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Whitney Williams: Progress Is Possible | 100 Stories Ep. 14 · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Yesterday to have breakfast and we're like, you know, it's like an hour wait and these people are just like next to us and they're like, Are you all from Missoula? And like I always say Montana's a small town. Whitney: It really is. A small town. We have one long street, or what is it? Yeah. Paige Williams: Yeah, that's right. Okay. I wanna play Mad Libs a little bit, so I'm gonna say today I'm speaking with Whitney Williams. And I could either say like who is a or whose work focuses on or whose mission and then let's just fill in the blank real quick. Whitney: Yeah, I mean I think you can just say like, you know, social entrepreneur, change maker, Paige Williams: Social. Whitney: something. Yeah. Montana. Paige Williams: Do you want me to say philanthropist? Okay. Social entrepreneur. Whitney: That's great. Paige Williams: And change maker. Whitney: Yeah, cool. Paige Williams: All right. We'll see if I can get this right on the first take. You ready? Okay. Whitney: Ready. Paige Williams: Today I am speaking with Whitney Williams, who is a social entrepreneur and change maker and very humble because I invited Whitney onto 100 Stories because she has such a diverse experience in social impact, in politics, and philanthropy, in documentary filmmaking, and storytelling. Like the list goes on and on. We were having so much fun at the beginning catching up about, you know, just the intersections of storytelling and how we know it really creates social impact. And making a difference in the world. So, Whitney, thank you so much for your time. It is quite an honor, and thank you for being here. Whitney: thanks for having me, Paige. Paige Williams: I'm wanna jump right in and I would love for you to start with tell me about the work that has most shaped how you see yourself in the world. And I know that's a vast experience that you're pulling from, so I'm really curious what you're gonna say. Whitney: Yeah, you know, it's a great question and it's a hard one to answer. I think it's it's got two parts. One is I was born to change makers, and in my case, generations of change makers in my family am fortunate to have Pat and Carol Williams as my my parents, and some pretty extraordinary aunts and uncles and grandparents before that. And so I think that, you know, in our family. sort of making a difference in the world wasn't wasn't actually a choice. The choice was how are you gonna do it, not whether you were gonna do it. And we've all and my brother, my sister and I have all gone off and done you know, what we can to sort of help our communities and, you know, our parents before us and grandparents before that. So, you know, I think centrally Truly feels like the choice was made for me based off who I was born to in terms of making a difference. And so I feel very, you know, really truly kind of blessed and lucky to have had had that as my beginning. and then, you know, I think that the things that you learn when you have folks like mine, you know, at the sort of kitchen table or in the car rides or the walks, you know, is really important life life lessons, one of which is sort of grounded me in a variety of ways, which my my dad used to say there's a genius on every block. And he would talk about how important it was to sort of listen and learn from your neighbors. And when dad went back to the United States Congress and then served as Montana's longest serving, and I might argue best member of Congress. he took that sort of core value with him, which is just embedded in in me as well. And so that sort of listening and learning and believing that there's someone who's got a clever idea and or an answer to a problem, like right next door, is is really powerful grounding, I think, for a human being. And it's been that way for me, you know, my whole life. And so I've gotten to carry that, you know, throughout a pretty great career, starting in the Clinton White House. my father's political campaigns, my mother's political campaigns, and then in the sort of philanthropy and change making sector, since then. Paige Williams: What was the most surprising thing growing up as Pat and Carol's daughter? Like what like you pr you pr you saw a lot, you heard a lot, but what like made you stop and pause and and question? Whitney: Yeah, it's it's a really good question. I mean, first of all, people made you stop. mom and dad are beloved. we lost dad last year, but mom is doing great. And we were at an event this weekend for Sam Forstag, who we're supporting for the congressional seat. And there was like a receiving line, you know, everywhere you go with mom and and dad, it it was always that. that way in a in a lovely way. There were moments my sister actually shared at dad's service. My sister said, you know, it was frustrating sometimes. Like you'd just be going out to dinner, you know, with dad and mom and you couldn't ever, not once, literally, get through a dinner. almost all of our lives actually. was different more recently when people didn't not everybody knew him in the way that they sort of used to, but still, you know, they were sort of beloved community members and people would Come and stop and want to talk, you know, about not getting their social security check or, you know, having an idea that they wanted to share or saying thank you. You know, that's that's certainly one lesson you learn is that people have a lot of challenges, you know, people have a lot of problems. And what you learn when you learn from some of the best who are, you know, kind, generous change makers, like mom and dad, is that you are responsive, that you are a listener. that you give back to people. so we're sort of obsessed in our family with thank you notes or, you know, gratitudes. but it it's real. and I think that that that spirit of, you know, showing up for people and being responsive to people, you know, played out all the time for us. and and still, you know, still sort of does. But, you know, I think that core lesson of you know, being grateful too is something that You know, I'm so I'm so grateful to have gotten at such an early age. And it was just like an expectation. Like, you know, they there was no I don't remember anyone ever telling me to say thank you. it was just what you did, you know? and that was a that was a cool thing and that was a you know, a nice way to engage in the world, still now, you know, especially now when things feel a little bit broken and a little bit angry. To try to remember to just be really as kind as you can and and give lots of gratitude. Paige Williams: Yeah, gr gratitude goes so far. And I I love that, you know, we just give back it's not even a question in our family. I remember seeing your mom on stage at a conference, it was Athena many several years ago. And Whitney: yeah. It's a great conference. Paige Williams: I can't remember if it was her or you, but one of you were like, if you think of a woman Who should be in politics, I want you to pull out your phone right now and text her and say, Hey, I think you should run for office. And that stuck with me. I don't remember anything else from that conference, but I remember that and I remember who I text. Whitney: great. Did they run? Paige Williams: I did. Whitney: Awesome. Paige Williams: Okay, what story do you tell about one of the most defining or transformative moments of your life? And how has that story changed over time? If it has. Whitney: Well, I have show and tell for this one. Let's see. Paige Williams: good. Let's do it. Whitney: So when I was in just graduated from the University of Montana, Paige Williams: Yeah. Whitney: I had an incredible opportunity to go move to Butte and work for the hotel and restaurant employees, local 457. They were originally the Women's Protective Union, which was America's longest-lasting all-female union. The first one was formed in San Francisco. The second one was formed in Butte, but the Butte one lasted longer until the 70s. so 1893, I think they started. And I got to do some oral histories with some union members and then go and archive their their history. It's now at the Butte Archives, the great Butte Archives, one of the great archives in America. And they have incredible labor history, as you would imagine. But the women's protective union history is now kind of all organized and boxed up over there. And when I was going through the boxes of things, I had expected to find, you know, lots of picket signs. And our family were very pro-labo, all many union members for generations and generations. And some aunties and grandmas of mine were members of the women's protective union. And so I knew, you know, labor and I knew strikes. And I used to go on strikes all the time with my parents and my godparents. And I thought for sure we'd have signs and there really weren't many picket signs. But there were these these banners that are like these silk kind of hand-painted banners and apologies for the MSU colors for those of us who are Grizz here. so this this banner, I went to one of the former presidents of the union who was in her 90s at the time, Blanche, and I brought some things, pictures and things to talk to her about. And I brought this banner with me, and I said, What is this? Like. I was expecting to find picket signs and things, and I found a lot of things that look like a picket sign, but it was a piece of like silk. And she said, honey, that is a picket sign. And then she took it, and we had 10 or 12 of them we found. And she pulled it across the table. And she said, See that? And there are these tiny little pinpricks on either side of this. And she said, Well, that is a picket sign. She said, because you know, you can't carry a picket sign and a child at the same time. So they put it on their chest and they marched the. I mean, are you kidding? Like how incredible. And when I left, they kindly gifted me with this really precious, precious thing. And that story, I mean, it's sort of like everything. Right. It's like it just that embodies everything. And when you think about women and women's labor history and women's history in general and the march toward, you know, a better America, a better community. You know, we're in it. They were in it in 1893. We're still in it, right? And so I think the story of progress is possible, but it's not guaranteed. Hillary Clinton says that a lot. There's this extraordinary musical called SUFS, which lasted just about a year on Broadway. It's incredible. You can watch it now on on PBS, but Hillary was a producer of that show and that progress is possible but not guaranteed is is one of the songs in the in the show. And I think my younger self wouldn't have thought that you know, it would take so long to make progress and that there would be steps back, you know, whether it's Roe v. Wade or, you know, any number of things we could list off now about women's rights and other rights, voting rights, we just learned, you know, there's gonna be a whole set of new challenges to people's ability to vote in this midterm. I wouldn't have expected that. You know, my younger self would have thought like, you know, we'll once we get it, we'll keep it. And I think that powerful progress as possible, but not guaranteed. Like, yeah, you gotta keep fighting for it all the time. And this, for me, this sort of on strike reminder is just one of, you know, one of many that we have to kind of keep it up. Paige Williams: Yeah. Is that how it transformed you? Whitney: Probably. I mean probably. I think I think that I again, you know, coming from just the being at the knee of these ch people, whether it was my parents or the Clintons when he was president, she was first lady, or, you know, extraordinary other leaders that I've had the chance to work for, you you know, you get to be like a literal fly on the wall. You know, I feel like I've been that for my whole life and while I'm, you know also a great leader and I've done many things in my own right. Being in the room where, as Lynn Manuel Miranda would say, the room where it happens is pretty, Paige Williams: The room where it happens. Whitney: pretty incredible, you know. in fact Lynn is a a client of mine now and we get to work closely with him and his incredible father and mom and their whole family. And yeah, I think I think that's this this this on strike, that moment of learning about that history and Seeing my grandma's dues cards and membership records and all of the fights, you know, they would they would meticulously these women take notes in these old big, big, big books, you know, minutes records, which are all over there at the archives now. And it's just incredible to watch their debate in the 70s. Justice Department said, discrimination's discrimination. Women, you can't discriminate against men. You have to let men in that union. And the women were like, no. We're not doing it. And you just see all these discussions throughout pages and pages and arguments about it. And in the end, they had to do it. And so they merged with hotel restaurant employees and became, Paige Williams: Mm. Whitney: you know, became the hotel restaurant joined the hotel and restaurant employees union. But but yeah, that was a pretty transformative moment and certainly a lot of that that I, you know, carry. Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: So you drop this nugget that Lynn Manuel is a client. What what what work? What client of? Tell me tell us everything, Whitney. I love the show and share. Do it. Whitney: He is, yeah. Amazing. I'm like, I feel like I want to show and tell everything. I know. I have, I don't know where it so Lynn Manuel's father, Luis Miranda, who's I've become very close to, they contacted me after Hurricane Maria hit, which was almost well, nine years ago now, and said we, you know, could use some some help thinking about. the response to Hurricane Maria. Mm Luis Miranda, Louise Miranda, Lynn's parents are from Puerto Rico, born and raised and moved to New York in their teenage years for college. So Lynn was born in New York, but spent his summers in Puerto Rico and is very close to the island and much of their family still lives there. And so they contacted us to to help them with a kind of what that we thought might be a one-off project. But then we just got hooked. Like we loved them. They love us. We get a chance to work with them across their philanthropy portfolio and their political and activist portfolio. We one of our extraordinary accomplishments after Hurricane Maria was to help revitalize the coffee sector, which we had done a lot of work in agricultural development and economic development in the Congo, which is another thing that I've done. And that was many years ago. In fact, that Is a Congolese coffee bag from one of our shipments. We were able to help improve the quality and quantity of coffee crops and then get them to international markets from Congo years ago. And I thought, well, if we did it in Congo, we could probably do it in Puerto Rico, which is amazing coffee culture. The Pope drinks Puerto Rican coffee. It's like core to the DNA of Puerto Ricans coffee. It is j it is an economic engine, there's no question, but it's also a cultural identity. And so we had a chance to work on this coffee project as one of dozens of projects we've gotten to do now with the Miranda family and worked on revitalizing the sector and got Starbucks to donate a million plus seedlings, climate resilient seedlings to bring the the coffee sector back. Seventy-five percent of the coffee trees were uprooted and destroyed after Hurricane Maria, like actually destroyed. So no bringing them back. And so we got these climate resilient seeds and we did all this partnership work. We actually worked really closely with the Trump administration, first Trump administration, because we needed to get a waiver from USDA about climate resilient scene on the on the island. And then we ended up just moving heaven and earth, the Mirandas and Wii to get that crop you know quantity and quality up to you know the ability to be able to to to sell it both on the island and And off and within three years we had these incredible, usually it's about five for a coffee tree. And within three years we had like incredible crops. These farmers had had brought it back. and so we get to do projects like that, with the Miranda family, and it's been like the absolute honor of a lifetime to be able to work with that family. Paige Williams: That's incredible. Whitney: Yeah. Paige Williams: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, let me get back to these. No, it was great. Yeah, Whitney: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sorry. I'll go on about the verandahs for hours. Paige Williams: yeah, yeah. No, it's great. I feel like we already covered three. Well, I'll ask you this just in case anything different comes out. Growing up, what did you learn about who you are and who you could become? Whitney: Mmm, such a good question. You know, the who what I learned about who I was is like a member of a family. We had this incredibly tight family. And a member of and a contributor to a family. Like I definitely, like we each were that. And we were great teammates and great soldiers, which we had to be both in a relatively high pressure cooker environment with you know elected official parents. and I think that the who who would you become is like keep it up. Keep being a good family member and friend and neighbor and keep being a good soldier. Paige Williams: Great. Okay. How do you distingu nope, sorry. Mm, okay. So we were just talking about the Miranda, so this is a great tie-in. What stories shape how philanthropy decide which problems matter? Whitney: Hm. Well, good stories, and there are lots that that aren't told as well, but good stories are, you know, end up at the top of the list of people's attention, of people's focus. You know, in the philanthropic sector, you know, people there's so much incoming because there is so much need, you know, that a good, powerfully told story and maybe a really simple one. You know, can kind of jump to the top of the line, whatever that line might be. You know, it I mean, Lynn Manuel, Miranda created Hamilton, of course, and many other things. you know, the the way in which young people in America are learning about education and the sort of origin story of this country, and maybe most importantly, centering themselves and making meaning of. what what did that mean and and how did how does that impact me vis-a-vis this education program the Hamilton producers put together after Hamilton came out, knowing it would be a sensation, but knowing everyone wouldn't be able to see it. So there's an incredible program called Eduham that runs now in high schools all across the country. And I think that, you know, sort of shows like an extraordinarily well told story, just makes like remarkable impact in Ripples. and ripples and ripples and it doesn't have to be, you know, a Tony Award winning show to do that. But it does have to be able to to reach people, you know, and storytelling can do that in a way other things can. Paige Williams: Yeah. And you've been a part of some short films and some longer films and you have this short ca skate park film. And like I'd love for you to talk about how the making of that film changed the kids' lives just by being able to tell their story. And then the film that is about to I believe you're at the end of it about the letters. Whitney: Yeah, the care package. Paige Williams: Yeah, let's just talk about the experience of telling story, both for the characters if it's nonfiction, and then for the audience who receives it. What's your experience with that? Whitney: Yeah, I mean, I you know, I I think, sort of having grown up and been around politics in one way, shape, or form all my life, it's always about story, right? It's always about finding stories and being able to tell those to connect it to complicated maybe public policy matters or something, right? You want the individual story to be able to do that. You know, there's this fascinating research and something called psychic numbing, which is I think it was a Harvard. maybe professor who sort of coined that term. But it's essentially this study that was done that sort of took, I think it was World Vision or Mercy Corps, one of the big n nonprofits, and it took did a study that said, okay, we're gonna send a bunch of postcards with like an appeal for money to all these different folks with some get the full family or some get a a Darfur This many people have died in Darfur over this period of time and then it went to like a community and sort of a village and like a very small share of that village and then a full family of like five and then a brother and sister and then an individual kid to see how people were resonating with all of these things. One imagines intellectually, I think we would all imagine when you say five hundred plus thousand people have been killed in Darfur, that would be pretty compelling. But people can't deal with that number. They they don't know what that is. overwhelmingly, it's the single human. It's the one story of the one kid that gets the attention every single time. Amazing. It's amazing. And I think when you think about story and storytelling and storytellers where there's so many beautiful storytellers out in the world and in this documentary space, or you know, authors like you or others, right, who basically can tell a story that people can latch on to and really understand and make meaning of it. And connect it in some way, shape, or form to their own experience or to someone they know. I mean, that's the kind of thing that just sets everything apart. And that's really hard to do. And in the case, I think, of the few, you know, films that we've been able to be a part of most recently, you know, we have found this like unbelievable. It's like there's there's just this justice in telling stories in this skate park film called Paving the Way. You there's this incredible young people, Allie and Terry and the whole crew up on the Salish, you know, Salish Kooteny land, up at the Flathead. Those young people, I mean, you just you don't need you just turn the camera on. You know, they they can tell their own story right now. Figuring out how to put that together is a lot of work. And our talented director, you know, Keelan Williams, an incredible indigenous team, you know, were able to figure out how to d to do that and did it, you know, beautifully, but you know, getting J just showing up for people, you know, letting them tell their own story. Pretty cool to be able to do that. Paige Williams: Yeah. And what's the new one that you're working on? Whitney: So it's called the package, and it's about care. care international, the big nonprofit, 80 years old this year. the care package is a trademark term that's theirs, that is their origin story. Eighty years ago, Americans of all shapes and sizes and income levels. Decided that in the aftermath of World War II, they individually, individual Americans needed to do something to be helpful in rebuilding post you know World War II, very war-torn Europe. And so over time, over the course of basically 70 years, a hundred million Americans sent care packages to people overseas. And it was full of these rations, you know, food and luxury items as described by some of the original recipients, like a bar of soap for, you know, a refugee kid or a kid who was, you know, obviously displaced in some way and rubble all around and fires still burning from the war. Or a Hershey bar. I mean a Hershey bar, can you imagine a Hershey bar? You've never tasted chocolate in your life. And what that does to embed Goodness in the world about the United States of America. I mean, people fell in love with this country. Not only did we defeat the bad guys and did we help in all the ways, but we helped rebuild even when it meant giving packets, you know, packages to enemies. I mean, because they went to Nazi families and others. I mean, it went to everybody. And the idea that an American who was unknown to them, mostly unknown to everybody, I mean, sometimes they would come with a personal letter, but I mean, talk about power. Talk about influence, talk about the type of country that we have been and maybe I believe still are. but what a beautiful representation of who America is. My goodness. So we're working on a package that centers two of the original recipients who are now in their 90s, who we've just we've just finished interviewing, one in Austria and one in New York, who said, Marlena in New York, who said, when I opened the package. And she went, I mean, like literally just this extraordinary, you know, there was like t rations and chocolate and this little bar of soap. And she said when I found out that it was a an American, she doesn't know who it was, but an American who sent it to her, she said, That's the day I decided to become an American because I want to be those people. I was like, wow. Paige Williams: You've said there's so many stories to tell and we talked about how the stories rise to the top. Why did you choose this one as a producer? And what is if you could wave a magic wand and you could have its greatest impact, what are you hoping the power of this film will do? Why'd you say yes to this story? Whitney: Yeah, so this one we actually just kind of created. We we know the organization care, the extraordinary CEO who who runs it is a dear friend of mine. I used to work for them. They were a client of ours years ago. So I'm very fond of the organization and the impact that they've made. And I'm a bit of an insider in the nonprofit space. Like I've been in it for twenty-five years. I know a lot, but I didn't know that the care package was care. And I thought, wow. There is an opportunity one for care to be known for this extraordinary thing that they did all these years. But more importantly, America's two hundred and fifty years old this year. And I was thinking about what we can do as a company to do give a birthday gift to ourselves as Americans. And so we came up with the idea and we pitched it around and got a few folks to help us underwrite it and And I thought, you know, i i i if there was ever a time for certainly my fifty-five years, if there was ever a time to remind ourselves of who we are as Americans, now would be it. And I believe that. I believe that's who we are. I believe we're incredibly generous with our neighbors still, you know. I think there's a caricature of us that's starting that we need to stop. which is that we're maybe not as kind or as giving or as Compassionate as we once were. And I feel like this origin story in many ways of US foreign assistance, though it was done by individuals, led to the Marshall Plan. It led to USAID. I believe that that's that that's what this film will do. And I, you know, I just really do hope as many people as possible can see it because I think it's going to be so uplifting and such a beautiful reminder, you know, about who we are. That the goal is just lots and lots and lots of eyeballs and hope. hopefully that will, you know, impact people in some positive positive way. Paige Williams: Yeah, I can't wait to see it. I need some American joy. Whitney: American joy. There you go. Paige Williams: Mm-hmm. whose perspective are most often missing when those stories are formed? So we the question before was about which philanthropic stories get told. Whitney: Yeah. I mean I think the the you know, communities that You know, ultimately, I think probably kind of communities that f you know, if if you were to make a a skate park documentary without the kids, it wouldn't you know, wouldn't wouldn't work, right? if you were to make a care package documentary without the original recipients, I mean maybe you could pull it off, but it certainly wouldn't work so well. And I think the thing that we many sometimes forget is to sort of like go to the source, you know, and really talk to people who are kind of most directly impacted or, you know, affected or, you know, to sort of tell their own story, you know, versus having someone do it for them. And frankly in the, you know, philanthropic sector, you know, there's just so many efforts that just don't work. And they don't work because they didn't talk to local folks, you know, about what it was. There's famous example after example after example of, you know, laptops being given to kids who had no way to charge them. You know, there was no electricity. They couldn't do it, you know. So thinking about, you know, making sure that you understand community and working with local folks, whatever that means, wherever whatever context that is, whether it's in, you know, storytelling or kind of grant making or, you know, other sort of nonprofit work is understanding the local, you know, context and making sure that local people are engaged in all the ways. Which again, d you know, none of that seems like it should be, you know, rocket science, but too many people just miss it. You know, and they just don't they don't work with or work alongside, you know, people from from the communities whose stories they want to tell or whose, you know, support they wanna they wanna give. Paige Williams: How do we know, I love that you said, you know, your your life has pretty much been about story because story is so important in politics. And as a nonprofit leader, as a philanthropic leader, how do we know when a story is actually creating social change and creating impact? Whitney: Well We premiered our film Paving the Way here in Missoula at the Big Sky Film Festival. We had a incredible opportunity to take it to Tribeca a few months later, but we really decided we wanted it to be here because we wanted, you know, access for kids and families who you know, were in it or whose friends were in it to be able to come. And sitting in the Wilma Theater when Paving the Way came on the big screen. with all of those skater kids in sort of the first and second row watching them, you knew you made an impact. And it was literally like a declare victory. Nothing else needs to happen. And while of course we Paige Williams: Mm. Whitney: want lots of people to see it or, you know, have a chance to experience it and and we're releasing it free to the public, we decided not to distribute it more broadly because we wanted it to be free. And so it'll be on YouTube soon. but we really you know, genuinely felt in that moment like we knew we had done something good. You know, those kids' lives are actually changed for the better, who were a part of that project. And more importantly, who are part of these skate parks, which our pal Jeff A meant, whose private philanthropy is called Montana Pool Service, and we help him run that foundation, who builds skate parks all over Montana and rural isolated places in other parts of the country as well. You know, you show up to one of those parks, and without exception, every time I've been to a park, some version of almost verbatim, some version of a kid saying, I'm alive because of this place. Almost every time you go there, it's almost like the kids got like a talking point. And they all say it all over the place because they found community. Maybe they found themselves, maybe they learned the life lesson of falling down and getting back up. You know, they developed community, they found their people. and that, you know, you just declare victory every time because you know that it's working. And if it works for one kid or it works for a hundred thousand kids, or it works for a million kids, like somewhere in between. And one's enough, you know. Paige Williams: Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me the power of putting a camera in a kid's hand who's been disadvantaged or putting them in front of a camera. Like it just changes their whole life. And there's something so powerful about narrative and narrative intelligence in empowering kids to be able to tell their story. Like they change. It's amazing to me. Whitney: Totally. Yeah. Paige Williams: Have you ever had to change a belief? about what creates social change. Whitney: Yeah, I suppose certainly. I mean there are many things I've had to I've had to rethink. you know, one I think was again, because I'm fortunate to have been around people who embedded this in me in all the ways throughout my life. But this question about or this this strategy about visiting with local folks, knowing, believing that local people know best, you know, what they need and w what might hap not only what the needs are, but what the ideas are to solve the thing. that's not always been the case in philanthropy. And while I believe I've carried that idea of we've got a guiding principle in my company around centering community, y you just need to remind yourself every day that that's the only way to make a difference in in the world is to make sure, you know, you're partnered up. with the with local local people and getting local ideas as well. yeah, I think the other thing is that, you know, the I I ran for for governor of Montana in twenty twenty and I think there was a real I had a real belief that I had a set of expectations around how that would go because I'd been around politics so long and so many campaigns and so much of my life that I expected things to go a certain way. And there were things that just didn't. and Having to kind of unpack that and think about what happened and where and what the challenges were. One of them was gender. I hadn't expected that gender would enter my race as much as it did. And I certainly know women all know things can be a little bit different for us in terms of climbing the ladder or making a difference or being heard in a room, right? It's, it's, it's well known to to most of us. but I just somehow thought this would be would be different and it wasn't. And the the amount of, you know, sort of people would say things to me like I mean l l literally, people would one one guy in a little town hall in Broughtus said, what do you weigh? And so my answer was enough to be governor. but you know, just that over and over and over and things like that, you know, that were just so inappropriate. And you could not believe the questions that were being asked, or conversation about my jacket or my hair or whatever, you know, not being married or not having kids, you know, it was just a set of you know, both double standards most certainly, but also like expectations for women that were you know, really, really different. And you you you can't you can't know there till you go there. You know, that like phrase. Like in running for governor, you cannot know what it's like until you do it. No matter how many people in your family have been on a ballot my entire lifetime, basically, you know, it's a different thing when it's you. And frankly it was easier for me than it was for my family, which I also discovered is it's way harder on families than it is individuals. Like I was okay with most of it. I was like, you will not believe what someone asked me today. Others would get so mad about it, you know. the endorsements of you know, some of our good old friends who are still good friends of mine endorsed my opponent in the primary instead of me. And people were like, how could that happen? I was like, it's politics, you know, it's whatever. But what you did see underneath all of it, was a gender bias for men. And that's just We we live in that world and we gotta keep fighting against it. Paige Williams: Yeah, it's a narrative that has controlled our country. Whitney: That's right. Paige Williams: I'm curious it's so in i it it's it still surprises me when I'm a part of the data. Like when I'm a data point that proves the data correct. I'm like, yeah, but not me. Like I mean, I'm me. I'm not data, I'm me. I'm you know. Whitney: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: So what I would love to know is how did you recover and what did you take from it and what would you Tell a woman running today for office based on your experience. Whitney: Yeah, I mean, I actually like I I don't even think I needed to recover. I was tired at the end of the, you know, race because it's exhausting. And I was running during COVID. So it was a very odd trying to figure out how to, you know, meet people, which of course you couldn't do because we were during lockdown and and other things. But but I actually like fared really well emotionally through that. I mean, even with, you know, longtime friends of mine who decided to choose my opponent over me. It was just It was just the way it was. It was okay. You know, it's that's again the kind of life and that's politics. but I will say that, you know, w what we all have to do is encourage both more women to kind of get in the arena and really stick with them when they do, you know, support them, offer child care if they've got kids or elder care if they've got parents, or, you know, a meal, which you just never get enough good food when you're on a campaign trail, you know, just supporting women in any way and encouraging them to run. You know, just I and that's just a a thing we do. We my my mom, there's a wonderful organization in Montana called Carol's List, named after my mom, and and it's focused on getting Democratic pro-choice women elected to the legislature and the the central importance of just having someone you can call, which we've we've done. You know, we've got lots of candidates who've run and won and many who've run and lost and run again, keeping women in the arena and supporting them in little ways and big ways, like all of it in between, is just really critical. And so for all of us to understand, one, like encourage a woman to run, you know, find someone you think should run and keep encouraging them. There's a statistic that says sort of women on average, some take a lot more than this, but on average women take seven people. close to them, who they sort of know, admire, encouraging them to run for office directly, encouraging them to run for office. Without that, it's very rare that women select, self-select into the arena. It's just harder for women. And so it we just got to keep up the encouragement and make sure that we get more and more. And by the way, there's good news. Like the Democratic majority in the legislature is female. And it's female because we do these things we're talking about and we support women and we don't give up. and that's what we have to do. Paige Williams: We pin our own strike while we help Whitney: That's right. Paige Williams: the babies, like we figure it out. Whitney: Figure it out. Paige Williams: well, I hope as one of the seven million that you run again. I'll Whitney: thank you. I appreciate that. Paige Williams: take that off, but it meant a lot to everyone. And I know you know that, but it really Woo Whitney: yeah. thank you. Paige Williams: we were all rooting for you, you know that. Whitney: yeah, thank you. Paige Williams: I'm not gonna ask that. Okay. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna finish up here. Yeah. Okay. Whitney: Okay, let's do it. Paige Williams: All right. Who has the power to make and take a political story to become the story everyone else has to live inside? Like when we think about the political story we're living within, good or bad, who holds that power to like really make us believe that we're living within that story? Whitney: Yeah. It's such a good question. And the sad truth to that, probably at the moment, is media in all forms, and money. big money, dark money. the reality is that every year campaigns every year campaigns double what what it what it costs to run a campaign. Last race, I think Senator Tester alone, Spent $135 million in his race. I think that Senate race was over $300 million. Well, that's insane, right? That's insane for $700 something thousand Montanans. And so when you think about that sort of question around, you know, your your your question, it is unfortunately, what's happening is that we have so few sources of media anymore. And they're being fed by dollars that then develop a narrative that if said over and over and over and over and over, people tend to believe is true, even though oftentimes it's completely false. And so, you know, what we have to do is keep talking to our neighbors. Do not give up on having conversations about community and politics in public. I find a lot lately people whispering a little bit more in a restaurant about a political race. And I just say, price of eggs is too high. Like, look at the price of gas. I mean, really, we this is a community we live in. We shouldn't be afraid to talk about those kind of things, right? And the only way that we, I think, get past this is to stick together and to sort of say, no, we're gonna keep talking about whatever the issues of the day are, as much as we can with our neighbors and people who we agree with and people who we We don't because the the this money, you know, in a place like Montana, the amount of out of state money that's coming is shocking, right? It's just shocking amount of cash, to help try to get people to believe a truth, often that isn't a truth. And that's that's something we have to be very careful about. And the role of storytellers, even more important, right? Because storytellers and artists can break through in ways that others can't. They just absolutely can. So it's critical that we both have more stories, that we support artists and storytellers to be able to tell them. And then we find clever ways to get those stories out in the world given, you know, consolidation and distribution and what's happening to the industry. but we gotta do everything we can to support, you know, artists and and and you know, musicians and storytellers because they are the reflection of us, right? That is it's reflecting who we are. Paige Williams: This inquiry of recording a hundred stories about narrative intelligence, I'd love to ask you, if you were writing the definition for narrative intelligence, how would you define it based on your experience? Whitney: my gosh, that's such a good question. How would I just Yeah. Paige Williams: I mean, one thing you just said that no one has said yet is that talking to your neighbor can change the story or help you understand the story better. I think that's so important. To break through truth. Whitney: Mm-hmm. Well, I think Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think that that's right. I mean, we have to be listeners. we have to be learners. And we have to ensure that we're developing our intelligence, you know, together, collectively, you know, with with with with our communities. And not again, you know, we're in a we're in a tricky time here. Because we have such an onslaught of information. some of it just not real, you know, or adapted in some way to make us, you know, believe something. and that's where, yeah, I feel like there's There's gotta be a lot more of our coming together as as neighbors, you know, in the coffee shop or at Charlie B's or on a trail or talking about things that you know, that sort of matter to us and You know, it i if you could do that anywhere, you certainly should be able to do that out here. You know, it's where people Paige Williams: Yeah. Can I ask you again because I segueed and I want to ask you again. Whitney: Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. So just the definition is what you're looking for. Like how would I define it? Paige Williams: How would you define narrative intelligence? Cause what I'm really curious about is like, what are we going to say it is? And how are we going to measure it? How are we going to increase it? Whitney: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think that it it's it's it's gotta be in the It's gotta be like in the category of being able to detect what you know, intelligence is and then figuring out ways to understand and share stories. And I would hope that the best thing we could do is not to just assume that digital formats are the only way that narrative intelligence can and should live in the world. Paige Williams: Love it. Whitney: And I don't know if that's like I have literally never thought of that question, so take it or leave it. Paige Williams: Love it. It's absolutely going into the mix. We're making a gumbo of a narrative Whitney: Okay, good. I like it. Paige Williams: intelligence description. So you Whitney: Yeah, great. Paige Williams: just contribu contributed. It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whitney: Okay, great. Awesome. Paige Williams: Okay. We haven't talked about Williams works. So I'm gonna ask you a question about it. I I want you to just briefly say like what it is and one of the biggest like narrative shifts you've seen through the work. Like one of the greatest joys of being able to do the work. And then we'll be done. Okay. So tell me a little bit about Williams' works and one of the the greatest stories you tell from the work that you got to do at as a result of being in that CEO seat of running the company. Whitney: Yeah, it's amazing. Well, I created the company about twenty-five years ago and we were sort of one of the early social impact agencies that was helping kind of families and corporations, sort of high net worth folks who had been blessed or lucky and worked really hard and had an opportunity to give back. And so at our core as a company were problem solvers who truly believe that anything is possible. And so we get to work helping solve. problems and create projects and programs that contribute to communities and better people's lives. And it's sort of the honor of lifetime to be able to work alongside with this action orientation. We are very focused on action. so we end up doing, you know, ultimately we become extensions of teams of our clients, helping them make big change around the world. Paige Williams: What's one of your favorite stories from the change you've been able to help? Whitney: Mm, it's so hard. yeah. Paige Williams: You don't have to. We can cut it. Whitney: Yeah. I mean, honestly, that coffee Puerto Rico coffee story. Actually, I'll Paige Williams: You know that. Whitney: tell I'll tell I'll tell one. It's like maybe it's too long, but I'll try to keep it to like less than a minute. I was in the Congo, I created a a nonprofit. in Congo, my co-founder and my buddy is Ben Affleck, the actor and director. And Ben and I co-created Eastern Congo Initiative 17 years ago, and one of the bits of work that we do is supporting survivors of gender based violence. There's a horrific problem with rape and sexual violence in Congo and some parts of Congo where our offices, two out of three women, have been raped. And so we have been very busy doing a variety of projects and programs and providing funding support to to women. And I was in a community meeting. in Congo, outside of Goma, which is in the North Kivu province up against Rwanda in eastern Congo, now unfortunately close to the Ebola epidemic that's r raging right now. But we were in this little center where women were coming in and telling their stories and getting sort of checked in to see whether they needed to go to a hospital or whether they wanted to go if they didn't, they would go on a path for justice and start thinking about pairing them with someone who could help them try to bring their bring their their their case to court. And there was a woman in the back and we had been having this amazing conversation with a number of women who'd come in, many of whom had just been raped, or their mom or their baby, or some other woman in their life. And there were probably thirty women in the room. And at the end of the conversation, we said we, you know, thank you so much for sharing your story and and do you have any questions of us? And a woman stood up in the back, baby, this beautiful Congolese cloth tied around her, baby on her back, and another little one right next to her knee. And she stood up in in Swahili, she said, Do you have rape in America? And the four of us thought, What? I mean, who's gonna answer that? And so one of our girlfriends who was along, was at Glamour magazine at the time, who was writing a story about the trip said we do have rape in America. And she recited some of the statistics in America, and then the woman stood back up and said, Well, I hope you have organizations like this in America that can help you too. I mean, come on. Like, empathy, man, the thing you learn when you get to travel the way any of us do, whether it's down the street in our own hometown or halfway around the world, is that everybody wants the same stuff. And people are so full of empathy and so full of grace. And even in the most horrific of conditions, in a place like Eastern Congo, where there are challenge after challenge after challenge after challenge. This gal's standing up asking if we have rape in America and wishing us well and, you know, hope that we have support like, you know, she had been given. So it's pretty great. Pretty great to be able to learn and work and be in a community with that incredible young woman and yeah, I'm very lucky. Paige Williams: The generosity of the human spirit never ceases to amaze me. Whitney: Totally. Paige Williams: Whitney, thank you for the impact you've had and that you will continue to have and for doing this interview. I appreciate you. Whitney: Thank you so much. Paige Williams: That was a good one. Holy sh