Latest / Karl and Crew / The Cost of Discipleship with Dr. Erwin Lutzer & The Holy Spirit and Discipleship with Dr. Bill Thrasher

Transcript

The Cost of Discipleship with Dr. Erwin Lutzer & The Holy Spirit and Discipleship with Dr. Bill Thrasher · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S2: Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome what seems
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  S2: impossible and live as you never imagined.
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  S1: Start your morning with a laugh.
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  S2: Cold spaghetti's. Great. Okay.
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  S3: Okay, I disagree. I guess not. No, I guess certainly
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  S3: it is not. No. Okay, well, I'm going back.
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  S2: To my bachelor days. I guess I thought cold spaghetti
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  S2: was universally loved.
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  S4: I've never been known for, like, high levels of coordination.
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  S4: That's just. It feels like.
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  S2: I've never been known for high levels of coordination.
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  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S4: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S4: and you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S4: that would make it worth it.
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  S5: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S5: the life source, which is God.
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  S6: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S6: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S6: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S2: Well, we're kicking this morning off and this week off
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  S2: in grand fashion. We're talking discipleship. And remember, the Great
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  S2: Commission actually goes on to say, teaching them to observe
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  S2: all that I have commanded you. Oftentimes, discipleship is reduced
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  S2: down to a conversion experience. And then hopefully they grab
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  S2: enough knowledge as they hear a pastor preach. But it's
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  S2: way more intimate than that, isn't it, Ali?
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  S4: It is. Which is why we're really focused on discipleship
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  S4: this week with some special guests. Doctor Erwin Lutzer joining
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  S4: us right now, pastor emeritus of Moody Church. You also
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  S4: hear him on running to win a daily Bible teaching
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  S4: program right here on Moody Radio.
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  S2: Pastor, it's good to have you with us. I'm curious,
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  S2: where are you going to take us in the Word
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  S2: of God today? What is, for you the most salient
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  S2: point of discipleship.
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  S7: I'm going to Luke chapter 14, verse 25. Now great
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  S7: crowds accompanied him. So he turned and said unto them,
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  S7: if anyone comes to me, let him deny himself. Take
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  S7: up his cross, and he goes on and on. So
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  S7: here's the first thing that strikes me is that Jesus
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  S7: used discipleship to thin out the crowd. Not everybody followed
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  S7: Jesus from then on. And, you know, Carl and Ellie,
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  S7: even as we're talking to a lot of people this morning,
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  S7: not everyone is going to respond in a very proactive
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  S7: way to become a disciple. And so what we have
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  S7: to do is to realize that we are swimming as
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  S7: Christians in the world so much that sometimes we don't
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  S7: even live so distinctively with the distinction that Jesus Christ
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  S7: calls us to, and we're more worldly than we realize.
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  S7: I mean, we fit in so well. What we have
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  S7: to do is to recognize that discipleship is very countercultural.
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  S7: You know, it's Bonhoeffer, of course, who wrote the famous book,
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  S7: The Cost of Discipleship. And I think he makes the
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  S7: statement that when Christ calls a man, he comes and
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  S7: he bids him come and die. And of course, for Bonhoeffer,
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  S7: that's exactly what happened. But discipleship is really a deep
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  S7: sense of making Christ first in an extreme way. You know,
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  S7: we are so programmed in this world that we're always
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  S7: thinking of other things. Discipleship means a radical commitment to
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  S7: Jesus Christ and everything that's entailed.
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  S4: You know, you mentioned that the discipleship is used here
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  S4: by Jesus to thin the crowd, which goes against every
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  S4: every model for church growth or for evangelism is about,
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  S4: you know, to a certain extent, gathering a crowd. And
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  S4: we want a crowd of people to hear the gospel.
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  S4: One of the things we wrestle with often here on
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  S4: the show, which I'd like for you to speak to,
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  S4: is that if we're not careful, we can lower the
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  S4: bar so that more people can clear it when we
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  S4: tell people to, you know, even things that are well intentioned,
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  S4: but things like just slipping a hand in the air
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  S4: and nobody will see. Nobody's looking around or just praying
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  S4: a prayer. And we can in some ways, unintentionally mislead
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  S4: people into what it actually looks like to follow Jesus,
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  S4: speak to that alley.
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  S7: You've raised a very difficult question because on the one hand,
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  S7: salvation is a free gift. And I personally, and not
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  S7: everybody agrees, make a distinction between a believer who's come
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  S7: to saving faith in Christ and a disciple. In other words,
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  S7: not all believers are going to follow Christ in discipleship.
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  S7: We should never give the impression that once you've received
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  S7: Christ as Savior, it's the end of the ball game.
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  S7: As a matter of fact, proof of your salvation is
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  S7: going to be whether or not you seek to the
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  S7: best of your ability to follow through. And that, of course,
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  S7: involves discipleship. So on the one hand, we can't say, well,
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  S7: you have to be a disciple to be saved, because
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  S7: that means renouncing your family and all in terms of value.
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  S7: But on the other hand, the intention of salvation is discipleship.
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  S7: So yes, indeed, on the one hand, churches want crowds
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  S7: because they want the unsaved to hear the gospel. But
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  S7: on the other hand, you have to help people to
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  S7: understand that salvation is more than raising a hand. In fact,
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  S7: I think many people who raise their hands have never
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  S7: been saved. And even those who pray a prayer. I
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  S7: like to point out to people that prayer doesn't save you.
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  S7: It's not the prayer. It's Christ. And unless there's a
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  S7: work of the spirit within the heart, where there's a
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  S7: transfer of trust to Christ, I think we've given so
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  S7: many people the false impression that you are saved because
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  S7: you prayed a prayer, you raised your hand, you went
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  S7: forward even in a meeting, and there was no genuine,
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  S7: heartfelt recognition of your sinfulness. I've asked myself, why is
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  S7: it that so many people who profess Christ never follow through?
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  S7: I think it's oftentimes because they see salvation as an
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  S7: add on, as a good thing, and they do it
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  S7: without a sense of conviction of sin. At the age
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  S7: of 14, I came to know Christ as Savior. Now
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  S7: here's a farm boy. I hadn't gotten into any trouble
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  S7: the way in which it's defined today. But I was
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  S7: so burdened with my sin, I was overwhelmed with guilt.
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  S7: And that's what drove me to Christ.
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  S2: Love that.
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  S7: And that's why ever since that time, I know whom
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  S7: I have believed, and I have the assurance of faith
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  S7: because it was a matter of guilt and my need
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  S7: driving me to Christ. Now, is that true of people
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  S7: who raise their hands? Not necessarily. What they're asking for
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  S7: is God's help, not God's redemption.
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  S2: Yeah, I'm glad we're going here, Pastor Lutzer, because I've
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  S2: done a deep dive doing a lot of work on
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  S2: this right now. And it's interesting that the Prince of Preachers,
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  S2: Charles Haddon Spurgeon, About 250 years ago, there was a
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  S2: move toward what is commonly called now Decisionism, which is
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  S2: moving from an encounter with Jesus to a public encounter
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  S2: that may or may not indicate genuine, salvific experience. And
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  S2: Spurgeon was dead set against these altar calls. I didn't
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  S2: know that until recently. And he had rooms of inquiry in.
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  S2: His concern was that we've invited people to raise a
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  S2: hand when no one's looking around, walk down an aisle,
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  S2: pray a prayer, invite Jesus into your heart, or even
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  S2: accept Jesus, both of which are nowhere in the Scripture.
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  S2: How do we fix that? My general observation is Decisionism
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  S2: is still with us today, and we've led people into
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  S2: an illusion of salvation that many will say on that day, Lord, Lord,
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  S2: this is a big issue, pastor.
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  S7: And you know, you have articulated it perfectly. We've led
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  S7: people to believe that And salvation is a decision. And
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  S7: of course it involves a decision, but it's a decision
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  S7: of repentance, recognizing your need. It is not simply, you know, yeah,
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  S7: I need Jesus for my help. You don't need help.
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  S7: You need to be rescued. And if you don't see
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  S7: that you need to be rescued from your sin, your
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  S7: faith is probably going to be vain. It's going to
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  S7: fall short of regeneration. So we must preach to help people,
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  S7: to feel the weight of their sin so that they
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  S7: know this is not just a hand raise or a
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  S7: quick prayer. This is a turning from sin to Christ.
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  S2: Amen. So, pastor, it was a number of years ago,
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  S2: you were in studio with us and we, for the
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  S2: first time ever shared the real gospel on air. Gospel
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  S2: of recognition of sin and repentance. I feel prompted. We
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  S2: need to do that right now. What is the good news,
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  S2: Pastor Lutzer?
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  S7: Well, the good news makes little sense. Unless, first of all,
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  S7: you accept the bad news. The bad news is that
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  S7: we are deeply fallen people. And I want to speak
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  S7: to everyone listening at this moment. You are not only
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  S7: a sinner, but you are a sinner that is much
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  S7: more in need of help than you realize. And that's
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  S7: really true of all of us. We are deeply fallen.
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  S7: And unless you recognize your sinfulness, if you don't recognize
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  S7: your sin, you won't know exactly why you need a Savior.
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  S7: Now Jesus died for sinners. He didn't die for the
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  S7: righteous person who comes and says, I'm pretty good, but
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  S7: I could use some help. That's not the gospel. It is.
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  S7: You're a sinner and you recognize your sin, and you
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  S7: are convicted of that sin, and you say, Jesus, rescue me.
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  S7: And thank you for making a sacrifice on the cross
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  S7: that enables me by faith to receive the gift of
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  S7: eternal life. And that means forgiveness. It means from now on,
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  S7: I belong to you. And of course, your intention at
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  S7: that point would be definitely to follow Jesus, whatever that means.
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  S7: But you come helplessly. Nothing in my hands I bring
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  S7: simply to thy cross I cling. And so that's the gospel.
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  S7: And you can receive Christ even while you're driving a car,
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  S7: though I suggest you drive very carefully while you're praying.
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  S7: But if the Holy Spirit of God is speaking to
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  S7: you right now and saying, you know, I think that
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  S7: my faith was fake. I wanted God's help, but I
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  S7: didn't know I needed his rescuing and his deliverance. So
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  S7: I want to do that. And as many as received him,
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  S7: to those he gives the authority to become the children
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  S7: of God, even to those who believe on his name.
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  S7: And all throughout the listening area right now, there could
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  S7: be people who say, you know, I am a fake.
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  S7: I fooled myself. This is my moment when I leave
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  S7: that behind and acknowledge my desperate need as a sinner.
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  S2: Beautiful. Right now, all across the United States, Canada, and beyond.
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  S2: The Holy Spirit is working. It is a cry of
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  S2: the soul. It's not a patent prayer. It's not walking
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  S2: an aisle. It's not music in the background. It's God
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  S2: putting a new song in your heart. It's faith alone.
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  S2: It's acknowledging you're a sinner and saying, oh God, I repent.
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  S2: And today I turn from the broad path onto the
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  S2: narrow path. And if this is you today and you
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  S2: know it because the blues are bluer, the greens are greener,
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  S2: and your soul has a new song in its heart.
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  S2: It's one of hope. We want to welcome you to
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  S2: the family, and we want to help you in your
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  S2: first steps with Jesus Christ. And this is how we're
• 13:02
  S2: going to do it today.
• 13:03
  S4: Just text new NEW to 800 555 7898. Just that
• 13:10
  S4: one word new to (800) 555-7898. We're going to send just
• 13:17
  S4: a quick form for you to fill out. This is
• 13:19
  S4: going to allow us to have a member of our
• 13:22
  S4: team here follow up with you directly, help you get connected,
• 13:26
  S4: see if there's any way that we can support you.
• 13:28
  S4: Just text new to 805 557898.
• 13:32
  S7: What could be more precious to people who are struggling
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  S7: than the gospel. Just today I read Romans one. You
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  S7: know it is the power of God unto salvation, so
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  S7: it isn't human effort added to the divine work. It
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  S7: is entirely the divine work, but it is received by
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  S7: faith as the spirit enables.
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  S2: This is discipleship. It begins with the miraculous regeneration by
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  S2: the power of the spirit in the soul of men
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  S2: and women. This is new life. Text new to 805 557898.
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  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to cast and crew.
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  S2: Want to celebrate some people here? In the last few
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  S2: minutes that have truly come to a point of surrendering
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  S2: their all to Jesus Christ, recognizing he is the Savior
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  S2: of the world and the Savior of you. And it's
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  S2: beautiful to see. Uh 83, 48. 1937. Last four numbers
• 14:37
  S2: of your telephone number 83, 78, 1653, 34, 98, 54,
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  S2: 38 and 26, 97. Welcome to the family, and we're
• 14:51
  S2: grateful that God is doing this work in these folks. Allie.
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  S4: So grateful. And, you know, you come off such an
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  S4: important conversation with Doctor Erwin Lutzer. And, you know, the
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  S4: thinking about the cost of discipleship. Yeah. And when you
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  S4: sometimes it's just having it clarified for you because there's
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  S4: a lot you could be in church for a lot
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  S4: of years. And there are some things that are just
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  S4: sometimes not clear to you.
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  S2: Yeah, yeah. You almost get anesthetized to the good news
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  S2: by way of getting some bad information or incomplete information.
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  S2: And I'm not sure that everybody means harm. I think
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  S2: the attempt is many times to see as many come
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  S2: into the family of God as possible, but sometimes by
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  S2: lowering that bar, we actually cause people to live almost
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  S2: more blind than they were before they heard something. Because
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  S2: it's not the full truth of what Jesus really wants
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  S2: to do and wants to redeem your soul. He wants
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  S2: to change your life from the inside out, and he
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  S2: wants to take your sin and wash it away by
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  S2: the shed blood of Jesus. It's a powerful thing. Talking
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  S2: discipleship all week long. And I don't want any one
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  S2: of our parts here because we know we got a
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  S2: lot of you listening, like seven, 15 minutes at a crack.
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  S2: Big announcement today, and I've already rebranded it before we
• 16:07
  S2: announced it, but we've got to sign up for you.
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  S2: I was going to give you details, discipleship, a full
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  S2: week of experiencing the beauty and wonder of Alaska and
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  S2: opening up the word with Michael Ray and myself and
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  S2: Micah Tyler leading worship. We are going to have a
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  S2: discipleship cruise, helping you take your next step with Jesus.
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  S2: And we are fired up about this. Ali, what are
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  S2: the deets here, sister?
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  S4: Yeah. This is June 5th through the 12th of 2027.
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  S4: So one year from now, cruising through the majestic wonders
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  S4: of Alaska. Incredible scenery. And then when you're on the ship,
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  S4: taking part in discipleship training from Karl and Doctor Michael Riedel,
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  S4: worship led by special guest Micah Tyler, who's going to
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  S4: be on board. So if you want to be a
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  S4: part of this and get the details, you got a
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  S4: year to kind of plan and save and but you're
• 16:57
  S4: going to have to decide, I think, pretty quickly. I
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  S4: do expect that this will start.
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  S3: To.
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  S2: Get.
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  S3: My.
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  S4: We're not going to have the whole cruise.
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  S2: No.
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  S4: We're going to have a portion of it. So we're
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  S4: hoping to get, you know, anywhere from 450, up to
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  S4: 900 people into that amphitheater that that's what it can contain.
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  S4: But hey, if we go over, we are happy to
• 17:16
  S4: accommodate and split up the sessions as needed. But do
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  S4: get the details, pray about it, talk to your spouse
• 17:23
  S4: or a friend, or if you want to go solo,
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  S4: you will meet plenty of friends on board. Just text
• 17:27
  S4: cruise to 805 5557898 cruise to 805 557898.
• 17:37
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 17:40
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 17:43
  S2: Mike Tyler right there. And he's going to be leading
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  S2: worship on this discipleship cruise. That's a that's the moniker
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  S2: I'm going to put on this thing. And the, the
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  S2: beauty of it is we get to experience the wonder
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  S2: of God's creation going up the inside passage, departing Seattle, Washington,
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  S2: going up through the inside passage, hitting spots like Juneau
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  S2: and Sitka. And I don't know if we get to
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  S2: Skagway or not, but Glacier Bay and then back down
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  S2: to Victoria and one just one day at sea, a
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  S2: lot of days in port. But we are going to
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  S2: be breaking open the Word of God all along this cruise.
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  S2: Nine sessions where Michael and I are going to be
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  S2: opening up the Word of God. Mike and Tyler's going
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  S2: to be leading us in worship. We're going to have
• 18:24
  S2: opportunities to worship the word into our heart. We're crafting
• 18:29
  S2: how these sessions are even going to work. And we're
• 18:31
  S2: going to we're going to take over that little amphitheater
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  S2: in the bow of the ship, and we're going to
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  S2: go for it, make it into Discipleship Central. How does
• 18:38
  S2: that sound? Ali.
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  S4: Yeah, we're told that those amphitheater, they seat about 900.
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  S4: So that's, you know, if we could get 900 folks
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  S4: from the boom crew on this cruise, that would be awesome. Obviously,
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  S4: we won't cap it there. We'll find a way to
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  S4: accommodate more if more choose to sign up. It is not.
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  S4: We don't have the whole boat, but I have a.
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  S4: I have a strong feeling that the boom crew presence
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  S4: is going to be felt pretty strongly on that cruise,
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  S4: whether they represent 10% or 50%.
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  S2: Yeah, it's going to be great. It's going to be terrific.
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  S2: This is this has the potential to be a transformational time.
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  S2: It could be so significant that being immersed in the
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  S2: word and being away from the hustle and bustle for
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  S2: a few days is going to be the very thing
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  S2: that's going to break you loose from that one thing
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  S2: that's been holding up everything in your spiritual life, you
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  S2: might say, Carl, do you believe we can see that happen? Oh,
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  S2: I absolutely do. So we are going to be immersed
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  S2: in truth and we are going to watch Disciples of Christ. You,
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  S2: the boom crew, take your next step with Jesus. So
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  S2: get the I don't know how this works. If I'm
• 19:46
  S2: not mistaken. You get a deposit in. And then over
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  S2: the next year you can get that thing chunked down
• 19:52
  S2: and be ready to roll. It's going to be an
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  S2: incredible time. Again, we are not, we don't know, balcony
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  S2: versus inside cabin versus suites and all that, but they
• 20:02
  S2: got every bit of information you need. They've been working
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  S2: on it hard. And today is the day the ship
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  S2: is open, so to speak.
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  S4: Alli just text cruise to 805 557898, text cruise to
• 20:16
  S4: 805 557898. As with any trip, there are a lot
• 20:21
  S4: of details that go into it. We've partnered up with
• 20:23
  S4: Inspiration travel. So they've done a phenomenal job. They have
• 20:27
  S4: agents available by phone who can walk you through. So
• 20:29
  S4: you know exactly what it is you're booking. So you
• 20:32
  S4: are going to be well taken care of getting all
• 20:35
  S4: your questions answered. So do get this link. That's the
• 20:38
  S4: great place to start. Text cruise to 800 555, 7898.
• 20:43
  S2: Yeah, going to be sweet. So question for you this morning.
• 20:46
  S2: Boom crew. You had something that you needed to overcome.
• 20:52
  S2: And I don't even want to pigeonhole what that something was,
• 20:55
  S2: but it was holding you back from everything. There was
• 20:59
  S2: something that was holding you back from everything. And God,
• 21:04
  S2: by his grace, set you free. What we want to
• 21:08
  S2: know this morning is how did that happen? Was it
• 21:12
  S2: a course? Was it a class? Was it? I'm convinced
• 21:15
  S2: it was combined with a person. I don't think these
• 21:17
  S2: changes happen without people. What was it that God used
• 21:23
  S2: to set you free from something that was holding you
• 21:27
  S2: back from every thing. Give us a call. Phone lines
• 21:31
  S2: are wide open. Taking calls this morning. 805 5578. 98.
• 21:37
  S2: There was something that was holding you back from everything.
• 21:41
  S2: How did God set you free? That's called discipleship. How
• 21:45
  S2: did it happen? Give us a call right now 805 557898.
• 21:51
  S1: It's Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 21:55
  S2: I think we got some distracted disciples that are grabbing
• 21:58
  S2: links like crazy. I should have known better than to
• 22:02
  S2: do the first rollout of a cruise to Alaska. That's
• 22:05
  S2: a discipleship cruise, and then pop out a discipleship question
• 22:10
  S2: while hundreds of people are trying to get a cabin reserved.
• 22:13
  S2: That ain't working real good.
• 22:14
  S8: Yeah, I mean, the website.
• 22:16
  S4: There's a lot to look at, so.
• 22:19
  S2: It's cool. You can do whatever you want to do.
• 22:22
  S2: Check it out, man. We're we're just pumped up. Discipleship
• 22:25
  S2: is our topic this whole week. And oh, guys, I
• 22:29
  S2: gotta tell you, as a pastor for a lot of years,
• 22:32
  S2: nearing four decades, getting long in the tooth here. Ali.
• 22:36
  S3: Um.
• 22:37
  S8: No way.
• 22:37
  S2: Yeah. You know, I gotta tell you, discipleship that is,
• 22:43
  S2: as we stress around here, the primary metric that every
• 22:46
  S2: Bible college, every seminary grad is called to. Why? Because
• 22:51
  S2: that's the Great commission. And we know that discipleship has
• 22:56
  S2: been lost in the mix. Um, oftentimes we are content
• 23:00
  S2: to gather a crowd making disciples. There's a lot of work.
• 23:03
  S2: Dallas Willard himself wrote the book. The great omission was
• 23:07
  S2: all it was all geared around how we've left out
• 23:10
  S2: this element of discipleship in the church today.
• 23:14
  S8: Pause. What do you it.
• 23:15
  S4: Kind of what do you mean by that? Because someone's.
• 23:18
  S4: What do you. Someone's listening, going. What do you mean?
• 23:20
  S4: We've left discipleship out of the church. Like what? What
• 23:23
  S4: do you mean?
• 23:24
  S2: Well, we've assumed that there's a lot of ways that
• 23:27
  S2: we've done it, but the Great Commission is to go
• 23:31
  S2: and make disciples, teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you.
• 23:35
  S2: And what's generally happened, and we know this from statistics,
• 23:39
  S2: from Pew and from Barna and from other studies that
• 23:42
  S2: have been done. The amount of people that find theirselves
• 23:48
  S2: saved as by fire. Paul speaks those words, but not
• 23:53
  S2: renouncing ungodliness, worldly passions, living self-controlled, upright, and godly lives
• 23:59
  S2: in this present age. That's Titus 211 and 12, that
• 24:03
  S2: there's this massive gap between people that are and I'm
• 24:08
  S2: going with the genuinely born again and those that are
• 24:12
  S2: because they are apprentices of Jesus. That's what disciple means
• 24:16
  S2: following the footsteps of Jesus emulating his life. Applying his truth.
• 24:21
  S2: Getting victory over things in our life that are attached
• 24:24
  S2: to the flesh. The. The gap there is so huge
• 24:29
  S2: in the West, even compared to the persecuted church around
• 24:32
  S2: the globe, that we have to ask the question, why
• 24:35
  S2: is that? And I'm going to riff here for a moment,
• 24:39
  S2: but I believe one of the primary contributors, not all
• 24:42
  S2: of it. One of the primary contributors is that inadvertently
• 24:46
  S2: we've taken the bait of Satan in America, and we
• 24:49
  S2: have measured success or failure on two primary metrics. One
• 24:55
  S2: is how many people are coming and how much money
• 24:58
  S2: is given. And the sad reality with those two metrics,
• 25:03
  S2: is it it on us, this notion that bigger is
• 25:08
  S2: better now bigger is not bad. I want to say
• 25:12
  S2: that right now a lot of people are knocking megachurches. Well,
• 25:16
  S2: here's what I've learned. You can remain lost in a
• 25:19
  S2: group of 5000 or 50 people. You don't have to
• 25:23
  S2: be known in either one of those size groups. I
• 25:27
  S2: don't think the devil is in the big. I think
• 25:30
  S2: the devil is in the absence of intentionality, to go
• 25:34
  S2: and make disciples. And that's hard work. So we've got
• 25:38
  S2: a lot of people who experience salvation, but find the
• 25:42
  S2: promises of God in even the abundant life that Jesus promised,
• 25:47
  S2: rather elusive. And a lot of that is due to
• 25:50
  S2: the fact that we never find a way clear to
• 25:53
  S2: break free from lots of stuff that has been entangling us.
• 25:58
  S4: So we got a question out there for you this morning.
• 26:00
  S4: What was that thing that was holding you back from
• 26:03
  S4: everything else? And how did God set you free? 805 5578, 98.
• 26:09
  S2: Yeah. Steven. First time caller in Ohio. What do you say,
• 26:12
  S2: my man?
• 26:14
  S9: Yes, sir. So I was an extreme heroin addict for
• 26:17
  S9: much of my life. And then, uh, Jesus decided to
• 26:21
  S9: reach down from the heavens and say, I want that man,
• 26:23
  S9: and sent me into the wilderness for a long, long
• 26:27
  S9: time and sent me into adult and teen challenge. And
• 26:30
  S9: I went to Adult and Teen Challenge, and he just
• 26:33
  S9: took my heart of stone and turned it to a
• 26:35
  S9: heart of flesh. But I went through the wilderness, the
• 26:38
  S9: hard troubles of correction and, and, and the greatest thing
• 26:43
  S9: that ever happened to me was what seemed like failure
• 26:46
  S9: was actually a blessing because that failure turned into success.
• 26:50
  S9: You know, it was correction. So and now I'm about
• 26:53
  S9: nine years clean and I serve the kingdom of God
• 26:57
  S9: and just a warrior.
• 26:58
  S2: Way to go. You know what, Stephen? Thank you for
• 27:00
  S2: calling in. Here's an interesting thing, Alex. So I'm going
• 27:03
  S2: to let's keep Stephen in here. We'll do a little
• 27:05
  S2: conference call with our brother Stephen. The interesting thing about
• 27:09
  S2: Adult Teen Challenge almost proves my point here. Adult Teen
• 27:13
  S2: challenge isn't a place that you just go get sober.
• 27:17
  S2: It's a place where you learn the love of God,
• 27:20
  S2: the precepts of God, the teachings of Jesus. You begin
• 27:24
  S2: to get this right, Steven. You get you b you
• 27:26
  S2: get immersed in discipleship. At the end of the day,
• 27:30
  S2: an adult teen challenge, am I wrong?
• 27:32
  S9: Oh, they're building warriors. I mean, like, almost like zealots
• 27:36
  S9: for the kingdom of God. We're just warriors for the kingdom. Yeah.
• 27:40
  S9: And we. And we believe it. We don't just talk
• 27:44
  S9: about the miracles. We don't just talk about healing. We
• 27:47
  S9: believe in that healing authority that Christ says is in us.
• 27:52
  S9: Like we believe.
• 27:53
  S3: That. Yeah.
• 27:54
  S2: No, dude.
• 27:55
  S8: I love that. So for people.
• 27:56
  S4: Who aren't familiar with Teen Challenge, not asking you to
• 27:59
  S4: give a banner ad, but what did you find that
• 28:02
  S4: was different compared to other things that you tried? I'm
• 28:05
  S4: assuming you had tried to get free before from this addiction.
• 28:08
  S4: If it had consumed a lot of your life, what
• 28:10
  S4: was Teen Challenge? What was the difference?
• 28:14
  S9: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Great question. I probably wasn't about 18
• 28:18
  S9: to 19 different, different secular rehabilitations. And the thing that
• 28:23
  S9: I found is they work on two of the three
• 28:26
  S9: things we need the mind, body and the spirit. Well,
• 28:30
  S9: they work on the mind and body, but they don't
• 28:33
  S9: assess the spirit. They can't listen. They can't. Yes. And
• 28:37
  S9: so until you get to the problem, which is the heart,
• 28:41
  S9: you got to dig in to the heart. You know,
• 28:43
  S9: you got to root that up out of you until
• 28:46
  S9: you dig the heart and find the heart. Well, Jesus
• 28:48
  S9: Christ is the only thing that can fix that. So
• 28:52
  S9: we see all these different things. Yeah, you can work out,
• 28:55
  S9: you can eat healthy and stuff, but you're still missing
• 28:57
  S9: the spirit aspect. And the only thing that I ever
• 29:00
  S9: found was, was Christ was Christ was able to take
• 29:04
  S9: that dirtiness out of me. Like I said to the
• 29:06
  S9: one gentleman, he took the heart of stone and turned
• 29:09
  S9: it into a heart of flesh to where I can
• 29:11
  S9: feel again.
• 29:12
  S2: Well, and where Jesus can actually do something with your
• 29:14
  S2: heart and then your habits and then your thinking. I mean, beautiful, Steven.
• 29:20
  S2: Thanks for calling in. Man. First time caller. Ohio. We've
• 29:26
  S2: got to find ourself in a place. We got to
• 29:29
  S2: position ourselves where we can get help. And some of
• 29:34
  S2: you might be saying, yeah, boy, those drugs to Jesus, guys. Oh,
• 29:38
  S2: hold on here a second. We're all in recovery. I
• 29:42
  S2: haven't said that for about three months. There is no
• 29:46
  S2: one listening to me right now who isn't in recovery.
• 29:50
  S2: You are in God's recovery ministry. How do I know this?
• 29:54
  S2: You haven't arrived. If you say you have no sin,
• 29:57
  S2: you're a liar. According to First John. So you're a liar.
• 30:00
  S2: Pants on fire. And by discipleship and following the Savior
• 30:05
  S2: of the world. Humble. Dependent. teachable, eager to take hold
• 30:11
  S2: of his promises. Step by step, choice by choice. We
• 30:16
  S2: begin to change. And Steven's right. Beautiful thing about Real
• 30:21
  S2: Recovery ministries is that they go after the heart and
• 30:25
  S2: its powerhouse man. What do you got, young thunder?
• 30:28
  S5: I'll tell you. Without a job, without a drugs. To
• 30:31
  S5: Jesus story. For myself, I can't tell you of one
• 30:33
  S5: thing in my life that I've found victory in that
• 30:36
  S5: God didn't use other people to help me through to,
• 30:39
  S5: you know.
• 30:40
  S3: Boom, dude.
• 30:40
  S5: He's I don't think I've ever had one of those
• 30:42
  S5: ones where I'm just like, and God, I will do
• 30:45
  S5: this one by myself and it will work perfectly. Has
• 30:48
  S5: he convicted me of things by myself? Has he given
• 30:51
  S5: me some things to do by myself? Absolutely. Has it
• 30:54
  S5: always included me confiding in other people and receiving help
• 30:59
  S5: from the community of Christ? It has. And that's an
• 31:03
  S5: amazing thing that God includes as our recovery process, because
• 31:08
  S5: it's an expectation that we will be so intertwined in
• 31:10
  S5: the community that that's a part of it.
• 31:12
  S3: Yeah.
• 31:13
  S2: Yeah, it really is. And I think it's incumbent on
• 31:16
  S2: leadership in the church to have places more than people
• 31:20
  S2: are being talked at, but people are talking with each other.
• 31:25
  S2: That's the that's the shift that I mean, that isn't
• 31:31
  S2: all of it, because you can talk with people and
• 31:33
  S2: just become knowledge brokers. There has to be a courageous
• 31:36
  S2: leader among that group that puts a Y on the road.
• 31:39
  S2: I guarantee you, if we talk Stephen Moore, he could
• 31:41
  S2: point to guys in Teen Challenge, adult Teen Challenge who
• 31:44
  S2: put a Y on the road in front of him. Guaranteed.
• 31:46
  S3: Oh yeah.
• 31:47
  S2: Guaranteed. This isn't a sit down open Bible. What do
• 31:50
  S2: you think about that? What do you think about that?
• 31:54
  S2: Somebody going, this is what I know about that. These
• 31:56
  S2: are decisions we got to make. Beautiful stuff, man. Banner
• 32:00
  S2: ad for adult teen challenge. That ain't.
• 32:01
  S4: Bad.
• 32:02
  S2: Powerful ministry.
• 32:04
  S1: Take your next step with Jesus today. You're listening to
• 32:08
  S1: cast and Crew.
• 32:10
  S2: Well, one of the great joys of walking this life
• 32:14
  S2: of discipleship is that when we look back, we can
• 32:17
  S2: see things that we learned and the people God used
• 32:23
  S2: in this discipleship process. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
• 32:27
  S4: People who were a little further along the road than
• 32:29
  S4: we were, we were able to just kind of go
• 32:32
  S4: on behind them, following their footsteps, maybe from afar.
• 32:36
  S3: Yeah.
• 32:37
  S2: Yeah. I remember thinking coming even through Bible college, even
• 32:41
  S2: having great mentors, I felt like, oh my goodness. A
• 32:44
  S2: couple of the big things we lost were we didn't
• 32:47
  S2: understand the reality of spiritual war. Then my bride and
• 32:51
  S2: I got introduced to that in South Africa. And just the, oh,
• 32:55
  S2: just the plot and the strategies of evil and the
• 33:00
  S2: demonic forces. And then we didn't hear a lot about
• 33:03
  S2: interpersonal relationships and how to navigate those things. Like we
• 33:07
  S2: try to drill down on like Matthew 18 and other
• 33:10
  S2: passages with us right now is a great friend, a
• 33:13
  S2: great man of God, doctor Bill Thrasher. What were those
• 33:16
  S2: things that you learned early on that's like, boy, I
• 33:21
  S2: needed to be armed with that one in this discipleship path.
• 33:25
  S10: Well, early on it was wandering into the room of
• 33:28
  S10: a fraternity brother. He just spontaneously shared with me a booklet,
• 33:33
  S10: have you made the wonderful discovery of the spirit filled life?
• 33:36
  S10: And I didn't respond in any way, but I hung
• 33:39
  S10: on every word I saw there. There's a resource that
• 33:42
  S10: I don't know anything about. I went to a denomination
• 33:45
  S10: of church. We recited the Apostles Creed. I believe in
• 33:48
  S10: the Holy Ghost, and I had no practical understanding of
• 33:51
  S10: what that meant in my life. But I walked out
• 33:54
  S10: of that room saying, there's something I need to discover.
• 33:57
  S10: I ended up rooming with him for a year, and literally,
• 34:01
  S10: God used his disciplines, his habits, his life, which was
• 34:04
  S10: so genuine. God used that, and I've had to continually
• 34:08
  S10: rediscover that in my life. There's no Christian life apart
• 34:11
  S10: from the Spirit of God. We need him every step
• 34:14
  S10: of the way. Walk by the spirit.
• 34:16
  S4: Doctor Bill Thrasher is with us this morning. He's served
• 34:18
  S4: on the faculty of the Moody Bible Institute since 1980.
• 34:21
  S4: He's a lead professor in the master's program in spiritual
• 34:24
  S4: formation and discipleship. You know, when we say the word discipleship,
• 34:28
  S4: you can think of two different things. You can think
• 34:30
  S4: of a program. Maybe your church has a discipleship program.
• 34:33
  S4: It's a booklet, it's three steps. It's a couple of classes.
• 34:36
  S4: Or you can also think of it as a relationship.
• 34:39
  S4: We need both. But first, let's speak to the program
• 34:43
  S4: that many people have kind of defaulted to that.
• 34:47
  S10: The danger of that possibly. I saw this quote, I
• 34:50
  S10: believe the church, it says is in danger of losing
• 34:53
  S10: the recognized presence of Christ at the center of everything
• 34:57
  S10: we do. We can become highly organized yet spiritually distracted,
• 35:02
  S10: doctrinally informed, yet relationally distant from Jesus himself in many places.
• 35:08
  S10: Efficiency has replaced discernment. Activity has replaced formation, and platforms
• 35:14
  S10: have replaced participation. I fear we may preserve Christian systems
• 35:19
  S10: while slowly losing Christ centeredness.
• 35:21
  S2: Wow.
• 35:22
  S10: What? We don't want to happen. We do see a
• 35:25
  S10: model of discipleship in our Lord's life in his short
• 35:28
  S10: earthly life here. There is one discipler it's Jesus. Jesus
• 35:33
  S10: is the one who says, take his yoke upon you
• 35:35
  S10: and learn from him. So I never will replace Jesus,
• 35:39
  S10: even though I may be a step ahead of somebody
• 35:42
  S10: and I can overflow, and we all should be overflowing
• 35:44
  S10: into other people's lives. And I deeply believe in that.
• 35:47
  S10: But we want to build confidence in the Lord himself.
• 35:51
  S10: You know, you hear tragic situations where a person, the
• 35:54
  S10: key person to disciple me, he's not even walking with
• 35:56
  S10: God now. But you know what? I remember this, dear. He.
• 35:59
  S10: He pastored the largest church in Dallas, Texas, when I
• 36:03
  S10: was there studying. And I remember him saying this. He
• 36:06
  S10: was sharing some secrets of his heart and ministry. He said,
• 36:09
  S10: if every pastor I knew fell into moral sin, it
• 36:12
  S10: would not shake my faith in Christ one iota. He
• 36:16
  S10: did not say it would not break his heart. But
• 36:19
  S10: he says, my faith is in a perfect Christ. And
• 36:22
  S10: I think that's what we want to drill into people.
• 36:25
  S10: Any confidence they have in us somehow would overflow as
• 36:29
  S10: a confidence in Christ. And so really, anything I say
• 36:33
  S10: to others always, no matter how many times I've said it,
• 36:37
  S10: there's a deeper lesson God has in it for me.
• 36:39
  S10: And so if we remember that, I think that's very,
• 36:42
  S10: very important.
• 36:43
  S2: Beautiful doctor Bill Thrasher, our guest right now. I want
• 36:46
  S2: to double back to something that you just touched on.
• 36:48
  S2: But it was a a shocking discovery for me. I
• 36:53
  S2: was raised in a tradition, even Bible college and seminary
• 36:57
  S2: that veered a bit away from the power of the
• 36:59
  S2: Holy Spirit. And we often camped in First Corinthians, which
• 37:03
  S2: I see as mainly corrective rather than illuminating or instructive.
• 37:07
  S2: But then you go to John 14 and John 16
• 37:11
  S2: and Romans eight, and we hit this a lot here,
• 37:13
  S2: because I think there's a lot of people who listen
• 37:16
  S2: that for them, like myself, the Holy Spirit has been
• 37:18
  S2: their loss God. And we want to reclaim that. And
• 37:22
  S2: I love the fact that Jesus says he's our comforter,
• 37:25
  S2: he's our victor. He he's our guide. He will guide
• 37:29
  S2: us into all truth. Why is it so important, doctor Bill,
• 37:33
  S2: to reclaim this lost God who many. The Holy Spirit
• 37:37
  S2: is foreign.
• 37:39
  S10: You know, I think I remember a person saying, if
• 37:41
  S10: the devil cannot prevent a person from being saved, he
• 37:45
  S10: will also try to keep a person from understanding that truth.
• 37:50
  S10: Because see, no matter who a person is, what they
• 37:53
  S10: may know, the gifts that may God given them. They
• 37:56
  S10: are no threat to Satan's kingdom. But God can take
• 38:01
  S10: my feeble words, my weak life or whatever. My frail
• 38:05
  S10: life under the power of the spirit, can lodge truth
• 38:08
  S10: into people and do marvelous things. So I do think that,
• 38:13
  S10: I mean, I tried before I get out of bed,
• 38:15
  S10: there's four things I try to do before I get
• 38:17
  S10: out of bed. One of those is ask God for
• 38:20
  S10: a fresh filling of the spirit. And like I say,
• 38:22
  S10: I have to continually rediscover that in my life. You know,
• 38:26
  S10: the Apostle Paul said, I buffet my body, make it
• 38:29
  S10: my slave, lest after having preached to others, I myself
• 38:31
  S10: would be disqualified. I say, don't trust yourself. You trust
• 38:36
  S10: the Lord and the Lord alone and give him the credit.
• 38:38
  S10: It's an amazing thing is God empowers us. I labored,
• 38:42
  S10: not I, but the grace of God. The grace means
• 38:45
  S10: that God gracious gift of His Spirit to motivate us
• 38:48
  S10: and empower us to do anything he calls us to do.
• 38:50
  S10: You take that dynamic out of the Christian life. It's
• 38:53
  S10: not the Christian life. Yeah. Good deeds done in the
• 38:55
  S10: energy of the flesh will lose their ability to stimulate you.
• 38:58
  S10: But you can do repetitive things in the power of
• 39:00
  S10: the spirit and it can refresh you both can wear
• 39:03
  S10: you out, but one wears you out much sooner unless
• 39:06
  S10: we learn to labor and strive according to Colossians 129,
• 39:09
  S10: labor and strive according to his power that supernaturally works
• 39:12
  S10: in us.
• 39:13
  S4: Doctor Bill Thrasher with us this morning. You know, I've
• 39:15
  S4: often wondered, in most churches, you're going to find a
• 39:18
  S4: couple of different groups of people, and not just these two,
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  S4: but you're going to find lots of people who, if
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  S4: they were honest, they would love to have a seasoned saint,
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  S4: doesn't have to be an older person, but somebody who's
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  S4: been in the Lord for a long time and just
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  S4: help them out, walk with them, teach them some things.
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  S4: And then you have another group of people who have
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  S4: been in Christ walking faithfully for years, and maybe they
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  S4: serve in a ministry. Maybe they usher or sing in
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  S4: a choir, but they're not really being fully utilized. There's
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  S4: so much more that they could give. And you have
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  S4: these two groups there. And yet in most churches, they
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  S4: kind of operate in their own orbits and don't really
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  S4: ever meet. I mean, I'm drawing some generalizations there, but
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  S4: I think where you get where I'm going with this,
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  S4: how can we make discipleship more of the lifeblood of
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  S4: what's happening in our churches?
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  S10: Well, I do think that, you know, the older saint
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  S10: needs to be challenged. And I think we all need
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  S10: to be challenged. You know, you will not significantly grow
• 40:22
  S10: unless you somehow feel a spiritual responsibility for somebody. Yeah.
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  S10: And it may be you're just a little step away.
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  S10: And I, but I know that was I do owe
• 40:32
  S10: so much to that ministry in college. I was a
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  S10: part of the Jesus revolution there, that movement in the 70s,
• 40:38
  S10: you know, that. And that was at Auburn University. But
• 40:40
  S10: when you got saved, you know, you you have a ministry.
• 40:45
  S10: You know, I didn't know very much. But but until
• 40:47
  S10: I really sensed the of responsibility to others. I would
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  S10: say to this day, too, if I didn't wake up,
• 40:52
  S10: I carry some individuals on my heart and I pray
• 40:54
  S10: for them or whatever. When I'm tempted, I pray for them.
• 40:58
  S10: I think one real key of a youth meeting Christ
• 41:02
  S10: and then continuing on in the Christian life, they need
• 41:05
  S10: to have some ministry output, not just sitting and soaking
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  S10: under the absolute best of teaching. But they do need
• 41:13
  S10: to have some ministry output. Sometimes the younger ones need
• 41:17
  S10: to be challenged of how to approach the older ones.
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  S10: Probably it might not be. It might suck them out
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  S10: if they said, would you disciple me? Can I just
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  S10: ask you a few questions?
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S10: That way, you know, if they say, you know that
• 41:30
  S10: many times the older one will know a lot but
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  S10: feel very inadequate, and maybe they were never discipled in
• 41:36
  S10: that sense of formal sense. It's a relational sense, but
• 41:39
  S10: whatever there is, in a sense, for the body to
• 41:42
  S10: function as it ought, we need that stimulation. And I
• 41:45
  S10: tell you, I really appreciate being around younger ones. There's
• 41:48
  S10: the freshness in their life that helps me rediscover things
• 41:51
  S10: that I think I know. I don't know anything to
• 41:53
  S10: the depth that God wants me to know it. I
• 41:55
  S10: was in seminary, Leroy Imes. You would maybe know that name.
• 42:00
  S10: He was a navigator and he was sort of the
• 42:02
  S10: guru of discipleship. He came and he said, there are
• 42:05
  S10: four keys to discipleship. These are the four keys prayer, prayer, prayer,
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  S10: and the word.
• 42:11
  S2: Doctor Bill Thrasher has been our guest. Guys, I gotta
• 42:13
  S2: tell you, one of the one of the things we
• 42:15
  S2: didn't even touch on is the one of the great
• 42:17
  S2: gifts Bill Thrasher has given to the body of Christ
• 42:22
  S2: is the power of victorious praying. The fact that we
• 42:26
  S2: can meet and talk with God, the fact that God
• 42:30
  S2: is here to discuss with us exactly what is going
• 42:34
  S2: on in our life, and we've got a link for
• 42:37
  S2: you right now.
• 42:38
  S4: Just text, pray to 805 557898, pray to 805 5578, 98.