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Revealing Hidden Narratives: Unpacking 'Precession' Documentary · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: My name is David Keck and this is Surviving Abuse Podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You took what I thought I could never get back.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I'll clean up until the end.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I'll roll down just to begin again.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I'll never be any longer.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: I'm back.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I came a good kiss in the back.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Goodbye, Now I'm back and I'll pray for you.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I'm done hurting.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I'll do the hangar for you when I get older.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Then we begin again.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Now I'm back and I'll pray for you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I'm done hurting.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Hello Keanna.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Hello David.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: You don't get enough of me, monday through Friday.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: So now here we are.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I know, always together.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: So, with that being said, why don't you tell us what we are talking about?
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to go ahead and state that I'm mad, okay you're mad.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: You have every reason to be mad when we talk about what we're getting ready to talk about.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Alright so what we are talking about today is there is a documentary on Netflix called Precession.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I don't think I've been inside this church in more than 30 years.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: We look at the windows.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: You can never think something bad might happen.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Here we're trying to walk through each other's memories and the things that haunt us the most.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Each survivor is writing their own script.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: I'm a New York City contractor.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I can chew the balls of a union electrician, but I can't talk about what happened to you when I'm 13.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I have so much anger and hatred I can't even put into words.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: We have over 230 priests that we know that have been sexually abusive in this era.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Catholic Church.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I tell you mother we're sorry.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: You tell my mother you're sorry because she still believes in you.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: In my mind it's like they're not going to win, and that's how I cope with it.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Do I have concerns?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have concerns being re-traumatized.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: If it's too painful we shouldn't do it.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I need to conquer these fears.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Dude, you did something that is so hard for me to do.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: This is a vehicle to help other guys.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I'm here for you.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: You chose to live and to love and, in return, you chose to be loved.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: This is not like a normal documentary.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: So a lot of documentaries will take you from start to finish on what happened to an individual.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: You know that sort of thing that is not necessarily this.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: These are a group of men who were abused in the Catholic Church, and what we are actually following is basically their way of confronting that past.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: So there is something called drama therapy, which I would have never in a million years thought about, and that's basically what happens in this documentary.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Is these individuals?
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: They're going to confront their past, using drama To basically replay the events that happened to them.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't know this existed either.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: So when this trauma therapist was on the documentary and was talking about drama therapy, I was like what the hell is that?
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for seven years and I'm really interested about it.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because it's so interesting when you watch them have that moment where they feel some relief.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Is the trauma still there?
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it doesn't go away.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: But it's like they are taking the power back in these re-enactments and I find that incredibly powerful.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say that I have probably watched this documentary fully two times, no exaggeration.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: It probably took me six times, six tries, to actually watch it.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: This one triggered me in a lot of ways, but what I did appreciate, and especially with that drama therapy, is it was really about these raw emotions, and we get to see a lot of that.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: I think the oldest one was 62 and he was in tears the whole time.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's get started with the opening scene.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: The opening scene of this is I mean, it totally caught me off guard.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: It's literally a press conference that has happened.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So picture this.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: You have Rebecca Randalls who is the attorney for these individuals.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: You have a gentleman by the name of Michael Sandridge, tom Viviano and Mike Foreman.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: They all have a piece to say.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: So Tom Viviano is the gentleman that you were talking about.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: That was 62 years old.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: He basically, in this press conference, he says that I'm 62 years old and this is still affecting me.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Still to this day.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: To this day and he is like broken down into tears.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Then you have Mike Foreman, who is I will say he's the person who probably impacted me the most, but probably not everyone will have that reaction to him.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: He is just absolutely full of anger.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: The vitriol that this man spews is on a whole other level.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: The amount of disdain that he has for the Catholic Church is absolutely unreal and it is absolutely justified.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: My man is like he has nothing good to say whatsoever.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: And then you have Michael Sandridge, who is to me.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: It seems like for him, the way that this has affected him is to make him a little bit withdrawn.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Like to me.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: He's kind of the silent pillar of strength in this whole documentary, like he's there for the other guys.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: There's at one point something that he's asked to do.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: That's hard for him but he's willing to do it because part of his healing is to help them get through their healing.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciated that they were all going through a different emotion, you know, based on the same trauma, and we got to see all those different emotions and people sometimes forget that we do get angry.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: It's not that we're just sitting around feeling sorry for ourselves all the time.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: There are times that we're scared, there are times that we're mad, there are times that all we can do is cry, there are times that we get depressed, and I felt like we got to experience all that with these men.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: All of them process things just a bit differently, and that's how this thing opens up.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: It opens up with those gentlemen and Rebecca Randalls, who is the actual attorney.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Now, all of this took place in the Kansas City St Louis area.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: So there is a gentleman who later will meet in the documentary.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: He was not necessarily from that area.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: He was originally from Cheyenne Wyoming, but they brought him in as well.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: So that's your basic setup.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Then we move to the next scene, and this is what tricked me out about this documentary.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: At first I was like what the hell am I actually?
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: watching right, we just went from this press conference that was really like this happened, Like this was a real press conference To this next scene of some man and I didn't catch it at first, but it's actually the Tom Viviano character, right?
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: The not well, I shouldn't call him a character.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: He's a man, he's somebody who has been sexually assaulted as a child, sexually abused as a child.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: But it's his voice, but I didn't catch it at first and what you hear in the scene is some man saying what do you ask of the church?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Parents say baptism, and then he goes on to ask these godparents, will you help raise this child in the faith of the church?
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: So basically, what you're watching is a baptism and I'm like how did we go from here to here?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: So basically, what they've done is they went from this real thing and just put you right into one of the scenes that they were shooting.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: But you don't know that at first, which is kind of because I was like wait a minute?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Did I flash to something else?
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Like what is happening?
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Well, it took me a minute to realize how they're filming this documentary, and I've never seen one filmed this way before, because you had the press conference and then you had this that I don't want to give too much away on because I'm not about to get there, but at one point I was like did I pick a movie, another documentary?
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking, and so, by the way, my husband was watching this with me and he was like this is supposed to be a documentary.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be entertained.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I want to know the truth.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: We were like what is happening here?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And then it goes from that scene and then you hear Mike, the one that I was telling you that was, you know, been on the angry side he's like let's get the fuck out of here.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Like he's, just like, like he is.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: And it floored me.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: When I heard that, I was like, oh, I'm not expecting this.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: I was not like I thought it was brilliantly done.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Once I figured out what they were doing, I was like, holy shit, I love this.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: And this is the thing that kind of stuck with me from the beginning to the end.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: It's this paragraph that Tom basically says.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: It says I claim you for Christ.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, a God, the giver of all life, human and divine, bless the parents of this child.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Now, that's typical stuff that is said about a baptism, but you hear that and you think about what these men have went through right.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: So you are claiming these kids for Christ, for the church, and this is what happens in the church.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Like that, just like every time, like I would move on to another scene, I would keep on seeing flashbacks of that and that being read out loud to like man, like this is supposed to be something that's holy, and how fucked up is it that these disgusting things are happening in a church?
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Well, and I might be backtracking a little bit, but one thing that really got my attention and I questioned it and then throughout the show I kind of forgot about it.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: But then at the end, when everything was kind of coming together, I thought about it again and it made sense.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: But you know, in this opening scene it has them walking down the aisle to the pew when this baptism is taking place, and nothing scares me more than those ooze and auls and that vocal tone.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: I guess they were wanting to make it a little bit sinister Because of the topic.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: The only thing that kept me together with this Is that it wasn't children singing it, because if it was kids I would have been done, I wouldn't have been able to do that, like it was just so terrifying to me.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: But then, like, this little boy is up at the pew.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: And he drops an urn of ice drinks.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And he takes off running, you know, and he kind of runs upstairs and all of a sudden at one time Everyone turns around and just stares at him.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: That's when I started thinking, is this a movie?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: And then I caught onto it not being, because the next scene, you know, kind of helped me realize what it is.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: So let's can we take a minute and explain, like, how this documentary was filmed, so they'll know when we're going through.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Like the movie part Quote unquote versus the documentary part.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: So basically, what happened was Apparently once the press conference happened.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Rebecca Randalls was contacted and they wanted to do something.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Right, they didn't know what something was, they just knew that they wanted to do something.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: They knew they wanted to do some type of documentary.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: They just didn't know exactly what type of documentary it would be.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: It would be one that followed someone's story from beginning to end, or what exactly would happen.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Well, rebecca, like she is so protective and so kind to these individuals, my girl is out here doing the work.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Do you hear me?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: She is out here with a whole garage full of boxes and she's telling folks these are boxes these are people's lives.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Like she is doing the work.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I'm a firm believer in letting the women do the work, because they're going to get the ship done quick and right the first time.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Has tried every child sex abuse case In the Kansas City area except for one.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: So this is kind of her bread and butter, this is what is on her heart to do.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Like she's like no, like you're not getting ready to be out here abusing kids, like I'm on it.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Like she's like, come at me, bro, like we're just not going to do it.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: So I'm sure they were comfortable with her because she was a woman Like I mean, when you see them in this documentary, like they all love on her.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like she is definitely kind to them and does whatever she can in whatever way she can for them.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: But another thing that I thought was really interesting Is, throughout the show you see these relationships build and every single one of these guys are saying you know, when they're reading on their story they're back to being that little boy.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And when you see when they say that and you see the relationship between her and these guys, you can tell that it's very motherly.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: She did have that mother instinct.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: She was able to help manage and control that inner child, that beaten inner child inside them with a little bit of love and I thought that was really cool.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Now that could be me over analyzing the show, because you're not beating with a stick, but that's what I took from it.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: But no, I didn't think you were right.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: So to get back to where we were, so when they knew they were going to do this documentary, they didn't know exactly what they were going to do and so when they came to Rebecca, rebecca said you know what?
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: She asked the important questions Should we do this?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: And if we do this, how do we do it safely?
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: The first question is, should we even do it?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: And so she thought, you know, and I think in her mind she thought, you know, I don't want to do anything that's unsafe, but at the same time it could help those little boys who can't stand up for themselves, right, like it could put a spotlight on the issues in the Catholic Church.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: So what she thought was that well, let's take a look At those individuals who had already been in the spotlight A little bit, who have already been in press conferences and in the media, who have already shared their story publicly.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: She didn't want to go, and I think this was just so kind of her, like I don't want to oust someone who is not willing To share their story, I don't want to, basically, you know, spin the wheel On someone who agrees to do it, but then we find out later that this is just way too traumatic Because they've never done anything or been in the spotlight or, you know, talked about it publicly.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I really respected that too, because one thing that is very common with victims Through all forms of trauma Is we feel like we've lost that sense of control.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: And so you have these producers and these people that are, of course, going to be thinking I'm going to make good TV.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: You know, this is money, it's going to be pocket money, unless I make it good and make a profit.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: But I don't think that, even with that being in their mind which I don't hate them for there was still that respect of If we find someone that just cannot handle this, we get them the right treatment that we need and we let them go take care of and even some of that the people that we will meet About the show that the producers were bringing on To make sure that these victims, who are now relieving their tragedies, are getting the therapy and the care and taking time For the self care that they need.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: I thought it was brilliantly done.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I have such a respect for Robert Green.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Then we go from her and then we cut to the next thing and what you see are basically them bringing in those individuals that we're going to meet and they're kind of saying a bit or two.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So you have Ed, tom, dan, ed, michael, mike and Joe, mike, michael and Tom.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: We met at the very beginning of this war deal.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So you have Ed, and Ed is a gentleman who I think he probably I think a lot of victims of Childhood tragedies will probably relate to him.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So what he basically opens up and says to everyone Is like look, I can't risk not being believed.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: That's the first thing, right, because so often in cases, especially with men and childhood abuse, they're not believed.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: The second thing he basically kind of hinted on he was like I can't have people thinking that I'm trying to exploit my situation for money, like that's not what this is about.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: This has been pitched to me.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I feel like some good can come from this.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And then the other one is he was like I can't have people thinking that I'm this weak for a man.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: He was like, because that's not what I am.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: He was like I'm a contractor in New York, like I can go toe to toe with anybody.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: He said that this particular situation he was like it's going to bring up a whole lot of stuff, and of course I'm paraphrasing here and he was like I don't want to be seen as the man in the corner you know broke down crying Like because that's not who I am.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: And I get that.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: But that also broke my heart because it shows how we all get molded and trained into thinking that If you see a tear it's a sign of weakness.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Like these men have made something of themselves.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: They have fought for years for their sanity.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: That is strength and if they want to f**k it cry, I'll cry with you.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: And they should be able to.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Like there shouldn't be that stigma.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: But in his mind he's like I don't want to be seen as anything that I'm not.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: He's like I'm a man and by golly, you know, don't shoot this documentary If you're just going to portray me as something that I'm not.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And that was what his point was.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, he should be able to cry, he should be able to have those emotions and not be judged, but unfortunately that's the world that we live in, and so his mind is he was like I know he didn't say it, but I'm sure in his mind he's thinking you know, so many times with these Hollywood films they over glorify certain aspects of people's lives, like oh, and they make it almost into a stereotype.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So in his mind he was like okay, I'm doing this, I'm trusting you guys, but look, don't be over here trying to make me seem like I'm this sobbing, weak man who can't get through the day.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Like I work, I'm successful, I'm married Like.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: That's not how I want you to portray me.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was beautifully said and handled and I think that and again, even like I'm such a fan of Robert Green now, I think that he gave the victims such respect and I just again, I like how this was done.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: So then we move on and then we meet Dan Lorraine.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: So Dan is was the interesting one to me.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: So then he actually worked in commercial films, Like local commercial films.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: So what you see him a lot of times throughout this thing Is he's actually scouting locations for this documentary, like that's what he's doing, and at one point he even says that he was really going ho about it.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: And then he started coming to all these churches and then he's like ooh, like it's like trudging up some stuff for him, like, and he's probably the easiest going one of the bunch.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So his story was that he both he and his brother were abused and he basically says he wants something.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: You know, part of what he wants to come from this is something that connection with his brother, like he feels like something is broken in that relationship Because he doesn't.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: He feels like his brother is blaming himself, but he doesn't want his brother to blame him Because, you know, blame himself, because it wasn't his fault, right, and so he is an interesting person Like I just feel like he's.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So he's the person who you don't know that something's going on with, right.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You see him and you think that he's just going on about everyday life.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: And you would never guess in a million years that this thing had happened to him.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: It seemed like he was able to find that light switch that we had on off button that he's able to turn off this part of him to go out into the day to do what he's got to do.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And sometimes that's healthy.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's nice to leave things at the door, you know, Right, as long as you are allowed yourself to visit those places.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: But I will say several times throughout, and he was one of the ones Like when he walked into the church and all those feelings were coming back.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: He was.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: That was the second time that I felt this.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: The first time we had touched on it in the beginning, when one of the ladies I'm horrible at names, you all know that, I know.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: But when one of the ladies was talking about you know she didn't want to do anything that was going to put anyone in harm and to keep everyone safe.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: When she said the word safe, chills ran through me.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And then him going into this church and the emotions that he had was another set of chills.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And what I realize is that I forget where.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: A I'm not Catholic.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: B I have a great relationship with God, but I'm not involved in a church.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So I forget about the religious politics of things and what they kept reminding me, accidentally, was the power that especially the Catholic Church has.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, like the, I think there's and we'll talk about it a little bit later Even a scene where there's all this ritualism and that's part of what the one of the individuals wants to embed into his scene Is just the power of the symbols and things of that nature.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's part of even the opening scene with the incense burner right, like you see that, and it just, I mean, look, I'm not even Catholic, and it just there's this image of holy right Because of all the symbolism of everything that is done in the Catholic Church and so, and again it goes back to what we were saying earlier the thought that this is supposed to be something that's so holy.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: But there are some individuals I don't want to say the entire Catholic Church, I don't want to say that but there are certain individuals within that organization that are using those symbols, you know, for power over someone else, to abuse someone else.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the things that I have highlighted here in my notes, because I don't follow a lot of organized religion.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I am terrified of organized religion, and so I sometimes forget, and I wanted to, especially with this documentary.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I wanted to educate myself on what they were meaning by things, because when I hear the word ritual and it's probably because of the movies I watch oh, come on, what a cult Right.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Right, it's because of the documentaries I watch.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: You know, I think of these horrible, mean cults out like Right out here in Utah.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: You know, you've got this one man who's got a million girls out here, you know, and so, but here's.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: So this is what I would implore you.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I mean I kind of think of it that way too.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: When you think of ritual, you think of all these spooky things.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: But a ritual can really be anything, right?
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So, for example, my daily ritual is I get up early in the morning, I take a shower, I go to the gym and my ritual, before I ever even get started doing anything, is to touch my toes, stretch my back.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: That's a ritual.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: That's a daily ritual.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: So a ritual can have.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't necessarily have to be what we think about, what we think about with these people out here, who these cults and things of that nature, Right?
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: well, I had Googled a couple of things because I didn't want to take a chance on offending anybody in it and, of course, I want to be educated about the topics that I'm talking about.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I want to misspeak a lot.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I want to say things where people want to email me and be like David, what the hell are you talking about?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Sit down, you know.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: But when I heard that word I was like so you know?
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Like I Googled and it was talking about the purpose of a religious community and, to simplify, it says no matter the actual tenants of belief, a religious community is broken.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: People gather together and intact in some ritual and it said that they become a tiny bit more whole and regain a little bit more power over their trauma that they have been stripped away from.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: However, a lot of these religious communities withhold a healing instead of offering the healing Girl that is powerful wow.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And that.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And then the last line of it says people are hurt in unimaginable ways with these religious communities.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: And I've said on the podcast before and I know I say things the humorists sent sometimes, but there's sometimes there's truth behind the joke and I mean this.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I can't even apologize for it, but when someone tells me that they are a Christian, that is what I fear the most, because I associate it with that organized.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: I don't really know what the Bible means.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to pretend I do.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not really going to do my homework, but then I'm going to judge everybody because I'm riding the coattails of Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Now and here and since we're on that topic, and I think I have said this to you before because I mean I used to I mean you would have known me a few years ago I went to church religiously, like I mean every Sunday.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: You couldn't, I was going to be in church.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I was lucky that I was in an organization that I did not feel like I was being manipulated or abused as a matter of fact, that's what you used to say I could be telling y'all anything.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Read your Bible like he would, literally like he would harp on it all the time.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: He was like I could be up here in this pulpit just talking any, just any old thing to you.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I could be up here to swindle you.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: You're not going to know if you don't read your Bible like you need to read, because or maybe he was like, and I'm not perfect, maybe I misinterpret something.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's a conversation that we need to have, and I think that's a healthy relationship to have with a pastor, someone who says that, no, let's talk about this.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Not everything I say is, yes, I hopefully I'm anointed by you, know, by Lord Christ, jesus, god, you know, whatever.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Hopefully that's the case.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: He said, but I'm imperfect, maybe I heard it wrong, maybe what I thought I was seeing maybe that wasn't the case.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I need to be corrected sometimes too, and so I was really lucky to to have a pastor who was like that.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: But I have heard horror stories.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I have seen I mean I won't say that I've ever been a member of a of a congregation in which was obviously a phony, you know congregation that shouldn't have been in an organization period, but I have attended a service of one that I, when I left that I was just like something is not right there.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to be clear that if I had to put a title to my religious beliefs, it would be a Christian.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not knocking it by any means.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: The fear, but when I hear that word, is what people are believing that the Bible says, when sometimes it just doesn't.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: People say that the Bible contradicts itself and I don't think that's the case.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I think the Bible and it was brilliantly said to me in one of the episodes in season one when I had a southern Baptist preacher on there.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: He was like the Bible doesn't contradicts itself.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It's having a conversation with itself.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: And and one little story that I want to share, and then we can get back to it.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: But one of the last times I was in church was I went to visit a church with my cousins and they had talked about how great their church is and you know, everyone's just loving and you know, just go in and be yourself and you'll be fine.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: You know, don't, don't your church, you're welcome, right.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: So I walk in and it's a southern Baptist church and of course you know they all want to stand at the door and shake your hand as you walk in and speak to you.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And I'm naturally a flamboyant guy, I dress loud, I you know you can sometimes tell, and just conversation with me you know that I'm openly gay and I noticed this one man was looking at me really hard and he was an older guy.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So the preacher gets up, does the the morning prayer and asks if anyone has a song they want to share.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: And he was like, oh, I do.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And goes up and he says I'm wanting to pray for the homosexuals out there that think that their lifestyle is an alternate lifestyle.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: That's the worst thing.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You never call it it's not an alternate and sings amazing grace, which.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: That song has nothing to do about being gay and a damnation.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: So I was like how would that song come?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: out.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I know it's about having a great for the little baby.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I can't.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: So I everyone was studying down.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: He was singing acapella, but I stood up, I looked him dead in the eye.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Of course there was a lot of separation because he was up and I made sure that he seen me and I walked out the door and that, other than a funeral and a wedding, is the last one I've been in.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Like that is not that's.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's what God wants.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: No, I mean well and, and I think that we will get a little like once we talk about my boy, mike, he kind of feels the same way.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: He's like.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: What does God think about some of these things?
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: you know Well, and that's one of the questions that I have, or one of the notes I have is several times about the, the documentary.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: He was like what would Jesus and God think about this?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Like what would their real thoughts be about this?
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And hearing him say it, so, because we've all heard someone say ask that question, there was something about the way that he said it and it just makes me gag and not in the good gag.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: It breaks me.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Right, like he.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Like I said he was, of all the gentlemen, he's the one who impacted me most.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: You would not he may not be the one for everyone, just because of he's such a hard place in which he is is just so full of anger.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: So some other people may have a different reaction to him and I can understand that, I totally can, but for him he was the one that broke me, like he was the one who, of all the and I think it may be because most of the time when you see these documentaries, it kind of is like what, what Ed was saying earlier when he was saying I can't be seen as this person who balled up in a court crying that kind of thing so many times with these documentary that's, you know, or reenactments, I should say they portray somebody that way, and so that's what we're used to seeing right now.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: We may see some anger, but not to the extent of this, like this man's blood is boiling all day long.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: He wakes up at 10.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Right every morning yeah like, and it scares me like he's gonna have a heart attack, you know.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Like it's, yet he's the one who and he gets me every time.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: so I think that you're really good at analyzing people and when you and I and reading people, and when you and I were talking before we started and you were mentioning Ed and how you were drawn to him and you made a comment that really stuck out to me and I think that you were able to see that his anger isn't for anyone to take personally, but we put so many people in his life probably is Right when his anger is trying to be placed somewhere that he doesn't have access to place it Right.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: yeah, mike, you mean yes.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm sorry, I think it's an Ed, but Mike yes absolutely so.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: You have Mike and he gives his, you know his speech.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: And again, like it's to the point where one of the gentlemen at one point makes the comment like you could, like you should do voiceovers, like it's just that sinister.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his voice, like he has a great like, like somebody really should hire him to do voiceovers for, like, halloween movies, like legit, like yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: And then you move on.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: And then they introduce Monica Finney, who is the dramatic therapist, like she's the person who's kind of overseeing all of this, which again thought was brilliant that they actually took the time to basically bring somebody in.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Now she mentions what she thinks trauma is or how she pictures trauma.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: She basically states that trauma is something that's sticky and so that stickiness you know, this thing that happens to you, it's got you stuck like it's sticky, like it won't let you pull from it, and so what the drama therapy does is it allows the person who's experienced this to just put out whatever it is on the inside and into the world in whatever way makes sense.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So that's what the drama therapy is.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: It could be something that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but if that's what feels right to you, then that's what you do right and I just thought that is just in so many ways is just brilliant.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: While what these individuals do, it will make clear sense.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Like they, there's logic to it, like they are basically reliving and facing those fears.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Just the thought that it doesn't have to be that organized, like it's.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: If you want to, you know, lay in, yell and kick and scream in the middle of the floor.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: If that's what makes sense to you to put it out in the world, that's okay.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Like the fact that there doesn't have to be any boundaries.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: There's no one telling you or controlling how you decide to put it out into the world.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: As long as you don't bring physical harm to somebody else, let's not traumatize someone else during this recovery.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Unless that's her plan to her job stability and to make money.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I mean times are hard, I mean we still trying to recover from COVID.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I'm really I'm gonna hook this up.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Do you think that we are?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: I keep waiting and I don't know if I can wait any longer, because I need to.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I need to laugh for a minute.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Do you think that it's time for us to bring up Sasha Sanders?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Let's bring up Sasha I as soon as the camera came into the room and she was sitting there with all of her tattoos and that Janice Stoplin hair and that lipstick.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: My girl and the red lipstick.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Not a bit of it on her tooth like it doesn't come off.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I still can't figure out how the hell she made that happen.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I can put on some like I can do all the primer and all the stuff in the world so that it won't come off.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: It'll be all over my teeth, right now I love this girl and so, like she reminded me of like a Janice Stoplin as soon as I seen her, I was like if I walked into a dinner party I would want to sit right beside her.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: I know she's drinking Scotch, neat, and has a shit ton of stories in his laugh at the party.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I'm sure she is.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: But I will say you know, as much as Rebecca loves on these guys like Sasha, like not, that is they, that is they girl.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can tell she's right or die.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean she's like she, she is they girl.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: And when I tell you, like just the love, when every, every time that they are around her they're like hugging on her, kissing on her, like this is like I don't know what it is, but whatever it is like they feel like that is their support, like she is their support.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: And for her to you know how you can see someone and just be drawn to them.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I don't really get that on TV a lot, you know there's a lot of stuff in the way and but the minute I saw her I was drawn to her.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I was like I want to know more about this thing.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I know, and then we don't get that much more we don't.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: We don't get much, and so I've created this whole story in my head of her and her life, and I love her.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Like I, she wakes up in the middle of the night and reapplies that damn much.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I was going to say with her body ink, which was beautifully done.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I was like maybe they're tattooed on, but she no one has ever seen her without that red lipstick.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: You're right, you damn right, they have it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: It ain't matter for it.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Right, like my girl out here, but I think it was mentioned that she had also been with in litigation with all of these individuals at some point.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: So she is just, I don't know that girl.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: There has to be a documentary about her maid.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's not one yet, but there needs to be because there's just she's got stories.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: She's got tons of stories and we need to know them all If we could work on getting her a guest and be like, look, we don't really know much about you we're just going to say, hey, listen to you talk, that's right.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Just tell us all the things and what lives to be a better life.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: How are you keeping it on?
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: There was one time that I lost my shed.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I had to pause it and laugh because and I'm sure we'll we'll touch more in detail on the actual experience or situation around this experience, but, michael, and it was.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Dan, which scene are you talking about?
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: The confession it's Dan and Michael.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: yes, dan and Michael, yes so.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Michael goes into the confession room.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: He wanted to go in there and just because they're back into the church, and so Dan comes up the camera and he said there's no way, I can't do this.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: And he just puts his hand up against the door and puts all of his weight in it and then you hear Michael, by how little I say and do not do that.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And it was so like there was a couple that got me with him.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Baby, let me see.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: There was the scene with him in this dog, first of all.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of dog this is, oh my God.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: And so he makes the comment that sometimes people state that they sometimes start to look like they're animals.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Baby, yes, you do.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: You look exactly like that.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I know, I know it's like the camera comes in and I was like, oh shit.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's okay because he's like, if I look like that dog, like I want to look like that dog, cody, and I made sure that we adopted gorgeous dogs.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that, and there was the other scene too.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: There was another scene with him too.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: That just made me oh man he was talking.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: They were just walked into a church and they were looking at these pillars.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: He was like they were beautiful.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I want to do it.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: They are beautiful, but I wouldn't have done it.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: I ought to do it Like I'm going to tear your neck right now.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: That's not how I would have done that.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I know we're going to go totally up top, but I just love Sasha and I really like Michael.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to talk about them for a minute.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Alright.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: So we now cut to a scene where we have got Mr Michael, who we were just talking about, trying on robes in the church and he goes through.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: So basically he starts talking about how everything is symbol.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: You know, like there's so much symbolism within the church, but at the same time you can kind of see that he's just very like, kind of cringed by trying on this stuff because you know they're basically they're going to come up and, you know, write their own scripts and things of that nature, and so he basically it's wardrobe, so that's why he's trying this stuff on, and you can just tell that he's just beside himself about having to even put this stuff on.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Then we flash to Ed, who basically talks about how his former self is just some kid that he used to know but he has no connection to.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Like I thought that was incredibly sad.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Like he's just like there's this kid, like this thing happened to him, but because he, in order to cope, he basically has cut himself off from his former self like that kid in order, because I'm sure and this is me, I mean I don't mean to speak for him, but if it were me, I could see myself not wanting to know that child, right, that child was powerless to do anything, and so you know, I just I don't know, that's something like that hit me, yeah, and he made the comment too.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: That was really a punch then got.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: He said all these people around me get to talk about their childhood and what it was like when they were 13, and I can't.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: I mean it's just so sad, the things that they were robbed of and still, to this day, being robbed of.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely like it's just.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: It's so incredibly sad and I just and to think that this has happened to you know.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: When we get to the part of the numbers, holy shit.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, like it's just.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: It's just insane to me.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: So, after we have Ed say his bit about how this kid is someone he used to know, we then kind of flashed to Dan and Dan is now scouting for location.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: He talks about the fact that you know each of them are going to script scenes based on their experiences and so and this is where we kind of get into what I was telling you about Dan- who was super excited at first, but then, as he's scouting these locations, he's becoming more and more and more uneasy about the situation.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: So basically, I mean I think we get some written vermin at some point.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: They basically talks about Dan's abuser I think his name was Hugh Monahan who, led Missouri has been avoiding services, uncle Zuri, but also takes more time to guide where he looks in the camera.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: So isn't legally enough.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: But then again sort of like theundred and ninety.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: As soon as we save him, my life just will get.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: But this man is literally out there doing God knows what to whom, and if I'm getting ahead, let me know.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: but is this when I start talking about the status limitation?
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: So that's the very next scene.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: So this is when we get into Mike, my boy Mike, mr, I'm mad at everybody, so my man, this cracked me up so bad like I know I do not mean like these guys understand, I am not laughing at this.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Man's absolutely justified to be angry.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: But Mike is out here by himself in front of the Catholic Church protesting.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: He's got two black signs up One that goes into this whole.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: So basically I'm gonna get ready to read y'all what it says.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: It says it is an absolute poverty.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: The statute of limitations is the crown jewel of the Catholic Church.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: What does God think about?
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: That is his first sign.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: His second sign says WWIamnotCatholiccom.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah for it.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: This is.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: It says read my story.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: This is a real thing too, by the way I actually went and googled it, like I had no choice, like I was like look, I had push pause.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: Is that a?
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: website.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: That's an actual website, like I got, like I had no choice, like I felt like if he went through the process of getting by himself.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I need to go out and look at this man's sword and look at this damn address.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: So so now he's out here protesting by himself and some lady comes and peeks her head out the door and says can I help you?
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: He's like no, I know what I'm doing like they end up.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: There is one guy who decides to come and stop to listen to his story.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: He thanks for that.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: So then we flashed to Mike and he's like, well, we're in a hell of this day, we're in the hell of these damn cops.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: When I was 11 years old, like you know- and you know, what's really sad too is that poor lady that popped her head out said can I help you?
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: You already know one of the priests called her and said can you go take care of the situation?
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Why is she?
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Getting omnated my mom.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Right, like out here, like my man is out here in the hell.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: And you know what Good for him.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I know like he's like he has no problem.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: He's like no, he's like I'm gonna get justice somehow Now, but I will tell you his is also.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: So we have Dan who's you?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: know abuser is still out here in this world doing God's know what, but Mike's abuser actually died, so there is no justice for him.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: And then because of, and so and let's back up a little bit the reason that he has such an advantage is that by the time he recovered his memories of what happened to him and tried to take him to have his day in court, they basically was thrown out due to the statute's limitations.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: So tell us about the statute's limitations with this case, like because they had talked about it a lot throughout and those stuff that I didn't even know and, honestly, at first I was like I think well, because it's a church like did.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: they have their own statute's limitations and Right so there's a couple different things so in certain states.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: So it's different from what I understand.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Now I could be wrong, but from what I understand it's different from state to state.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Like I mean, there are certain crimes that cannot be prosecuted after a certain amount of time.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: That's bullshit, it is bullshit, and so, especially when you think about abuse like, oh okay, so you're just gonna go rape a child and oh well, it's been 15 years now, no, and I haven't been caught, so I'm good to go like what the hell is that?
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: playing the factor, playing the favor to the bad guy Right, absolutely, because my attacker, his fingerprints, are all over my body to the day I die, so that there is no real justice with it, and I'm stuck with this forever, you know, and he can be like that's been 15 years.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I'm done, david Hoop.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Right, like this is like.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: This is just like the most bizarre thing ever that I've ever heard, you know?
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: I mean fine, if you want to have a statute's, a limitation for.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Don't come after me for a second.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: You got my soul 10 years ago, fine.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Okay but you're taking my innocence.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Why you're taking my security?
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: You're taking my faith right and every day.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: And so this man, every day he is suffering because there is no justice for him.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: He needs to receive justice from you know his attacker and finding the justice from the court system, and he damn sure didn't find it from the Catholic church because, let me tell you, he's gonna remind you a million times that they can't like.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: He is so like and let's back up a little bit.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: So he was abused when he was in fifth or sixth grade, but he is more upset with the Catholic church.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Then he actually is with his abuser.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: The reason why is because when he brings it up to them and he actually Replays the scene, like his part of his drama therapy was to Re-enact in the scene when he was, he went before this independent committee For the Catholic church.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: They wrote him a letter Basically told him that they cannot substantiate his credibility and let me tell you when I tell you
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: it set him off.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: It set him off like he's like how in the hell can you tell me that you can't substantiate my credibility, like I know what happened to me and he in, and I mean like when I tell you he is so Incredibly upset, he's more upset with the Catholic church, just simply because they well, he feels like they, like that he was like there's no doubt in my mind that when I left that review, but they knew that my story was true but they covered it up.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: So Dan's story and Mike's story are similar.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: So there's bits of pieces that they that crossover right from Dan and Mike and then there's a little bit that crosses over between Dan and Joe because they didn't Joe, they both were taken to places where there were lakes and so and then with Dan and Mike, they both had to go before this independent committee, tell their stories and Like to me, like it's, the whole situation to me is very intimidating.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: You think about, you've been abused like and while my boy, mike, was like hell, yeah, I want to go in front of these folks and I'm gonna tell my story.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: You know he had gotten to a point where he was so angry like he had to let it out, but not everybody gets to that point, right.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: And so here you are, the person who's been abused, telling this story and maybe you haven't told it to many people and you're in a room full of no four to eight individuals, like how I mean hell, I'm not been abused and that, to me, is intimidating.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like there's a couple of things I can relate to with that and you know it's.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: At one point I remember that I was more mad at the judicial system and and my community as a whole, more than I was my attacker.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: You know, I Understand exactly because I I've been hurt, I've been almost killed and I'm supposed to be able to go to you all and trust you on say you know, this person damaged me and you're supposed to help fix it and Didn't give a damn, and it is such a horrible, horrible, different kind of trauma when you End up finding out that Superman isn't really that great right, like it's just.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: It's incredible to me like this, like the amount of how frustrating in it be, you know, you know, does it have to be to know that you will never find justice?
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, our systems in some ways are, and I think you hit it earlier.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Is it helps the actual abuser, the guilty party, like?
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: that's to me is just well, and one thing that we had talked about before, because, you know, going back to you know we had just mentioned my walking.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: He walked into room with seven or eight people and and then they're like, okay, there's a platform to your story and you have to share everything.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Right then, right there, regardless of your Emotion or feelings behind it.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: And I kind of think of that with the victims impact statement.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I wrote the letter.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: I Wanted to get up and read it.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: It was my truth, it was a way for me to get back that control.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Then, when it was time to do it, I, for lack of better words, have chickened out.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: You know, because you have these people that you don't fucking know standing in front of you, wanting to hear your fears.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: I have this person that gave me these new fears and scars Breathing the same air as me, with his eyes and his family and friends eyes on me for me to expose, of how vulnerable I've been and how hurt I am, and which was also to me showing them a side of weakness, which is what he wanted, which would mean he won, and I chickened out and I said I mean I had an eight page later in my hand and I said you know what?
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I can't read this.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna read this.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: I want to focus on the good and I want this over and I turn around and sit down and then now I'm gonna healthy or place.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: I would love to have a call him up or sit in front of him in jail and read that fucking letter, but I can't.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Now I hate that.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: At one point One of the guys was asked the question Would you want to see these people again?
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: He said yeah.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I want them here right now.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: That's our boy Mike.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you yeah, I got one in here right now.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: And I got such a rush.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: And I heard that because if I got a phone call right now In the middle of recording with you on a Saturday night and they said, hey, we're gonna put your attack on the phone, read that letter, bitch, give me that letter and give me 15 minutes.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: You know, because I can do it now.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: But I couldn't then, and for them to put a time frame on it is disgusting to me.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: It is disgusting you know, and it's like when I called Nashville about the victims compensation because I started getting all these Do bill notices that the supposed to fall into the victims compensation and I called Nashville and I was like, why am I getting this?
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: It's for the victims impact.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: You know, if you all are supposed to be taking care of this, they said no, this was two years ago.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: You should be better.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: That's not how mental health works at all.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: That's not how you cannot put a time frame and say, okay, boo boo's are gone, the state kissed him away.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: That's not the way it fucking works.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Not, not with something like this.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: This is something that will be with you, or?
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: ever, and so the point of me mentioning that is that is exactly what they're saying with all.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: This, too, is how I took it.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: You know they're saying okay, you've got the floor, tick tock, let's go, you know, and then you're fixed, you're better, this is your band aid right, that's it, because we can't substantiate, as they told him, your claims and and so like.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: And when I tell you, so there's, so the individual who he puts a name to, so his name is archbishop Justive, not Norman.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: When I tell you like y'all, like if y'all go out to the WWW dot I am not Catholic dot com Like I'm telling you we're talking about, we're talking about a whole web pages, not even a web page, like I'm sure if you printed it out, and be like 40 pages long Of him just going in on the Catholic Church and do you hear me?
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: And he tells his story and he talks about archbishop at some point.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: I think he calls him a feel-threat, because again, at the end of the day, is absolutely justified, especially when you start listening to historian will get into historian a little bit, but he, but the letter that he gets from archbishop Joseph Norman, or for as he calls it's, I mean, can you imagine?
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: so?
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: You have been abused, you've been forced to tell your story in front of all these people.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You're thinking that maybe something will come out of this, but then you get a letter that basically states that we can't substantiate your credibility.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: And then it ends in this right here it says it is my sincerest prayer and hope, through God's abundant and unfailing grace, we're able to experience healing and peace in your life.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: My blood would boil too if someone basically just told me that they could not substantiate my credibility, basically calling me a liar, and then ended the letter with that and and that Control that this man has.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: There are several people.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: We could say that kind of shit too, and that church would have been blown up right.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: You know, like just just absolutely appalling.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: So so the mics, my situation blesses all heart and so, and in his case, was dismissed Like just completely dismissed.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Do do such for the limitations.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: And so he is still, like he's out here still hustling, trying to figure out how he gets justice.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Like I can do not, like he won't stop.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: He's not going to stop and I can't blame him because he feels like I mean.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Even at one point he states that he there is no doubt in his mind that he would be a different human being if that didn't happen, if he wasn't abused and I think that for Everybody that's been through this type of trauma, it makes you somebody else.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: It makes you somebody else.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: That's not fair.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: So then we flash forward and then we come to the cut of the garage that we were talking about earlier.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Y'all, when y'all see this garage, this is boxes upon boxes, upon boxes upon boxes and you're looking at this garage and you're like how in the hell is Anybody keeping anything straight in this garage?
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: This is my girl, rebecca.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: She looks, she's in it, she is doing the work.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: She's like look, these aren't just boxes, these are people's lives.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Do you hear me?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: That's how she feels about this she was like, like I'm looking at that and I'm like those little light boxes to me, but she is so In it, she is so like her work, like this is her heart's work.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: You can tell this is what she feels, like she was meant to do, like she doesn't see that I'm a stressor for her garage Because she's awesome.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Those people were like I need Bob Smith's box.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: She's got a back corner box of her career, like this bitch knows.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Like she knows, like this bitch absolutely knows, like if.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: I'm ever a children's attorney.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: I hope you got money to report for Rebecca.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: You're right, because this girl knows like this woman is in it.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: Let me, she wants a box of my life in her Garage, just to be safe, I'll give her one.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: So all right.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: So now we move from that scene and again some of this is a little because, you know, some of it is Partly them, showing you what is happening through the filming this, and so then we move on to a little snippet of something that basically talks about Joe.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: So Joe is probably more close to what you have seen portrayed in, you know, any reenactment of documentary of someone who's been traumatized.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: He is an amputee and he was actually abused by three priests and it actually names these individuals, so it's Thomas O'Brien, mark on heart and Thomas Reardon.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Right, I liked about Joe is that, even though he has went through this thing, he has made it his life purpose to work with children who have been abused, neglected, abandoned.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Like that is what he does, like he in some ways he is the superhero right, like he's the one who has taken the pain that he has and says you know what?
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: No more for any child that I can help, and that's what he does.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: And so what they start talking about with him is and what he's wanting to confront is the lake house in which he Was basically abused.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: He talks about how you know, for a while suddenly he just started having nightmares.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: But what he realizes now, and these nightmares were actually memories coming to surface, um and and that to me is like I can't even imagine.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Like you know, I I don't sleep well now.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Like, imagine that being your life, your night after night, you're literally having nightmares of your abuse.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I mean talk about living your nightmare, Absolutely and that's already happened, and now you're reliving it over and over again in your sleep in your sleep.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: So that shows that there's no safe place for these people.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: There's no safe, there's no.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: There's no safe place.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: There's no safe place, even in your, in your home and in your bed asleep right, I think.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Even at one point he talks about how sometimes his nightmares would even morph into something like he would be chased by like Cowboys and Indians.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Well, he says Indians, I'm gonna say Native Americans, and he's running toward the house and he's like, if I can get to this house, then I will be safe.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: But then he gets into the house and there are his abusers and really what happened is was it was all a setup to begin with.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: He was being chased by these feet, by these, this dangerous entity, we're gonna say.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: And it was really just to lure him to another unsafe place.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: And so I just thought to myself man, I that is so hard to live with like I just can't even imagine.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Later, what we see is that they actually find that house and take him and they take him to it.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: You know he can't go in, but you know he goes up to the porch and peeks in and you know what's he confronts it Like once he forces himself to go there to do it.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Nightmares go, you know I analyze things like crazy and half the time it's probably not even right.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: But I was thinking, you know, when you had the Cowboys and Indians, as he called them, chasing him into this house where you know there's more bad guys is to me it kind of represented at you know, his family and everybody's like you gotta go church, you gotta go church, you gotta go church.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: So he's being chased to this building where these abusers are and you know, and, and then you have now even you know the judicial systems, like that's like well, it's no longer a factor, or we don't believe you and you know, and so there's always these bad guys are chasing you right back to these bad guys, and that structure was a hole you know, where you would think that you were saved.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: That church is a Dwelling where you think that you'd be safe, and that's where this unimaginable acts are happening, happening, and it's just heartbreaking.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: It is heartbreaking and I'm glad you said that.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: So that actually kind of makes us into the next thing that actually happens right after all of this right.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: So Then we have Eddie and, and he's talking about how he wants his scene to be shot.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: And so he's talking about hands, like the symbolism of the hands, like how you know, there's so much that happens with hands in the Catholic Church and all these rituals that happen.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: And he says he wants to show, you know, these ritualistic things that are supposed to be holy, that are supposed to help Bring us closer to God.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: But then flashed you hands of you know the same priest or whatever, jerking down my pants, and he says is this right?
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: But this person who's doing this is the definition, the very definition.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Well, what right is supposed to be?
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: And he was like who can I check in with?
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: He was like I don't have anybody I can check in.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: He was like and this is the thing that caught me with him he said I've been checking in with God, or he says no, he says checking in with God wasn't working.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: He said I, he basically had no one that he could check with, like.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: That to me was just like Reggie, the fact that he thought like he was like.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Who do I go to?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Like this person is supposed to be the definition of all that's holy, all that's right.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't seem like this should be happening to me.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: It's like when you think of, like, the chain of command, it's like you have the priest and that's the person that helps you get into heaven, and this person is the act of the devil.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: It, just it.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: To me it would.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: That was just so like hope they had.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: All of them had their own quotes at some point here and there.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: That has just got wrenching, you know right, it just absolutely was.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: So then we flash forward to Michael, your boy, michael, our queen baby, and he basically talk about where his abuse took place.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: It took place in the swing, with father tyranny, and so basically, he takes him to this pool, he abuses him and then he basically, when he takes him home, he tells him nothing happened you know, this is just something that happens with special friends and priests and tells him that he can't say anything to his parents, like just sends him on home.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: And then when his mom questions, you know why is his eyes red, like he looked like he had been crying and he just, you know, basically told her oh this because we're going from the pool, because this, this person with this power that he's supposed to respect, right like you're supposed to do what they want you to do Told him that he couldn't say anything like, and you know, and again he's another person still waiting for his, his abuser, to be removed from priests, and still nothing like it.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Just to me, and I think the other sad part about his was, like you know, a lot of these individuals are going to locations to kind of come up that past, the kind of not put it behind them, but you know so they know that they have power over this location.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: The pool in which it happened was torn down.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: He can't confront it.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: I hope that.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: What one thing that I really liked about this documentary is they did not mind a bit to mention the bad people's names, mm-hmm.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: I love that and I hope that that is a sense of justice for these gentlemen, because they get to on their platform that they've created.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: Get to Call them out by name.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and, as I should be able to.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: You know it's.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: It's so frustrating sometimes when there's no justice for anyone and then it just gets swept under the table.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: Like there's not even anything that you know, you feel like you can do.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: At least this gives them some kind of power to say you know what?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna put this out there in the universe.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know when people hear about this, even if when it, even when it's someone that you're close to, you know it's it's kind of like when someone dies Usually have the three days and you're smothering the person that is closest to one that past, and so for those three days, the, the, the widow or whoever the case may be that's closest to is just so busy and so numb and so much going on that they're not really getting to mourn yet.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Well then, after those three days, everyone goes to work and that person goes to make two pots of coffee.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I only have to make one.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Now, you know, that's when the the dust is settling for everyone else, but that person the dust is far from settling, because they're now getting into that, what their new routine is going to be.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I don't have to make two cups coffee.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: Right, I want to, but you can't.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: But I can't, or you should, and right, and and so it's what I always try to remind people is and and this is from example with these guys is dust.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Don't settle for us on this.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: No, it's there forever.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you just find a way.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: Hopefully not all and not everyone, but hopefully you find a way to manage it.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: But it never goes away and and the one that you like so well, the one that's angry, and I love him too, but what scares me for him is there the.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: The amount of anger shows that he hasn't been able to Really move, for there's no sense of peace for himself.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: No, there's definitely not and, as a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought that up because, moving forward a little bit, ask a few things.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: One of the things that they cut to is my boy.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Mike is doing some like heavy rock and back and forth, like he's got like some heavy rock going on and he is just like rocking the hell out of himself back and forth like some stuff.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: That is not you guys like, is not normal.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: And I hate to say not normal because I don't want to Anyone who has been through what he has been through.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: They have to find ways to cope right.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: So I don't want to make it sound like you know, oh, he's, he's off his rocker.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: That's not I don't think that's what you're meaning by the word normal.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: It's not healthy.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: You know, you and I were touched on this in the beginning.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid this man's gonna have a heart attack and what really pisses me off about that is, if that happens, their fingerprints, the priests, are all over this man's dead body.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: They won, you know.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: He is now dead and they were.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: They were his killer, right, you know, which is where the peace and stuff comes in.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: Like that, forgiveness is not for the, it's for yourself, it's for the victim, you know, and he's not getting there and it's terrifying me for his health, right.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: So when you're saying a normal, I think like I'm understanding those.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: And it's not healthy, it's not good for him right, cuz I mean he is, I mean he is rocking back and forth.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: And so I think they asked him you know some point, like how long has he been doing this?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: Because, like when you, you guys, like when you go and watch the, the document, you'll see what I'm saying.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: And he basically said that this has been happening since that time, like he had no place to put you know all the things that have built up.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: And he basically tell you.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: He was like if I don't do this, I'm not right and you can tell this wasn't a documentary thing, it wasn't something that he started doing to you know, two hours in the filming you can tell this is something that he's been, that he's been doing for a long time, like his body.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: Just there's some kind of trigger in his body.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: No, just start that, just like he's got it.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: He's got to do it.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: He's got to do it, and if he doesn't do it, he's not right.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: He also talks about well, he talks about that, about his there, his therapist talking about that.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: This is his way of putting himself into a dissociative state.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just incredibly sad to watch.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: He even mentions at some point, like he mentions at one point, talking to his dad.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: He calls his dad by his name.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: He says to his dad has it never dawned on you that I've never had a single romantic relationship Like you?
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Just think about this.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: This man has went through his life Refusing to have or or maybe it's not that he's refused it, maybe that nobody has the mental capacity to really deal with him because I'm sure I don't raise a factor Right, because he's so angry he was like, and he tells you and we've said it before, like he's, he's convinced that it Just had not happened to him he would have children, he would have grandchildren, his life would be so much different.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: But because it happened, he can't get past it.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: And then, on top of the abuse, and he has to go through a Different type of abuse from the Catholic Church and basically Saying, not believing his story, right, and I think that's the thing that burns him the black, it's like burning deep into his soul that these people do not believe.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: But I am telling them, or they believe, or better, yet, as he says, they believe it, they know it's true, they just like to cover it up.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: They don't give a damn.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: And who else isn't happening to during this time that you're ignoring me and not caring?
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Right and and what scares me For the way that he's acting, and I'm hoping this documentary is Going to bring him some kind of peace and comfort.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: You know, especially like after, I think we find those moments and we see those moments with him where you know it's like okay, he just took a deep breath.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: Right, he's really we definitely see that like there's definitely a side to him that it's like like, yes, we see the vitriol, we see the anger, we see all of that, but there's definitely something, there's another side to him.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: And the reason that I bring that up is because In one of the scenes that we'll talk about, there's a line that he mentions where he says don't blame mom, and let's talk about mom Because mom look, he's a better person than I am is what I'm going to say, because he says don't blame mom, mom, mom, I'm sorry, I'm blaming mom.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: So his story was this, so he was once at a different, and now I will say they, they go into part of his story.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: They don't go into all the details, some of the details that I'm getting ready to tell you is actually from that.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: I am not Again.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: I show had to go and look at it I love that you know how to use the good machine.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: But so he was at it.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: He was in public school, basically from what I understand, and he loved it.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: He was.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: He played baseball, he played football, he was a happy child.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Then his mom started getting active in the church and then he transferred him into a catholic school Basically, and he said there was something about this place that he just did not like.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: From the time that he got there, start skipping school.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: That are the other and so someone had suggested to his mother that he should go seek therapy.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: I do therapy with priests, so his very.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: So that's the setup.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: So what they actually mentioned in the documentary Is that he you know, his mom drops him off to the, to the priest's therapist, and that's where he was abused.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: What happened was he was literally told he got there to lay on the floor and close his eyes and before this poor kid knew it, this priest was on top of him sexually assaulting him, trying to stick his tongue down his throat.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: Now, the documentary doesn't go into details.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: Website.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: He does Uh W W Dodd, exactly In case you missed that I am not catholiccom.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: I wonder if you had to fight for that name or if it was just open.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Do you think like, uh, uh, what is it?
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Go daddy called him and was like are you sure?
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: this is what.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: I know, like this is what you want.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: He was like yes, this is what I want.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Um and so, but you know he basically paints his picture of this.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: This priest stick trying to stick his tongue down his throat.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: He immediately closes off his mouth so he starts licking his face and like Salivating all over him the other.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: And then, when the priest was done, he goes and gets this pillow shaped like a ball and tells him to hit him with it.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: It'll help you with your anger, like it's very bizarre shit, like what the hell.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: And then he said again not all of this is in the documentary, but he says he remembers the pastor.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: I keep wanting to call him the pastor, but he's a priest in the fetal position, like you know, while he's asking him to hit him with this pillow, like like.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: It's just really, really, really bizarre.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: And then when he leaves, he tells kid, I'll tell your parents about this because they're not going to understand my therapy best.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: Well, bitch, no, nobody's going to understand your therapy message.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: You want to pin down a child?
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: So?
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: I want your opinion on this.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Some people will react differently to a sexual interaction, right.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: And so when this priest is in the fetal position saying hit me, beat me with this pillow, you know like some people will cry after sex and they feel a little bit of guilt, like what?
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: Where my mind kind of went was did something like this abuse happen to him?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: And he's reacting out.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Not that this justifies any of it at all.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: If you commit the crime, you do the time, as you know, but usually victims of sexual assault have also been sexually assaulted.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: And so I wondered if, where you know, some people cry or some people might cut themselves after or whatever they're going to say me, if, if he was like, okay, now take this pillow and I'm going to get into this weak, vulnerable state of curled up ball of emotional mass and you beat me, and if that is his way of punishing himself for doing something.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: I mean it could be like.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: I will tell you what it reminded me of, and sorry if you guys don't get this reference on, but so a lot of us here in the US were forced to read a story called the Scarlet Letter, right, and so the the religious figure that Hester Prynne, I believe is the name of the bank character you know has this baby with right.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: So she's wearing the scarlet A because it's obvious that she has hornocated, as they would call it back in those days.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: She's, you know, had this child without out of the block or whatever, and it's been branded now.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: But he this religious figure never comes out to take responsibility.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: Right, he doesn't, but what he does is he flogs himself, and so that's kind of what it reminded me of, but instead of him flogging himself, he's having someone else do the vlogging, like it was.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: Just I don't know, that was like the initial imagery that I just got when I want to.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: He was.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: When I was reading the story I was like this is some weird, bizarre stuff.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: And then then get this, you guys, this shit, mama.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: So Mike has always been a bit of a pistol and he was like bitch no.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not getting ready to not tell somebody.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: So he tells his mom.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Now the pastor does tell him or the priest does tell him that hey, if you tell your dad like they might get mad, you know, something might land them in jail.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: Well, you think bitch, well, like what are you talking about?
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: So, but he still goes and tells mom and mom agrees with the priest, like yeah, we probably shouldn't tell dad this.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: And so he doesn't tell dad because mom now has roped him into not telling.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: And you know what his mother does.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: His mother sends him back.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's bad enough that we're not going to tell dad, right, we're not going to tell the one person who might actually go seek justice, right?
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: But then she sends this poor boy back with the baked cake.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: With a baked cake, not you sent your child back to his abuser with a present which, oh, thank you, do this to my child again.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: And probably even more lines.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: Take it a little bit further, not that, but but you know, it's almost like in my mind when people get away with something, they test the waters a little more.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: You're giving him full range.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: At this point.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you've done whatever and apparently whatever happened with this second therapy session.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: He still has not recovered those memories and so in his mind it could only be much worse than but can you imagine?
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine sending your child back like, oh look, I don't have kids, I will be the first one to say that I am not.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: I don't have great maternal instincts.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: Hashtag not a mother.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, right after.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: Wwwnot a mother.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: I do not have kids, do you hear me?
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: But I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go send my child back to his abuser.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: No, I had mentioned how I hope that this documentary, you know, they find a little bit of peace with that because I do worry about his health.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: But then there's also that part of me and you all know this about me.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, we've talked about it several times during this vlog already today.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: But I overanalyze things and I can take things to attend, you know.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: But I also think that's part of my PTSD and I think that that's part of how I've been trained of.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: Now, the other shoes dropping.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: You know, there are going to be negative comments about this documentary.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: Regardless of how great it is, there are going to be negative things said.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: I am terrified that, for someone like Mike who is, who has all this anger, if he's going to say you know what, fuck it.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: And he takes a lot in his own hand.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, he basically goes and says that I am by myself most of the time and I think at one point and I believe his father has passed away, but he pretty much says that Doug, his dad, because he calls him by his first name is the only person who has had the mental capacity to actually deal with him, like to listen to him, because it always goes back to the same thing, like he can't like when.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: So let's go backwards a bit.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: When we talk about Miss Monica, talking about what her, what she, how she thinks of trauma, the sticky thing that keeps you stuck, that's exactly him.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: Like he is stuck because he keeps on seeking justice.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: He never gets it.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Because one of the points that really impacted me and I feel like now might be the time this so yeah, so.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: So basically what happened was they were talking about the reenactment.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: So here we get to where they ask him would you want to reenact the independent review board?
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: That kind of hurt.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: And he was like, absolutely, that's what I want to do, like he was on board with that.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: And then Dan was saying that his story was similar, like he also had to go before this review, and but it was him and his brother and they were having and now from his perspective it's a little bit different, right, they're still kind of young.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: And he's like we're having to tell these stories that we haven't even told each other, and like, and then we're having to be in front of these people, and then that's when the guy gets him with the we'll tell your mother, I'm sorry, and I'm like.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: And he's like well, you tell her that I'm sorry, and here's the thing he went.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: You tell her.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself and this, and they don't say this and no one brings us up in the document but to me I was thinking why didn't they apologize to them?
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: You said tell your mother, we're sorry, but you know, apologize to me.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: And the part that, like, I'm actually getting teared up with this, because when he said it you could tell that he had anger for his mother, but you could tell that he didn't want to, that that she is also a victim of them.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: Just a different way, right, a mental way, because he said you tell my mother you're sorry Because she still believes in you, and I will tell you in now.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: So they did actually have Dan's mother on there, and so I think Dan at one point even asked his mom do you remember when I first told you about it?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: She's completely blocked it out.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: She mentioned that at one point she wanted to commit suicide, but she just like, she just completely like she didn't know oh, let me wrong, she didn't do it.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: My mom said hey, let's take you back to your abuser.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: It was none of that, but she completely was just like she just, she just blocked it out, like she just, and I will say that one of the things.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: So you have Mike for me, you have Dan and you have Michael, who all of them, basically you know, there was this fear for their family members blaming themselves.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: So, like you have Mike, like said, even though Mike, like I said, mike is angry as he is, he's justified, but he's a better person than I am because he's, you know, basically he's like don't blame mom, she was just brainwashed by these folks.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: That's what.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: That's what he has in his head.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: Dan also was like it's not your fault.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: Like you know, he even tells his brother because at one point, you know, his brother was also abused and his brother was his older brother and you know thought, you know, wanted to be a protector for his little brother.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: He's like it's not your fault.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: And even you know, michael, he's like at one point he's like you know, whatever happens from this, what I don't want to happen is for them to feel guilty Like I don't want them to be upset.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: This is the thing that happened.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: It wasn't their fault and I do think that is important and here's why I think so.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: When we start talking about Dan's mom, who completely blocked it out, who just doesn't even remember the first time he told her like there was probably an incredible amount of guilt there, and I think they have to also remember it's not their fault Now.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: It's their fault if they take them back to their abuser.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: You know, even though, again, mike, you know, my man like again, better person than I am saying don't blame mom, but in most cases it's not their fault.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: What should happen is okay.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: My child has told me this.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: What are my actions next?
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: Right, right, what do we do for this child?
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: How do I stand up for my child?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: That's what you thought.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: You know, when he was saying, don't blame the mom, don't blame moms, a part of me was like is it because this church was supposed to be a safe place was stolen from you?
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: And now your mother, who turned a blind eye or blocked things out or sent you with a cake, you know like that's a longer safe place and you're just starving for the safe place that you can't be mad at mom, because if you are, then you lose that too.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: Then you lose that too.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think, like I said, like for Dan's mom, I think that's the case, like she blocked it out, like she probably had so much guilt she didn't know what to do.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: Right, like, how can I let this have?
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: My child, you know, have let this happen to my child, and so, in rather doing something about it, the the easier thing, or her way of coping with it, was to just block it out.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: Right, that was her.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: You know, because I'm supposed to be your protector.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: I have let you down in an unimaginable way, right by letting you go that, like, even though she technically had no control over the actions of these other people, like she blanked herself right for this happening Again, mike's mom, I'm gonna, I'm sorry, mike, like again, how do you take in that information?
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: And then you just say, ah, go on back, go and get it again.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, like, where do they do that?
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: at and that makes me wonder again.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: It's one of those situations where it makes me wonder what abuse have you suffered and where you sent back Right?
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: and I dealt with it, and so why shouldn't you that kind of thing?
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: Because I think what?
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: I think what we forget sometimes as a society is that when someone is a mom or a dad, you know they're always this superhero in your mind they're.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: They're not Don or Scott, they're mom and dad and we forget that mom and dad are also human and mom and dad also have their experiences and they have their lives and they're gonna fuck up sometimes.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: And their traumas and PTSD is going to play a factor, not to mention they are also a victim of, because these priests that are preaching stuff, you know, and in the back molesting boys in between sermons, it's also like, so I'm sure they're saying things in a certain way.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: that's brainwashing the people, or they feel like you're holier, and that's what Mike brings up.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: He brings up that his mom was so brainwashed by them that he thought that they were actually God, which is why he says not to blame them.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: And one thing that also is we taken into consideration, too is yes, this documentary happened, was filmed 2020-2021, but these boys were six, seven, eight years ago, or six, seven, eight years old when that started happening, and the oldest one, I think, is 62.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: So think of the time then, where women's rights were and what women was allowed or and I don't even want to guess allowed, but even even with things evolving, you know you had that traditional household, you know where the, you know, and then in a lot of churches, women wasn't supposed to speak, you know, and so when you have all of that playing a factor too, which I don't think we really got reminded about- Well, and if you think about so, things were not the way that they are now, but even with mental health, like there was things that you just didn't talk about right, and so there there is probably some of that playing a role in some of this.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: It's just growing up in the family that I grew up.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: That's why I find her heart like completely, like that just dumbfounded me.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to justify by any means.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: I would love to say that, regardless of what situation I was in, let my kid walk in here and tell me that I don't care if I'm not supposed to talk in your church or not.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: I don't care if you have a sign out or a protester that says everybody's welcome here, but davidcom, I'm coming inside.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: That mother of a, we're gonna have words, right.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: So I would love to say that I'm that person but you don't know until you're in it, like what?
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: what?
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: Let's say I had children.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: Now they would be a product of their discipline and some of their treatments would be a product of what I've learned through my trauma, you know, and there would also be bad habits that would be taught to them because of, and they would be end up being a victim because of and that doesn't justify you know about any means, but it's what I mean, it's life.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: It's life, right, absolutely, life is messy.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: That's what makes it beautiful.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we go from Mike talking about how he wants to do the reenactment of the independent review to Lake Viking.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: So Lake Viking was the place where Joe, our amputee um, was abused.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: I cannot take a minute to talk about.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the cameraman was doing, but there is this shot of these weird fish.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: I know I'm doing what you were saying.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: I was like what is happening?
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: How did they find that?
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: How did?
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: they find that, and why?
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: did they think that, oh, let's put this into the dark memory?
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: We don't have time to edit, we're just leave that in there.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: We're just gonna leave that.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the hell that was and I was like are these fish dead?
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: Like what is this?
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: Like what is happening here, why?
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: And they stay on it way longer than they should?
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: It's not even like a flash and then we're gone.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: It's like oh hey, here's these dead.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: Whatever fishes I don't know.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: Because you know what they thought.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: Someone like David Keck is going to do a podcast about this and you know he's an over analyzer and thinker, so if we hold it just for three or four seconds, he's gonna build this whole narrative of this.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: Represents their souls, because that's exactly what reminds me.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: Then we flash to the kid.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: So there is this kid.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: So what they, so what they decided to do, so they were first kind of auditioning kids to for these parts and then what they thought that they should do was land on just having one kid play all the parts, because in I believe Dan's word I could be wrong about that he says we are all that one boy.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: And so there's this kid, tarik, who he really, really kind of like.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: He sees himself in this kid.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: He's like there's something divine about that little kid Like he was like and I just like he was like, I feel like that was me when I was a kid.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: And there's this line that they have.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: All the kids say, and it's just something about the way that the kid says that he's like, that's the one and it is.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Forgive me, father, for I have failed in doing right and succeeded in doing wrong.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: Because this kid is doing a confession and there's something in Tarik's eyes and you can see it like Tarik's little shit, like he's like there's innocence there.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: But you could like like seeing what Dan holding the door you know, on Michael, like trying to shut him in that's this kid.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: Like that is this kid, yeah it was very old soul shit, like when he when he said that I was like this is his first time here, like very impactful.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: Right, like it just is, and so now what I will say something else about Tarik's.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: Tarik is his parents, so they interview the parents a little bit.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: The parents like really toiled on letting him do this part.
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: Like they were like we're not even going to tell them about it, like this stuff is too heavy, they slept on it.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: And then they're like I guess we'll tell them about it and we'll talk to them about it, and like they are literally toiling it.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile this kid is like dude, like that's not my reality in there, like, but it really happened.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: He was like, so like it's not happening to me, like this kid is just like, yeah, like and thank god, right, oh, absolutely thank god.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: But for him to be able to.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see where he goes in the future, because for him to be able to embrace that and not have experienced it is like shows his talent Right.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: And just to know that there is still innocence there.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: I think that's what I like.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that was also good for the actual shooting of this right Like there's this kid that has this innocence that's now being taken away.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: Now, luckily, in Tarik's case it's not really being taken away.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: Right, but he has that innocence like he's.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: But it's showing him what's out there, right, and so there is a part that is being taken from him, you know.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: But at the same time.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: It's one of those lessons where he will now know signs where something like that's about to happen to him, and he'll know exactly what my dad looked, which he also seemed like one of those.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to go to my dad, he could handle himself Like even if I don't this ain't happening to him.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: I felt like, like I, I wouldn't want to be this seven years old in the dark alley.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: So after that we get to the body of Christ scene and this is where we kind of come full circle and we're starting to get into seeing that was shot at the beginning.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: So what you have is kind of these kids giving the body of Christ.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: You know he's giving out you know the wafer or?
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: This, that or the other kind of what they would normally do.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: And then the priest takes the kid Tarek's character because this is actually Tarek playing your character at this point Takes him back and gives him actual alcohol.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: Like says here here boy, have a drink with me, like and we're not talking about like oh, a little bit of the wine, like, like the blood of Christ.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: No, that's not what we're doing here.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: We're talking about like brandy bourbon or something.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: Right, right, we took this part out of the Bible.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: But God actually turned into whiskey.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: Chuck this and then he says now it's your turn to disrobe boy.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: And so the kid kind of looks at him like is he looking at me?
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: And he's like giving him like this, like now I have to, I have to give it to Tom.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: So Tom was, who did a lot of the acting, who had also been abused, my man, I mean.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: He played his character like he.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: I felt like he was a creepy old priest.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: But that's the guy that.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: Those are the eyes and the face and the mannerisms that he has seen every night in history, you're right.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: you're right because he was just like he knows that guy he knows that guy.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right, like he knows that guy, and just something else to kind of give you guys an idea.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: So we don't talk about a lot about Tom and that's because Tom can't actually reenact any of the things that has happened to him, because at the time that this was being made, his stuff was still being investigated in the court and in the Vatican, as a matter of fact.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: Like that's how deep this has went.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: So he can't really say much about his particular situation and so his way of being able to contribute was to do a lot of the acting.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: He didn't do it all.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: There is a scene that actual Michael, our queen, does, but that was his way to contribute.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: And let me tell you, you're exactly right, this is what he has seen in his nightmares every night.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: Because when I tell you like I felt, like I kind of felt some kind of way like did he really?
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: Like no, like that's creepy, like that is super, super creepy, so we have that and so then we move on kind of, and then we kind of get into the scene that happens at the beginning and then you know the kid running up and he's standing and and everybody's looking.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody catches on to this, but I'm going to take kind of freak me out a little bit about that scene.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, there was the green glowing eyes, like that was like me, but the kids ears were just glowing red like.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: I know they weren't really red, it was because of the lighting behind him, but it kind of magnified to me this thought of him feeling like everybody is looking.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: You know how somebody gets embarrassed in the red, in the face or whatever case maybe and your ears will burn like that's what I kind of felt like with him like he's up there, everyone's staring at him, and you know, and now these people are now the enablers, because you know, this bad thing has happened and they're just, you know, staring at him like he's the problem.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: Well, and remember, in the beginning, when we talked about this and I said, you know, throughout the show, it kind of became full circle on what it meant, because at first I was like what, what does this, what does this thing mean?
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: And so now's, where it's been in the park, to where I'm like, oh, light bulbs, because.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: And when I was breaking it down and thinking about it, you know, it's like every parent, every authority figure, all eyes were on him, but no one knew why he was acting the way he was acting.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: No one really understood why he ran off, right, no one understood what his fear was, but they were all looking at him, judging him and so were his peers who were also being molested and and traumatized.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: They were also looking at him and that judgmental state and the same shit's happening to them.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: You know that.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: That's how I was taken in you know, and and so, of course, like your ears are burning because you're embarrassed, you're angry, you know, and it just again.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: This, this documentary, really triggered me a lot and it reminded me how I felt in the courtroom and everyone was looking at me.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: I know how to who any of these people were.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: They all knew all this shit about me and I'm expected to do this and act a certain way, and I don't know how to fucking do it, and that that was a trigger for me.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and well, and I'm going to tell you that just kind I don't know that imagery, just like, like I still see that kid, like that's just crazy to me.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: Then from there we have a few other things that happen, um, but I'm going to flash forward to our boy, tom, in the confessional scene, where that we see Tom throughout this documentary and for the most part, you know, you see him in the beginning and he breaks down and cries.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: He's 62 years old and it's still affecting him, but for the most part he's a pretty calm presence, um, throughout this whole thing, until they're getting ready to film the confessional scene and he gets in there and there is this lock in the confessional and he cannot process why there would be a need for this lock in the confessional and he, I mean he snaps, I mean I mean he doesn't have now it's not a snap like Mike snaps, like you know what I mean.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: But you, you go from this very calm presence to this guy who suddenly pissed off at this thing, like you know, and it just you know, and he can't really talk about it because, again, you know, his stuff is so, you know, is still being investigated, so he can't just really let out all the things that he wants to say, um, and at one point he even apologized because I think he punched it or something like that, but it just, it, just, you know, like the things that will trigger you, that's what I took from that, and I hated it for him too, because he put himself in this situation for to better himself and to hopefully help other people.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: But he had to be very calculated on every word that he said, every emotion.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: And so here he is and and it kind of goes back to the the guy when they said, uh, all the other 13 year old kids are able to talk about being 13 and I can't.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: Now here he is.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: All these people that have went through the same shit he's went through is able to show their emotions and get it out.
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: And he can't, and he can't, and then it also just shows.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: You know the little things that will trigger you sometimes.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: So so, like you know people who don't understand trauma and PTSD and things of that nature, you know, and I'll be the first one to say that I don't fully understand it myself, but it to me.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: What people should take away from this is that you need to look upon people with understanding, because you don't know what might set them off Like who knew that this little lot was going to set this man on?
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: Because people do think that a trigger is going to be.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: People associate triggers with guns, and guns.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: I have a big, loud bang and sometimes a very unhappy ending, right, right.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: And so when you hear the word trigger, you associate it with that and you think that it's got to be a mattress hitting a train.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: And no, it could be the slam of a cabinet door.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: Right and it sets them on it could be the clinking of a knife on a wine glass, you know.
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: And that's it, and so, and that was what I found fascinating, Like he just, I mean he just snapped, so then, but he continues to get like my boy Tom, like he's like.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: But I'm going to power through it because I've got you.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: He was like because you know, at one point you know they have a therapist there.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: They're asking him hey, do you want to stop?
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: And he's like no, he's like I'm going to push through.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: He was like this is the way that I can help.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to do it.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: And I can't say like, like, dude, you're my hero, because I would have been like nope done, I'm out, probably not going to see me for a while.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: I need to go sit in the therapy right now.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: But he does he pushes through and they're.
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: At one point Joe asked him to get you know.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: He was like, can you get angry?
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: Like basically he wants for him to basically show control over this child who's on the other side of the professional.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: It just breaks my heart.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: And he was like, well, you know, what do you want me to get mad at?
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: He was like I want you to use the anger at that lock to basically use it against this kid.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: Like basically and I think he even gives him a specific line and I'm going to paraphrase here but the line basically is like if you tell anybody about our special relationship or mom, your family, you will all be kicked out of the church and you'll go to hell.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: Like what kind of shit is that?
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: Putting that pressure on a child.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: Right, like that is like just that just dumbfounded me, and the fact that you know that was something similar that was said to it, like that was because that was the reason that he gave him specifically the line.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: Was because that was what was told to him.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: If you tell anyone about our relationship and you're being, you're being kicked out of the church and you're going to hell.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: And you're taking mom and dad with you.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: And your mom and dad are going with you.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that, just man, it just that, just that just killed me.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: It is a lot Like this.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: The whole documentary just was like man, but oh, I don't know we're going to, we're going to scoot just past that scene.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: And how about my man, ed, on the Speedbag boxing?
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: What I was like go, ed, look at you.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, I see you.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like I was like maybe I should try that, like he was so good at it and it seemed very therapeutic.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: It did seem very therapeutic.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: Now I have hit a Speedbag before.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: I do not have.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: Look, I have great rhythm when it comes to dancing, but when it comes to hitting one of those Speedbags.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: Keanu and I ain't got it Like, let me tell you.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: I don't think that I would either.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: I think like I would come into work on Monday my eyes would be black, my nose would have done a lot on it.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: You'd be like what the hell happened to you?
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: That was I tried to what was it called Speedbag.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Speedbag.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: It's a little stuff.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: My T-bag and a Speedbag.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it is something else, david, david, get your life okay, I hope they don't come across that documentary.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: But that's something completely different.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: Um, but you knew, so I just had to call that out, just because I just thought what, like they just keep on giving little tidbits of random things, I mean you have to, especially in such a dark little thing, something that you can, because, even though that's not necessarily funny, but it's showing ways to cope and deal and manage, which is a positive that needs to be addressed as well.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: Right, absolutely.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: Now we get to Mike talking about his mom and how she took them back and so that they're actually going to play a scene where they have Tarik and actually got Tarik's mom play the mom of Mike and Tarik's Tarik is playing that part and they had Tarik's dad play the priest.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: And so they shoot a scene really quick, just showing the mom, you know, basically dropping him back off to the priest, and he's like mom, I really don't want to go there.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: And she says he's trying to help you.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: Again, this whole situation just tore me up.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: I can stay on that forever.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to move on because I'm going to tell you I just get, I'm with him when I like.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: It just makes my bullet boil every time I think about that Moving on.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: So then we move on back to Dan, dan's mom, and again we talked about this a little bit as well and you know she felt how blind could I be.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: And then who we haven't talked a bit about is Dan's brother, tim.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: Tim, just you know he said that at one point he just felt like he deserved it, Like he, you know, not necessarily he knew it was wrong he felt like he did something at some point that he must deserve this.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: It was something from a punishment or something he had done.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: Right that he had done and that to me was also heartbreaking.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: And very common.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: Very common.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, like you know people, they feel this guilt and the shame, like you know.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: like they like they're such a bad person that I deserve that this should happen to me, or even if they don't think that they're a bad person, they just think that, oh, I messed up this time and so this is the retribution for that one thing that I did wrong.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: All right, so moving on.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: So, shortly after we talked to uh, talked to Tim Tim and he's talking about how he felt deserved we get into Dan and the fishing rod incident Issue it, Issue it, Turn your wine.
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, Is it ever so?
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: Dan basically was given a fishing rod to you spy, Father Monahan, but the fishing rod actually belonged to someone else.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: Dan ends up breaking his fishing rod and basically what happens?
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: When he brings the fishing rod to Father Monahan to tell him or that you know he's broken it, he basically tells this kid that well, this was not my fishing rod, and because you have broken it, you're basically going to have to have sex with this other guy to pay for it.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: basically, like, this is a kid in the fifth grade and you basically told him in order for payment, you're going to have to perform sexual acts in order to pay for this fishing rod.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: Not, hey, let's go.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: You know, see, you know your mother, or you're going to have to work, work on.
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: you know whatever, Get the right, go outside and break the leaves and earn $20.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: No, you're going to have to perform sexual acts, and not for me, I'm passing you on, I'm passing you on Was absolutely dumbfounded, like I just.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: And so when his mom talks about committing suicide and her, you know, blocking this out, like yeah, if my kid you know, I don't know that I would have blocked it out, but yeah, I probably would have wanted to commit suicide.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: Like I have failed to protect this child and to know that he had to perform acts, not only for this priest but now for a complete stranger, like it just ugh.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: So, that being said, so moving along, so what happens next is so they're going to go, he and his brother are going to search for the location of their views, and this is where it gets a little so from.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: So what I'm going to say?
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: From an outside perspective, I didn't quite understand it was going on at first and why there was.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: They were so upset at first.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: Michael's always saving the day.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you Michael.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: I was at point to kind of just he.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: Something that he said is what kind of like?
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, I get it now.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: So they're going to look for this location but they can't get back to it, like for whatever reason.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: like they know that it was a Swiss kind of type house, but they can't remember exactly where it is and so they go riding around they go investigating, they go asking questions and they come to their first location and it looks similar to where they remember, where they remember that they were abused, but it doesn't look exactly like that right Now.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: Mind you, this is also years upon years, upon years later and I don't know that they took that into consideration right off bat.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: But they go around and they can't really, they can't really find it.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: And what happens is is they are both.
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: Both Tim and Dan are in a place of I don't it's confusion is not the word but like they're almost let down because you know they've seen the therapy, this work, you know for the rest of the guys where they're getting to go confront, but they can't find their place.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: Right, and then it also makes them feel as if you know, because it goes back to that whole being believed, right, if I can't find this place, did it really happen?
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: And so it took me a while to get there.
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: But I got there because of Michael, because Michael was like, look, you know, like we need to.
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: First of all, we need to make sure that when we go to a location, that we actually can find it.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: That's the first thing.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: Because he was and he basically goes to say you guys aren't crazy, like that's not what it is it was like, but I do understand that you know it makes you feel that way, like it just, you know you guys want to find it so bad.
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: And then for poor Dan, because he hadn't talked to his brother.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: It made him feel like he drug up a bunch of memories for him without any payoff, right, and so he was really, really worried about that.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: Like, oh my God, like you know, like, I thought I was going to help fix him and I made it worse.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: And I made it worse, and so you know, they eventually end up going to look for it again.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: And then they see, but this time they're on a boat and they can see the place, or whatever the case may be, and they're like look at those stairs, that's it Like.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: And then turns out to be the very first place that they went to begin with.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: And so the owner comes out and says, hey, well, it didn't always look like this.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: There was something that was you know.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: That's now covered up, that used to be here, and then, as they start to explore, that's when it hits Dan that this is the path.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: This is where I broke the fishing rod and so you know, saying all of that, like that kind of, was one of those things that I really understand.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: But can you imagine for a person who is going to look, going to confront you know this horrible thing in their past but they can't find it, and then it's like they start.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: Basically it was almost like they started to question their sanity.
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: And that to me, like from a victim standpoint.
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: I feel like what happens with rape victims often is that they will gas, like you, To test your sanity, and even though no, they weren't being gaslit here, it was just.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: But that's what happens.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 1: Well, and I felt like they think.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: I see this place in my dreams every night, mm-hmm, not realizing nature and time and man is going to be a factor in changing all of those Mm-hmm, you know.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: And so when you're walking through it and you're like, well, there was these trees and there were these colors, and those trees might not be there anymore.
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: Look, they were being gaslit by nature.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: You know and so so.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: Then it's like what was I dreaming all?
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: Of this what you know like doubting yourself when you're the only person that really believed you and you felt like you're the only person you could really trust.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: Now you had to doubt yourself, Right.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: You know, like it's.
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: I mean it's, it's so hard and thank God they found it and thank God, could you imagine them going for a second time?
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: Because therefore a minute I was like oh shit.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: I was like they said this out for there to be a.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: They knew this was one, well, and they were like we need a part two of this documentary.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: So let's set this people up, you know.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: And I was like don't do that to them.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: And then I saw I was like okay, okay, I can breathe.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: So then we cut Now.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 2: So what happens is, then we cut to Mike, a boy, mike, who they are actually talking about how they're going to film his scene.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: But what he starts talking about first, before they get to the scene, is what actually happens, where he's forced to lay on the floor, lay on the floor in his first air of the session, but then it flashes to him talking to the review board and look, I'm trying my very hardest to call him by rat filter, filter, whatever he's calling.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: I think that is a deserving name.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: Joseph Noman, when he basically stays.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: So he's telling his story and the guy keeps on hanging on to what.
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: You had bad behavior before you saw the pastor or the priest Right, and it's like I'm sitting here thinking like what the hell does it have to do with anything?
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: He had bad behavior before he went to this priest.
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: So because he had bad behavior, he deserved to be abused.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: Is that what you're trying to?
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: say Right.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: He did not write a hundred sentences when he should have been punished with only writing 50 sentences.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: That's not Right.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: And so, and so, basically, what he has is this, you know.
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: So then we get into him, just basically reenacting this whole thing Like, and to me that, like when that hit me, like when I said that out loud, like that killed me, like really like this is what we're going to do, like you're going to Still confused.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: How does the bad behavior have anything to do with being abused?
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: That's what you want to go.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm writing you a letter and I will tell you.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: Well, they did write him a letter.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: They told him that they couldn't just substantiate his credibility.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: So he just you know, and that's what, of course, makes him snap Now what they do, go and I think this was very therapeutic for him.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: Was then, after they reenacted, what happened with this independent review board they allow him to say what he felt like he should have said, and I wish y'all could see my face right now, lord, at the time that this review board, this review, happened.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: And when I tell you, this boy goes in.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: He goes in, look, he says so many words, so many four little words.
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not even going to go through most of that, but what I did catch on was one of the last things that he says was look, I will never know the joy of having a child, but if I did, I would rather let a crack whore baby sit.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: And I was like not a crack whore bike, not a crack whore.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: Then let y'all, Could we?
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: And let's help all the crack whores.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: Let's help them Right.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: Don't want a baby to sit Right.
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: Don't let the priest do it either.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm sure there's a cousin.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: You know, Betty, next door is lovely.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: Right, not a crack whore Like.
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: He just like, and he went in.
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: Now he does know.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: What I do like about him is that he does whisper to the kid because Tarik is.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: So basically let me set the scene up again for you guys is it's got child Tarik or Tarik who is the actor?
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: So basically it should be child Mike played by Tarik, and then it has adult Mike and basically what Mike is doing is standing up for child Mike.
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: He's being a protector over the kid and at one point and like I said, he's letting like I'm talking about like just absolute disdain amount of his mouth.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: At one point it's kind of whispers to the kid.
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: Don't take this too serious.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: So so there's goodness there.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: I loved that moment too, and he was saying look, I'm mad, I'm hurting, I'm angry.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: You're going to see a side of me, but Just don't take it too serious.
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: Like you're safe, you're fine.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: Right, Like he just you know, and then, after all this said and done and I really this really kind of was like a heartwarming moment for me.
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, Tarik, I think they asked Mike how he feels and he says he feels so good, Like it was.
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: He says it was like an elephant sitting on his chest.
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: And then he asked the kid you know he's okay.
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: The kid says he's okay, but the thing that Tarik says to him he says I believe.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: He says I think he is strong and I believe him 100% and you should see Mike's face just kind of light up, like he's like.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: That meant a lot.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: So you can see that a lot of his issue comes from the fact that he wasn't believed.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: His mother made him, by taking him back, made him feel like he wasn't believed.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: Um, then this review board made him feel like, like he feels like.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: I can't prove that.
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: I, which all believe me, I don't know Like he feels, like I know y'all believe me, but y'all keep saying that you don't Like, you.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: You're lying about this whole situation.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: I can't prove it, but you're lying.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: You know, it really made me think a lot about the word believe and I honestly felt like the greatest compliment that you could probably give anybody and the greatest compliment that you could definitely give him and he got it in closing is saying I believe you, you know, and that I'm kind of getting choked about it now, like I, you, because you're right, you can see this breath, this release, you know, and hearing those words that he's been wanting to hear, right.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: From from someone who doesn't know him, yeah, um.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: So now when we move on to Ed's scene, um, so Ed's scene also has so Ed, my man, ed, was doing a lot.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: Um, so he has Michael, our queen, um, playing a scene for him.
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: And so what you put to is Michael in his robes and he's getting prepared, but what was supposed to be portrayed is someone who is really pulling the wool over someone's eyes.
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 2: It's not really for going out here to be holy, it's really it's showtime, like.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: He's the hustler, like and like.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: At one point he even looks in the mirror with the sense he's like it's showtime and um, and so then he goes out and all you see are the hands.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: You see the hands that.
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: Ed was talking about earlier, that he wanted to do Hands, hands, hands, hands.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: He's giving people the wafer.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: He's, you know, giving people the sip of the blood of Christ.
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: You know, it's all about the hands.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: Like he's doing all of these things.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: It's not even a damn thing to him, it's just showtime for him.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: I'm putting on a show.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm going to do.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: All these people are eating this shit up.
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 2: That's what's supposed to be portrayed.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: Then you flash to and this is probably for me the most uncomfortable scene of the whole thing Um, to the point where I was so relieved when they yelled to cut I didn't know what to do with myself.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: And so you flash to the priest and you're in an all brown room we're talking about, like seventies, paneling, looking stuff.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: And kid comes in and he's asking him to help him back.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: Now the conversation first starts off like normal, like hey, you know, how was school, how was your mom, you know?
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: Like you know we're thinking okay, like this is not that bad, right, like he's just asking normal questions.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: And then he's giving him order, saying hey, grab this out of the, out of the drawer and put that in there.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 2: Now do this, now do that.
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: And then he says to the kid and this is where it starts to get a little uncomfortable he says to the kid um, you need to do confession before I leave.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: The kid said well, I did it last month.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: And he was like tell me what you did, confess, right, what have you done?
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: So he tells him that he, you know, cheated on a test.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: He's been fighting with his brother and he was like you can't lie to me, like what else?
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: He was like tell me what, um, tell me about the impure thoughts that you've been having about girls.
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 2: And the kid is completely confused by now.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: Like he's like what.
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 2: He was like I don't know what you're talking about.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: He was like um, and again, go to under pressure and say that he can't lie to him.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: And he was like show me what you do when you think about girls.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: Now, mind you, at this point we flashed and so this brown room has now turned all white.
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: The priest is sitting on the bed in his underwear and the kid is now in his underwear as well, and he pulls him close and he tells him again I say show me what you do when you think about, or have impure thoughts about girls.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: And then finally, as you know, he's got this kid super close to him.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: Finally we hear cut.
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: Like I couldn't even breathe while you were talking about it, because I remember watching him was like I just want to go get tea, like I don't feel right watching it.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: Right, like it just was so, like I just, you know, was so.
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: I was like please, please, stop, stop.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: And especially when he's like don't lie, like wait a minute, like this is a kid, maybe he doesn't, maybe he's not at that point in his life yet yeah.
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: You know, and then the fact oh, you're going to show me what you do when you, when you think about these girls like and and and ask to say not only like, I'm going to not that I'm going to watch you do.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: but what you, what you with these impure thoughts, like no, you're going to perform it on me, like that's the indication that I got from it.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, please, please, please, make that stop.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: Like and when he yells and Ed yells cut, like I'm going to show you what I'm going to do.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: So I was like I'm going to show you what I'm going to do.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: And then he goes.
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: You know, he goes cut like, he does like, and he yells it loud too.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, thank God, like I'm just I can't watch this.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: Like I thought this was going to be the point that I turned this thing off.
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: And this is where we end.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: And cut the end, goodbye.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: I can't watch this.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: Um and so, and then after he yells cut, then we actually get Talking about that.
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: He has had correspondence with the chief of police and the special prosecutor and basically he gets this letter that basically states that they're done with his case.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: Like they were, like they basically say hey.
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: Well, this letter shouldn't be used to vindicate this asshole who did this to you.
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: We have come to the conclusion that you are a victim, but due to we ain't got enough resources, we're just gonna say fuck this shit.
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the end.
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: That's basically what it said, I mean, I mean, it was of course For nicely a bit more nicely than that, but that's basically what they said to him like, look, we feel like you have a case, we feel like this that you're a victim of, but because we don't have the resources, fuck you in your case.
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 2: Next, there's other things that we got to take care of like what the hell is kind of shit?
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: is that like, how is that justice for anybody?
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, I do understand that Unfortunately, with police departments and things, a lot of times they do have scary sources.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that they're not, but like, is there not a process to figure out?
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, this, this person has actually been wrong.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: This person has actually abused.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 2: Like can we call somebody in like?
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: we just tell people can we call rebecca?
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: She knows what the hell she's doing.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: Can we call rebecca?
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: Like right, I don't know what the fuck is going on, you don't have her number on your desk.
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: Like how do we roll an X Right?
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: Like what the shit?
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: Like I don't.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 1: Like, she will tell you what to do.
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: She probably has a box on her.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: Right, several boxes, that would be real, and so that just confused the hell out of me.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, and I don't want to, you know I don't want to dog out the police, you know, because you know they're here to to uphold the law.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: You know, don't get me wrong there are, you know, I feel like.
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: You know we can talk about police brutality.
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: There's good and there's bad police right, um, but ultimately, like you're just like okay, we're just not going to do anything with this, um, we've got to worry about other things, like I.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: That just is so confusing to me, you know.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: And I think we all in our careers get put in one of those situations, especially with you know, the jobs that we have and no one people with like medical situations that could hinder their job employment.
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: You know, and and there are, of course, times that we just don't have an answer for them, and I'm sure every career meets that but help lead them into a direction saying you know what, we don't know what to do, we don't have the resources to do it.
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: Try reaching out to some.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: Right somebody, something, anything like give them some kind of help, like not just oh well, yeah, we really think you're a victim, but yeah, well, you're like didn't matter then and honestly, it really doesn't matter now right, like that was, I don't know that.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: That just hurt my heart so bad.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: So then he he talks about how they he basically Someone got him in touch with someone who could reach out to the pope and he actually was written back from the pope.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: And the pope writes back to him and says basically asks forgiveness, pray for, and that they both pray for each other.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: Um, but ultimately they still decline to remove Um the guy, father or monty or whatever he is from priesthood.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: Um, and I just felt like I mean, don't get me wrong like okay, fine, the pope takes the time to write me back, but it's like nothing.
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 2: Nothing happened from this.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: It wasn't really the pope.
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: It's, that's no, you know it's probably someone that worked for the pope.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: You're right.
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: Do you really think the pope is sitting around with a feather pen and ink running out.
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: Let's pray for each other and what we have heard in other cases and If something like this happens, and well, when something like this happens and it's going to become public, and so sometimes businesses and companies and organizations Would rather keep that off the public record and so, therefore, they just shoot the victim away Right to try to slip in the rug and be done with it Right.
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and, and I will say that Ed was poor Ed's sweet art, you know he he ends it with well, I just think that the pope didn't have the clout that he thought he did.
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 2: And the fact that you can still believe in that whole like, okay, like the pope, really, he just couldn't, his hands were tied, you know, okay, I, I guess at least it's something that you can still believe in, because I'm telling you it's all aren't to hell in my book if that, if that happened to me, right, you know, like it's just no, yeah, um, and so it just, I don't know that that just ending with that just kind of Whoo, maybe feel some kind of way, then we fast forward.
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: So this is when they're like literally bringing up all the letters, right, so he's got, so it has just gotten his letter.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: So now, mr Joe, mr Joe is writing a letter to the past, joe, like kid Joe.
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that Joe had mentioned earlier on and that we didn't talk about was that he could never confront His younger self like he wanted to be able to confront him's younger self, tell him that everything is going to be okay, but he had completely just locked that kid away, like that kid just no longer existed.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: And he writes this very long letter and if he wrote this himself, it my man or not?
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: Sorry, joe, my man.
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: He is very good with birds.
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah like it just was a very.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: I'm reading your book, yeah very heart felt letter to baby Joe and I just I couldn't get over of how well written.
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: The same thing was, and to the point at which point, eventually, he basically tells younger Joe that you become the superhero that you looked up to.
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: Right, superman was someone you looked up to, um, you know, because he was different.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: How often did you feel different because of what happened to you?
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 2: And now you're.
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: You have Dedicated your daily purpose into helping those kids that felt the same, and so I.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: Just it was just such a heartfelt letter.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that quote that, you know, we see in here.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: At the time she needed a hero, so that's what she became.
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was just so well written.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 2: Then we move on To Mike, who is sitting in a booth by himself.
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: Apparently, this booth is the booth that he and his dad used to come and talk Just about every day and he basically tells his dad that he's going to keep seeking justice, like he, like he can't help but to continue on like he was.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 2: Like I will do it until I get it.
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: Um, he had at this point, I think he um reached out to the kansas bureau of investigation to take on his case.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 2: Like this maintenance not going to stop.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 2: Like I'm telling y'all, y'all better give him, like he's wanting something, y'all better give it to him because he's not going to stop.
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 2: Like he's just not um.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 2: And then we kind of get to the point where we're starting to close out the, the documentary.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: So you have tom, who we had mentioned before, who's just not really able to talk about his stuff because it's being pursued in court.
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 2: He was still waiting for his day in court.
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: You have ed, who basically ends on saying that you know he wants to use this film to explain his abuse to his daughter, like he feels like they need to have that conversation, but it can't be him just talking to her, like he wants to use this to kind of help explain.
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 2: Um then we flashed to some writing that says december 2020 michael's abuser that we're talking about equine His abuser died.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: He quietly was removed from priesthood days before his death.
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 2: So and so I don't really.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 2: So here's let's talk about that a little bit, right?
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: So it says he was quietly removed from priesthood days before his death.
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: So did they remove him from priesthood because he was dying or because they knew this man fucked up, abused this person and was like you know what?
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: Now we're gonna do it while he's dying and nobody's really paying attention.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 2: Let's remove him now.
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: I think they did it to try to shut michael up, so they knew that he was a dead man already there was, he wasn't coming back and so let's remove him.
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: Michael will be happy that he's removed him, but like he got justice and we'll move on and the church won't have to hear about it again.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: I think that's what it was.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: To me that's just such bullshit Like oh my god, that is so horrible.
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: Then we move on to mr Dan, who has shaved his beard.
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: Finally, we didn't mention this um in the beginning, but mr Dan and his beard, um, my favorite part was um when, um, our girl sasha Was like what is this?
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: And he's got this.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: He was like, oh, I'm just torturing my life, that's all Right, right.
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: And so he, finally, he finally, shaves it by the end and it has a nice little picture of him and his wife, you know, and his wife is quite a pretty lady, Um.
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 2: And then we finally hear the last word of um joe that I had mentioned earlier, reading his letter basically talking about how Superman was the hero Um, and that joe has actually become the epic hero in the story of us.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: I had a hard time with the stock memory and even us discussing it at times.
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: There were times I was able to chime in and talk and there were times I just had to sit here and be quiet and Focus on breathing.
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: You know there was a lot of triggers that came with it.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: I'm very glad that I watched it, I'm very glad that we discussed, and I think it's a good way to open up um season two, um, and of course this was kind of a long documentary too, so it took it.
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: It took us a while to even.
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was another good way to open up season two is, you know, have like a nice, a nice couple hours with us, and then, you know, but I, uh remember in the beginning when I said that I was mad, I still am, and uh, but but not as you know, I did feel a little bit at peace for these guys when, when it was time to to turn it off, but I, I don't know if they're ever going to find the justice that they deserve.
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like that that most of them are not going to find justice.
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: Like I'm hanging on for Tom's story because his is actually, you know, being investigated in the actual Vatican, which, I mean, that's pretty big and as well, as you know, in the judicial system.
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm holding hoping that he, like some of it, got put off due to COVID and so I'm really hoping that maybe now that they're in court 100% and maybe now that they've all developed this bond in this brotherhood, that with them doing this documentary now and while while his is still in court and being open and based, that because of the attention that's going to come out of this documentary, maybe there will be acts to happen even just for his case, but because that bond they would all feel a bit of justice from that.
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: I mean hopefully, because the one of the things that they did mention and they did it together.
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 2: And they did it, like they mentioned, that they did this together and it also helped them in their healing, in their healing to to do it for one another, like so like Michael is.
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 2: Just like you know.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: It made him very uncomfortable to shoot that scene that he did like he'll.
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 2: It made me feel uncomfortable.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it was like for him, but he did it because he wanted to help out Ed like he felt like he owed it to him even though he doesn't owe Ed anything but because he understands it, because he was there, because he was also that boy, he felt like he owed it and it helped him in his healing, like that's what he wanted to do.
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: There's something about service To another person that sometimes helps us, um in our healing 100, because you feel so destroyed and so broken down, and all because of someone else.
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: And so when you become that person that does the opposite.
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: For someone else to a stranger or to a friend in need, then that it's a beautiful feeling.
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm so glad we did this one.
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 1: So glad that you're with me.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: I uh, I want people to To send us documentaries that you would like for us to to check out.
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 1: Um, this will be the time that Keanu will be mostly driving the car and you know, and I'll just be here filling in my scenarios and, uh, how I relate to things and chat for a minute.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: So, since Keanu is mostly going to be the leader of this part, I have a homework assignment for her.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, you do.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: What is that homework?
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: Like, how great would it be and and we can, we can do this together, of course but how great would it be if we contacted these guys and asked them to be a guest on the show.
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 2: We can definitely.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: I would love that, because there are so many people like documentaries and, of course, true crime is so big and they're all doing podcasts like how great would that be?
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: So, um, let's work on that.
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 2: We will work on that.
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for doing this.
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be back, I'm glad the holidays are over.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm so appreciative to the listeners and please, please, please, send us your thoughts, comments like shares and uh ideas for, for uh, for uh documentaries you'd like for us to cover.
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: Have a good night, everybody.
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: Hey, hey, and I feel I'm done hurting.