Latest / Technically Sound Strategy / Episode 40 - From Concept to Practice: Operationalizing New Tech in Law Firms With Pete Terryn
Transcript
- 0:01Welcome to Legal Marketing Radio, a production of LaFleur Marketing.
- 0:05This week, I chat with Pete Terryn, Director of Operations
- 0:07for New Wave Technology Partners.
- 0:10Pete and I spent some time talking about operationalizing new tech in law firms.
- 0:14In addition to his work with New Wave Technology Partners, Pete is passionate
- 0:18about artificial intelligence.
- 0:20He co founded the West Michigan AI Lab, a vibrant community hub dedicated
- 0:24to connecting AI enthusiasts with valuable insights and resources.
- 0:29He also brings AI expertise to a broader audience as co host of the
- 0:33popular podcast, AI Lab Unfiltered, where he engages expert guests and
- 0:38deep dives into their specialties.
- 0:41Beyond his professional endeavors, Pete is actively involved in his
- 0:44community as a high school basketball coach in Caledonia, Michigan.
- 0:47He balances his professional and community commitments with his role as a devoted
- 0:51husband and father of three teenagers.
- 0:54All right, Pete.
- 0:55Really glad to have you here with us today.
- 0:56So In our conversation leading up to this, we covered kind of a range of topics,
- 1:01but, in light of our audience and some of the things that I keep hearing about
- 1:06in this space, as I talk to lawyers, all over the country is really the
- 1:11operationalization of AI across the firm.
- 1:15And I think we're all in a growing evolutionary stage of that.
- 1:20And we use AI across our organization in a lot of different ways, but
- 1:24then the operationalization, of it is a separate thing.
- 1:27And so I know you've got a lot of experience in that space.
- 1:30So I guess, give me a little background help me understand how you, what
- 1:34your relationship with AI looks like and how you used it within your
- 1:38current role, if you would, please.
- 1:40Yeah.
- 1:41Thanks for having me.
- 1:42It's my favorite thing to talk about.
- 1:43So I'm glad to have an opportunity to do that.
- 1:46My own background, I'm not one of these people that's going to say that
- 1:49they started in machine learning, 20 years ago or anything like that.
- 1:53I'm Johnny come lately on the AI scene.
- 1:56I didn't really pay much attention to it until, GPT three came out.
- 2:00Just , two and a half years or so that I've been since then, though,
- 2:04really every day I'm reading about it.
- 2:06I've got multiple emails that come into my inbox that have daily digests of
- 2:11the news and what's happening with AI.
- 2:13It's kind of, I call it my soap opera, all the drama with all the
- 2:16big players and what they're doing.
- 2:19And then I'm, spending time on Reddit researching, different
- 2:22technologies that are.
- 2:24The different advancements with AI and how people are using it.
- 2:27I'm also been fortunate enough to speak in front of a bunch of businesses about
- 2:31AI, the Small Business Association of Michigan here, World Trade Week last fall.
- 2:37And also with another gentleman named Drew Veach who works with
- 2:41a company called BizStream here started a monthly AI meetup.
- 2:46Last year, last January, we've been doing that for over a year now, where
- 2:49we bring in featured speakers and folks from around the area to learn about AI.
- 2:54And we just launched our own podcast called AI Lab Unfiltered.
- 2:58I'm in it, I'm around it, I'm immersing myself in it.
- 3:02I'm just trying to meet as many people as I can and trying to build
- 3:05a really strong AI ecosystem here.
- 3:08As far as my background, I'm not a technical expert.
- 3:11I'm not, Writing AI agents or anything like that.
- 3:15I'm not a coder, but I love this stuff and I love talking about it and I love
- 3:19helping people become familiar with it and get over that fear of the unknown
- 3:23that's holding a lot of people back.
- 3:26I think that's the case operationally to get to the main topic here is,
- 3:32there is A lot of fear around it.
- 3:34And one of the fears is that I'm already so far behind that I can't start with AI.
- 3:39My, my competition's already so far ahead of me.
- 3:42I'm sure they're in some, dark room coding away and they're going to
- 3:46automate everything, drop their prices and take me out of the market.
- 3:50And the reality is, and I just talked, I had coffee with a gentleman this
- 3:55morning who went to South by Southwest.
- 3:57Last week and was hanging around a bunch of people in AI and one of the things that
- 4:01stood out to him and he came back and he said, nobody's hardly anywhere with this.
- 4:06There's very few companies that are doing anything with AI and
- 4:09everybody else thinks that everybody else is doing something with it.
- 4:13So it's not too late to start.
- 4:15This is a great time to start.
- 4:17You don't have to go back and do two and a half years of research to get caught up
- 4:21because the technology changes so quickly.
- 4:24That if you just started learning now, within a couple of weeks or a month, if
- 4:29you were to do just invest a half an hour to an hour a day, which is what I'm doing.
- 4:34You'd be caught up.
- 4:35Pretty darn good in that time.
- 4:38So don't let that fear hold you back.
- 4:40If you're thinking about implementing AI from an operation standpoint and
- 4:45the other one is that this is only for geniuses , to take on and you have to have
- 4:50a PhD in machine learning or artificial intelligence , to implement this.
- 4:55I don't have a college degree, so I can tell you that's not the case,
- 4:58and we've implemented some AI here at New Wave, so it's more about having,
- 5:04I think that's the first big key for me from an operations standpoint,
- 5:07is you have to have an AI champion.
- 5:09You have to have someone that's going to lead the charge.
- 5:13I just happen to be in a leadership role here, which helps.
- 5:17But you don't have to be, you don't have to have a director
- 5:20title or a c in your title , to implement AI in your organization.
- 5:24You should be connecting with those folks and sharing your passion for it and
- 5:28that you are knowledgeable in that area.
- 5:30And if they're smart, they'll use you as a way , to help implement it.
- 5:33So I think.
- 5:34The big thing really is identifying a champion first, and if you don't have one,
- 5:39maybe you need to hire one because if you don't, I think your chances of getting
- 5:43something implemented are pretty low so you might need to go look for somebody
- 5:47that's doing that or find a peer that you have a great relationship with learn what
- 5:52they're doing, if they're doing anything with AI, and this Join our meetup.
- 5:57If you're in West Michigan you'll bump into people and you'll learn who's doing
- 6:01what and how you can learn from them.
- 6:02But there's ways to do it.
- 6:04But starting, having a champion, I think, is that first one.
- 6:08Yeah,
- 6:10that makes sense to me.
- 6:11You covered some ground there.
- 6:12But one of the things that jumped out is the computer scientists, the
- 6:17data engineers, the folks that have been working in machine learning
- 6:20for years and years, like the change that we have experienced is not
- 6:25something that requires that level of education, that level of background.
- 6:29And I think one of the biggest misconceptions that I've run across is
- 6:33this idea that AI is brand new and that, all of these tools just appeared on the
- 6:39scene out of somewhere and they showed up.
- 6:42And the reality is AI has been around for quite some time and some of the
- 6:46functionality and some of the use cases that have been really cool.
- 6:50Have lived in that developer space and in that highly technical space
- 6:55and just haven't been able to bridge the gap and they haven't been able
- 6:58to bridge the gap because I think that organizational leadership was
- 7:03not prioritizing the implementation of that technology a few years ago.
- 7:08We built a tool that would basically.
- 7:11Pull in a bunch of case data from a trial attorney down in Louisiana.
- 7:15They gave us about 40, 000 records to train our model.
- 7:18We built a model.
- 7:18The model could then make some level of prediction if a case was
- 7:21going to be a paying case or not.
- 7:22So meaning if a plaintiff would come to the table with injuries
- 7:27with the correct coverage and the correct party at fault, right?
- 7:31And so we could analyze that and figure that out pretty quickly.
- 7:34But we didn't find it that much appetite for it because all the lawyers that I
- 7:38talked to didn't think it was possible and we'd show them, and they still
- 7:42just didn't, they didn't have buy in.
- 7:44And so I think the thing that has changed is that people like you and I hope me
- 7:49have looked at this and seen that the new use cases and how the companies
- 7:54behind it, I think have made it so accessible that it becomes available.
- 7:59But, to your point, like , it hasn't existed in the boardroom and I think
- 8:03that's just starting to happen now.
- 8:05I think the approach makes sense, having a champion, who's going to come in there.
- 8:09So if you don't mind, give me some examples of.
- 8:11How you've seen a successful implementation.
- 8:13Give me some like use cases where you've seen, where you've seen it work.
- 8:18Where the AI is actually doing work within the organization.
- 8:23Yeah, yeah, where you've built some processes, you've built some SOPs
- 8:26or something along those lines.
- 8:29Yeah one thing that we built that's another key to this is that it built
- 8:34its own AI policy for the organization.
- 8:36An acceptable use policy.
- 8:39We met as a leadership group and we determined pretty early on that if we
- 8:42were going to, and we're an IT firm, so we are concerned about things like
- 8:46data security and things like that.
- 8:49And we were starting to talk about AI in our quarterly all staff meetings
- 8:53and just me just trying to get people excited about it and ready to leverage it.
- 8:57And we said now people are going to start using it.
- 8:59What are they going to use it for?
- 9:01And how do we get ahead of that?
- 9:02So we created a policy that governs the proper use of it.
- 9:07And some of those, some of that policy is like the actual
- 9:12work that is generated with AI.
- 9:14If you're submitting it, that's your work.
- 9:18You can't if something goes wrong or you didn't research to make sure that
- 9:21it was factual and you present wrong information, you can't just go back
- 9:25and say, well, that's AI's fault.
- 9:27Well, no, that's, we want to be very clear that was your work.
- 9:30So for those that are listening and don't have an AI acceptable use
- 9:34policy, or they have one that doesn't have that in it, you can take that
- 9:38as a way to, to implement that.
- 9:40We still took that document and sent it to our lawyer for review to make
- 9:44sure that, it was a good document.
- 9:47So we still, it have that piece to it . But the drafting of it
- 9:50was more within our control.
- 9:52It more reflected our thoughts as a leadership team and
- 9:57what we were doing with it.
- 9:58We've also implemented AI as an augmentation to our technical staff.
- 10:04So we are a help desk for companies that don't have their own help desk.
- 10:09So solving PC issues and internet goes out or, security, things like that.
- 10:17Where our technicians are referencing using an AI tool.
- 10:22That we've built prompts around to help get to a faster determination
- 10:27of the technical issue for that client, and it helps categorize
- 10:32those tickets into a way that we can look them up easier in the past.
- 10:37And just.
- 10:38And this is, I think, the greatest and best use of AI.
- 10:41We talked about replacing people.
- 10:43No, I think the greatest and best use of AI is augmenting people.
- 10:47Giving them superhuman powers that they wouldn't have otherwise.
- 10:51So you're leveling everybody up.
- 10:53So you have a level one technician who comes in new to the industry.
- 10:57They've only been doing it for, six months or a year.
- 10:59They've got this second brain.
- 11:01now that can help get them to a resolution faster.
- 11:06Yeah, it makes sense.
- 11:07What are you doing in terms of controls?
- 11:09Like you mentioned you mentioned making sure that people realize and
- 11:13that people buy into the idea that your work is still your work, right?
- 11:17We actually just had an internal kind of lunch and learn, I think it
- 11:20was a brunch and learn technically to talk about copyright, right?
- 11:24What's trademarkable?
- 11:25What's copyrightable?
- 11:25What's important in our space?
- 11:27But we touched on a little bit of that, but what are some controls that you put
- 11:30in place, apart from just, that clear accountability, which I do think is huge.
- 11:34I don't want to underscore the importance of that, but what have
- 11:37you built out in terms of controls to but by department by area of focus.
- 11:42So we're not really producing anything that's externally.
- 11:46Facing aside from maybe some of our social media posts and some content there and
- 11:52we're not basing it off of something else.
- 11:55it's generative, it's based off of a topic, not necessarily a
- 11:58document where we say, hey, make something like this , we are mindful.
- 12:03Now, do we have.
- 12:04a policy that says don't do that and be lying if I said we did, but we've had
- 12:10enough of those conversations to say.
- 12:13We're not reproducing other people's work there
- 12:16More along the lines of, the IT space.
- 12:19So if someone writes some code, apart from just the ownership, right?
- 12:24Someone writes code.
- 12:25Have you modified your testing processes?
- 12:27, and I asked in line with, within a law firm, there are controls and mechanisms
- 12:32that need to be in place, right?
- 12:33So , one of the things that will happen is they'll take out a client,
- 12:36they'll get all the documents from the client and they'll write a demand
- 12:39letter and the demand letter says.
- 12:41Because of these circumstances, because this person was at fault,
- 12:44because they have the coverage, because of these injuries, we've
- 12:47documented those the liability ends up being X amount of dollars.
- 12:53Now, I could see a scenario where you enter all those
- 12:55pieces of information, right?
- 12:57Accident report, medical records.
- 12:59They enter that in and write a demand letter, but I could very
- 13:03easily see someone in a firm.
- 13:05Doing that using off the shelf chat GPT and then lo and behold, that data is being
- 13:12used to train the model on how somebody's , HIPAA protected, personally identifiable
- 13:16information is out there at least.
- 13:18Now you guys are dealing with that, but you are dealing with technical execution.
- 13:20Things can go wrong.
- 13:21So I guess, can you expound on the controls?
- 13:24From that perspective.
- 13:25Yeah, thank you for clarifying.
- 13:27So that is your data of training the model your data, especially proprietary data,
- 13:34leaving your environment is a big concern when it comes to using these AI tools.
- 13:40In my experience, when I'm speaking with different groups, I'll recommend 1 of
- 13:442 platforms that have been very vocal about, at minimum, giving you a toggle
- 13:49to say, don't train the data with my information, that'd be Microsoft and what
- 13:54they're doing with Co Pilot and OpenAI.
- 13:57You can.
- 13:58Now, whether or not they're doing what they're saying that they're
- 14:01doing , I don't work for either of those companies, so I'm not representing
- 14:04them, but if you read all the disclaimers, they're pretty adamant.
- 14:08And I have a friend who's a Microsoft AI MVP, and talk with him, and
- 14:13he works with Microsoft directly, and he feels pretty confident.
- 14:16his kids.
- 14:17Use is Microsoft AI in, the Azure EN environment.
- 14:21So if he trusts it I trust him and so , I trust it.
- 14:25Same with open ai, they're pretty clear about, you can flip that toggle and
- 14:28say don't train the model of my data.
- 14:31not to say that other platforms don't, but I haven't gone and researched all of
- 14:34them because those are the two that I use the most, but I think if you're just do
- 14:39your due diligence, whether you're going to a direct model, like open AI or a
- 14:45perplexity or Google Gemini, look for that and make sure that there's something that
- 14:51blatantly says we're not using your data.
- 14:54Now, what you could Also run into is you're buying a product that is what's
- 14:59called a wrapper around one of those models like a chat GPT and a lot of stuff
- 15:06like Harvey is a tool that law firms use.
- 15:09It's a wrapper that on chat GPT, that's the base model.
- 15:13So you would want to talk with that company to develop that wrapper and ask
- 15:18them to in writing what they're doing with that data to make sure that they're not
- 15:23allowing that data to train the model.
- 15:27And if they are, then it's up to you whether or not you want to
- 15:29feed that data into the model.
- 15:32Yeah, it sounds like AI is going to be the cause and the solution
- 15:35to many legal headaches, even within legal clients, right?
- 15:39For all of those reasons, we, I I didn't, fortunately I didn't make a big mistake,
- 15:43I've made the mistake early on talking about Chad GPT, and their pro level is
- 15:48being like one of the levels that doesn't use your model to train and you are
- 15:51right, like you have to shut that off.
- 15:55And it's not until you get to the team's version of chat GPT where
- 15:58it comes by default turned off,
- 16:00but that
- 16:01is not necessarily intuitive either.
- 16:03And I don't think that the process of shutting it off in
- 16:06the pro model is intuitive.
- 16:07So , I've been telling the clients that we work with that are more
- 16:11excited about AI that are more interested in experimenting, which I
- 16:13think is a really important part of.
- 16:15Operationalizing to just go to the teams, chat, GPT teams.
- 16:19I agree with Charlie's perspective though.
- 16:21If you can get into Azure, if you can get into open AI through Azure,
- 16:25I think that's a great way to do it.
- 16:26I think then you have a commitment from Microsoft and you have
- 16:29a commitment from open AI.
- 16:30So it seems like that's the best way to do it.
- 16:32I've not played too much within Azure because it seems like it's much more
- 16:36of a developer platform I've used copilot a little bit, so I guess,
- 16:41my next question and you tell me what you think, but which platforms
- 16:46do you feel excel in which areas?
- 16:49What are your go tos in your day to day?
- 16:52For a while the perplexity platform, which if folks aren't familiar with it, it was
- 16:57really, In a league of its own when it first came out because it was doing what
- 17:02other models are calling deep research.
- 17:04Yeah.
- 17:04Right now is where it goes and it does its own kind of self-directed research.
- 17:09I don't know how nerdy , you want to get with this, but, um, super nerdy.
- 17:13So nerdy.
- 17:14Go all the way, man.
- 17:15All all the way into nerdy land.
- 17:17. Alright,
- 17:18so I, there, they're still very strong in that area, but the what's this whole
- 17:24cat and mouse game with these frontier labs is as soon as they see somebody
- 17:29else doing something cool, it's only a matter of months before, sometimes weeks
- 17:33before they're doing it themselves.
- 17:35Yeah, so I would still say they're the clubhouse leader there because
- 17:40they've been doing it longer.
- 17:42A great platform.
- 17:43Perplexity.
- 17:44When you're when you want to do something From a real research standpoint.
- 17:47And so what it'll do is you'll come to it with a prompt.
- 17:51And you'll say, I wanted, I just did this a couple weeks ago.
- 17:55I wanted to get, March Madness was coming up and I wanted to have a
- 17:58new TV that was great for sports.
- 18:00So I had a great, refresh rate and the whole thing.
- 18:03So I asked it to, research the best TV to watch sports with.
- 18:07And it took, I don't know, five, 10 minutes of, and it came back with.
- 18:12a whole breakdown of the different TVs.
- 18:16And the cool thing before it even started was that it asked me a couple of questions
- 18:20like, what size are you looking for?
- 18:21And is there a specific brand that you prefer?
- 18:25And I said, Nope, just go find , the best TV.
- 18:27And it came back with its own research, probably six or eight different
- 18:30TVs, links to where I could buy them on Amazon and the whole thing.
- 18:34So if you're doing that kind of research, I think Perplexity is still
- 18:37the leader, but Gemini can do that now.
- 18:39OpenAI has that now with the different chat GPT models.
- 18:43For those of you who are coding inclined, you like to write code, Claude is
- 18:48the place to go for coding right now.
- 18:51I'm not a coder, I'm not a developer, but I've read enough
- 18:55and learned enough about it to know that's the place to go for that.
- 18:58OpenAI, their newest 4.
- 18:595 model of chat GPT is supposed to be the most emotionally accurate.
- 19:05So if you're looking for a, someone that you can converse with and you
- 19:10want a more human type response that they're the leader in more of that
- 19:15emotional intelligence right now.
- 19:18And then, Google, I think is cool.
- 19:20I keep wanting to, and I go back and forth between chat GPT and Google's Gemini.
- 19:26There's a something that I really I'm hoping that and I think they just they're
- 19:30figuring it out right within the last week or so where they're tying it into
- 19:35all your past emails, all of your files, all of your search history and everything.
- 19:39And learning about you and becoming more of that personal assistant.
- 19:44And that's where I feel like Gemini is going.
- 19:48They're not there yet, but they're starting to pull all that together.
- 19:51Google knows so much about us.
- 19:53You know, and we live our lives on our computers and our phones now.
- 19:57And so much of that is through Google search and all that.
- 20:01I think, when I think about how, what I want AI to do for me, generally,
- 20:05would be to be an assistant.
- 20:07That person who I can go to and ask them to do things, or ask them to remember
- 20:12something about me, or make suggestions based on what it knows about me.
- 20:16So that's, I feel like Google's poised to really do that part of it.
- 20:21That all makes sense to me.
- 20:22Those are most of my daily drivers.
- 20:24I don't do too much on Gemini.
- 20:26Because I think Google does already know way too much about me and
- 20:28I'm a little paranoid like that.
- 20:30That said, I'm on Perplexity and I use all of Perplexity all the time and Perplexity
- 20:35just rolled out a couple weeks ago.
- 20:36They just rolled out.
- 20:38The ability to have access to your file stores through SharePoint, which I
- 20:41found a lot of value in but that's kind of , my personal, my rundown is I use
- 20:46chat GPT for most of my daily driving.
- 20:48I use the Perplexity I don't remember if it's Perplexity Teams or Pro but
- 20:53I have that tied into my SharePoint data stores so I can ask, pertinent
- 20:57questions access information there.
- 20:59I do use Copilot actually quite a lot just because I can ask, about
- 21:03my schedule, about things that are coming up, I can find documents in
- 21:06SharePoint for a lot of our audience, I think that they're almost all of
- 21:10their document storage lives in, a file line or neos or cloud Lex or something
- 21:16like that which I think it opens up an entire different conversation, right?
- 21:21If you're using a case management or a CRM or something like that,
- 21:25then you have different needs.
- 21:26And I think those need to be, those need to be looked at individually.
- 21:30And then I use Claude actually for a lot of writing, if I need to write
- 21:33something, I generally go to Claude.
- 21:34I do use Google for I use their, what is it Google LM, their Oh, and
- 21:40Notebook LM.
- 21:41Notebook LM, yep, I use that when I want to take in a lot of information
- 21:44learn quickly about a topic.
- 21:46I wonder what I don't really mean this as a question, but you're walking
- 21:49away in, but the Dunning Kruger effect that AI is going to usher in,
- 21:54I think, is going to be profound.
- 21:57I've started to see that already, where someone plugs into AI and then
- 22:02Minutes later thinks that they're an expert in a field and it's oh man you
- 22:07learned this much And it looks so easy.
- 22:11And then there's that the rest of the curve right where it's like Well,
- 22:15you it's you were able to pick up the guitar and learn how to play,
- 22:18you know smoke on the water You got a ways to go Yeah I'm curious what
- 22:25that's going to look like within our society as the years go on, because
- 22:28, it's such a low bar to get on board.
- 22:31I think it just augments what's already happening.
- 22:34You see it on social media where people are going off half cocked
- 22:37with their opinion that's probably based on very little fact and AI just
- 22:44bolsters that it just reinforces it because now they got something they
- 22:47can point back to and say, well, look, it's chat GPT says it right here.
- 22:51Well, it's still wrong.
- 22:52It's not, that doesn't mean that it's fact just because an AI model said something,
- 22:58you know, I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the term hallucination.
- 23:01It's a real thing and you need to research your answers
- 23:04before you, stand behind them.
- 23:07Yeah, most of our clients live through the 60s, so they've got a
- 23:09different idea of what that means.
- 23:11But, uh, they're coming around.
- 23:14I appreciate it, Pete.
- 23:17Do you want to leave us with what is one thing that a lawyer should do today to dip
- 23:24their toe in the space, in your opinion?
- 23:27Yeah, if I look back in probably the biggest mistake that I've made
- 23:34in implementing AI is Thinking that just because I was the one that
- 23:39was learning about it meant that it was going to get implemented.
- 23:43And if I had to do it over again and how I'm going to change it moving forward
- 23:47is I need to train everybody on it.
- 23:49I, we need to whether it's some kind of a platform where you earn a certificate
- 23:53or we do lunch and learns or something.
- 23:56You have to train the organization.
- 23:58Your adoption rate is going to improve dramatically.
- 24:02I've worked with a bunch of technical people.
- 24:05You would think it'd be the easiest group of people to get
- 24:08on board with AI, and it's not.
- 24:10And I scratch my head a lot, and just, and actually just getting, preparing
- 24:16for this, it kind of dawned on me as I was looking at different things, like
- 24:20So I was reading success stories about implementing AI, and a lot of it came
- 24:25from just general and broad education.
- 24:28And I think that's, that's the key, I think.
- 24:31Yeah, I agree.
- 24:32It had always been that I would tell everybody, regardless of the position they
- 24:36started with us, and they need to learn to be good writers, good communicators.
- 24:41And if you can write a good convincing email, then that is
- 24:46a skill that you're never going to be sorry that you developed.
- 24:49Yeah.
- 24:50And I think that to your point, we're at a spot now where if you
- 24:54could write a good prompt, that is a skill that you're gonna need for
- 24:57the rest of your career, you know?
- 24:59Exactly.
- 24:59Um, so it'll be interesting to see how that comes along.
- 25:02And then uh, I appreciate your time, man.
- 25:04It's funny, like right before we got on this, I just got this in the mail here.
- 25:07This is a pendant.
- 25:09Because I too have been bitten by the bug and like, if it came out, I've tempered
- 25:14myself a little bit, but I got the glasses with, you know, I got the glasses with
- 25:18the microphone in it and all that stuff.
- 25:20I just got this one today.
- 25:21So this came out, we'll see how the pendant does, but I appreciate your
- 25:24perspective, Pete, your insights.
- 25:26This is really helpful.
- 25:27I think that the folks listening to this will get some benefit from it too.
- 25:30So thank you so much.
- 25:32Yeah, my pleasure.
- 25:33I love talking about it.
- 25:34Like I said, so you're gonna have to cut me off or I'll, or I'll keep going.
- 25:38A big thank you to Pete for joining us today.
- 25:40You can find Pete on LinkedIn or check out a West Michigan AI Lab Meetup, which
- 25:44you can learn more about on Meetup.Com.
- 25:48Legal Marketing Radio is a production of LaFleur Marketing.
- 25:50Find us at LaFleur.Marketing and on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.