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Kamala’s Closing Argument (feat. AOC) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I'm Tim Miller. That's how we're doing it?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: You know who you are, Tim.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: That's how we're doing it? Yeah.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Oh!
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: That's how we're doing it.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right. Here we go. Let's start it over.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Here we go. Oh, you can use that.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whatever. Until you cleared your throat like an ancient. On
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: today's show, Kamala Harris makes her final argument to undecided
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: voters in a big speech on the Ellipse. Donald Trump
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: tries to clean up the mess from that terrible joke
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: about Puerto Rico, and President Biden... uh, makes Trump's job
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit easier with, uh, quite a gaffe. And
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: here in the homestretch, Trump and his surrogates are helpfully
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: reminding voters of the stakes being quite open about their
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: plans to dismantle Obamacare, put RFK Jr. in charge of
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: vaccines and prescription drugs, and perhaps even crash the economy
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: if they win. Then I talked to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: about how to persuade disaffected progressives. Uh, someone, Tim is, uh,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Not someone who's going to help us reach at all.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: You're just not for them.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I've got a pitch for Disaffected Progressives.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's hear it.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Get your fucking ass into the game.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: That's why we don't send you.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Get your fucking ass into the game. What are you
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: doing right now, Disaffected Progressives? Do you realize how crazy
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: this person is on the other side? Do you know
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: what they're going to do to you? Do you want
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: the military showing up at your Gaza protest? Do you?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: All right, because it's not going to be John Kelly.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: John Kelly was no cup of tea either, by the way.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: John Kelly put... green card holders in airport cells the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: first time around. We're going to have somebody worse than
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: him showing up to your protest in 2025 with guns
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: and jackboots. Is that what you want? Fucking vote for
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So I feel like you've heard of good cop, bad cop.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I would call that bad cop ACAP. You know what
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I mean? That's what we're getting with you. Look, I
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: hear you. I hear you. I have the same energy.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: But we're trying to coax... Look, I think that's... Let's
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: get that out there, but we also have to do
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: some coaxing.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fine. You guys are softer. You can coax.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: You can use soft coaxing. It might just be helpful
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to hear from somebody that's like, that Tim Miller, he
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: used to be a Republican. I find a lot of
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: his views repulsive and extreme. And he's telling me that
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: these people that are coming in, their views are so
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: repulsive and extreme to him that it is freaking him
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: out and that he's mentorating his sheets. And so maybe
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: that should be a wake-up call to me that these
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: people over there... are as bad as I could possibly
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: imagine because he knows them personally and he's testifying that
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: they're bad. And I think he's kind of bad. Is
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: that not, you don't think that's compelling at all to
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: young progressives?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I do. I don't think they've heard of you.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. Okay. Well, we could vouch, you
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: could vouch for them that I'm kind of bad. Anyway,
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Whatever it takes to vouch for the,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: to vouch. I'm doing my best. I'll go on TikTok.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I'll like, whatever.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: What do we do?
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I'll get on Twitch. What are we doing? I went
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: to a Magdalena Bay show. I went to the DARE.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I saw the DARE. There were Gen Z kids there.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I think they looked like they were voting for Kamala Harris.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I didn't play with them, though.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Okay. Joining me to discuss all this, you already know.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Good start to the podcast.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great start to the pod. Our favorite rhino, host
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of the Bulwark podcast, co-host on Speech Center. It's Tim Miller.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: It's good to see you, Tim.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: It's good to see you. I've got a lot of
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: energy today to get out.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Look, I feel like this is our final chance talking
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: on Pod Save America before the election. I think all
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: of our nerves are frayed. We are hopeful but broken
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: here in the final days. And that's just the energy
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: we're going to be bringing to it. On Tuesday evening,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: just outside the White House, Kamala Harris delivered her closing
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: argument speech. The campaign said there were 75,000 people in attendance,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: though it's impossible to really know. At least one person
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: was a protester who annoyed everybody during the first few
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: minutes of the speech with a siren, but then they
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: wrestled Joe Biden to the ground and everything went on
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: without a hitch. This was an argument to voters who
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: are still making up their minds. Let's take a listen.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: In less than 90 days, either Donald Trump or I
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: will be in the Oval Office. And on day one,
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: if elected... On day one, if elected, Donald Trump would
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: walk into that office with an enemies list. When elected,
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: I will walk in with a to-do list. I have
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: been honored to serve as Joe Biden's vice president. But
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: I will bring my own experiences and ideas to the
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: Oval Office. My presidency will be different because the challenges.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: We face are different.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: Now our biggest challenge is to lower costs, costs that
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: were rising even before the pandemic and that are still
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: too high. I pledge to seek common ground and common
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: sense solutions to make your life better. Unlike Donald Trump,
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: I don't believe people who disagree with me are the enemy.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: He wants to put them in jail. I'll give them
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: a seat at the table. So, America, let us reach
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: for that future. Let us fight for this beautiful country
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: we love. And in seven days, we have the power,
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: each of you has the power to turn the page
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: and start writing the next chapter in the most extraordinary
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: story ever told. I thank you all. God bless you.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: And may God bless the United.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: States of America. Thank you. Look at Tim's heart sing.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Look at that. Look, look at that.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Isn't America great?
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: The mystic chords.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Isn't America wonderful?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: The mystic chords stirring between us. Oh, man.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Could use a little John Winthrop. But other than that,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: really good.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: What were your general thoughts, general reactions?
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Thank God that Kamala Harris is the Democratic nominee for
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: President of the United States is my main thought. I'm just,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I couldn't be more overjoyed to support her. And I
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: think that it's the clearest choice I've ever encountered in
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: any vote for any office on any level. I thought
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: she was really great. I thought the visuals were great.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: I thought the speech was very stirring in the beginning
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and at the end. I think there was a big
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: section in the middle. It was kind of a, focus
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: group potpourri that I assume that they're cutting into 15
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and 30 second ads to play to the people in
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: the swing states. And so that's, that's fine. It's like
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: a piece of art. It wasn't great. You know, like
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: I understand why they're doing that. And I thought it
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: was smart to do it. There were some people that were,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: you know, some democratic strategist types are like, I don't know,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: we shouldn't talk about fascism. And I don't know if
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: this is right. We should talk about, you know, take
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: home pay. And it's like, she showed that that's a
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: false choice. I think it was very good and important
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to stand there on the ellipse and provide the contrast
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: with Donald Trump's worst day and to talk about the
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: stakes while also talking about economic issues. And if anything,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I thought that her olive branch to the right, to
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Nikki Haley voters, to even MAGA voters was even a
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: little longer than I would have given. She was reaching
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: right out to my people and even a little further.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know that any MAGA people need
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: a seat at the table, actually. We could put them
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: on the floor. We can give them a seat on
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: the floor for me, but good for her for doing that,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: and I think that all in all, it was smart tactically,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: and I think the message was good.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about this a bit on Ponce America
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: that came out Tuesday, and basically, what does it mean
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to go to the Ellipse, and does that put the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: balance too far on the side of Trump is a fascist.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Trump is a menace versus the economic argument. But I
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: do think this speech could have been one that was
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: more focused on the insurrection and Trump's threat to democracy.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: But that was really more, I think, of a, I
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: don't know, that got butts in seats. But ultimately, it
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: was much more of a broader stump.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I didn't get to listen
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: to your Pouncing America on Tuesday because I was spending
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: the afternoon with Steve Bannon at his post-prison press conference
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: in New York City. And so... I prioritized my FaceTime
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: with him over that, but I'm sure you had the
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: right takes on Tuesday.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I will come back to that. I will come back
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: to that. You know, as you say that too, being
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: glad that Kamala Harris is the nominee, you know, your
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: colleague at the Bulwark, JVL, wrote a piece kind of
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: summing up where we're at, which I wanted to echo
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: and get your thoughts on because the point he makes,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: which is a point I think we've made, is it
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: is worth saying as we head into this election that
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: It is close. We could wake up and have lost
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the election, but it won't be because Kamala Harris fucked up.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: It won't be because she didn't do what we asked
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: her to do. She is running an extraordinary campaign. And
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: if the test for us in this election was that
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris had to run an absolutely perfect campaign without exception,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: and Donald Trump is... free to run a blundering, rambling, baffling,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: a-strategic operation. and still pull it out. And that blame
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: then gets laid at the feet of Democrats. I think
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that tells us that something deeper and darker about this election.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: And I do think it's worth saying that because this speech,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I felt the same as you did watching this speech.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: This was an excellent speech. She is an excellent candidate.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: And we've spent You know, so many months because of
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the stakes are so high, kind of worrying over every
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: decision and every move, lamenting when there were problems and
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: all the rest. But here we are at the end.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: And I do really think it is no longer Kamala
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Harris's problem. It's our problem.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: A lot there. Number one, JBL's newsletter, the Bullwicks Triad
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: newsletter is amazing. He's always great. And so I highly
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: recommend it. And he was right on this one. I
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: think that probably... It says something deeper and darker about
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: America that we even have to bite our fingernails about
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: next Tuesday. So I don't know if that's a topic
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: for this podcast or for, you know, I don't know,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: you and me to get in our feelings over Christmas break.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: But so, yeah, I mean, I think that this is correct.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: She's run tactically. Her performance in every big set piece
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: moment has been off the charts. I think the strategic...
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: choices of the campaign have been really good. You could
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: tactically nitpick. You know, I think in retrospect, I probably
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: would have called his bluff on the Fox debate. I
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: would have rather debated Donald Trump on Fox and debated
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Brett Baier. There would have been more eyes. And she
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: obviously would have dominated him since she dominated him the
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: first time. And since he is a sundowning 78-year-old freak.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: So that's like probably the only tactical mistake. And it's
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: only a tactical mistake for me just in that like,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: there was this long period of after that big moment
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: in the debate that allowed all of the gnashing of
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: teeth and the wailing and the Donald Trump sideshow to
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: kind of distract for something that was, I think, pretty
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: clear in the hour after that debate, which was how
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: much stronger of a candidate she is and how much
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: stronger of a potential president she is. That's my only nitpick.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And I'd listen to the other side of that argument.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's that clear cut. I think she's
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: done a great job. And unfortunately... Some of this is
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: out of our hands. Some of this isn't about the
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: darkness of America. Some of this is just about that
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: inflation is annoying and incumbents have done horribly all around
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the world. And some of this is about the darkness
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: of America that we're even here. So that's my summary.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, and I think those things are hard to
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: find where one ends and the other begins because, yes,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: there are challenges to incumbents all around the world, but
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: even on Trump's core core issue, which would be one
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: of two core issues would be inflation and immigration. On inflation,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: his case is fundamentally fraudulent and he is promising higher costs.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: You know, she gave on that score her tightest response
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: to lingering questions about how she is different from Joe Biden.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: How do you think, what did you think of her
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: answer on that score?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I thought it was good. I thought it was better.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I guess I could always use more. um, distance from him. Um,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: and I don't, I don't put this in the bucket
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: of something that has been a problem with the campaign. Um,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know how much, uh, time we want to
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: devote to this, but I think part of that has been,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: there's been pressure from the Biden white house to not
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: distance more and that, and that Biden's, there've been sensitivities
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: around the president, um, there, which I think is very silly. Um, but, uh,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: so I guess if you're going to give a second thing,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: in addition to that Fox debate that you could look
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: at and say, we could have gotten a little more
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: distance from Biden. That's probably something that I would look
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: at as another thing the campaign could have done a
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: little bit better. But I think a lot of it
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: was out of their hands. And I thought what she
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: said last night was good. I mean, I think that
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: she fundamentally in her person is different from Biden. And
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I just think that leaning into that as much as possible,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and like you can throw some fig leaf issues out there,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: like I'm going to build 3 million more homes and
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: we're going to do this specific thing on home health
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: for seniors. home care for seniors. But, you know, as
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: much leaning into her background and her story and her
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: perspective being so different and the generational change, I think
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: that that's a better way to go.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even if you put aside sort of the personal politics,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: like I've always been of two minds on this because
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: on the one hand, I find this answer, oh, you know,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Just the kind of I am a different person and
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: therefore I am different than Joe Biden to be. It
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: is like a rhetorical and like kind of surface response.
• 14:49
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Like I'll be different because I bring my different experiences
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: to bear. Now, that's, of course, true. Then, on the
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: other hand, I think, well, hold on a second. Am
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I too much of a kind of insane political person
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to realize that? Wait a second. Wait a second. What
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: do people really want? They're not saying they want someone
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: who comes to the table with a different set of goals.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: They just want better outcomes, right? When people say they
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: want someone different than Joe Biden, they're not saying they
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: have a fundamental problem with what Joe Biden promised to do.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: They don't have a problem with the democratic agenda. They
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: have a problem with outcomes. And so when you say,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: here are the new things I will do that will
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: make me different than Joe Biden, just because as people
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: that are super politically invested and engaged, we understand that
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden- represents the center-left consensus of the Democratic Party.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris will represent that consensus and will in many
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: ways be a continuation. Make it less true that she
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: is representing the differences people are hoping to see.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I think that's right. In some ways, it's like a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: trick question because it's like what people really want to
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: hear is I would have waved a magic wand and
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: inflation wouldn't have been as bad as it was.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: What people really want is not like how are you
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: going to be different, in the next four years, but
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: it's like, what would you have done differently? And like,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: that's like an answer that's kind of, that's a question
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: that is kind of unanswerable for her really. And unless
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: you want to get into like, well, I was advising
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: in the room that this and that, right. And, and,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: and that's like a bag of worms that probably is unhelpful.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: So I think that the forward looking and the identity
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: looking elements of the answer is the best you can
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: do in, in, in a sticky situation.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Trump spent Tuesday trying to limit the damage from,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: what a country, from comedian Tony Hinchcliffe's comment about Puerto
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Rico being a floating island of garbage. Trump did a
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: pair of events in Pennsylvania. He spun variations of the
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: claim that no one has done more for Puerto Rico
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: than he has. Then he went on Hannity, tried to
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: diss himself from Hinchcliffe and defend the photo op when
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: he threw paper towels. Let's roll a clip.
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: I was told and made aware that you had no
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: idea about this comedian. who made comments.
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: I still have.
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: I have no idea who he is. Somebody said there
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: was a comedian that joked about Puerto Rico or something.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: And I have no idea who it was. Never saw him.
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: Never heard of him. And don't want to hear of him.
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: But I have no idea. They put a comedian in,
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: which everybody does. You throw comedians in.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: You don't.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: Vet them and go crazy. It's nobody's fault. Every time
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: I go outside, I see somebody from Puerto Rico. They
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: give me a hug and a kiss. I was there
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: handing out food. I got in trouble for that, too,
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: because we were having fun. We had a lot of
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: people and I was throwing paper towels to the back.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Never heard of Tony Hinchcliffe. Similar way he's never heard
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: of a lot of people who have said terrible things
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: in or around him.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Alyssa Farah was one. The other day I was
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: watching his Rogan interview. He's like, well, who is that
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: person who's my communications director? What was her name? I've
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: never heard of her. You know, he's abhorrent and repellent
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: in every possible way. I know that this game is
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: so tired at this point, but like, Imagine if Kamala
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Harris was giving that answer on CNN.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: People have comedians all the time. And who knows? We
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: don't vet people. We just kind of let people talk
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: at our events. And I don't really care one way
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: or the other. The whole thing is pretty silly. And
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the reason why it's the most silly, though, is that
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: the joke that– tony what's what's his what's his comedian
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: name hinge clip f tony screw tony tony the kill
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: tony yeah the kill tony uh told the joke is
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: literally the same thing that donald trump said said seriously
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: several times on the stump recently about how america is
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: a garbage can it's just inverting the same point like
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: donald trump has said multiple times america is a garbage
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: can and we are garbage can for the world and
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: people are sending their immigrants and they're garbage And Tony
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Hinchcliffe just said that Puerto Rico is a floating island
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: of garbage. The same thing. The only reason people have
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: any outrage about it, any different than what Donald Trump
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: had said is because it's specifically targeted a group of people.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: It's very important in Pennsylvania, but like Donald Trump says
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: racist shit about how, uh, immigrants, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, et cetera,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: are garbage all the time. And so there is no
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: difference between him and the comedian. So like that whole
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: kind of discussion is, is moot.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: So, uh, uh, Democrats were making hay of this. This
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: comment happened to coincide with Kamala Harris laying out her
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: plan for Puerto Rico. We got another post from Bad Bunny.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: J-Lo announced an event with Kamala Harris in Nevada. And
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: then last night, President Biden joined a press call about
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: it hosted by Voto Latino, in which he said this.
• 19:28
  Speaker 6: And just the other day, a speaker at his rally
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: called Puerto Rico a floating island of garbage. Well, let
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: me tell you something. I don't know the Puerto Rican
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: that I know or Puerto Rico where I'm in my
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: home state of Delaware. They're good, decent, honorable people. The
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters.
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: his demonization is unconscionable.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: So Joe Biden has entered the chat he's and he's
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: from the government he's here to help.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: Ronnie.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: That's a Ronald Reagan reference for Tim. So, all right.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: So this comes right after Kamala's great speech, a speech
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: in which she pre-butted Joe Biden. If I talked about
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: how much she would reach out to Republicans, she spoke
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: on the tarmac this morning at Andrews and said, I
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: strongly disagree with any criticism of people based on who
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: they vote for. You heard my speech last night. I
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: believe that the work I do is about representing all people,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: whether they support me or not. She'll be a president
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: for all Americans. A lot of Republicans were very relieved
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: to have a chance to pretend to be offended like
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the old days. Imagine a president insulting people to live
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: in a world like that. It's beyond the pale. Obviously,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Trump has called his opponents human scum, the enemy within,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: just to pick two.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: J.D.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Vance has insulted vast swaths of American humanity. Joe Biden
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: is not on the ballot. As much as that would
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: be the Republican preference, Kamala and Josh Shapiro, among others,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: immediately rejected the comment. Time and again, Republicans have refused
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: to criticize Trump when he has said far worse and
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: meant it. But all that being said, come on, Joe,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: what are we doing here? What are we doing here?
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have two thoughts. I guess we'll take Joe first,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: since that's where you're going, and then I'll make fun
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: of the Republicans. I don't think that his intention was
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: actually to call Donald Trump supporters garbage, but who could tell? Really,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: the whole quote is indecipherable. What he talked about before
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: that was not decipherable. And it's just, it's not helpful
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: to be out there. And it gets me a little
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: angry because it's like, I don't know why people in
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: the democratic party and around the biden administration even on
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: the harris campaign like why we feel like we have
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: to baby the president of the united states and like
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: walk on eggshells make sure he feels included and he's
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: the president of the united states like the the president
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: biden should do president things he should have private meetings
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: should meet with the generals he should meet with the
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: pardon committee think about who he's going to pardon and
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: what other obligations he has for the last two months
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: like that is his job for right now it is
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: not helpful for him to be out at all with
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris. He shouldn't take that personally. We shouldn't have
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: to care about what his feelings are about it. He
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: shouldn't make people feel bad that he's not being, whatever. Like,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: you know, you see these leaks in the New York
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Times and Politico about this issue. And I find it
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: very frustrating. He should be just focused, everyone should just
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: be focused singularly on the goal of defeating Donald Trump,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: having Kamala Harris win this election. And it's hard to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: think about anything public that Joe Biden could do that
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: would be beneficial to that goal. It's certainly not being
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: on some Zoom to fill the calendar. I can't possibly
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: think about why that would have been useful. So please,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I'm begging everybody. It's not personal. Nobody take it personally.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: If I made a big gaffe on this podcast and
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: tomorrow Fox News is airing it and it would be
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: better for me to go hide for the last five days,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I will go hide. Whatever it takes, Kamala Harris needs
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: to win. Secondly, Obviously, it's fake outrage, and it's really
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: fucking annoying. And J.D. Vance is out there two days
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: ago saying, we shouldn't be so offended about things. And
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: then yesterday, he's like, I'm so offended on behalf of
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the millions of Americans. It's a simple rule of thumb here.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: If you are overjoyed that somebody said something, you cannot
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: also be offended simultaneously. You cannot be overjoyed about the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: statement and offended about the statement. So if people get
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: offended about things, feel free to be offended. But the
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: mega world, everybody does this a little bit on social media.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: So even positive American listeners, maybe everybody can reflect on
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: whether they've committed this crime. But Republicans have like an
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: entire media ecosystem. Like the Daily Wire and Megyn Kelly exist,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I think, to be fake offended about things that they're
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: actually happy about. And so that is very enraging. And
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: the media should not participate in their little game of pretend.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And so it was a mistake by Joe Biden. But
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: we should also acknowledge that nobody Nobody's actually offended here.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: The people who are pretending to be offended are actually delighted.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And we should just move on, focusing on Kamala Harris
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: versus Donald Trump, which is a very clear contrast on
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the issue of who calls who names more.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And also, by the way, Joe Biden
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: clarified what he meant. It's clear that regardless of the
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: kind of word salad that people are plucking this out of,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: he has often gone out of his way to make
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: clear that this is not the kind of thing he
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: says or intends to say, unlike Donald Trump, who says
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: it and means it on a daily basis and when
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: questioned on it always doubles down. Yes, I do think
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: there is a lot of performative outrage. I think the
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: good side of that, though, is you have a lot
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: of people, your Ben Shapiro and others saying, look at
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: what Joe Biden said. This is offensive. We are offended
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: by this because it's valuable for them. They think it's useful,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: but it's because they are putting themselves in the minds
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: of other people who they think might actually sincerely be offended.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: The problem is it's turtles all the way down. So
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: they say, I find this offensive. A bunch of MAGA
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: people whose hearts have been completely hardened by eight years
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, a decade of Donald Trump, are also
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: sharing it and pointing out saying, can you believe Joe
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Biden said this? I too will pretend to be offended.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But you never get to the people that are actually
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: offended because they just simply don't exist. They don't exist anymore.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: And so they're putting on this show, but I ultimately
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: think it doesn't really matter. And if anything, it also
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: is keeping the Puerto Rico story going for another 24 hours.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And it gives Kamala an opportunity to remind people of
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: how she's distanced herself from Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Galaxy brain. Another great day for Kamala Harris. Thank you,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden. Let's get this fucking guy out there. Let's
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: get him out there. Why are we constraining Joe Biden
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: to a Zoom box with Vote Latino with a terrible
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: camera angle? Let's get him out there. Let's get him
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: out there. The more shit Joe Biden says out there,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the more Kamala Harris can say, I don't resemble that
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: remark at all.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that. It's
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: an interesting theory. It's a good idea. It's a good idea.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: But I don't know. I think maybe ice cream in
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Delaware and like meetings.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: A lot of meetings.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Fill that calendar. Meet up. Meet people.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of people. We have Americans doing
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: great work in Antarctica that would, I think, really appreciate
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: a visit from the president here in the last couple
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: of days. There's the DMZ. where a visit from the
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: president without press might be something that would hearten a
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: lot of people doing the country's work.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Think about all the Peace Corps people doing good work.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: You could just do a full Peace Corps tour, you know?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: We've got people working to clear brush in the rural
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: parts of California and the Pacific Northwest to prevent forest fires.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Those are people that could use a big hello from
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the president of the United States. There's a lot of
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: good that the president could do over the next seven days.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: And so I think that's important.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: I think so too. And we appreciate you. We appreciate you.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: It's been a good four years, but we're not going back.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Coconut time.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: So meanwhile, on the other side, MAGA World has, I think,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: persuaded themselves of bullshit interpretations of early vote. They're giddy.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: And they can't help but share some of their least
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: popular plans. Elon has been elaborating on the terrible economy
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: he has in store for us when he is put
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: in charge of government budgets. Mike Johnson says Republicans in
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the House will dismantle the ACA. And Trump reminds everyone
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: about his plans to empower RFK Jr. Let's listen.
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: I'm going to let him go wild on health.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to let him go wild on the food.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to let him go wild on medicines.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: How much do you think we can rip out of
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: this wasted $ 6.
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: 5 trillion Harris-Biden budget?
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: Well, I think we can do at least $ 2 trillion. Yeah! Yes.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: $ 2 trillion.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: That necessarily involves some temporary hardship, but it will ensure
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: long-term prosperity. And so health care is one of the sectors,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: but we need this across the board. And Trump's going
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: to go big. I mean, he's only going to have
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: one more term, right?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Cameron for election.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And so he's going to be thinking about legacy.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And we're going to.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Fix those things.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: No Obamacare.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: No Obamacare.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: The ACA is so deeply ingrained.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: We need massive reform to make this work.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: And we've got a lot of ideas.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: On how to do that.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Concepts.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So Elon, concepts of ideas. So Elon, quite the surrogate,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: saying they're going to cut $ 2 trillion. It will cause
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: temporary hardship. Uh, he responded to somebody on social media
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: who was pointing out all the ways in which this
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: would be devastating for the economy. And Elon agreed that
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: there would be, um, uh, something like a crash, uh,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: because that's what you have to do, uh, to get
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to the promised land of a low tax, no regulation,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: free market in which he can launch rockets everywhere. But, uh, uh,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: do you think Elon saying this kind of thing, uh,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Is something that could break through?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Trump, temporary hardships. I think you just put that right
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: there on a hat, you know? hate that question. Will
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: it break through? I don't know. How the fuck do
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I know if it'll break through? I'll tell you this.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Here's what I do know. It will cause temporary hardships.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: And I think that it could be a continued message
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: that people should talk about with There are essentially three
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: key groups of people left to talk about. You and
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: AOC are going to have a very happy, nudging chat,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: encouraging chat with the progressives who aren't sure what to do.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: There are the younger voters mostly, but people that are
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: just kind of like, meh, should I vote or not,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: that are traditionally Democrats. You've got to figure out how
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: to motivate them. Hopefully Bad Bunny is helping with that,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: other things. And then you have my people, the Nikki
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Haley people. And I do think continuing to speak to them.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: about how they are serious about this. Like you think
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: that their plans are 2017 when Mitch McConnell and Paul
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Ryan wrote the tax cut bill that you liked. That's
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: not their plan right now. You know, the last seven
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: speakers were like, it was like a Eastern European oligarchy.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: It was like three family members, two oligarchs, and like
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: two members of the former party that he bought off
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: to switch to the other side. Like there was no
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: normal Republicans in that Madison Square Garden thing. It was
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: RFK and all of them. So communicating to them, that
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: is what they're really going to do. Those are the
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: real people in the inner circle. The tariffs are coming.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: That is going to fuck with your 401k. You're not
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: getting the tax cut that you want. What you're getting
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: is tariffs good and hard and mass deportations, which is
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: going to potentially impact, I don't know, building projects and
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: other things that you want to do as far as
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: workers are concerned. So I think that message.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Can still work on the margins. And I do think
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Elon's helping with that.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Trump said something to Rogan deep within that three-hour conversation,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: which was something like, when I talk to people in business,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: I said, what's more important, deregulation or cutting the taxes?
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: They all said deregulation. He obviously meant that in defense
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: of his overall agenda. But actually, I think that is
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: reflective of why this argument would be helpful, which is, hey,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: 15% tax rate in an a in a chaotic crashing
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: economy dealing with the after-effects of tariffs and mass deportations
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and and huge budget cuts that affect everything from Social
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Security to The basic functioning of government You know a
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: lower tax rate in that economy is not better than
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: a stable growing economy with a 21% by the way
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: still ridiculously low corporate tax rate and What about ACA too?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: I do think like, it's interesting. Mike Johnson, the guy says,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: no Obamacare. And Johnson goes, no Obamacare. And it was
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: very Veep adjacent. It's like, wait, are you saying- It's
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: like the comma, you're out of the comma.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Where's the comma?
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Obamacare? No Obamacare, question mark. But I do think, however
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: you interpret that piece of it, he is saying Obamacare
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: is entrenched, but we have a plan to get under it.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and dismantle it via regulation, via legislation, even if they're
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: not going to walk people through it.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: It's like that Lionel Hutt's business card, no comma, money down,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: exclamation point, no money down. A big part of this
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: podcast today is interpreting apostrophes and commas and the words
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of Joe Biden and Mike Johnson. I guess I turn
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: it back on you. I don't know. Democratic nerds and
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: polling types and analysts are convinced that Obamacare still is
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: a very salient and effective issue. And I sort of
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: am neutral on that because I think that abortion obviously is.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I just discussed what I think works with Nikki Haley voters.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: My people are not, you know, the group that I
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: spend the most time listening to and focus groups and whatnot,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: this is not what's going to be the motivating issue
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: for them. But obviously, you know, it's gained popularity and
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the smarties on the Democratic side think it works. So
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I'm open to that.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: I do think there's a little bit of the same
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: kind of, you know, Trump's a fascist, but wait, he
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: was already president. That didn't happen. They're going to repeal Obamacare.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: They're already in charge and that didn't happen. So I
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: think you're going to have to now at this point,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you can't just say they want to repeal Obamacare. Even
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: if people don't want that, I think it doesn't really,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: it doesn't sort of light the right Fires, but I
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: do think you say they want to dismantle consumer protections
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: around health care. They want to dismantle the discounts you
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: get On on prescriptions. They want to dismantle the way
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: in which you have Preventive care in which you have
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: limits on co-pays all that like the those kinds of
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: those kinds of I think Specifics I think can matter.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I agree with that. Can I just have one second
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like a 20-second rant on the fascism didn't happen? Because
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: it does drive me crazy. Sure. I mean, the Capitol
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: was stormed. I just, like, the whole thing really, like,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: I did a one-hour debate with Dan Crenshaw, which shows
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: that things are really busy in the House of Representatives,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: where this was his argument the whole time. He keeps
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: going back to, like, well, in 2017, fascism didn't happen.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: And it's like, if you showed anybody the front page
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: of the newspaper on January 7th and you know, you
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: back to the future, back to 2014, like two, like Steve,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: my buddy, Steve Bannon, 2% of the country would be like, cool. Yeah.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I'm in on that. Like everybody else would have been like,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, fuck. No, we never, we'll never do vote,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: do that. So like the goalposts get moved on this
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: stuff a lot. And it's true on the fascism and
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: on the Obamacare stuff. And I guess, I guess what
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: we're saying is like, it's, we're just, we're throwing up
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: our hands. It's just frustrating. It's like, this hasn't broken
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: through and we just, we have to, we have to
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: use our favorite phrase of meeting the people where they are.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Well, you, you were mad at me for even referring to,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: to whether or not something is, is breaking through or not.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, we, we have to make it break through.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't mad at you. I would never be mad
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: at you. I was just saying, I don't, I don't
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: know how to answer that question.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I think we have to make it break through as
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: the answer, but the, the, the yes. I mean, the
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: other piece of it too, is it's, I, part of
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: why I think it's a hard, like, I don't think
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: you say like, is, is Donald Trump fascist? Like I,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It's a, I feel like the only way to win
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: that game is not to play. You just got to
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: get people to be convinced. We know what fascism is.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I don't need to have a whole fucking academic debate
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: in politics in public about the definition of fascism, which
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I of course believe Donald Trump means. I think part
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: of what we need to do is just lay out
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: what those things are and make the case on each
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: one of them. Like, because if you go down the list, uh, uh,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: sewing disinformation and mistrust in the media, uh, A lionization
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: of masculinity at the expense of women in defense of
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: traditional patriarchies, declaring an enemy the source of all of
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: our problems, intimidating people. By the way, one of the reasons,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: not just January 6th, right now, and it's not just
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: the advanced compliance of Jeff Bezos and avoiding an endorsement.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: We have heard from Republican after Republican that they are
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: afraid to speak out about Donald Trump because of threats
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to their family, because of the fear of political violence.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: The fascist threat of violence is already warping our politics.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: That warping is happening. It is in front of us.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: There are Republicans right now who would be speaking out,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: but they are afraid of retribution. There are business leaders
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: who would be speaking out right now, but they are
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: afraid of retribution. That is a response to the ways
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: in which Donald Trump is an authoritarian fascist. You don't
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: stop being a fascist because you don't get everything you
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: want in your first term because you're surrounded by people
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: who aren't fascists. They're right-wing Republicans. They're craven, but they're
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: not going along with fascism. You don't get to do
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: full fascism until you're surrounded by fascists. That doesn't mean
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: you weren't a fascist because you failed.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I'm snapping.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Speaking of, before we let you go, Tim, because you're
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: a recording machine, it's not just the stakes around policy.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: We are reminded in these closing days of the kind
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: of people that will surround Donald Trump if he wins.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon just got out of jail. He's back to
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: podcasting and claiming Democrats are rigging the election. Mike Flynn
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: is claiming he's going to unleash hell on Trump's enemies.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Also saw this morning you were reacting to this clip
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: from Trump confidant Johnny McEntee. Let's play that clip. So
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I guess they misunderstood when we said we wanted mail
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: only voting. We met male M-A-L-E. A good one.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: He's such a douche nozzle.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: So, look, I'm sure already there's like, oh, you liberals,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: you can't take a joke. But can you just remind
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: everybody who McEntee is?
• 38:21
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: Look, this is why it's important because, yes, they're fools. Yes,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: we should laugh at them. But they're the fools that
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: will be in charge, and they have very radical views.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Johnny McEntee was, they called him the deputy president because
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: he was so close to Trump. He started that date
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: right stuff. So if any of you are on TikTok,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: you've probably seen his stupid TikToks, which that was one
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: of them. But more importantly, he was in charge of
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: the staffing in the administrative state, as they got later
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: on in the White House. Donald Trump realized one of
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: his problems was he had too many of these normal,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: boring alex p keaton republicans you know around him you
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: know too many people with briefcases and khakis like he
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: needed more maga in there so he put johnny in
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: charge of getting more loyalists in so that was his
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: job and then and then as part of project 2025
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: like his job has been helping the heritage foundation like
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: organize the list of people that would go in who
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: would be loyalists so you have that guy with the
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: all-male voting he's going to be in charge of the
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: hiring that should alarm you you've banned him coming out
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: of prison and you know i had you know i
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: It's almost not even worth discussing. Obviously, they're going to
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: lie about the election again. I went back and forth
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: with him kind of tongue in cheek about whether he's
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: reformed at all. The answer is no. There's no relooking
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: at 2020. They have no remorse over the police that
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: were injured. None of that. They're already planning it again.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: On his first podcast back, he said that the fight
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: goes through Inauguration Day. And he specifically says in that, yes,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: that includes on January 6th. that might not be a
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: direct quote with the fight, but like the, whatever, our
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: efforts go on to, to, to January 20th. And so,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: and that, but he does mention January 6th. And so
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: that's alarming. But like the other thing that is just,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: that ties back to my point about who was around
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Trump at Madison Square Garden, his family, these sycophants, extremists,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: not traditional politician types. At the Bannon press conference around
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: him was Jeff Clark, who they tried to put in
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: ahead at the head of DOJ during the coup. It
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: was that Mike Davis guy that tweets about how Maddy
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Hassan should be in the women's gulag. And it was
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: a bunch of other weirdos. Dude, it felt like we
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: were in a movie about a fictional Eastern European country
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: and somebody comes out of jail and he's like, I've
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: got my goombas with me and I've got my bag
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: men and I've got a guy with one eye. It
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: was the weirdest group of people ever. But these are
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the people that will be around, the people that were
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: cheering for Steve Bannon on his post-prison press conference, the family,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: the oligarchs, the Johnny McEntees. That is who will staff
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: the next administration. And you don't have to have any
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: love for H.R. McMaster or Reince Priebus or anything to
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: recognize that it's a category difference of people. And they
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: don't deserve to be in the White House, but it
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: also is extremely alarming about what kinds of stuff that
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Trump wanted to do that he might be able to
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: do with people like this around him.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Jeffrey Clark, you might remember, last time you saw him,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: he was standing outside his house in a shirt and
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: boxers as the FBI was searching his home because of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: his involvement in the effort to overturn the election from inside.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: The horrible mental image. If you haven't seen it, I
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: wouldn't Google it.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Well, it's seared into my mind. Tim, we were going
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: to do some superlatives, but we've just had too much
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: to talk about.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: We were?
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: What superlative? Can we do one superlative?
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: Let's do one.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Let's do one.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Let's do one. Who is most likely to take the
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: MAGA reins if Donald Trump loses?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I think JD. I don't think it was him at
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: the beginning, but I think he's really kind of found
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: his sea legs on these bro podcasts. And I think
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: that Tucker and Elon kind of like being the power
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: behind the throne and don't want to actually run. Tucker,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I think, is the person that has the most natural
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: presentation skill. But JD has proven himself pliant, and he's
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: proven himself appealing enough, likable enough, and appealing enough to
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: do it, which I think they were very unsure about
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: in the first month or two of the campaign. So
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I think, sadly, we are stuck with the worst elder
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: millennial for quite a while now, no matter what happens.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: But he will be sad next week.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: He'll be sad next week when we're living in that
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: coconut grove. And I appreciate everybody. that is going to
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: help make that happen.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you, Tim. Look at this. Look at
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: this Tim Miller, a man of righteous principle and outrage.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I just love this country, John Lovett. I just love
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: this country, you know, and if that's a flaw, then whatever.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: He's gay for America.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: I love content.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: All right, John, I appreciate you. OK, after the break,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: you're going to hear my conversation with AOC, which I
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: want to note we recorded before the MSG rally. We
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: did talk about Puerto Rico, and I actually think the
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: conversation we had about the politics in Puerto Rico explains
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: a bit of why this comment at the MSG rally
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: resonated so much. We also talked about campaigning in Pennsylvania
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: and how to make the case for Kamala Harris, both
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: to less engaged voters and to hyper engaged progressives who
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: might be considering sitting this one out. But before we
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: get to that, here's how Ponce of America is gearing
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: up for the insane week ahead. We're going to be
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: releasing new episodes every weekday until the race is called,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: diving deep into the results and getting through whatever may
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: come with you. Also, what a day. We'll have updates
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: each morning with Jane Koston breaking down all the news
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: in just 20 minutes. And if legal challenges start flying,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Crooked's go-to legal experts from Strict Scrutiny will stop by
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: on shows across the network to unpack the shenanigans and
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: what they mean. Make sure to subscribe and follow Crooked
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Media and Pod Save America on Instagram to get all
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: the headlines right in your feed. And, you know, as always,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: we're in your podcast feeds. We're on YouTube. We're everywhere.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: You know, the sun never sets. It may set on America,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: but we'll be here, I suppose. And listen, we are
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: in the last few days before this election. We have
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: just been to campuses around some of these house races
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: that are going to be really close. We're about to
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: head to Arizona and Nevada. where those races are really close.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Wherever you are, there is a race where you could
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: have an impact in the homestretch. There are campaigns that still,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: believe it or not, could use some money in the homestretch.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: They could certainly use your texts and your calls and
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: your physical plant to knock on some doors. Please, please,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: please do whatever you can in these final days. You
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: got Mike Johnson and Donald Trump talking about a secret.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: If we win the house, we won't have to worry
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: about it. You got Elon talking about cutting $ 2 trillion and, uh, uh,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: The economic devastation of deporting 10 million people, if we
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: knock on enough doors, we don't have to worry about it.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I would like to not worry about it. So everybody
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: in the last couple of days, do whatever you can. VoteSaveAmerica.com.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: You can also go there to fill out your ballot
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and send Vote Save America to other people in your
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: life so they can fill out their ballot too with
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: our Build Your Own Ballot tool. Everything's on the line.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Climate's on the line. Abortion's on the line. Our sanity's
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: on the line. Let's go. VoteSaveAmerica.com. And when we come back, AOC.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: In a race that may be decided by a few
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: votes per precinct in a handful of states, success will
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: come down to persuading people not just to vote for
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Harris over Trump, but whether to vote at all. Here
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: to talk about that mission, it's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Welcome back
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: to the pod.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: You've been campaigning and canvassing in Pennsylvania. How are the vibes?
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: They're good.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: They're good. You know, I think that the ground game
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: that Democrats have out there is really encouraging. We had
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: a thousand people out canvassing in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: But we have a lot of work to do. We
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: need to motivate a lot of people to go to
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: the polls. And it's going to be really, really tight.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about this. You made the case at
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: this labor rally for Harris-Walls.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: And there are two worlds before us right now. One
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: is a road where we do go back and worse.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: We're not going to do that. But that is a road.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: where folks take our liberties for granted. That's what that
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: road looks like. We can't do that because the only
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: people that we punish are the most vulnerable in this
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: country by sitting this election out, the most vulnerable. And
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna make
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: poor families pay for the failures of our government today.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: And to really feel in that speech how much you
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: have thought about the argument to those who might sit
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: this election out. You've also been canvassing in parts of
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: PA that have traditionally had lower turnout. What's the case
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: you're making? Who are you trying to reach? And what's
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: the response been?
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: You know, I think the case is different depending on
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: who we're trying to reach. I've been to places like Reading, Pennsylvania,
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: which is a very Latino and very Puerto Rican city.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: that has historically had very low voter turnout because they
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: haven't seen or experienced a lot of politicians care about them.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: And I think that I relate a lot to that.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: I represent a community that experienced that for a really
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: long time. And so to me, when it comes to
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: that argument, it's doing the work of showing up and
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: actually seeing communities and saying, actually, it's not up to
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: you to have to show up first, to have a
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: politician care about you. We need to be able to
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: be out there and see you first. And so I
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: think for a disaffected community like that, that's why it's
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: been very important for me to go to Pennsylvania and
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: go to places like Reading. Then you also have an
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: activist left that is also a place that I come
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: from that is horrified at what we see unfolding in Gaza.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: I have called it a genocide on the House floor.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: Many others feel that way as well. and saying, how
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: can we allow our disgust at what is happening be
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: transmitted and communicated? And can we communicate that? Should we
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: communicate that by sitting this election out? To me, that
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: case is a different one. It's a different one than
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: communities that have been disaffected and ignored and are hearing
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: from a politician for the first time. That, to me,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: that case is very much about, first of all, the
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: stakes of this present moment. It's also about articulating a
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: larger plan and how we get the Democratic Party to
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: shift left. For me, and what I've seen, and also
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: I think what we see in general, is that the
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: party moves left in prime But when we lose general elections,
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: the Democratic Party shifts dramatically to the right. When elections
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: are close, as we see now, the Democratic Party shifts
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: to the right in general elections. And so to me,
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: it's One, a Donald Trump presidency would be utterly catastrophic.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: It would put vulnerable communities, even more vulnerable communities, at
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: risk in addition to the ones that are at risk
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: right now. So to me, the message that I had
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania is I'm not going to punish trans kids
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: in Indiana over this. I'm not going to punish single
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: parents who are feeding their kids with WIC and EBT
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: over this. And we also need to really invest in
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: a long-term organizing strategy so that candidates who believe that
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: human rights extend to Palestinians can be elected and supported
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: by a strong, mobilized left in America.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting because what I hear there is basically
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: a very practical case to people who are thinking about
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: how to use their vote in the most effective way
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: when they feel pretty disaffected by their options. At the
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: same time, there is this kind of more emotional or
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: identity-driven conversation about this vote, especially online, that feels much
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: less driven by just outcomes and much more about... There's
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of rhetorical questions. How could I bring myself?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: How could anyone? And look, I I want to be sympathetic.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: At the same time, I have this part of myself
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: that should go like, I know, I know. Suck it up.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: We just have to do this. We have to do
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: this right now to save the country and give us
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: any fighting chance. We can ask the hard questions, the
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: rhetorical questions after the election. But you don't do that.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: You seem to have much more discipline. And empathy. So
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: how do you think about talking to people that are
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: feeling that way? And by the way, whose feeds have
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: been filled with monstrous images who have been fed real
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: and awful images of reality that has alienated them from
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: the political process?
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I really can empathize in multiple ways.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: One is I totally get the frustration and I also
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: totally get where, how people feel about this. First of all,
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: our brains, our minds are, the human brain is not
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: designed to intake this amount of trauma, anger, mass, everything
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: all the time. The same way that people just cannot
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: our minds are not built to withstand the trauma of
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: what is happening in Gaza. Palestinians, Americans watching what is happening,
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: you know, seeing this unspeakable violence. It is, it's, we
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: have to understand what that does to our brains and
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: what it does to our minds. But to me, we
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: have a responsibility to set conditions on behalf of, individuals
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: who are just experiencing the horrors of what is happening.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: But also I think it is important that to me,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: my vote is not about an extension of myself. And
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: I think it's important to validate that there are different
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: ways to looking at voting. Some may look or hear
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: or see who we vote for as an extension of ourselves.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: And if we look at voting that way, then every
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: single election becomes so much more fraught because you're just
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: never going to find a politician that aligns with you
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: completely in every single way. I don't even agree with
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: my mother on everything. It will make these decisions much
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: more difficult. But when I think about the history of
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: people's movements and people's struggles, when I think about the
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: enslavement of Black Americans and when I think about, you know,
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Puerto Ricans that were sterilized by the U.S. government, when
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: I think about people's movements and the horrors that people
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: in the United States endured, they are often both the
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: most radical and the most pragmatic people strategic actors in
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: American history. And we can be both. I draw a
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: lot of inspiration from Latin American organizing and the Latin
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: American left. And we see this a lot in the
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Latin American left as well. What we need is an
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: activism that is not limited by electoralism only. And that
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean rejecting electoralism. It means of thinking of elections
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: as a condition-setting strategy for a larger organizing project. We
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: have a lot of work that we need to do.
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: And it's not going to be voting alone that stops
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: what happens in Gaza. We need a counter to AIPAC.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: We need a voting electorate that supports people who believe
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: in human rights in primary elections. And you need non-electoral,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: of course, organizing strategies as well. But I never ascribe personally,
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: I do not believe in ascribing to a strategy of
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: giving up the power that we have and allowing this
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: decision to be made not by us.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned this broader organizing of the left and
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: in Latin America. You were just in Puerto Rico and
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: there's something very interesting happening down there. And I wanted
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to ask you about it because it is a kind
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: of organizing that I think in contrast to sometimes what
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: you see on the left in the U.S., something that
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: has been like exciting. There have been a lot of
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: protests that you were saying have become almost like giant parties.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: You have people like Bad Bunny getting in the fight
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: and you kind of want to be on your side
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: and Bad Bunny's side, I think, in general. So what's
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: happening in Puerto Rico and what are the lessons there
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: win or lose for progressives organizing against corruption.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: In the U.S.? Yeah, no, I mean, I actually think
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of lessons that we can gain from
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: what is happening in Puerto Rico. It's really, really an
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: exciting and utterly historic moment that we're seeing. For a
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: very long time, there has been basically a corrupt two-party
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: system in Puerto Rico. But in Puerto Rico, parties are
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: not aligned by left and right. They're aligned by status.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: So there's a pro-statehood party. There's been a pro-commonwealth, which
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: is to say like the current status quo party. And
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: for a very long time, there was kind of an
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: independence party that got a very, very small amount of
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: the vote. But the problem is that over time, both
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: of these parties, neither one of them really delivered on
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: any sort of status momentum. They used it as a
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: fig leaf. for a lot of self-serving, corrupt machine type
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: of politics. And we saw this after Hurricane Maria. You
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: had Donald Trump's enormous amount of corruption where millions of
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: dollars were going to his cronies. But you also saw
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: this on the island, too. A lot of politicians were
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: misusing funds and it, you know, Everyday people were suffering
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: and people started getting sick of this and they started
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: getting sick of that kind of the way the system
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: was being built up. And so around 2018, people started
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: seriously pursuing a third party strategy. This is different than
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: the third party strategy that sometimes we see in the
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: continental U.S., which is like every presidential election, someone may
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: come up or you'll see a third party candidate or,
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: you know, pop up for massive statewide seats. But it
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: was a serious, very pragmatic third party coalition party that
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: was saying, we're not going to run on a status
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: position period. We're going to run on good governance and
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: we're going to be an anti-corruption party. They're going to
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: have a youth movement at its core, but they're also
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: going to recruit very real and capable legislators and leaders
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: to try to run. And so they started capturing city
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: council seats. They started capturing mayoral seats. They started capturing
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: state assembly and state senate seats. And over the last
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: six years, a lot of progress has been made in
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: a very short period of time. And this year, they
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: have formed an alliance with the Independence Party and what
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: is known as Movimiento Ciudadana, the Citizens Movement Party, in
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: creating a multi-status coalition saying if you believe in statehood,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: if you believe in independence, if you believe in commonwealth status,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: we're going to put all of that aside right now.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: What matters the most right now is electing politicians that
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: are accountable to the electorate and who aren't corrupt. And
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: this is a really important lesson for the left because,
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: you know, for example, a lot of folks in a
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: more militant, decolonial position, would say you should never be
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: in coalition. If that's the position that a person has,
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: for example, like super pro-independence, they may say you should
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: never be in any sort of alliance with any sort
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: of pro-statehood supporter. But that will leave you marginalized in
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: 3% forever, right? And then all that does is have
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: the people who are most opposed to your position be,
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: you know, continue to be in power or on the
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: opposite side of the spectrum. A pro-statehood supporter may say
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: we should never, ever, ever be in alliance with independent supporters.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: But to that end, then all that happens is that
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: you just get these super corrupt people that then represent
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: your party and you'll never have any other option. And
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: so what we're starting to see are the steps of movement.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: You know, we can't have sometimes, we can't get to
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: the conclusions that we need to get to because it's
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: not just these systems that we're combating against. We actually
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: need to win a majority of people. And too often
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: we're organizing intra-left and the left needs to also organize
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: the an electoral majority to our position. I think we've
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: made a lot of momentum to that end. But when
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: we have these conversations, that's why to me, sometimes these decisions,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: they do need to be much more pragmatic. And our
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: activism is where we can exercise some of our deepest convictions.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about being pragmatic in the homestretch here.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: John Kelly, one of Trump's chiefs of staff, went on
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: the record in audio, won't say it on camera for
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: some reason, that Trump is a fascist. It set off
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: a real Trump's a fascist news cycle. Vice President Harris
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: agreed with the sentiment on her CNN town hall with
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Anderson Cooper. Obviously, Trump is a threat. Also, the Harris
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: campaign is trying to, I think, turn up the anxiety
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: a little bit when people have become a bit inured
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: to the menace that Trump poses. But, you know, you're
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: talking about these two groups of people How do you
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: translate a story like that into an argument that's either
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: trying to bring out the people who are reluctant to
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: either vote at all or who have concerns about Kamala Harris?
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: To me, it's about talking about the stakes here in
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: specific ways. You know, I think it's we we need
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: to be very clear about what fascism means. This is
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: not a name that we're calling people. This is a
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: very specific set of policies and actions that will occur.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump talks about mass deportations. One in every 15
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: people in the United States lives in a mixed status household.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: One in every 15. Think about all the people you know,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: and one out of every 15 of them have a
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: family member who is undocumented. We're talking about breaking up
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: every 15th, family in the United States.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: J.D.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: Vance and Project 2025 is not just talking about a
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: national ban on abortion, which if you think you're quote
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: unquote safe in New York or Illinois or California, you're not.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: A national abortion ban would triumph over any state level
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: abortion protection. We are talking about abortion being banned in
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: the United States point blank period. And not only would
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: it be banned, but unlike the 1970s, today we have
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: a level of surveillance technology which was unthinkable then. And
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: you can be tracked, and they want to track you
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: based on any amalgam of information from your cycle, from
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: your Fitbit, from geolocation on your phone, if you tried
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: to get an abortion anywhere else. We are talking about
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: the jailing of journalists. If you want to know what
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: it looks like, just look at Putin's Russia. And, you know,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: we live in a constant state of injustice and we're
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: always struggling against systems of mass incarceration, of extreme income inequality,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: of late stage capitalism. Those conditions do exist. They're is
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: no conceivable way to compare the current system of injustices
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: that we have when the gasoline is poured on them
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: by a Donald Trump presidency. And for folks who believe
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: that this will somehow make some sort of just outcome accelerated,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: just look at what happened in 2016. We've gone down
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: this path and it's going to be a hundred times worse.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: Because Donald Trump knows what mistakes he made the first
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: time now. And he knows that he will not need
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: to install professionals. He just needs to install sycophants. And
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: he's made that very, very, very clear.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, I'm going to.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: I guess I was going to end this by saying,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: what drinks are we going to make on election night?
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: But I guess I'm just going to skip to that
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: right now. Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, thank you so much for coming
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: on the pod. Good luck on the trail.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Get those people. Get those people.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I do think, one thing that I
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: think is important, John, is that we can't have, I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: know I just did this, but I'm pausing.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: Because when we, yes, we can ask the questions about
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: what's at stake. But I want to be very clear
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: that we also must mobilize for an affirmative vision for
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: this country. We can't just mobilize on fear. We need
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: to be clear about what the stakes are.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: We do.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: But I don't believe in a fear-only approach. And I'll
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: tell you what I believe. I believe in a bare minimum. Listen,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: $ 15 minimum wage needed to be passed several years ago.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: But doing that day one and fighting to hike that
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: even higher. I believe in guaranteed improved and expanded Medicare
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: available to every single American. I believe in all, you know,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: a wide swath of our progressive agenda. I understand that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: a lot of people may say Kamala Harris may or
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: may not believe in these things. First of all, I
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: think she believes in them like much more on a
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: personal level than oftentimes what campaign rhetoric 14 days out
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: from an election would have someone believe. But not only that,
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: We just can't give up. And I just don't believe
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: in giving up. I've been in that place when I
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: was a waitress and barely made enough in tips to
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: keep my lights on. I did spend some time giving
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: up and being cynical and saying, fuck this. And you
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: know what it got us? Nothing. It got us nothing
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: but depression and cynicism. and a sense of purposelessness. And
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: it was only when I decided to reject that, that
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: we decided to start organizing and having absolute breakthroughs in
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: our electoral process. And I'm not just talking about my victory.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: In the state of New York, DSA has elected state-level
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: activists to office that have helped us pass some of
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: the biggest, most progressive policies On the state level, it
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: helps inform what we're having, what's happening on the federal level.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: Like we cannot give up. We, giving up is a
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: privilege that people just can't afford. We cannot afford to
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: give up on women who are bleeding out in parking lots.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: I refuse to give up on these folks. And like
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: movements wax and wane. And there are times when our
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: power feels like it's waning. And it's really easy to
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: take our ball and go home. But the strength of
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: a movement really depends on the durability of it and
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: the commitment to it.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: You said something in that speech at the labor movement,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: which sort of struck me. You said some version of
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: you understand why people feel this tension. They feel this
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: sense of struggle because we're kind of at this moment
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: between the past and the future. And obviously... That's about
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Trump is backwards and Kamala is forwards. But it did
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: feel like you were saying something a bit deeper about
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: this moment and about like we have like there have
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: been local elections. Joe Biden is a testament to this
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: on a host of domestic issues. Joe Biden. We moved him.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: He moved moved him so far. Joe Biden is his
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: policy positions are so different than where he had started.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: It is remarkable. That is a testament to what happens
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: when people actually show up.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: So everybody's got to show up.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: And I can tell you as an elected, and I
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: work with a lot of other Congress critters too, like
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: they pay attention to who got them there. They talk about,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: you stick with who took you to the dance, right?
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: And like, that's whatever people may want to feel about
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: that phrase. The reality is you don't want people to
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: feel like they can win without you. Losing is not
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: the same thing as winning without you. Because losing... when
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: people opt out, the fact of the matter is huge
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: amounts of people don't vote for reasons that are not
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: ideological at all. The way we send a message is
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: by being part of what a politician relies on to
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: get elected in office. And again, if we want to
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: move the party left, we need to be able to
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: engage forcefully in the primary process. Bernie Sanders did this
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: in 2020. But we also need to have a reality
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: check with ourselves because the left, we need to organize
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: in the primary process, whether it's through electing folks or
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: defending and protecting folks in the primary process as well.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: And if we can't electorally cash our own checks, then
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: we cannot push the issues forward. And so to me,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: having a resounding electorate is really important. The reason I
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: can do what I do in Congress is It's because
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: my electoral margins go up every single cycle. This year
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: I won by the highest primary margin that I have yet,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: 80-something percent. That is an FU margin where I can
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: then go to House caucus and I'm like, this is
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: what my community believes. This is what is right. And
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: you can come after me with all your APAC dollars
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: that you want, but it's not going to work. It's
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: not going to work around here. And those are the
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: kinds of seats and margins that we need to win by,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: but we're not going to do it by counting everything
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: out all the time. It's just like this black pill,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: like cynicism that is what is the death of movements,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: not the birth of them.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: AOC, thank you so much for your time. And for
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: anyone listening, if you've got somebody in your life that
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: has given you the business of this variety... Send them
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: what AOC had to say. Thank you so much for
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: being here. And yeah, let's win this thing, I suppose.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you all so much. Let's do it.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Thank you to Tim for
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: co-hosting and a huge thanks to AOC for joining us.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: Dan and John will be back in the feed on
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Friday morning with a new episode and an interview with
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: Dan Osborne, the independent Senate candidate in Nebraska, who surged
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: to a tie with incumbent Republican in a deep red state.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: Don't miss it. Thanks, everybody.
• 1:11:43
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• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at cricket.com
• 1:11:50
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• 1:12:08
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• 1:12:11
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• 1:12:14
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• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: DeGroat is our head of production.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hepcote,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelleviv, and David Toles.