Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / All’s Fair in Love and Roses with Chad Kultgen and Lizzy Pace from Game of Roses PART 1

Transcript

All’s Fair in Love and Roses with Chad Kultgen and Lizzy Pace from Game of Roses PART 1 · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This is the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast
0:03
Speaker 1: with iHeartRadio.
0:06
Speaker 2: It's almost famous podcast, and well today.
0:10
Speaker 3: I'm here with one of my favorite people in the world, Ashley. Hello, Hi, Ben.
0:14
Speaker 4: So happy to have us back together.
0:16
Speaker 5: It's nice weeks of us not too long together, it's
0:20
Speaker 5: too long.
0:21
Speaker 2: We have a really special episode today, Ashley, you want
0:23
Speaker 2: to tell everybody who we have on and why. Maybe
0:26
Speaker 2: I think a little background to why they're here, like
0:29
Speaker 2: where why this is now could be interesting.
0:32
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so excited to have our guests on today.
0:35
Speaker 5: It is Chad Culchin and Lizzie Pace from the Game
0:40
Speaker 5: of Roses podcast and they're the authors of How to
0:43
Speaker 5: Win the Bachelor, which is something that Teresa you said
0:48
Speaker 5: kind of the Golden Bachelor to possibly win the game
0:51
Speaker 5: because your whole thing, guys, is that you think that
0:55
Speaker 5: the Bachelor is not fundamentally about love.
0:56
Speaker 6: It is a sport, That's correct.
1:00
Speaker 7: Are you saying that you don't?
1:02
Speaker 6: Yeah, listen. Also, just off the top, I want to
1:05
Speaker 6: say this is an honor for us because both of
1:08
Speaker 6: you are two of the greatest players who've ever lived. Acually, obviously,
1:12
Speaker 6: you have revolutionized the tier play game that two on
1:15
Speaker 6: one date that you had in the bad Lands against
1:17
Speaker 6: Kelsey Poe, maybe one of the most dangerous villains we've
1:20
Speaker 6: ever seen in our beloved game of all time.
1:22
Speaker 3: I think you know what I'm talking about.
1:25
Speaker 6: Don't get me started.
1:26
Speaker 5: He even sounds like yourn ESPN commentary right now.
1:31
Speaker 6: I mean, look to us, it is a sport, and
1:34
Speaker 6: we wrote this book called How to Win the Bachelor.
1:37
Speaker 6: It's kind of like the money Ball of Bachelor. It's
1:39
Speaker 6: really based on mathematical metrics of what a player can
1:42
Speaker 6: do in any given situation. And we're not saying that
1:45
Speaker 6: love isn't involved. We're saying it very much is so too.
1:49
Speaker 6: Is a very rote format created by producers that you
1:52
Speaker 6: have to navigate to make it to the end of
1:54
Speaker 6: that game, especially if you want to win the ring,
1:57
Speaker 6: especially if you want to find love. But uh yeah,
2:00
Speaker 6: Gary accused Teresa of reading our book or being found
2:04
Speaker 6: out reading our book while she was in the mansion.
2:06
Speaker 6: But I don't know how true that is. She claims
2:08
Speaker 6: that wasn't true.
2:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, has that been confirmed before
2:11
Speaker 2: we like nail it down and say it happened.
2:14
Speaker 6: She went on Dear Shandy and said that she had
2:18
Speaker 6: like a trial on Audible and listened to the first chapter.
2:22
Speaker 6: That's all she would come clean about.
2:26
Speaker 4: Do we have to make this like a wrong reasons thing?
2:28
Speaker 3: Like if you've read exact you can't be there.
2:31
Speaker 7: I would say it makes sense to go read a
2:34
Speaker 7: book called how to Win a Bachelor when you're going
2:36
Speaker 7: on the Bachelor. Why does it have to be for
2:38
Speaker 7: the wrong reasons?
2:39
Speaker 3: I really one.
2:41
Speaker 2: I think we're going to dive in and have a
2:43
Speaker 2: really fun conversation today because there's a lot of questions.
2:45
Speaker 2: I want to ask you that you probably have studied
2:48
Speaker 2: better than Ashley and I. But I read Sean Lowe's
2:53
Speaker 2: book before, like on the plane to be the Bachelor see.
2:58
Speaker 4: And I read Courny R.
3:00
Speaker 7: Robertson's big reveal how dare you study?
3:05
Speaker 3: Yeah? How dare you get prepared?
3:06
Speaker 1: No?
3:07
Speaker 3: And I remember my reasoning obviously, I wanted to do
3:09
Speaker 3: well at this thing. I guess I.
3:12
Speaker 2: Don't remember if it was before as the Bachelor. On
3:13
Speaker 2: The Bachelor it was one of the two. But this
3:16
Speaker 2: was such a mystery world at the time that you
3:21
Speaker 2: get signed up for this thing and you're flying to
3:23
Speaker 2: LA to maybe be a part of it. For almost
3:25
Speaker 2: three months, you have no clue what you're walking into,
3:29
Speaker 2: and for me it was this. I have a lot
3:31
Speaker 2: of questions. Does anybody have any answers? Yeah, and looking
3:35
Speaker 2: for any answers possible. I have no problem with people
3:37
Speaker 2: preparing for the show. I do think though the motivation
3:43
Speaker 2: behind preparing could become the issue.
3:46
Speaker 6: But that motivation. At this point in reality TV media
3:50
Speaker 6: TV production, no one is going on any reality show
3:54
Speaker 6: without the primary motivation being fame or at least being
3:58
Speaker 6: an equal motivation to finding love, especially in all these
4:00
Speaker 6: dating formats, because you see what can happen, especially now
4:03
Speaker 6: in Love Island USA. You can walk out of a
4:05
Speaker 6: good season's performance with five six million followers on whatever platform,
4:08
Speaker 6: and you're making tons of money. That's the primary motivation.
4:13
Speaker 6: And if you find somebody to date for six months
4:15
Speaker 6: or maybe even mary, great, that's a great, like kind
4:18
Speaker 6: of added bonus.
4:20
Speaker 7: At least at this point, I feel like Ashley was
4:23
Speaker 7: actually one of the first Bachelor influencers ever.
4:26
Speaker 3: Arguably, let's blame this trend on Ashley. I really want
4:30
Speaker 3: to blame it on a.
4:34
Speaker 4: Very lucky.
4:35
Speaker 5: We were cast the perfect time, Very Lucky.
4:40
Speaker 6: Come on, you're one of the greatest players who's ever
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Speaker 6: played this game, hands down to it you have a ninth.
4:44
Speaker 5: Ok, all right, I will admit like there is there
4:46
Speaker 5: is some strategy to my game afterward, but in the moment,
4:51
Speaker 5: I don't know if there ever was.
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Speaker 6: Your audition tape was work.
4:56
Speaker 7: I was strategic the entire time.
4:57
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You knew the game intrinsically,
5:00
Speaker 6: you had watched every season.
5:01
Speaker 7: That's communication helps.
5:03
Speaker 6: You understand the format of it. You know what I
5:05
Speaker 6: mean now, kind of to what you were talking about, Ben,
5:09
Speaker 6: I've been using our book and kind of like Taylor,
5:12
Speaker 6: making strategies for players and secretly training people to infiltrate
5:16
Speaker 6: that game for the past four years and have had
5:18
Speaker 6: very high levels of success kind of playing the Bachelor
5:21
Speaker 6: from outside of it. So you know, I know that
5:24
Speaker 6: there's kind of always this argument of like is it
5:26
Speaker 6: for the wrong reasons? Is it for the right reasons?
5:28
Speaker 6: Are they really there for love? And it's like some
5:31
Speaker 6: of those players I'm training, are there Their primary reason
5:34
Speaker 6: at least that they tell me that they want to
5:36
Speaker 6: go in is like I do want to get married
5:37
Speaker 6: and have kids. So I try to help them get
5:39
Speaker 6: that objective by navigating like you're saying, Ben, this weird,
5:43
Speaker 6: esoteric game that producers purposely keep obfuscated from people so
5:49
Speaker 6: that you don't know what they're going to do. You
5:51
Speaker 6: don't know what kind of manipulations they're going to pull
5:53
Speaker 6: on you. But if you know what's likely going into
5:55
Speaker 6: that situation, you have a much better chance of making
5:58
Speaker 6: it through to the end.
5:59
Speaker 2: Ashley, I'm going to let you run with this for
6:01
Speaker 2: a bit, and I'm going to write down some questions
6:04
Speaker 2: that come up along the way, because I feel like
6:06
Speaker 2: we do have a lot to talk to both Chad
6:09
Speaker 2: and Lizzie about. But I really I don't know if
6:13
Speaker 2: we can do it together because I do think we're
6:15
Speaker 2: going to be jumping on top of each other whole time.
6:16
Speaker 2: So you take it away for a bit and then
6:18
Speaker 2: I'll come in and be like, Hey, give me my space.
6:21
Speaker 6: Guys. You one question, Ben, before we get into the
6:23
Speaker 6: duly questions.
6:24
Speaker 3: You can ask me anything.
6:25
Speaker 6: What was it like to play against in season eleven
6:27
Speaker 6: a bachelorette to play against the greatest player of all time?
6:31
Speaker 6: Nick Vail?
6:32
Speaker 4: Oh my, wow?
6:34
Speaker 3: The greatest player of all time?
6:35
Speaker 5: He is the great way we disagree if you want
6:39
Speaker 5: his post show he is he gone four shows. In
6:43
Speaker 5: his fourth show, he became the Bachelor. That is the
6:45
Speaker 5: greatest player?
6:46
Speaker 7: Or do you only need one season, Caitlin Bristow.
6:49
Speaker 6: But he has more screen time than anybody in the
6:51
Speaker 6: history of the game, more total roses, total kisses, total dates,
6:56
Speaker 6: two back to back end runs in season ten and eleven,
6:59
Speaker 6: crash the season second before Fantasy Suites, and run on
7:02
Speaker 6: Bachelor Paradise season three. No engagement, but he did select
7:05
Speaker 6: the jewel and then he was the Bachelor. No one
7:07
Speaker 6: has ever done that. No one's coming close.
7:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's sit in this first second before I hand
7:12
Speaker 2: this off to Ashley.
7:13
Speaker 3: Okay, would you actually.
7:14
Speaker 2: Claim, though, that that would make him a good player,
7:17
Speaker 2: because I feel like he went against everything you would
7:19
Speaker 2: have said to do to get to the end by
7:22
Speaker 2: what you just mentioned.
7:23
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's different metrics. Caitlin Brestow only needed one season
7:27
Speaker 7: of Bachelor to become the Bachelorette. In my mind, Nick
7:32
Speaker 7: had to keep auditioning again and again because.
7:34
Speaker 3: He was a villain.
7:35
Speaker 6: I think to go from villain to Bachelor is one
7:38
Speaker 6: of the most difficult things you can possibly do in
7:40
Speaker 6: reality television of any genre, any show, and he did
7:44
Speaker 6: it successfully. Yes, he had to have the Redemption Tour
7:46
Speaker 6: in season three of Paradise, but he played that perfectly
7:49
Speaker 6: as well. And obviously it's kind of hard to argue
7:52
Speaker 6: with his success after the show, but I think in
7:54
Speaker 6: Game he just did more to revolution. He was the
7:57
Speaker 6: sport than anybody else has that crashing Kaitlyn Bristo's seas
8:00
Speaker 6: in an episode four, having sex with her before the
8:02
Speaker 6: Fantasy Suites, making it all the way to the end,
8:04
Speaker 6: getting Sean Booth dude not even be able to say
8:07
Speaker 6: his name, to call him the other guy. We've just
8:10
Speaker 6: never seen a psychological manipulation that strong. I don't think
8:13
Speaker 6: from me, guys.
8:14
Speaker 2: And I also think we have to know one of
8:17
Speaker 2: the most iconic moments, and I do you know, Nick
8:20
Speaker 2: is a friend, but I do think this is a
8:21
Speaker 2: moment he probably looks back on goes eh that maybe
8:24
Speaker 2: it was a little too much. Was the call out
8:25
Speaker 2: of Andy Dorfman on the live show where she was
8:29
Speaker 2: not prepared to have to respond to the claims and
8:32
Speaker 2: the things that he said.
8:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, it should have.
8:36
Speaker 2: Put him in like, should have pushed him out of
8:39
Speaker 2: the franchise, but it made him this kind of iconic figure.
8:44
Speaker 2: To where Caitlin brought him back on. Okay, So to
8:48
Speaker 2: answer your question, I would say this, I was such
8:52
Speaker 2: in a different place during that season, meaning Kitlyn and
8:54
Speaker 2: I had such a strong friendship and such a strong
8:58
Speaker 2: comfort with each other. I really didn't doubt that she
9:03
Speaker 2: would keep me around a long time simply based on
9:07
Speaker 2: the idea that she had. It kind of was everything
9:09
Speaker 2: fell into place for me. You had two people fighting
9:12
Speaker 2: with each other, hating each other, couldn't speak to each other,
9:16
Speaker 2: and you had me in the middle being like, here's
9:18
Speaker 2: the thing. I'm not gonna make life hard for anybody here.
9:22
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna stay along for as long as you
9:24
Speaker 2: need because Caitlyn, you and I both know we're not
9:26
Speaker 2: getting to get out at.
9:27
Speaker 3: The end of this. But I'm down to hang.
9:30
Speaker 2: And she kept me around. So I never really said
9:33
Speaker 2: that to her, No, not really in those words.
9:37
Speaker 4: It was unspoken.
9:39
Speaker 2: Yeahs, I think Caitlyn would be Caitlyn would be fine
9:43
Speaker 2: with me telling her telling this. We we literally had
9:46
Speaker 2: our one on one like fantasy suite date, and one
9:48
Speaker 2: of the first things she asked me, She'll be so
9:50
Speaker 2: embarrassed I said this, But one of the first things
9:53
Speaker 2: she asked me, was, uh, what do you think of
9:56
Speaker 2: Nick and Sean? And I was like, Caitlyn, you're gonna
9:59
Speaker 2: ask me about the two other guys while we're in
10:01
Speaker 2: the fantasy suite and she said, I know. And I
10:04
Speaker 2: was like, we both know. Like there's we've known this
10:07
Speaker 2: the whole time. I'm not getting married at then of.
10:09
Speaker 3: This to you.
10:10
Speaker 4: But you still had fun in the fantasy suite, right, Yeah.
10:13
Speaker 3: We had a great time. We danced a lot. But
10:17
Speaker 3: she's great.
10:17
Speaker 2: I love Kaitlin, but I didn't really involve myself in
10:21
Speaker 2: that whole thing. I mean I was really removed from it, honestly.
10:24
Speaker 7: Yeah, you said, team Sean is what I'm gathering.
10:29
Speaker 3: I love Sean, I love Nick.
10:31
Speaker 2: At the time, I really just had no doubt she
10:34
Speaker 2: was getting end up with Sean, Like there was really
10:35
Speaker 2: no question in my mind.
10:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, Now I have to talk about one Chad.
10:42
Speaker 5: You mentioned that you're training men. Have you trained anyone
10:46
Speaker 5: who's gotten on the show?
10:48
Speaker 1: Oh?
10:48
Speaker 6: Yeah, almost every season for the past four years, name drop.
10:54
Speaker 5: Is there a contract?
10:56
Speaker 6: Uh, there's no contract. But basically what I guess, like
11:00
Speaker 6: Lizzie and I's backstory is that we're TV comedy writers.
11:03
Speaker 6: That's where we met on a show ten years ago
11:06
Speaker 6: that was on NBC called Bad Judge. And so my
11:09
Speaker 6: kind of goal with training people has always been to
11:12
Speaker 6: just collect a lot of interviews and stuff and training
11:15
Speaker 6: sessions that we've had, record the zooms, record them in
11:17
Speaker 6: person if they can be recorded in person, to maybe
11:20
Speaker 6: sell it as like a reality show later of like
11:22
Speaker 6: gaming the Bachelor basically. But I always make the deal
11:26
Speaker 6: with all my players you can participate in that if
11:28
Speaker 6: you want to. I will never out whoever I'm training,
11:31
Speaker 6: because I know some of them are still in the system,
11:33
Speaker 6: you know, maybe going to wind up on a paradise
11:35
Speaker 6: or maybe going to be a bachelorette, you know that
11:38
Speaker 6: kind of thing. So I don't want to like foul
11:40
Speaker 6: that for them. But the two players that have come
11:43
Speaker 6: out publicly that I have trained or Cassidy tim Brooks,
11:46
Speaker 6: who was on Clayton Eckert season, we did an episode
11:49
Speaker 6: of our show interviewing her about that and kind of
11:51
Speaker 6: talking about like did the training help, did it hinder you?
11:54
Speaker 6: Was it like just jumbling your head blah blah blah.
11:57
Speaker 6: And then I also trained Taylor Hale, who went on
12:00
Speaker 6: to never be on the bachelor, but one Big Brother
12:03
Speaker 6: three or four years ago.
12:05
Speaker 4: Oh, interesting, do the same rules apply?
12:08
Speaker 6: Many of the same rules. Yeah. Like a PTC, for example,
12:11
Speaker 6: is a personal tragedy card. That's when you have to
12:13
Speaker 6: air your kind of most intimate secret about some horrible
12:17
Speaker 6: trauma that has happened to you in your life. That
12:18
Speaker 6: applies to all reality games. T your play replies to
12:22
Speaker 6: all applies to all reality games, even for the right reasons,
12:25
Speaker 6: although it's not as prominent in like game games like Survivor,
12:29
Speaker 6: Big Brother, Traders, whatever, where you actually get kind of
12:32
Speaker 6: rewarded for lying to people, but still the idea of
12:37
Speaker 6: are you there for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons?
12:40
Speaker 6: And in this kind of modern world, the wrong reasons
12:42
Speaker 6: is always influencing. Basically, if you even say the word Instagram,
12:47
Speaker 6: you know you get thrown under the bus, which is
12:49
Speaker 6: interesting because our next bachelorette is literally an influencer.
12:54
Speaker 7: There's also we say that you're playing to four audiences.
12:57
Speaker 7: This is a big part of our of core ethos.
13:01
Speaker 7: Is the first audience is the bachelor bachelorette who you're dating.
13:05
Speaker 7: Second audience is the rest of the players, third is
13:08
Speaker 7: the producer's Fourth is like bachel Nation or Big Brother Nation,
13:14
Speaker 7: and you're kind of having to juggle all of those
13:16
Speaker 7: at once. And I would say that that really applies
13:20
Speaker 7: in Big Brother. You don't so much have the first audience.
13:22
Speaker 7: You're not trying to romantically get with someone, or maybe
13:25
Speaker 7: you are, I would say you should, But the rest
13:28
Speaker 7: of them apply.
13:40
Speaker 4: There are a couple of different ways of winning.
13:43
Speaker 5: I think in your guys's definition, you could be like me,
13:47
Speaker 5: where I like literally never really want anything.
13:50
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess I technically won Bachelor Winter Games,
13:52
Speaker 4: which is it was.
13:53
Speaker 5: Silly, but I understood the trajectory in which they were
13:56
Speaker 5: going with me.
13:57
Speaker 3: Do you still view it as winning Bachelor?
13:59
Speaker 4: I never I know that it's it was.
14:03
Speaker 5: It was sweet because it was the producer's way of
14:05
Speaker 5: being Like Ashley was never the Bachelorette. She would have
14:09
Speaker 5: been a very polarizing bachelorette. Let's give her this little
14:13
Speaker 5: you know, two weeks spin off the thing, and then
14:16
Speaker 5: there's winning in the in the way that Nick wins.
14:20
Speaker 7: I would say, you won, you won Bachelor Paradise. You won.
14:25
Speaker 7: You're now the first person to ever be a housewife
14:28
Speaker 7: from Bachelor, which is like, in my mind, I'm obsessed
14:32
Speaker 7: with the housewife, So congratulations.
14:33
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is I mean I would say this in
14:37
Speaker 6: reference to like your time in game.
14:39
Speaker 4: I think you were It's different from Ben's.
14:42
Speaker 5: I wanted to bring this up because like there's Nick,
14:44
Speaker 5: there's Ben, there's like Hannah Brown, there's Caitlin, and like
14:47
Speaker 5: I'm just thinking about all these different ways of winning.
14:50
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think you were like one of the first
14:53
Speaker 6: players really like ahead of your time, playing a modern,
14:55
Speaker 6: modern game back when it was kind of in its
14:58
Speaker 6: golden era, still in at like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen era.
15:03
Speaker 6: What your focus seemed to be or maybe this is
15:05
Speaker 6: just how it played out, was being like one of
15:08
Speaker 6: the players that really popped out of the show. So
15:10
Speaker 6: you finished in ninth place, but that doesn't matter. You've
15:13
Speaker 6: got a giant, successful podcast, millions of followers, you're an influencer,
15:17
Speaker 6: you come back into the group dating format, you're kind
15:20
Speaker 6: of ever present in the culture of the show, even
15:23
Speaker 6: though you never want a ring or a crown, And
15:25
Speaker 6: that really is like where modern reality play is at.
15:28
Speaker 6: It's like Carolyn Weiger on last season of Traders, she
15:33
Speaker 6: didn't come close to winning that game, but she was
15:35
Speaker 6: probably the most memorable player and as a result, tons
15:38
Speaker 6: of Instagram followers, tons of TikTok followers. She's in all
15:42
Speaker 6: these other reality shows now, and so it's in the
15:45
Speaker 6: modern reality game where we have what we call third
15:47
Speaker 6: wave reality TV, which is like a Trader's where they
15:50
Speaker 6: take people from different reality disciplines to go head to head.
15:54
Speaker 6: Will a housewife beat a Big Brother player? Will bachelor
15:57
Speaker 6: overcome survivor? You know? Those shows are where you're trying
16:01
Speaker 6: to get to so that you can exist in that
16:03
Speaker 6: ecosphere for like a decade probably I think into the
16:06
Speaker 6: near future. And that doesn't really mean that you need
16:09
Speaker 6: to win any of your rookie shows. It just means
16:11
Speaker 6: you need to be entertaining.
16:12
Speaker 3: I let me jump in here for a second.
16:15
Speaker 4: Ashley, Yeah, I'm so entertained.
16:21
Speaker 5: Rookie shows.
16:23
Speaker 2: No, let me jump in here for a second. Because
16:25
Speaker 2: Chad and Lizzy, I do think they're I need a
16:29
Speaker 2: clear definition from the two of you, because I agree
16:33
Speaker 2: with you and everything you're saying, But I do think
16:37
Speaker 2: the gameplay of it is interesting when you bring up
16:40
Speaker 2: an Ashley, because what I love about Ashley, what I
16:45
Speaker 2: like respect about her. Why we've done this show for
16:48
Speaker 2: ten years together and it has been a success. I
16:53
Speaker 2: have only viewed Ashley as the most authentic player to
16:58
Speaker 2: ever play. I don't think she was ever were for me.
17:02
Speaker 2: There were moments where I was like, what is the
17:04
Speaker 2: right or wrong decision here? How is this gonna?
17:06
Speaker 5: Like?
17:07
Speaker 2: How do I navigate the moment I'm in? Especially as
17:11
Speaker 2: the Bachelor, It's all you do is navigating moments right
17:14
Speaker 2: or wrong. For me, I've always seen Ashley in my
17:19
Speaker 2: real life when cameras aren't going or when she's on
17:22
Speaker 2: television as authentically herself, which in my opinion, means she
17:28
Speaker 2: would be dominant in any game she plays because she's
17:32
Speaker 2: polarizing and she jumps off the camera at you. But
17:36
Speaker 2: to call her a player assumes I think that there
17:39
Speaker 2: is some type of strategy, and Ashley could tell me
17:43
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I don't think she's ever had a
17:45
Speaker 2: strategy when she goes on a show in her life
17:47
Speaker 2: other than maybe one that she was uncomfortable going on.
17:50
Speaker 2: But Bachelor is like I'm diving in and being myself
17:53
Speaker 2: from the moment I get there.
17:55
Speaker 6: I mean, I think, whether you have a strategy or not,
17:58
Speaker 6: if you step on the baseball field and they put
17:59
Speaker 6: a in your hand. You got to swing it, you know.
18:02
Speaker 6: And that's what Bachelor is. It's like when you step
18:04
Speaker 6: out of that limit, or really a game starts when
18:06
Speaker 6: you start applying or get nominated, because the producers are
18:09
Speaker 6: building an archetypal kind of image of who they want
18:12
Speaker 6: you to be in the show. The good girl in
18:14
Speaker 6: your case, the virgin Ashlely, the nice guy next door
18:18
Speaker 6: maybe for you, Ben or unlovable kind of became your
18:21
Speaker 6: you know, your Moniker. But there are plenty of players
18:25
Speaker 6: Taylor Frankie Paul is one of them, I think, who
18:27
Speaker 6: are not overtly strategizing. They're not intellectualizing it. They are
18:30
Speaker 6: just natural, raw, kind of forces of nature. I think
18:33
Speaker 6: you were that as well, Ashley, just like Ben was saying.
18:36
Speaker 6: But it doesn't matter like what your personal play style is.
18:39
Speaker 6: There are some very cerebral players. There are some who
18:42
Speaker 6: are just flying by the seat of their pants. Still though,
18:45
Speaker 6: all of those different play styles are playing in the
18:47
Speaker 6: same game, both against and with each other, at least
18:49
Speaker 6: in Bachelor, and you have to navigate it. You have to,
18:52
Speaker 6: Like you knew what a two on one was before
18:55
Speaker 6: you went on that one with Kelsey Poe, right, you
18:57
Speaker 6: knew what like a group date is or a one
18:59
Speaker 6: on one date is. These things are not normal in
19:02
Speaker 6: everyday human life. These are structures that the game has made.
19:05
Speaker 6: And if you walk into the game knowing a little
19:07
Speaker 6: bit about like the order of how they'll happen, what
19:10
Speaker 6: is the kind of structure of a season? When do
19:12
Speaker 6: I get to hometowns? Even that is preparing for something
19:15
Speaker 6: that is a manufactured game.
19:18
Speaker 3: That's fair, That's good. Okay.
19:20
Speaker 7: I'll never forget when I actually put on the princess
19:23
Speaker 7: dress when another player was going on the pretty woman date.
19:29
Speaker 4: Like I will say that was very thought through. I
19:34
Speaker 4: thought that was hilarious. I was like, let's see here
19:37
Speaker 4: and let's.
19:38
Speaker 5: Be very tug and cheek and yeah, the other girls
19:42
Speaker 5: did not recognize that, which was hilarious.
19:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:47
Speaker 6: I mean that's part of like what at least I
19:49
Speaker 6: try to train all my players, is like, if there's
19:51
Speaker 6: a camera on, you do something, and I think like
19:54
Speaker 6: that that moment we call that mansion free play antics
19:57
Speaker 6: when they're off on a data a one on one. Yeah,
20:00
Speaker 6: if there's a camera in the mansion or wherever they
20:02
Speaker 6: have you, you know, in a hotel, if you're international
20:04
Speaker 6: or whatever, do something, do a song, do a dance,
20:07
Speaker 6: make something up, get into a weird conversation about UFOs, whatever,
20:11
Speaker 6: just so that they have that footage because they're always
20:13
Speaker 6: going to cut back to the house. They do that
20:15
Speaker 6: in every date to see, like what are the other
20:17
Speaker 6: players doing? Be the at least the star of that
20:19
Speaker 6: little show, that little scene.
20:21
Speaker 7: You know, if you're crying eating a corn on the
20:23
Speaker 7: cob in the princess dress, they're not going to use that.
20:28
Speaker 5: I thought it was I had, you know, I had
20:31
Speaker 5: different relationships with the producers, and I had one producer
20:34
Speaker 5: that I knew that I would go to for like
20:36
Speaker 5: playing like dress.
20:37
Speaker 4: Up moments, and we had the best time.
20:40
Speaker 5: Like we were literally just gonna sit at home and
20:42
Speaker 5: like sit around the campfire for like the zillion times.
20:44
Speaker 5: I was like, let's just like do a little skit anyway.
20:49
Speaker 5: I want to know who you guys think is the
20:52
Speaker 5: best lead ever. Because we're sitting next to Ben Higgins
20:56
Speaker 5: and now I'll hand it over to Bed before we
20:58
Speaker 5: get into it or rundown questions he can ask all
21:03
Speaker 5: his personals because you know, you guys fed my ego
21:05
Speaker 5: a little bit.
21:06
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're feeding ours just by talking to us honestly,
21:09
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know I or sorry, we do
21:12
Speaker 6: you want us to answer who we think the best
21:13
Speaker 6: leads are.
21:14
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's okay, you don't have to include Ben
21:16
Speaker 5: in there, but like I think that when you think
21:18
Speaker 5: about historically that he's definitely like probably the Prince Charming Bachelor.
21:24
Speaker 6: Well, the bigger thing that you did, Ben was was
21:26
Speaker 6: do what we call love level four, which is an
21:29
Speaker 6: I love you or I'm in love with you to
21:31
Speaker 6: your two finalists before the final rows ceremony, which had
21:34
Speaker 6: never happened. That I think, for better or worse, and
21:38
Speaker 6: everybody can have their own opinion on this, kicked the
21:40
Speaker 6: game into a direction that we're we're there now where
21:44
Speaker 6: now almost every season you're seeing multiple love level fours
21:47
Speaker 6: coming from the lead to multiple players, and that idea
21:51
Speaker 6: of like a lead cannot tell anybody that they are
21:54
Speaker 6: at love level four and tell the very final moment
21:57
Speaker 6: at the altar. Basically that has been shattered in Season
22:01
Speaker 6: twenty Bachelor, then season and.
22:04
Speaker 4: Except for mel who had love for no one.
22:07
Speaker 6: How dare you?
22:09
Speaker 3: How dare you for his shoes?
22:11
Speaker 6: Man? That was a rough season. That was a rough season,
22:14
Speaker 6: ladies and gentlemen.
22:14
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would say Ben is definitely up there. I
22:18
Speaker 7: feel like you're kind of one of the golden children
22:22
Speaker 7: who keeps getting asked back over and over again, whether
22:26
Speaker 7: you seem happy to be there or not. Like in
22:28
Speaker 7: Winter Games, I think you came off as, like we
22:33
Speaker 7: discussed for tr R for the Right Reasons as the
22:36
Speaker 7: primary like thing you have to convey in the game,
22:39
Speaker 7: and I think you come off as one of the
22:42
Speaker 7: most for the Right Reasons leads of all time. I
22:46
Speaker 7: have a soft spot for Charlie O'Connell Bachelor season seven,
22:50
Speaker 7: who made the show his own, made them move to
22:55
Speaker 7: New York, picked up Chris Harrison, did all sorts of
22:59
Speaker 7: like really extravagant plays that we had not seen before.
23:06
Speaker 7: It had been mostly you know, very by the book
23:09
Speaker 7: up until that point.
23:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've ever seen that, so I'll have to watch that.
23:13
Speaker 7: But Caitlin Bristow for me, is the best player of
23:16
Speaker 7: all time. I think that she just was such a
23:21
Speaker 7: star in a season of stars mind you on Prince
23:26
Speaker 7: Farmington Crystal season. I think that she's you know, she's
23:30
Speaker 7: gone on to have a very successful post game career
23:35
Speaker 7: without getting you know, the villain edit that maybe the
23:39
Speaker 7: person Chad's about to say did get.
23:42
Speaker 6: I don't think Vile is the best lead. I think
23:44
Speaker 6: he was the best player. I think the best lead
23:46
Speaker 6: of all time. I have kind of two One is
23:49
Speaker 6: based on the season that was turned in that I
23:51
Speaker 6: think in a lot of cases, seasons are defined by
23:54
Speaker 6: their players, but sometimes the lead can really be like
23:57
Speaker 6: the most important player in a season, and I think
23:59
Speaker 6: Hannah Brown was that in Bachelorett fifteen. So many iconic
24:03
Speaker 6: moments she I think raised the level of play of
24:06
Speaker 6: the players on her season, kind of like Michael Jordan
24:08
Speaker 6: did with the Bulls when he was you know, back
24:11
Speaker 6: in the day. I think you got performances out of Tyler, Cameron, Pilot,
24:14
Speaker 6: p jed Wyatt, even Luke Parker that you don't get
24:18
Speaker 6: if she's not the Bachelorette. And then I would say,
24:21
Speaker 6: in terms of sacrifice to the game, like how much
24:23
Speaker 6: have you left on the field and given to this thing?
24:26
Speaker 6: I think Rachel Lindsay is far and away at the
24:30
Speaker 6: top of that list. I think what she was asked
24:32
Speaker 6: to do and repeatedly asked to do even after her
24:35
Speaker 6: season as a lead, was insane, and she just kept
24:39
Speaker 6: doing it and you know, even to the end when
24:42
Speaker 6: she did that extra interview with Chris Harrison that changed
24:46
Speaker 6: the franchise forever. You know, she is like, I think,
24:50
Speaker 6: in the top three or five most important people who
24:53
Speaker 6: has ever come through this franchise. And I think her season,
24:56
Speaker 6: if you go back and rewatch it, there were just
24:57
Speaker 6: so many insane things they did to her, like putting
25:01
Speaker 6: Lee Garrett on that season and then having him and
25:04
Speaker 6: Kenny King kind of go head to head in like
25:06
Speaker 6: a racism argument that they had to solve that the
25:09
Speaker 6: men tell all, it was just wild that season. So
25:12
Speaker 6: those are my two answers.
25:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree.
25:16
Speaker 2: I think that though, was also a turning point for
25:18
Speaker 2: the franchise where they asked they they were being asked
25:22
Speaker 2: from the public to broach and approach the issue and
25:27
Speaker 2: make the show more diverse, and so the show said, okay,
25:29
Speaker 2: let's do that. And then they, in my opinion, went
25:33
Speaker 2: way too far too quickly, like instead of making it
25:37
Speaker 2: a really beautiful story and something that hey, we've heard
25:42
Speaker 2: from you, they did they asked Rachel to carry the
25:44
Speaker 2: weight of these conversations in the midst of a season,
25:49
Speaker 2: and it felt it felt ugly, honestly it just felt
25:52
Speaker 2: disgusting at times, and I think they never full They've
25:57
Speaker 2: never really adapted to a healthy place of where people
26:02
Speaker 2: can have conversations and understand and grow and be exposed to.
26:06
Speaker 2: They just kind of like forced it down everybody's throats
26:09
Speaker 2: in a way that made Rachel be the spokesperson and
26:12
Speaker 2: that felt weird.
26:13
Speaker 3: It felt very odd. Yeah, and I think we grapped
26:16
Speaker 3: onto that.
26:17
Speaker 2: I do think though a lot of the names you mentioned,
26:20
Speaker 2: and I think it's where the show and I want
26:21
Speaker 2: to hear your opinion of this now. I think it's
26:24
Speaker 2: where the show has fallen flat is. Back in the
26:28
Speaker 2: day they had contestants, like in Ashley, they had leads,
26:32
Speaker 2: and I would if I was a lead today. I
26:34
Speaker 2: don't think maybe I'm as popular as I was when
26:38
Speaker 2: I came on, because every season that was something uniquely different.
26:43
Speaker 3: Right.
26:43
Speaker 2: You go from Caitlin Bristow, the one sneaking out of
26:46
Speaker 2: her hotel room and you know, getting people to fight
26:51
Speaker 2: over her, and you know all the like funny comments
26:55
Speaker 2: that were made from Caitlyn to me, you know, you're
26:57
Speaker 2: more like, hey, that's just the guy that I would
27:00
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood. To the Nick Files, who like, yes,
27:04
Speaker 2: had the villain edits and was a villain for years
27:08
Speaker 2: and people were intrigued by what is he going to
27:10
Speaker 2: do and how messys is gonna get. They mixed it
27:13
Speaker 2: up a lot back then, and now it feels like
27:17
Speaker 2: we've gone in this kind of like rhythmatic. Every season
27:21
Speaker 2: kind of has the same thing. The leads really can't
27:23
Speaker 2: even talk to the contestants. They're not really good at it.
27:26
Speaker 2: They don't ask any questions leading up to a mel
27:29
Speaker 2: who probably will be the tipping point, the turning point
27:33
Speaker 2: hopefully for us to say, let's get back to something
27:35
Speaker 2: maybe a little messier and more interesting, because we've gone
27:40
Speaker 2: in this like very boring status quo for so long.
27:46
Speaker 5: Let's just throw in that Joey was a great peak
27:49
Speaker 5: in the middle of some valley.
27:51
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think, I mean for my money, and I
27:53
Speaker 6: could give a two hour long college dissertation on this.
27:56
Speaker 6: But it started in Bachelor season eighteen, which I believe
28:00
Speaker 6: was twenty fourteen one, Pablo Galavus, the first real true
28:04
Speaker 6: villain Bachelor. I think the producer tier got kind of
28:08
Speaker 6: a taste of blood in their mouth with that season,
28:10
Speaker 6: and they were like, every lead, we're gonna shot on them.
28:13
Speaker 6: We're gonna make them stupid or ridiculous fools or just
28:17
Speaker 6: like straight villains. And after all Gale left, he knew
28:20
Speaker 6: how to kind of ride that line. When he left
28:23
Speaker 6: after Colt Underwood season, there was like this power vacuum
28:28
Speaker 6: and you can kind of see it in Pilot Pete
28:30
Speaker 6: season where they're really turning those players against each other.
28:33
Speaker 6: They bring Chase Rice in on Victoria Fuller's one on
28:35
Speaker 6: one day to be like, here's the guy you had
28:37
Speaker 6: a little fleeing with. He's singing you a song on
28:41
Speaker 6: your one one day. You know, they were doing really
28:42
Speaker 6: malicious and then you know, you saw this kind of
28:46
Speaker 6: struggle for who's going to be the top dog. And
28:48
Speaker 6: in that struggle, I think all these producers thought we
28:51
Speaker 6: need to wreck the players. That's what the show is about,
28:54
Speaker 6: turn against them. And now we're in this kind of
28:56
Speaker 6: like post that era where maybe Scott Teddy is going
28:59
Speaker 6: to turn ship around. We don't know, but it's a
29:03
Speaker 6: whole new series of producers that are doing things completely differently.
29:08
Speaker 6: But also I would say Love Island has taken its
29:12
Speaker 6: toll on our beloved game as well, because I mean,
29:15
Speaker 6: I know when players first come to me. If I
29:17
Speaker 6: think I can get them on Love Island, That's where
29:20
Speaker 6: I'm telling them to go. I don't tell them to
29:21
Speaker 6: go to Bachelor anymore. It's not like the pre eminent
29:24
Speaker 6: dating format.
29:36
Speaker 2: Let me dive into a few kind of more rapid
29:38
Speaker 2: fire questions for you and Lizzie Chad before we kind
29:41
Speaker 2: of get back on track to maybe a larger conversation
29:43
Speaker 2: about the Golden and what you didn't think was great
29:46
Speaker 2: about this season With all the I mean so many
29:51
Speaker 2: seasons of the show, so many contestants coming through the
29:55
Speaker 2: formula up until maybe when you know, Scott Teddy takes over.
29:58
Speaker 2: We won't really know what that's going to look like,
30:00
Speaker 2: but the formula has always stayed reasonably the same. I
30:02
Speaker 2: do think Along Gail brought an interesting mixing into it.
30:06
Speaker 2: He was an intellect and he knew how to manipulate
30:10
Speaker 2: the people a little bit better than most, and so
30:13
Speaker 2: he got a lot out of the contestants he did.
30:15
Speaker 3: He was great at it.
30:16
Speaker 4: I literally call him father in my phone. He is
30:20
Speaker 4: father along Gail, Oh, my god.
30:24
Speaker 2: Father Gail Ashley and I still get confused this day
30:28
Speaker 2: when we break down a season and you have contestants
30:30
Speaker 2: making the same stupid choices that they've made for the
30:33
Speaker 2: last twenty plus years of this show, that they know
30:36
Speaker 2: is going to be a death sentence to their time
30:39
Speaker 2: on the show. So my question for the two of
30:41
Speaker 2: you again, these need to be a little more rapid
30:43
Speaker 2: fire because we are going to run out of time here.
30:46
Speaker 2: But why do contestants still make the decisions they make
30:49
Speaker 2: knowing that it is not going to be good for
30:51
Speaker 2: them long term?
30:53
Speaker 7: Lizzy, you mean like mistakes like tattling.
30:56
Speaker 2: Tattling, pulling the lead four times in one night, getting
31:00
Speaker 2: in big fights with all the other women in the
31:02
Speaker 2: house and saying, no, I'm just here for the lead
31:05
Speaker 2: and I'm not here to make friends, And you're like, well,
31:07
Speaker 2: that's never works out for anybody. Why do you continue
31:10
Speaker 2: to do this when you know this isn't going to
31:13
Speaker 2: help you with the lead long term?
31:15
Speaker 7: Anyways, I think there has been a little father whispering
31:20
Speaker 7: in their ear. Oh, go pull them again, We're gonna
31:23
Speaker 7: do more time. Hannah and Slush pulled them three times
31:27
Speaker 7: on night one and it worked out for her. She
31:29
Speaker 7: won the ring.
31:30
Speaker 6: That could be you and they also, though are in
31:34
Speaker 6: some cases it's way more transactional than that. It's not
31:36
Speaker 6: even an insinuation. It's like do this steal and you'll
31:39
Speaker 6: come to paradise. That happens, you know, and it doesn't
31:42
Speaker 6: happen to every player. High level players, players that they
31:44
Speaker 6: bring into the season knowing they're going to make an
31:46
Speaker 6: end run and we're going to have you in hometowns.
31:48
Speaker 6: They don't do that. They don't like foul the four
31:50
Speaker 6: tr rnis of their season's journey. But players that are
31:54
Speaker 6: like in that bottom half, players who are going to
31:57
Speaker 6: be like mid season floaters, and they're like, how do
31:59
Speaker 6: I get to paradise. I'll do anything. You can literally
32:01
Speaker 6: just exchange stuff with the producers sometimes and they'll be like, yeah, okay,
32:05
Speaker 6: we need to go do this crazy thing. Blow this up,
32:08
Speaker 6: get in a fight with them, and we'll bring you
32:10
Speaker 6: to paradise.
32:11
Speaker 7: People have been given scripts for women, tell all of
32:14
Speaker 7: like attack this person.
32:16
Speaker 2: I never saw those types of things. They might exist.
32:19
Speaker 2: There is a line and you two know this, and
32:21
Speaker 2: this is something that I don't even know if I'm
32:23
Speaker 2: contractually obligated to say anything anymore. This is a game show.
32:27
Speaker 2: It falls under the game show category. So the level
32:30
Speaker 2: of manipulation and hey, say this and say that is
32:34
Speaker 2: limited to none because you cannot coher so manipulated game
32:38
Speaker 2: show legally, and so there is unique ways the producers
32:41
Speaker 2: do it. And that's why when people ask is it scripted?
32:45
Speaker 2: I always say never. I never saw a script I
32:48
Speaker 2: did see I did have conversations about, hey, what do
32:52
Speaker 2: you think you should do in this moment?
32:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, but my response.
32:56
Speaker 2: Has always been when people ask, the choice always to me.
33:01
Speaker 2: So the good and the bad always laid on my shoulders. Yes,
33:05
Speaker 2: they could say, hey, go do this, walk into that
33:07
Speaker 2: room and steal her from the Shan Boos, and I'm like,
33:11
Speaker 2: but she doesn't want to leave Shan Booth like. She
33:13
Speaker 2: wants to hang out with him a lot longer. She
33:14
Speaker 2: wants to thing out with me. I'm not going to
33:16
Speaker 2: take her from him.
33:16
Speaker 3: She's good.
33:19
Speaker 2: The decisions always fall down to the players, and so
33:21
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, I think without filtering it, it would
33:25
Speaker 2: be the players that are able to be told what
33:28
Speaker 2: to do. Is where does that come from them? Is
33:31
Speaker 2: that just a desire to please? Is that a desire
33:34
Speaker 2: because they don't know the show.
33:36
Speaker 6: I'll tell you something that I tell players very early
33:39
Speaker 6: on is like the biggest skill you can have is
33:41
Speaker 6: on night one, understanding where you fall in the order.
33:44
Speaker 6: Are you one of the final three or not? Because
33:46
Speaker 6: that decision, as I'm sure you all know, is pretty
33:49
Speaker 6: much made in the first week.
33:51
Speaker 4: How would you be able to tell a place?
33:53
Speaker 3: It's pretty easy ask you're going to.
33:55
Speaker 4: Be able you're going to be in top three?
33:58
Speaker 3: Did you know you were going to be in top three?
34:00
Speaker 5: Because it sounds like Chad's trying to say that if
34:04
Speaker 5: you signed up, you should be able to tell if
34:06
Speaker 5: you're gonna follow the top three on night one?
34:08
Speaker 3: WHOA if you can.
34:10
Speaker 6: That's a difficult skill to have, but yes, you need
34:12
Speaker 6: to be able to tell, like am I gonna make
34:14
Speaker 6: it to the end or not? If you believe that
34:15
Speaker 6: answer is no. And there are certain telltale signs that
34:18
Speaker 6: you can see if you're about to be put in
34:19
Speaker 6: a rivalry. You can see if they're making you the villain.
34:22
Speaker 6: There's certain things that those at least used to I
34:24
Speaker 6: don't know how Scott Tedy's gonna run his crew, but
34:26
Speaker 6: it used to be there were certain things you could
34:28
Speaker 6: tell almost immediately if you weren't in the top three.
34:31
Speaker 7: Which producer you're paired.
34:32
Speaker 6: With all of that. Yeah, the producer hierarchy was an
34:35
Speaker 6: important piece of that, which now is like doesn't exist.
34:38
Speaker 6: But the basic idea is, if you know you're not
34:42
Speaker 6: in the top three, then you're just scrambling to stay
34:45
Speaker 6: in the show as long as possible so that maybe
34:47
Speaker 6: you can make a meaningful appearance, get invited to paradise
34:50
Speaker 6: and see where that gets you. And so I hear
34:54
Speaker 6: what you're saying, Ben about like it's always down to
34:56
Speaker 6: the players and the individual person gets to make the choice.
34:58
Speaker 6: But I don't think that's exactly the experience of every
35:02
Speaker 6: player who has come through this system, you know. I
35:06
Speaker 6: know Vile kind of has ideas like that and says
35:09
Speaker 6: a lot of things like that on his podcast, Like
35:11
Speaker 6: because he's been at such a high level of it,
35:12
Speaker 6: he kind of understands how it all works. But it's
35:15
Speaker 6: like it doesn't work like that for everybody. Yeah, then
35:17
Speaker 6: that much I can say.
35:18
Speaker 4: Always thought that Ben and Nick all they always have
35:21
Speaker 4: said it.
35:22
Speaker 5: They've said that over and over again, both of them,
35:24
Speaker 5: and I am like, I don't know, I've felt far
35:27
Speaker 5: more influenced than the two of them. Apparently I didn't
35:30
Speaker 5: have my feet as firmly on the ground as you guys,
35:34
Speaker 5: more maturity.
35:35
Speaker 7: Coming from you two though, Ashley, do you feel like
35:38
Speaker 7: there was you had more opportunity to do what you
35:41
Speaker 7: wanted on Housewives than Bachelor?
35:45
Speaker 4: Well, obviously I can't speak very much.
35:49
Speaker 5: I have two words that I think I am okay
35:53
Speaker 5: with saying I think I was more aware and wiser
35:57
Speaker 5: while shooting Housewives.
36:00
Speaker 2: Let me also speak to this a little bit because Ashley,
36:04
Speaker 2: I think when you were on the show and there
36:06
Speaker 2: was a moment in Winter Games where they asked me
36:08
Speaker 2: to produce Ashley even because of our relationship, and she
36:12
Speaker 2: knew it.
36:12
Speaker 3: This wasn't a secret to her.
36:15
Speaker 2: She was of course, this was very clear, and I
36:18
Speaker 2: was like, hey, can Ben Ashley wants to talk about
36:21
Speaker 2: this relationship. I think you could be the person to
36:24
Speaker 2: do it with her it and so I did on
36:28
Speaker 2: you know in an interview, Ashley was easily influenced and
36:32
Speaker 2: also had a lot of trust. I didn't have the
36:34
Speaker 2: trust that Ashley had. She saw these people have they
36:38
Speaker 2: have my best interests in mind, and that's how you
36:40
Speaker 2: went into the show where I want to Daddy Yeah,
36:42
Speaker 2: and he's my father's weird.
36:44
Speaker 5: I still stay too that I'm not saying that applies
36:47
Speaker 5: to everyone. But I think that my friendship were the producers.
36:50
Speaker 5: I don't think that they were ever going to screw
36:51
Speaker 5: me over entirely. I thought they're gonna have me have
36:55
Speaker 5: a rough episode here or there, but like I think, ultimately,
36:58
Speaker 5: and this is what ALONG tell me throughout it. He's like, listen,
37:03
Speaker 5: just listen to him, Just trust me, just trust me.
37:05
Speaker 5: And I would trust him, and look it paid off.
37:08
Speaker 6: I'll tell you one anecdote of a producer who will
37:10
Speaker 6: remain nameless and is probably not even there anymore, about
37:14
Speaker 6: a tactic used that to me was like the perfect
37:17
Speaker 6: example of why you can never trust them even if
37:19
Speaker 6: they're your friends. This was early on in a casting process.
37:24
Speaker 6: This person sent a player that I was training a
37:27
Speaker 6: picture just some random night, a text message of the
37:32
Speaker 6: producer out at a bar drinking and said, when all
37:35
Speaker 6: this is over, we got to hang out and go
37:36
Speaker 6: get drinks. And that was gaining the trust of this player,
37:40
Speaker 6: right maybe it was a year later. Two years later
37:44
Speaker 6: I have another player received that exact same image and
37:48
Speaker 6: text from that exact same producer. So this was just
37:51
Speaker 6: a standard trust building manipulation, And to me, that's like
37:55
Speaker 6: that's before they even went in the limo. That's before
37:58
Speaker 6: they were even on the show, like an early phases
38:00
Speaker 6: of casting, just to get them to like say more
38:02
Speaker 6: stuff or do whatever they wanted in these casting interviews,
38:05
Speaker 6: you know, And I'm like, that's who you're dealing with.
38:08
Speaker 5: I totally agree, there's some that cannot be trusted. But
38:10
Speaker 5: I felt like, after at least my first season, I
38:13
Speaker 5: felt like I knew that I that they cared about
38:16
Speaker 5: my humanity.
38:17
Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe I'm still naive.
38:19
Speaker 3: You're still naive. You're very naive. Yeah, you're very naive.
38:24
Speaker 3: And but here's what you have going for you.
38:29
Speaker 2: And you and I have talked about this so many times,
38:32
Speaker 2: especially when we were still making more appearances on the show.
38:36
Speaker 2: The thing that you have uniquely different about you is
38:40
Speaker 2: they could tell you to do something. There's no possible
38:44
Speaker 2: way they can ruin you, Ashley, because of who you
38:46
Speaker 2: are as a person. So your authentic self, no, you're
38:50
Speaker 2: your authentic self is going to have the internal boundaries
38:54
Speaker 2: to not cross a line. You came very close with
38:58
Speaker 2: Kelsey Poe that could have really backfired on you.
39:00
Speaker 3: It didn't.
39:01
Speaker 2: It didn't because of how the show came off, and
39:04
Speaker 2: what the storyline was going into it, and how lovable
39:08
Speaker 2: you are. But it's going to be impossible to ruin
39:12
Speaker 2: you on any show because of who you are. Now
39:14
Speaker 2: there's other people and we say this, and when a
39:17
Speaker 2: league calls me before the season, my only piece of
39:20
Speaker 2: advice for them, because I don't really have that much,
39:23
Speaker 2: is stay true to yourself right down. You know this, Ashley,
39:26
Speaker 2: But I tell the lead, write down right now, before
39:29
Speaker 2: the show ever starts, before the magazine start getting printed,
39:32
Speaker 2: before the media starts getting into it. Write down who
39:35
Speaker 2: you are and what matters to you right now, because
39:38
Speaker 2: when the show's done, you need to look back at
39:39
Speaker 2: that and use this whole thing to just.
39:42
Speaker 3: Push you forward, but not take away who you are.
39:45
Speaker 3: Same thing's true during the show. When you're a contestant
39:47
Speaker 3: in filming, don't change yourself to try to make the
39:50
Speaker 3: camera like you. But you're just likable, so it's gonna
39:54
Speaker 3: work for you. But you're just you also have this
39:58
Speaker 3: like element of like, you know, emotion and your story
40:02
Speaker 3: and that help. Now to go back to the questions, Yeah,
40:06
Speaker 3: you've mentioned good players and bad players, Lizzie and Chad.
40:09
Speaker 3: You've gone through good leads and bad leads. I think
40:12
Speaker 3: we need to nail down for the listener though when
40:14
Speaker 3: you speak to this, what exactly are you saying what
40:18
Speaker 3: makes a good player and a bad player? What?
40:20
Speaker 2: I guess what makes a good player would be the
40:22
Speaker 2: better question here? Or a good lead? How are you
40:26
Speaker 2: quantifying that?
40:28
Speaker 7: I would say that they are navigating all of these
40:31
Speaker 7: different audiences in a way that gets some screen time,
40:37
Speaker 7: that is tonally the direction that they're going for. I
40:42
Speaker 7: do think it's possible, Like a Courtney Robertson, for instance,
40:45
Speaker 7: she got a villainetta on her season, but it worked
40:49
Speaker 7: for her. She ended up getting the ring. I don't
40:54
Speaker 7: know if that's possible to do anymore at this point
40:57
Speaker 7: because when they villainize people, they tend to really villainize
40:59
Speaker 7: them at this point. But yeah, I would say leaning
41:04
Speaker 7: into what you're talking about with Ashley, that authenticity to
41:08
Speaker 7: bring out the parts of you that are good TV,
41:11
Speaker 7: that are going to get the people who are watching
41:15
Speaker 7: to identify with you and want to follow your story afterwards.
41:19
Speaker 7: Because a huge metric that we use is Instagram TikTok
41:24
Speaker 7: followers of who gets the most from each week, who's
41:27
Speaker 7: able to do the stuff to get the screen time
41:30
Speaker 7: to be in the document, and that can include things
41:32
Speaker 7: like not doing things that they're just not allowed to
41:37
Speaker 7: show on ABC, you know, like singing songs that they
41:40
Speaker 7: would never be allowed to share. It's a very complicated game.
41:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I yes, this makes sense. Okay, we
41:50
Speaker 2: have so many questions for Chad and Lizzie that I
41:53
Speaker 2: think this is going to be a good place to
41:54
Speaker 2: take a pause and we'll come back very soon.
41:58
Speaker 1: Follow the Ben and Ashley Almost Famous podcasts on iHeartRadio
42:02
Speaker 1: or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.