Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 295 - The Martin Film Paradox

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 295 - The Martin Film Paradox · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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Hey there, this is Mark Gruber along with my girlfriend Derek Kuntley from America's
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Really Old Stories. You are about to hear the most listened to exclusively jfk
0:13
Assassination podcast and one of my favorites, the Lone Gunman Podcast. Now,
0:19
here's Rob and Joe. Section one oh seven of the Fair Use Act of
0:24
nineteen seventy six provides protection to use copyrighted material for research, analysis, education,
0:30
and commentary purposes. We hear at Loose Moose Productions reserve that right now
0:36
on with the show. Here's Joe B and the Triple B. Hey,
0:40
and you Deane. How's things in Texas? Everything is going to heyl down
0:45
here in darkon Jen Jo Yo me yow me and jum Yo me rock John
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yao U Joe me show me? Did you're we Memby and Jomy Rock Rocky
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Damn And here we go and here we go, Robbie, Mrida, Hello,
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and welcome to the show. This is episode number two hundred ninety five.
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And if you're good at reading lips, you know what I just said.
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And uh anyway, uh this is the Martin Film Pair Docs is what
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we're talking about here today. And we happen to have a couple of very
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special guests with us, Alex Harris and Kenneth Zedeker, and of course my
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handsome co host there, Joe Borelli. What's up? Joe, Hey,
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what's up? Ron? What's up? Everyone in the chat and Alex and
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Kenneth. It is great to have you guys on yues. Welcome to the
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show. Fellas, thank you, thank you. Awesome to have you here.
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And I know we've been trying to get you on here for a while
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Alex, and it's an added bonus. We got Kenneth here tonight as well.
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And from the top of the show, I just want to let everybody
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know about the November conference, the JFK Lancer Conference coming up. It's going
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to be Is it the twenty second to the twenty fourth this year, Kenneth?
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I guess it is. Yeah, And I got the information. What
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hotel is the that UH to put you on the spot? Yeah, the
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Dallas Areacht in downtown, gotcha. Yeah, and the UH. The the
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link for all this can be found down in underneath the video in the in
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the UH in the bio section. There the link and if you use our
3:27
code Gunman ten, you can save ten percent off your ticket prices and uh
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than some of the featured speakers already this year is Alex who we have here.
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What are you gonna be talking about Alex this year? If you want
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to preview that, I'm trying to figure out as of right now. What
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I have planned is I'll be speaking about some film savianizations I've been doing,
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which could be really interesting because I haven't seen anyone do it before. Yeah,
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we'll get we'll get more into that a little later, because I'm sure
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we've got some people that want to help you out that are local there to
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Dallas. Robert Groden of course, good friend of you, guys, Janet
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Groden, his wife, Bob Nelson, Willie O'Halleran Dirty Dick Russell, Larry
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Hancock, David Boyling, Mike Swanson, and Daniel Sheen. So so far,
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a very healthy lineup for sure. So get your tickets now, reserve
4:31
your spots. It's an assassination conference dot com And like I said, the
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link you can find the link below, just click it, follow it and
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get your tickets early. So Joe, let's keep right into the show here,
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buddy, And you'd never know one of us could be there too.
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You hang with the boys or a boy. Yeah, you might see Joe
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crash on a scooter again if you're lucky this year. Hey, I see
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this here. Yes, you've healed quite nicely. Well not really, but
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yeah, that's why your nickname is Scars. It is. But I'm going
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to redeem myself. I'm going to do a scooter ride in front of the
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Marriott with all the smoking section to see. And I might even do a
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recreation of one of the motorcycle riders that goes up the knoll so I could
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figure out how to jump a curb and throw the scooter down and go behind
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the fence. Look for people there you go the reenactment, Alex, I'm
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volunteering here and he's very cheap. Alex. You know I'm free. Actually
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it's for my confidence. And well, before we kick it off, there
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was a death recently. Donald Sutherland, the guy who played mister the Mister
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X character in the movie JFK, recently passed away. And I know this
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is probably pretty stupid to say, but if you haven't seen the movie JFK
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by Oliver Stone from nineteen ninety one, yet, uh you know, go
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give it a watch. It's one of it's a great movie, you know,
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it really is. And and and just just to highlight a little bit
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of the Donald Sutherland part from it, we're gonna play it a short clip
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here from the movie, and uh, which will get us a copyright infringement,
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I'm sure, but that's okay because Donald Sutherland's worth it, because he's
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a great actor who did tons of great movies. JFK was just one of
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them. And so here's one of his iconic parts. It's like a minute
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and a half clip, but check it out. And uh, you know,
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poor a little out on the ground. Ant you dean poor some loan
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star on the ground for Donald Sutherling big money, one hundred billion dollars.
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Kennedy Brothers target voting districts for those defense tellers. They give KFX fighter contracts
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only to those counties that are going to make a difference in sixty four.
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And the people in the loop they fight back their way. We have to
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control the intelligence from psychology. Well, just don't let McNamara starts sticking his
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damn nose in this thing. Every time he goes over to Saigon on some
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fucking fact finding mission. He comes back and just scares the shit out of
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the president. Now, won't Max Tall your own new night and day like
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a fly home shit. Now you control Macnamara and you control Kennedy. I
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think gets started like that in the wind, defense contractors, big oil bankers,
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just conversations. Nothing more than a call is made, maybe to someone
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like my superior officer general. Why yeah, we're going we need your help
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when in the fall, probably in the South, we want you cover with
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I can do that. Everything is secularized. No one has said he must
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die. There's been no vote, nothing's on paper. There's no one to
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play it as old as the crucifixion a military firing squad, five bullets,
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one blank. No one's guilty because everyone in the power structure who knows anything
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has a plausible deniability. There are no compromising connections except at the most secret
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point. But what's paramount is that it must succeed, no matter how many
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dye, no matter how much it costs. The perpetrators must be on the
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winning side and never subject to prosecution for anything by anyone that is Accoudedi,
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Wow, bravo, bravo, bravo. Now the real scene is like seven
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minutes long of course you don't want to play all of it's there, but
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you get a little taste of it. But anyway, Yeah, r I
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p rest in peace, sir. You did a good long life and you
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entertained millions and millions and will continue to do so as long as everybody has
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Internet and YouTube's around. You never know, and Rob, yes, sir,
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so probably I want to share a quick picture and story about Donald Sutherland
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too, not about pay but in one of the most classic movies of all
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time, The Dirty Doesn't Jim Brown Brownson was his first name, Charles or
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no thanks so and so there were like twelve people that were essentially facing life
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in prison. They did a secret mission and they were undercover. So Donald
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Sutherland had to play a general and like walked around inspected the troops and he
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was It was just so funny. He was such a fool and it was
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just a great scene. This picture here has him turning around and making a
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face at his fellow off soldiers. He's a great actor and rest in peace.
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I'm sure most of the people watching this have much familiarity with Yeah.
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And he gave us keefer you know, so you know the line will continue,
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you know, classics, Lost Boys and flat Liners and all this cool
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four Yeah, twenty four Rabbit Hole. That was a great series. By
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the way, if you haven't watched it, I have not. Check it
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out on Paramount Plus she plugged. But anyway, let's get into what our
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guests are here for. Joe, because it's been a couple of months,
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I would say that I think alex and and Ken has brought this home movie
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to our attention, and the reason being is because it resembled the John T.
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Martin film. I don't know if we do we have that to play
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real quick or didn't or no? What was referring back the original? The
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original? We do? Yes, Okay, let's take a look at that,
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just to refresh everybody's memory about what was on the John T. Martin
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films. It's not that long, so yeah, jove, Yeah, it
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is very dark. This is the sixth floor copy, Yes, the sixth
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floor museum copy, which we have to believe, shout out to and here
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we go. It is silent, so Rob and I have narrated in the
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past. This is him in Minnesota. He's taking a video of his plane
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brand of Airlines Airways Clouds. He is flying where Rob above the flat earth
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on his way to Dallas, Texas. Love Field. Yes, and we
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will get into why we think he went to Dallas and Rob and I had
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uncovered a lot last year on our journey of the Martins and Lancer. He
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is now in New Orleans. He is now filming the Bullet Hole. The
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Bullet Hole, which which is right here. We'll show you another slide from
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the Shackleford pictures that is much clearer and a little bit. And his house
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that looks like it's midnight, General Walker, Edward Walker in the mailbox there
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you can't see it. Show a picture of that as well. There's a
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better picture. Yeah. And is that a building under construction and Daily Plaza
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or no? Do you guys know? I don't believe so, because I
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know there was a there was a building under construction in Daily Plaza at the
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time of the assassination. Yeah, that was the the new courthouse where they
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tried Jack rubya out, got you interesting? It might be, I don't
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know. Yeah. And this is back to in front of Walker's house.
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There's I think three or four people there, ones walking down the steps,
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three or two are sitting. Yes, there's a house boys, Yes,
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apparently yes, mm hmm ok and it's so dark. Guys. So he's
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on the plane again, Rob, where's it going? Yep? Now we
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are going over Shreveport, Louisiana right about now, on our way to New
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Orleans, and we'll land in New York Orleans. And what else do you
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do when you go to New Orleans? You know you want to you go
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to the zoo, maybe see some gators, yeah, some pythons, possums.
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It's it's darkened significantly. You can't make anything here. You know where
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you are. You're in the jungle. Welcome to the jungle. It's worth
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your every day. And uh, we're going to get to the oswalt fracas
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soon in New Orleans after this steal or es. Yes, that is the
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sea kitten and there we go. Yes, this will come into play later.
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That's the statue of Andrew Jackson and Jackson Square and there's Oswaltz on the
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left there, Yes, bringing a here we believe right, m No,
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I don't know. Okay, we'll see another slide of this, but it's
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extremely dark. This is the post, it's the handbills tore up. Yes,
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and time to get the hell out of New Orleans. Apparently yes,
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and we think he went back to Minnesota after that because as we will get
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to shortly, John T. Martin. So the community had like a consensus
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right when before we come to this deep dive that John Thomas Martin served under
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Walker and took this film and somehow got Oswald on teape and it was a
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minuteman, a card carrying extreme right wing miniman and that was pretty much what
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the community thought when it was releasing around two thousand and eight, I think
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it became available to the community. Yeah, but it turns out he was
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young enough. He was too young to have served under Walker. He was
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seventeen years old in nineteen sixty three when he graduated high school. And of
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course this video was shot, you know, the summer after he graduated from
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high school, so he couldn't possibly have served in the military under General Walker.
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But he definitely was a teen in the Minimen organization. You know,
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we found the FBI cards. The information checks out, so it is possible
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that he was corresponding with Walker as somebody who was an extreme right wing figurehead
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at that time, you know, would have been idolized by somebody like a
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young, impressionable John T. Martin, right, So it's possible that he
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could have been corresponding with him. You know, so when he gets to
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Dallas, Hey, hey, coming to Dallas. It would be cool if
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I came to visit you, you know, type of thing. And of
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course general Walker's like, sure, come on by. So obviously he was
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inside the man's house because you're looking out the window that the bullet hole came
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through. Okay, So obviously either Walker was there and he talked to him,
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or his house boys let him in for whatever reason, and Walker wasn't
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there. You know, you don't know because Walker's not on the video,
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but if he was there, it could have been very possible that, you
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know, this young John T. Martin said yeah, me and my family
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are going to New Orleans when we leave here, and you know, Walker
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could have said, oh, hey, well when you get there, go
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talk to this guy the names guy Banister, you know, type of thing.
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And then when he got there, Banister could have tasked this young kid
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with, hey, you know about this time, you know, why don't
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you go over there on Canal Street and just videotape this guy. There's gonna
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be a fight, cops, will We're gonna be there, just get it
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on a video, you know, and then bring it back to me type
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of thing. I don't know. Yeah, but yes, sir, I
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was gonna say, I think we might be getting a little ahead of ourselves
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because we wanted to give Alex and Kenneth an opportunity to kind of tell what
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they're up to. I think an oral history is coming up and re enactment.
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We just wanted to give a little background. And we're going to show
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a possible other Martin film that's very similar in sequence to this. But before
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we finish all the Martin stuff, I feel like we should sandwich it together
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and do a little tease about them and go to Martin Film two at the
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end. What do you think? I don't know. You're steering the show
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now, so go ahead and where we go. It's up to you.
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Okay, Well, we were getting there. I just would laying the groundwork
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for folks who may not be know what the John T. Martin film is.
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Yep, because not very many people got to see this film until two
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thousand and eight. A very select few ever even saw this film. From
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the very beginning, only the FBI had seen it. Jim Garrison had seen
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it, he was sent a copy by John T. Martin. Harold Weisberg
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and Gary Schoener had copies made of it in sixty eight, and then I
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believe he gave it to the HSCA. Then it wasn't seen or hurt again
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until two thousand and eight, so not very many people had ever seen this
20:07
movie, okay, and it was deemed you know, not interesting by the
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FBI, you know, of no value. Right, So when I believe
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we cann of tell everybody how you came across this other and quote Martin home
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movie. All right, Well, it's started when I was looking for a
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lot of photo graphs and films of where Kennedy was killed, and that spanned
20:52
for years. I would purchase bibes and priends, I would, and then
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I started looking up home films like on eight Philip Meter, People's trips out
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here, and I found one. I purchased it, I believe it was
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in twenty eighteen. I put it in a drawer and it just sat there
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for years. Alex wanted to digitize some of the stuff I had, so
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I loaned them my films and the equipment, and then one day he calls
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me up and well, Harold, so I believe it was. I believe
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it was actually the day that you dropped the stuff off. I think you
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had a little extra time. So we went ahead and looked through one of
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these films to find the scene of Julli plant, because you hadn't looked at
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this film before, right, So I decided, since I had an alimator
22:10
film viewer, I just started pulling the film off and we started looking.
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We eventually found the Daily Plaza on there, and I was interested in what
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was well on the rest of it, so I started pulling a few more
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feet of film off. It was about i'd estimate ten feet later on the
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film, I saw a statue that I recognized from the John T. Martin
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film. At first, I didn't think it was the same statue because there's
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you know, hundreds of statues that are similar to that, not exactly the
22:48
same. But but then I took a closer look and compared it with the
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actual Martin film and confirmed it was the same statue. And then I scanned
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it and found out there's a quite a few other things that line up with
23:06
the Martin film, including General Edwin Walker's house and day Plaza as well.
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Yeah, well, the same one, right, because it went from Walker
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and Dallas to New Orleans. And obviously, when this film was made in
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sixty four March, I believe Oswald was already dead. So you're not going
23:30
to catch a street fractice again, right, But there's a lot of consistencies,
23:36
like you've been saying, between the Martin film that we just showed a
23:40
little over two minutes and the one we're going to show some pieces of in
23:45
a little bit. So yeah, all right, Yeah, so Rob,
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I have a couple just to give people, well, actually, you know
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what, let's before we do that and finish with the Martin stuff. Let's
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uh, Alex, I know you have some exciting events coming up and some
24:11
things you're working on or Yeah, So as of right now, so I
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talked before earlier this year, I believe in another podcast about a renac when
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I was planning on doing and for right now at least, I'm not going
24:34
to be able to do it this year. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm not
24:37
going to be able to do it, but for as of right now,
24:45
I there's not it's not possible for me to do it this year, so
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we'll have to ree schedule that for most likely next summer, and you can
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find the details someplace else. I have it on a blog that I have.
25:04
But coming up next Tuesday, I'm going to go to the sixth Museum
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and do an oral history with them. Kenneth will be taking me, and
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that'll be a very unique oral history for them, I believe, because I'm
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the youngest person to have presented at the Lantern Conference, at any conference,
25:27
I believe, and to you know, do this sort of research as in
25:33
depth as I'm doing, will you be the youngest ever oral history person,
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I believe. So that's pretty pretty cool, pretty cool. Heck yeah,
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and that's next week, you said, yeah, next Tuesday. Awesome,
25:56
that is amazing. I can't wait to listen to that. Yeah. Yeah.
26:03
So the whole conundrum of the Martin film is the original Martin film and
26:07
why it's so interesting is because of what it contains. And this is filmed
26:14
prior to the assassination. You know, you have General Walker, the alleged
26:19
shooting victim of Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly, and also Lee Oswald on the same
26:29
role of film. You know, it's pretty crazy. So when we're talking
26:36
about this second film that Kenneth filmded that Alex digitized and they were able to
26:41
look finally see what's on it. You know, some pretty crazy similarities come
26:47
up in this second film that was just Mark Dealey Plaza, you know.
26:53
And we're going to take a look at some of the bits of that movie
27:00
that was shot or yeah, in nineteen sixty four, at least on a
27:03
roll from nineteen sixty four. So this is gonna be post assassination, but
27:08
not by much. And at this point, the only people that had seen
27:14
the Martin film were the FBI. Garrison didn't get it until sixty six or
27:19
sixty seven. So by this time the only people that have seen the Martin
27:25
film is the FBI and the Martin family supposedly, which makes Kenneth's fine in
27:32
this second film all the more interesting when you actually see what's on it.
27:37
So, Joe, let's take the people through this second what we're calling this
27:42
second Martin film. All right, let me share this. Can you see
27:48
it? Okay? Yes? Yeah, So there is no sound. I
27:56
have some take through the interesting parts. So we are on a bus in
28:03
Dallas. We should have put some country music behind this, Joe, I
28:19
feel like people like our narration, like some Johnny Cash would be perfect alone
28:23
with the thing. Well, we're gonna get to an interesting part right about
28:30
here here boom, So this guy's I want to point out. Yeah,
28:37
I like to point out this is interesting because it's taken from a bus stopped
28:41
in front of Walker's house, which seems very odd to me. I don't
28:48
believe obviously there wasn't tours on the assassination back then, and I don't believe
28:56
that the only way that could have happened was for someone to specifically ask the
29:00
driver to stop in front of Walker's house. Well, let me ask you
29:07
a question without really knowing too much on the layout of downtown Dallas. Here
29:12
general Walker's house was on Turtle Creek Boulevard, right, Is that very close
29:18
to downtown or is that some kind of like rural area, because I think
29:23
part of the motorcade came down Turtle Creek, didn't it Turtle Creek. Yeah,
29:30
it's close to downtown. It's not exactly you know, central Dallas,
29:34
but it's right. It's not, you know, a rural part of town.
29:41
It's somewhat in between like a sub sub Probably is too too close to
29:48
be a suburb, right, Yeah, it's just yeah, it's just a
29:52
smaller part of town basically because if I'm remember in correctly, part of the
29:57
motor cad came down Turtle Creek. Yeah, on the way to Deally,
30:00
you know, so it's definitely in between, right, Yeah, And this
30:11
is obviously Walker's front yard. You can see the Confederate flag his mailbox,
30:15
which will so you will close up later. From both the six floor copy
30:18
and another copy from the nineties, you have the Texas flag here, I
30:23
believe, guys, very interesting. A couple more seconds of this it did
30:29
stop, Alex, You're right, and they continue to he loves the film
30:40
buildings here, but we're going to jump to about two minutes, and he
30:44
is on a plane like John T. Martin was, but he is going
30:49
over what we think is Dallas. What I think is Dallas. We'll see
30:52
it in this couple seconds here. There it is. He's going to zoom
30:56
in up. This is crazy. We got it. We've got General Walker's
31:00
house. We got aerial views, yeah, on both films so far.
31:06
And it doesn't seem like the play's going fast. It almost looks like helicopter
31:10
the type thing. I don't know, maybe maybe alone but now this is
31:17
a big place. Yeah, so I believe that's Dallas. I'm not sure,
31:25
but yeah, very interesting. Nonetheless, because as we'll see coming up,
31:30
Let's go to the next time stamp, which is four minutes here,
31:40
and we are going to Walker's house again again. And you can see the
31:48
two flags the mailbox. So yeah, now this time it doesn't look like
31:52
they're on a bus. Am I tripping? Ok? We will play the
31:59
next couple seconds. I'm not one hundred percent sure. I think you're You're
32:02
right, Rob, It's much slower. You can see the two flags there
32:07
still, the mailbox, the three kind of triangle tops of the house.
32:13
The wind is blowing here and slow look at the slow and zoom in.
32:20
I mean, this is what he wanted to film. Okay, so now
32:23
we go through another couple of minutes of this and who wants to guess,
32:28
I'll put you on the spot, Rob, where we go next? Ts?
32:36
Oh? Yeah, well, you got to visit Daily Plaza, especially
32:38
in March to sixty four. I mean, if you're going to Dallas,
32:42
this is where this is where the action took place. Through let's see some
32:45
footage of deal. Actually have something that is in the slides. And I
32:52
haven't told you guys, Alex and Kennet's about this yet because I just noticed
32:57
in the next few seconds it seems to show the New Orleans. What's that
33:04
Dome the sports stadium that they have there. Oh, I know, I
33:09
don't know. Okay, you're gonna see it here. I think he's in
33:13
new Ark. It looks like it's Dallas. But one two the Superdome where
33:21
they have the Super Bowls. That looks like New Orleans. But we're gonna
33:24
go to the TSPD right after this, So that makes no sense. And
33:30
I don't think super dome's that old Joe, I don't know. Again,
33:36
I don't think it was there in sixty three. I don't know. But
33:38
the Cowboys did play in nineteen sixty three. It could be them too,
33:43
for sure, because I find it weird it would jump. Let's see.
33:49
Okay, we're gonna get to the TSBD right here. He's on the bus.
33:52
Still, we're back on the bus. Yeah, that's a historic house,
34:00
the oldest house in America with a chimney. Yeah. I was looking
34:07
at this wheel on the bottom left here it kind of looks like a bus
34:10
driver's big Yeah. Bar so Look at how whoever made this film zooms in
34:20
had the bus driver stop where they were at traffic. Look at where he
34:23
zooms in here And granted this was four or five months after, so very
34:30
plausible, but very interesting. And there's a television camera right there. Yeah,
34:40
yeah, is that in front of the County Records Building? I believe.
34:45
So. I wonder why the pointed there at the school book depository.
34:52
That's weird. Yeah. And okay, so this right here, this Joel
35:00
Hotel is a famous hotel in New Orleans. So now we are in New
35:04
Orleans. Roum. Yes, that's the Young Hotel. Yeah, yeah,
35:10
not the Jones. Yeah, let's see. Yeah, you can see New
35:16
Orleans Plaza days and boom rob. Where are we now, folks, We'll
35:24
show you in just a second where we are. The Union must die.
35:36
I don't know, No, I don't know that shall be humh. I
35:43
can't making that out. Mhm. So remember the horse the Andrew Jackson right
35:51
Rob and the JT. Martin film, Yes, this is that. But
35:57
John Martin was on the other side of this statue looking away. Yeah,
36:00
so he was over there in front of that church looking building looking towards us.
36:07
M M. Hmm. Yeah. And like I said, this is
36:09
a very famous statue pose of a man on a horse with a horse rearing
36:14
back, but it is the exact same one. There's one that resembles it
36:21
heavily in front of the White House actually in the Lafayette Park. But really
36:28
it could be it's like as a twin twin statue, brother, you know.
36:31
But I'm sure they're all over the place, and the so that I've
36:35
been torn down yet, yeah, probably, But so I went through this
36:40
whole film. I kind of jeff Davis, Jefferson Davis, the Confederate general,
36:47
right and and Confederate president. Yeah, this guy whoever took this video
36:55
is extreme, right. He goes through I know Alex mentioned statue, there
37:00
are a lot of them. He must go through a dozen different statues in
37:02
Dallas and New Orleans and old houses. So it's it's very interesting. But
37:07
the sky is definitely leaning right. And how would you know, you know,
37:13
you can know to go to Dallas in March of sixty four, right,
37:16
Texas school Book Depository. Everyone knew about it. But how would you
37:20
go to New Orleans and take very similar type of footage of the Martin that
37:25
the Martin film had and now this dude went to Canal Street after this.
37:32
That's that's it. We're done. He could be seeing the statues. I'm
37:43
skipping here, but see if you see Canal Street another one. Well,
37:49
see there there's also a park like right across from where five point forty four
37:52
km Street was in New Orleans that has three statues in it. Actually would
38:01
be this, And again we're not going to play seventeen minutes of this,
38:08
which would be interesting because that's where guy Banister's offices were in nineteen sixty three
38:15
and nineteen sixty in March of sixty four until he died. Yep, and
38:22
we are back rom back in the city Hall at the end sixteen of seventeen
38:28
minutes in he films it again just in case he's gonna get it for the
38:31
first time, and that is he is in between city Hall is back to
38:38
the statue. Now. Now some folks are asking in the comments, guys,
38:44
did you think that this film that you guys found was had been edited
38:47
in any way or spliced together in any way. So the thing is yes
38:55
and no. The thing is this film. The only reason that it's that
39:01
long is because it's several roles of film from the same person spliced together to
39:07
make it that long, because the role of eight milimeter film was only four
39:09
minutes out of the camera. But this person splice this film together from several
39:19
roles that they took, presumably very close to each other, to give it
39:24
like almost a storyline, to like present it in a way. Usually people
39:30
would do it to show their family, but in this instance, I'd say
39:35
it was to put all this relevant film together. Yeah, kind of a
39:39
vacation reel. Basically, not necessarily to edit it in a way to cover
39:45
up something, but edited in that it wouldn't be that long that wasn't edited.
39:53
Yeah, and we're not talking. You have to be a rocket scientist
39:55
to splice eight millimeter film together. Back in the day it was cut snif
40:00
and you're good, you know. Yeah, that's kind of a thought I
40:07
had on the original Martin film, right, because you have to admit the
40:09
odds of going to Walker's house filming the bullet, which I guess happened in
40:16
April right of sixty three, and then making it to the fractice. That's
40:22
a good amount of time difference right in the events there. So I have
40:29
always kind of suspected that maybe the Martin film as we know it now was
40:35
possibly sliced together. If not what Rob and I had discovered, and I
40:40
have a couple of slides I'll talk about it. It was. We came
40:45
up with a very plausible reason for how we could have gotten both on camera
40:52
at the same time. But it's still a mystery, and we don't know.
40:58
We tease last show, we were still to find this guy and have
41:01
him tell us why or what he did, or this is so crazy.
41:07
The odds of the original Martin film of getting you know, not only the
41:14
accused assassin of the President, but also the accused shooter of General Walker on
41:17
the same film as you're filming, also filming General Walker's house about the shooting.
41:25
You know, the odds of that happening organically are a trillion to one,
41:31
you know? And now, what are the odds of a second film
41:37
showing up a couple months later, and nobody's ever seen the first film yet
41:42
except the FBI, and it has a lot of the same elements in it
41:46
as well, you know? Or are we just totally off base and this
41:52
is just they're just hitting the high points of the of the tourist trade in
41:55
Dallas and New Orleans. I don't know it's possible. Yeah, it's just
42:01
crazy. Yeah. And to your point, Rob, let me know if
42:10
you can see this. This is John T. Martin on the right in
42:15
nineteen sixty three. He was a senior at Creaton High School, which is
42:19
a military school. He was an RTC. And his description he's quoting the
42:24
Bible, plants, enter politics, classical music, chess, chess, chess,
42:30
very conservative, Republican, wants to abolish the Supreme Court. And very
42:37
interesting because we were able to confirm that this is the actual John T.
42:42
Martin because as we will show you, we found the student directory for the
42:46
University of Minnesota while he was there, and we found his name, John
42:52
Thomas Martin in the directory and the seventeen fifty two Engelhart address. He's majoring
43:00
in science and Literature and the Arts, graduating class of sixty seven. That's
43:06
right here. That lines up with his nineteen sixty three graduation from high school.
43:10
Four years and just to confirm, we have his minute man card here
43:16
on the bottom right, bottom left, I'm sorry, and chess music,
43:24
MICROSCOPI think he's majoring in science and this is his minute man card. This
43:30
is from an FBI document. The bottom right is the same address from his
43:35
University of Minnesota and his the top senior bile from Cretan Military Academy Chess Chess.
43:43
It all lines up. He didn't serve under General Walker. He was
43:45
a student and a fan of General Walker, like Rob was saying, we
43:50
think he might have gone and visited him and possibly be given another assignment,
43:55
and whether that was to go see Banister or go film the Coami, of
44:00
course we don't know. This is copies of the documents when John T.
44:06
Martin sent his film into the FBI. So you're talking about the special Agent
44:12
in charge Minneapolis and New Orleans, and they're talking about the airtel of the
44:17
film that John Martin took as you could see the same address seventy to fifty
44:22
two Anglehart forward to see if the film would be reviewed to determine any value.
44:29
And about a month later, in January twenty first, nineteen fifty four,
44:34
the FBI follows up, especially in charge of Minneapolis, the film obtained
44:38
by from John Martin has been viewed at the New Orleans office and found to
44:45
contain nothing of value in this case, so we got it back, but
44:50
we think he didn't get the full original back and he believed that as well.
45:00
Yeah, he believed that his film had been edited by the FBI when
45:05
he got it back. And there was another film that a teenage boy filmed
45:09
of the street Fractice in New Orleans at the same time John T. Martin
45:14
was filming his film. That footage was also turned over to the FBI,
45:19
and they also believed that their film had been edited to remove some things by
45:27
the FBI before they got it back, and that thing that they edited out.
45:35
And I wish I could remember the name of this other family that was
45:37
filming there, but then last name escapes me right now. But Doyle,
45:43
Yeah, the Doyle family. Yeah, they said there was somebody else there
45:49
with Oswald on Canal Street handing out literature wearing a well, I think Oswald
45:57
was wearing the placard, but there was someone else with him, and that
46:04
person has been edited out of both films, which is interesting. Very Yeah,
46:09
and to what you were talking about Rob earlier, we had some slides
46:14
from the nineties from Mark Martin Shackelford, I believe shout out to him,
46:19
and on the left is his slide and you can tell it's much clearer.
46:22
You could see the bullet hole right where my cursor is. And on the
46:27
right side that's a six' four copy. It is cropped, it is
46:30
darkened, and it looks like part of the tree almost right. You can't
46:35
tell. Yeah, And that darkened copy allegedly is the copy that John T.
46:43
Martin received back from the HSCA. And that copy has the date on
46:49
the film of nineteen seventy seven, which is not his original film yep.
46:55
And this is another side by side of the Walker Mailboy and the sixth floor
47:01
copy on the left also darkened and a little cropped, just a big difference.
47:07
And this is a different picture picture of the slides of the Oswald fractice.
47:14
You could see Oswald in the left on both sides here and obviously a
47:19
difference as well. So that's just some slides that prove that General Walker or
47:28
John T. Martin was in his house. We did follow up on John
47:31
T. Martin. He's been donating to Cretan in the past decade ish a
47:39
few times, so we believe he's still alive. And this was our guess
47:47
of We found a picture of the reunion. This is who we think he
47:51
is. We don't know. All we want to do is talk to him
47:54
and get some statement for history purposes. But this was our best guest Rob.
48:01
Yes, and that is some of the background on the mysterious Jumpsleman that
48:09
took this because we got some questions, John t. We got some questions,
48:16
you know, hey, did you talk to Walker? You know,
48:22
how do you go from the statue of Andrew Jackson all the way back to
48:28
Canal Street? Because you know, supposedly the story as he heard a bunch
48:34
of action going on and rushed over there to film it. But as we
48:38
showed in our presentation last year at Lancer, and it's a good seven blocks
48:45
from the statue all the way up to Canal Street. And that's just to
48:52
Canal Street. That's not up a couple of blocks to canw Street where that's
48:57
happened. So there's no way you could have heard anything that was going on.
49:00
He had to be he had to go there specifically for some reason.
49:06
And yeah, so that's why we think it's suspect. And then you know,
49:12
you come across the Diamond in a Haystack and find this other movie.
49:16
Guys that shows just almost the exact same sequence. It's just mind blowing.
49:22
It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, so kudos. Do you guys keep looking
49:28
in thrift stores and secondhand pawn shops or wherever you're going, and you know,
49:34
looking for old film from nineteen sixty three. You never know what you're
49:37
gonna find, you know. And yeah, you know the Bubushka lady's grandson
49:44
could have cleaned out our attic and donated it to Goodwill or something, and
49:46
you know who knows. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's very interesting
49:54
because in early sixty four you wouldn't really know that sequence. The movie didn't
50:00
come out for decades later, or the film the documents we showed you and
50:05
the FBI were internal, they weren't you can't find them on archives dot gov.
50:12
Were very feral, right, like that didn't exist back then, So
50:17
I don't know. And guys, check this out. This was just released
50:21
by the sixth Floor earlier this month. It's footage from NBC five Dallas.
50:30
So yeah, check out this clip, never before seen except for a couple
50:32
of weeks ago from the sixth Floor released it. You know, will you
50:43
describe for us just what happened last night? Well, the police from the
50:47
city came in to investigate a rifle shot that was fired into the house right
50:55
through the west window and hit the cell, and hit the wall across the
51:00
room and went through the wall over the desk at which I was sitting.
51:07
This happened at nine o'clock yet last night. Well, there's an enemy within
51:10
this country, and of course it's the same enemy that represents the position that
51:17
we should do away with the House and American Activities Committee, that we should
51:22
destroy our local police forces, and that we should do away with our military
51:28
forces. These are the you might say, the anti Americans as far as
51:34
our traditions, heritage, and constitution are concerned, and there are plenty of
51:37
them in this country. In spite of the federal government's position that there is
51:43
no threat from within, there is a threat from within. And this is
51:47
just for the indications that there is a threat to our individual rights and liberties.
51:55
What do you propose to do now? Are you going to go out
51:59
make out your text reforms at that same desk or doing work in your house
52:02
as usual? The House will continue as usual. There will be no change
52:08
except that we will double our efforts in every area. And this suddenly indicates
52:14
the necessity a right. It's been interesting to note that as a result of
52:19
our tour from coast to coast, there's been much response to what's been said
52:24
on this tour. The people are very much interested and quite upset across the
52:29
land. It's very indicative that they are not being properly represented in Washington,
52:34
d C. And deserve a better representation. That's crazy, right, A
52:47
lot of that footage from the inside of his house, and you know,
52:51
it's very very rare and if you do find it, it's blurr blurry,
52:58
old old footage. But that's straight from NBC, straight to them, and
53:04
it actually looks decent, way better than their version of the Martin film for
53:07
sure. Hm. I guess that's one good thing that the six Floor is
53:14
doing among letting Alex do it oral history there. That's awesome. Yeah,
53:22
are they charging you to do that, Alex? Do you get to do
53:24
it now? Oh? Okay, okay, just checking. That should be
53:37
great and it's going to be filmed, I'm guessing as well. Yeah,
53:43
for posterity, right, they're gonna film you, Alex record you frozen?
53:54
Oh they're frozen frozen. Well, hopefully they'll get back to us in the
54:00
second Joe. In the meantime, let's address some comments. We've got a
54:04
lot of people watching right now, and we have been we've been neglecting you
54:09
for our guests. We are we apologize. So let's go back here a
54:15
bit, Joe and see what all people have been talking about in here and
54:19
yeah yeah yeah uh psv Odyssey talking about mister Sutherland. He was awesome at
54:29
Animal House. Totally agree. I think we uh, let's see, Oh,
54:43
we have your favorite person here. Rob Clark's chubby went, huh,
54:50
thank you. Rob Clark's chubby went yes. My waning says yes, thank
54:54
you. Hi. South to the West, Hi moves Hi, Roger,
55:01
Hi, Paula, Hi bungled Hi, Trey, Jack Taylor, Joshua Tiny
55:09
Dancer of course. Uh. Colleen the Rocket Queen, thank you. Thank
55:15
you for the super and John as well, thank you for your super much
55:20
appreciated. Yes, I believe there was another one. Yes, Sally,
55:25
lovely Sally from across the pond dropping some pounds on his Joe. Thank you,
55:35
Sally, I think she says there for bandages. Joe. Okay,
55:39
oh I saw that. Thank you. I appreciate that. I probably will
55:45
need that once. Yes, but I'm trying to redeem myself. That's what's
55:51
important. Right. I actually saw my friend Vinnie in the chat earlier.
55:55
He's not a JFK guy, but loves to pop in. So Hi.
56:01
Yeah, see Timothy, Josh Trey, Uncle Dave's in the house, tiny
56:07
dancer, grunge truck. Let's see. Oh, we got a lot of
56:19
comments. I know, of course, I think it's awesome that they they
56:27
talk to each other while we're talking. I think that's awesome. Oh,
56:30
it's great. I mean, we love being here with the crew on a
56:35
Friday night talking JFK. Ain't nothing better than that. And you know,
56:44
Rob, it's kind of interesting because with the Martin film, like I was
56:46
saying, the odds of catching those both events would be short and narrowly high.
56:52
But this movie, it's almost like there were two scenes of the Walker's
56:58
House, Right, he didn't go once, he went twice. He didn't
57:00
go to the horse in town hall, in our city hall in New Orleans.
57:04
He went twice in this video. And it does seem the Martin film
57:09
that some of it was spliced together and are possibly screen recorded. You know,
57:16
Alex, I think didn't think so but it's just it is a possibility
57:21
for me, just because the odds and was this possibly a trip or a
57:30
quote mission to get other type of footage for a possible film. But of
57:37
course the film indicted Walker, right, the John Martin film didn't almost made
57:45
him more sust in a way, right with this guy called him and then
57:51
catching Oswalt in the fractice, so that that doesn't add up either. So
57:57
it's really like doesn't add up for me. I don't know what to think.
58:02
But again, Walker's not on the film. He's ominously not on film,
58:09
you know, yeah, why and we talked about that, right if
58:14
you went down there, if you're John T. Martin, you're a big
58:16
fan of Walker, you go to his house with a movie camera, you're
58:21
gonna want like a selfie at the time, right, Yeah, And maybe
58:23
he had a maybe he had a still camera too, and he had somebody
58:28
take a picture of them, you know, who knows. But it's just
58:32
odd that they didn't get him on film together like shaking his hand or you
58:36
know, kind of talking, you know whatever, with no soundtrack. You
58:43
know, yes, it's very interesting, but the whole the whole thing's just
58:49
weird. I mean this, this whole second film is just weird, from
58:53
how it would they found it in twenty eighteen to what it contains. You
58:58
know, the whole thing's just weird top to bottom. I can't agree more.
59:04
It's I really don't know what to think about it. And our working
59:07
theory when we were really studying this changed almost on the week. Oh wow,
59:16
it changed on an almost weekly basis here, and it took us a
59:22
lot of theories that we're wrong, and we finally got to what we thought
59:30
was the most plausible theory. I was emailing with Gary Schoener. He agreed
59:34
that was the most plausible theory. He of course has or claims to have
59:39
original copy of the Martin film from nineteen sixty eight when John Martin gave it
59:45
to him and Harold Wiseberg. And you know, the film didn't come out
59:52
for you know, thirty five plus years later, and why and what's the
1:00:01
point of it coming out in the mid two thousands. It really makes no
1:00:07
sense. And this film, this possible take two, is more interesting.
1:00:15
And you know, oh, this is where I want to address how do
1:00:19
you know it's nineteen sixty four in not nineteen sixty three. While Alex and
1:00:24
Kenneth transferred the film from whatever millimeter to and digitized it. And when they
1:00:35
did, on the end one of the last slides, it said March nineteen
1:00:42
sixty four as the time date. So that's how we know it was sixty
1:00:46
four. And that's what kind of confuses us even more because not many people
1:00:52
knew this route of and the connection of Walker. Right, this is as
1:00:58
the Warran Commission is kind of getting started, So how did how did someone
1:01:02
know to take this route? Is a coincidence? Is it not? Hey,
1:01:07
rough, welcome back. Yes, I was talking. I highlighted Tiny
1:01:14
Dancer's comment. How do you know it's sixty four not sixty three because it
1:01:17
was on the last slide of that eight or sixteen millimeter film it's said March
1:01:24
of sixty four. Yeah, that and all film is dated as to its
1:01:30
manufacturer date. Now that doesn't mean that the film was shot then, but
1:01:37
that's you know, when it was made, So I mean it could have
1:01:45
it could have technically been shot two three years later on any date of a
1:01:50
year. And the fact that there's a camera in Dealey Plaza pointed to the
1:01:55
sixth floor makes me think it's maybe kind of near an anniversary, but the
1:02:00
hurt sign is still on top, you know, of the building. So
1:02:05
it had to be in this early ish to mid sixties, I would say,
1:02:09
for sure, but still doesn't change the fact that nobody except the FBI
1:02:15
had seen the Martin film. And maybe some miniment maybe doubtful, doubtful maybe,
1:02:27
but this guy obviously is going to all the kind of Confederate statues the
1:02:32
southern Jefferson Davis. I mean, I went through all almost twenty minutes of
1:02:37
this film. It was statue at for statue, at for statue at for
1:02:42
statue, and he seemed to have some type of knowledge of some route and
1:02:49
sorry, I commented Sally's comment, it looks like the two films are from
1:02:53
one film, but cut up and order moved around. It does look very
1:02:59
clippy, especially when you go from Dallas to New Orleans. Very strange film.
1:03:06
I think I high, like did that before. Oh it's my boy
1:03:10
Vinnie, what's up? One of my best friends and love when he pops
1:03:15
in, so he says my levels are high, rob or or mine.
1:03:22
People said I was low last show, so I tried to up it a
1:03:25
little bit. Maybe I've uped to it too much. I don't know.
1:03:30
No, he's not talking about sound levels. He's talking about like levels of
1:03:35
excitement. So if I'm like really excited and like all over the place,
1:03:37
you'd be like, wow, your levels are high. Oh okay, one
1:03:40
he'd be like whoa, I'm like, what's up. I'll be like some
1:03:45
of your levels, you know. So that's the reference there. But thank
1:03:47
you for tuning in, Vinnie. And I think it's a right wing Greatest
1:03:52
Hits film, and that's interesting. The film really indicts the are right.
1:04:00
And John T. Martin was a minute man. He was, like he
1:04:05
said in his creating bio, a very conservative Republican. So what benefit does
1:04:11
it have to give it to the FBI? In December sixty three waiting arrow
1:04:15
down, Uncle Dave. Now, our time frame is nineteen seventy nine,
1:04:21
Joe. But no, I think with the footage, the style of vehicles
1:04:30
going on here that we see, you know, on film, it's definitely
1:04:34
from the sixties, would be my guess. It's just, man, it's
1:04:42
one of those odd fines that you just dream about finding in some thrift store,
1:04:46
the flea market in Dallas, you know, these old home movies.
1:04:54
But yeah, and talking to Kenneth. He's like, that's what he looks
1:04:57
for. He looks for old home movies, especially ones that are Mark Dallas
1:05:02
sixty three or Dalley Plaza like this one was. So hopefully they find more
1:05:12
more of this stuff. Like I say, do you never know what you're
1:05:15
gonna find in these places? You never know, You're never gonna know what's
1:05:17
on this film either. And I wanted to show them something before they left.
1:05:31
Let me see if I can retrieve it, Joe, I have to.
1:05:38
I believe I emailed it to meself. Sure, And yeah, the
1:05:44
last slide on that long Martin film that we played did have a daycoda of
1:05:49
March sixty four on one of the slides. I believe the last one is
1:05:55
what Alex said, Yeah, we are pretty sure it's from It's from nine
1:05:59
and everything and winds up. It's just the sequence is weird. It's really
1:06:04
weird. And how would you know that at that time if you weren't friends
1:06:08
with Walker. So yeah, I saw this next photo that I'm gonna show
1:06:12
you guys in a Facebook group and it was presented as though it was an
1:06:17
obscure, never before seen picture of Lee, Harvey Oswald and Marina. Now
1:06:26
I can tell you it's not okay, but it is damn interesting, at
1:06:32
least on the Lee Oswald's side of things. Joe, So take a look
1:06:38
at this. Oh wow, I'm definitely not Marina. Okay, definitely not
1:06:51
And I'd say it's probably not Lee either. Yeah, it's probably not Lee,
1:06:58
but damn if that guy don't look like him. You know, it's
1:07:01
like a more Jewish version of Lee Oswald. Yeah, you know where did
1:07:10
you find those things? Some Facebook group? Interesting? Yeah, I don't
1:07:17
think. I don't know if i'd say it's him, but it's very interesting.
1:07:20
And I believe they said they found it some like secondhand store or something
1:07:26
like that, you know, if thromb through an old you know, photo
1:07:31
book, you know, their family or something. And they literally thought it
1:07:38
was Lee Oswald and Marina. But you know, you never know this,
1:07:43
You never know what you can find. You know, it's just crazy,
1:07:45
you know this this uh you know, at a glance, you know he's
1:07:54
got like the brock Purty thing going on where he slightly resembles Lee Oswald.
1:07:58
You know, crazy stuff, crazy stuff. Well, I guess their internet
1:08:04
shipped out. I was hoping they would come back. And h and join
1:08:09
us so we could properly thank him for being on the show. But if
1:08:13
they're if you're watching us now, Kenneth Alex, thank you guys for coming
1:08:17
on the show. We really appreciate it. And you know, they were
1:08:21
instrumental in trying to help us find as close to the original Martin film as
1:08:28
we could get last year when we were when we were looking for it,
1:08:31
they were really trying to help us out, you know, digging through Robert
1:08:36
Groden's many storage units and trying to find his copy, and they never could
1:08:44
and it sucks, but it is what it is. Hopefully one day they'll
1:08:49
find it, and you know, we'll see if it's better quality or if
1:08:54
there's more on it, because if Groden has a copy of it, Joe,
1:08:58
it's he's saying he got his from Wisburg, so he probably would have
1:09:00
got it in the early seventies and it would have been, you know,
1:09:05
a Wiseburg copy from nineteen sixty eight, one of the earliest copies straight from
1:09:11
JT. So hopefully someday they'll find it. Yeah, and Shaner are still
1:09:19
looking at his attic for his nineteen sixty eight copies, so you wish him
1:09:25
walk on that as well. But yeah, it's it's very interesting with the
1:09:30
HCA. I believe some of the time the timestamp on the film was like
1:09:33
nineteen seventy seven from the current copy or one of the current copies. I
1:09:40
skip that slide, but we had discussed earlier on previous in our previous John
1:09:45
T. Marsh, Yeah, I know Alex will be looking for help and
1:09:49
there in Dallas, he's going to try to recreate all the various camera and
1:09:54
film locations. He's going to be reshooting them using the original cameras and original
1:10:00
film and original video cameras as well. It's still camera shots as best as
1:10:10
he can, you know, like recreating the Altins photo using the camera that
1:10:15
Alcins did, recreating the Zuppruiter film with the same camera as a pruder used,
1:10:19
you know, and all these different angles and all this different stuff.
1:10:25
So it's a very cool project, you know. And then you know,
1:10:29
putting them all together to see you know, I think that would be crazy
1:10:33
cool, you know, definitely a good uh you know, school project for
1:10:41
him too. You know, that would definitely earn him some some cred I
1:10:44
would think at school as well. But it's definitely an interesting project. And
1:10:53
I know, I know our buddy Mike's volunteered to be Jerry bell Knapp the
1:10:58
Seizure guy already and Apron Man as well. And uh, you know who
1:11:02
knows he's very versatile Mike is. He can, he can, he can
1:11:05
play just about anybody. So yeah, and he even wants to write us
1:11:13
a book right now on different Dallas sites. Slightly got incorrect on Washington Martin
1:11:19
film. Okay, we like it, hey, uh and let's see.
1:11:31
Uh, yeah, it does look more like Robert than it does h Lee.
1:11:45
I will say that, Yeah, it's just a weird you know,
1:11:48
I know it's probably neither one of them, you know, and god who's
1:11:51
from. It's just one of those things that people back then looked a lot
1:11:57
more similar than people do now. You know, there wasn't much variety back
1:12:01
then. I don't think, you know, people dressed a certain way,
1:12:05
they lived a certain way. You know, there weren't as many different types
1:12:12
or dirty. You know, if you had a beard like me out probably
1:12:15
they probably would have thought it was a homeless whino back in nineteen sixty three.
1:12:18
And you know, Joe, clean shaven, Joe and his nice clothes
1:12:24
over there, you know as well to do he probably would have wore freaking
1:12:27
Fedora back in the day, and like Jack Ruby, and you know I
1:12:32
could I could just see it now, that is funny. I wish,
1:12:39
I mean, I wish I could pull that off. I don't know if
1:12:41
I cut it just wasn't a big variety of haircuts and glasses looked horrible or
1:12:45
they all looked horrible and the same. And you know, yeah, like
1:12:51
the butch haircut that John T. Martin had put it in his high school
1:12:55
bio. He said, butch haircut, Yeah, the butcher Yeah. But
1:13:02
yeah. And also Kenneth Rob was super nice because when I went to Lancer
1:13:06
last year in November twenty three, I knew no one. Thankfully, Doug
1:13:15
texted me and kind of introduced me to a bunch of people. But Kenneth
1:13:19
was extremely helpful in helping facilitate our Lancer conversation. Alex was helpful, and
1:13:27
he was working some of the computer slides and another eight audio visual type of
1:13:34
thing. And you know, hopefully one of us, or maybe both of
1:13:40
us, if we can convince the trouble b might be there. Maybe,
1:13:45
you know, I think it's great that the zetakers are kind of taking over
1:13:48
to the Answer Conference things from Devon Conway. And you know, they're a
1:13:54
wonderful, very nice, very professional young couple who are very interested in doing
1:14:02
things the right way and presenting things and not just anything. At the Lancer
1:14:12
Conference, I think they're they're keeping the tradition tradition there of being a respected
1:14:17
conference very much in the forefront and not just having a speaker just to have
1:14:25
a speaker, you know. So kudos to them for the great job they
1:14:29
did last year. I believe that was the first time that they were I
1:14:32
know, I know they've been involved behind the scenes in the in the in
1:14:35
the past, but this was more of their first foray into actually running things
1:14:45
and they did a great job. And I think they're going to continue to
1:14:46
do a good job in the future. And you know, I think the
1:14:49
Lancer Conference is in good hands. And like I said, you know,
1:14:53
if you think about buying tickets, look support your favorite show. Go down
1:15:00
the description to this video and find the link to Assassination Conference dot com and
1:15:06
use our code Gunman ten. It'll save you ten percent off any ticket package,
1:15:10
whether you buy in person tickets, online tickets, whether you want to
1:15:15
buy a video after the fact ticket or you want to buy a dinner ticket,
1:15:20
it all helps out the show and gets you a ten percent discount on
1:15:25
the ticket prices. So definitely check that out. Joe, you got anything
1:15:30
else, my friend? No, just you know, we didn't get the
1:15:34
chance. But thank you to Alex and Kenneth. I just having met the
1:15:41
bullet at Lancer. Great people, and I looking forward to hopefully seeing them
1:15:45
again this year and repping TLG and a topic that you'll maybe find out later.
1:15:55
Oh, hold on, hold on, Joe, hold on, because
1:16:01
I almost forgot. I almost forgot. So we've been emailing back and forth
1:16:13
with a lovely listener, and in talking about the John T. Martin film
1:16:20
and what they were doing about things and how that he was going about recording
1:16:27
certain events and certain people brought up the fact that this may be have been
1:16:31
like an early version of a red cell exercise. Now you might be saying,
1:16:41
okay, well, what is a red cell exercise? Well, it's
1:16:45
a government term for national security coordination teams in SCT. Now this wasn't officially
1:16:51
a thing in our government until nineteen eighty six, okay, And it was
1:16:59
developed by a form I'm sorry. In nineteen eighty four. It was developed
1:17:02
by a former Richard, former Seal Team six member Richard Marsenko, okay,
1:17:10
and came up with the idea for Red Cell war games basically where they demonstrated
1:17:21
the vulnerabilities of the military bases and would regularly use such things as false ideas.
1:17:29
They would break in defenses, barricaded buildings, take hostages and kidnap highranking
1:17:32
personnel, plant bombs near Air Force one, snuck into submarine bases and took
1:17:40
them over. Their operations were recorded and subsequently displayed the base personnel to expose
1:17:45
vulnerabilities that they should patch. Okay. So these are basically highly advanced real
1:17:53
world war games done by our government, okay, to expose vulnerable abilities at
1:18:00
various government facilities, nuclear bases, things like this. So if this,
1:18:05
if this Red Celle team could get in to a nuclear base, you know,
1:18:14
and kidnap high ranking personnel, and that's probably something that they should fix
1:18:20
and make sure that this can't happen for real, you know. So the
1:18:28
supposition was made that this John T observation John T. Martin observation of catching
1:18:35
Oswald on film prior to the assassination was some kind of a Red cell Ish
1:18:45
military exercise for whatever reason, infiltration, which is very interesting to think about.
1:18:53
Like I said, it probably wasn't called that back then because it didn't
1:18:56
exist yet. But we know, we know the CIA has always done this
1:19:01
kind of thing in the military. I'm sure has always done this kind of
1:19:06
thing, uh, you know, to obviously try to minimize any security risks
1:19:15
things like that. So it's it's very interesting, you know. And there's
1:19:20
a podcast out there and I think it's called The Sean Ryan Show, and
1:19:26
he's a former CIA operative, former special forces guy, right, and he
1:19:34
was actually doing Red cell activities on the morning of nine to eleven, and
1:19:38
they didn't know whether they things were real or fake or what was going on.
1:19:44
But you know, he was talking about one of their missions. One
1:19:45
of these Red celle missions was to get close enough to a gen this general,
1:19:51
and they had to get a picture of him within a certain distance and
1:19:56
if they did that, it was equal to a gunshot kills. And if
1:20:00
they could do that, then obviously security is not what it should be,
1:20:05
right, And you know, he tells these crazy stories about you know what
1:20:11
all they were doing, how you wouldn't even see your team members for like
1:20:15
four months at a time. And he told her like belly crawling, you
1:20:21
know, over three days just to get close enough to this base in civilian
1:20:30
clothes. And I think he said he bought some camo from Walmart and found
1:20:36
an opening in the fence, you know, to get through. And then
1:20:43
barely before the time ran out on this Red Ceale game, he was able
1:20:46
to get in there and get a picture of this general leaving the base,
1:20:53
you know, walking from this building to a vehicle. You know, if
1:20:58
he would have missed him and that would have been it. But he got
1:21:01
him. And so these Red Cell games are crazy, you know what they
1:21:06
what they're doing. And they actually back in the day when they said they
1:21:12
actually they were kidnapping people off the base. The first one, the first
1:21:16
ever Red Cale team, they got in trouble because they actually kidnapped somebody,
1:21:25
brought him back to a hotel and tortured him for three days, including almost
1:21:31
drowning them in the toilet multiple times in the bathtub, trying to get him
1:21:36
to come off of top secret information about the base. Well, it turns
1:21:41
out the guy wasn't a government employee. He was a contractor and he ended
1:21:44
up suing the government because of what the Red Cale Team did to him.
1:21:51
But the Red Sale Team was allowed to continue to exist. And yeah,
1:22:00
even novelist Brad Meltzer, who's wrote a lot of good books, he's had
1:22:04
a couple of TV shows out there, he writes plots as part of this
1:22:11
program. So they use his mind right to write various scenarios about how things
1:22:20
could be pulled off. He doesn't even have to actually go out and physically
1:22:24
do him like a Red Celle team. He can do him in his head
1:22:27
and then write them on paper and say this is possible. How do we
1:22:31
stop it? Right? Type of thing? So pretty crazy, and you
1:22:39
know who knows very possible. I think we referred to John T. Martin
1:22:44
as a ghost of some sort, and you know they were FBI was commede
1:22:50
hunting. You know a lot of people think Oswalt was faking to be a
1:22:57
communist to draw other communists. So much of this stuff back then might not
1:23:01
have been called red Games like Rob had described. But I mean, this
1:23:08
guy is not on the radar, and we have tried hard and we continue
1:23:15
to. Yes, he's still very much on the radar. We still very
1:23:18
much have boots on the ground in Minnesota willing to help us out, so
1:23:26
you know we're still we're still looking for sure. Well, thank you,
1:23:30
China Dnswer. Yes, yeah, James Smith as Sean Ryan is my second
1:23:38
favorite podcast. I love it too. I mean it's a it's a great
1:23:43
show. Not as good as this one, of course, no, surely,
1:23:48
I just it PNEs this one probably, uh, but you know they
1:23:57
have millions and millions and millions of followers, so it means it means of
1:24:00
dollars to do great production, but to hear real life stories about real life
1:24:06
CIA operators and Special Forces guys. That's that's the show, The Sean Ryan
1:24:13
Show. So definitely check it out, highly recommend it, very cool.
1:24:19
Anything else, Joe, I just a highlight of the common from Bungled he
1:24:25
said, sas did it at Buckingham Palace all the time. So yeah,
1:24:28
that's the same concept, right, Yep. It's no different than hiring a
1:24:33
hacker to try to find vulnerabilities in your computer system of a giant corporation,
1:24:42
you know, to keep out you hire a hacker to keep out the hacker.
1:24:45
So you know, you hire a badass team to keep out other badass
1:24:49
teams. They could, they could come get you. Very true. Way
1:25:02
too many coincidences, bungles. I agree, and that's why it's a paradox.
1:25:13
I'm confused here, Yeah, Trey, the answer is Ghostbusters, of
1:25:17
course, of course, let me get them on the line. Yes,
1:25:31
this is Ghostbusters. Yes, we've got a ghost we need you to find.
1:25:39
Oh you don't do that. You only bust them once they've been found.
1:25:45
Okay, So I gotta find them first, then you can bust them.
1:25:48
Okay, all right, I got you, all right, thank you,
1:25:55
all right, bye, love you too. Bye. No hope,
1:26:04
no hope. We're gonna have to do it ourselves. If you want to
1:26:09
think of such a sweet lady that answers the phone there though knowing voice,
1:26:14
but very sweet. Yeah, thank you Jack. Listen to the show so
1:26:21
long. I remember down loading it onto my iPod only since day one.
1:26:28
Wow wow, And Tiny Dancer, things change, but they don't change much.
1:26:39
And I think she was referring to the red cells and stuff like that.
1:26:42
But that was really cool, Rob. Thank you for that tidbit,
1:26:45
and thank you Tiny Dancer for sending us an email. The Long Upment Podcast
1:26:50
at gmail dot com. Yeah, I was think of Joe, should we
1:26:55
start taking listener emails on this show like we do on Quick Hits you know
1:27:01
what, and having an email segment you know what? I I don't know
1:27:06
because we almost have like a live email segment with a chat right liked and
1:27:15
Quick Hits is one, you know, probably my favorite podcast. This one
1:27:21
is discluded for that purpose. But it is Quick Hits weekend. Is it
1:27:28
not wrong? Uh? It is not. Oh. I was informed with
1:27:33
some last minute changes. It has been moved to next weekend due to elevator
1:27:42
problems. Okay, yes, that happens, but uh, problems out of
1:27:49
my controls, sir, That's okay, and Douglas not happy about it,
1:27:54
but we were reconvening Quick Hits next week. Yeah for sure. That sounds
1:28:02
good. Well, I think we're about finished up here. Thank you again
1:28:09
to Kenneth and Alex Harris. We yes, I got a message from them.
1:28:14
Joe. Uh, their their phone died, Alex lost his hotspot or
1:28:23
something something happened. Okay, and uh he is after us and Mike messaged
1:28:31
me. He said Turtle Creek is in Uptown, which is slightly north of
1:28:33
downtown, kind of on the border. Getting into the richer parts of Dallas
1:28:38
like Highland Park and University Park, multi million dollar homes in University Park is
1:28:43
home to Southern Methodist University, So yeah, it's uh the better part of
1:28:51
town, let's say, Turtle Creek Boulevard and one last thing, Rob When
1:28:59
I landed and Alice in November, I asked by Uber or somewhat taxi driver,
1:29:06
I was like, what's up with oak Cliff? Are we passing?
1:29:10
Not? Can we go? Because first time in Dallas I have been there,
1:29:13
And he's like, you don't want to go to oak Cliff? Yeah,
1:29:17
I've heard oak Cliff is bad, but like when I went there in
1:29:20
twenty nineteen, it was fine. It was of course I was in daylight
1:29:26
right at night. It might be a different story. I don't know.
1:29:30
But I'm just walking around by myself, you know, stupid white guy hanging
1:29:35
around. Tint and Patton like, hey, yeah, well you're a lucky
1:29:43
Markham boys run after you there. So that's right away from Daryl Garner too,
1:29:49
whoo or his kin. They probably wouldn't his kin Daryl's low long lost
1:30:00
sun. Yes, let's see. Thank you, Bungled, and thank you
1:30:10
to the chat fifty people in here at once, you know, the same
1:30:15
kind of consistent. We love you, guys, We love hanging out with
1:30:19
you on Friday night talking JFKA, Thank you, Alex and Channath mister triple
1:30:26
Bet. Yes, thank you again, folks. Again. The link for
1:30:32
the Lancer conference this year is in the description to this show. Just click
1:30:38
the little more button and all that crap will pop down. You have links
1:30:42
to our locals community, links to the merch store to go get yourself some
1:30:45
sweet t shirts and a hat like this, right, yeah right, And
1:30:51
also to go get yourself some delicious, scrumptious Silk City hot sauce. Folks,
1:31:02
what you need to do treat your taste bugs, light them up,
1:31:08
breathe some fire, and thank me for it later. So, guys,
1:31:16
for Joe Borelli, Alex Harris, and Kenneth Zitnaker, this has been episode
1:31:23
two ninety five where almost the three hundred holy shit. Uh yeah, this
1:31:30
has been episode two ninety five, and we thank you very much for hanging
1:31:33
out with us and look forward to doing it again to you and with you
1:31:40
on next week. Yes. So po pah pah pah. Peace. Have
1:31:59
a good week. Ship increase. Yes, have a great weekend. Stay
1:32:03
out of the heat, Drink plenty of water, stay hydrated, don't shrivel
1:32:09
up like Jean de Mornshield