Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / A Killer in the Family Tree | Mark Dribin & Kenneth Griffin, Portland, OR

Transcript

A Killer in the Family Tree | Mark Dribin & Kenneth Griffin, Portland, OR · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On August 11th of 2000, the Oregon State Medical Examiner's
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Office issued a presumptive death certificate and the homicide investigation
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: went cold. I don't think I've ever heard of a
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: presumptive death certificate being issued quite that quickly. But I mean,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. Even when a family could
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: move forward with a presumptive death certificate, in some cases
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: they choose to hold off. They're faced with kind of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a heartbreaking and truly is a deeply personal decision in
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: that case. And that's, you know, far from the only
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: one they have to make. Hi, Taylin. Hi, Caitlin. This
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the paranormal, and everything spooky in the Pacific Northwest. Or, um,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: the PNW. If you're nasty.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I can't say anything else confidently because it'll just.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Land up like last time. Everything is a question mark
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the rest of the day. I'm Ron Burgundy. Exactly. We
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: also do a little tarot reading at the end of
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: And Cassie hasn't been here since like before all of
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: like the last couple of weeks of my like work travel,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: family travel. But I have, since the time that I
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: saw her last, I have acquired two new decks. I'm
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: realizing I should probably use one of the new ones. Ooh, okay. Yeah.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I also have a souvenir on her desk that I
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: totally forgot to give her when we came home from
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: our second California trip. And it's on her desk. I
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: got her something fun from the Queen Mary collection. Oh,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: you went to the Queen Mary? Yeah. Oh, man. Very spooky.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I cannot wait. Like, one of these next recording sessions,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to try to, like, grab Chris
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: and have him come in and tell you guys about
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the thing that happened at the pool on the Queen Mary. Okay, clickbait.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: I know. I want to know. I want to know.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: We'll chat about it. We'll chat about it. So I
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: got a tarot deck from the Queen Mary. Oh, fun. Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: It's like a little teeny tiny guy. So I have
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: two new tarot decks. So we'll use one of the
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: new ones. Okay. Today, our story centers on two Portland disappearances,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: both victims with no known connection to each other or
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to the man who killed them. And I guess I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: could have been a little more mysterious and said to
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: the person or individual that killed them. Because for all
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: you knew, it was a lady or a rhino. But
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: let's be real. It's always a man. Usually, yes. A
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: circuitous investigative trail and a single DNA profile previously unidentified
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: for years would eventually link them to each other and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: to their killer. This case was covered by Bloodline Detectives.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: We'll link to the episode in the show notes for
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: anyone interested in checking that out as well. And if
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you do watch the episode, you will likely notice a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: familiar face slash newly minted talking head. None other than
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: yours truly. It's about damn time. Please don't. judge me
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: for any of the minor aesthetic issues that occurred in
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: my interview. What? At one point, I looked over on
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the screen in one of the episodes, and I think
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: it was this one, and I was like, you can
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: totally see part of my bra strap. Oh, please. And
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well, it's not the end of
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the world. I think people are probably not as worried
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: about that. Like, that was... a horrifying offense. I feel
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: like when we were younger. Oh, yeah. Your bra strap show.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: It was the most embarrassing thing. Yeah. And I was like, okay,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: it's really not that big of a deal. And like,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: it's only in one clip, I think, or, you know,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: maybe it's the whole damn time. And I'm just in denial.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: But I was like, it's, it's probably not the end
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: of the world.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: No, things have changed. I'll wear a purple bra under
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: a white shirt. Everything is good.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was just like, oh, man, I just I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: would hate for that to be like something that like
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: people focus on instead of like the episode itself. Unlikely.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know. People are so easily distracted. Well, yeah.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Yeah. Don't focus on it,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: you guys. That's all I'll be able to focus on
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: now when I write that, by the way. I feel
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: like I just Barbra Streisand affected myself. A little bit,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: but that's okay. What are you going to do? Hey,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: if I didn't do it, you know. You're right. Beat
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: him to the punch. I wouldn't be me. So, I mean,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: we've talked about kind of the... There's a lot of
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: things that we've talked about. Different cool experiences that we've
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: had because of the show. And I have to say
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: this was kind of a... This was a pretty cool one. And...
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. They sent us with gifties, too,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: for our trouble. It's been many, many moons since then,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: but they sent me with a bottle of Jameson for
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: myself and for my co-host, Cassie. And they gave us
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: these cute little pins. This has been forever ago now,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: it feels like. That's so sweet. I know. And everybody
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: that was there on the set like at the hotel
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: where they were doing the taping, had an Irish accent.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: And I was like, take me with you. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: What a dream. It was incredible. It was like one
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of arguably the best three-hour chunks of my, I think
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: that was at the end of the summer, last summer.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: In the summer, speaking of... In the summer of 1999,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: 42-year-old Mark Dribben lived in Portland and worked the night
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: shift as a cargo handler for United Airlines at the
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Portland International Airport, or PDX, if you're nasty. According to
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: the timeline by the Multnomah County DA's office, Mark was
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: last seen alive on July 1st, 1999, which kind of
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: breaks my heart. I mean, just for the fact that
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: it's like, that's the last time he's seen alive. But also,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I kept hearing the song 1999 in my head. And
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I was like, party life is not... I don't know
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: why it was stuck in my head. And it's... It's
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: like a.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: He was probably anticipating Y2K and stuff.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah. I mean, things... Things were different. Things were wild. Yeah,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: that's sad. I can't believe people literally. I mean, I
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: was a child, so who knows what I would have
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: thought if I had had a fully formed brain. But
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I just it's so funny that people literally thought the
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: whole world we were going to be plunged into dark
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: into the dark ages.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: And I read or watched something about that, though. And
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: apparently it was going to fuck up a lot of stuff.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: And people did have to work really hard to get
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: everything updated.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: That's I feel like I saw like maybe I think
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: there was like a documentary or like kind of a
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: short form piece of content that I watched that kind
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: of same thing. It was explaining like it wasn't that
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: it was like this anticlimactic thing. Like it's kind of
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: like that's how we all view it now in hindsight.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: But there really was like a mad dash to like prepare.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: So that way systems didn't just fall apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: But to think of the apocalypse, my God. Right. What
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: about now? But you didn't think it would look like this, right? Yeah,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: it's a lot darker than I thought it would be.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: The next day, on July 2nd, he called into work
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: requesting that evening off, citing a personal emergency. And that
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: was the last that anyone heard from him. Now, contrary
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to what the DA's timeline says about him last being
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: seen alive on July 1st, there are some accounts that
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: place him at the Eagle Bar in downtown Portland on
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: the night of July 3rd. Okay. So, not necessarily July
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: 1st that he was last seen alive, but according to
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: the official Multnomah County DA timeline, that's what they have.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Even though... Literally in the documentary, you have people talking about,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: you know, investigators that went and interviewed people that had
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: been at the bar that night. The Eagle Bar also
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: have to say it is no longer there. Also, not
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: to be confused with the White Eagle. Okay.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Were the people that said they saw him friends of
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: his or people that knew him or just kind of, oh,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I saw a guy that matched that description?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: You know, it sounds like maybe not necessarily people that
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: knew him super well, but it was definitely a bar
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: where there would have been regulars and they may not
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: have known him super well, but he may have been
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: somebody that they would have recognized. And it sounds like,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: you know, if you have a few accounts, it kind
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: of lends some credence. But then again, maybe that's part
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: of why it's not on the official timeline. I'm not
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: really sure. which is so frustrating. Yeah. A few unusual
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: things happen after that July 3rd evening. The first was
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: that Mark didn't show up to spend the holiday the
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: following day, July 4th, with his family. I feel like
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: if people just don't show up for like a holiday gathering,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, sure, it's not Christmas or Thanksgiving, but who knows?
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe these people really like take the 4th of July
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: super seriously. I just think if somebody doesn't show up
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: for a family gathering, though, that's like red flag number one. Yeah.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I'm reporting you missing. I'm gathering your toothbrush and your hairbrush.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: And somebody can tell me to calm down if they
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: want to. But good luck with that. Yeah.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Unless it was a, oh, I might stop by kind
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: of thing. Like that would definitely raise flags, even flags
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: like Fourth of July.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Because even at Fourth of July that we would have
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: growing up, they were large events, but you still knew
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: who to be on the lookout for. Like you would
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: clock if someone wasn't there.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And I do think just the impression
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that I got and what I gleaned from like kind
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: of summaries of some of the different interviews and things
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: like that that they did, it does sound like it
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: wasn't like it was just a casual, like, oh, maybe
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: I'll stop by. It sounds like this was kind of
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: like a predetermined plan. It was definitely unusual that he
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: didn't show up. Yeah. So, I mean, for what it's worth.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Then on July 5th, his supervisor sends a co-worker over
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: to Mark's house to check on him when he doesn't
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: show up for work, which is another huge red flag.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Unless you're somebody who calls in a lot and then
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: maybe your boss isn't doing jack shit about it when
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: you no call, no show. But this was unusual behavior
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: for Mark, for sure. Good supervisor. I know. We all
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: hope that like the people that are around us in
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: our lives would like have an awareness at least, you know.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying you have to go zero to 60
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: right away like I would. But, you know, show a
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: little concern, maybe keep track and, you know, Just monitor
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: the situation. So missing the family gathering, definitely not like him.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And then neither was not showing up for work. The
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: co-worker reported that everything seemed fine at Mark's home on
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the 3000 block of Northeast 137th, though he didn't actually
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: see Mark when he stopped by. But he's like, I mean...
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: His front door wasn't like wide open. There weren't any
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: broken windows. Nobody was screaming or battered and bloody that
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I could see. Did he knock? Did he ring the bell?
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I have to assume that you're like at
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: least going to try to make contact with the person.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: And who knows, like maybe he's just like, it's July 5th,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: like maybe he's hung over or something, you know? Oh, fair. But.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: He works a night shift, though, too. So if this
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: guy is still hung over from the evening of 4th
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: of July by the time his night shift on the
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: 5th rolls around, like, maybe you should take him to
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a hospital. Yeah. But after the 4th of July holiday,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Mark was reported missing to the Port of Portland police,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: which I had to go back and, like, rewind in
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: the episode a couple of times because I was like,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I'm To the port of the port of the who?
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: It's just too many P's. It's like a Peter picked
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: a pepper situation. And I also like, I think it
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: goes without saying, like, and we see them when we
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: go to the airport. But it was like port of
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Portland police.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Wait, so was it July 5th or July 6th that
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: it was that he was reported officially missing?
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: It was July 6th that he was actually reported missing. Okay. Okay. But, like,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: there were a lot of people checking up on him, like,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and very quickly, all things considered. Like, his family, his workplace,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: they're all like, this isn't like him. Where the hell
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: is Mark? Yeah. But for real, though, where the hell
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: is Mark? Detectives who went to Mark's house found blood
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: on the walls and signs that someone had tried to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: clean it up. Which is not what you want to find.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Blood matching Mark and another unknown male contributor was present because,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: as I've already said, it's always a man. How do
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: they know it's male? I mean, they are able to
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: tell if it's male or female blood in the sample.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think I realized that. Yeah. That's crazy. They
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: also found a number of cigarette butts throughout his home,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: though Mark was a non-smoker. Hmm. Okay. I would argue
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: something like that kind of also, you know, maybe not
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: a full red flag.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's more of like a yellow or a beige flag.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: It also kind of implies that whoever was there with
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: him was there.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: For a while. Right. And I think that's significant too,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: for sure. More were found in his Ford Explorer after
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it was discovered on July 18th by a patrol officer.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: So that's about two weeks after he's first reported missing.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: It had been abandoned in the parking lot of a
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: drug rehabilitation facility at Southeast Division and 43rd Avenue, which
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: investigators came to understand wasn't an area he was known
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: to have any particular reason to frequent. So it wasn't
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: like they were like, oh, right. Remember how Mark was
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: a patient there? Like. And he just, like, that was, like,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: a part of Portland that wasn't kind of part of
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: his normal, like, social or, you know, work routine.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: That's pretty far out there, too.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, and the fact that you find it in
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the parking lot of a rehab facility is kind of
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: also like, huh. Investigators had his vehicle towed for forensics.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: From the cigarette butts, they recovered in both Mark's house
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: and car. investigators were able to obtain a DNA profile.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: At the time, it was an unknown male that didn't
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: produce a hit in CODIS, which is the combined DNA
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: index system, if you're nasty. I knew I had if
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: you're nasty in my notes this time. The previous time
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: when I used it, I was ad-libbing. I knew it
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: was going to come back around. It always does. Charlotte! Charlotte!
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: At the time, investigators were aware that the Eagle Bar
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: was a popular gay hangout. Whatever Mark's own orientation, and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the record doesn't actually tell us, it really doesn't, police
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: began to consider whether his murder might have stemmed from
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a romantic relationship or entanglement gone wrong. And in my mind...
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I kind of edited this out, but in my mind,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: there was a little bit of a joke that I
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: was working. It's not even my joke. It's just I
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: recycled a joke that I kept replaying in this part.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it's the room spinning because of gayness.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: They were like, oh, he might be gay. So like, obviously,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: probably one of his crazed twink lovers probably killed him
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I was going to say, how much
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: did this derail or how much did this keep them
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: from exploring any other avenues? Right. I mean, fair question.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: One of Mark's co-workers, a gay man, briefly became a
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: focus for investigators as they tried to piece together what happened.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: The co-worker was polygraphed and that theory was eventually dismissed.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: But at a certain point, police had basically connected, not connected,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: At a certain point, police had basically collected DNA samples
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: from literally as many people that were like six degrees
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: of separation from him or Kevin Bacon. And they were like,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: all of the people that were close to him, as
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: many samples as they could collect, and they still hadn't
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: found a match. And obviously that co-worker didn't match. So
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: they were like, I guess we have to look at
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: some other theories. Okay, good. Still, Mark's family continued pushing
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: for answers. His father participating in press conferences, and they
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: also offered a reward. But sadly, there would be no
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: resolution for many years. On August 11th of 2000, so
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: this is the following summer, the Oregon State Medical Examiner's
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Office issued a presumptive death certificate, and the homicide investigation
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: went cold. I don't think I've ever heard of a
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: presumptive death certificate being issued quite that quickly. Less than
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a year? Well, a little more than a year. Oh, yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I don't do math. August. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. Even when a family could
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: move forward with a presumptive death certificate. in some cases
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: they choose to hold off. I mean, that's assuming that
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: they don't need a death certificate to be able to
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: settle an estate or, you know, other financial affairs. Right.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: But I mean, Mark's family, just like any other family
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: where it's a missing, you know, or presumed deceased, you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: loved one, they're faced with kind of a heartbreaking and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: truly is a deeply personal decision in that case. And that's,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you know, far from the only one they have to make. Yeah, 100%.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Because part of that is like admitting slash accepting like, okay, well,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: there's no hope here is kind of I imagine how
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that would feel.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it just it really reframes what
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: your thoughts, emotions, your expectations have to be at that point.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're being issued a presumptive death certificate,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: the assumption is that this is no longer about rescuing
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: this person. This is a recovery mission. Yeah. And then,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: like I said, it went cold. And I mean, very,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: very cold for a long, long time. So fast forward,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: like a lot, just press the button all the way down.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Pressing it. Nothing has actual buttons anymore. I was like, oh,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I'm what am I pressing then? Yeah, I'm pressing a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: tape recorder or like a VCR button. And there might
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: be people listening to this that have never seen such
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a gadget. So excuse my old series. Skip. Yeah. In
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: March 2019, PPB's Cold case homicide detail reopened the case
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: and sent the unknown DNA profile to Bodhi Technologies for
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: forensic investigative genetic genealogy. Maybe I should have cut that
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: sentence in half. That's a mouthful. You did that really well.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Why did they open it? I think that based on
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the timeline, That is when we were really starting to
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: see how the genetic genealogy was advancing cases. The Oregon
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: State Police Forensic Services Division then continued its own DNA
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: analysis from the leads that Bodie developed. Eventually, genealogy pointed
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: to the Lovrian brothers, which Lovrian love. You know, it
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. I don't. I don't, there's one of
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: them that I really am not fond of. I will
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: say that. You do not love random. Yeah, I do
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: not love random. It was Chris, Jesse, and Nicholas. They
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: were identified after a relative used a genealogy service. I
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: have to remind myself of that because I'm like, how'd they,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I know it's a genetic genealogy case and I still
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: have to be like, wait, how'd they, how'd they know?
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm like, they didn't have his DNA, so how
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: did they know? Because they had his relative's DNA. That's
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: how it works. Not just a hat rack. I'm trying
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: my best. Having been adopted, Nicholas was quickly eliminated. And
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: then there were two. When law enforcement spoke to Jesse,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: he was cooperative initially, but indicated that he didn't wish
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: to provide a DNA sample. Now, I would say, based
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: on kind of everything that I've read and the interviews
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that I watched of the different law enforcement officers, I
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: would describe him as the squeaky clean brother. And it
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: has been said that he actually said, Jesse said that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: he didn't want to implicate his brother who had some
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: previous interactions with law enforcement. By comparison. Meaning his DNA
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: would come... Sorry, sorry, sorry. He... No, no, no. No,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: like you're connecting the exact dots because I'm like, well, wait, it's... Right?
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: So do the math, right? Because it's down to the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: two of them. We know it's got to be one
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: of you two brothers. And he's basically saying, I don't
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: want to give you my DNA because I think that'll
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: implicate my brother. By process of elimination. Right.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. Chris was also... the only one of the
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: three brothers said to have lived in the area in 1999.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: As a result, in September 2019, Christopher Lovrian was identified
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: as a potential or likely suspect, which feels appropriately cautious
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: at this stage, but... Yeah. Christopher Lovrian was living on
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: a property a short distance from the I-205 corridor. where
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: investigators would later ask the public about unhoused people who
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: may have crossed paths with him and then vanished. Just
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: for super casual reasons, you guys, there's absolutely nothing to
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: see here, underneath the bridge or elsewhere. Law enforcement also
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: began attempting to tail him from his workplace back home. Why,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: you might ask? Well, I should probably first explain that
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: unlike many other states, Oregon requires a search warrant before
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: a suspect or person of interest trash can be collected
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: in what local law enforcement refer to as a trash
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: poll in interviews about the case. Trash anywhere? I mean,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: not trash anywhere. And that's a very astute observation slash question, inquiry,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: if you will. Thank you so much. Yeah. But they
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: can't just go and collect like your personal trash. Gotcha.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: So if they roll up outside your house and they
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: try to collect your trash, they have to have a
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: warrant for that, which I did not know. Okay. We're
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: not the only state, but most states. I think about
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: 35 of them, they can just take whatever they want.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: You put it out on the curb, it's theirs. Their objective, presumably,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to look for any opportunity to collect evidence and or
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: continue to monitor his whereabouts. Because they were definitely feeling like, okay,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll get lucky and we'll collect something and we
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: can get an official confirmation. Or also maybe we should
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: keep an eye on him because what if he runs? Mm-hmm.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Then something they might not have expected happens. I have
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: to assume. It really sounds like they didn't see this
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: one coming, if I'm being honest. Jesse placed a call
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to police suggesting a meeting with them alongside his brother
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: in a public place. The meet was set at the
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Horse Brass Bar. On November 18, 2019, cold case detectives
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: interviewed Chris Lovrian. At the meeting, they asked if either
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: brother would submit to DNA collection and unfortunately both declined.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: But this was something that the team had anticipated and
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: they planned for. So there were three detectives that were
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: stationed nearby waiting for the two brothers to leave so
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: that they could try to collect something from the table
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: for DNA analysis. Is that legal? It surely is. I
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: don't know why that's the difference. I think because it's
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: in a public place and it's also like being disposed
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of by like a third party, presumably. That's so interesting. Okay. Yeah.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Really interesting, right? I'm like, oh God, I could nerd
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: out on that for a while. Yeah. So they collected
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the glass that Chris was using during the meeting and
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: then from the interview, I actually didn't even put this
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: in my notes, but I believe they also collected some
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: napkins that he had been using. Like, they were like,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: leave no stone unturned. Yeah. And all of that was
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: sent to the lab and identified a preliminary match to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the sample from their crime scene. Okay. Here's where it
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: gets really interesting, though, because you're like, they got him.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, kind of, but on April 16th, 2020... PPB
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: executed a court authorized warrant for a direct sample of
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: his DNA. And I have heard of this before, but
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, they sat at the table and
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: watched him. Yeah. And they collected the thing that has
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: his DNA on it. There's still potential for contamination. I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: do think, you know, a confirmation, a direct sampling, if
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: you will, is a good idea. But I was like, damn,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: they got How at that point, though, do you have
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: to go get a warrant for that is, I guess,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: kind of more my question. But yeah, so this would
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: compel Chris to provide a more official sample for confirmation
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: of the DNA result. Because like I said, you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: cross-contamination of some sort is it's always a possibility. Arguably,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: it might even be likely. Yeah, fair. A Multnomah County
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: grand jury indicted Lovrian for Mark Drippen's murder. On April
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: 30th of 2020, right at the height of COVID, I
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: was like... I feel like nothing was going on in
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the legal system. And you know what? I guess I
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: was wrong because they did this damn thing. Good for them. Yeah.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Everything else was like totally stalled. It felt like. I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: feel like there were some things that kind of got
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: pushed through because they're like, listen, if we don't indict him,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: he will be a flight risk. Yeah. That type of thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes they were able to get movement there.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: So that was after the Oregon State Police forensic scientist
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Janelle Moore and Detective McGuire presented information in the case,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: presumably the DNA evidence. In reviewing my notes, I was like,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: it doesn't technically say that they used the DNA evidence
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: at the grand jury, but that's kind of nitpicky, presumably.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: On the morning of May 4th, 2020, he was arrested
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: with the assistance of U.S. Marshals in the 12,000 block
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: of Southeast Foster Road, reportedly as the 52-year-old metal fabricator
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: was preparing to leave for work. I'm like, Are we
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: calling in the U.S. Marshals a lot? I really, I
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: had so many questions about that, but I really couldn't
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: pull at that thread. I was like, I'm almost certain
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that I'm not going to get answers about that, but
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I really want to look into that. Like when and
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: why are we using the U.S. Marshals?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Tell me more. Was that staffing resources because of COVID?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe there was like weird timing.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I just don't think
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: there's necessarily anything about his case and like the arrest
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: in particular that like flags him in my mind is like,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I don't picture them calling in the SWAT team. So
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: it just, I don't know.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Unless they maybe possibly tangentially linked him to other crimes
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: or were they like, maybe this guy could.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, not yet. Okay.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Like, is that maybe warrant the marshals?
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Right. Right. I'll tell you the rest
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: and then it'll make sense why, like, like that thought
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: isn't a bad thought. It just, I felt like I
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: needed like a cork board and the red string and
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: ideally also Charlie Day. When he was arraigned in May 2020,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Mark's father, Ken Driven, and his brother joined by phone
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: and Ken thanked the Portland Police Bureau and everyone in
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: the legal system who had brought the case to that point.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Which I'm like, I can only imagine. It's been 20 years.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Almost 20 years at that point. Like, they have waited
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: a long time. Prior to the genealogy work, police had
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: never looked at Lovrian. He has no connection to this man.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Why would they? It's kind of crazy. Yeah. It feels like, and,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: you know, there's obviously there are ethical considerations with genetic genealogy.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I don't want to discount that. in any way. But
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: like sometimes I get like a little in my head
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: about it. I'm like, oh, it's so freaky. Like I'm
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: rooting for solving cold cases where it's like, wow, they
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: never even looked at this guy. Look at what they
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: were able to do. But I'm like, oh, gosh, I
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: don't know. Part of me goes, oh, scary feels like
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: minority report. I don't know. It's not the same. But
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah. I just have so
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: much anxiety.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Breathe.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I know. I'm like, well, again. Detective Brendan McGuire stressed
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that genealogy only produces leads and detectives still have to
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: build the evidentiary case themselves, which, you know, I mean,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: it's true. They still like it's only going to tell
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: you that someone that matches the sample is guilty. out
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: there like it's gonna give you like a family tree
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to look at and you still have to you know
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of legwork that still goes from there
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: but i would say it's a heck of a leg
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: up chris was a convicted felon and when the detectives
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: searched his house on may 6th they found six firearms
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: uh so two nine millimeter pistols a 40 caliber pistol
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: a 357 revolver and two 223 rifles. In case you
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: were unaware, those are all illegal for him to possess
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: as a felon. That's a big no-no. He's a no. No. So,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: not great. Even if he wasn't their murderer, he would
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: probably still be in some pretty deep doo-doo. Yeah. In
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: the living room and throughout his finished basement, he had
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: numerous Axes, knives, swords, and other edged weapons mounted on
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the walls, including a samurai sword displayed on one of
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: the walls in its sheath. And frankly, I'm just surprised
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: that he kept it in the sheath. Good lord. Yeah,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: it's kind of a lot. I feel like in every
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: other scene of The Walking Dead... they're stumbling upon one
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: of these basements. But I'm like, I really hope that
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the prevalence of them is less than we've been led
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: to believe by TV.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: As a convicted felon, would he be allowed to have
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: the samurai sword if it's like, because you know, there's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: those people that are truly like, they're enthusiasts.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like they're, there's like an art. Listen, this is,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: so dumb of me because, you know, not everything you
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: see on TV is real, but I saw it at
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: a very formative age. And I think it's Con Air
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: where Nicholas Cage, like, beat somebody up so bad. And
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: because he was like, he had such specialized training with
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the military, they classified his body as a deadly weapon. Oh,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: my God. And he was sent to prison. Yeah. That.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound real. Is that real? Well, yes and no.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: There are people that because of their specialized training, the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: bar is different for them, right? Because you should know
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: what is an appropriate amount of force. Some people might
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: say that could be said of police. Like, you know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: maybe deadly isn't the jumping off point. Okay. So question.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: So if you're a convicted felon, but you have such
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: training that your body is considered a, like what, what you,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: what did you say? Weapon or like deadly weapon, deadly weapon.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Does that mean you have, is that death sentence automatically?
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: If you're considered a deadly weapon, you get convicted of
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: a felony.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Well, no, not necessarily. Okay. I think even in the movie,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: and again, you're going off of the memory of someone,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I think, who was under the age of 12. And
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: I've never seen it. Okay. Well, God.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm just like, this is getting out of my list.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I now have a running list of movies that have
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: come up in each episode I've done with you and
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Cassie now.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. I don't know how well it holds
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: up this many years later, but I will say- Again,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: very formative years, very formative film for me, as it
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: turned out.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Maybe we start having a fact check episode where I
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: just address all the things that couldn't be answered.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, honestly. And then everybody can laugh at how
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: many details they got wrong. I got wrong about Con Air,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: you know, that would just be a real laugh track. Okay.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I was just curious about the samurai sword because
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I was just thinking, I'm like, I
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: think about the people that have a shit ton of weapons,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: but they truly are nothing more than like admirers of
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: the craft.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Right. So my understanding of the law around, like, if
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: you have been charged, convicted of a felony, I believed
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: that the ban on you owning weapons only extended to firearms.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: That was my understanding. And Google... says whether a convicted
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: felon can own a samurai sword depends on state law
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: because federal law does not explicitly ban felons from owning
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: non-firearm weapons like swords. Okay. So it literally is just guns.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Good to know. Unless your specific state has banned them
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: from owning those, you know, additional types of weapons.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it can be written into, like, the charges
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: or however, like, after you're released. I'm sure there's circumstances
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: like that. Like, this person cannot own ninja stars. Yeah.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: So, interesting, um, if this case had taken place in Arizona,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: it says, for example, in states like Arizona, possessing a
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: samurai sword as a felon can lead to criminal charges
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: for misconduct involving weapons. There you go. Surprising no one.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: It also says, um, permissive states in other states such
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: as Kentucky. General felon weapon restrictions apply primarily to firearms
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: rather than medieval weaponry or swords, though storage or context
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: such as intent to use still matters. So I guess
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: if it was sheathed, that doesn't show an intent to use, right? Yeah.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: If I'm a lawyer, that's my argument, at least. Totally.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: In Oregon, general sword ownership, general sword ownership is widely legal.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: for non-felons, and state courts have treated samurai swords as
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: dangerous or similar instruments under concealed carry or weapon statutes
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: if carried or intended as a weapon. Felon in possession
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: statutes in Oregon target specific types of spring or force-projected blades,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: but broader prohibitions on possessing dangerous or deadly weapons can
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: still create legal risks depending on the specific terms of probation, parole,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: or local ordinances. So public carry versus home ownership, your jurisdiction,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: all of that plays a role. In case you ever
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: wanted to.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Be with that information, what you will thank us later
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: for providing it to you.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And just know that we only did a cursory
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Google search. So, you know, right. We're not liable for any. Yeah.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: This is not legal advice. Perhaps defer to your counsel. Yeah, definitely.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: That's why you paid them the retainer. You did pay
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: their retainer, right? While in custody awaiting trial, Chris places
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: frequent calls to his family. There was one in particular
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: with his brother Jesse that was reviewed and flagged. Jesse
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: was discussing liquidating Chris's assets to try to fund his defense.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Such a good brother. Chris stated he intended to Okay.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: He's like, you know, you don't have to try that hard.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I think I'll just plea, which is unusual, I would say, probably.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe not what you would expect. right off the bat.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Unless you're worried that a trial will reveal more shit
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: and maybe you're... Or.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe what the evidence that they have is
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: just so ironclad, you know, which I do think, you know,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: they kind of got him dead to rights in this case.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: But when Jesse mentioned the shed on the back end
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: of Chris's property, Chris was adamant that he not enter
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the shed. He's like, nobody goes in the shed. He literally, like,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: they have a recording of it. No, no, no. You
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: might say he Barbra Streisand his shed a little bit.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: He sure did. Detective McGuire would receive a call from
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Chris's attorney within a few days stating that Chris wanted
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the detective to go and open up the shed. So
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't really include this in my notes, but I
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: do know that they were like, uh, what do you
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: think the chances are that he... is maybe trying to
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: play a little game of how many detectives can I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: blow up? Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. So they did. They
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: had to kind of, you know, proceed with caution. But like,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: that's the scariest fucking thing ever. Like if if somebody
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: who is in shale is like, I want you to
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: go to this place after saying no, no, no. I
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: don't think so. What if I had your mom go
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: open it? Like, how would you feel about that?
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, he's telling his brother, don't go in there.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Like, whatever you do. But go ahead, cops.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Maybe he was trying to, like, save his brother. Like, from, like,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: not even, like, bloms. Explosions, bombs.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: If he knew, what was it? Maybe there was something
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: bad in there. Maybe he didn't want his brother there.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: to look at him badly or something.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know. That's sus, though. There's a lot of
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: different justifications for him not wanting his brother to go
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: in there. And at that point, the shed wasn't really
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: on the investigators' radar in the same way that it
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: was after they heard that phone call, obviously. So investigators
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: obtained a search warrant and returned to the property to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: search the shed. And again, I'm like, they had To
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: get another search warrant? Yeah. It's interesting. Like, he's in custody.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Can we just have a search warrant that covers all
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the bases, please? Right.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Like, this is on his property where, like, you believe
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: he has, like, been, you know, living and existing as
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: a murderer for some time. Right. So, at any rate,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: and again, I'm hardly the type to argue for, like,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: less protections for private citizens in um in this case
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: but i'm just like god damn yeah when you look
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: at it from that perspective it's like how do we
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: ever solve any murders like i need a warrant to
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: like open the left cabinet and then one for the
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: right like yeah on may 19th detectives searched the shed
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: which had previously been padlocked upon opening the shed they
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: observed the smell of decomp great Which probably explains the
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: padlock and all of the protestations about no, no, no, no, no.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Don't go in the shed and such. The plastic tote
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: bins inside were sealed with the lids screwed on. And
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: by that I mean literally screws had been driven into
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: the plastic lids. Wow. Okay. So he really didn't want
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: someone to casually open them. I feel like that's two-factor
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: authentication for a shed, which I have not heard of.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: It's concerning. The remains of an African-American man were discovered
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: in the three totes within the shed, camouflaged by a
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: canvas duffel bag and multiple layers of heavy-duty garbage bags.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm just going to say, this was not, could
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: not be Mark Driven as a white man. At this point,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: they begin reviewing more recent missing persons to try to
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: identify the additional victim. It took a couple of days,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: but the dismembered remains were soon confirmed as that of
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Griffin, who lived off Northeast Mallory Street in Northeast Portland.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: The medical examiner ruled Griffin's death a homicide on May
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: 21st after his autopsy revealed extensive trauma to his head
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: and neck. Kenneth Griffin was last seen alive on February
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: 1st of 2020. His mother reported him missing the following day.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: So if you thought in Mark's case, it was zero
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: to 60, like his mom knew right away, like, nope,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: my boy's gone. He's missing. Something's up. I don't like it.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: It was just like, that's so heartbreaking. That was just
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: weeks after detectives sat across from Lovrian at the pub
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: and mere months before the DNA warrant and indictment in
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: the Drippen case. Griffin's brother, Charles Patton, later told the
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: court about watching their mother's heartbreak. She died before the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: case concluded. Oh, that sucks so much. Oh, that's, that's
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: so wrong. Yeah. I mean, things were headed in, you know,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: a positive direction. direction in terms of being able to
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: get justice for him. Yeah. I mean, that's just so unfair.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: That's not where you want to leave things. All of
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: it's unfair. It shouldn't have happened to begin with. Yeah.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: On March 10th, 2021, the grand jury re-indicted Levrian on
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: two counts of second-degree murder, one count of first-degree abuse
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: of a corpse, and six counts of felon in possession
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: of a firearm. So they are going to separate the trials.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: They're going to separate Mark from Kenneth, and then they
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: are going to separate the firearms charges. Which is good, right?
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: That's like... It can be situational, but ultimately it does
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: usually give them the best chance of putting somebody who
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: is arguably just kind of the fucking worst Just giving
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: them like the maximum amount of time. Yeah. Because there's
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: if you go to trial for all of these different crimes,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: like there's just so much more. You have to meet
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: a certain burden, right, for each of the charges, whether
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: they're together or separate or whatever. I just think it's
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: really hard when they're all grouped together. Yeah.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And like worst case scenario, if he was found innocent
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: of the murders and there were the abuse of a corpse,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: he definitely had the firearms as a convicted felon.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do think separating it out
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: in this instance, like I feel like that makes sense,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: especially given like the two murders being so far apart
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: in terms of timeline. I feel like it's too much
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: to try to tie those together. It would be different if,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: He was a super prolific serial killer and we're presenting,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: you know, a landslide of evidence. And maybe we don't
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: get him convicted on one of however many murders. But
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: in this case, it's like we're really just trying to
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: get we're really just trying to get him. Yeah. But
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: that's what it comes down to, because this is not
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: someone that should be walking among us freely. Definitely. Circling
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: back to the May 6th search of Lovrian's home in
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: the attached garage. detectives found heavy-duty rubber mats near the
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: pedestrian door of the garage. According to investigators, testing would
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: later identify blood from Kenneth Griffin on those mats, along
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: with two other unknown profiles. Investigators said evidence from that search,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: along with statements Lovrian made, suggested there are or were...
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: There's more. There are additional victims. Mm-hmm. That's the vibe.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Detective McGuire has said investigators believed there were more than
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: the two we know about, but law enforcement has declined
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: to say how many or to provide additional details, and
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: obviously they typically have good reason to hold certain information back.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: By the FBI's definition, two or more victims killed in
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: separate events, Lovrian arguably already fits the description of a
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: serial killer. Whether there are more victims is a question
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: that so far hasn't been answered. But really, if you
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: think about it, I'm like, especially being that these are
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: so far apart, and let's be real, like, we know
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: there are others. Like, he's a serial killer. Yeah. And
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: we don't need to have any of the in-between, but
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: these two people were killed 20 years apart. Yeah. So
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: what are the chances that he had a super casual
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: 20-year cooling off period. I'll tell you, they're really low.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: I would say probably astronomical chances. And nobody wants that.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: We don't want there to be more victims, but the
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: victims that most certainly in my mind exist, they deserve
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: to have answers in their cases. So, yeah. Police did
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: at one point ask for information about anyone who had
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: been living under the I-205 bridge in southeast Portland between
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: summer 2019 and May 2020 that may have had contact
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: with Lefrian and, you know, maybe also was perhaps missing
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: in the interim. And I think this kind of goes
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: back to, sadly, unhoused individuals can in many cases disappear
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: without anyone filing a report. So a statement that actually
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: directly addresses that as a potential factor in an investigation.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: They're saying like, we believe there are more victims, but
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: we understand that these could be, if this is a
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: factor in the investigation, there could be more victims that like,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: we just, we don't know because nobody's told us. And
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: we like, we don't have any way unless their bodies
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: are discovered or. This is also right at the beginning
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: of COVID. Like, so that's also a messy ass time.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Sure is. And a lot of different types of violent
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: crime saw some spikes. And like a lot of deaths.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming the unhoused population was not immune to the
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: mass destruction that was COVID.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Right. Like health wise. Yeah. But I mean, I just
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the fact that they were
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: very targeted and they were identifying that these could be
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: some potential barriers. to us, you know, having leads in
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: the case. And these are like some things that could
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: present challenges to us identifying, you know, potential victims. I mean,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: that can have a really significant impact. And with any luck,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: hopefully that's drawing in, you know, additional previously unreported tips.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: On January 12th, 2024, ahead of his scheduled trial, Lovrian
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to first-degree manslaughter. in Mark Dribben's death, reduced
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: from second-degree murder under a negotiated agreement, and he was
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: sentenced to 20 years. According to the Oregonian, he apologized,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: but also said he was entirely in protest of the proceedings. Um... Sir,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: how dare you? He claimed he would have won with
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: a private lawyer and told the court it could go
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: to hell. Mm-hmm. Um... Actually, I think we would prefer
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: that you do. But thank you for your input. Coverage
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: in the Oregonian, they have a headline because this is
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: actually a direct quote from the courtroom proceedings. I've got
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Satan in me. Oh. So I do think it would
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: be apropos for, in fact, him to go to hell.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: But Or maybe it was like a genuine invite. It
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: was like, hey, doors always open. I run the show
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: down there.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Come to hell, baby. Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Fuck.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Your name's on the list. And none of any of
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: what I'm about to say hereafter is actually going to
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: make him a more likable character in case you were
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: worried about that. Lovrian's account is interesting. that he was
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: dealing methamphetamines when he met Mark at an adult bookstore.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: He says he went home with him and woke up
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: to unwanted advances from Mark. So I want to say
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: this as clearly as I can. This is the uncorroborated
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: version of events from the man who literally killed him.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: And it actually echoes a very troubling potential defense strategy
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: that is so gross, it makes me want to scream
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: and call the Ghostbusters. It follows a familiar script, and
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: it's typically referred to as the gay panic defense. Yep.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Which has a long history of being used to shift
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: blame to gay victims. Like, well, listen, you're just over
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: there being all gay. And so that made me have
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: feelings that I couldn't handle. thoughts and feelings. And I
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: know I said this previously, but I feel like it's
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: really important to note that reporting does not actually establish
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Mark's sexual orientation or in any way corroborate literally any
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: part of Chris's iteration of this story. Now, I mean,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: he's hanging out in a well-known gay, you know, hangout.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Maybe he was gay. Maybe he was living... Like, it
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: really doesn't matter, though.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: The potential defense, was that initiated by the lawyer? Or
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: do you think that, in reality, Lovrian made some advances
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: on Mark that Mark wasn't wanting?
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: And maybe... I mean... Sorry, it's too much speculation. No,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, that could go any of so many
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: different directions. And the thing is, this wasn't, like, a
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: real defense strategy. Gotcha. There are states where I believe
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: that to this day, our Lord and Savior 2026, where
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: the gay panic defense is still permissible. To my knowledge,
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Oregon is not one of them. And now I feel
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: as though I should be a responsible individual and confirm.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Hold on.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Holy shit. Yeah. Are you seeing that? That's crazy.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: I'll let you speak to that since that's your episode.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: This is your episode. Wow.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I did not realize the timing of that. I assumed
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: it dated back a little further than that. Holy... Wow.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: The timing of this is, like, actually insane. That's crazy. Okay, so...
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: I mentioned... The search of his home dated back to
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: May 6th. He was re-indicted March 2021. As luck would
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: have it, Governor Kate Brown signed Senate Bill 704 into
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: law on May 21st, 2021, making Oregon the 14th Jesus
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: fucking Christ, such a small list, in the U.S. to
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: ban the LGBTQ Q plus panic defense. Oh, wow. I mean,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: that that means overwhelmingly in our country, you can still
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: just say I freaked out because someone was gay and
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: I killed them. And that is a legal defense strategy. Oh,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: my God. That makes me so angry. OK, we have
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: to move on because otherwise I never will. As part
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: of his plea, Lovrian reportedly told prosecutors he buried Mark
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: on Larch Mountain, but he did not give a precise location.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: And there's a couple of problems with that. Number one
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: being that there are multiple locations in this region referred
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: to or identified as Larch Mountain in both Oregon and
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Washington state. great following his conviction he has refused to
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: assist investigators any further in their attempts to locate mark's
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: remains but remember that's probably just because he has satan
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: in him um so i have to assume What I
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: read was that he was really displeased with how particularly
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: they broke out the trials. So the fact that he
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: had three separate trials and he really didn't like that
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: they pursued the weapons charges. In addition, he was very
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: unhappy with being held responsible for his many, many, many crimes.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: World's smallest violin. He said he drove Mark's body out
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: to the woods. and that he would share the location
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: with law enforcement after the trials were finished. But apparently
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: he changed his mind. And to date, Mark's remains have
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: not ever been recovered. My God. So literally, fuck that guy.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: Lovrian's trial for the killing of Kenneth Griffin ran April
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: 8th to the 15th of 2024 before Multnomah County Circuit
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Judge Christopher Bromruss with Chief Deputy D.A. Kirsten Snowden and
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Deputy D.A. Maggie Burgess prosecuting. Lovrian largely represented himself and
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: claimed he was being set up. Mm-hmm. To which, I mean,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: what is your defense? Like, I'm just picturing, like, that, like,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: meme of Brad Pitt. What's in the box? Like, what's
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: in the shed? Like... Yeah. Heller. This also represented a
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: very different story from the one he had told the
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: grand jury when he admitted killing Kenneth Griffin. But he
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: said it was self-defense because, I mean, you know, very
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: unlucky man. But he does just keep finding himself in
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: these situations where he does have to defend his life
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: to the death. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. I know. It's wild.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: It's wild. Before we get into Chris's account of precisely
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: what he says happened, I wanted to share a little
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: bit of background on this particular victim, on Kenneth Griffin.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: He was born in Mississippi and later moved to Portland
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: with his mother in 1977. I believe that was in
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: the heyday of the Portland Trailblazers, so good for him.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: He played football and participated in wrestling while attending Roosevelt
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: High School. After graduation, he remained very physically active, competing
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: in weightlifting and winning trophies for his efforts. So, muscly.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: He had briefly experienced homelessness, but at the time of
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: his disappearance, he was living amicably and relatively settled with roommates,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: by all accounts. Um, And I think the only reason
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: why I feel like I'm very like protective of like
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: this little nugget of like his case details is like
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: he's a black man. And his part of the case,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like he's the most recent confirmed victim. And
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: I feel like in a lot of the articles and
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: different source material that I was reviewing, I feel like
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I'm really having to dig a little bit deeper for
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: some of the details about him other than the really
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: horrific ones. Yeah. Because those ones are really easy to find, unfortunately.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: So this is Lovrian's account. And again, nothing corroborates it
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: because I think he just is a fucking liar and
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: obviously a monster. But Chris said they struck up a
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: conversation after meeting at a bar. Kenneth was interested in
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: some dogs that he had at the time. I think
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: apparently he had a dog that had just had puppies.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: You know, spay your pets in honor of Bob. Come on.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: Chris stated he gave Kenneth his credit card to order
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: the two of them some pizza. Kenneth ordered the pizza,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: but according to Chris, didn't return the credit card, which
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: led to an altercation where he kicked Kenneth out of
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: his house. Which I feel like if somebody tried to
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: steal my credit card after I've so kindly ordered them pizza,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: I might have a similar response. Yeah. You know, if
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: that were actually true. Chris continued drinking at his home
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: and awoke some hours later to his dogs barking and
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: realized that Kenneth had returned. Which feels like kind of
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: a hard left turn. You already kicked him out of
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: your house and now he's coming back, but Poor Kay. Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: For why? Just my opinion. He says that a further
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: physical altercation occurred and he killed Kenneth. According to Chris,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: he shot him with a bow. Reporting indicates a crossbow,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: but the interviews that I saw with law enforcement indicate
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: a compound bow. Neither would feel very good. That was
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: before striking him with a hatchet or an axe. Apparently,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: it's really difficult to identify different types of similar weapons.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: According to the autopsy, however, no puncture wounds were identified
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: on Kenneth's body. Which is like, so what is that?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Just a weird fucking flex that you're trying to say you, like,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: shot him with a bow, but there's literally no puncture wounds? Or, or, or,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: are you saying that you shot at him but made
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: zero contact? Oh, yeah.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: At first I was like, oh, he's just like telling
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: the story.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: He's delusional. But right. I mean, that makes sense, too.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, two things can be true. I don't know.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Just not his story. Yeah. I just. Yeah. No, literally.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that part. I mean, all of it
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: matters from the perspective of like, I feel like we
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: owe the respect to the victim to understand what happened
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: to them. I don't say it lightly in that respect.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: But I feel like what's so much more important is
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: kind of how the rest of some of this shakes out.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: And I feel like there are other things that matter
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: so much more. And I don't need to understand how
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: the worst day of somebody's life occurred and how their
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: body was brutalized to, you know, like, yeah, that piece
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: of it is like, that's not important to me. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I want to show respect for them and, like, be
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: as accurate as I can on those things. But it's just,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking. And it really, like, that piece of it
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But, like, why would you lie about that? Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: Because I think after we do the autopsy, we're going
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: to be able to tell. Like, that's not how this works.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: That's not how any of this works. Chris said he
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: left Kenneth's body there at his home for a few days.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: before returning and dismembering his body. And that part is
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: the part that really bothers me. And it's like the
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Israel keys of it. I just feel like there's something
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: so callous about just like leaving someone for days and
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: then you're coming back and you're like, you're almost like
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: treating this person as like an inanimate object. And I
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: feel like, to me, that parallel. And I'm not saying
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: he is, anything like israel keys in any way i
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: certainly don't have enough to make any sort of a
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: like real meaningful comparison but that is the part that
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: really makes my blood run cold like there's more i
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: think there are you know like we know that there
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: are more than likely at least two other victims based
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: on the blood sampling that they've done in his home.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: To be able to just say i'll deal with it
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: later right yeah You're used to that and you're wired
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: a certain way.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Right. I do think it speaks to a certain disposition,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: certain mentality that I don't ever want to understand.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: For obvious reasons. A few days later, he purchased the
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: totes and Kenneth's remains were moved out to the shed
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: where investigators would later discover them. He said he intended
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: to dump the totes in the river. Obviously, there is
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: more than one river in the area, but to me,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: if you say that somebody in Portland is planning to
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: dump a body in the river, I am assuming the
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: Willamette may be the Columbia. Yeah. On April 15th, the
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: jury convicted him of second-degree murder and first-degree abuse of
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: a corpse, which, I mean, that feels about right. On
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: April 26th, the judge sentenced Lovrian to life in prison
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: with the Griffin sentences running consecutively to the driven manslaughter term.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: So as a result, he won't be eligible to apply
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: for parole until he has served at least 46 years.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: That's what that means. I feel like, and I know
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that struggles with this, but,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: you know, when you say life, you know, okay, well, like,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: how about you just tell me the number of years?
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: Define life. Yeah. Prosecutors told the court that by Lovrian's
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: own grand jury testimony, he waited about three days before
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: he began dismembering Griffin. Charles Patton, his brother, addressed the court,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: calling what was done to his brother an evil act
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: and said, Kenneth's memory will live on through us. Lovrian,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: who had frequently proved combative throughout the proceedings, said nothing
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: as the sentence was handed down, which is perhaps the
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: only kindness that we could dare to dream. Mm-hmm. Though...
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Nothing can bring their loved ones back. Hopefully the resolution,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: at least of the legal proceedings, brought a measure of
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: peace to both victims' families. They have requested privacy and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: no media contact since the DA first announced the charges
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: in 2021. So they have, you know, remained private. And
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: I'm honestly surprised sometimes that we don't see more requests
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: from victims' family members. you know, asking for like, like,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: please don't contact us. Like the process of your grief is,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's so complicated and it's long lasting. I'm
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: surprised at that sometimes, but yeah. Lieutenant Chuck Rulig, the
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: cold case supervisor said investigators discovered a letter dated in May, 2000.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: It was from Ken Driven. So Mark's father, it had
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: Chris Lovrian's name, two phone numbers, and if they had
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: run his name and pulled his old address, one of
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: them was in the 4100 block of Division. According to him,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: it was about 100 feet away from where Mark's car
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: was discovered. Ken, Mark's father, said he'd found it in
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: Mark's home and he turned it over to police in
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: case it might prove useful in their investigation.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: And.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: Chuck Grulich, this is a direct quote. I don't know
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: how you can say these words without your voice cracking, without,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try. This was solvable 20 years ago.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: If someone had run that name, they would have made
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: the connection and there would have been something to move on.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing. It's like, it's this random handwritten note
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: that you find in someone's home. His dad's like, I
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: have no idea who this is. I'm going to turn
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: it over to the police. My son is missing, presumed dead.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: He has no idea if this has any evidentiary value.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: There's no way for him to know, especially back then.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: And they did a lot of things. I mean, they
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: were really pushing hard to try to identify a suspect
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: because they had a DNA profile. And they did eventually
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: get their man through DNA. But they had his name
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: and his phone number. And if they'd run it, they
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: would have. He had literally lived right there.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: But like, I'm like, if this is a video game,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: that letter, you're hanging on to that letter and you're
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: following it.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: Like that is like, what the fuck? What the fuck?
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: I know. I feel like this is one of those
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: situations where I'm like, you know what? I can tell
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: that they didn't sit on their asses and I can
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: tell that they made a lot of efforts. Yeah. I
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: will say this is an interesting observation about, you know,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: there's DNA evidence. So did we maybe let that skew
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: our perception of other potential evidence? And I mean, my God,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: nobody's perfect. And, you know, I don't want to shit
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: on these people that clearly work so hard on the
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: case and, And they got him. They got him. Yeah.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: A couple murders could have been saved.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: Right. Like, maybe some murders didn't need to happen, though.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just mad. I'm not blaming anyone, but I'm mad because, like,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: I follow that letter. I don't know. It's so hard because...
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: And you're right.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: With the DNA stuff, like, it's like, at a certain point,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: you do start to maybe see what you want to see.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: Or it's like, well, we have the DNA, so why
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: would we need to, like, look at these tertiary things that,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: And they did a ton of interviews. And, you know,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: they talked to so many different people. And so this
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: one handwritten note that was in his house, like, that
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: just didn't really have any significance at that point. It's like...
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time blaming them too much for
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: how that all shook out. But at the same time,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: the idea that they had this information all along and
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: were unaware is just so frustrating. And I feel like
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: as an outsider, and I have to imagine as investigators,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: my God. Oh, yeah. Can you imagine? And it's a
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: rough note. So I don't want to end on that.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: But I'll be honest, what I am going to end
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: on aside from the tarot isn't really much better because
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: the Portland police are still interested in any tips. I
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: think for obvious reasons. We'll include contacts for the Portland
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: Police Bureau as well as Crime Stoppers of Oregon if
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: you believe you may have information in the case. There's
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: a really good chance that someone out there has information
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: for a case that they just maybe don't even realize exists. Oh, fuck.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: I know. But I felt like, you know, this is
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: an important one. Like I said, other than the fact that,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: you know, this is a case that I'd already talked
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: about and I was excited to tell everybody that, you know,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: I did a thing. I was like, this is a
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: case where there's like a very real possibility that, you know,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: people might have information that they should be sharing. And
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: I can't say that there are for sure two other victims,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: but the fact that there are two other unknown profiles,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: I really hope that they get some answers for what
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: I suspect are two more victims. Yeah. Should we tarot
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: about it? God, please. Yeah. You're like, please. Yeah, I know.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: You know, we started doing that because we kind of
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: just we just we wanted to um but it's like
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: it turns out it is a really good way for
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: us to kind of like try to process yeah process
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: and like kind of do our best to like end
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: things on like a better note and yeah this is
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: the one that i got on the queen mary so
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: we'll use this one okay shuffle sounds Okay, so I
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: will spread these out in front of the keyboard. So
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: then my question is, do you have a thought about
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: a number on a 10 keypad or on a standard
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: size keyboard, like a letter that feels like the vibe?
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is a very unique way of asking this.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: Is it because of the size? And that's how it's
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: like fitting.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: I just always spread it out in front of the keyboard.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: And because we're not in person, it's like an easy
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: way for us to be like, intuitively, where do I
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: feel like our card is? It's either JK or L. Okay.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I think maybe K. Okay. I was feeling in the L. Okay. Okay.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: I'm going to pull the one in the K because
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: that's in the middle. But I'm not positive. I don't know.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: I felt L too. But if you're feeling like it
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: could be J, K, or L, K splits the difference. Yeah,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: that's true. Okay. I get very pragmatic about these things.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: About tarot? Yes, obviously. I take it very seriously. And
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: then also, oh my God. Okay. So can you see
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: that at all? Three of cups. Okay, and three of
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: cups is kind of not really what I would have
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: expected us to draw, but I'm going to keep an
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: open mind. Keywords are celebration, fulfillment, friendship, community, happiness, and fun. Okay,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: maybe we're on to something, though. It says, a positive card.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: It suggests you have something to celebrate, perhaps a relationship
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: or the success of a project. If you consider three
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: trials to be a project of sorts, the upright three
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: says you're enjoying a good time with people you care
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: about and admire. You think of this as the cheers card.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: It can also indicate expressing love, inspiration, and creativity with
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: a community of like-minded people. The common bond between you
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: fills your cups, and brings blessings to you all. In
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: a reading about money, the three says you can profit
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: from a collective undertaking. It shows you reaping rewards from
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: an investment made with other people. If the reading is
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: about your job, the upright three assures good fortune from
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: a group effort. You feel joyful and fulfilled with the results.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: It's time to celebrate your success. In a reading about love,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: this card can represent a marriage. It shows you celebrating
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: your love and extending affection beyond your primary partnership to
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: include friends, community, and kindred spirits. I mean, the fact
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: that it's a community, like, that's part of, like, the
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: key words. I'm going to say something. Yeah.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is accidentally my card about the
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: podcast and joining the podcast.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Because this is the vibe I've been having. Yeah.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: And I feel like it might be it. I was like,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: it's a three. Okay. That's so funny. Cause I was like,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: it's fun. It's feeling good.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at like, for me, like there's a big
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: shift with like my life right now because of work.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: Cause I think this might be about us. I feel like,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm just hoping that that, that one part about
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: it shows you reaping rewards. Yeah. Go ahead and say
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: it louder. Yeah. People in the back reaping rewards. Yeah. No,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: that is exactly what I was thinking. And I was like,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: I do feel like, I mean, for obvious reasons, sometimes
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: the cards, while there's like a tie in with like
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: what we're actually talking about in the episode, I do
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: feel like sometimes it's like also partially just like picking
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: up a vibe from us because, you know, we're the
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: ones picking the cards and such.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, this is funny. Okay, so there's an extra
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: excerpt and it's just reaffirming the vibe of us, for sure.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: Greek mythology speaks of three goddesses of joy, charm, and
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: beauty known as the Graces. Obviously. The Three of Cups
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: remind us of the famous painting Primavera by the Renaissance
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: Italian painter Sandro Botticelli. which shows these three beautiful young
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: deities dancing together. Primavera sounds so good right now. I was,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: oh my God, I was like, wasn't I literally just
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: talking about how I made a soup that's basically like
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: a lasagna? Yeah, I've been wanting Italian ever since. Oh
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: my God. Okay, so, all right. So I feel like
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: the responsible thing would probably be just to see what
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: the L word was. Yeah, I agree. Okay, that does,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: based on the depiction, appear to be more in line
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: with what I might have expected. It's in the reverse.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: I gotta say that before.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's see. Eight of Swords in reverse. But yeah,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: the imagery to me is definitely more fitting.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: So we needed both of these, obviously. The Eight of Swords. Entrapment. Self-undoing. Fear. Helplessness. bondage, denial,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: and deception. In many decks, the Eight of Swords shows
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: a person bound and blindfolded, ringed by a prison of swords.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: Because swords represent thoughts and beliefs, this card says you've
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: created your own prison with your ideas, and only you
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: can free yourself. Or perhaps you can't because you belong there. Yeah.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: So in the reverse, it says to break through the
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: barrier you've built, you must change the way you see
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: and do things. Sometimes this means rejecting social norms or
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: going against the status quo. You also need to get
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: focused and get moving. Perhaps you have your head in
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: the clouds. The reversed eight warns you to get your
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: affairs in order or the situation could worsen. And it did. Yeah.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: And rightfully so. Oh, my God. You're going to die.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: This is this is the beginning. We're going to go
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: to the middle and then you're going to die. OK. OK, thanks. Great.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: I know. I mean, like, LOL. In a reading about money,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: this card says you may not be dealing forthrightly with
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: a financial problem. If you've been putting off paying your taxes,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: for example, or settling a legal matter. Take care of
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: it promptly to avoid more trouble. Sometimes this eight indicates
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: bad advice or deception. Fucking perfect. Listen, I just, I
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: just pull the cards. Okay. If the reading is about
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: your job, the reversed eight tells you to stop playing
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: the victim. You may feel persecuted, trapped, or limited in
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: your work, but you must take responsibility for where you're
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: at and do something about it. Unless you belong exactly
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: where you are, which is prison. Oh my God. But
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: literally like playing the victim. Yeah. Oh, he stole my
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: credit card. I've been framed. Yeah.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, he like made unwanted advances. Like genuinely playing the victim.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. In a reading about love,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: you may feel tied to a person, perhaps because you're
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: afraid to be alone or unwilling to support yourself. This
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: card can mean you're not facing up to what's really
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: going on. If you've been listening to someone else's advice,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: the time has come to listen to your inner guidance.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: I think it may be too late, like in this
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: very specific instance. But if somebody else needed to hear
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: that today, you're welcome. I mean, a literal prison of swords. Oh,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad we pulled that one. Oh, my God.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: And swords. The samurai sword. Oh, shit. Stop. Yes. I
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: forgot about that whole spiral three hours later. Oh, my God. Yeah.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we pulled that one. That was so perfect.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: Unless you're in a prison of swords of your own making.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: Or buying samurai swords to hang on your creepy ass wall.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: I know. Seriously. Keep it in the sheath, my dude. Perfect. Hi, Taylin. Hi, Cassie. What? Hi, Caitlin.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: I told you I'm fried. I did two episodes with
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: just Cassie.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, say it confidently next time.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I just went on autopilot. Jesus took the wheel and
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: he failed me. I'm so embarrassed. I thought for a
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: second that you could, like... I was like, is this
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: is she on? And you guys are pranking me. I'm
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: so sorry. Let's take that again.