Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 780: Unforgettable Storytelling: Phillip Andrew on Creativity, Leadership, and Resilience

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IFH 780: Unforgettable Storytelling: Phillip Andrew on Creativity, Leadership, and Resilience · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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Speaker 1: You are listening to the ifh podcast Network.
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Speaker 2: For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to
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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Indie Film Muscle Podcast, Episode number seven
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Speaker 3: eighty Cinema should make You forget. You're sitting in a theater,
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Speaker 3: Roman Polanski.
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Speaker 2: Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
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Speaker 2: Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
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Speaker 2: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
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Speaker 2: the film biz.
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Speaker 4: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
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Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Huscle Podcast.
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Speaker 3: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
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Speaker 3: sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn
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Speaker 3: your independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today
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Speaker 3: than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with
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Speaker 3: That's film bizbook dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest
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Speaker 3: host Dave Bullis.
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Speaker 5: On this week's episode of the podcast, we have a
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Speaker 5: guest from lawhere Else.
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Speaker 4: We we again.
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Speaker 5: We met through the power of Twitter, and this guest
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Speaker 5: and I are going to be talking all about what
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Speaker 5: an education really means. You know, we talk about college education.
2:08
Speaker 5: We talk about moving on to la the ups, the downs,
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Speaker 5: you know, pretty brutal, honest interviews. As my guest shares
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Speaker 5: a lot of his downs, and you know how he
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Speaker 5: actually networked and it wasn't the traditional ways, and and
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Speaker 5: just finding through all of this sort of maze of things,
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Speaker 5: and the whole concept of this interview is going to
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Speaker 5: be unforgettable storytelling as we kind of talk a lot
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Speaker 5: about the different methods of storytelling, and you know, directly
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Speaker 5: and indirectly a lot of the other things that go
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Speaker 5: on here, and you know, what ideas stick, what ideas
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Speaker 5: don't stick, Unreliable narrators, you know, all that good stuff. So,
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Speaker 5: without further ado with guests Philip Andrew.
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Speaker 1: Oh, Man, you gotta be careful who you meet on
2:52
Speaker 1: the interwebs, man, you know, isn't it crazy that like
2:55
Speaker 1: years ago you would never it was weird to meet
2:59
Speaker 1: like like it was weird to go online dating. You
3:02
Speaker 1: would never. You were told to never take rides with strangers.
3:06
Speaker 1: And now our entire world is like based around like
3:09
Speaker 1: uber and lyft and like jumping in the cars with
3:11
Speaker 1: strangers and that's completely okay. And like nobody even knows
3:14
Speaker 1: how to meet each other in person anymore. Everybody's always
3:17
Speaker 1: you know, you got to swipe right, sweite left to
3:19
Speaker 1: meet anyone. Like things have changed so quickly it's insane.
3:24
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you're encouraged now to trust strangers, like
3:27
Speaker 5: put all your faith and your bodily harm and strangers.
3:30
Speaker 4: It's it's kind of crawl.
3:31
Speaker 1: Man. I remember I went to a so I'm here,
3:34
Speaker 1: I'm out here in Los Angeles, and I remember going
3:37
Speaker 1: to a party and we go to this party and
3:40
Speaker 1: it's kind of like at the base of like the
3:42
Speaker 1: Hollywood Hills. It's like a nice house but nothing too insane.
3:45
Speaker 1: And we go to this house and we're like kind
3:47
Speaker 1: of like, yo, what is this party for? Like who's
3:49
Speaker 1: is it? Someone's birthday? What is And they're like, oh no,
3:51
Speaker 1: it's this like new startup app. And we're like what
3:54
Speaker 1: the hell is that? And they're like, oh well, it's
3:56
Speaker 1: like here and they handed me a pen like the
3:58
Speaker 1: only party get. We're like a pen with the logo
4:01
Speaker 1: on it, like you would get at some you know,
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Speaker 1: at like a trade show. And I look at it
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Speaker 1: and I'm like lift, I go, what the hell is Lyft?
4:11
Speaker 1: And they go, oh yeah, man, it's like this app
4:13
Speaker 1: where you can, you know, you can get rides from
4:16
Speaker 1: people that are already going the way that you're going.
4:18
Speaker 1: And I was like, so you get in a car
4:20
Speaker 1: with a Stranger and the Way. Yeah, and I was like,
4:23
Speaker 1: this is the dumbest idea ever. It'll never work. And
4:27
Speaker 1: then like years later, I'm the guy who has to
4:29
Speaker 1: sit here and be like, oh, I guess I'm not
4:30
Speaker 1: that much of an innovator, you know.
4:32
Speaker 5: I'm surprised they actually gave away pens, you know, because
4:36
Speaker 5: like an idea for me, if you're gonna do like
4:38
Speaker 5: a launch like that, you'd give away like a service,
4:41
Speaker 5: so you would say, hey, this is the service, this
4:42
Speaker 5: is Lyft, and you would kind of demonstrate it, you
4:45
Speaker 5: know what I mean, because pens. Yeah, I think pens
4:47
Speaker 5: are kind of I mean, don't get me wrong, I
4:50
Speaker 5: still use pens every day, but but pens, I just
4:53
Speaker 5: don't know if if they really have the same marketing
4:55
Speaker 5: branding powers.
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Speaker 4: They once had, you know, no, definitely, yeah, you know
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Speaker 4: what I mean.
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Speaker 5: It's just like I don't think people you look at
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Speaker 5: that and go, oh man, I gotta use Lyft now
5:04
Speaker 5: that I'm using their pen, come.
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Speaker 1: On, right, Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of crazy, so,
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Speaker 1: but yeah, it was. I always try to remember that
5:12
Speaker 1: anytime that I want to anytime, my first immediate reaction
5:15
Speaker 1: is to want to like rip something apart. You know,
5:18
Speaker 1: then I'm like, wait a minute, think think in a
5:21
Speaker 1: different world where maybe this could work. How would it work,
5:23
Speaker 1: why would people?
5:24
Speaker 3: You know?
5:24
Speaker 1: And it it just forces me, you know, I think
5:27
Speaker 1: in life you always have those examples of things that
5:29
Speaker 1: happen when you were completely and utterly wrong. And so
5:33
Speaker 1: it's like it reminds me to be like, all right,
5:35
Speaker 1: don't don't try to crush this dream or don't try
5:38
Speaker 1: to you know, don't don't veto this idea, really give it,
5:42
Speaker 1: give it a little bit of time, think it through
5:44
Speaker 1: and see if there is something there, rather than just
5:46
Speaker 1: giving snap judgments on stuff. So I try to use
5:48
Speaker 1: it as like a life lesson.
5:49
Speaker 4: I guess yeah, yeah right.
5:52
Speaker 5: So, and you know when you saw these new apps
5:54
Speaker 5: come out, now you kind of wonder how it all
5:56
Speaker 5: ties in together, because you know, with all these apps
5:59
Speaker 5: coming out, you go, my god, there's so many out there,
6:01
Speaker 5: and there's so many different social media channels. It's like,
6:03
Speaker 5: you know what what catches on what doesn't. And that's
6:06
Speaker 5: why there's so many books now written about this stuff,
6:09
Speaker 5: about business and about you know, ideas that catch it.
6:12
Speaker 5: There's actually a book called Sticky and it's actually about
6:14
Speaker 5: what ideas stick and what does and what doesn't and
6:16
Speaker 5: why that is.
6:18
Speaker 1: Oh no way, I'm reading a book right now called
6:20
Speaker 1: Sticky Marketing.
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Speaker 5: Oh, sticky Marketing. I don't know if it's the same one, Yeah,
6:25
Speaker 5: but it could be.
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Speaker 1: I did, I did see that. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, like,
6:29
Speaker 1: I know, they've had tons of studies come out with
6:30
Speaker 1: like what makes what makes something memorable? What? What? How
6:34
Speaker 1: do you know? How do you help things add to
6:36
Speaker 1: your memory? What? What makes something emotional? What is the best?
6:39
Speaker 1: You know? For us as as storytellers, it's like always
6:42
Speaker 1: trying to figure out exactly like what is going to
6:44
Speaker 1: resonate with with the target audience, what's going to stick
6:49
Speaker 1: with them? What is it that they like, you know,
6:51
Speaker 1: what is it that they remember? You know, even we
6:54
Speaker 1: talk about it, you know, from speaking standpoints when uh,
6:57
Speaker 1: you know, so often people will go in and they
7:00
Speaker 1: could go to a conference and have a great time,
7:03
Speaker 1: and then you'd be like, oh, what did the speaker
7:05
Speaker 1: talk about or who is the speaker And they'll go, oh,
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Speaker 1: I don't know, but he told this story about blah
7:09
Speaker 1: blah blah, And it's like that's people don't remember the names. Necessarily,
7:13
Speaker 1: they don't even remember where the information came from. They
7:15
Speaker 1: remember these powerful stories. And I think that's really important
7:19
Speaker 1: for us to realize, like anytime that anytime you're whether
7:23
Speaker 1: you're in marketing or advertising or you know, for us
7:26
Speaker 1: in TV or wherever, like, it's important to tell great
7:30
Speaker 1: stories that people want to repeat, you know. I mean
7:34
Speaker 1: that's that was even before we had things to write
7:37
Speaker 1: down and before we had TV, and way back in
7:39
Speaker 1: the day, that's how things got told. That's how we
7:41
Speaker 1: taught people how to you know, how to behave what
7:44
Speaker 1: was the proper way to handle certain situations, how do
7:47
Speaker 1: you stay motivated? It was all through story. It was
7:50
Speaker 1: all through generational storytelling. And I think it's important that
7:55
Speaker 1: we don't ever allow ourselves to get so caught up
7:58
Speaker 1: in the technology, you know, that we forget that while
8:02
Speaker 1: it's amazing to have these brand new you know, these
8:05
Speaker 1: amazing cameras that look insane in VR in three D,
8:10
Speaker 1: and we're getting all this amazing technology, at the core,
8:13
Speaker 1: at the root of it, the most important thing is
8:17
Speaker 1: still storytelling and telling a great, captivating, memorable story. And
8:22
Speaker 1: if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how cool
8:25
Speaker 1: the footage is. It doesn't matter how great the audio is.
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Speaker 1: If you're not saying something that is worth people wanting
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Speaker 1: to hear and wanting to repeat, then what the hell
8:34
Speaker 1: are we doing?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's sort of like the story behind, you know,
8:38
Speaker 5: even the story you tell within the company, right, So
8:40
Speaker 5: there's a story that you know, the managers and directors
8:43
Speaker 5: and all that they have to tell everybody. It's like
8:45
Speaker 5: being on a film set, you know, because we're you know,
8:47
Speaker 5: we're both in the same industry. So if you're the director,
8:51
Speaker 5: you want to be able to sort of you must
8:54
Speaker 5: create that. I guess zeitgeist is the right word I'm
8:56
Speaker 5: looking for, right, We want to create a sort of
8:58
Speaker 5: you know, feeling on set, and it's it's almost like
9:01
Speaker 5: the story you're telling them. You know, there's a there's
9:03
Speaker 5: a quick adicdode I want to tell. It's a friend
9:06
Speaker 5: of mine was working on a film with Spike Lee,
9:08
Speaker 5: and Spike Lee actually got on the got in front
9:10
Speaker 5: of everybody the day of that they started filming, and
9:13
Speaker 5: he actually he goes, this was like a whole different Spike,
9:16
Speaker 5: and he was like, Hey, you know what if we
9:17
Speaker 5: all work together and do all this together, We're going
9:20
Speaker 5: to make a damn good film. And he was like, man,
9:22
Speaker 5: he goes this Spike is awesome because it's like, you know,
9:24
Speaker 5: he's up there telling the story about how we're all
9:26
Speaker 5: going to work together and we're all just going to
9:28
Speaker 5: make this amazing thing and it was and it's going
9:30
Speaker 5: to be fantastic. And that really stuck with all the
9:33
Speaker 5: crew after that. After Spike did that.
9:36
Speaker 1: I think that's I think it's key, right, It's like
9:39
Speaker 1: and I think there's you know, you study, I've studied
9:43
Speaker 1: a lot of like the great uh you know battle
9:45
Speaker 1: you know war war like generals and people that led
9:49
Speaker 1: people into massive wars. And you know, people don't want
9:53
Speaker 1: to fight for someone when from the comfort of their
9:56
Speaker 1: own home.
9:58
Speaker 3: We'll be right back for a word from our sponsor
10:04
Speaker 3: and now back to the show, you know, like.
10:08
Speaker 1: They want to they want to feel like their leader
10:10
Speaker 1: is out in front, like their leader is there and
10:12
Speaker 1: is willing to go through the battle with them, you know.
10:15
Speaker 1: And I think that's so important. I think that was
10:16
Speaker 1: great that that Spike did that. I had a moment.
10:19
Speaker 1: I remember I had a director, you know, executive producer,
10:23
Speaker 1: showrunner that I was working with on a project. His
10:25
Speaker 1: name was Phil Lot, and Phil was an amazing guy.
10:29
Speaker 1: In one of the first things I ever saw Phil do,
10:31
Speaker 1: and I still can picture this to this day. We're
10:34
Speaker 1: running around the craziness of getting the first day and
10:36
Speaker 1: getting some getting the shots set up, and I remember,
10:39
Speaker 1: in all the craziness, for some reason, I like, look
10:41
Speaker 1: over and I see Phil and there was a there
10:43
Speaker 1: was a plug for a light that needed to get
10:46
Speaker 1: plugged in, and it was underneath the table. And you know,
10:50
Speaker 1: Phil has been in the industry for you know, twenty
10:52
Speaker 1: twenty five years. He's won tons of awards, very very talented,
10:58
Speaker 1: and he doesn't he's got his way. He easily could
11:01
Speaker 1: have said, you know, hey, you know Phil for an
11:02
Speaker 1: available PA, I need somebody to you know, come plug
11:05
Speaker 1: this light in. And it would have been normal, it
11:07
Speaker 1: would have been fine, It would have no one would
11:10
Speaker 1: have thought anything of it. But I sat there and
11:12
Speaker 1: watched the showrunner of the project get down on his
11:16
Speaker 1: hands and knees, crawl underneath the table, plug this light
11:20
Speaker 1: in and then walk back or crawl back from underneath
11:23
Speaker 1: the table and started adjusting the light. And I remember,
11:26
Speaker 1: like it was young in my career. I was probably
11:28
Speaker 1: only twenty four to twenty five and I remember just
11:30
Speaker 1: seeing that and it had I mean, here it is,
11:33
Speaker 1: I'm still telling the story. I had a profound impact
11:35
Speaker 1: on me because I knew, Man, I'm working for a
11:39
Speaker 1: guy that's willing to do the work too. You know,
11:41
Speaker 1: He's not just some guy up here shouting orders. He's
11:44
Speaker 1: not just some guy that wants to sit back and
11:46
Speaker 1: have his coffee and make everyone else do it. He's
11:48
Speaker 1: willing to go. He's willing to do the work too.
11:52
Speaker 1: And it made me that much more excited to want
11:55
Speaker 1: to work with him and learn from him because I understood, Man,
11:58
Speaker 1: that's the type of guy he is, and that's the
12:01
Speaker 1: type of guy that I want to help see win.
12:03
Speaker 1: And I think that was so it's great that Spike
12:05
Speaker 1: did that. I mean, I like I said, I think
12:07
Speaker 1: that's really important that people, you know, the stories that
12:12
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves, and also like the way that we
12:14
Speaker 1: show up to other people and how we are perceived
12:18
Speaker 1: in what we do. We want to make people want
12:21
Speaker 1: to win with us, you know. And I think when
12:23
Speaker 1: you can do that, when you can have everybody on
12:26
Speaker 1: a team that is working towards one common goal, I
12:29
Speaker 1: think it's a really powerful thing. And you can achieve
12:31
Speaker 1: a lot of really great stuff.
12:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, you have to lead by example and not be
12:36
Speaker 5: one of those guys just barking on orders, you know.
12:38
Speaker 5: I mean, and we've all been on those film sets too,
12:41
Speaker 5: where you know, maybe a student film I see a
12:44
Speaker 5: lot in you know, I used to work with a
12:45
Speaker 5: lot of student filmmakers, and it's the kind of I
12:50
Speaker 5: guess maybe they kind of feel like the condomy to
12:52
Speaker 5: to micromanage and they kind of use that as a
12:54
Speaker 5: way of directing, or they are and professionals do that too.
12:57
Speaker 4: I mean, hell, you know what I mean. So it's
12:59
Speaker 4: one of those.
12:59
Speaker 5: Things where you want to lead, you want to let
13:02
Speaker 5: people know that that you're kind of there. Kind of
13:04
Speaker 5: you kind of have to be the mother and the
13:06
Speaker 5: father so to speak, you know what I mean. You
13:07
Speaker 5: kinda have to say, yeah, we're a team, we're gonna
13:09
Speaker 5: do this right, and also either got to be the
13:11
Speaker 5: father and like all right, let's let's pull up our
13:13
Speaker 5: sleeves and gotta get this done.
13:15
Speaker 1: Definitely, I think it's an you know, and I think
13:17
Speaker 1: that's why just in you know, like with him, you know,
13:20
Speaker 1: with Spike doing that at the beginning of shooting, I
13:22
Speaker 1: think setting the tone is so very, very important. Like
13:27
Speaker 1: so yesterday, I'm I'm producing a new project for a
13:30
Speaker 1: for a large digital media platform, and you know, it
13:35
Speaker 1: was our first day on set, and I scheduled a
13:37
Speaker 1: thirty minute meeting that probably only needed to be ten,
13:41
Speaker 1: but it was the first day of filming, and I
13:43
Speaker 1: scheduled this thirty minute meeting and I went over everything
13:47
Speaker 1: with everyone. You know, we went over safety, I went
13:49
Speaker 1: over you know, expectations, made sure everyone was introduced, everyone
13:53
Speaker 1: knew who was leading what departments, and in really just
13:58
Speaker 1: set expectations that people knew if you have a problem
14:01
Speaker 1: where to go.
14:03
Speaker 2: You know.
14:03
Speaker 1: I walked people through creative which a lot of times,
14:06
Speaker 1: especially in what we do, not everyone is you know,
14:09
Speaker 1: a lot not everyone needs to know all of the
14:11
Speaker 1: creative points or exactly the schedule for every little thing.
14:14
Speaker 1: But I really wanted, especially on day one, I wanted
14:18
Speaker 1: everyone to be on the same page, to know what
14:21
Speaker 1: we were doing and to feel that level of comfort
14:24
Speaker 1: and teamwork because I've been on shows before where you
14:28
Speaker 1: come in day one and it's like they expect, Hey,
14:31
Speaker 1: it's the first day of filming, We're going to do
14:33
Speaker 1: an hour of ESU equipment setup, and then we're going
14:36
Speaker 1: to be filming, and it's like, I don't even know
14:38
Speaker 1: who in the heck to ask for anything. I didn't
14:41
Speaker 1: meet anyone. I don't know, you know. I walk up
14:43
Speaker 1: to somebody and ask if they know where the coffee
14:45
Speaker 1: is and it's the director, you know. It's like, so
14:48
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's really important I
14:51
Speaker 1: think to set that tone early on, and then when
14:54
Speaker 1: you do that, I think it gives you a little
14:56
Speaker 1: bit more leeway. Like I have a tendency to be
14:59
Speaker 1: a little bit more high energy, you know. I get
15:02
Speaker 1: nervous sometimes I get you know, sometimes I get my emotions.
15:06
Speaker 1: My emotions start to kind of take over at times
15:08
Speaker 1: before I check put them in check. And I always
15:10
Speaker 1: let people know. I go, hey, look, I want you
15:12
Speaker 1: to know. Any bit of me that is micromanaging is
15:16
Speaker 1: not coming out of a place of not feeling like
15:18
Speaker 1: you can do your job. It's just that I have
15:20
Speaker 1: a bad memory sometimes and as soon as things pop
15:23
Speaker 1: in my brain and I want to know if it's happening,
15:25
Speaker 1: I'll ask you, and please never take offense to that
15:29
Speaker 1: it's not coming from a play. And I always let
15:31
Speaker 1: people know if I actually am having an issue where
15:34
Speaker 1: I'm maybe not I'm feeling like things could be stepped up.
15:39
Speaker 1: I will come with you, and I will tell you
15:42
Speaker 1: I will be one hundred percent honest and open at
15:44
Speaker 1: every point with that stuff. And I think people appreciate
15:48
Speaker 1: that because they at least they know, like there's no
15:50
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be the person that
15:52
Speaker 1: they don't know where I stand, you know, where they're like, oh,
15:55
Speaker 1: I don't know how he feels about me. Like I
15:56
Speaker 1: want people to know that I have their back. I'm
15:59
Speaker 1: there to support them. If if there's a way that
16:02
Speaker 1: we can be doing it better, let's figure it out together.
16:05
Speaker 1: But if it's just me being crazy, like that's just
16:08
Speaker 1: kind of part of my personality, and I will do
16:10
Speaker 1: my best to diminish it and be respectful or you know,
16:13
Speaker 1: I and just I'll do my best to diminish it
16:15
Speaker 1: and not seem like a crazy person. But you know,
16:18
Speaker 1: we all have our moments, and I think coming from
16:21
Speaker 1: the beginning and just setting the tone of all of
16:24
Speaker 1: that on set is so important so that everybody knows
16:28
Speaker 1: where they stand in what's going on.
16:31
Speaker 5: So just just with that, you know, we're taking all
16:33
Speaker 5: that Philip, what was so? What was like the worst
16:36
Speaker 5: onset experience that you've ever had?
16:39
Speaker 1: The worst on set experience?
16:42
Speaker 5: Like like, and you don't have to get like too
16:44
Speaker 5: much into details, but maybe I'm not looking for you
16:47
Speaker 5: like name Drop Rea anything. Sometimes you know, when people
16:51
Speaker 5: hear stuff like that, they're like, oh, man, I can't
16:52
Speaker 5: tell this story. I'm like, no, no, just I want
16:54
Speaker 5: to hear more about the situation rather than the person.
16:56
Speaker 5: You know, and how how do you resolve stuff like that?
16:58
Speaker 5: Because whether it be like, you know, an issue with
17:00
Speaker 5: a person on set or a location falling through, any
17:04
Speaker 5: of that stuff, you know what I mean?
17:06
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, oh dude, locations that that locations falling
17:09
Speaker 1: through happened so much that we can't I can't even
17:12
Speaker 1: you know, it's not even a big deal anymore. I
17:14
Speaker 1: remember hearing I worked this is this is actually a cool,
17:17
Speaker 1: fun story that that I'll tell and then I'll get
17:19
Speaker 1: back to mind. But like, I worked on a project
17:21
Speaker 1: a few years ago with Wes Craven. There we go,
17:24
Speaker 1: name Drop, but no, he was such a he was
17:27
Speaker 1: such a great dude, and he was so talented and
17:29
Speaker 1: so caring. But I remember we were on set and
17:33
Speaker 1: we were shooting this project that was kind of like
17:35
Speaker 1: a horror horror film, directors competing against one another, and
17:40
Speaker 1: I remember, uh, one of they were having an argument
17:44
Speaker 1: on set, like one of the teams were trying to
17:46
Speaker 1: fire their director and replace it with another one, and
17:48
Speaker 1: they were all arguing and fighting, and I remember one
17:52
Speaker 1: one of the directors stood up and was like, you know,
17:54
Speaker 1: this is bs. I don't you know, I don't want
17:56
Speaker 1: to be a part of this anymore, Like I don't
17:58
Speaker 1: even like this isn't it's not going as planned in
18:02
Speaker 1: Wes immediately seventy and it was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa?
18:03
Speaker 1: Who told you what was going to ever go as planned?
18:06
Speaker 1: And he took it and he had a moment where
18:08
Speaker 1: he was like he took a coachable moment and was like,
18:10
Speaker 1: look when we were filming Scream, Like I guess the
18:16
Speaker 1: story goes like a few days before they got ready
18:19
Speaker 1: to film, like the day they're like seventy two hours
18:22
Speaker 1: out from filming. And if anybody knows this and I'm
18:24
Speaker 1: telling a wrong story, please correct me. But this is
18:26
Speaker 1: my way of this is my understanding of how it
18:28
Speaker 1: went down. About seventy two hours thirty six seventy two
18:31
Speaker 1: hours before they started filming the high school that had
18:35
Speaker 1: signed off on everything that they were going to film,
18:37
Speaker 1: that someone from the school board finally read the script
18:42
Speaker 1: like they had approved it, but no one read the script.
18:45
Speaker 1: And then they read it and they're like, whoa, no way,
18:48
Speaker 1: we are not allowing this to be filming our high school.
18:50
Speaker 1: And they pulled they pulled out the high school. The
18:53
Speaker 1: location pulled out like thirty six seventy two hours before
18:56
Speaker 1: they were supposed to film, and they had to scram
19:00
Speaker 1: and find a whole new whole. Like that's not an
19:03
Speaker 1: easy ask. That's not like, oh, we need another coffee
19:06
Speaker 1: shop on the street, Like that's a massive you know,
19:09
Speaker 1: anyone that's ever booked locations knows how the bigger the
19:12
Speaker 1: location though, Like those are difficult things. There's a lot
19:15
Speaker 1: of people that have to sign off on that, and
19:18
Speaker 1: so a lot of work went into it and then
19:20
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, it Just that's how
19:22
Speaker 1: quickly things can change. And if you sit around and
19:25
Speaker 1: if you get worried, if you just if you focus
19:28
Speaker 1: on problems, you're done. If that's all that you focus on.
19:32
Speaker 1: If you are a person that only sees problems, you're
19:34
Speaker 1: going to get crushed. If you can be the person
19:36
Speaker 1: that sees solutions everywhere, opportunities everywhere, you know, possibilities. Now
19:42
Speaker 1: you're now you're in your adding to the winning success.
19:44
Speaker 1: Like now you can get into a thing where you're
19:46
Speaker 1: doing well. And I think that that's you know, that's
19:50
Speaker 1: something that you have to do. Is really you know,
19:52
Speaker 1: I told this I tell this story a lot. I had.
19:54
Speaker 1: One of my first bosses is an amazing executive producer
19:59
Speaker 1: named his name is Eli Holsman, and I love the guy.
20:02
Speaker 1: He's amazing.
20:04
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
20:10
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
20:13
Speaker 1: And I told the story earlier, and it's funny that
20:16
Speaker 1: I'm telling it again. But you know, I asked him
20:18
Speaker 1: when I was early in my career. I was probably
20:19
Speaker 1: twenty three years old, and I asked him, hey man,
20:22
Speaker 1: what is you know? Is there something of advice that
20:24
Speaker 1: you can give me? And he said, you know, just
20:27
Speaker 1: always being always bring solutions, don't bring problems. You know,
20:30
Speaker 1: if the car breaks down, don't come to me and
20:33
Speaker 1: say the car broke down. Come to me and say,
20:35
Speaker 1: hey man, the car broke down. But we have option A,
20:38
Speaker 1: and we can either pay, you know, four hundred dollars
20:40
Speaker 1: to get another car out here. Option C is pay
20:43
Speaker 1: or Option B is you know, six hundred dollars to
20:46
Speaker 1: have somebody come out and fix it and it's going
20:47
Speaker 1: to take two hours. Or Option C is we just
20:50
Speaker 1: drive it into the La River and then we never
20:52
Speaker 1: we act as it if it never happened. Right, Like
20:54
Speaker 1: he always talked about solutions, solutions, solutions, and just that
20:59
Speaker 1: I'm I mean that lesson has been monumental for me because, Yeah,
21:03
Speaker 1: the first instinct is when something goes bad is to
21:05
Speaker 1: want to shut down and get sad and angry and
21:08
Speaker 1: kick kick things, and you know, you want to blame someone,
21:12
Speaker 1: Like it's just human nature. Like we're all these little
21:15
Speaker 1: kids that now have grown up pants on, and so
21:18
Speaker 1: we want to get mad. But you know, now, I
21:20
Speaker 1: think that's the biggest thing for me is just always
21:22
Speaker 1: knowing like no matter how bad it gets, there's a
21:25
Speaker 1: way to get through it. And you got you have
21:29
Speaker 1: to be able to find the solution instead of focusing
21:32
Speaker 1: on the problem.
21:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the art of problem solving.
21:36
Speaker 5: As you know I've been saying on the podcast before,
21:39
Speaker 5: is you know how do you solve a problem without
21:41
Speaker 5: creating an equal or greater problem than the one you're
21:44
Speaker 5: trying to solve. And yeah, and being a problem solver
21:47
Speaker 5: rather than a problem spotter, you know. I mean you
21:49
Speaker 5: get those people on set, man where you hire them
21:52
Speaker 5: as crew, and they come up to you and they say, hey, Philip,
21:55
Speaker 5: uh you know this this location fell through, the car
21:58
Speaker 5: got a flat tire?
21:59
Speaker 4: What we do And You're like, well, you're supposed to
22:03
Speaker 4: be here helping me?
22:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, come on. Yeah. It's always a little frustrating at
22:10
Speaker 1: times because you you know, I try to really let people,
22:15
Speaker 1: you know, you really empower. You want to empower people,
22:18
Speaker 1: you know, you want to let people know that, you
22:21
Speaker 1: know what you act as if. I remember I had
22:24
Speaker 1: somebody tell me when I was young in my career
22:25
Speaker 1: it's like, yo, you got to act as if like
22:27
Speaker 1: if you don't do this, it's not going to get done.
22:30
Speaker 1: So what would you do?
22:31
Speaker 5: You know?
22:32
Speaker 1: And really, like, I think most of us when we
22:35
Speaker 1: don't take that action, it's either a where we just
22:40
Speaker 1: don't care, right like, we don't care about it and
22:42
Speaker 1: we're super you know, degap about it. We just don't
22:45
Speaker 1: care anymore, or we're afraid, and we're afraid we'll make
22:48
Speaker 1: the wrong decision and we want somebody to back us up,
22:50
Speaker 1: and we're you know, or so it's like almost you know,
22:53
Speaker 1: I remember somebody, Uh I read it in a book once. Uh,
22:56
Speaker 1: Brendan Bouchard had this quote and it was like when
22:58
Speaker 1: action is required and a person doesn't act, at best,
23:04
Speaker 1: they're lazy and at the worst, they're a coward. And
23:08
Speaker 1: it's like, man, like, I could use that for any life,
23:12
Speaker 1: but to make that to how do we relate that
23:15
Speaker 1: to set? It's like there are those times where it's
23:17
Speaker 1: like if you're not willing to make a decision, you know,
23:21
Speaker 1: you're being lazy or you're being a coward. And I've
23:24
Speaker 1: had to do that with myself many times, and especially
23:27
Speaker 1: as much as I tried not to be the guy
23:29
Speaker 1: that like hangs on money or finances and things like that,
23:32
Speaker 1: but there are times where I've stopped and been like, yo, dude,
23:36
Speaker 1: they paying you a decent amount of money to make
23:38
Speaker 1: these decisions, like do it, like figure it out? Like
23:41
Speaker 1: this is on you, like you can't just you know,
23:44
Speaker 1: Like for me, it's like you're not a pa anymore.
23:46
Speaker 1: You don't get to just you know, sit there and yeah,
23:49
Speaker 1: and do exactly what you're told. Like as a PA,
23:51
Speaker 1: that's what it is. Being a PA production assistant is
23:55
Speaker 1: all about. Be quiet, be friendly, smile, do everything that's
24:00
Speaker 1: you and kind of you know, stay out of the way,
24:02
Speaker 1: but be there and help as much as you're an
24:04
Speaker 1: extra set of hands. When you start producing projects and
24:07
Speaker 1: directing projects and taking on greater responsibility, and the money
24:11
Speaker 1: is there and you're getting paid, and like you have
24:14
Speaker 1: to be able to make a decision, you know. And
24:16
Speaker 1: it's like by sitting by and doing nothing or only,
24:19
Speaker 1: like you said, being the person that only brings up problems,
24:23
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to be the person that gets
24:26
Speaker 1: hired back or that gets a reputation of being the
24:29
Speaker 1: guy who can fix problems. And it's like if you
24:32
Speaker 1: can be someone that fixes problems or sees problems and
24:35
Speaker 1: fixes them before they even happen, you know, like every
24:38
Speaker 1: firefighter would love to be there moments before the fire
24:41
Speaker 1: gets set, you know, because once it gets out of hand,
24:45
Speaker 1: then it's a lot of work. It's like, if you
24:47
Speaker 1: can be the person that notices and knows how to
24:49
Speaker 1: fix things early on before it becomes this raging you
24:53
Speaker 1: know fire, then you're gonna keep getting work, and that's
24:56
Speaker 1: what it comes out. You're gonna keep getting work, and
24:58
Speaker 1: you're gonna make projects more fun and enjoyable to work on. Yeah,
25:03
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, your your point was great, and then
25:06
Speaker 1: I decided to talk for fifteen minutes.
25:08
Speaker 4: So no, no, it's all good. It's all good, Philip.
25:11
Speaker 5: And I want to ask you too about how you know,
25:13
Speaker 5: how you know you got started in all this, because
25:15
Speaker 5: you know, you mentioned Wes Craven, you mentioned working with
25:19
Speaker 5: Phil Lot, So I wanted to ask you know, you
25:22
Speaker 5: grew up in Michigan and you moved out to l A.
25:25
Speaker 5: You know, so so at what age did you decide,
25:27
Speaker 5: you know, to move out to la Uh.
25:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was about nine, and you know, I'm
25:33
Speaker 1: that kid, dude. I'm I grew up ten minutes from
25:35
Speaker 1: downtown Detroit, on the side just outside of Southwest Detroit.
25:38
Speaker 1: And I've always been that that Midwest kid, just in
25:42
Speaker 1: love with everything, movies, everything California. You know, I joke
25:47
Speaker 1: that I wanted to be I wanted to live the
25:50
Speaker 1: movie Clueless like I legit, wanted to be like that
25:54
Speaker 1: guy I wanted to you know, I grew up and
25:55
Speaker 1: watching that movie with my sister, and I just loved it.
25:58
Speaker 1: And you know, I I wrote a paper when I
26:01
Speaker 1: was like thirteen about moving to California, and so I
26:04
Speaker 1: think that dream has always been there. But for me,
26:05
Speaker 1: you know, I got you know, media productions and creating,
26:08
Speaker 1: and you know, I did a little bit of theater
26:10
Speaker 1: when I was younger, and so I was just always
26:13
Speaker 1: around creating entertainment. And so when I went I went
26:17
Speaker 1: to Michigan State University after I graduated from high school,
26:20
Speaker 1: and you know, went out started you know, did the
26:23
Speaker 1: business thing for a while, because obviously I was terrified
26:25
Speaker 1: of putting all my eggs in one basket of entertainment.
26:28
Speaker 1: But I moved. I ended up messing up my GPA
26:32
Speaker 1: pretty pretty bad. I joined a fraternity, started drinking and partying,
26:36
Speaker 1: and that became a whole nother that's a whole nother
26:39
Speaker 1: story for a different podcast. And but you know what,
26:43
Speaker 1: things kind of you know, ended up where I screwed
26:45
Speaker 1: my GPA up so much. At Michigan State that I
26:48
Speaker 1: was going to it was going to take me a
26:50
Speaker 1: few more semesters to get into the business school. So
26:52
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, I had already started taking
26:54
Speaker 1: my film classes, my film and TV and in radio,
26:57
Speaker 1: and I loved that stuff and that was where I
26:59
Speaker 1: felt like I really came live and really enjoyed it.
27:01
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to go after this and
27:02
Speaker 1: see what I can do, and you know, I was.
27:04
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to be able to do a
27:06
Speaker 1: couple of internships and really get some things finished, and
27:09
Speaker 1: I was able to finish college's semester early at State
27:12
Speaker 1: and was getting ready to move out to La. Excuse me,
27:17
Speaker 1: I was getting, you know, getting ready to move out
27:18
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles, and eleven days before I moved to LA,
27:21
Speaker 1: I got popped for DUI and it drastically affected my
27:25
Speaker 1: ability to move to California. So it took me a
27:27
Speaker 1: year to kind of get everything square, you know, squared
27:30
Speaker 1: away with the courts and kind of my path with
27:33
Speaker 1: you know, alcohol abuse and all that stuff. That's a
27:35
Speaker 1: whole nother story. But so I ended up going to
27:40
Speaker 1: I stayed in Michigan for a little while, I worked
27:41
Speaker 1: at a radio station, and then when I was twenty three,
27:47
Speaker 1: I was twenty three is when I moved out to
27:49
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. I had never been west of Wisconsin. I
27:52
Speaker 1: didn't really know anyone. There were a couple of kids
27:55
Speaker 1: that went from my high school that were, you know,
27:57
Speaker 1: five or six years older. So I did have one
28:00
Speaker 1: or two people that I could at least kind of
28:01
Speaker 1: ask some sort of advice on. But I really didn't
28:04
Speaker 1: know anything. I didn't know what I was doing, didn't
28:06
Speaker 1: really even know if I wanted to do film TV.
28:09
Speaker 1: I was still in the mindset that you know, twenty
28:12
Speaker 1: people got in a room and came up with an
28:14
Speaker 1: idea and then they worked into you know, made it.
28:16
Speaker 1: Like I didn't understand the industry at all. I did
28:19
Speaker 1: not understand how segmented things were. I didn't know how
28:23
Speaker 1: different it was to work in TV versus you know,
28:26
Speaker 1: TV versus commercial versus movies. I didn't even know reality TV. Like,
28:31
Speaker 1: I didn't even really know what reality TV was. You know,
28:34
Speaker 1: I'd seen The Real World and some of that stuff,
28:37
Speaker 1: but I didn't even realize how different and segmented a
28:40
Speaker 1: lot of the industry was. So I get to California
28:44
Speaker 1: and I move out. I don't know what in the
28:46
Speaker 1: hell I'm doing. I get a job working at vitamin Shop.
28:48
Speaker 1: I get a job working at pacsun. I was doing
28:52
Speaker 1: extra work I was doing. You know, I've been a
28:54
Speaker 1: DJ since I was seventeen, so I was djaying, and
28:58
Speaker 1: I'm just doing all this stuff. I'm doing clear work
29:00
Speaker 1: in office buildings and just trying anything to just make
29:04
Speaker 1: rent and make it work. And I'm you know, I'm
29:06
Speaker 1: sitting here one day. I remember calling my dad and
29:08
Speaker 1: I'm like, I have I've got a four year degree
29:11
Speaker 1: from a big ten university and I'm sitting here folding
29:15
Speaker 1: little kids board shorts and selling old women met a
29:18
Speaker 1: musial like what is going on in my life? Like
29:20
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get hired. And this was right in
29:23
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, right in the middle of the
29:25
Speaker 1: writers strike out here in Los Angeles. So work was tough,
29:29
Speaker 1: and I remember going I would just go door to
29:32
Speaker 1: door at places, and I would go door to door
29:33
Speaker 1: at production companies trying to meet them. I'd go to work,
29:36
Speaker 1: I'd go to the gym, I'd go play basketball, and
29:39
Speaker 1: then I would rinse and repeat. And that was my
29:41
Speaker 1: cycle of what I would do. And I wish I
29:43
Speaker 1: could tell you that one of those production companies called
29:46
Speaker 1: and wanted to hire me. I wish I could say
29:48
Speaker 1: that one of my job interviews went well, I met
29:51
Speaker 1: a guy playing basketball and I was having a really
29:55
Speaker 1: good game and I was pissing them off because I
29:59
Speaker 1: kept scoring.
30:01
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
30:07
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
30:10
Speaker 1: So we were battling back and forth, back and forth,
30:12
Speaker 1: back and forth. The game ends, we start talking. He
30:15
Speaker 1: ends up being a Midwest kid. We start talking a
30:18
Speaker 1: little bit. He's getting ready to get promoted as soon
30:21
Speaker 1: as he found somebody to take his assistant job, and
30:27
Speaker 1: he brings me into interview. I get the interview and
30:30
Speaker 1: I start, and that was my very first job, was
30:34
Speaker 1: from a guy working or playing basketball at the park.
30:38
Speaker 1: And that guy his name is Kevin Bartel. He's a
30:41
Speaker 1: great friend of mine still. He runs a production company
30:44
Speaker 1: now here in Los Angeles, and you know, he's such
30:47
Speaker 1: a rock star. He's amazing, and like we met playing basketball,
30:51
Speaker 1: and like that's how it was for me and I started.
30:54
Speaker 1: I got that first job, and the job was me
30:56
Speaker 1: taking the assistant job for the guy Eli that I
30:58
Speaker 1: spoke about earlier. And you know the first show we
31:01
Speaker 1: were doing when I started, they were they had just
31:04
Speaker 1: finished post on the first episode the first season of
31:09
Speaker 1: a show called Undercover Boss on CBS and which was
31:13
Speaker 1: a massive show that at the time no one had
31:16
Speaker 1: heard of. So I was like working at a production
31:17
Speaker 1: company no one had heard of, on a show no
31:19
Speaker 1: one had ever heard of. And then it blew up
31:22
Speaker 1: and it was like that was my first job. I
31:24
Speaker 1: just got, you know. But the thing I always tell kids, like,
31:27
Speaker 1: I'll try to mentor kids from Michigan State and I go, hey, look,
31:30
Speaker 1: I can't tell you to go play basketball every day
31:33
Speaker 1: and that's where it's going to be. But what I
31:35
Speaker 1: can say is if if it wouldn't have been if
31:38
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been Kevin, if I wouldn't have met
31:41
Speaker 1: Kevin on the basketball court, I would have met somebody
31:45
Speaker 1: at the gym, or I would have met someone at
31:49
Speaker 1: an alumni event or one of those production companies I
31:52
Speaker 1: would have win would have eventually worked out. It's like
31:55
Speaker 1: you don't know, you don't always know what path it's
31:58
Speaker 1: going to open. You don't know what door is gonna open.
32:01
Speaker 1: But that's why you just bang on a ton of
32:04
Speaker 1: doors and you just you know. I always tell people
32:06
Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is just let people
32:08
Speaker 1: know what you want to do, you know, let them
32:11
Speaker 1: know that you're just hungry and ready and you don't know. Yeah, hey,
32:14
Speaker 1: i don't have a ton of experience, but I'm excited
32:16
Speaker 1: to learn. I'm ready to get into it. How do
32:19
Speaker 1: we make this whole thing happen? I'm in and I
32:22
Speaker 1: think that that the attitude. I don't know when I
32:24
Speaker 1: hire pas, I hire on attitudes more than I hire
32:27
Speaker 1: on your experience, you know, like what's your resume? Gonna
32:30
Speaker 1: tell me what that you are really good at? Like
32:34
Speaker 1: getting water like that, or that you're gonna get coffee
32:37
Speaker 1: or you can lift fifty pounds over your head like what.
32:40
Speaker 1: It's more about your your personality and how you like.
32:44
Speaker 1: What do I see out of you? Are you hungry,
32:46
Speaker 1: do you want to learn? Are you ready to really
32:48
Speaker 1: get in this thing? Or you just like, ah, I'm
32:51
Speaker 1: in la whatever, Like you know, my buddy, My buddy
32:54
Speaker 1: works on the show, so I guess I can work here.
32:56
Speaker 1: Like I want people that are excited, you know, because
32:59
Speaker 1: I know how I was when I was starting out.
33:02
Speaker 1: I know how eager and excited I was, so yeah,
33:05
Speaker 1: maybe selfishly, like I want to hire that. I want
33:07
Speaker 1: to hire you know, you know, people that are excited
33:11
Speaker 1: to be around this because I love it, you know,
33:14
Speaker 1: I love it so much. I want to be around
33:16
Speaker 1: other people that love it. And it's like there's so
33:18
Speaker 1: many people that do care and want to make entertainment
33:22
Speaker 1: and they're passionate about it that like, I don't want
33:24
Speaker 1: to hire people that are just there looking at it
33:26
Speaker 1: as a paycheck, you know.
33:28
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah you can. You can teach somebody how to
33:30
Speaker 5: do a job, but you can't teach them how to
33:31
Speaker 5: be a good person, totally. Yeah, which which is something
33:35
Speaker 5: I've learned too, because I made the mistake one time.
33:37
Speaker 4: Phil is Shreko. You feel a Philip wish you prefer.
33:40
Speaker 1: Hey, whatever feels right, man, I jump back into you
33:43
Speaker 1: know what. People ask me that all the time, and
33:45
Speaker 1: I joke like when I hit thirty, I was like,
33:47
Speaker 1: I guess I'm Philip now, you know. Or somebody somebody
33:50
Speaker 1: told me the other day on set. They were like,
33:52
Speaker 1: well once somebody like once someone is your superior, you
33:55
Speaker 1: call them Philip. And I go, I don't know how
33:56
Speaker 1: this is going, Like I or I'll say, if you're
33:59
Speaker 1: from the UK, you have to call me Philip because
34:01
Speaker 1: it just sounds better in that accent. But no, man,
34:04
Speaker 1: phil Philip, whatever is easiest. Uh whatever works, man, It's
34:07
Speaker 1: all good.
34:08
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, definitely, Phillip sounds better with a British accent,
34:11
Speaker 5: I will admit that. But everything sounds better with the
34:14
Speaker 5: British accent.
34:15
Speaker 3: Uh So.
34:17
Speaker 4: On set, you know. And I have everyone call me.
34:19
Speaker 5: I have everyone call me Bullus because that's everything. All
34:22
Speaker 5: my friends call me Bullish everywhere, and and.
34:26
Speaker 4: They're just like Bullis. I'm like, yeah, just call me Bullis.
34:28
Speaker 4: Don't call me Dave or David. Uh that's fine, and
34:31
Speaker 4: just call me Bullus.
34:32
Speaker 1: But because it's a it's a strong name, you know
34:35
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, it's a it's a great it's
34:37
Speaker 1: a great last name. What's the what's the background, what's
34:39
Speaker 1: the what's your family's heritage?
34:41
Speaker 5: Uh So, on my mom's side, it's uh Swedish and Irish,
34:51
Speaker 5: and on my dad's side, it's uh English, particularly from Wales,
34:57
Speaker 5: and that's actually where the last name comes from. By
34:58
Speaker 5: the way, It's English means someone who tends bulls. And
35:03
Speaker 5: and if you can believe it or not, I don't
35:05
Speaker 5: know if you've ever seen me, but I actually have
35:07
Speaker 5: a My my dad's grandmother was one hundred percent Cherokee
35:13
Speaker 5: Native American and so if you look at me, I
35:16
Speaker 5: look like the whitest guy on the planet. So but
35:18
Speaker 5: like technically speaking, I'm like ten to fifteen percent Cherokee.
35:22
Speaker 5: Oh no way, Yeah, but I don't look like it
35:24
Speaker 5: at all. I think the I look much like an
35:27
Speaker 5: Irish English guy.
35:31
Speaker 1: That's cool, man. I love that. I always love I
35:33
Speaker 1: don't know why. I'm always fascinated with with that type
35:36
Speaker 1: of stuff, like where, you know, like heritage and things
35:40
Speaker 1: like that. I'm I'm fifty percent. I'm fifty percent. Well,
35:44
Speaker 1: we're all kind of a mix of things, but I
35:46
Speaker 1: only claim too and uh so, yeah, I'm I'm Polish
35:49
Speaker 1: and I'm Romanian and on my uh this this past year,
35:53
Speaker 1: I took a trip and I did a little mini
35:56
Speaker 1: DJ tour through Europe. But while I was doing that,
35:58
Speaker 1: I also got a chance to do I went to
36:02
Speaker 1: meet some family in Poland for the first time in Warsaw, Poland,
36:05
Speaker 1: met some cousins and got to meet them for the
36:08
Speaker 1: first time in person. And then I went to Romania
36:12
Speaker 1: and I went to the little villages, the two little
36:14
Speaker 1: villages in Transylvania, which I guess I didn't even realize
36:17
Speaker 1: that was a real place. I kind of thought it
36:19
Speaker 1: was just made up, But so I went to Transylvania,
36:22
Speaker 1: where my great grandparents were born and raised before they
36:24
Speaker 1: moved to the US, and man, it was just cool, Like,
36:27
Speaker 1: you know, I had one of those moments where, you
36:29
Speaker 1: know what, I was getting all emotional, you know, just
36:31
Speaker 1: because I had been there. You know, I had been
36:33
Speaker 1: on the road for like, you know, three weeks, four weeks,
36:36
Speaker 1: and I'm on the road that connected the two little villages,
36:40
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like I
36:42
Speaker 1: can you know, for the first time in my life,
36:45
Speaker 1: like my great grandparents no longer seemed like these old
36:47
Speaker 1: dead people, but they were these like oh, man, I
36:50
Speaker 1: can picture the like the nineteen year old version of
36:52
Speaker 1: my or the nineteen year old great grandpa grandfather walking
36:56
Speaker 1: this road to go see this woman he just met,
36:59
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know, it gave me such a
37:01
Speaker 1: like I love that history and it's just really it's
37:05
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess I'm getting I'm getting more
37:07
Speaker 1: emotional in my as I'm getting older. I don't know,
37:09
Speaker 1: but it which is really cool. I love I love
37:11
Speaker 1: that idea of like understanding where where we come from
37:14
Speaker 1: and in the history of our families and whatnot. We've
37:17
Speaker 1: totally gotten off the topic of production. But uh, you know,
37:19
Speaker 1: that's what happens with me sometimes.
37:21
Speaker 4: No, No, it's all good. I have a tendency to
37:23
Speaker 4: do that to people.
37:24
Speaker 5: People come on this podcast all the time, Philip and
37:26
Speaker 5: they're just like, Dave, I just have a tendency to
37:28
Speaker 5: ramble when I'm talking to you. I don't know what
37:30
Speaker 5: it is.
37:30
Speaker 4: I go, that's a good sign. I take that as
37:34
Speaker 4: a compliment, a very high compliment.
37:36
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah.
37:37
Speaker 4: But but yeah, you know, you always want to know
37:39
Speaker 4: where you come from eventually, you know.
37:40
Speaker 5: And it's a funny story because I actually was going
37:43
Speaker 5: to reach out to some of my relatives in Wales
37:47
Speaker 5: and then I was just watching this British show called
37:49
Speaker 5: Black Books, and Black Books was kind of like it
37:53
Speaker 5: wasn't really a hit, but it was. It was a
37:54
Speaker 5: fantastic show. And this one character named Fran wants to
37:59
Speaker 5: get in touch with all her relatives, right. She's like,
38:01
Speaker 5: I've never seen these people before. I just want to,
38:04
Speaker 5: you know, connect with my family. And all they did
38:07
Speaker 5: was they basically used her as like some kind of
38:09
Speaker 5: like pack mule and they were like, oh, Wow.
38:11
Speaker 4: They were like, Oh, you have a car, we need
38:13
Speaker 4: to ride somewhere.
38:14
Speaker 5: All you have money, we need some money. Oh you
38:16
Speaker 5: have a house, we need to move in. It's like
38:18
Speaker 5: and she goes, I'm so sorry I ever did this.
38:19
Speaker 5: And I just kind of thought to myself, what if
38:21
Speaker 5: I reached out to some relatives and it's all they
38:23
Speaker 5: did was basically try to like use me for anything
38:26
Speaker 5: they could.
38:27
Speaker 1: Oh, man, I think it's worth risking. You never know,
38:30
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's crazy. That would be well, man, what's well,
38:33
Speaker 1: what's the one show The Sneaky Peete that's on? What
38:38
Speaker 1: is that on Netflix or on I don't know what
38:41
Speaker 1: channel is on, but it's that idea. Rabisi is the
38:45
Speaker 1: lead and is Yeah, that idea that he, you know,
38:49
Speaker 1: came in and he convinces this family that he's someone else.
38:53
Speaker 1: And that's that was scripted, but that was actually there
38:55
Speaker 1: was a show. I don't know if you ever saw it.
38:57
Speaker 1: My buddy Phil Watt. It's funny, we bring him up.
38:59
Speaker 1: He actually did a He did a documentary a few
39:02
Speaker 1: years ago called Impostor and if you guys haven't seen it,
39:05
Speaker 1: it's it is fascinating and it's about this guy who
39:10
Speaker 1: you know, convinces this family that he is this missing
39:14
Speaker 1: child from years and years and years ago, and he
39:18
Speaker 1: he gets into this family and it's the whole story
39:23
Speaker 1: of him, like infiltrating their lives and why they think
39:27
Speaker 1: that they wanted. Oh man, it's just it's really cool,
39:30
Speaker 1: like you're watching it, you know. I love documentaries that
39:33
Speaker 1: I watch and I go, this is There's no way
39:36
Speaker 1: this is real, you know, like how did this happen?
39:40
Speaker 1: Like I think, you know, the two strongest or I'm
39:43
Speaker 1: sure there's many more. I'm you know, I'm oversimplifying, but
39:46
Speaker 1: like when I watched documentaries, the two amazing things that
39:49
Speaker 1: I always notice is like, hey, if I'm sitting there
39:52
Speaker 1: and I'm going, whoa, there's no way this is real.
39:55
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for them to say this is bullshit. How
39:57
Speaker 1: is this even possible.
40:00
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
40:06
Speaker 3: and now back to the show that always catches my attention.
40:11
Speaker 1: And then I think it's so amazing in documentaries when
40:14
Speaker 1: it's totally just right time, right you know, right time,
40:17
Speaker 1: right place. You know, those documentaries that start out about
40:20
Speaker 1: one thing and then something crazy happens just by chance
40:25
Speaker 1: in the time that they were filming, and then it's
40:27
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you're you're capturing all
40:29
Speaker 1: these other things, like have you have you seen have
40:32
Speaker 1: you been watching Flint Town on Netflix at all? No?
40:36
Speaker 4: I haven't so Flint Town.
40:38
Speaker 1: It's all about Flint and obviously the Flint water crisis
40:41
Speaker 1: and all of those things. But you know, the fascinating
40:43
Speaker 1: thing was just they were there when they went there
40:47
Speaker 1: to kind of do the Flint water crisis and what
40:49
Speaker 1: was happening in Flint with the water, and then but
40:53
Speaker 1: they were embedded with like the police force, the Flint
40:55
Speaker 1: Police Force, and then while they're there was when we
40:58
Speaker 1: started having all of these all of these cases coming
41:01
Speaker 1: up about police brutality and you know, some of the
41:04
Speaker 1: deaths and things like that, and so it was so
41:06
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to be there documenting police
41:10
Speaker 1: officers as they are experiencing and as they're learning about
41:14
Speaker 1: these things and seeing their reactions and then being able
41:17
Speaker 1: to compare that to how we were reacting as you know,
41:20
Speaker 1: as as people in society. It was just it really
41:24
Speaker 1: was fascinating because it's one of those things where you're like,
41:27
Speaker 1: they weren't late to the story you know, like they
41:29
Speaker 1: weren't trying to catch up, like they were catching it
41:32
Speaker 1: as it was happening. And I think that's what makes
41:35
Speaker 1: I don't know, for me, that's what makes a lot
41:36
Speaker 1: of that stuff really really exciting.
41:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's I love movies and TV shows were
41:44
Speaker 5: you know, characters like a pathological liar, like like American Psycho.
41:48
Speaker 5: That that's a good example, you know, even stuff like
41:53
Speaker 5: you know, some of the other stuff that's come out
41:54
Speaker 5: where you just find like the character is just a
41:56
Speaker 5: you know, a just a complete, you know, pathological or
42:00
Speaker 5: compulsive liar. And yeah, there's a TV show what was
42:03
Speaker 5: it called? It wasn't I want to say firefly, but
42:05
Speaker 5: that wasn't right. But there was a TV show where
42:07
Speaker 5: the the character basically took the role of a of
42:12
Speaker 5: a of a sheriff. He took over his identity. It's Chris.
42:16
Speaker 4: What the hell is that? I forget it? But uh,
42:18
Speaker 4: basically he and the Banshee, that's what it's called banshee.
42:21
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, So so he.
42:24
Speaker 5: Took over his whole life and basically said I'm the
42:26
Speaker 5: new sheriff and this and that. So that that that uh,
42:29
Speaker 5: that was actually pretty cool. Uh uh, you know, pretty
42:31
Speaker 5: good as well. But you know a lot of these
42:34
Speaker 5: shows now there's so many different channels and stuff like that.
42:37
Speaker 5: There's YouTube, there's Netflix, the's Hulu, there's all this, all
42:39
Speaker 5: these channels. You know, this is the golden age of TV,
42:43
Speaker 5: but it's also incredibly segregated on all these different channels.
42:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's crazy. There's so much. There's so much
42:51
Speaker 1: going on, and I think it's you know, we joke
42:54
Speaker 1: and we've been joking for the last couple of years.
42:56
Speaker 1: Like anybody that tells you they know what's going on
42:58
Speaker 1: is full of shit.
43:01
Speaker 4: But what William Gold is that?
43:02
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, I mean it's it's it's tough, man, I
43:06
Speaker 1: mean it's you know, I will say, like I've I've
43:08
Speaker 1: been lucky to work on on some you know, some
43:10
Speaker 1: Netflix shows and some Tube Bread shows. We're actually I'm
43:14
Speaker 1: really excited. I'm gonna humble brag here for a second.
43:17
Speaker 1: One of the shows that I that I helped produce,
43:19
Speaker 1: uh is up for a Daytime Emmy right now. So
43:22
Speaker 1: we find out at the end of the month if
43:24
Speaker 1: we won this Daytime Emmy, which would be just really
43:26
Speaker 1: cool to be you know, and it's for outstanding educational programming.
43:31
Speaker 1: So it's like to be able to We did a
43:32
Speaker 1: show called Minefield, which was all about science and psychology
43:36
Speaker 1: with a with a great guy named Michael Stevens who
43:38
Speaker 1: runs a YouTube channel called v Sauce, and it was
43:41
Speaker 1: like to be able to create a show that is
43:45
Speaker 1: educational and entertaining where you know that you're to know
43:49
Speaker 1: that you're reaching kids and people in general, but he has,
43:52
Speaker 1: you know, a younger audience. Like to know you're being
43:55
Speaker 1: able to reach and educate kids that are hungry to learn.
43:59
Speaker 3: You know.
43:59
Speaker 1: I think there's this there's this stereotype that kids these
44:02
Speaker 1: days don't want to learn and all they want to
44:04
Speaker 1: do is play on their social media. And I mean
44:06
Speaker 1: our channel shows and there's a lot of there's a
44:09
Speaker 1: lot of educational programming out there on YouTube that kids
44:14
Speaker 1: can't get enough of. And I think it's really encouraging
44:17
Speaker 1: to see so many kids that are interested in science
44:20
Speaker 1: and interested in math and they want to learn and
44:22
Speaker 1: they want to figure things out in psychology, and I
44:26
Speaker 1: think it's really it's really special. So I digress. But yeah,
44:31
Speaker 1: with all of the networks, it's hard, man, it's really
44:34
Speaker 1: hard to know what's going to survive, you know, because
44:39
Speaker 1: you know the Internet has created a nice, beautiful new
44:43
Speaker 1: place where it doesn't need to be twenty two minutes exactly,
44:47
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be forty four. You don't have
44:49
Speaker 1: to have the act breakdown at the exact spot for
44:51
Speaker 1: the commercial break you don't need to you know, networks,
44:55
Speaker 1: you know online they don't have to guarantee twenty four
44:59
Speaker 1: hours of programming every single day like a lot of
45:01
Speaker 1: the stuff do on cable. So it's opening the doors
45:04
Speaker 1: for some flexibility. And there's gonna be a lot of
45:08
Speaker 1: shake up, and there's gonna be some winners, and there's
45:10
Speaker 1: gonna be some losers, and it's gonna take a little
45:14
Speaker 1: bit more time for us to figure out how everything
45:16
Speaker 1: is gonna shake out. But I think there's it's like
45:21
Speaker 1: anything right, like you can either look at the problem
45:24
Speaker 1: of it or you get out in front of it
45:26
Speaker 1: and see the possibilities and the opportunities and know that
45:30
Speaker 1: we're at a space now where you want if you
45:33
Speaker 1: want to create something, if you really want to create something,
45:37
Speaker 1: there's no excuse, there's really no excuse for not creating
45:41
Speaker 1: in this day and age, with the accessibility to cameras,
45:45
Speaker 1: the accessibility to editing to music. If you want to
45:50
Speaker 1: be there is no there now. It's difficult to be seen.
45:54
Speaker 1: That's true. It's there's a lot of clutter, there's a
45:56
Speaker 1: lot of noise. It is not the easiest thing in
45:59
Speaker 1: the world to get attention. But if you have are
46:01
Speaker 1: if you're feeling, if you have creativity inside of you
46:05
Speaker 1: that you want to get out that you don't and
46:08
Speaker 1: you feel like you don't have the resources, you are
46:11
Speaker 1: not utilizing your resources because there is so much to
46:16
Speaker 1: get out there and if you want to be creative,
46:18
Speaker 1: there's no excuse for not being creative in this day
46:20
Speaker 1: and age.
46:21
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like, hey man, this podcast is something I
46:24
Speaker 5: started to, uh, just to be creative. You know, I
46:27
Speaker 5: started this a few years ago just to be creative.
46:30
Speaker 5: And the bowrier at the entry to starting a podcast is.
46:33
Speaker 4: Literally so low.
46:34
Speaker 1: Now you can so low.
46:35
Speaker 5: You could start one on your phone with with like
46:38
Speaker 5: a pod, with the podbeing app, which is why why
46:40
Speaker 5: my host they actually, if you launch the app, you
46:42
Speaker 5: can start recording a podcast even through the app, so
46:45
Speaker 5: don't even need another app for that, and you can
46:48
Speaker 5: edit it right there and then upload it and there
46:49
Speaker 5: you go.
46:51
Speaker 1: Which and I think that's why. That's why, you know,
46:55
Speaker 1: as we start to wrap up here and we bring
46:57
Speaker 1: it back home, I think that's why the power of
47:01
Speaker 1: the story is so important because now where you do
47:06
Speaker 1: have a lot of competition, because the barriers of entry
47:09
Speaker 1: into a YouTube channel, into a podcast, into a short film,
47:14
Speaker 1: the barriers of entry are so low, but people still
47:19
Speaker 1: have a high expectation of content. So if you are making,
47:24
Speaker 1: you know, you can buy a two hundred dollars gimbal
47:27
Speaker 1: for your iPhone that you already have in your pocket,
47:30
Speaker 1: and you can buy a little recording device for the audio,
47:32
Speaker 1: and you can make a pretty damn good video for
47:36
Speaker 1: three hundred bucks. If you've got the right people that
47:38
Speaker 1: are willing to help and work on it, and then
47:39
Speaker 1: you edit, you can do some really great stuff. But
47:44
Speaker 1: if you do not have a story, if you don't
47:47
Speaker 1: have a compelling reason why anyone should even listen or
47:52
Speaker 1: watch or care about your project, it's going to be
47:56
Speaker 1: very difficult to get any type of visibility with it.
48:01
Speaker 1: So I think that's why I you know, a lot
48:03
Speaker 1: of the kids, and I see that now a lot
48:06
Speaker 1: of kids coming out of school or certain schools or whatever.
48:08
Speaker 1: They they'll send me their stuff, and I'm like, cool,
48:12
Speaker 1: it looks great. You understand that if you shoot it
48:15
Speaker 1: in high speed and you're shooting sixty one hundred and
48:18
Speaker 1: twenty frames per second and you slow it down behind
48:21
Speaker 1: some very epic feeling, motivational music, that it's gonna look
48:26
Speaker 1: cool and look cinematic. Yes, you nailed that. But what
48:31
Speaker 1: do you want me to do now? You know? What
48:34
Speaker 1: is your call to action? Do you want me to
48:37
Speaker 1: open my wallet and pay you money? Do you want
48:40
Speaker 1: me to call my mother and tell her I love
48:42
Speaker 1: her because I haven't talked to her. Do you want
48:44
Speaker 1: me to cry and miss an X? What in the
48:46
Speaker 1: hell do you want me to feel now? And I
48:49
Speaker 1: think that that is something that we as storytellers, as
48:53
Speaker 1: filmmakers at television, show creators, podcasters, we have to understand,
48:58
Speaker 1: like what is it that we want to do?
49:00
Speaker 5: What?
49:00
Speaker 1: How are we serving? That's what I'll say, How are
49:03
Speaker 1: we serving our viewer? And if we don't have an
49:07
Speaker 1: answer for that, if we don't know what our viewer
49:10
Speaker 1: is going to get out of what we're giving them,
49:12
Speaker 1: then we probably don't have a strong product, you know.
49:15
Speaker 1: And it's and then we've just we've we've created we've
49:19
Speaker 1: created content that doesn't that's never going to really resonate
49:23
Speaker 1: with anybody because it we didn't think about who was
49:26
Speaker 1: going to consume it. We didn't even care. Uh So,
49:29
Speaker 1: I think now nowadays we have to be that much
49:32
Speaker 1: more disciplined and intentional about understanding what we want to
49:39
Speaker 1: create and who we want to create it for, and
49:42
Speaker 1: then how are we going to do it with a great,
49:44
Speaker 1: powerful story and then executing that because it's not it's
49:49
Speaker 1: just not enough anymore to just throw it up online
49:52
Speaker 1: and hope it gets found.
49:53
Speaker 3: You know, we'll be right back after a word from
49:57
Speaker 3: our sponsor and now back to the show.
50:04
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very true.
50:06
Speaker 5: I think those days of kind of like throwing that
50:08
Speaker 5: hell Mary Passer or are pretty much I don't want
50:11
Speaker 5: to say they're over. I don't want to be definitive,
50:13
Speaker 5: but it's a lot harder now because because there's just
50:17
Speaker 5: there's just so much content being made, you know, and
50:19
Speaker 5: there's just so much stuff being on there that the
50:22
Speaker 5: probability of anything like that happening is just so low
50:25
Speaker 5: now it's probably less than one percent. But uh, you know,
50:28
Speaker 5: I know where we're winding down, phil So, just in closing,
50:31
Speaker 5: is there anything that you wanted to wanted to say
50:34
Speaker 5: to sort of put a period at the end of
50:35
Speaker 5: this whole conversation.
50:38
Speaker 1: You know, I guess the first thing I'll you know,
50:40
Speaker 1: the the annoying social media plug I'll say. You know,
50:44
Speaker 1: you guys can find me on on you know, Facebook, Instagram,
50:46
Speaker 1: all that stuff. At Phillip andrew La. I have an
50:51
Speaker 1: email account. I would love for you guys to email
50:52
Speaker 1: me if you have any specific questions, whether that's wanting
50:56
Speaker 1: to work together on a project or if you're if
50:58
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, then you're young and you're still
50:59
Speaker 1: in school and you just want some advice. I'm always
51:02
Speaker 1: willing to help as much as possible, so reach out.
51:05
Speaker 1: It's Philip andrew La at gmail dot com. So please
51:10
Speaker 1: connect with me. I'd love to. I would love to
51:12
Speaker 1: talk with you guys any way that I can and
51:14
Speaker 1: help out anyway. I think my last you know, what
51:17
Speaker 1: would be my what would be my my takeaway from
51:21
Speaker 1: all of this is, you know, it's if you're listening
51:27
Speaker 1: to this in your you know, I think we already
51:29
Speaker 1: talked about some stuff for people that are younger in
51:32
Speaker 1: their careers about getting started and how to do that,
51:35
Speaker 1: and we talked a lot about that. If you're listening
51:37
Speaker 1: to this and you're interested in production or TV or
51:41
Speaker 1: film or podcasting or any any type of that creative stuff,
51:45
Speaker 1: and you are struggling to either get things going, or
51:50
Speaker 1: maybe your career isn't exactly where you want it to be,
51:53
Speaker 1: or you want to be doing more. You know, I
51:55
Speaker 1: always love this phrase. You know, it's like it's never
51:58
Speaker 1: too late to be what you might have been. And
52:00
Speaker 1: we get caught up in our heads about where we're
52:03
Speaker 1: supposed to be in life and what success we should
52:06
Speaker 1: have had at this point, how much money we should be.
52:08
Speaker 1: We have these expectations, and the truth is, you know,
52:13
Speaker 1: we're just all we have is today, and that's all
52:17
Speaker 1: that we have, and we don't know what's coming tomorrow.
52:19
Speaker 1: We don't know what's going to go, you know, what's
52:21
Speaker 1: going to happen, how life is going to shake out,
52:24
Speaker 1: So go for it. Just make a decision, make a
52:29
Speaker 1: decision of what you really want. You know, if you
52:33
Speaker 1: want to if you haven't written that script, if you
52:36
Speaker 1: haven't worked on any film set, if you haven't worked
52:38
Speaker 1: on one in three years, if you know what, no
52:40
Speaker 1: matter how big or small your your situation is, all
52:46
Speaker 1: I'll say is just get moving on it. It's it's
52:50
Speaker 1: all a big thing is just making the decision of
52:53
Speaker 1: what you want to do. And then also one one
52:56
Speaker 1: thing I'd love to say is like write it down
53:00
Speaker 1: and write it down. Write down that goal. If it's
53:03
Speaker 1: to make x amount more money next year, if it's
53:07
Speaker 1: just to have x amount of episodes of your podcast done,
53:10
Speaker 1: if it's to create something, whatever your goal is, be definitive.
53:16
Speaker 1: You know, You've got to have some clarity for you
53:19
Speaker 1: for the purpose, and then what's the action involved, you know,
53:23
Speaker 1: And so I think that's really important is figure out
53:26
Speaker 1: what you want and write it down and then start
53:30
Speaker 1: taking the steps towards it so that you're able to
53:32
Speaker 1: achieve that thing. And it's never too late. It's never
53:36
Speaker 1: too late to be what you might have been. And
53:39
Speaker 1: you're never too young for something. You're never too old
53:43
Speaker 1: for something. It all had like, those are just lies
53:47
Speaker 1: that you're allowing that are preventing you from really getting
53:49
Speaker 1: into stuff. So so go after it. If you guys
53:51
Speaker 1: are creative, and number one, I appreciate you guys. If
53:54
Speaker 1: you're still listening this long to me go on and on.
53:56
Speaker 1: I greatly appreciate it, and I really hope that you'll
53:58
Speaker 1: send me an email and let me know. But yeah,
54:01
Speaker 1: just keep going, figure it out, be very intentional about
54:05
Speaker 1: what you want, write it down, and then get out
54:08
Speaker 1: there and start making it happen.
54:11
Speaker 5: And that is an excellent way Phil, to end the interview.
54:14
Speaker 5: On that note, everybody, I will link to everything that
54:17
Speaker 5: Phil and I talked about in the show notes at
54:20
Speaker 5: Dave Bullis dot com. Twitter it's at dB podcast and
54:23
Speaker 5: my personal Twitter is at Dave Underscore Bullets. And Phil,
54:27
Speaker 5: I want to say thank you so much for coming on.
54:29
Speaker 4: Man again. We were two strangers who went on the
54:31
Speaker 4: Internet and bring it all back right.
54:35
Speaker 1: I love it, No, I greatly. I greatly appreciate it.
54:38
Speaker 1: I'm only going to call you Bullus from here on out.
54:40
Speaker 1: I love it. It's a great last name. I'm Sewing.
54:44
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan now, man. So you let me
54:46
Speaker 1: know any way that I can ever help out, any
54:49
Speaker 1: way I ever can be of service to you, my friend,
54:52
Speaker 1: like feel free always reach out. We are now friends
54:55
Speaker 1: bonded through the interwebs, and I greatly appreciate you letting
54:59
Speaker 1: me come on and hear my voice.
55:01
Speaker 3: So I want to thank Dave so much for doing
55:05
Speaker 3: such a great job on this episode. If you want
55:07
Speaker 3: to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
55:09
Speaker 3: head over to the show notes at Indie film huscle
55:12
Speaker 3: dot com Forward slash seven eighty and if you have
55:14
Speaker 3: it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com.
55:18
Speaker 3: Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
55:22
Speaker 3: really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
55:24
Speaker 3: so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
55:26
Speaker 3: hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there,
55:29
Speaker 3: and I'll talk to you soon.
55:32
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
55:35
Speaker 2: Indie film Hustle dot com.
55:37
Speaker 4: That's I N D I E F I L M
55:39
Speaker 4: h U S T l E dot com.