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Speaking With Returning Guest Phil Mitchell on The Sexual Abuse of Boys | Fireside Chat 227 · Honey Badger Radio

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Good morning everyone, or afternoon or evening, depending on where you are.
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This is the fireside Chat. My name is Brian Martinez and welcome to Honey
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Badger Radio. Today we have a returning guest, Phil Mitchell. He has
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recently come out with a brand new book. I put a link to it
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in the description to the Amazon link. I assume you know that there's probably
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other places you can get it too. It's called The Sexual Abuse of Boys
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and Men, Creating an Approach for Neglected Victims. Welcome to the show,
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Phil Mitchell. Thank you for having me back. Thanks for having me Yeah
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yeah, thanks, thanks for coming on. Guys. Let me know if
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everything sounds okay. We we were having some technical issues with our streaming service,
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which is why there was some confusion on Twitter and also with like our
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people who tend to watch us on other platforms like Rumble, Facebook, Twitch,
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d Live, etc. Just come on over to YouTube if you guys
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know, people share the link on YouTube and just into this stream because this
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is the only place where it's at right now. So so we have had
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this addressed, okay, So um, Phil Mitchell. Last time we spoke
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was about a year ago, actually twenty twenty two. Yeah. Um,
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and since then you started writing a book and we talked about um, your
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I guess your your particular wheelhouse or place of specific interest is sexual abuse of
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boys and men. So I guess the first thing I want to ask is
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what prompted you to write the book? Uh, well, I think,
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well, lots of things really, So I started writing it before we met
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last year, but due to various complications which will really get into, it's
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taken a while. And so what what started me writing it was one,
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If I've been very honest, I quite simply wanted to get to a certain
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age where I want to say I've written a book. I wanted to do
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that. I wanted to leave a sort of legacy, and I kind of
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like the idea that once when I'm dead and buried and I'm no longer here,
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that there's still something left behind that might make a difference. And I
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think for me, I really wanted to write a book that addressed the sexual
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abuse of boys and men, but in a way that didn't do what a
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lot of the other books suggested, which was, oh, well, you
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know, just open up more. You've got to open up more, you've
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got to talk more, and not that I'm saying there's necessarily anything wrong with
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that, But I wanted to have a book where we addressed, actually,
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how can elements of masculinity help boys and men overcome the abuse? So rather
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than demonizing masculinity and pathologizing it, but what if we actually use elements of
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what Martin Sieger who coined the phrase, what if we use archetypal masculinity to
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help boys and men overcome abuse? There were also other elements in books that
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I've read where it talked about the sexual abuse of men but not boys are
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the sexual abuse of boys but not men? And I wanted to try and
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touch upon both. And I also wanted to highlight the very in a bit
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more detailed than current books, to the particular disadvantages that are uniquely and disproportionately
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facing male victims, and identification as well. That's another issue that a lot
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of the books don't look at look at you know, if you read books
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like here in ratheram with the Big child sexual exploitation scandal that happened a few
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years ago, there's books like that that look at identifying children at risk of
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or experience in sexual exploitation. Whereas I wanted to focus on the biases that
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are in place when we try to identify boys who are victims. Yeah,
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you know, it's about the rather thing, you know, as an American,
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so I can only tell you, like how I've heard about it,
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the focus. I always thought that, or I did believe. The only
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thing I heard about that was it was exploiting, and you know, there
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was the sexual assault of girls and boys never came up. And I knew,
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because they've been doing this for ten years that that couldn't have been the
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whole story. So is it true then that there are you know, boys
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and girl victims. Yeah, well, generally speaking, yes, absolutely not
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only does the official data show as this research shows as this. I have
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a practice where I work with boys and men, and my colleagues with boys
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and men, so so we know it's definitely happening. But I think the
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Rotherham's interesting. So when I deliver training on the sexual abuse of boys and
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men, I have a slide and I'm probably gonna ruin it now for anyone
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who atends by training, But there's a slide where I will say so with
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the Rotheram CS child sexual exploitation scandal, as we often refer to it.
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There was the Jay Report and the Casey Report, and both of them kind
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of address different aspects of what happened in Rotherroom. On one of the slides
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on my PowerPoint presentation that I deliver on my training day, one of the
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slides will say in the Jay Report addressing sexual exploitation in Rotherham, how many
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boys are highlighted as victims? And the four options I give them are something
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like zero, ten, forty, or eighty, and nearly everybody picked zero.
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The answer is eighty. Yeah, of course it is. Everybody's shocked
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and I've got but it's there in black and white. Now, a lot
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of people might not have read the report. It's big, long, it
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goes on a bit, as these reports tend to do. But I think
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the point is that we listen rightly or wrongly to the media, and when
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the media of highlighted they've talked about children and people just assuming girls, or
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they've talked about girls. Those eighty boys are kind of pushed to the side
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because they're boys, and that's that's part of the problem and of curiosity.
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Are there more girls than boys or is it about the same. Well,
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I think this is the problem. So how can we answer that question and
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what what information do we need to answer the question. And arguably some might
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say, well you need to look at data that's reported, certainly here in
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England and Wales to the Office of National Statistics. No, the Office of
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National Statistics and the crime survey we use relies on reported and disclosed crimes,
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and sexual abuse is such a hidden, hidden crime that we'll never know that
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the full picture. What lots of people do is they just focus on what
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the Office of National Statistic tells us. That's all we need to know.
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No, we had to consider other sources as well and other things to get
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a wider picture. Plenty of boys and men will never engage the crime survey,
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they'll never speak to the police, but they might engage the researcher or
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someone independent. So we had to consider other sources. So the data will
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always say, oh, it happens more to girls. But as I said
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when we met last year, I would say, no, it's it's more
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accurate to say girls disclose more, they report it more. That doesn't mean
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it's definitely happening to them more. And actually, if we look at CDC
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and the data they use and the wording they use certainly for I think a
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three or four year period, more men disclosed being forced to penetrate the women
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disclosed being raped. And I think it's interestingly enough here in the UK we
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don't use what I considered a bit easily accessible male friendly language. You ask
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a guy, have you ever been a victim of sexual violence? But no,
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no, God, does your wife, our girlfriend ever force it a
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penetrator when you don't want to? Yeah, yeah, exactly, But we
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do, But we don't use the latter. We don't use the latter,
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and I suspect it's because we don't want to really know the true scale of
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male victims, because if it gets to the point where it's looking statistically like
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it's equal, well that will destroy the narrative and people will not like that.
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And so that's why I think, in my view, maybe i'm a
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bit of conspiracy theories. They don't know, but that's that's part of the
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problem. No, I agree. I think that it's true. I think
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that men are men, and boys are are less likely to report it.
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They're also less likely to recognize what has happened to them, um as what
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it is you know, and and but and then the other side of that,
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I think that women and girls are more likely. And you know,
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and this might sound bad, but if you look at the very popular Merry
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Cost study that says, you know, that that comes up with this like
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one in three one in four statistic, it's because the women were asked if
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they have ever, you know, had sex with a man and regretted it
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afterwards, and then consider that a form of rape or sexual assault. And
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so girls, the girl reporting is skewed in like a larger number than it
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probably should be, and the mail reporting is skewed much much, much lower
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than it should be. And I think that that is all contributing to this
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wider narrative, which is why people have this sort of like default, you
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know, thought process that, oh I hear lots of children are being sexually
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assaulted, they must be girls. We we kind of put this huge magnifying
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glass up against the sexual abuse or potential sexual abuse of girls and women.
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But when men, that magnifying glass turns into a blind eye or a microscope,
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right, yeah, exactly, you know, and that's part of the
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problem as well. Absolutely, um, And then to that too, So
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I wanted to also ask because there's a lot here that is unseen, you
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know, and that's kind of what you're shining a line on. You said
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that, Um, other people have written about this, but the framing is
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very in terms of like how they're gathering the data. For example, you
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say that they may they may only focus on male victims but not boy victims.
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That may focus on boy victims but not male victims. Um, why
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do you think you're You're probably the only person that's just looking at the whole
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sex. Wow. You know, I'm glad you said. I'm glad you
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said, probably because there might be something out there that I'm not aware.
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Yeah, I don't, right, there might be, Yeah, But I
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think it's because there are similarities between how boys and men are abused and issues,
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but there are also differences. It's such a vast subject, you know.
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The actual book was going to be huge, and I had to scale
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it down. So I think one of the reasons maybe that it's just very
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difficult to focus and you might have to divide your time, you know,
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So there's a practicality issue there, I think as well. But I think
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the real key thing that I've noticed is that I, to the best of
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my knowledge, my book is the only one that actually explores how elements of
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masculinity can help boys and men. I don't think it's any other book out
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there that addresses the sexual abuse of boys and men. And when I've mentioned
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this to people, they've kind of gone, what, You're encouraging people to
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get in touch with their masculinity, to use elements of their masculinity to overcome
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the abuse. And it's as if I've suggested the most weirdest thing I've got.
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Why not? And it works. I would not be doing this as
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my job if I didn't see it working. And I do see it working.
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And again, certainly in the last what eight years, maybe longer,
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there's emerging research and literature that's come out saying, actually, elements of masculin
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it can be used to help boys and men overcome views, can help them
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engage in therapy, can help them do all this sort of stuff. Whereas
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a lot of the books I've read, elements of some of these books will
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say, how can we make it easier for boys and men to talk about
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their feelings? Well, if they don't want to talk about their feelings,
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well, actually, or if they or you know, the way that men
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express themselves is just really different from the way women. It's not that men
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don't have feelings, but it's that they do, you know, they express
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them in a different way. They need us. Absolutely, it's like a
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complete It's like asking women to express them smiles, express themselves by going fishing
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and drinking beers, or going to a bowling alley or something, or playing
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a sport or problem or performing some carpentry. You know, it's not it
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doesn't work. The same problem when when we are encouraging men to engage with
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methods that are generally successful with girls and women and they don't, we pathologize
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the men and demonize them. But we would never we'd never dream the girls
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and women that they need to engage with methods that weren't with men. Oh,
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there would be outrage. We'd be canceled. It'd be shocking. And
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it's like, why can't we just accept that average and the keyword is average,
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that there are average sex differences. Women want that and if that's what
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they want and it's ethical and it helps and it gets to a positive outcome,
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what's the problem. And I'm ashamed to say it, but I'll admit
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it. Years ago, I was one of those guys that was very known.
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Men need to do what women do. Men need to open up,
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they talk about the feelings, be more verbally expressive. Oh they're coming to
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therapin. They can't talk or they won't talk. They're not engaging like women
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do. Yet these men are toxic. It's there. And I'm very ashamed
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that I had that opinion. But I was open mind enough to think,
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hang on a minut it, why do I think that? Why is it
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about? Why am I assuming that these men that I'm seeing should engage with
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me in the same way that these women are. Why should I assume that?
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And I was of the opinion that, well, there aren't really many
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differences between men and women, But the science says there are differences. There
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are more similarities and differences, but there are differences, and whilst they might
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not be great in number, they are significant in effect. And that's what
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I learned, and I adapted my practice, and I saw the difference,
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and I was wrong. Now, now you you said that you did believe
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that, and I think that that's not really shocking. I think most people
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have sort of like you know this, We've been this sort of thing,
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this this idea that men and women are interchangeable, but better more than that
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that that men need to get in touch with their feminine side, which is
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sort of like the way you get your foot in the door to like push
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this feminine way of healing onto menu. It's it's got older than us,
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like it's been around longer than we've been alive, so we come into the
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world and that's sort of like the assumption, right, So it makes sense
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that people believe it. But um, why do you think that? Why
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do you other than it's just like our programming? Do you think that there
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is another I guess you know, reason or objective here, because you couldn't
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have been and I know you thought about this. You couldn't have been the
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first person to say, wait a minute, maybe that doesn't work. Um,
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you know, maybe men have a way of of you know, doing
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things that is unique to them, you know, while also like I don't
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know, allowing for exceptions. Have you thought about why that that this this
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idea is so ubiquitous, Like is there a reason for this? Well?
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I have some I think it's because most so from a therapeutic, a counseling
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point of view, most of the people that ends to the professional women and
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most of the people, the clients a women is changing such aches from damn.
15:00
But generally speaking, that's that's kind of how it is. I think
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what's generally the question that has been asked in my experience over the recent years
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is how can we help boys and men engage in therapy. How can we
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help them engage in this therapy where they sit down, they look at someone
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they taught, they express the emotions they're talking through. How can we that
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I'm not sure the question has ever been asked, how can we change therapy
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for men? And that's the question we should be asking. And now some
15:30
people are that. I think the very fact that people were we can ask
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that because that isn't that saying that? Well, actually, if you go
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down that route, you're saying that it should be this sort of therapy for
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men and this sort of therapy for women. Well, first of all,
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what's wrong with that? And everybody thinks it's absolute. If you see a
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guy and he wants to come and he wants to cry and express his emotions
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and talking through when he went, fine, if you see woman she wants
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a more solution focused action, orientate the proj and she wants that, fine,
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if you see a man of a woman, what a mixture. We're
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both fine. But what we're doing, you know, we're not what therapy
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and sitting down and talking, expressing your emotions and all that that act traditional
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way of working. It's about how can we amend it and add it to
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make it more accessible to and inclusive of boys and men. And I think
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the problem is that some people get very protective over therapy and certain models of
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therapy as it is, and they don't want to change it. Other people
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the idea that you would need to adapt something to make it more accessible to
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men when we allege you live in this dominant patriarchal society. Oh no,
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we can't do that. So there's loads of places of kind of attacking it.
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And ultimately, rather than good, let's see what we can change in
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our therapy for men's But how can we change men to get them to engage
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in therapy? Why should we do that? Why should we do And you
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know what, well, in the bigs, the question why are why are
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men so much like so repulsed or less likely to seek therapy? And I
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think that you know people will again, you know, people in the profession
17:00
and feminists and stuff. Will say that it's because you know, of toxic
17:04
masculinity, because they're fragile, because but maybe it's because they know the therapy
17:08
is not it doesn't have their best interests as men in mind, like you've
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seen, I think we talked about it on the last time we had we
17:17
were on the show them the guidelines that the American Psychological Association put out for
17:22
treating men. It's all based in this this feminist theory of toxic masculinity.
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And it's like, yeah, it's ideological, it's it has nothing to do
17:32
with like what men need, right, It's not so of course men aren't
17:34
going to seek that out because it doesn't. It's it treats them like an
17:38
enemy, like they have a sickness that needs to be cured. It's not.
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It doesn't help them. And and you know, again allowing for like
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the exceptions or the you know, the men that sort of you know are
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not they're they're more likely to be expressive, and the women who are more
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likely to be stoic um. But leaving those those aside for a moment,
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I mean, men and women are in fact different, you know, in
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in not in a lot of ways, we're more alike than not, but
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in the ways that we are different, it's very different, and so it
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doesn't exactly Um, it's not. You can't make one way of being and
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have it be focused on the feminine and then make everything else. You know,
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and there's lots of different types of therapeutic approaches. You have person's sense
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of counseling, which believes that you know your human beings will naturally move towards
18:26
doing what they think is good for them. And sort of emotional focused.
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You've got common to be able therapy, which looks at your thoughts and your
18:33
belief that you have. You've got solution focused therapy, which is a more
18:37
practical approach. You've got different types of therapy. And the very fact there
18:40
are so many different types of therapy shows that one type does not fit at
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all. Why would we think then that one type would fit you know,
18:49
males and females. It makes no sense. You know, there are there
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are different there are differences, and those differences are not bad, they just
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are So have them apologize and then think about how you can change your practice.
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Yeah, that's what the last two chapters, certainly my book talk about
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in terms of how can you adapt your practice to make it more accessible to
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boys? And it gives a few sort of vignettes in the last chapter about
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using different therapeutic approaches with boys and men. Yeah, and um, there
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was another thing I was going to mention about sexual abuse. So I've seen
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this. It's a very popular thing that gets thrown around, which is that.
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And I don't know if you've seen this, but I bet you have.
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One of the things that is used to sort of nullify a man trying
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to express like that, you know, he has suffered abuse, whether it's
19:45
sexual abuse or otherwise, is that if the man is suffering abuse at the
19:51
hands of another man, then that that cancels it out. So I'll give
19:55
an example. Um, I was watching a clip, it's a very popular
20:00
clip that's circulated in the men's you know, rights sort of space of Joe
20:03
Rogan and he's talking to a guest about men's rights activists and he says that
20:08
they're always saying that, you know, men get raped at higher rates if
20:12
you include prison rate for example, And Joe Rogan says, yeah, but
20:17
they're being raped by other men and that and that's that's supposed to just what
20:22
I don't know what that means. Like, it's like so because women are
20:25
also raped by other women, right, although we can't call it rape because
20:30
technically it's not using a penis, But but they're they're obviously like performing something
20:34
like that, and yet we still have sympathy. We don't we don't consider
20:40
the men because if you see men as a block, then you could say,
20:42
oh, you're hitting yourself. But but if you look at them as
20:45
individuals, you obviously have predators and you have like victims, and it does
20:52
the gender is irrelevant because we're just trying to address the victims. Right,
20:56
So have you seen that, you know what I'm saying, Oh, all
20:57
the time, all tithing many different ways, not not just with abuse,
21:03
but with others as as with other issues as well. You know, if
21:07
a man is on the street, you know, a journalist from a newspaper
21:11
over here. I put something online that you said, and a journalist commented
21:15
saying, yes, but you know, you know it's an all you know,
21:18
women are scared to be on the street. And yet if you're scared,
21:21
that's terrible. We want to help you, want to support you deal
21:23
with that. And it's important to know that you're safer on the street than
21:26
men are. Men are statistically more like to get killed and mugged and stabbed
21:29
and hurt on the street than Yeah, and I journey said, yes,
21:32
but who's doing it to these other men? Film? Right, So it
21:34
doesn't matter that these men have been stabbed and killed and mugged and tagged because
21:41
they share a demographic with the person who's hurt them doesn't. And the thing
21:45
is, ultimately, if if if a person experienced any form of harm but
21:52
perpetrated by another person, we would never dream of minimizing that harm because they
21:57
share a demographic. But when it's men, it's like, hang on a
22:02
minute, who who's hurt in this man? Well, if it's another man,
22:06
oh, well we can minimize it because they're in the same gender group.
22:10
But if it's a woman, then we'll find another way to minimize it.
22:11
And yeah, yeah, we'll just go yeah, And it's and ultimately
22:17
it's the whole when it comes to boys and men perpetrators first victims last,
22:22
Yeah, that's where intersect I think that intersectionality is used in those in those
22:26
cases too. So they'll they'll they'll if they can't do it along the lines
22:30
of gender. When a woman abuses another woman, not that And I am
22:33
again like I don't care who does who the abuser is. I care about
22:37
the abused, right, and so I don't think it should matter. But
22:41
this is like the kind of these are the kind of obstacles that we're that
22:45
we're faced with, UM, because all we're asking is that can we just
22:48
take care of men? And can we do it? First? Acknowledge that
22:52
they can be victimized, because that's where it starts, right, this is
22:56
the joke about prison prison rape, Like because men are doing it, that
23:00
makes it okay. Um, But first we have to acknowledge that the victimization
23:06
is real, that these people are hurting, and and that like, because
23:08
they are human beings, because they are men, we should be providing them
23:12
with the best services for their situation. This is why we have to get
23:18
away from the sort of ideological focus in therapy. UM. And there's a
23:23
there's like a host of other problems. I had a guest on I don't
23:27
have her name, but maybe I can give you her contact information because you
23:30
find her very interesting. She Um was a woman that worked with psychopaths,
23:37
like like guys that had committed murders and rapes like prisoners, right, and
23:42
the what she discovered and we knew this already, but what she discovered was
23:47
that the overwhelming majority, like over ninety five percent of men that are in
23:52
prison for violent crimes have themselves been abused as children. And so they Yeah,
24:00
and this is like goes goes along with Aaron Pittsie's study. What she
24:03
discovered about women in her shelters that they were you know, they have been
24:07
abused as children as well by their mothers, and then they in turn will
24:11
abuse their spouse because it usually the you know, domestic violence situations are reciprocal,
24:17
and then in turn they will abuse their own children and so like there,
24:21
this shouldn't be a shock to anyone. But again it's one of these
24:23
things that you want to blame the criminal. I agree, we have laws,
24:26
they should serve time. But if you want to stop that, if
24:30
you want to understand where you need to understand where it comes from, and
24:33
you have to break the cycle of violence. Does that make sense? Yeah,
24:37
it does make sense. And I think often what I see is when
24:40
men have committed certain crimes, you get a massive public outcryger and oh,
24:45
well, you know, lock them up do this and all that, and
24:48
we don't really put much focus on their background the abuse. But when a
24:52
woman commits a certain type of crime, she had a really tough time,
24:56
she was abused, she's younger, she did all this and all of that,
24:57
and that may or may not be true. But again, and to
25:00
some degree, that might explain why, to some degree she did what.
25:04
She doesn't justify it. Yeah, no, of course not. And that's
25:08
that's the thing. So again you see the bias, you see the difference
25:11
there. Yeah, yeah, I think that sometimes I wonder if the reason
25:15
why they don't look into the the you know, the the sort of like
25:18
upbringing of these men is that there's like this assumption that this is the state
25:23
of men, and that them not being violent or abusive is like that you
25:29
know, them trying to resist their their you know, toxically masculine urges to
25:33
hurt people, you know what I mean. And I mean like, like
25:36
it's the assumption is men are animals until they they're domesticated, you know,
25:41
usually by women, but that women are you know, they're they're they're put
25:45
into extreme circumstances to make them into violent offenders. And uh, it's a
25:51
it's a shame, but I do think that it's a popular notion, you
25:53
know that people have so what what? So you do have a section I
25:59
noticed I was looking at your book and I see that there's do you you
26:03
mentioned Erin Pitsy and Deborah Powney and but we've had both of them on our
26:07
show. Deborah is like she's been on a number of times. So,
26:12
um, what what to what the extent are you using some of their work
26:18
in your book? Uh? So, Erin is briefly mentioned, so m
26:25
it was Martin Sieger, who is a chart psychologist, as I mentioned that
26:29
he was a huge help in helping me shape the book, and it was
26:34
he that mentioned, you know, you haven't mentioned ern piziphially you probably should
26:37
and when? And I thought, actually, err, he makes a very
26:41
good point. Why am I not? So I kind of briefly mentioned the
26:44
response that Aaron got when she said, actually, you know where we're highlighting
26:48
the you know, yeah, there's these abusive men and there's these abusive women
26:51
and it's like I cancel you immediately. Yeah, kind of highlighted that.
26:55
And and Erin did has read the book and she's left a favorable review on
26:59
the page, So that's Calabarians involvement. Deborah as as Um has also given
27:07
another review on the back page. She's left a great review. But a
27:11
lot of the work that Deborah and her colleague supervisor Nicola Graham Pounies Nicola Graham
27:15
Kevin has done, They've looked at most of coercive control and domestic abuse when
27:18
it comes to male victims. So there are differences, but there are also
27:22
some similarities and parallels between victims of domestic abuse victims of sexual abuse. Sometimes
27:29
it's separate, sometimes they're both. So I've kind of referenced a lot of
27:32
their work and looked at how it's how it's similar because we can can't you
27:34
know, both fields, I think can kind of teach each other something.
27:37
Yeah, Deborah does them. I remember I haven't talked to her in a
27:41
while, but she talks to Hannah a lot. She was doing this UM
27:47
program where men would go on walks and hikes and and you know, it
27:51
was like, I guess that was like a form of you know, therapy,
27:55
which is what we're talking about. UM. That's good for them,
27:57
and they were also adult I believe adult victims of abuse, So well,
28:03
why do you think. And it's okay if we get a little bit conspiratory,
28:07
because I have theories about this. I have theories about this. But
28:10
why do you think people do respond so poorly to like Aaron Pittsy's conclusions.
28:17
I mean it got so bad they killed her dog and drove her out of
28:18
the country. I mean, this isn't just a misunderstanding like there was she
28:23
was touching a nerve and she wasn't aware. And this was in the seventies,
28:30
so you know, this has been going on for decades and decades.
28:33
Um, Why are people so repulsed by this? Why does the American Psychological
28:37
Association not know better when it comes to how men should be, you know
28:41
treated? I mean there, I wouldn't think that they're dumb because they're you
28:45
know, they went to school, they have degrees. Well, I should
28:48
say as well. Here in England, the BPS, the British Psychological Society,
28:53
they have in partnership with us the right word to use with Martin See
29:00
and John Barry, who are charted psychologists. They've developed their briefing paper their
29:03
guidance on working therapeutically and psychologically with with with men, and actually it references
29:12
all the science, a lot of the logic, the stuff that it should
29:15
have been with the APA, so that you know that that's been great.
29:19
But in answer to your question, you know, I genuinely think it's the
29:23
narrative that we must maintain at all costs regardless. Is women victims, men
29:33
perpetrators? It really is. And if it means that men have to suffer,
29:38
men are scapegoating, men are falsely accused men as well, that's the
29:44
price that we're willing to pay. But the problem is you're not the ones
29:47
paying the price. It's these men that are paying the price. And if
29:49
and if the ideological view that you have of men are bad, men are
29:53
perpetrators, men are inherently abusive, they're all got toxic masculary they're part of
29:57
the patriarchy, male privilege, ah and all that sort of stuff. Right,
30:02
Well, if that, if that crumbles in the face of logic,
30:06
then you go to the other one, which is, yes, but women
30:07
are victims, and women are victims, and women are victims, and it's
30:11
it's this whole Hang on a minute, let's stop peddling this ideological, rigid,
30:17
hateful, oversimplified narrative. And rather than being so black and white.
30:22
Let's look at the gray in the middle. And as I can say,
30:26
let's think there are there are types of harm that a minority of men are
30:32
more likely to perpetrate. There are types of harm and minority of women are
30:37
more likely to perpetrate. However we don't talk about that. There are types
30:40
of harm men are more likely to or just as likely to experience, but
30:45
we can't focus on that because we have to focus on there is harm that
30:48
women are more likely to experience or experience just at the similar rates to men.
30:52
And that's the narrative. It's all women have got it to over and
30:56
it's all the fault of men, and the fact that we have so many
30:59
massive organizations, the un the government, lots of things saying and perhaps in
31:03
some ways it's morefets like implying that this narrative is right. It's like,
31:07
no, it's let's challenge that it's just so rigidly ideological, humorously and embarrassing.
31:15
Yeah, it is coming from a lot of like very big, top
31:18
down institutions. This isn't like, you know, a grassroots thing, right,
31:22
um, and that makes it harder to combat. So so it sounds
31:27
like in the UK, at least in this particular area. You're starting to
31:33
like grasp at like sanity when it comes to these numbers, which is good,
31:40
Which is good. I do have some super some messages. We got
31:44
them super chows, so I'm one of them. Is a question for you.
31:47
So I'm gonna read these really quick. So first I got let me
31:51
just double check. Here, I got five dollars from the Leading Edge and
31:55
they say, have some money badgers. You guys are the anime protagonists that
31:59
push through the energy beam attack no matter how powerful the attack seems. Well,
32:02
thank you the Leading Edge for that esoteric comment. I appreciate it.
32:08
And then we have a twelve dollars super child from an anonymous person. They
32:13
did give us her name, and they said, question for Paul, do
32:16
you consider male genital mutilation rape? Because I consider it rape with a blade.
32:22
There's often penetration of the foreskin, forced retraction, and tearing of the
32:27
foreskin. In Orthodox Judaism, the mutilation is followed by oral sex by the
32:31
mohel. In the US, most mutilations occur because women are offended by natural
32:37
penises, and in countries where girls are subjected to female genital mutilation, papers
32:43
show that those women would not marry a man that's not mutilated, but the
32:46
men would have no problem marrying a woman that is intact. If we accept
32:51
MGM as rape, then I would argue that males are raped more often than
32:54
females. Okay, well, first of all, I don't know who Paule
33:00
is, but because I think Bill, but I think it's spelled wrong.
33:05
Okay, so all right, we're not answering your question. Sorry, I
33:09
think I think I'm not sure again, it's this is this is what A
33:14
lot of the arguments and debates come down to the meaning of words. What
33:16
do words mean and how do we interpret them? You know, patriarchy for
33:21
example, what is that? What's your definition? What's my definition? If
33:24
I certainly think that male genital mutilation needs to be taken a lot more seriously
33:30
than it is, and it needs to be given significantly more attention than it
33:34
currently gets, I'm not sure about rate because then we have to look at
33:37
the definition of rape. So if we look at the definition here in England
33:40
again, it's the penis being you know, penetrating the mouth inis or vagina
33:44
or the victim, and so that that, you know, I think what
33:46
we're doing is before we can consider that rate, we need to look at
33:49
the definition of rape. So I think it gets a little bit more complicated
33:52
than a yes or no answer. I think we need to look at that
33:55
in a in a bit more detail first, because then it would be well
33:59
if that's but then how many of the things are and aren't rape? So
34:02
I think maybe before we talk about what we define legally as right, personally,
34:06
I think we need to be looking at changing the definition of rape where
34:09
it can be perpetrated by a woman not just a man, right, I
34:14
mean, I guess for me, and then this is a bit of a
34:16
digression, but I appreciate it's certainly abuse, and it certainly traumatizes children.
34:22
Boys, yes, and girls if but we don't do it to girls,
34:27
and we consider that, you know, civilized that we don't do it to
34:31
girls, but we do do it to boys. Um, it's certainly abusive,
34:35
it's certainly violence, it's certainly you know, and and affront to human
34:39
rights because you know, it's an affront to bodily autonomy. So I don't
34:44
even think it's necessary to call it rape because it's already all these other terrible
34:49
things. I understand though in the UK UM it's not like normal practice on
34:55
boys. Like I guess I know that Philip Davies it this great. He's
35:00
an MP there, right, he did this great UM talk where he basically
35:06
said that if we are making it illegal to do this to girls, and
35:09
it should be illegal to do it to boys. And I understand that.
35:14
I guess it's not done, but people do it anyway like they have.
35:17
Yeah, I think I think the general I'm not an expert on this.
35:22
I only know a bits and bobs, but I think the interest is that
35:25
if it's done for legit male off email, if it's done for legitimate health
35:31
medical. I have a friend who, for example, who I know,
35:36
went through a circumcision, but without that he would have been in a lot
35:38
of pain and he needed to go through it, and so on and so
35:40
on. But this is when he was an adult. This is not like
35:44
when he was born, right or no, not when he was born.
35:45
I think he was. It was a it was a young he was about
35:49
eleven or twelve or something like that. He knew there was a problem down
35:53
there. He spoke to his pair and went to the doctors. Doctors went
35:55
right, you need to do this, otherwise you will be in pain.
35:58
And he's not been in pain since. But I think when there's something like
36:00
I believe I need to physically alter parts of your body because of reasons?
36:08
What reasons? Why? Yeah? Why? What reasons? It's funny because,
36:14
like you know, he mentions Judaism. Okay, so there's religious reasons
36:16
in that context. But in the United States, it seems that if you
36:21
don't, if you don't specifically tell the doctor not to do it, they
36:23
just do it, like they assume that everyone. So my mother didn't let
36:28
any of her kids do it, so I'm not But like I think that
36:31
at the end of the day, it should certainly not be done to newborns.
36:36
It should not be done at birth because we don't do it to girls.
36:37
But but just by the by the by the general idea that like you
36:42
know, we're born the way we're born, like we we can't go in
36:45
modifying things, you know, Like, Okay, that's the question. Does
36:47
it harm? What harm does it do? To believe it is it if
36:51
it hurts, if it calls its physical pain, if it harms you,
36:53
if there's any other ideological you know, whatever, and even if you know
36:57
religious, it's that well, actually, whatever religious you do, I don't
37:00
believed. What about letting that young person get to a point where he or
37:02
she can make their own mind. I agree one hundred percent. Yeah,
37:06
if any if, if you do it, it should be your choice,
37:07
full stop. Unless you know, again, if you're like you said,
37:12
you have like a special medical condition. But yeah, otherwise, yeah,
37:16
but thank you for the Thank you for the donation, anonymous person, appreciate
37:21
it. I hope you understand where we're coming from. So all right,
37:25
So about masculinity. The masculinity has been a very big topic lately on the
37:34
internets and in these circles. I have been one of the reasons why I
37:39
got interested in doing this kind of content where I wanted to address men's issues.
37:45
One of the primary things I was concerned with was the state of men
37:49
and masculinity because it seems like we're living in a time where male masculinity as
37:57
it is, and I'm not putting it in a box, being very clear
38:00
that there's lots of ways to be masculine. It's not going to the gym
38:04
and playing sports and bro fisting people. That's that's a silly caricature. But
38:08
um, I want to. I think it's very important that men are okay
38:15
with themselves as they are as men. And I think that we are bombarded
38:20
every day all the time with messaging and narratives that say the opposite that you
38:25
know, masculinity should be this way and it should be more feminine. And
38:30
we learned this in school with you know, the way that the curriculums operate,
38:35
um, the the um, let's say in literature. So I did
38:38
substitute teaching for a while, and I was the only male teacher in most
38:45
of the schools. But that was weird because I was there as a substitute.
38:49
The other men that were there, they were like they were coaches and
38:52
gym teachers and security guards and you know, hall monitors and stuff. But
38:59
but um not teachers. And I noticed that the boys they were reading,
39:02
or the classrooms rather, were reading books that I never heard of. They
39:07
didn't, they weren't. They were like, uh, stories about relationships and
39:10
stories about you know, um uh friendship, and then these kind of social
39:15
dynamics like and it was cool because the girls loved it, but the boys
39:20
were distracted. And and then when when when we the boys are not interested,
39:23
they want to read books that I read when I was a child,
39:27
like Treasure Island or The Time Machine or you know these adventure stories. Right,
39:31
Um, that's what you know, the Three Musketeers, that's what draws
39:36
boys in. They want to see, you know, heroics, they want
39:38
to learn about King Arthur, you know, and um, so that's taken
39:43
from them. And then when those boys don't pay attention, we medicate them
39:46
because we think, oh, there's something wrong with them. So you can
39:50
sort of trace this, I think anyway, all the way down to like
39:54
you could even you could start from when they're born and they're in they're you
39:58
know, circumcised, and then go from there. But um, I think
40:01
so I'm very concerned about masculinity because I think that it's it's been under attack
40:06
for a long time and it's been a very effective attack to soosterone levels are
40:09
very low, sperm counts are really low. Our population, I don't know
40:15
if you know this, but our population is heading for a massive implosion because
40:19
there are fewer babies being born and people are growing older, and so you
40:23
know, like the the infrastructure and all of the kind of support that we
40:29
would normally have for people as they age is shrinking because the people who put
40:32
into that system is fewer because we're having fewer families there are, you know.
40:37
And then you have like all these men that are not able to find
40:40
partners, are not able to pair up, and so you have this growing
40:45
problem. And I think that at the root of it is, or at
40:49
least one of the main things at the root of it, is an abandonment
40:52
of healthy masculinity. You know. I don't I don't even want to call
40:57
it traditional because it's not something that we practice. It's just our nature,
41:01
you know. And um, and I think that when you shame it that
41:04
much, I mean, you're gonna we're really headed towards a cliff right now,
41:07
I think. So, I guess what I want to ask is in
41:12
your book, do you write about some of the things that I guess you
41:16
propose as a new way to help men and boys. We've already talked about
41:22
recognizing abuse and acknowledging it as real, so now I'm basically talking about what
41:27
are some pathways that we can offer men. Well, when when it comes
41:31
to sort of masculinity that the message really is, don't think it's bad,
41:37
don't think masculinity is bad. And even if a man or a boy uses
41:42
his masculinity to abuse and harm and hurt other people, that doesn't mean the
41:45
masculinity is bad. It's it's the masculinity is just the masculinity. And Martin
41:52
Seger, this is a little quote he gave me, So I can't take
41:54
credit for this. I'm a thread. He said, back a hammer.
41:58
You can have a hammer and bash them more overhead with it and kill them.
42:00
You can have a hammer and build a house. The hammer is not
42:02
toxic or good or about the hammers. Just the hammer. How you use
42:06
it, that's on you. It's the same. So if we look at
42:09
it might work around archetypeal masculinity, which are things are elements do with fighting
42:15
and winning, providing and protecting success, control, that sort of thing,
42:20
mastering things. Then those elements they're generally seen as bad, but actually those
42:23
elements can be present as been really good. There are ways that you can
42:27
fight that are positive, win success positive, provide and protecting a positive way,
42:31
taking control in a good, healthy, positive way, and using them
42:35
within therapy. Whether you use the word masculinity or not depends on the client
42:39
you're working with. But actually they can help boys and men overcome the abuse
42:44
and using those elements within the therapy, you know, certain words that you
42:47
might drop in at, certain ways you might move, certain action orientated language
42:52
and movement and all of that. It can help those boys and men engaging
42:55
in that therapy. So it's about your masculinity, isn't Guys I've seen him
43:00
over the years that have said toxic masculinity. Oh, it's all bad.
43:04
And some of them are angry because they don't like being told that. Others
43:07
are going, well, it must be true, because everyone in my life
43:09
is saying. If people online are saying I media, I've gone yeah,
43:13
but what does that mean? What? What does it mean? What have
43:15
they said? And all of that? What what does your masculinity mean to
43:19
you? What is it? What is it not? And all often reframing
43:22
it, so, you know, saying things such as, you know,
43:24
I worked with a guy and he was attacked and the guy and the guy
43:30
that attacked him, once he'd hit him, he ran off and he basically
43:35
said, well, I'm not a real man. I'm not a real man.
43:37
So we added his up. What is a real man? What does
43:38
that mean? You know? Biological man? Really? You know, ideal
43:42
and what does that mean to explore that? But and I'm just weak and
43:45
ampathetic and all of this, and says, okay, so you think you're
43:50
masculine, it has been threatened. I'm yeah, okay, and I says
43:52
okay, So that means, so you've got this guy. He is with
43:57
you, he's sort of squaring up to you're you're you're on a vehicle,
44:01
and then all of a sudden, the doors open, and when the doors
44:06
opened, this guy assaults you and then legs it. And that's so do
44:10
you think he did that because he might have been scared of you? Yeah?
44:15
Oh yeah. Do you think he's scared of you because you present as
44:19
a you know, a masculine threat or not? Or what? Oh?
44:23
I never thought of it like that. Art got yet. So as soon
44:27
as they start to say that I never thought of it like that, you
44:29
know that they're thinking is changing and they pursue their situation differently and that and
44:34
famous, that's great. I feel better. I see myself as different.
44:37
And actually, yeah, he probably did hit me and legging because he knows
44:39
that I'd have clubbed in one hour, have stood up to him and all
44:43
that, and that's why. Yeah, So actually you are still a big,
44:45
strong and there soun's nothing wrong with your masculate it's your perception of it
44:49
that might be a little bit problematic, but we can work on that.
44:51
So reframing and getting people to see then it's not bad. And the amount
44:55
of guys I've spoken so I've had similar conversations like this and get them to
44:59
see it, they've gone never thought of it like that. Oh I suppose,
45:00
Yeah, I suppose. Actually my masculinity. Actually, without my masculinity,
45:05
I won't be where I am in life now. Yeah, I succeeding
45:07
the way I have and I oh, I'd never thought of it like that,
45:10
right, So maybe you know how you've used those elements of your masculinity
45:15
has been good for you and your family. Yeah, how could that be
45:17
bad? Yeah? Of course of course it helps them say that, but
45:22
they're so ideological rubbish put in their heads and it's like trying to get out.
45:27
Let's let's maybe see it differently. I agree. I did get another
45:31
superchow to follow up from the same anonymous person before they gives another five dollars
45:36
and says, sorry, Phil, I'm a bit dyslexic. So your name
45:42
I've been called worse things than Paul so um. So you know, when
45:50
you mentioned the hammer, I thought about something. So I'm I'm like really
45:52
into stories, and I think that stories are very important to our culture,
45:58
and it tells us about ourselves, especially when they are about like reality,
46:01
if they're if they're truthful, and I mean truthful in the sense that not
46:06
that they're factually accurate or historically accurate, but truthful in the sense that they
46:08
say something about the human condition like a universal than. What one thing I
46:13
thought about was the myth of the Norse god of thunder Thor, who wields
46:17
a hammer, right, and in the reason why he wielded a hammer,
46:23
from what I understand is that the hammer can be used, as you said,
46:27
either to build or to destroy, and so it comes and a man
46:31
is like that too, right, And I think that all of this really
46:37
negative messaging that men get, I think that to some degree, you know,
46:42
it does kind of condition them to resent their identity, like their their
46:47
masculinity. Because if you notice, like we live in a world now where
46:52
we have all of these genders and there's all of this broad you know,
46:59
ways of seeing things, and there's oh, you can be you know,
47:01
this far on the on the feminine side and like whatever, But there's not
47:06
really a space that's just for men who are masculine, Like that's kind of
47:10
excluded. It's like you can be it's like there really is two genders.
47:14
There's like all of the other genders, including women, and then there's just
47:17
men and and and that and and because so you see this kind of like
47:23
if you look at it as a like the rainbow, no pun intended,
47:28
but like the spectrum, and on the very end it starts with red that's
47:32
masculinity, and all the other colors are all the other genders going all the
47:36
way to the ultra violet spectrum um. And I think that when you this
47:43
exclusion is palpable, men can feel that. And I think this is why
47:47
they're confused, they're frustrated, they're angry. And it's affecting women too,
47:52
because you know, most women like masculine men. I mean they and when
47:57
I say again, when I say masculine, I don't mean they go to
48:00
the gym every day in their bodybuilding. I mean that they are, you
48:02
know, sort of a person that say recognizes their impact on the world.
48:10
Does that make sense? So if there. They could be intellectual, they
48:14
could be fatherly, they could be they could be athletic, whatever, they
48:19
could be learning a skill, they could be artists. Um, but they're
48:22
but they're aware of the impact that their actions have on the world. I
48:28
think that is how you know, um, the simplest way to frame it.
48:31
And and the thing is is that women could benefit from that too,
48:35
because women can also have, you know, a sense of their own impact
48:38
on the world. And since we're always painting women as victims, we act
48:42
like they have no impact whatsoever and men have all of the impact. Do
48:45
you see what I'm saying? Absolutely, and I think it's more than reasonable
48:50
to say that many, maybe even most of the women in the world today
48:54
with a male partner, they have that male partner because or partly because they
49:01
were attracted to some sort of display of masculinity. Yeah, and so there's
49:08
and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think when we say the word
49:14
masculine, nout, we immediately dumped the extreme that harmful, and it's like
49:19
hangout no, no, no, no, it's and again it's like that
49:22
that that's just that's masculinity being used in a certain way or being displayed in
49:27
a certain way. There's other ways it's been displayed. The elements, the
49:30
traits, if we call it, that are there, and absolutely how they're
49:34
displayed is a different issue perhaps, Yes, absolutely. Um. So speaking
49:40
of have you, I assume that you know about the Johnny depth trial.
49:45
I think that you mentioned it in a little bit about it. Yeah,
49:49
a little bit. I hear it's been people have been talking about. It's
49:52
been going around Nick Wallace, who was the investigative journalist, and I know
49:54
that some people have got different views on some of his work. I did
50:00
an interview with him and he you know, about the Johnny Depp trial,
50:02
and I specifically focused on the the the issue of when when Johnny Depp wanted
50:10
to walk away and Amber Heard would not let him or she'd follow him.
50:14
And that's a massive part of the work. I do a lot of boys
50:15
and memories like what walk away? Is you taking control but your partner needs
50:20
to let you and then you know there's there's sort of discussions around that.
50:23
So that was one of the things I spoke to Nick about about the Johnny
50:27
Depp trial. So, yes, I'm familiar. I don't know everything about
50:30
it, I will say, yeah, yeah, I'm rewatching the trial at
50:32
mine. It's a big, long thing, but yeah, absolutely, yeah,
50:35
I'm familiar with it. Yeah yeah, So so what about the response,
50:40
because I think that's more important. So we had two trials. Johnny
50:45
Depp was up against the Sun, right and I know that you're aware of
50:49
that, and he lost that case. Um, and so then he was
50:53
also but he also had another trial with Amber Heard, which was right here
50:58
in Virginia. UM. And I went to the There was a day after
51:04
the verdict where I got to meet the lawyers, you know, briefly and
51:08
uh talk to them and they're very nice. Even the what you know,
51:12
lawyer's per heard were nice too. But the there is a narrative that's come
51:16
out. So there's two there's two stories. Okay. You have the media's
51:22
narrative, which is that Johnny Depp somehow managed to get away with being an
51:28
abuser. And and they what the media does is they they cite the you
51:32
know, he lost this case with the Sun, therefore, you know,
51:37
no other cases matter, even though the case against the Sun and the case
51:39
against Herd are different. And it makes me wonder like why would they why
51:45
are they fighting this so hard? And I think it's about this narrative.
51:46
But then you have the response on social media, and I've noticed more support
51:52
for male victims in this particular case from women than I have for anything else.
51:58
Now, a lot of it probably has to knew with the fact that
52:00
he's Johnny Depp and you know, kind of a kind of a hard throb.
52:05
But but I do think that it is making people aware that male victims
52:10
can exist, right, Yeah, absolutely, I think the interest. You
52:15
know, there's there's certainly many comments out there, you know, so as
52:17
as a you know, I've been attacked like I've had. I had a
52:21
few death threats from people supporting amhberhood. You know we're gonna find oh yeah,
52:24
yeah, not not many, but you know, if you but yeah,
52:29
horrible, horrible stuff. And it's a case well you know what,
52:30
Look, this is my view. You disagree, disagree, fine, but
52:34
this is my view. You're not going to you know, I've watched the
52:36
trial. I've done all of that, and I think it's interesting. This
52:38
is so I'm I'm I'm I'm a gay man, and a lot of people
52:42
follow me on Twitter know that I'm a gay man, and they've often said,
52:45
Phil give it a rest. Johnny Depp is not gonna want to get
52:49
into bed with you. Marriage is what. Really, He's not. Oh
52:54
my god, I've been doing this for nothing all this time. Oh my
52:58
god, you're to I mean, how stupid. Yeah. Really, I
53:01
don't care where who he is, what he is, but I care about
53:07
the fact that he's a man that has been abused. And it's another example
53:10
of how some what some female perpetrators will manipulate and weaponize the concept of victimhood
53:19
to portray themselves with the perpetrate they had a victim. And the thing is
53:22
the information from the trial in the UK, all of the information that was
53:28
used to label him as a wife beater, that information was assessed in a
53:32
lot more detail, over a longer period via a more rigorous way, and
53:37
it was looked at in a lot more detail, and it found. And
53:40
the bottom that is a jury unanimously found that she defamed with malice on all
53:44
accounts. That is never going to change. She did not appeal and I
53:47
do a blamer, I think, you know, and so I think it's
53:51
think. On the day that Johnny Depp took the stand, I got three
53:57
phone calls from three men who had said they'd seen Johnny Depponstein. What happened
54:01
to him sort of happened to them, and they now want to deal with
54:05
it and they want therapy. And so actually, and I'm just one guy
54:08
that had three phone calls in one day from men that had been abused by
54:13
their exes and seeing Debt made them think I'm going to say something. I'm
54:16
going to talk to someone that's brilliant. That's an amazing outcome. And just
54:21
because you know, tabloids don't have the best reputation at the best of the
54:25
times, and so I think ultimately, just because one, two or a
54:30
handful of journalists with perhaps a biased ideological mindset who have got the power to
54:38
print a newspaper that goes out to hundreds of thousands of people across the country,
54:43
they are still individual people with their own views and opinions. They just
54:47
put them in the paper. Doesn't mean it's right. Oh and again,
54:52
people watch the trial. People were invested, They saw it from start to
54:55
finish, and you can put any twist on it, you can put your
54:58
opinion on it. Well, I believe he did that because of this.
55:00
I believe she fine. You can debate, disagree, and all of that
55:06
sort of stuff. But we've heard, you know, so much embarrassing commentary
55:14
that really I just don't know how you can come back from that way.
55:16
You know, Camille Vasquay is absolutely shredded it to pieces on standard did Yes,
55:23
she was very good? Um, And once again, guys, just
55:27
a reminder really quick, because we're getting close to the end here. The
55:30
book is the Sexual Abuse of Boys and Men, Creating an approach for neglected
55:35
victims. You can get it on Amazon. I put a link in the
55:37
descriptions. You can look at it. Do you do you think? Um?
55:40
Would it be a good idea to like have? Have you ever considered
55:43
getting an audiobook made? So it's something I've been speaking to the publishers about.
55:49
We're in discussions. It might be. There's certainly going to be a
55:52
e book in coming out a few weeks, okay, And I think I'm
55:57
not an expert. I think with the ebook that comes with some sort of
56:00
audio stuff built in, but I'm not sure about an audio thing just yet.
56:04
With the indiscussions about it. Yeah, all right, well I hope
56:07
you do. And if you do, maybe get I don't know, somebody
56:09
famous to do it. Get Johnny Depp to do? Hey need something?
56:16
Yeah, did get Johnny Depp to do? Or you know Greg Ellis.
56:20
He's a good friend of Johny Depps and I had him on the show.
56:22
You know what Greg Ellis is? Yeah, yeah, I did. I
56:25
I was. I asked him and oh gosh, I can't remember her name.
56:30
Isn't that terrible? Him and a female actress, Sophire Miles. They
56:35
did a podcast together, and I asked, I asked, I asked a
56:38
question, and so I briefly spoke to them both and they were both lovely.
56:42
So yeah, yeah, I think it would be great. I mean,
56:45
I'm sure it's a fantastic book, and I I'm glad that it exists.
56:49
I think we need more stuff like this. Hopefully it will sell well
56:52
and then other you know, people writing on this subject, um will sort
56:57
of like broaden their horizons, you know, so have you So the Johnny
57:01
Depp thing was kind of a milestone, I think, um, because it
57:06
did. Like you said, I think there were men who were watching this
57:08
unfold and they were like, I mean, holy shit, like I think
57:13
I've been through something like this, you know, or I can't believe that
57:17
this is actually being put out because I think what what happens with a lot
57:21
of men who are abused is they don't think that anyone will listen, and
57:24
why would they. I mean, what happens when men speak up, right,
57:28
They they've already been put into what Mao called a black category. So
57:34
you know they in Moose, China, they would create black categories. And
57:37
if you fall into that, then no one will you will be dismissed.
57:42
You're you're allowed to be dismissed right out. And men is one of the
57:45
first ones we did. That's why when you know you have um, the
57:50
discussions on I don't know, abortion, or the discussions on what children are
57:54
learning in schools, like the queerying of children or things like that, it's
57:59
always mothers that are there making a fuss because the men, they're not allowed
58:02
to talk about it, right, So you know, my body, my
58:06
choice, whatever it is. So men have to stay quiet. And that
58:08
also applies to things like sexual assault and and interpersonal violence. So men don't
58:15
speak up because they've already been sort of like put in there, you know,
58:19
in the in their little uh. I guess you could say like a
58:22
cage or um where you know, a stable and there's hold to stay there
58:25
until we ask them for their opinion. But after this, I think more
58:30
men are realizing that, you know, their their mental health matters. They
58:34
need help and they're going to ask for it. So have you, um,
58:37
I mean, do you do this as a practice? Do you?
58:40
Like? Uh? Okay? So have you seen a change and like the
58:45
your your clients well? As I say, the biggest change I saw was
58:49
when three guys got in touch with me on the window and Depth took the
58:52
stand. I have heard some people that I have worked with talking about how
59:00
the Depth case sort of opened their eyes and made them feel actually, you
59:06
know, yeah, I'm not a millionaire like he is, but age.
59:08
You know what, maybe it's a good time for male victims to be heard
59:12
now and finally be acknowledged. And I know that other colleagues that I work
59:16
closely with or that I supervise, they've also said yeah, yeah. We've
59:21
had people mentioning Johnny Depp and they've said, oh, well, this happened
59:23
to me when I was younger, or my ex did this to me,
59:25
and I never thought it was abuse, but actually now have a depth I'm
59:29
like, yeah, I suppose it was abuse. And you often. What
59:31
I find as well is that you get guys that go, well, this
59:35
person, they didn't physically hurt me and I didn't feel scared, So it
59:39
can't be abuse. Yes it can. You can absolutely be abused in lots
59:43
of ways. You might not feel fear and you might not feel physical pain,
59:47
but it can still be sexual abuse domestic abuse. It's not defined by
59:52
how you feel or any pain, any the severity of the pain your Because
59:58
if your partner is constantly happing you across the face and you don't want them
1:00:01
to, and you don't feel scared, but you're angry and you feel disrespected
1:00:06
as then that's domestic ABUSI if you whether you feel terrified or not, whether
1:00:09
it physically hurts a lot or just a little bit, it's still abuse.
1:00:13
Absolute. Um well, I'm gonna have to wrap it up. I do
1:00:19
have a super another super child from I think the same person for five dollars,
1:00:23
thank you, anonimous guy. And they say, would you include male
1:00:27
general mutilation as a topic in a second edition? I don't know. Maybe,
1:00:32
I mean, I think I'd need to know more about I don't want
1:00:35
to write about things that I don't know A lot about um, So I
1:00:37
wouldn't say no. I think at the minute, I'm just trying to deal
1:00:40
with the fact that this is out there, the idea of writing, the
1:00:45
idea of writing another book fills me with dread. I you know, how
1:00:50
long did it take you? Too far? Too long? Far too long?
1:00:55
Rewritten three times or too long? So I think before I even consider
1:01:00
writing another book about anything. Yeah, I want to. I want to
1:01:04
just chill and relax. Specially, I think there's other people out there that
1:01:07
are probably better place than me. It's not it's not it's not about me
1:01:10
doing it. It's about the right person doing it. And I'm not sure
1:01:14
right now that I'm not right person. Yeah, yeah, and now you
1:01:16
are. Are you pretty self critical about your work? I can be.
1:01:22
I mean sometimes I like to think that I'm balanced and I'm rational. Sometimes
1:01:28
I'm completely crazy and completely irrational and close the world off and be on my
1:01:32
own, and a fresh pair of eyes comes in and goes, Phil,
1:01:36
you're being stupid. Yeah, sometimes what I need. So you're you're pretty
1:01:39
happy with the way that turned out? Then? Or are you unsure?
1:01:44
I'm happy enough? Yeah enough, I'll go that I'm happy. I'm happy
1:01:49
that it's done. Yeah, I'm happy enough with how it's I've read.
1:01:54
I've read the hard copy in like, oh god, that full stop needs
1:01:58
to go there. There should be a gap between nap there and I'm like,
1:02:00
uh, you know, it's not going to be perfect. Every well
1:02:04
known book in the world has got little fit. I'm not going to worry.
1:02:06
Yeah, if you wait until it's perfect, it'll never it'll never happen
1:02:08
exactly. Yeah, So it's got to come out there. People can nitpick
1:02:13
it if they want to. Um, but I'm sure that overall, the
1:02:15
message, the central messaging is there. So again, that's the sexual abuse
1:02:21
of boys and men, creating an approach for neglected victims. Look for it
1:02:24
on paperback and I guess wait on the Greg Ellis audiobook. I'm kidding,
1:02:31
but pick it up. Pick it up because if it if it, if
1:02:34
he makes enough on it, then then he can like do more, you
1:02:37
know with it. And I think that more of more books on subjects like
1:02:42
this need to come out and they need to come to the forefront. So,
1:02:45
um, a couple of final thoughts before we before we wrap up.
1:02:50
So number one, what are you working? I mean, I know you're
1:02:52
not doing a book. But what else are you doing right now other than
1:02:55
your therapy work and stuff. Are you still doing blogs? Are you doing
1:02:59
any interviews? Are you appearing out the podcast? It's interesting I did a
1:03:02
podcast immediately before this one, so I was trying to kind of balance,
1:03:07
so I did a podcast. So I'm doing a few podcasts. I've got
1:03:08
a few others coming up, just talking about the book and other things as
1:03:12
well. I'm kind of working a bit less, I'm quite I'm fortunate enough
1:03:15
that actually I'm rather than working five days a week because i've been, I'm
1:03:20
thinking of going down and working four days a week, so so just have
1:03:23
a little bit more time, chill out, relax that sort of thing.
1:03:27
So I'm doing I'm kind of doing less, to be honest, I'm chilling
1:03:30
out, relaxing, but Monday to Thursday seeing boys and men in therapy one
1:03:35
to one, supervising people. And the one thing that I am in the
1:03:39
early stages of working on is creating a very short video with a filmmaker ten
1:03:47
minutes probably not even that long, which will address male friendly ways of working
1:03:52
with boys and men. So simply put, it will be a short video
1:03:54
where it might be me. I don't know, but you'll have the therapist
1:03:58
and a man or a young boy having a therapy session and it's all the
1:04:01
traditional therapeutic responses and then the video rewinds and it starts again, but the
1:04:06
therapist responds in more male friendly ways, and it's kind of looking at the
1:04:12
difference. And so I'm working on that with script is being created. That's
1:04:16
that's something that's in the pipeline, but that's that's a few months away yet.
1:04:21
We're still working on the scripts and that's what we a that's what we're
1:04:25
doing at the moment. Yeah, well, when you get that done,
1:04:28
send it to us and we'll share it and share it on all our media
1:04:31
too, because that sounds like it'll be a lot of fun and really interesting
1:04:34
to look at. Um. Okay, So I feel like there was one
1:04:40
other thing that I am failing to remember. Let me just look at this
1:04:45
book again. I think no, I think this is good. Is there
1:04:48
any final thoughts or anything that you want to share something I didn't ask or
1:04:54
that you wanted to mention. So one of the chapters of the book,
1:04:57
I'm just having a look in my copy acts. I can never remember I've
1:05:00
looked at this book so many times I'm sick of looking at it. So
1:05:04
I would say that the chapter chapter ten of the book, Nurture, Environment
1:05:12
and Sexual Abuse Mails, I think that that there's something in there for everyone,
1:05:15
because it doesn't just look at the disadvantages facing sexually abused boys and how
1:05:20
society treats them. It kind of touches also upon miss Andrew and the disadvantages
1:05:28
and how boys and men are hated, how they're treated, you know that
1:05:30
sort of thing. So I kind of highlight it in relation to, well,
1:05:34
if boys and men are being told this, then how sexually abused boys
1:05:39
and men going to feel? What are they going to think? And all
1:05:41
of that sort of stuff. So it's a it's a sort of chapter on
1:05:45
how those issues affect boys and men who have been abused. But you can
1:05:46
also read it as, if you like, as a standalone chapter as,
1:05:49
oh my god, these are all the disadvantages boys and men face. These
1:05:53
are these this is how society, government and the media treats boys and men.
1:05:58
And so that on its own could be some thing whether you're into sexual
1:06:00
use or no. No, very cool, very yeah. I mean we
1:06:03
all have to like have our own approaches, and then hopefully everybody you know,
1:06:09
coming from different positions, we come together and we're all moving towards the
1:06:13
same place. We're just coming at it from different starting points. So yeah,
1:06:16
all right, so we're gonna close it out here. I don't have
1:06:19
any more super chats or super chows. I want to thank you guys for
1:06:25
coming on the show. I want to thank you mister Mitchell for joining us
1:06:28
despite all of our technical goofs in the beginning. But we'll have this figured
1:06:31
out by next week, but this stream will stay up. So thank you
1:06:36
so much for coming on and telling us about your book one last time.
1:06:41
That book is The Sexual Abuse of Boys and Men, Creating an approach for
1:06:45
neglected victims. It's about well thirteen pounds twelve ninety nine. I don't know
1:06:49
like how much that is in American dollars, but I think that in Amazon
1:06:54
it probably translates just fine. But yeah, so about thirteen pounds looks like
1:06:59
it would be very useful. Definitely check it out, and we're gonna wrap
1:07:02
it up. So if you guys liked this video, please hit like subscribe.
1:07:05
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1:07:09
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1:07:11
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1:07:15
Thank you guys so much for coming on today's episode of Fireside Chat. Thank
1:07:17
you to our guest, and we will talk to you all in the next
1:07:19
video. Thank you,