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Developmental Trauma: What It Is and How to Heal It in Midlife · The Uplifters

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  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Uplifters, you know how much I love experimenting and trying new things.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Uplifters.
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  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm Aransas Savas and I've spent the last 20 years at the intersection
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  SPEAKER_01: of behavior change research and coaching,
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  SPEAKER_01: helping midlife women do big, brave things.
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  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I've really been eager to understand better for myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: for my clients,
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  SPEAKER_01: and hopefully for you too,
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  SPEAKER_01: is how our early lives influence our willingness and our readiness
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  SPEAKER_01: to feel like we are capable of doing big, brave things.
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  SPEAKER_01: I talk a lot in my book and in my work about midlife as a time of reintegration,
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  SPEAKER_01: a time to bring the parts of ourselves that got quieted or shrunk
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  SPEAKER_01: for whatever reason together.
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  SPEAKER_01: And today's guest has a really unique experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think just wildly eye-opening perspective on this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Siva Lea Scheinberg,
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  SPEAKER_01: who is a developmental trauma theorist and clinician
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  SPEAKER_01: who has spent nearly two decades practicing in New York,
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  SPEAKER_01: working with complex psychological trauma,
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  SPEAKER_01: disassociation,
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  SPEAKER_01: attachment disturbances,
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  SPEAKER_01: high control family systems,
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  SPEAKER_01: religious trauma,
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  SPEAKER_01: And what she describes is the survival architectures
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  SPEAKER_01: that form around what you'll hear her describe as interrupted development.
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  SPEAKER_01: She's the creator of the Developmental Trauma Decoded Framework.
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  SPEAKER_01: And today we're gonna talk about what developmental trauma actually is,
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  SPEAKER_01: how it shows up and women,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe like you,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe like me,
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  SPEAKER_01: who from the outside look like they have it all together,
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  SPEAKER_01: but maybe on the inside feel like something is missing or disoriented
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  SPEAKER_01: or disintegrated.
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  SPEAKER_01: And why,
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  SPEAKER_01: my friends,
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  SPEAKER_01: midlife,
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  SPEAKER_01: This time that we are in right now is such a profound and important moment
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  SPEAKER_01: for revisiting our interrupted self.
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  SPEAKER_01: The one that maybe got hidden so that we can find our way to a true internal reintegration.
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  SPEAKER_01: Tipelea,
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  SPEAKER_01: thank you so much for bringing your decades of experience and wisdom here today
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  SPEAKER_01: to share with us.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's such an honor to be here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
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  SPEAKER_01: So when we say the word developmental trauma,
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the word trauma is thrown around a lot.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I know sometimes there's like lowercase trauma, capital T trauma.
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  SPEAKER_01: Many times it's talked about a single dramatic event, like a car accident, a war, grief.
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  SPEAKER_01: Tell us what this really means for you and your work.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So...
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  SPEAKER_00: I think like,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we say,
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  SPEAKER_00: trauma has been bandied around and it's become almost like a catchphrase,
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  SPEAKER_00: catch all for anything difficult.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when we go with the research, that isn't quite what we're looking at.
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  SPEAKER_00: Trauma used to be defined as an event that absolutely is,
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  SPEAKER_00: takes away the natural ability to integrate into our daily lives.
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  SPEAKER_00: So an event that's just so overwhelming.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then Diana Fosha,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think probably 2019 talked about Trauma being an overwhelming event in the space
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  SPEAKER_00: of unbearable aloneness.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's deep, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: But I also look at the Bessel van der Kolk research, 2005, 2019, 2021.
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  SPEAKER_00: He kept on kind of redoing it in different academic journals about the space
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  SPEAKER_00: of childhood experiences that were disruptive in a perhaps a way
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  SPEAKER_00: that we wouldn't always think of.
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  SPEAKER_00: For example,
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  SPEAKER_00: Family secrets,
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  SPEAKER_00: growing up with addiction,
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  SPEAKER_00: having a shutdown parent where the child doesn't get a chance to feel that she,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to use she,
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  SPEAKER_00: generic she here, is comforted, delighted in, wanted, cherished, protected.
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  SPEAKER_00: Growing up without that is also developmental trauma.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so what is the effect of developmental trauma?
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  SPEAKER_00: In women, especially the women that I see, it's two big pieces.
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  SPEAKER_00: One is what's called anxiety and depression, but is really decades of not being seen.
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  SPEAKER_00: Connected with what looks again like anxiety and depression, but is incredible hypervigilance.
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  SPEAKER_00: Inability to rest, that just burns out the body.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so does it, Everyone have developmental trauma?
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  SPEAKER_00: No, no, actually not.
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  SPEAKER_00: The tell is very often when you talk to somebody and they're unable to take
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  SPEAKER_00: in their own goodness,
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  SPEAKER_00: like you'll reflect something back to them and they'll be,
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  SPEAKER_00: no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't apply to me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or they'll deflect it and they're unable to take Small kindnesses,
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  SPEAKER_00: small act of generosity, they give and they cannot receive.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's unusual to help.
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  SPEAKER_01: So interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about uplifters,
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  SPEAKER_01: purpose-driven women,
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  SPEAKER_01: it is women who derive a sense of meaning from service to others,
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  SPEAKER_01: from connected relationships.
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  SPEAKER_01: We see this tendency to overgive.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am certainly an overgiver.
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  SPEAKER_01: Based on that definition,
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  SPEAKER_01: it kind of feels like Literally everyone I know and work with is somebody
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  SPEAKER_01: who has trouble asking for support, but is really, really good at giving it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that is who I see.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's so much of where the pain comes from.
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  SPEAKER_00: People who sit with me very often will talk about themselves in
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  SPEAKER_00: the most disparaging terms that they would never, ever talk to.
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  SPEAKER_00: Their nine-year-old daughter,
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  SPEAKER_00: their 20-year-old niece,
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  SPEAKER_00: their 35-year-old employee,
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  SPEAKER_00: they would never think that way,
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  SPEAKER_00: never mind speak that way,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they will talk about themselves in the harshest, most condemning terms.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that internal voice, what I call in my book, the inside voice, is very often an interject.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a voice from childhood that was adopted as our own.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's not accurate, but it is so painful to listen to.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's hard to say this is about a they because clearly this is about me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we expect more of ourselves than others.
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  SPEAKER_01: We talk less kindly to ourselves than we would others.
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  SPEAKER_01: And part of the challenge I expect in this is
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  SPEAKER_01: that those are highly rewarded characteristics for women and Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it's exactly what you're saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the roots run really deep because there's so much like kind
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  SPEAKER_00: of wellness stuff out there,
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  SPEAKER_00: which really has its place and it can be lovely and helpful.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is holding two truths at the same time, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: You cannot outrun this.
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  SPEAKER_00: You cannot script this.
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  SPEAKER_00: You cannot kind of incite this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is because if you could, you would have done it already.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can't affirm your way out of this.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can't think positively enough that it will kind of move because if it's
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  SPEAKER_00: a developmental trauma piece,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you were growing, there were things that were missing.
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  SPEAKER_00: So think of like a young sapling or a tree.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not quite having enough sunshine,
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  SPEAKER_00: not having enough soil that was embedded with nutrients,
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  SPEAKER_00: having to grow around a rock or a boulder.
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  SPEAKER_00: As they're growing, they will adapt, they will survive.
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  SPEAKER_00: People are incredible.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's still stuff that's missing.
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  SPEAKER_00: So by the time that tree grows to maturity, it's a little bent.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a little vulnerable, I would say.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's a difference between perhaps,
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  SPEAKER_00: I would say this next generation where Hopefully we've done such a good job
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  SPEAKER_00: that they're not growing up with developmental trauma, hopefully.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whereas they- Probably not.
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  SPEAKER_00: Probably not, but hopefully, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully it's not like it's a piece of advice that's helpful.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really going back into the past and redeveloping the capacities
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  SPEAKER_00: that were interrupted as one was growing up.
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  SPEAKER_01: The women you're talking about, I imagine, are vastly rewarded for over-functioning.
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like when you read Katika's book,
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  SPEAKER_01: Confidence Coach for Girls,
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  SPEAKER_01: a lot of her research centers on the fact that our shrinking behaviors,
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  SPEAKER_01: our self-diminishing is rewarded more frequently in girls than boys,
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  SPEAKER_01: but in academic settings, in professional settings.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have a double standard as women that we're expected to
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  SPEAKER_01: in some ways behave like men,
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  SPEAKER_01: but do it in such a cautious way that makes everyone else so comfortable
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  SPEAKER_01: that it all just ends up feeling like a big murky mess.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like that's very much related to what you're talking about here,
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  SPEAKER_01: that these women were saying, okay, I'm going to go hide parts of myself.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to diminish parts of myself and internalize some shame about who I am.
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  SPEAKER_01: And end up just feeling confused and lonely even from themselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: Alienated from themselves.
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  SPEAKER_00: There were real parts that were underdeveloped.
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  SPEAKER_00: So just to give a little bit of my background, just how I got to this research.
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  SPEAKER_00: My dad was a Holocaust survivor, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I shared that with you.
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  SPEAKER_00: He was a Holocaust survivor.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm the youngest of somebody much, much older.
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  SPEAKER_00: Fun fact, he, not fun, but...
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  SPEAKER_00: He was in a back-to-back bunker with Anne Frank.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of get that historical framework.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as a kid, the next time he saw his mother, he was a father of six.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm the 10th child.
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  SPEAKER_00: I grew up where there was incredible survival instincts.
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  SPEAKER_00: The whole generation was building and creating and expanding and
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  SPEAKER_00: And I knew something was missing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was so curious, like what?
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  SPEAKER_00: I knew all the terrible things that happened.
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  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, what was missing developmentally?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like they were trying to survive all these years.
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  SPEAKER_00: But all those moments of nourishment,
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  SPEAKER_00: comfort, stability, being delighted in, it just wasn't there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was so curious as a small child, a 9, 10, 11, 12.
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember looking for words to describe this and being unable to do so.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I actually remember taking the subway down to the 42nd Street Library and kind
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  SPEAKER_00: of looking,
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  SPEAKER_00: walking up and down the shelves,
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  SPEAKER_00: looking,
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  SPEAKER_00: is there some book that tells me like this,
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  SPEAKER_00: these words that I'm looking for of like what, again,
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  SPEAKER_00: Diana Fosha talks about the sins of omission,
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  SPEAKER_00: things that didn't happen that leave such a mark on a human being.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I've been busy with this since I was about 11.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so is it, Just this sense of confusion and uncertainty that is caused by the hiding.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what does the damage.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, I think, I mean, yes and.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's less confusion than a child growing up in a situation where they're,
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  SPEAKER_00: again,
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  SPEAKER_00: not delighted and not comforted, not They don't belong to themselves in a way.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they create the survival architecture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's about seven different ways this looks.
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  SPEAKER_00: We talk about the ghost, where kind of people ghost themselves.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or the chameleon, where somebody becomes kind of able to adapt to every situation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or the warrior, where I will protect others.
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  SPEAKER_00: And deep down, it's like from, I wasn't protected.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's not necessarily from the big painful stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's those small moment to moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: not being seen,
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  SPEAKER_00: not being delighted,
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  SPEAKER_00: not being cherished and not being comforted or being someone being kind on
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  SPEAKER_00: a consistent basis,
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  SPEAKER_00: not being encouraged,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is why your Uplifters fills a space in people's hearts that is so needed.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: To be uplifted and encouraged is such a gift.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm taking from this two things.
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  SPEAKER_01: One is a question.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is this, is it the case?
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  SPEAKER_01: And you have these beautiful archetypes and they're listed on her website,
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  SPEAKER_01: which we'll share in the show notes.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think you just ran through most of them,
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  SPEAKER_01: but my hope is that people can go and check those out and...
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  SPEAKER_01: Consider how they relate to their experience of life and the experience
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  SPEAKER_01: of life maybe of people that they love.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so is each one in essence an overcorrection of emotions?
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  SPEAKER_01: The gap that was experienced in childhood.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you talked about the warrior wasn't protected, so they become the warrior.
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  SPEAKER_01: And is that essentially what happens with each of them?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's an underdevelopment, which, like you said, turns into an overcorrection.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're going back to the tree for a second, like the branches on your plant.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are some parts that are going to flower next year, right?
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: But with adults,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's a little trickier because if we were just talking about something
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  SPEAKER_00: that would develop later, like a late bloomer, that's not a trauma response.
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  SPEAKER_00: What we're talking about is these incredible,
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  SPEAKER_00: beautiful women that I work with who know so much for others,
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  SPEAKER_00: but there's an internal emptiness of like, I don't know who I am.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know what I could do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know what I can provide.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know what I can give.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet, When it's all quiet, who am I?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not from a place of self-discovery, but a place of pain.
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  SPEAKER_00: Usually that is a lack of being mirrored who you are.
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  SPEAKER_01: That makes so much sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: It begins with the question, who are you really, really?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so how do you, in your work, help people answer that question?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because we are so minimized in our complexity.
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  SPEAKER_01: In order to fit in,
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  SPEAKER_01: in order to feel acceptable and accepted and safe and a part of community,
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  SPEAKER_01: to have jobs,
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  SPEAKER_01: to have relationships, we have to lead with just a narrow version of ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so how does that work together in your work to find and accept
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  SPEAKER_01: and see your whole self, but also to be a part of society, which is so important.
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  SPEAKER_01: Alienating to that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's really tricky, to be honest.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really tricky.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: when people come in,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the things that I really do is have a very dedicated amount
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  SPEAKER_00: of sessions dealing with decoding the trauma,
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  SPEAKER_00: not just kind of talk therapy,
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  SPEAKER_00: but looking at a map,
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  SPEAKER_00: looking at events that have happened,
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  SPEAKER_00: looking at a family genogram, kind of like a family.
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  SPEAKER_00: We kind of map out the family and extend the family and patterns in the family.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we talk about creating a roadmap.
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  SPEAKER_00: A roadmap to redevelopment, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I talk about sometimes from feeling defective or feeling broken,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is also another tell of developmental trauma,
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  SPEAKER_00: to feeling developed, to feeling, you can put up the word safety, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: All this is around safety, internal deep safety.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think the piece that we start with is belonging to yourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: People have a lot of difficulty with the word worth, like you're worthy.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of one of these phrases that get bandied around.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if I would say, is each part of you welcome?
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you belong to yourself truly?
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  SPEAKER_00: Most people will buzz and say, no, no.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a second piece, which is a shame piece.
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  SPEAKER_00: For many people, 45 through 60, not knowing who they are, feel shameful.
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  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel like a curiosity or an exploration of self.
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  SPEAKER_00: It feels deeply shameful.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the regret and shame can get stuck.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so interesting because you're right.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's so much of society that says,
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  SPEAKER_01: like, there is an acceptance of finding yourself and looking for yourself in youth.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we have,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: culturally a tendency to have a more limited relationship Fixed mindset
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  SPEAKER_01: about midlife and beyond.
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  SPEAKER_01: There is,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: in general, a belief that you are what you are and you're
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: not going to change.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that if you don't know yourself by now, sorry, sweetie, too late.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet, in my work, it seems that... And again, maybe it's just who I spend my time with.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: But in my work, it seems as though...
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's on the contrary that some of the deepest exploration and discovery are done
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: in midlife and beyond that that is where reintegration is happening.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: What are you seeing in the research and in your work?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my sub niches is being a therapist to therapists, which I absolutely love.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And people very often go into this field sometimes at 45, at 50, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll have this kind of mindset like, oh, it's why didn't I start earlier?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's too late.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Dr. Edith Eager was one of my mentors.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: She died this year.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think she was 97.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to her at 95 with her eyes twinkling.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she was still talking about learning and still talking about growing
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: and still talking about becoming and still talking about belonging.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I categorically reject this notion of sorry, sweetie.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are who we are.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: We are, I think, who we've developed into being.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we can continue to develop to our greatest astonishment, I would say.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: We are capable of so much more than we realize when we are able
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: to redevelop these pieces that we're missing.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you say belong to yourself, you're saying, and it's not too late to do that.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I still like, I think it's still really hard to wrap our brains around.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you do this when as women,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: especially women, I mean,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we teach little girls from earliest life this idea,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: boys will be boys,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: and you are at the mercy of the stares and the
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: comments of boys in particular,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: but in society in general, there really is this sense of women should tolerate.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that is inherently not belonging to yourself.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is shape-shifting.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And America Ferrara, I think expressed it so powerfully in the Barbie movie.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a very good reason that her speech on contradictions went so viral
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: because I think she was able to say something there
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: that women haven't heard repeated.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So how do women find their way to...
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Belong to themselves again?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good question.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is why I wrote this book that's sent me out soon on belonging of,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: and it's experiential exercises.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of accompany you through life and accompany you through this journey,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: but, and this is a real book, there is a risk.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be fallacious.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: It would not be true to say like, this is all sunbeam and moonlight and stars.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Damn.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yes.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Shucks.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really painful.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's risking safety because the body created these architectures because of safety,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: because when it's not safe at home to be who you are and
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: who you are is not mirrored back to you,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: but there's only one part of you is mirrored back to you,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: your capable self, your good girl self.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: The other parts of you are undeveloped.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: It really feels like you're going to rock the boat to start developing yourself.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that is true.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the people who are meant to be with you are meant to be with you.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: The people who push back at this in your life,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: it's time to take a good hard look at what's really happening.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's both freeing and liberating and deeply difficult.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that answered your question,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: but Well, I think you started to point to, I certainly hear you on, it is hard.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then I hear you saying, and there will be a social cost to this.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Who you spend your time with will shift as a result of demanding better for yourself.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the other taxes these women pay as a result of this change?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it really look like?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like...
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be hard to even get ourselves around
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: what the reward is to work like this.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really hear that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to go back to the example you gave just to give choices
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: because people think this is sometimes like a harsh condemnation of others.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't want to be around you.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would go much gentler, which is...
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: There becomes an internal ability to track your own emotions and
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: to feel your own feelings on your own terms so that you have choices, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: The choice may be to keep somebody in your life but respond to them from
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: an internal space of safety and I would say dignity internally.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean throwing people away at all but it means
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: that perhaps you Something nasty or something narcissistic lands very differently.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I don't know one woman who wouldn't change for, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's breaking generational cycles because so much
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: of our histories are growing up with people who perhaps were diminished
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: or were narcissistic or were neglectful.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there's such a piece of epigenetics here of changing Our histories
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: and our life trajectories so that the next generation doesn't have to work so hard.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And relationships do get deeper.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Relationships with,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: and those are the three layers,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: relationships with yourself,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: being able to look in the mirror and staying present with yourself,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: loving yourself,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: forgiving yourself, being able to be with people so you're not deeply lonely inside.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then feeling like you belong in the world,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: that you can go Go through your life not feeling like a misfit or that you're broken
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: or damaged in some terribly painful internal way.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it almost sounds like it's less distraction and
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: overthinking and more being.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote down the benefits as being a better relationship with yourself,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: with others and breaking your generational curses.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, literally.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually on a group roundtable discussion for survivors of spiritual abuse.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they went around and they were talking, tell us who you are.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm a human that goes on being.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have titles.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: We have lots of alphabet soup that we could pull up.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But in truth, we are humans that go on being.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: I assume that what you mean by that is that all of this disintegration
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: and this Disrupted development gets in the way of the being.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes more performative.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and you don't even realize you're performing until you hit this midlife piece
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: and there's a transition or a loss or a grief or you have many more resources
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: that you had when you were 20 and you're like, what have I done?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait, this game was rigged all along.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: One minute.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when people start to Do this work.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think too growing up,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: don't we assume that everyone else is growing up the way we are and
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: that everyone's lived experience is ours.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had a woman on the show not long ago who discovered in midlife
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: that she actually had like a remarkably interesting brain.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: She's now,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: being studied by eight or nine different scientists because her brain is so off
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: the Off the charts, unusual in so many ways, but she had no idea.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And her key takeaway from that was now after having,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: and she's a researcher and journalist,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: she said after researching the nuances and the difference of the brain,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: to believe that anyone is seeing the world or experiencing
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: the way we do is just absolutely laughable.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's almost silly when you think about it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh no, right.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like colorblindness is probably the most visceral version of that
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: where you're like, you think that's gray?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I see that as a completely different color.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's somewhat true, I think, for pretty much everything else.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: the way my mother describes her childhood is so different than
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: the way her sister described their childhood because they experienced it differently
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: and they remembered it differently.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they were mirrored differently.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's the mental trauma piece.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: They were...
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if this journalist, right?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: This was somebody mirrored back to her.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your brain is so specific.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure as she's gone through this, her brain is being scrutinized in so many ways.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: It certainly changed her appreciation of it.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: But she grew up thinking, well, everybody's brains are the same and I'm just like everyone else.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whoops.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like all these like wild adaptations.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: She talks about how she's totally face blind, like 100%.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yet she's married.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: She has lifelong friends,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: but she realized that they all had extremely specific physical characteristics.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was like,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: she looks back and she's like,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: oh, I was only friends with the one girl with blue hair in my high school.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: That makes so much sense.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Makes so much sense.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So as you know, my book is called Courage Capital.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about the courage it takes to do these things and And so one of
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: the things I learned from you,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: you talk about how very scary it is to disrupt our mental apple cards
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: and our own realities.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: What helps and supports survivors of this disruption increase their willingness,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: readiness, and courage to create this change in their lives?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Such a great question.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think for most people, Especially people who come in ready and willing to work.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's always a part of somebody who's not ready and willing
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: and that's perfectly acceptable and normal and should be that way.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Not to use a should, but you know what I mean?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is that way.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the pain of staying the way you are outweighs anything else.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: The pain of change, yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really does.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm gonna go to those pieces of finding your people to mirror back to your own courage.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually just talking to my bestie this morning and we were saying like,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about this podcast and we're saying how wonderful is it
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: that you can find your people later in life and you can find people
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: who will mirror back to you who you are and they'll see pieces in you
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: that you didn't see in yourself ever.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would say find your people and if you can't find your people,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: if people haven't made their way to Uplifters, find nature, right?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Find the vastness and the beauty of nature that is not cruel It's constantly evolving.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's really beautiful.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Another episode I will recommend here
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: for anyone listening is Christy Halverson's story because it speaks very directly to
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the last time we talked about this,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I told you that I was a little flummoxed as I'm writing
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: this chapter because every story is I'm referencing ultimately comes back to
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: a sexual reawakening.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I need to find other stories that express this reintegration
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: because surely they're not all about sex.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So just to share something like so true and so painful,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have been, I've worked with women, I think every stage of life.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Probably every type of cultural level.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make a difference if you grew up poor,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you grew up rich, if you grew up privileged, or if you didn't.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Most women have had some sexual trauma in their life.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's been sexual trauma that has been pushed to the side.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm gonna put this in quotes, worked on, but perhaps not reintegrated.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps that child or young girl or woman who was hurt There was
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: an unbearable aloneness to it,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: but there was also what got stunted, what did not develop as all this was happening.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I feel in this age group,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: there's such sexual reawakening because it starts to be put in perspective.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: It starts to be worked on.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: In Hebrew,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: one of the words that we use,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: chai means to live, and chiyut is the sexual life drive.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sexuality is a life force.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what gets reawakened.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what starts to re-flourish.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing a real shift to combining sexuality with intimacy.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And again, intimacy is about really being seen.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the threat of pregnancy is over.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the ability to come into one's own is so much more able to be reached.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And now people want to be seen.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not just have a sexual encounter, but to be seen.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: In their sexuality, which is a whole different doorway that we can walk through.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: When I zoom it out beyond sexuality, that feels very true.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I did a study of almost 2,000 women asking how they defined a good life in midlife.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it boiled down to three key things,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: which was feeling physically and mentally well,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: which we've certainly talked about here.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Being able to give to others that leave a positive impact.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And equally as important, having intimacy in our relationships.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in these answers,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: in the verbatims,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was mostly hearing having friendships and having
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: a mutually respectful relationship with colleagues and parents and partners, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all types of relationships, but it was intimate.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was meaningful and not surface level.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: We approach all this stuff with curiosity,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: not with that thing of like,
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: here's the only thing that's true,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: but I found it to be very true to people's experiences.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know your work is often described as making sense of people's lived experience,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: that people interact with your work and say, it all makes sense suddenly.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that people are hearing there that they're saying, I see myself.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: People will come in and very often categorize themselves
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: and give themselves these ways to describe themselves that are nouns.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have hypervigilance.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a people pleaser.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's all these nouns that go on.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm codependent.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, keep going.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: What is this list?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm codependent.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm lonely, which is not a noun, but I'm just lonely.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't belong.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I have this framework that I've developed over years of five pieces,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: five domains of development,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: which are belonging that Very early experience of coming into a place
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: where you're wanted.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a place in your parents' heart for you even before you're born.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Coming into place and that's Al Pesso's kind of research.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Belonging, identity, creating that tree that's supported enough that it grows upright.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So belonging, identity, trust.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And by trust, I don't even mean in yourself.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean before that.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Trust in reality.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Trust that reality won't fail you.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty deep piece for people who have had to survive very difficult experiences.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the Bites Framework.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: E is existential meaning.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that goes to this piece of wanting to matter so that you can matter for others
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: and that your experience matters.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And S is for shame, right?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Something that you're writing so much about.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about the belonging wound or the identity wound or the trust wound,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: it starts to shift from I'm a people pleaser to I'm struggling
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: with my identity wound.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when somebody says something to me, I say I'm fine before checking with myself.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a shameful thing.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's an identity wound that can be redeveloped.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody was talking about how she did this incredible Thanksgiving dinner
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: and she cooked and made this incredible experience and she's looking around
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: the table at her family.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: She felt so lonely.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a terrible feeling.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people can really relate to that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about that being the belonging wound,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: that there are pieces of herself that are so hidden.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even she doesn't quite know, but she's alienated from herself.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: So she can't belong with others if she doesn't belong to herself.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this framework that we talk about where it's a shame wound.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a true wound.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's hope for redevelopment.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of a lifelong sentence,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a people pleaser, which is really difficult and
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: quite untrue.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: There is a pretty significant body of research that shows we are more likely
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: to believe in identities than behaviors.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I am more likely to act like a writer if I say I am
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: a writer versus saying I write or I am a healthy eater versus I eat healthy.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear that echoed in your description here because I What you're saying
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: that can work the other way around too.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: If we identify in these really limiting ways,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: we believe that that is the end of the line for us.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we, again,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: end up with this fixed mindset around our ability to grow and change and move
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: through that because it is not who we are,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: it is how we are behaving as a result of our lived experience.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And a really cool way to look at this is Developmental trauma is all
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: about not having power and control in a very healthy way as a child.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that relates to adulthood,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: almost taking away your own power and control and giving yourself a fixed mindset.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is who I am.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of been changed from childhood to adulthood.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: What was done to you is now something that you're doing to yourself.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can I share a really cool quick study with you?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would love it.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there's a lot,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: especially in the EMDR world, there's so much talk about treating phobias, right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I very often get people who are like, look, I've done work around my fear of flying.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've done work around my fear of water.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still so terrified to fly or to swim.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I mean by developmental trauma roots because somebody's really worked on it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we start to talk about the trust wound.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in your life, what reality didn't hold?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, somebody's mom Died in a car accident from one day to the next.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Reality for a child is my parents are with me.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then one day her mom just wasn't.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an ontological fear here that reality won't hold.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm in a plane, maybe I'll just fall out of the sky.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm swimming, maybe the water won't hold me.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's often a deeper piece to this than meets the
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: eye.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the reason that your work Leads to this response of I see myself
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: because it is in essence zooming out far enough that we're able to see the parts
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: within the context of the whole.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is wildly enlightening and interesting and I think so hyper relevant
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: to our community of uplifters.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: So how can folks learn more about you and about working with you?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: So go to my website, zipaleah.com.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's Z-I-P-A-L-E-A-H. You can just contact me through there.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of resources on the website as well.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: No one should be alone.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And tell folks what your name means.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a pretty difficult name to say.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason I don't shorten it or change it is SIPA means it comes from
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: the root SIPISA, which is yearning for justice.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's my name, right?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: There is this real piece of waiting and hoping for this justice,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: redevelopment of self, what was meant to be all along, the dignity of a human being.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I just read the book, The Names, like everyone else in America.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone whose name is Aransas and who always,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: whose identity was shaped by that name as yours was,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big believer in the power of a name and certainly it's a beautiful example
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: of it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Tipalea,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: everyone on this show benefits from the wisdom and
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: inspiration of both the guests
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: and the people who inspire them.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: So who inspires you that you think we should talk to next to learn from?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I have this incredible friend and colleague.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Julianne Maxwelld.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: She is a sex therapist who is also a trauma therapist.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And she has this beautiful book out.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: She's just one of the wisest people in this field.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she might be your next best guest.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I will say we did an episode on sexual empowerment in midlife this year.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it was,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: it got the least comments and likes and sort of externally visible engagement
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: in social media.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it got like 10 times the episode downloads.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just saying we probably want to talk more about this than we're admitting.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: We really do.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: I will put links to Zipaleya's work in the show notes.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: I am just so grateful to you for being here and for all of us who need your work.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel so fortunate and grateful that you are in the world doing what you are doing
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: and that we have you as a resource to learn with and from both here and through
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: the rest of your work.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely going to go download the workbook and work my own way through it
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: because I know I'll learn so much.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Those of you listening,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: go to Zipalea.com to learn more from Zipalea and head over
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: to theuplifterspodcast.com.
• 42:57
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• 43:03
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• 43:08
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• 43:10
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• 43:14
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• 43:19
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• 43:23
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• 43:27
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• 43:36
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• 43:41
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• 43:45
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• 43:46
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• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Support our guests and the nonprofits that they lead and represent.
• 43:59
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• 44:04
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• 44:06
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• 44:10
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• 44:12
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• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you in the WhatsApp soon.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 44:23
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• 44:27
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• 44:30
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• 44:36
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• 44:39
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• 44:41
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• 44:42
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• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: of these beautiful stories.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Big love.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: Painted
• 45:00
  [music]
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: thing you did with your voice.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right, in the pre-course, right?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was like...
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Mommy, stop crying.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Mommy, stop crying.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're disturbing the peace.