not. Dr G 1:00:47 That's only because you ended on a cliffhanger. Unless Doctor Jhe, where are you reading this episode? All right. Well, I'd say maybe weird to us. We've got like maybe a second. Okay, Dr Rad 1:00:58 I'll live with that. Yeah. Dr G 1:01:00 Our final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 1:01:03 Well, maybe this is a 10. I mean, ding dong. Now we're Dr G 1:01:08 talking. Yeah, we've Dr Rad 1:01:09 got Dr G 1:01:10 debt relief for the masses. That's right. Selling the property in vain to help the people out, and also Dr Rad 1:01:17 there's gold in them hills. Not only that, we've got an effortless military victory. I mean, you barely had to pick up a sword, and you've won all this booty. You've got this uber patrician on your side, representing your interests like no one has in literally decades, probably within living memory. Dr G 1:01:37 The sense of hope amongst the people must be really high right now. Dr Rad 1:01:40 Absolutely, I'd be singing, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, macho, macho, man. Dr G 1:01:48 So I think that's a pretty good citizen score. Yes, I feel like that might be a 10. Dr Rad 1:01:52 I can't see it getting too much better. Although, okay, hang on, wait, wait. My enthusiasm carried me way too far. Isn't Manlius able to capitalize on actually potentially quite a desperate situation left behind by the Gauls, the rebuilding and whatnot. Dr G 1:02:11 Well, sure, but that's not his fault. I mean, no, we're talking about the citizen Dr Rad 1:02:14 school here. I guess what I'm saying is, underneath all of this, doesn't it mean that there are probably lots of Romans in debt merely because they had to rebuild their house. Dr G 1:02:23 Yeah, but didn't he just say he'd try to help as many as he could? Dr Rad 1:02:26 Yes, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, but he hasn't done it yet. Well, he hasn't done it yet. I mean, what you say, what you do, he's only helped one guy. Sure, we will enjoy some eye candy, so that's a plus for the citizens too. But I think underneath all of that, there must have been quite a desperate financial situation for some people in Rome at this point in time for him to be able to jump on this bandwagon. So I don't know, maybe nine is guess is what I'm saying. All right, nine. Okay, which means Doctor G, we have surprisingly high number for Rome today. It is 24 golden eagles. That's right. If I hadn't been such a Scrooge this then, they would have made it to 25. They would have got a passing grade. Dr G 1:03:11 So close. Well, okay. I think that's the best room's done for a little while. Thank you, Manlius, for your contribution. Oh, Dr Rad 1:03:21 and let's all thank the nameless centurion who took his shirt off. Thank you for your service, sir. Dr G 1:03:25 Rome salutes you. Dr Rad 1:03:28 All right, Dr. G. Well, I'm very much looking forward to potentially finishing 385 next episode. Ah, look forward to it. See you then. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious, and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collectivemem.com. Today, we would like to send our gratitude to all of our Patreons, but in particular, the Furii, our top tier Patreon supporters: M. Furius Camillus, Venieii Veniara, Linda, Lex, Fredrik, Alex, Kyle, Ted, Jacob, and Joel. If you would also like to enjoy early access to our special episodes and ad-free content, then please consider becoming a partial Patreon today, or you can buy us a coffee on Ko-fi. However, if you are also rebuilding your house after the Gallic sack, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five-star review. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai