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Big Fish · This Film is Lit

• 0:04
  Speaker A: This film is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple question. Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book.
• 0:15
  Speaker B: And I'm Katie. I have an english degree, so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie.
• 0:22
  Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers because this film is lit. A man tells his story so many times that he becomes the stories. They live on after him, and in that way, he becomes immortal. It's big fish, and this film is lit. Hello and welcome back to this film is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. We're talking about big fish this week. We do not have a guess who or what.
• 1:20
  Speaker B: Oh, I was gonna say oral Austin adaptation.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: I was working on it. I was getting there. Or a lost in adaptation. But we do have every other segment and quite a bit to talk about, so we'll get into it first. You have not read or watched big fish recently. Here is a brief summary and let me sum up, let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. This is a summary of the film sourced from Wikipedia. At William Bloom's wedding party, his father, Edward, recalls the day Will was born, claiming he caught an enormous catfish using his wedding ring as bait. Will, having heard these stories all his life, believes them to be lies and falls out with his father. Three years later, Edward is stricken with cancer, so Will and his pregnant french wife, Josephine, spend time with his father in Will's childhood home in Alabama. Edwards life is told through flashbacks, beginning with his encounter with a witch in his hometown, Ashton. She shows him his death, which doesn't faze him. As he grows into adulthood, he finds his home too confining and sets out into the world with a misunderstood giant, Carl, who is part of a traveling circus. Not yet, I don't think will be. Eventually, Edward and Carl find a fork in the road and travel down separate paths. Edward follows a path through a swamp and discovers the secret town of Spectre. There, he befriends Ashton, poet Norther Winslow, and the mayor's daughter, Jenny. Unwilling to settle down, Edward leaves Spector, but promises Ginny that he will return at Josephine's request. The bedridden Edward tells her how he met his wife, Sandra with will listening outside the door. Returning to his reminiscences, Edward reunites with Carl and they visit the Calloway circus where Edward falls in love with a beautiful woman. Carl and Edward get jobs in the circus, where the ringmaster Amos Calloway reveals to Edward one detail about the woman at the end of every month. Three years later, Edward discovers that Amos is a werewolf, but shows no ill will towards his employer. In gratitude, Amos reveals the womans name is Sandra Templeton, who attends Auburn University. Edward confesses his love to Sandra, but she turns him down. Despite numerous romantic gestures, he learns she is engaged to Don Price, a fellow Ashton citizen from Ed's childhood. Don beats Edward in a fight, prompting Sandra to break off their engagement and marry Edward. I would say Don doesn't beat Edward in a fight. Don just beats up Edward.
• 3:38
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 3:38
  Speaker A: Prompting Sandra to break off their engagement. It was not really a fight, it's just a one way beating. Shortly after, Edward is conscripted into the army and fights in the Korean War, he parachutes into the middle of a north korean military show, steals important documents, and convinces siamese twins Ping and Jing to help him escape in exchange for making them celebrities. Upon returning home, Edward becomes a traveling salesman and crosses paths with Winslow, unwittingly helping him rob a failing bank, inspiring the poet to work on Wall street. In the present, Will investigates the truth behind his father's tales and travels to Spectre. There he meets an older Jenny who explains that Edward rescued the town from bankruptcy and rebuilt it with help from his friend, his friends from the Callaway circus, as well as, uh, money from the Steve Buscemi's character, whatever his name, is. Refuting Will's suspicion that she had an affair with his father, Jenny reveals that while she loved Edward, he remained loyal to Sandra. Will returns home but leans learns Edward has had a stroke and stays with him at the hospital. Edward wakes up but unable to speak, asks Will to narrate how his life ends. Though struggling, Will tells his father of their imagined daring escape from the hospital to the nearby lake. I think it's a river where everyone from Edwards past is there to see him off. It might be a lake, I can't recall. Will takes Edward into the river. It's a river. Will takes Edward. This can't even. Again, Wikipedia's play. It's like maybe the way that Wikipedia is the most inaccurate because again, we talk about it all the time. Wikipedia, pretty reliable generally. But these movie summaries. Holy cow.
• 5:12
  Speaker B: I feel like at this .1 of us should become a Wikipedia and correct so that we can correct these as we go.
• 5:18
  Speaker A: That's wild. Will takes Edward into the river, where he transforms into a giant catfish and swims away. A satisfied Edward dies, knowing Will finally understands his love for storytelling. At the funeral, Will and Josephine are surprised when all the people from Edward's stories come to the service, though each one is a slightly less fantastical version than described. Finally, understanding his father's love for life, Will passes on Edward's stories to his son. I think probably what it is. The end, by the way. I think probably what it is is that, or at least part of it, is that the people who go and actually read this are people who haven't watched the movie and are just getting a summary. So the people who actually, and people who have seen the movie don't go generally go read the Wikipedia summary of it. So the only people seeing it don't know that it's incorrect.
• 6:02
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 6:03
  Speaker A: You know what I mean?
• 6:03
  Speaker B: Right.
• 6:04
  Speaker A: Whereas I think that's probably less true with other things. And there's people actively. And again, it's also very low stakes compared to, like, a lot of the other stuff on Wikipedia about, you know, like, history and whatnot. It's not that big a deal if the plot synopsis of big fish is slightly incorrect, but it is very funny how often it is. It's like every episode, there's at least one thing that is, like, incorrect. That's it, though, for. Let me sum up. I have quite a few questions. Let's get into them in. Was that in the book?
• 6:33
  Speaker B: Gaston, may I have my book, please?
• 6:35
  Speaker A: How can you read this? There's no pictures.
• 6:38
  Speaker B: Well, some people use their imagination.
• 6:40
  Speaker A: All right, so getting into my questions, I have quite a few questions about lines in this, because I thought this movie had some fantastic one liners. Maybe not one liners is not the right term, but moments of dialogue that I thought were really memorable and a lot of fun. I wanted to know how many, if any, of them came from the book. So my first one is one of those lines of dialogue which is right at the very beginning, we get the opening monologue from Will, who is the son of Edward, who is our titular big fish. Spoilers. And I wanted to know if this line. He's kind of reminiscing, and he says, talking about his relationship with his father, which this whole movie is about, and he says, we were like strangers who knew each other very well, which I thought was an interesting line. I will say this. Let me preface all this. This movie, I thought was very good. It did not really affect me very much because I like the relationship, did not strike a chord for the relationship I had with my father in terms of there's maybe some very small elements of it. My dad likes to talk and is a storyteller, but not in the way that this movie is. And our relationship does not. I don't know. It wasn't a whole. So my point being that I didn't want to finish this movie and feel very emotional about anything. So I didn't really connect super deeply emotionally with it beyond what the story was doing, which I think anybody can connect with. But this particular line, I think, can apply to lots of people in very different or ranging types of relationships. And I want to know if it came from the book. We were like strangers who knew each other very well.
• 8:17
  Speaker B: So you mentioned you have a couple questions about specific lines. You're going to be disappointed because I did not have access to a digital copy of this book. I don't think this line was in the book. It does not ring a bell to me from when I was reading. I will also say that the book is a little lighter on Will's angst. It's definitely present. There's the same kind of friction between him and his dad in the book, but in my opinion, it's not nearly as much of a driving force in the book as it is in the movie.
• 8:52
  Speaker A: Yeah, okay. Fair enough. And my next question is also another line. Question. Because during the same opening monologue, he kind of wraps it up as I think it's literally right before the opening title card, and he's describing the story he's kind of about to tell. And he says it doesn't make sense and most of it never happened. But that's what kind of story this is. And I wanted to know if that came from the book because I also liked that line. I just liked the prose, I guess, in a lot of this movie.
• 9:16
  Speaker B: Yeah. I'm also pretty sure that this line is not present in the book. I feel reasonably confident, but if you have a digital copy of this, feel free to fact check me.
• 9:26
  Speaker A: Please let us know. So the catalyst of this story, as I read in the brief summary, is that Edward, the father, is. We find out after an opening little bit here, where the father and son have a falling out. Because at the son's wedding, at Will's wedding, his dad kind of steals the spotlight.
• 9:47
  Speaker B: He kind of makes it about himself.
• 9:49
  Speaker A: Makes it about himself and steals the spotlight. And this is a thing that Will has dealt with his whole life. And he's kind of just fed up with it. And he confronts his dad about it. They have a falling out. And he says, they haven't talked in three years, but they reconnect. And the catalyst for that reconnection is that they find out that Ed has cancer and is dying of cancer, basically, that it is. They're gonna stop chemo. It's to a point where they can't treat it anymore. And I wanted to know if the film or the book had that same catalyst for getting them together and this journey that they go on as they learn about each other.
• 10:21
  Speaker B: So Edward dying of cancer is the main catalyst in the story. There's not any indication in the book that Will had stopped talking to him for any stretch of time. So that element is not present. But the cancer part is from the book.
• 10:35
  Speaker A: Gotcha. Another. Just a quick little line that I wanted to know if it was in front of the book. Cause it made me chuckle. Which is, when he does get back home, Will gets back home and to see his dad and is talking to him. And one of the big things he wants to do is really have a real and honest conversation with his father. Cause he feels like he doesn't really know him, that he's only ever told him all these tall tales and myths about his life. And that he doesn't truly know who his dad actually is. And he wants to know. And so he says during this conversation with his dad, as his dad's laying in bed, he says, I was hoping we could talk about some things while I'm here. And his dad responds by saying, you mean while I'm here? Obviously. Cause he's dying. It made me chuckle. I wanted to know if that line was in the book.
• 11:18
  Speaker B: I'm also pretty sure that this one is not from the book.
• 11:20
  Speaker A: Okay. Lots of. Just little clever turns of phrase. And I think it does a good job of. Especially because it's primarily will and Ed. And I think it does a good job of establishing that. Not only does, obviously Will has a no, Ed has a very notable gift for talking. And he's a wordsmith. He tells stories. That's his whole thing. He loves weaving a tale. And so I think the extension of that is that this movie, in order to get that across, you need to have these people in this movie say, memorable, like, interesting things. And I think this movie does a good job of that. And then you also see that reflected in the things. Like in the opening monologue, it's Ed talking. Those two first questions I asked about who is his son. And you kind of get a feeling very quickly that despite maybe his best efforts, his son has the same sort of gift for speech and wordsmithing that he does. He just doesn't employ it the same way that his father does.
• 12:24
  Speaker B: Isn't he in the movie? Isn't, isn't will a journalist?
• 12:28
  Speaker A: I, it don't.
• 12:29
  Speaker B: He.
• 12:30
  Speaker A: What? Yes. Something along those lines. Because he says he works, and I assume it's supposed to be the equivalent of, like, the Associated Press, but he says, like, the united Press and he's in, like, Paris.
• 12:39
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:40
  Speaker A: And he's like making a phone call and it seems like. Yeah, he's like some sort of journalist for the equivalent, I think, of, like, ap. Like the Associated Press.
• 12:48
  Speaker B: And I find that a really interesting detail, too. And I don't recall that what will does was mention in the book at.
• 12:55
  Speaker A: All, the movie, only briefly. I don't even know if they specifically mention or he just kind of alludes to it.
• 12:59
  Speaker B: Right. But I do think that's interesting because it goes really well with what you're saying about, like, he does have that gift for words and that gift for language, but he utilizes it in a completely opposite way.
• 13:11
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker B: Which is like, truth telling and, like.
• 13:13
  Speaker A: Facts, bare bones facts. Like, this is especially AP. If it is supposed to be a parallel for apartment, that's an even better, like, the perfect choice for it because AP, for people who don't know much about news and stuff like that, the AP, the Associated Press is actually what a lot of news stations like your local news, a lot of the stories they get, will, they will get from the Associated Press. Like is an international news organization. And the AP is very, like, from my understanding, very strict sort of like guidelines. And I guess a, what's the word? Like a code. Not code, but like a, what is it, like when style guide kind of, of how AP writes their articles and does stuff. And it is very, there's like zero editorializing. There is like zero anything. It is just, these are the facts, basically as bare bones as we can get them.
• 14:07
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:08
  Speaker A: But they're very committed to specifically, you know, fact based reporting that is not editorialized or anything in any way, which could not be more polar opposite than telling tall tales. Yes. Than what Ed does. So then we jump back and Ed starts telling a story about his past, and we jump back and kind of see his childhood and whatnot. And then we move forward quite a bit. And at one point, as I mentioned in the thing at his hometown, they have a run in and some issues with a giant who is eating local animals. And Ed decides he's gonna go and talk to him and talk him out of eating things or whatever. And I wanted to know if any of that, if that whole little vignette came from the book, because this movie does end up kind of being like a series of vignettes kind of moving through Ed's life as he reminisces and tells these tall tales about his, his whole life. And I wanted to know if he befriends a giant and if they venture out into the world together.
• 15:12
  Speaker B: So, yes and no. The movie is pretty faithful with this plotline up to a point. A giant does come to Ashton and wrecks hell, eating everything.
• 15:24
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:24
  Speaker B: And Edward does win him over by pretending to be like a human sacrifice. The big difference is that instead of leaving Ashton with him, Edward convinces Carl the giant to become a farmer so that he can maintain his own food source. And then Carl does not appear in the story following this.
• 15:44
  Speaker A: Okay. Cause. Yeah, he recurs throughout the movie.
• 15:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker A: See him a handful of times, obviously, in the circus. They kind of reunite well after his whole little adventure to Spectre. Right after this, he does reunite with Carl the giant. And then they end up in the circus briefly. And then later at the end, during the tall of tale, the where day, he's at the very end, that will is. Or that. Yeah. Will is telling about rushing his father to the ocean or to the river. Carl shows up and moves a car out of the way for them or something like that.
• 16:17
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then we see the real version of him at the end.
• 16:19
  Speaker A: Yes. And then, yes, at the very end, he does show up the real version. And that is a real guy who passed away, I think, a few years after this.
• 16:25
  Speaker B: Fairly young, fairly shortly after that.
• 16:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. Because he had, you know, he had some form of like gigantism or thyroid or something that caused health issues, I.
• 16:34
  Speaker B: Think his wikipedia said. Like congenital. Congenital heart failure.
• 16:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, he said congenital heart failure, but I'm sure that was related to probably his size and other health issues. Related to. Yeah. Cause generally speaking, when people are that tall, that large, there's some sort of like thyroid or some sort of like thing going on that that causes that, generally speaking.
• 16:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. But the movie kind of. To that point, the movie has way more, like through lines and especially like character through lines than the book does. We call the movie a series of vignettes. The book is even more so. Just like these short little scenes.
• 17:13
  Speaker A: Yeah. So then as him and Carl set out, they come to a fork in the road. And Ed decides to head down one direction and comes across. He ventures through some horrifying spider webs and other things through the swamp and ends up in this town called Spectre in the middle of nowhere in the woods. And it's this very strange kind of culty feeling, little town. This is the scene I talked about in the prequel where when he's walking into town, there's a guy playing banjo on the porch. And it's the guy playing. The guy who played one of the people who played banjo in Deer Hunter. Not Deer Hunter. Oh, gosh. The movie with dueling banjos. Christopher Walken in the woods or whatever. I think it's Christopher Walken. Oh, no. Is Jon Voight in the woods? Oh, my goodness. Doesn't matter. You guys know, I mentioned it in the prequel. Just go listen to the prequel. But the song with dueling banjos and it's the guy who played the band that he's doing and he's playing the same song anyways, so it's this very strange, kind of ominous little town.
• 18:14
  Speaker B: Deliverance.
• 18:15
  Speaker A: Deliverance. That's goodness. I can't wanna say Deer Hunter, I think, because I've seen Christopher Walken and whatever, but, yeah. So anyways, he. He's playing in this little town and it's called Spectre. And they all come out to greet him and they're very. It's a very kind of agri. I say agrarian. I don't know if they even farm. But it's, you know, it's a barefoot town that's like their whole thing. Like all the shoes are hung up on a telephone wire. And everybody in the town is. It's very idyllic little kind of main street where everybody is, like perfectly happy and content in this, again, sort of idyllic little country town. And he meets all the people. And one of the people he meets there is this supposedly famous poet that he knows. He's like, oh, my goodness. You're norther Winslow, the poet. And he's like, oh, yeah. And he goes, I've been here for years or whatever. And supposedly this famous poet has been in this inspector for twelve years. And he loved it so much, he just stayed. But during that time, he's been working on a poem. He says he's been working on it for twelve years. And he gives it to Ed to read. And Ed looks at it and the poem is literally the grass so green, the sky's so blue. Spectre is really great. That's all it is. And he's like, you've been working on this for twelve years and I wanted to know if that came from the book because I want to talk about it because I really liked that little exchange between the two of them.
• 19:40
  Speaker B: So Norther Winslow is not in the book at all. I liked the addition of his character, though. I thought he was a lot of fun. Like, all the times that we see him.
• 19:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, we see him like two or three times.
• 19:50
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I have some more thoughts on Spectre. I had them later in my notes. But we can talk about whatever you want to talk about.
• 20:00
  Speaker A: Well, I just want to talk about this. And specifically in reference to the poem, I thought was really interesting and kind of Spectre as a whole, but it's this very idyllic little town that they're kind of, like, trying to convince him to stay. And again, everybody's barefoot. And, like, I liked the idea that this sort of timeless, perfect town is the death of creativity because this poet has been there for a decade and he's been working on this poem. And it's literally just nothing. It's just. It's the most boring nothing ever. The grass so green. The sky's so blue. Spectre is really great. I think that can border on what I think can be a problematic trope, which is that all art must be born of, like, suffering or strife, which I don't think is true. And I think there's maybe a criticism to me that made that the movie is kind of implying that a little bit. But I think more importantly, or I think what I got out of it was less that, like, all art must be born of suffering or strife, but more so that all art is born of tension. And. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it necessarily has to be suffering or strife or whatever, but it does need truly great art. Kind of requires some form of tension, some form of friction, action, something you can't. Art by growth. Yeah, growth, etcetera. And in this town, there is none of that because it is perfectly stuck in time.
• 21:24
  Speaker B: It's perfect. And they don't need to change anything. They don't need to do anything because it's perfect exactly the way it is.
• 21:31
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 21:31
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, I think Spectre's really interesting. Kind of heavily implied as some sort of like, heaven or purgatory.
• 21:41
  Speaker A: Right? Yes.
• 21:42
  Speaker B: Where they talk about when he gets there, they're like, he says, like, I came through the swamp. I almost died. And they're like, yeah, yeah, right. And then they tell him like, oh, you're early. You're here. Early. Yeah. You're here early. We weren't expecting you. But he does manage to get out, which has a very, like, kind of dante, sis. Yes, Dante. Kind of a Dante's inferno type of quality. Or the man who went to get his lover back.
• 22:14
  Speaker A: Oh, not Orpheus. Yeah. No. Is it Orpheus?
• 22:20
  Speaker B: Oh, boy. We're on the struggle bus today.
• 22:23
  Speaker A: The plot of Hadestown. Is that what you're talking about?
• 22:25
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 22:26
  Speaker A: Is it not Orpheus and Eurydice in.
• 22:30
  Speaker B: It's eurydice and is it not Orpheus?
• 22:32
  Speaker A: I think it's. I only know this because I played Hades a lot, but.
• 22:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's. Yeah. Orpheusy.
• 22:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, I know that. Primarily from the video game Hades, he's.
• 22:42
  Speaker B: Got that kind of a. Kind of a vibe to it.
• 22:44
  Speaker A: Right.
• 22:44
  Speaker B: He manages to escape that fate.
• 22:47
  Speaker A: Yeah. He's able to leave even though he doesn't get. They take his shoes from him to trap him there, but he still decides to leave. And there's a great line when he is leaving where there's something about, what do you do without your shoes? And he goes, well, I imagine it'll hurt or something like that. And I liked that line a lot too. Yeah. That giving up this sort of perfect, ideal existence to go struggle some more, but for meaningful things, to continue leading his life and doing things that are important and matter. But yeah. Again, I thought that poem was a nice little way because I initially didn't even take it or read it more as, like, that analog or, you know, sort of, uh, allegory for heaven or death or the afterlife or anything like that. I more so took it as like. But I think it works the other way. It works the same way, but just as, like. Yeah. As becoming comfortable and numb and to. And existing in a place where there is no change, where there is no challenge, there is no, again, friction or anything like that, which I think is necessary for to produce great art, probably. Again, I think it's very important to.
• 23:55
  Speaker B: Or at least to produce growth in yourself.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:00
  Speaker B: Which is often results in an art if you are a person who creates.
• 24:04
  Speaker A: Right, exactly. So then we cut back to the modern day, the real world. Then we cut back to the real world where Ed is telling his story. And I think at this point, this is where Josephine comes in to talk to him briefly for a bit. And he's telling her this story about, like, his. His mother and, like, how, like, his mother and his father and that sort of thing. And he has this great story about how somebody told, oh, he had a dream that's what it.
• 24:38
  Speaker B: Prophetic dream.
• 24:38
  Speaker A: He had a prophetic dream that he has prophetic dreams. And one of them was that his uncle or something was gonna die. And then his uncle did die the next day. And then later that, like, the next day or later, another week later, he had a dream that his dad was going to die. And then he gets high, and he's, like, horrified about it, and he tells his dad, but then his dad is fine. But then they get home from work or school or whatever, and his mother is, like, sobbing in the kitchen or something like that. And they ask her what's wrong? And she says, I had a terrible day. The milkman dropped dead on the porch. And then I love. Which is a great joke, but then I love that Ed then goes on to explain the joke. He's like, because, see, my mom was banging the milkman, and Josephine's like, yeah, no, I got it. And I wanted to know if that came from the book.
• 25:27
  Speaker B: So that joke about the milkman is from the book, but it's not followed up by Edward explaining it.
• 25:34
  Speaker A: I mean, it's great. It's good either way. But him explaining it, I thought, was very funny. So then we cut back and we're doing more storytelling, and we're seeing. This is the point where Ed gets to the circus with Carl, and I wanted to know. We get the scene where he sees Sandra and is struck by her beauty and instantly falls in love with her. And then she disappears because something happens and everybody rushes.
• 26:00
  Speaker B: Time freezes because, oh, and then it speeds up. And then it speeds up again.
• 26:04
  Speaker A: Right? Which I thought that was cool. Is that from the book, the time freezing and speeding up? I thought I liked that. But then, anyway, so she disappears, and he doesn't know who she is or anything. And it's also like the fifties or whatever, forties or something. So he can't, like, look her up necessarily, particularly easily. And so he. But supposedly the circus master knows who this woman is, played by Danny DeVito. And so Ed is like, or will is like, I will, Ed. I keep. I cannot keep straight which one is which. Ed is like, oh, well, I will work for you for free, if you will, like, give me information so I can find her. And he does. And I wanted to know if that whole plot line of him working at the circus to get information. Like one. One little bit of information a month about this woman and him being at the circus for three years came from the book. And then also at the end of that, it's kind of out of nowhere. Surprise. The circus master was a werewolf. And instead of killing him, because he starts attacking Ed at one point, and instead of killing him, Ed's like, no. And then he runs off into the woods. And because Ed was kind to him when he was a. Realized he was a werewolf or whatever, he just tells him who she was. Any of that come from the book?
• 27:20
  Speaker B: No. The entire circus sequence is the movie edition. Yeah. None of them.
• 27:26
  Speaker A: I would not have expected that.
• 27:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. So, sadly, Danny DeVito's circus master character is not in the book. I like the addition of the circus plotline a lot. It's probably my favorite sequence in this movie. And I like Danny DeVito's character, too, although I have slightly mixed feelings about the werewolf thing. I think it's fun, but I kind of wish it had come back in some way.
• 27:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 27:52
  Speaker B: Because it felt a little bit like. Like a one off, random plot device.
• 27:57
  Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, it was kind of out of nowhere and kind of like, oh, okay. I did like, the little detail that his. His buddy, who's, like, his best right hand man, there's, like, a clown in the circus who's the guy who actually, he plays the oompa Loompas in Tim Burton's Charlie and the Chocolate factory. But that actor, he apparently knows about this. And when the wolf comes out and starts attacking Ed, he, like, in his giant clown costume, he, like, opens a door on the front, and there's a revolver in there with a single silver bullet that he keeps for this very occasion. We, like, cut to a close up of him, like, aiming at the wolf, like a single. Very funny. But I was super confused at that point. Cause I did not realize what was happening, that he was a werewolf until then. He ran off, and we found him in the woods. I'm like, okay, I get what's going on here, but initially, I was like, why does he have a gun? What is this doll? What is going on? I was so confused. But, yeah, it's a fun scene also, apparently, because didn't Danny DeVito play the circus master? I have not seen it. But in the ringleader or whatever, in the Tim Burton's dumbo movie, does he. I'm pretty sure Danny DeVito plays, like, the main character in that movie. He plays. I'm pretty sure he plays the circus master.
• 29:15
  Speaker B: I mean, it's a great casting idea. Yeah, it's top notch casting.
• 29:20
  Speaker A: Thought. Yeah, you went back to that. Well, I believe I could be wrong, but I feel like I remember in a trailer seeing Danny Devito playing that's so nice.
• 29:28
  Speaker B: We did it twice.
• 29:30
  Speaker A: Yeah. So now that he knows who Sandra is, Sandra Templeton or something like that, he rushes off to find her. Cause she's enrolled at Auburn University, goes to Auburn. And he starts trying to woo her. She's engaged, but he keeps escalating acts of love and trying to woo her over. And one of them. Really great shot you had posted it for a social media post at one point. It's a beautiful shot. And I guess the idea is he planted all these. Whatever. Magically, he got this whole field of flowers outside of her sorority house or whatever. But one morning, she wakes up and looks out the window and Ed is standing in this gigantic field of daffodils, which he knew was her favorite flower from the circus master. And I wanted to know if that moment came from the book because it's a beautiful shot.
• 30:21
  Speaker B: It is not from the book, but I agree. It is a beautiful shot.
• 30:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. We move forward quite a bit. He has now married. He did end up wooing. We talked about it in the summary. But her current fiance comes out and he gets all mad and beats up ed. And then his anger and violent nature makes her break up with them.
• 30:44
  Speaker B: It gives her the ick.
• 30:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, gives her. Exactly. And she breaks up with them. And then. So now Ed and Sandra are together and he becomes a traveling salesman. I think at this point, maybe. I can't remember.
• 30:58
  Speaker B: No, he goes off to war first, but then he comes back and becomes a traveling salesman.
• 31:02
  Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So I skipped some of that. I didn't have questions about that. We'll get into some of that later. But, yeah, he becomes a traveling salesman, goes to war, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff. And then at one point, he's back and he's at a bank. I think this is related to the spectre thing. No, not yet.
• 31:15
  Speaker B: Not yet.
• 31:15
  Speaker A: No, he's at the bank. And while he's standing in line. What is that guy's name?
• 31:21
  Speaker B: Norther Winslow.
• 31:22
  Speaker A: Norther Winslow. A Steve Buscemi's character, the poet from Spectre, shows up and is robbing the bank.
• 31:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:29
  Speaker A: They have a brief conversation and then all of a sudden, Norther pulls out a pistol and is like, I'm robbing the place.
• 31:35
  Speaker B: No, it's a great exchange because they kind of chit chat. Norther's like, oh, you inspired me to leave Spectre. And when Ed's like, oh, that's great. What are you doing now? And he's like, I'm robbing this bank.
• 31:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. And then he kind of loops ed into it unwillingly. And Ed kind of helps him rob this bank. But during the process of robbing, it finds out that the bank is out of money because of oil, specifically speculation.
• 32:04
  Speaker B: Because of, like, the corrupt oil speculation market or something.
• 32:08
  Speaker A: So the bank is literally bankrupt. And I wanted to know if that whole plot line with northern or. And it's not northern, obviously. You said he's not in the. In the book, but this could have just given it to a different character. Does Ed accidentally inspire somebody to rob a bank or. Sorry. Cause then that's the other thing. At the end of it, they don't have any money in the vault. And he's telling. He's explaining this why there was no money in the bank to Norther, and about how the Wall street oil speculators, blah, blah, blah, took all the money. And. And this inspires northern to go work on Wall street, which is hilarious. And I wanted to know if any of this came from the book.
• 32:46
  Speaker B: Unfortunately, none of this is from the book, not a single bit. I really love the scene where Edward starts just explaining the corrupt, loyal money system, and they go through this whole thing, and then Norther's just like, I have to go to Wall Street. I gotta go to Wall street. That's where the money is.
• 33:06
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's fantastic. So then back in the real world, in modern times, Ed is again dealing with this cancer. And there's this great scene where he is in a tub. Not really any explanation. We just cut back and he's underwater in this tub, which there's kind of.
• 33:21
  Speaker B: A running, like a recurring bit where he's always thirsty.
• 33:26
  Speaker A: Yes. And he wants water all the time. And this is all tying in, ultimately, thematically, with him being the fish and him being free in the water and telling these fish, you know, big fish tails. That's the whole thing. Um, anyways, I wanted to know if that scene. Because, anyways, he's laying in this tub, and then Sandra comes in and sees him, and they have. And she actually gets into the tub, like, fully dressed with him. And they have this very sweet moment together. And I want to know if that scene was in the book, but specifically the line. And I don't even remember what led into it. But he says. Ed says something to her because she's, like, upset and kind of crying. And he says something to her, I think, to, like, comfort her. And she says, oh, I don't know. I don't think I'll ever dry out. And he probably said something like, oh, your dress is I don't know, whatever. Something she says, I don't think I'll ever dry out because she's devastated that she's losing the love of her life and that sort of thing. And it's really sad and really sweet. And I wanted to know if it was in the book.
• 34:23
  Speaker B: It is not from the book. But I also loved this scene. I had it and better in the movie, I think it's really bittersweet, really beautiful.
• 34:31
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:33
  Speaker B: Hits me different now that I have you.
• 34:35
  Speaker A: Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yes. It's not a scene that really would have done a whole lot for me ten years ago, I don't think. But yeah. Yeah, it definitely. And I'm sure that's a scene that, you know, if we watch this movie in 30 years, we'll hit even harder.
• 34:47
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Speaker A: But, yeah, it is. Yeah. It's a heartbreaking scene. Now we get to the part where Ed goes back to Spectre in the story world, I guess we'll call it, where he goes back to. He makes his way back to Spector, and Spector is run down and being sold off to the highest bidder.
• 35:05
  Speaker B: The outside world came to.
• 35:06
  Speaker A: The outside world came in, came to call and ruined it. And it's all dilapidated and broken down, and it's being sold off to the highest bidder. And Ed buys the town, and he's working to help with the help of norther, who is now a Wall street mogul.
• 35:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, he's at the wolf of Wall.
• 35:24
  Speaker A: Street now and some of his friends from the circus and stuff like that. He rebuilds the town and keeps it exactly how it was and basically just lets the people, gives it back to the people so that this one gets sold off and exploited and that sort of thing. But the last building that he hasn't been able, that has not been repaired and that he has not been able to purchase is Jenny's building, which he doesn't realize at this point, but he goes to visit and then realizes over the course of his conversation with her that this is Jenny, the little girl he met.
• 35:51
  Speaker B: The little girl who had a crush on him.
• 35:53
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 35:53
  Speaker B: Who had the daughter of the mayor.
• 35:54
  Speaker A: I think, or something like that. And he told her he'd be back, but now he came back and it's way too late because that's what the lead into this is. The lead into this is that will shows up here and talks to Jenny and she relays this story to him because he's kind of interested. He finds the deed or whatever.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: So he goes to find out how much of his father's stories about Spector are true.
• 36:18
  Speaker A: True. Right.
• 36:19
  Speaker B: And also to find out if he was having an affair with someone.
• 36:22
  Speaker A: Yes. Cause he assumes his dad was having an affair, and so she's telling him the story. And during this story, we get this exchange where Ed is talking to Ginny, and she's like, well, why are you doing this? Why are you buying up Spectre? Why are you, like, helping? Like, why are you doing this? And ed responds by saying. And at this point in the conversation, he does not know who she is. Still, he says, helping people makes me happy. And she immediately responds by saying, I'm not convinced you should be happy. I was like, oh, my goodness. That is a devastating comeback. Cause we know who this is. And I thought it was very funny, and I want to know if it was in the book.
• 37:02
  Speaker B: That specific exchange is not from the book. No.
• 37:05
  Speaker A: Okay. But then. So he ultimately ends up helping. She doesn't want to sell him her house, but he ends up helping her, like, rebuild it, and blah, blah, blah. And ultimately, she does agree to sell it to him, but he still lets her keep it. Whatever. But then back in the real world, Will is talking to Jenny, and he kind of asks about. Specifically about the affair. And she says to him, no, you know, your father didn't have. We never. He didn't have an affair with me, blah, blah, blah. And the line she says to him, which I thought was great, is, to your father, there's only two women, your mother and everyone else. And I want to know if that came from the book.
• 37:41
  Speaker B: It is definitely not from the book. I was able to check these ones for sure because I knew exactly where this story was in the book. So. Not from the book. Also in the book, Ed and Jenny very much do, in fact, have an affair.
• 37:53
  Speaker A: Oh, no.
• 37:55
  Speaker B: So, obviously, I think this is better. The movie.
• 37:58
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Especially with the other changes, maybe that the movie makes and stuff. And. Yeah, I think if he had had an affair, I don't think that works thematically with what the rest of the movie is doing.
• 38:10
  Speaker B: No.
• 38:10
  Speaker A: At all. Yeah. A couple more questions here. As he gets back from Spectre, from visiting Spectre, and is now realizing that there's maybe more truth to some of his father's stories than he suspected he wants. He finds out that his dad had a stroke. Ed had a stroke while he was gone and is in the hospital, and he goes to stay with him and see him, and he sends his mom home and says, I'll stay with him overnight. And in the middle of the night or in the next morning or whatever. His dad actually does wake up, but he can barely talk. He's struggling to talk because of the stroke and that sort of thing. He's very clearly kind of at the end of his. Of his time here, and he asks ed. Sorry. He asked will to tell him the story of what happens. And he's, like, when he's, like. Or what happens when he goes, like, now, starting now. And so basically, he wants will to tell him the story of how he dies, because he mentioned earlier that he saw in the witch's eye.
• 39:06
  Speaker B: He sees in the witch's eye how.
• 39:08
  Speaker A: He'S gonna die, how he's gonna die. But he never told will what it was or whatever, and so now he's having will do it, and so will has to kind of make up this story, and he weaves this tale about, um, is his father's, you know, turning. Taking him down to the river, rushing out of the hospital, taking him down to the river, seeing everybody that he's ever known, blah, blah, blah, and then him turning into a fish. And I wanted to know if does. Does Will tell Ed the story of how his story ends.
• 39:36
  Speaker B: The very last story in the book is about Will, like, breaking Edward out of the hospital, taking him to the lake. He turns into a fish. Spoilers for your next question.
• 39:49
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 39:49
  Speaker B: There you go. But it's not set up. Like, he's literally telling him a story.
• 39:54
  Speaker A: So do we know who is telling the story in that moment?
• 39:57
  Speaker B: I mean, Will is the narrator of the book, so presumably he is telling that story, but it's not framed the way that the movie frames it, where they're sitting in the hospital, and he begins telling him. He's like, tell me the story of what happens.
• 40:15
  Speaker A: Okay, I have more about. I have another note about that scene in our odds and ends that I'll talk about, but, yeah, I thought it was great.
• 40:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's a great ending.
• 40:23
  Speaker A: And so he does turn into a big fish.
• 40:25
  Speaker B: He does turn into the titular big fish. Yes.
• 40:29
  Speaker A: Fantastic. And then my final question was, after this all goes down and we get the whole story, the fairytale story ending of him turning into a fish, we then go to the actual funeral for Ed. And at this funeral, we see a lot of the characters from his stories, but they're. They're just like normal people. Like, they're, you know, the. The human version, the. The less the non tall tale version of the people that he knew, you know? So we see the siamese twins, but they're not siamese twins. They're just twins or sisters or whatever, seemingly. And we see the giant, but he's not.
• 41:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, 15ft tall. He's a big dude, but he's not.
• 41:08
  Speaker A: He's seven.
• 41:09
  Speaker B: Seven foot six of a house.
• 41:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's seven foot six instead of 15ft tall or whatever. And that sort of thing. And so you see the people that inspired the story and I wanted to know if that element of actually meeting and seeing the people from the tall tales was in the book.
• 41:24
  Speaker B: No, this does not happen in the book. The book ends with Edward turning into the big fish and that's where it stops. I really like this decision by the movie, though. I liked giving a little kind of coda at the end to these stories also. I like that because the movie made the decision of bringing the stories into the real world ahead of this with having will actually go to Spector and talk to Jenny, which does not happen in the book. I think it makes a lot of sense to kind of bring that back and close everything out at the end of the film.
• 42:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, I liked it a lot. All right. I do not have a lost in adaptation this week. Pretty much followed everything. And we'll talk about some more thematic stuff kind of throughout. But we do have everything that Katie thought was better in the book.
• 42:17
  Speaker B: You like to read? Oh, yes, I love to read. What do you like to read? Everything. I have a few things here. So in the movie, we get a brief little scene where Edward is being born and he, like, shoots across the hospital. Shoots across the hospital and, like, flies down a hallway. In the book, he is born during. At the very end of the worst drought that Ashland has ever seen. And as he's being born, it starts storming and storming and storming. And I liked that. I thought it felt a little more classically tall tale.
• 43:02
  Speaker A: Well, it also thematically follows through with the idea and I think that might be alluded to in the movie. I think it is storming, raining a lot when he's born.
• 43:12
  Speaker B: Is it?
• 43:12
  Speaker A: I think, like, outside. I mean, they're in a hospital.
• 43:15
  Speaker B: I didn't catch that.
• 43:16
  Speaker A: If I could be wrong. If it's not, I think it should have been. Because I will say this. I think thematically that makes a lot of sense, especially with the whole thing.
• 43:23
  Speaker B: With, like, his water thing.
• 43:24
  Speaker A: With his water thing and the idea that, you know, he's at the end of his life, he's always thirsty. And, like, we kind of find out that he is part of what this whole thing ends up being is that his father tells these tales because he thinks they're interesting and it's his way he communicates and this is the way he sort of.
• 43:44
  Speaker B: It's the way he makes himself meaningful, I think.
• 43:48
  Speaker A: Exactly. And I like the idea because at the end of him becoming the big fish and the recurring thing where he's thirsty, the idea that his son being born, you may not realize it at the time when you see that scene happening, that the rain is relevant or the storm is relevant, but his son being ushered in with this torrential downpour and this immense amount of water, I think you could look back at the end and go, oh, that is a him. Adding that to the story is his sort of subtle, roundabout way of explaining how much he loved his son and how much his son meant to him and how his son, because he is so obsessed with water later in the story, and he's always thirsty and all these sort of things. The moment his son being born, being the moment this drought was broken, his son being the bringer of water in that regard, feels like a very symbolic way of explaining how much. How much he cares about his son and, you know, his son represents. It was this thing that. That brought the water into his life. Like, literally, you know, metaphorically, I guess. But I think that ties through with what the movie does the rest of the time. You know what I mean? Do you get what I'm saying?
• 45:03
  Speaker B: Yeah. I just want to be clear that I'm talking about Edward. The father was born during a storm.
• 45:10
  Speaker A: Damn it. Never mind. I forgot about that. Yeah, that's not as good. Nevermind. Still works, I guess, but, yeah, my version's better. Sorry, I thought it was. I forgot he wasn't telling it. I forgot that that story wasn't about Will being born, it was about Ed being born. Never mind. Yeah, I think my version's better.
• 45:33
  Speaker B: Another little kind of thing that I liked in the book, there is a story about his dad catching this uncatchable catfish. It's not the same as it is in the movie. It doesn't take place as Will is being born, and he does not catch the catfish with his wedding ring. But there is a story where he catches an uncatchable catfish. And in this story in the book, the catfish actually pulls him out of the boat and into the lake. And as he's, like, swimming under the lake, being pulled along by this catfish, there's a part of the town that was flooded years before, and he goes through this flooded town and they're ghost people. In the flooded town. I just thought it was kind of fun.
• 46:18
  Speaker A: Sounds fun.
• 46:20
  Speaker B: It gave me. It made me think of in James and the giant peach, where they go to get the skeletons. Yeah, the skeletons and the pirate ships or whatever.
• 46:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:30
  Speaker B: I thought it could have been a fun motif for a movie. One other thing that I meant to add here, but that I forgot real quick, before we get to. The more meaty thing that I want to discuss is that there is a little joke at one point in this book about a town having a whore house, but then it says that it wasn't a whorehouse, like you're thinking. It was just a house that a whore lived in.
• 46:55
  Speaker A: That's a good joke. Yeah, that's good.
• 46:59
  Speaker B: Okay. And the main thing that I want to discuss is the siamese twins.
• 47:06
  Speaker A: Woof.
• 47:07
  Speaker B: So there is Edward meeting siamese twins while in Asia is briefly mentioned in the book. There's not a whole story about it, but it's mentioned as a thing, like a tale that he tells. Yeah, I believe it was actually Japan in the book and not Korea.
• 47:27
  Speaker A: Cause, yeah, he's in the korean war, and he gets conscripted in the korean war.
• 47:31
  Speaker B: And I'm not super sure that expanding on that was the way to go.
• 47:37
  Speaker A: Or done it very differently.
• 47:39
  Speaker B: I guess maybe should gone a different direction on that one.
• 47:43
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 47:44
  Speaker B: And I think that there was an attempt at being like, oh, we're actually mocking racist tropes. And the thing that makes me think this is that he's got, like, a little translation dictionary that says asian to English. And I feel like that's so out there that it's like, it's gotta be a joke.
• 48:11
  Speaker A: Right. I think you're not wrong that maybe that might have been part of the intention, but in my opinion, it does not go far enough. Or maybe not far enough. I don't think it's obvious enough. The obvious enough that that's the intention, because. Yeah, I agree.
• 48:25
  Speaker B: I'm not saying it was successful. I'm just saying that I think there was, like, something of an attempt there. I do not think it was successful, and I do not think the movie should have gone.
• 48:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's possible that that's the case. I didn't really get that from it. I. Well, one, I missed that little. That little detail of the asian to English dictionary, which. Yeah. Is obviously comically like.
• 48:47
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 48:48
  Speaker A: Ignorant, but to the point where it feels like it. Obviously it has to be like. That has to be satire, kind of.
• 48:54
  Speaker B: Right. That has to be satire.
• 48:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, but, yeah, other elements of it just don't really feel like they either went far enough or went, like. I don't know. Because, like, yeah, he gets. One of the big moments that stuck out to me is the whole thing's kind of like, whatever. Like, he air drops into Korea and all this stuff, but he ends up in this tent, and he's, like, stealing information, and he, like, barges into this tent where there's these two korean guards. And again, I think this probably the fact that I called out that the martial arts they were doing is, like, wildly incorrect. Maybe is partial that, but it just doesn't feel like enough. I feel like racist people would just think it was funny. Like, they wouldn't realize that it was. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But to me. Cause, like, he gets into this tent, and these two military guards start, like, doing martial arts, but I think they're specifically. Which is already, like, whoa. But I think they're also specifically doing. Which, again, I guess, maybe lends more Koreans to what you're saying, like, of Wing Chun. I think I could be wrong about that. They're doing a form of martial arts that I've seen in chinese, like, martial arts, like kung fu or whatever. It does not look, because they're doing the thing where they're swinging their arms, and I swear it might not be Wing Chun, it might be kung fu, it might be something else. But it is, like, a chinese martial art that you see in, like, crouching tiger, hidden dragon, I think, is the one that most jumps to my head of, like, I remember seeing this very specific, like, martial art forms that they're doing in that movie, and I was like, boy, that's not even the appropriate martial art. And again, maybe that's the point, but it just comes across as you're supposed to. It doesn't feel quite obvious enough that it's satire.
• 50:33
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 50:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. It just felt, like, rough to me. I was just like, oh, yeah.
• 50:38
  Speaker B: I think the whole thing is pretty rough. You know, even if there was some attempt at, like, satire. Satire? Like, satirizing racist tropes?
• 50:47
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 50:47
  Speaker B: It's not enough.
• 50:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 50:49
  Speaker B: And, like, are you Tim Burton? Really the person, I don't know, satirizing this racist asian tropes, and I just.
• 50:56
  Speaker A: Don'T feel like the rest of the movie does enough similar thing. I don't know. Like, it. The movie is not really. There are the movies satirical of different things, obviously, like the oil and the whole. Yeah, like, there are elements of that. But I don't know. This one just stuck out to me as just like, this seems like a bad idea and doesn't, even if that is giving the largest benefit of the doubt possible that it was going for mocking racist tropes and stuff like that. And kind of the way that cinema has orientalizes entire region of the world and just says it's all Asia and kind of just combines all of that into whatever. I think you're right that that maybe is what the movie is doing. I would say even go beyond probably, maybe to say that's probably what the movie's doing. I just don't know if it's.
• 51:42
  Speaker B: I don't think it's doing it well.
• 51:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, like I said, I think a racist person would watch that movie and just laugh and think it's hilarious and not go, oh, I'm being made fun of.
• 51:54
  Speaker B: Right.
• 51:55
  Speaker A: At least I don't think.
• 51:56
  Speaker B: No, I don't think. Well, and the whole siamese twins thing, it's so fetishy and.
• 52:02
  Speaker A: Yeah, it lives in this middle ground between obvious satire and just racist. That is like, uncomfortable. Yeah.
• 52:13
  Speaker B: That was all the stuff I had for better in the book.
• 52:15
  Speaker A: There you go. Let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies.
• 52:30
  Speaker B: We talked about quite a few things that I liked about the movie already, but a couple more things. I really like the opening montage, kind of where we see him. We can see will getting increasingly frustrated with his father and his father telling the same stories over and over and always wanting to be the center of attention. And I thought that it put a really fine point onto what their issues are and made it very understandable for the rest of the story. And I did think that was something that, for me, fell a little flat in the book. Like the narrator was telling us that he was kind of irritated with his dad about these things. But I didn't really feel it in the book the way that it did in the movie.
• 53:17
  Speaker A: I think another thing the movie does really well there is that, as I mentioned earlier, that this isn't really a dynamic, not remotely to the extent the movie does that I have with my dad or we have a very good relationship. And I feel very like I know who my dad is for the most part. He is also a storyteller, though, and I think that's what the movie does effectively, is that I think almost anybody in this opening can glean on to some little element of this that they can see in their own lives and that annoys them in their own lives because the little detail that does stick out, that stuck out to me and made me chuckle and give a knowing laugh, too, was where he's repeating the lines of the. Like, where he's not repeating where will is saying the punchlines to the stories, like with his dad or whatever. Like that little element of. You've heard this story 8000 times. And I think everybody, you know, can. Whatever little element of it it is, I think everybody can. There's something that most people can kind of identify with in there because it is so effectively communicated through these very short little scenes. I just think it's really well done.
• 54:30
  Speaker B: The story about the witch with the glass eye, there is a version of that in the book, but it happens when Will is in college and, like, stealing the glass eye or. No, he doesn't steal it. They've already stolen it. He has to watch the glass eye, but he's trying to steal it back for the witch. It's complicated, but it occurs while he's in college. So he's older. He's an older teenager going into young adulthood.
• 55:01
  Speaker A: Right.
• 55:02
  Speaker B: And I liked that the movie moved this to when he was a kid.
• 55:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 55:08
  Speaker B: Because I think that it feels very like kid adventure coded.
• 55:12
  Speaker A: Oh, absolutely.
• 55:12
  Speaker B: Like, it's very goonies.
• 55:13
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 55:14
  Speaker B: You know.
• 55:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Or even like, stand by me in a different way, obviously, but, yeah. Or like a goosebumps story or. Yeah, no, it absolutely feels like. Yeah, yeah.
• 55:23
  Speaker B: Very, very kid adventure coded. I also like that the movie shows us what the other boys see.
• 55:29
  Speaker A: Oh, they're dead.
• 55:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. I thought that was fun.
• 55:32
  Speaker A: By the way, if you listen to the prequel episode we mentioned that Miley Cyrus appears in this movie. That's the scene she appears in. She is one of the little kids.
• 55:40
  Speaker B: And she has one line.
• 55:41
  Speaker A: She has one line. You also see her again right after that, the scene in the church. The camera pans past her. She doesn't say anything, but I think those are the two times you see her. But, yeah, she has a line in.
• 55:51
  Speaker B: This and she turns. I would not have recognized her if you hadn't pointed her out while we were watching the movie because she's so young.
• 55:58
  Speaker A: I didn't know where she was so different, but I was like, I knew she was a little kid and so I was like, it's gotta be one of these scenes as a little kid. And I was like, oh, there's a little girl here. And then when they finally showed her up again. Showed her close up of her again. I was like, that's. Yep, that's Miley Cyrus as, like, an eight year old or seven year old or something like that. Destiny Cyrus at the time, I believe. Yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker B: Good call on the name change, in my opinion.
• 56:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, Miley's much better.
• 56:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. Suits her. Yeah, a lot better. Anyway, so I said that I had some thoughts on Spectre. Spectre is in the book. We see it when it's a town that he buys. He buys all of Spectre up. We talked about that a little bit. But what the movie does is combine Spectre with a different story in the book. So there's this story in the book where in order to leave Ashland or Ashley. Ten.
• 56:52
  Speaker A: Ashton, I think.
• 56:53
  Speaker B: Ashton. It's Ashton in the movie and Ashland in the book. So I think I have used them, like, interchangeably all across my notes. Close enough. But in order to leave, you have to go through this kind of, like, no man's land version of the town, which really is described as, like, a purgatory. Like, yeah, you go in and. But it's not like Spectre because you go in and everything is, like, gray and grab and, like, it's where dreams go to die.
• 57:25
  Speaker A: Right.
• 57:26
  Speaker B: So it's.
• 57:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, they definitely, like, combined.
• 57:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, they. So they come. They wove them together. I really like what the movie did with it. I thought the books version of this, like, no man's land, like, purgatory was really interesting too.
• 57:40
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 57:41
  Speaker B: Because, you know, we're kind of good at getting into the idea of, like, if you can't manage to leave this place where you started and all these dreams that you had just kind of wither and die. And specifically, there's a line in the book where Ed, he's in this place and he's trying to figure out how to get out. And he's like, it's really damp here all the time. And one of the people who's stuck there is like, well, you'll get used to it. That's what this place is about, getting used to things.
• 58:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 58:17
  Speaker B: So kind of that kind of vibe. But I thought the movie made a good call to just combine those things. I thought that made a lot of sense also, Inspector, I thought the rocking chairs at the table was a fun little touch. Like, when they're eating, they're, like, sitting in rocking chairs at the dinner table. I also really like the visual of the shoes hanging up on the line. And then I also like when he leaves Spectre and he's getting attacked in the swamp, and he's like, wait a minute. This isn't how I die.
• 58:50
  Speaker A: Right?
• 58:51
  Speaker B: And the concept of him knowing when he's going to die from the glass eye is from the book. But I liked this scene and that line specifically where he's just like, wait a minute. And then all the danger stuff, he's like, uh, this isn't how I go.
• 59:07
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 59:08
  Speaker B: I mentioned that the circus plotline was my favorite part of this movie, and I think that the time stops sequence might be my favorite single scene in the movie overall. It's up there just where he sees her across, and then everything freezes. And I like when he's walking through and stepping through the whole hoops and the popcorn falling as he touches it. Great, great stuff.
• 59:33
  Speaker A: Like something out of a music video.
• 59:34
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 59:35
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 59:36
  Speaker B: I do want to mention that I could totally get being bothered by Edward kind of hounding Sandra with, like, big romantic gestures. For me, within the larger than life context of the film, it totally works.
• 59:54
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 59:55
  Speaker B: Like, I could get being like, oh, that's not for me. But I think within the context of the film, it works. Especially because in the book, they just go on, like, a regular date, and then they have a brief altercation with Don, and it's all, like, very normal. And I appreciate that the movie went for grand and over the top and leaned more into the tall tale.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker A: It works in an aspect because, yeah, we know this didn't actually happen. So the fact that it's this kind of that classic trope that is kind of gross and problematic from where the guy just wears down a woman by, like, you know, repeatedly propositioning her in grander and grander ways, trying to, like, yes, win her over is weird and is rooted in some problematic stuff. But in this instance in the movie, I think it works fine and it's not. Yeah, it didn't give me the ick or whatever.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker B: Also in the book, Edward beats up don't. Instead of the other way around, and that just doesn't work for me. No, I think we need our hero to get beat up in this moment.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker A: It's much better. The movie switches it where he gets.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker B: His ass kicked and then a couple random things that I really didn't like in the book that the movie leaves out. There's this whole story in the book where Edward does this brief stint working in the lingerie department of a department store, and there's like, yeah, you're already making a face. That's the same face I was making as I read it. And then there's this one, like, really old woman who always wants to buy girdles because she's very vain, but she's also very fat. And the whole story was, like, very wildly fat phobic. And then she doesn't want him to wait on her because she doesn't think he should be working in the lingerie department. But he's determined to wait on her because he sees it as, like, a personal goal. So these new girdles come in, and he hides them so that nobody else could get them for her and throws all of his coworkers under the bus, and she's yelling at all of his coworkers. And then he's like, haha, I have the girdles. So he goes and gets it for her, and it's great, and she loves it. And she's like, I like you now. And I was like, it's not like he made the girdle. I don't understand.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker A: It's weird.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker B: He didn't make it.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker B: He just hid it and then let all of his coworkers take heat from you.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker B: I don't like this story.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker A: No.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker B: Anyway, I was glad that the movie left that out.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker B: And then another random line that the movie made the wise decision to leave out. When we're talking about how Edward kind of wasn't around during Will's childhood, there's a line. It was different with women. They were made to raise a family.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker A: Nice.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker B: And I say thumbs down. Emoji to that.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker A: Boo, boo, hiss. You suck. All right, let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought the movie nailed.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker B: As I expected, practically perfect in every way. We've also talked about a couple things that were in the movie or in the book throughout our other segments. Here are a few more things. There's a brief moment where he goes into the witch's house to get her glass eye, and then he comes back out and they're like, do you have the eye? And he's like, yeah, I have it. And steps aside and the witch is right behind him. That is from the book. That moment does happen. Their ancient family doctor, who has been old for will his entire life and is somehow still practicing medicine. Also from the book, the story about him being confined to bed for a year because he was growing too fast and his bones couldn't keep up.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker A: Also from the book, does he have a crazy contraption?
• 1:04:00
  Speaker B: I don't think a crazy contraption was mentioned, but you're right, it is.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker A: The contraption felt very burtony.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, this note was supposed to be in better. In the movie. My bad. I liked that the movie gave him a longer rivalry with Don Price because in the book, we don't meet him until he gets to college. But I liked that we got to see that kind of through the years. Yeah, and I like that it's also kind of one sided.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker B: Like, Don is always just over there staring at him.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker A: Don hates him, and he doesn't even. It's the Don Drake.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker A: The Mad Men meme.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker B: I don't think about you at all.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker A: I don't think about you at all. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker B: The woman bathing in the river and him saving her from a snake, which then turns into a stick. So this, like, random river goddess, also from the book, he travels for work.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker A: I was trying to figure out who I thought that was, and it's not. It's just the fish, they say. Yeah, but I thought, I was like, is that, like, is that Jenny? Like, is that Helen and Bonham Carter, or is that. It also looked like.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker B: Do you mean in real life or.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker A: No, I meant, like, in the movie and in real life, I guess, like, I assumed the movie would have it be somebody that we knew as sort of. Not an allegory, but, like, sort of symbolism y kind of thing. Of, like, if she is the fish, like, who is. Who is this woman? Who is the fish that. That ed is like, I was like, it's probably actually Sandra, maybe. I don't know. I was thinking it had to be somebody. We never see your face or anything like that.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker A: And I was just thinking it might be without really being an overt, like, thing. Like, oh, it's supposed to be Sandra or whatever, just as a filmmaker, I might have that character played by Sandra to kind of add a little weird layer of, like.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker B: I mean, it could be her. They're just both blonde and.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's what I was saying.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker B: And white.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. Just because we never see her face, it feels like her identity is something that matters. Yeah, to some extent. And again, we do find out, supposedly, that it's the fish, and she appears in this form, different forms to different people or whatever. But I was like, well, because it's appearing as this form of this woman to ed, it's probably, like, Sandra. Right? Like, maybe this thing that he wants and desires. Like, I don't know. That's what I was thinking, is that it's probably. But we. Again, it doesn't matter.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's more of just, like, a general representation of, like, his desire to always have, like, be seeking adventure and, like, um, aspiring to different things and stuff.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker A: Right, right. I know. I agree. I think if I'm a filmmaker and I'm doing that, I'm still making that somebody instead of just a random person. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still making that some even we never see them and it's never actually acknowledged who it is. Still making that somebody that maybe we know.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker B: Anyways, my last couple notes here. He is a traveling salesman for a brief period in the book because the thought of having a set schedule and a family life makes him sick. And, oh, we talked about that. He does purchase all of Spectre and leave it just as it is.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker A: Yep. All right. We got a handful of odds and ends before we get to the final verdict. So when this movie started and not started, but, like, pretty quickly into the movie, I had a crazy realization that blew my mind because even through all of the prequel and everything, which I'm sure listening back to the prequel, some of my words when I was talking about the casting of Ewan McGregor and Albert Finney, it makes no sense if you know what the story's about. I thought Ewan McGregor played the son. No, not the younger version of the father. I had no idea. I was so confused. Not confused, but I was like, oh, like when I realized what was going on there, because I think I even said in the prequel something about them playing father and son when that's not. They play the same guy, just different ages. But anyways, so that was interesting when I realized that there's a little brief scene in the film where when we're in France, we see Josephine. It's when he finds out that his dad has cancer. They come back and he gets a phone call and they're walking into their apartment with groceries. And Josephine's bag has the classic movie groceries, baguette sticking out the top. But I'm like, but they're in Paris, so it makes sense. Or at least more sense. Not that you can't get baguettes here, but, like, it's just as a classic thing. When you're putting groceries in a movie, you put a baguette in it because it sticks out. So you see something in the groceries.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker B: And it looks great, looks aesthetic.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker A: And again, it's just like it actually makes more sense here because they're in France.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker B: I had to go Google immediately as soon as we were introduced to Carl the giant, how tall that actor was. And he stood at 6ft and 7ft and six inches.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker B: Which is incredible.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's big, but it's not that big. Like, height wise. Like, there's pretty. I think there's quite a few NBA players. That are maybe not seven foot six. But pretty, like around seven foot, I think. I think Yao Ming was close to that height. And he was rare. Like, large for, you know, in size or whatever. But it is tall, but it's not. I don't think it's, like, wildly tall. Although I could be wrong about that. I don't actually know that for sure. Now I'm googling how tall Yao Ming was to see. Yao Ming was seven foot six. So wait.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker B: Was he.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker B: Or is he. He's still alive.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker A: Sorry. He is. He is. I say he was because he used to play in the. But, yeah, he is seven foot six. I think Shaq is over seven foot. Yeah. Shaquille O'Neal's seven foot one. So point being seven foot six. While very, very, very tall. Is not, like, out of this world tall.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker B: I think it's really funny.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker A: What?
• 1:10:09
  Speaker B: That you're not as impressed by height as me. I mean, because, you know, from five foot three. A lot of people look really tall to me.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker A: Right. I'm not saying he's not very tall. Seven foot six is very tall. I'm just saying he's not, like, tallest man in the world tall. He's just very tall.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker B: How tall is the tallest man in the world?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker A: I don't know what to tell me.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker B: Tall man.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker A: I don't know. But so one of the tallest men in the world was Robert Wadlow. I think he still may have been the tallest. I don't know if he still held that record or whatever. But he was eight foot eleven.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker B: That was pretty tall.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Seven foot six, while very tall. Is not like, world record tall. It's just like there are people who are seven foot six. Who play in the NBA again, Yao Bing was an outlier even in the NBA. But still. So specifically, this guy, I think, holds the record for largest feet. Or held the record for largest feet or something like that. He's just large all across the board. And not just height again. I believe he had some form of gigantism or something like that. Whereas I don't think, like, yao Ming does. I don't like, technically. Cause I think there are different medical conditions. I could be wrong about all of this. I don't actually know. But point being seven foot six, very tall. Just not like world record tall.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker B: You're all giants to me.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker A: So initially, I thought it was just on some of the flashbacks and specifically on the scene where he goes and meets the giant, but I realized it was kind of throughout the whole film. The color grading in this movie is very strange. I think it's related to the film stock, but I also. So throughout the movie, the skin tones in particular. But it's not just the skin tones. There's lots of, like, weird fluctuations and, like, things kind of bounce around from normal skin tones to teals to pinks to red, like, very subtly. And if you're watching on, like, a really crappy tv or something, or not really, like, you. You might not even notice it, but it. The skin tones and stuff fluctuate around, and I was like, okay, is that intentional, or is that the film stock? Even if it's the film stock, it could still be intentional, or is that something they didn't post? And I found an interview where somebody asked him about it, Tim Burton about it, and he apparently it was digital, and this is one of the first movies where Burton did a bunch of digital, like, post, like, color work and stuff like that. And so the color in this, he says, was, like, digitally done after the fact. It still doesn't look like to me. I think there's something going on with the film stock, like, where they're using. I don't know, somebody who's a color person. I suck at color stuff with film, and I've never really worked with. I've never worked with film film. I've worked with film for, like, still photography, but not shooting, like, a movie on actual film. So I know very little about that other than, like, the cursory stuff I learned in film classes. But to me, it looks like something is going on with the film stock and the way it was processed, and it doesn't look digital to me. But then again, Tim Burton said they did something digital. If they did it digital. They did this weird thing where it's moving, because it's not just the color itself, it's the fact that it changes constantly from, like, cell to cell. It's. I don't know. It's very interesting, and I would. I didn't have enough time to look deeper into what was going on with that. I'm sure somebody has written something about it somewhere. But anyways, I thought it was very fascinating, and I couldn't decide if I liked it or not, actually. I was like, I don't know if I actually like this. I think it works for this movie, but I'm not like. I don't know. I think it might still. I think the movie would work fine if you didn't have this weird, kind of, like, splotchy, like, messed up skin tone color thing going on. But also, it looks fine with what, the movies. I don't know.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker B: I had a thought when Will's wife, Josephine, was. She goes in and she's, like, talking to Edward. He's telling her stories. And I was like, man, she's a really good sport.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker B: Just an angel out here. Another thought I had. So when they're at the circus, the circus brings out their giant colossus. And then Edward just, like, laughs, laughs. And then the spotlight turns. Yeah. He pulls the spotlight over. He waves down the spotlight guy. And then Carl walks in, and I was like, man, why you gotta be putting colossus out of a job like that? Like, damn.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker A: I liked it. Because it's another. It's another moment. Even in this tall tale showcasing that, which is one of his character flaws, is that Ed, he's a one upper. He's a story topper. And that's, like, one of the things that. That will. One of the problems will has in their relationship is that he's a. He's a story topper. He's a one upper. If he, you know, if he thinks he has a better version of what you. The story you just told, he's like, oh, that's your. Oh, that's your giant. Check out my giant. Yeah.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker B: Also, did you catch the elephant pooping?
• 1:15:07
  Speaker A: Yes, I did catch the elephant.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker B: We talked about that in the prequel.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker A: That supposedly the camera operator, like, zoomed out. I don't. I guess they could have zoomed. I don't remember that many zooms in this movie to where I would have assumed they didn't shoot. They would have shot it on, like, prime lenses. But maybe that's on a zoom lens or whatever. But, yeah, they framed it in a way where they got the. They were able to somehow get the elephant pooping in there, apparently.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker B: I mean, it works really well in that moment.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker A: Yes, it does. According to the one thing I read, to me, it felt kind of apocryphal that it was like this miraculous surprise thing. I think they probably just sat there for a while, framed and waited, and eventually the elephant pooped and they were. Just used it. You know what I mean? Like, elephants, I think, poop fairly often. Like, I don't think it's like, I don't know anything. I think you could wait around for, like, an hour, probably. Like, if you. If you know. If you know, the elephant hasn't gone to the bathroom a while. Just wait around for a while and then, like, start. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's. I don't know. I don't feel like it's as much of a miracle as the.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker B: If you know how often elephants poop, let us know.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker A: I mean, I've seen elephants poop a lot at, like, the zoo and stuff to where it feels like it's not that rare of an occurrence, I guess, is my point. Like, it just doesn't seem like it's this, like, outlandish thing that they, like, happened to luck out and catch it on camera. Yeah, maybe. I just.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, Roy from the office is in this place.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker A: Oh, my God.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker B: David Denman.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker A: My note just says it's Roy who.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker B: Apparently made a career out of the only two things I've seen him in are where he plays a guy who almost gets the girl but then loses out to someone who isn't a meathead.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker A: Absolutely. That was exact same note. I was like, is this the only role Roy plays? And I know he's been in other stuff, but I've seen him in this, in the office and then, like, a couple other things, like in the back, like, never, like, prominently. And I couldn't get over that. He's just the exact same character as Roy from the office to the point where I feel like he was probably cast in the office for that role because of this movie. Like, I, like probably, I would imagine, because this movie came out in 2003, I think I said. And the office started in 2004, 2005. You know what I mean?
• 1:17:18
  Speaker B: Did it start that early?
• 1:17:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, the office started only a couple years after this movie came out.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker A: And I think it's very likely that part of the reason he was cast in that role is because it's literally the exact same role as this movie where he's this athletic dickhead who is engaged to, like, the ingenue in the story, and then she is stolen away by the quirky weirdo with the heart of gold or. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's like the exact same down to the thing where he punches, like, where he assaults the guy. Like, and. Yeah, and that's part of the. Yeah, just like, to a t. It's the exact same thing. It was cracking me up. I thought Billy Crudup was great in this. He plays will the sun. He had to absolutely nail his part, I think, for this film to work at all. In order for this film to even remotely land emotionally that role has to be like, perfect. And I thought he was just. I thought he did. I thought he crushed it. In particular, I thought the scene at the end where he is telling the story to his dad as he's laying in his deathbed was just so pitch perfect. Every little detail about how he delivers the lines at this whisper, the inflection.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker B: And the points where you can hear the emotion breaking in his voice is really great.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's so perfect. It was one of those actors who I never think of, like, Billy Crudup is not an actor who I like, ever jumps to my brain. But I realized, I was like, oh, we just saw him in Watchmen. He's Doctor Manhattan. Oh, yeah. I was like, why do I know? And I was like, oh, that's right, he's Doctor Manhattan. Yeah. Which again, to be fair, in most of that movie, he's a giant glow bluing, blue glowing man. You only see him as like a human for a brief part of that film, but. And the rest of the time, it's pretty hard to realize it's Billy crudup, but yeah, it is that. That's the same actor. There's this great. During that scene at the end where he's telling the story to his dad, he's talking about how they have to get to the river and they're rushing and they're driving in his Camaro or whatever, and there's traffic. And he's like, we have to take grand view to avoid the church traffic because the damn church people drive too slow. I was like, ain't that the truth?
• 1:19:23
  Speaker B: It's a universal truth. Everywhere you go.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker A: And when then when he gets to the lake or the river and he's talking, walking him down and all the people from his life are there like waiting by the riverbanks and he like, walks through them all. And I was like, oh, my God, did scrubs just steal the, the big fish ending? Because this is the end of scrubs where JD walks out of the hospital and every single person we've ever seen. And it's actually similar in the, in the sense that, like, the all from, like, even from like fantasies and stuff like that from. Cause scrubs does a whole lot of, like, fantasy scenarios and stuff like that. And even some of those fantasy characters are like, in. I think I could be wrong about that, are in like the scrubs. He walks down the hallway out of the hospital and they're all there, like saying goodbye to him. And it's very similar where it's shot from, like a first person perspective, like, looking at these people as you walk by. I was like, scrubs did the big fish ending and I didn't even realize.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker B: It now, you know?
• 1:20:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. And then my last note was just kind of on the story or on the movie as a whole, which I thought it was a very sweet story, and I am glad the father and son were able to connect and blah, blah, blah. I will say that I kind of agree with Will. I think the movie throws in a little, like, I don't know, a little wrinkle at the end where when the. The doctor that you mentioned is telling him about the day that.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker B: The real story of the day that he was born.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker A: The real story of the day that he was born and that his father was, like, waiting at the. Whatever, like, was. Was trying to get into the room, but they wouldn't let him in the room.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker B: Well, he. I don't think he was even there because I think the doctor says that he was, like, on the road and he was trying to get back, but he got delayed by something, but that.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker A: He wouldn't have been let into the room.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker B: Yeah. He wouldn't have been let into the room anyway because they didn't let fathers in at that time.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker A: Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. And he goes. So he tells this other version of the story because it's more interesting or whatever, and Will says to the doctor, he's like, I like your version, too, or the real version. He says something like that, where he's like, you know, I like your version, too, and I kind of agree with him. And it kind of soured me a little bit on the movie. I don't want to say a lot, just like a tiny bit. I still like the movie. I thought it was very affecting and got across what it was doing very well. And like I said, I enjoyed it. But the idea that it feels. I think there's some truth to what Will says here at the end, where he's like, you know, I like the real version, too.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker A: And as much as the movie wants to kind of round out and finish off by saying, look, this is the way that your father connected with you. This is who he is. He was telling you who he was by telling you these stories and stuff, I also still kind of, at the end, I'm like, but also, you can just talk to people like a normal human. Like, that's allowed. Like, you can do that. You know what I mean? And I think that's kind of the scene at the end where Will's like, you know, I like, the real version, too. I would have liked to hear that version of the story from my father. I think kind of like, that's what he says without really saying that. And I think that does kind of ring true to me in a sense, where it's like, yeah, like, I get what you're doing, movie, but also, because it also, I think another element of that that I thought kind of bothered me with where the movie ends up is, like, it also feels kind of wildly disrespectful to all these real people. Like, when we see them at the end, not wildly the of disrespectful, but a little weird and disrespectful to all these. When we see all the real people at his funeral at the end, like the siamese twins that aren't siamese twins. So he's been telling everybody in his life that he met this siamese twins who were joined, like, this weird, racist caricature of these people, when in reality they're just normal people. I don't know, there's this element of disrespect. I don't know, something about it. When you think about the fact that he's made up all these weird tales about all of these things that happened to him in his life, it's like one thing when it's purely about him and things he's been through, but when he's bringing these other people into it and telling their stories to some extent, a little bit, it feels. And, like, the giant, and he's like, oh, he's lifting cars and blah. Part of it feels a little like, well, I'm glad you enjoyed telling that story, but is that the story they wanted their life to be? I don't know. There's element. There's an all these people that are involved in your stories that you're telling about. There's some small element of it to me that still feels kind of shitty. Just a little bit. And again, I think the movie works. And I think it's like, again, I liked it. It's just. I don't know.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker B: I mean, I think, though, that that is what Will's line to the doctor is doing, is kind of acknowledging that, yeah, this is the way that his father was. And, like, we can't really do anything about that because that's just the way that this guy was, that we don't necessarily have to make him into, like, a God. Like, he's been mythologized in a way, but we don't necessarily have to, like, be putting him on a pedestal, because we can look at, like, the things that are real as well as these stories. We can hold them up next to each other.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I just think maybe. I think maybe the movie, by acknowledging it at all but not taking it any further, to me, felt like a little bit of a cop out. To me, that line of like, oh, I like your version, too. But then we still go on to have this big, sleeping, heartfelt funeral, and it just felt like the movie kind of very quickly tosses that in there and then doesn't really. That's fair. I don't know. It just, it just felt like kind of a throwaway line that, that the movie isn't really like a perspective, that the movie is not really interested in talking about at all. It just kind of, I mean, I.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker B: Think that is a fair point. I don't think the movie is interested in talking about that perspective.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, I just feel like the movie's not really interested in really acknowledging that, but just kind of put it in there to be like. I don't know. It's hard to explain. I just, I just kind of had a slight problem with how the movie wrapped up. And I think the movie ultimately still kind of does just completely celebrate and not justify, but I guess, justify or, like, glamorize, I guess, for lack of a better term, his father's wild storytelling ways. Like, the movie completely at the end is just like, yeah, and that's great. He was, wow, he's what? Such a storyteller. And that's just how he was. And wasn't it beautiful in a way, and then just kind of throws, like, a little bone of, like, well, but also, like, I guess it's kind of nice when you, like, actually just try to sincerely connect with people is also a good thing. But, like, nah, let's not really, ah, who cares?
• 1:25:58
  Speaker B: Like, let's be honest, though. Hollywood has a long and glorious history of glamorizing storytellers.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker A: Yes. And I don't have a problem with glamorizing storytellers, obviously. I count myself, I like to count myself as a storyteller. It's one of the things I like to do. It's just that I don't think the movie maybe takes as seriously or just, or, like, vindicates Will's frustration quite as much as it should. To me, it feels like it airs a little bit too much on the side of vindicating the father's perspective without really, while just giving the slightest little meager crumb to Will's perspective. You know what I mean, yeah, because Will is just desperate to feel like his father is actually connecting with him and, like, telling him things that are true and like, that he knows who his father is. And again, the whole point is that, yes, buried in these stories is the truth. This is how your father talks. You are getting to know your father through these tall tales. But it's a give and a take. Like, the movie forces will to completely come to where his father is and gives nothing for his father to come to meet Will where he is. You know what I mean?
• 1:27:11
  Speaker B: His father doesn't agree with that.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that was what I found a little frustrating at the end, was like, there's literally zero give from the father and 100% give from Will. And I think it's valid. I think there should be some give from Will, an acknowledgement of who his father is and the way he is and the stories he tells and what that means about him and their relationship and all that sort of things. I think it's important that Will makes that journey. I just wish we would have maybe given a little bit from the other direction, and it just feels like it doesn't. And again, it's not a big complaint. It's just a small complaint that I, I was felt left. Left feeling a little bit unsatisfied with at the end.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker B: Anyways, if it makes you feel any better, the book doesn't even give that little crumb.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker A: Fair enough. All right, before we wrap up or before we get to the final verdict, we want to remind you, you can do us a giant favor by heading over to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, goodreads threads, any of those places. Follow us like us, interact with us, so we can see what you had to say about big fish. What do you think? Do you disagree? Am I. Am I wrong in saying with that the movie is giving the father too much of the benefit of the doubt and the son not enough in this relationship? I don't know. Like I said, it's not a major issue, but I would like to hear some other perspectives on it, because that was a thing that just kind of stuck with me a little bit at the end. Do that on all of those social media platforms. Also, you can head over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you're listening to us. Make sure you, if this is your first episode, subscribe. Make sure you're hearing all of our episodes and otherwise drop us a little five star rating. Write us a nice little review. We'd appreciate that. If you would truly like to support us, the best way possible. Head over to patreon.com thisfilmislit. Support us there for a few bucks a month. At different levels. You get access to different things at the $5 level and up you get access to bonus episodes. Every month we put out a bonus episode where we talk about whatever we want. The April episode has already been out. It's been out since March. Actually, we put it at the end of March, where we did our runner up for the March Madness bracket, which was the Disney's Alice in Wonderland from 1951. I believe that was where we talk about that. So if you want to hear our opinions on that, you can go check that out and we will have what's our next month?
• 1:29:15
  Speaker B: Next month is the land before time.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker A: There you go. Next month we're talking about in May, we'll be talking about land before time. And you get access to that and all the back catalog at the $5 level. And at the $15 level you get access to priority recommendations. Or if you have something that you'd really love for us to talk about on this podcast, support us for $15. Request it and we'll do it. It's that simple. Katie, it's time for the final verdict.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker B: No, sentence passed. Verdict after. That's stupid. Unlike an Edward bloom tall tale, this one's going to be short and sweet. I'm picking the movie this week. I didn't dislike the book. I thought it was okay, but for me it didnt really have the heart or the charm of the movie. I also thought that a lot of the books, tall tales werent all that tall, but that could be its own essay. On its own, I think the movie is pretty good. I dont know if its incredible, but I think its pretty good. Compared to the book, it easily came out on top for me. Overall, I think this is a case where the medium of film just had an advantage. You have sound and visuals to help bring these fantastical tales to life, and you have a great lineup of acting talent to provide the charm and the humanity. And it's primarily for those reasons that I'm giving this one to the movie.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker A: All right, Katie, what's next?
• 1:30:45
  Speaker B: Up next, we will be talking about Nemona, which is a graphic novel by ND Stevenson and a 2023 film.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker A: Yep, just came out last year. Sweet. All right, that'll be in two weeks time. We'll be talking about Nemona, but come back in one week's time. We'll preview Nemona and see what you all had to say about big fish. Until that time guys, gals on binary pals and everybody else.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker B: Keep reading books, keep watching movies, and keep being awesome.