Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jack Coyer about his choice of The Witchfinders

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Talks to Jack Coyer about his choice of The Witchfinders · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  Welcome back to Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who
• 0:41
  Witchcraft Commentary Podcast. Now I've heard stirrings, you
• 0:48
  know amongst the ham fam that there may be a witch about.
• 0:53
  I anoint you Jack Koya as my witch Finder general to sniff
• 0:58
  out these evil heathens and let me know we'll have them
• 1:02
  executed. What do you think?
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  I think I had my list of names of someone.
• 1:09
  Really. I won't name but George, if
• 1:13
  you're missing at home, you might want to do what most
• 1:17
  sensible people do and avoid this podcast for a very long
• 1:21
  time. Start running.
• 1:22
  Yeah, because Jack's coming for you.
• 1:24
  All right. You can just give us a couple of
• 1:25
  initials, could you by the chance?
• 1:29
  A/B CD2 of them EF, E. Excuse me, you just said FG.
• 1:39
  So you're saying Fraser Gregory is a witch?
• 1:44
  Well, I mean, is it a coincidence that he's the hands
• 1:47
  to contribute to whose names he has consecutive initials in the
• 1:51
  alphabet? Well, paranoid sort of person.
• 1:56
  The fact that he calls himself Champion of the damned exactly
• 2:01
  as well. Gregory starts with GG is the
• 2:05
  7th letter of the alphabet and as we've learned from everyone's
• 2:09
  favorite Doctor Who story, which world the Gregory family are
• 2:15
  clearly the seven sons of seven sons.
• 2:18
  So, you know, I'm sure there's some witchcraft in that he's.
• 2:22
  Very fond of that story, The Happiness Patrol as well, you
• 2:24
  know, which is a very subversive story.
• 2:28
  So I think he may have subversive leanings.
• 2:31
  Yeah. I think we found our man Jack.
• 2:35
  Burn him. Burn him, yes.
• 2:39
  That may be a small. Clue as to what?
• 2:41
  To talk about today. No, I would have started there
• 2:48
  with my God, we. Go go pick that carrier bag up,
• 2:52
  for God's sakes. London to the supermarket and
• 2:57
  they've been tackled by us. Give me a go.
• 3:00
  Man, Jack, that man. Boy, oh boy.
• 3:02
  Anyway, sorry, let's not get off piece already.
• 3:06
  Yes, now we're here to fulfil another part of our doctor
• 3:11
  journey. Obviously we've most of the
• 3:13
  times we've been together had been trying to take off
• 3:18
  different doctors, different eras and looking at what they
• 3:22
  have to contribute to the grand 60 year journey of Doctor Who.
• 3:26
  You know, because taking different parts of the show and
• 3:30
  looking at what they bring to the equation, it's an
• 3:34
  interesting way of finding out what the overall secret of
• 3:38
  Doctor Who's power is, really. And so we've on our solo trips
• 3:45
  together have sort of been alternating periods of torture
• 3:51
  for both of us, obviously. Aye, forced.
• 3:54
  You for you. Stephen Moffatt episodes Amy's
• 3:58
  Choice You we're posted back by my last time unless and then I I
• 4:05
  doubled down and fired back at you with some more Stephen
• 4:09
  Moffat. Not just any Stephen Moffat, but
• 4:12
  obviously Lost Christmas is a Stephen Moffat script.
• 4:17
  Best Christmas special of all time, I think.
• 4:19
  I agree. I'm forced you to compliment,
• 4:27
  steal them off her and obviously Clara Oswald.
• 4:29
  Yeah. You did some great work that
• 4:32
  day. And then you thought Clara
• 4:35
  Oswald, why don't I hop to my favorite, favorite Doctor story
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  featuring Clara Oswald, the target mobilisation of the witch
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  finders, where of course, will I mean, we don't have the deleted
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  scene in this episode where Gemma Coleman and maybe Williams
• 4:55
  turn up and and will that joins them flying in the top.
• 4:59
  But we're here now at the Christian era, obviously an era
• 5:06
  which is quite, you know, receives polarising opinions
• 5:10
  within the fandom in general and obviously within the hamster
• 5:16
  community in microcosm I do. Say that I think every period of
• 5:23
  new who has received sort of polarising opinions within the
• 5:30
  hamster community, the people that have talked on hamster is
• 5:32
  there's a there's a lot of love and a lot of, I don't want to
• 5:36
  say hate because that's a strong word, dislike for each of those
• 5:39
  eras. Certainly as I've been doing
• 5:41
  this strictly, it's sort of been coming from both directions.
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  So I think the new series there just isn't that Sheen of
• 5:47
  nostalgic love. So I think any of these eras are
• 5:51
  game for people to take pot shots at in the new series.
• 5:55
  Yeah. But I think the reaction to this
• 5:58
  year that is probably a bit more vitriolic them and we've got to
• 6:04
  2025 Doctor Who. I think a lot of the negative
• 6:09
  family action is a bit weary and a bit more, well, of course,
• 6:14
  this is where we've ended up sort of thing.
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  Whereas I think a lot of the negativity can come out into
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  quite uncomfortable ways in them when discussing with you.
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  So I thought, OK, I don't like coming on here to trash talk
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  things. You know, Timeless has been
• 6:36
  dealt with by enough of adoptive fan community, but I feel like
• 6:40
  it's almost a so bad, it's good sort of humiliation ritual to to
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  engage in discussions around Timeless.
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  You know, it's sort of fun to beat up on it in a weird way.
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  But with your fear, I was determined because the way that
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  I like, and there are quite a few of them.
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  And I was going down the list and going, yeah, demons were a
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  Punjab. No, you know, OK, it takes you
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  away. Bravely standing up for his
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  favorite era of the show by picking episodes that we all
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  like already. You know, in the same way that
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  someone could come on and go, I'm going to stand up for
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  Stephen Moffat by talking about Heaven's Sin, you know?
• 7:29
  Well, everyone likes that one already.
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  Go talk. About.
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  I don't like that one. Yeah, go talk about the weather
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  of the song or something. You know, let's talk about
• 7:38
  Legend of the Sea Devils. Is it going to stand up for this
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  year? That was John Arnold that stood
• 7:43
  up for Legend of the Sea. Devils brave a man than I but so
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  I was determined to find something that I like that
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  hadn't been disgusted possible and I was quite surprised to
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  find it. But this one hadn't received
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  much attention and I think it's series 11 is possibly my
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  favorite opportunity series is. I know that's not the popular
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  opinion, but I like the tonal differences in a lot of the
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  different stories. Obviously this story is setting
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  out its stall with very particular tonal genre
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  signifies, but yeah, I like different week to week.
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  You know, this back-to-back with it Takes you Away or, you know,
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  Mr. Anglican London going into the demons of upon Job or
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  whatever. And yeah, I like the way that
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  Series 11 sets out it's stool. And yeah, I quite wanted to talk
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  about this one as an exploration of what makes the kid Malira
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  different from some of the others.
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  I mean, I think there is a lot of things in this episode that
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  are signifiers of the Christiano era, but I also think that the
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  three seasons he put out are markedly different from each
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  other. I think this this season is a
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  lot about sort of atmosphere, ambience and gentle character
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  exploration. Next year is sort of a big
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  mythos arc and basically a huge love letter to RTD one I think.
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  And then his last series, I think is just playing to most of
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  his strengths as you know, those sort of broad strengths, you
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  know, Flux is is long form storytelling and it's probably
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  as Saturday night Doctor Who as we've ever had, you know,
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  massive set pieces, a fast pace, a huge epic sweep to it.
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  So I think wherever you land, whatever episode you would have
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  chosen had it been 11-12 or thirteen, I think it would have
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  been a different flavour of chippers.
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  But I am really pleased you chose this season and this
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  episode in particular, because if this season is about ambience
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  and atmosphere, fuck me, the Witch Finders has got it in
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  space, hasn't it? Yeah, I think it does.
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  And that's something that when they were announcing these
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  stories and what what direction are we going to go in, I
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  thought, oh, you know, first female doctor.
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  Obviously for those of us who are not yet aware that Christine
• 10:35
  Moira has a female doctor. And I thought, wouldn't it be
• 10:40
  great if they could do, I don't know if they could fit it on
• 10:44
  Saturday night to find Doctor Who, but why?
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  They could do a witch trial episode and female the Doctor,
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  the mysterious troubler who knows more than they should, is
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  now a woman. So you know which trials might
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  be something that seem like a pretty good fit.
• 11:03
  And then when they mount the list of stories, obviously that
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  came up and it was great. And they fixed the dilemma of
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  how do we make this a Saturday tea time episode by just not
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  broadcasting it on Saturday tea time, but you know, by the end
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  of Sunday, something like ITV drama slot.
• 11:24
  And yeah, I, I think it's a good, it's a suggestion that
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  that Christian or Dave have an eye on what he wanted to do with
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  his character, you know, understanding the significance
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  of this change and push him a lot of the storytelling around
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  it, rather than just we've we've got a woman, you know, you're
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  you're male, you're the James Bond for nerves.
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  You know, you go, fantasy is now being played by a woman.
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  Now, you know, it's not just that, it's we are understanding
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  the consequences of this change that we've made, not just at a
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  meta level for the audience, but also for that character and the
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  worlds that they are navigating. The irony then, that this female
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  doctor that's thrown into our laps gets the ultimate Bondy and
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  pastiche next season where she's put in a tux and thrown into a
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  casino and on a motorbike shooting guns and.
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  Yeah, yeah. So it's like, hey, isn't that
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  isn't that different? It's.
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  Irresistible. I think the name's Doctor.
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  The Doctor. The Doctor.
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  Well, look, there's a couple. Of things because I think this
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  is going to fly by this episode these 45 minute ones always do
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  so there's a couple of things I would like to address with you
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  before we go in if that's OK I mean I certainly think the
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  historicals in the Chris Chipnall era are as close to the
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  classic here classic hero historicals from the heart no
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  era as we're ever going to get in the new series certainly in
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  series 11 with Rosa demons of the Punjab and the witch
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  finders. I think the pace is a little
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  slower. They are very stylishly
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  executed. They are interested in history
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  in a way that I don't think you know, Unicorn and the Wasp and
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  Let's Kill Hitler and even the Shakespeare Code and that lot
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  were. They're interested in genuinely
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  educating you, in moving you with what's happened in history,
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  sometimes shocking you as well. Certainly when Prem gets shot in
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  Demons of the Punjab, when Rosa's dragged off that bus and
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  then people literally chained to ducking stools and drowns in a
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  lake. I mean, it happened.
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  It's it's horrific and it's right there on the screen for us
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  to see. I think as well, they're
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  probably as close to sort of prestige Sunday night drama as
• 14:03
  we're ever going to get in Doctor Who as well.
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  These historicals in 11. Do you think that was a good
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  approach? I think that something kind of
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  had to give with the historicals.
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  Obviously we've so a lot of historicals together, I think
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  throughout all all chats, I think most of them have probably
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  had some sort of element of them of them in.
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  And I think one of the reasons why I like talking about them so
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  much, I guess not only because they're sometimes a bit
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  neglected within the general Wiver fandom, but also I think
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  their society's attitude towards history and even the maker of
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  what can be represented, let alone who's doing the
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  representation changes a lot throughout the years.
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  You know, I think that, you know, you could put the
• 15:02
  surrounder conundrum, you could give that to David Whitaker and
• 15:07
  David Lambert may probably make something like that or the robot
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  revolution or what you know that that sort of retrofuturism
• 15:17
  little problem monsters running my mum spaceship space
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  corridors, you know, that sort of thing could probably get
• 15:26
  taken back in time. But I don't think you could get,
• 15:31
  I mean, possibly we're shut a Porsche, but not Rosa Parks or
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  well, I mean, literally not Rosa Parks because I don't know that
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  happened yet by the time, but obviously it started.
• 15:42
  But demons of the Punjab, for example as well.
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  I just don't think that attitude towards history and historical
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  storytelling could be could be taken back then because it's
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  just not how they were thinking and not even in the sense of
• 16:00
  obviously stuff like the crusade or Talons using John Bennett.
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  And you know, I'm not even talking on that level.
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  I just don't think. I'd want to ever be educated
• 16:11
  about India by people from 1963. No, when, when it's still quite
• 16:17
  flesh in people's minds. You know, I'm sure if they try
• 16:21
  to do a story about the partition of India by people
• 16:24
  who, you know, in that period of show, you probably have people
• 16:28
  whose families were still directly involved in that, in
• 16:31
  that period, you know, by man. So I think they'll be a little
• 16:35
  bit more difficult to pull off, but.
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  Jack it's the it's the the danger of history.
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  I think that's captured really well in Harnell's time.
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  You know, the Barbara, you know, when that Elokae soldiers are
• 16:49
  coming after her, you know, not too dissimilar to them running
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  away at the end of Demons and a Punjab.
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  You know, history is coming for you and it's fucking ugly and
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  they're going to kill you. So just get out of there and so
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  that sort of thing and just and just focusing on the the details
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  of the setting and the characters and and just the
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  details of like the historical events as well.
• 17:11
  I think there are parallels. I think there are be that period
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  show the whole novel stuff, particularly if the early stuff,
• 17:20
  you know, something like but the the idea being that, you know,
• 17:25
  the past is a different world, you know, which obviously in
• 17:29
  something like in my mercy child 100,000 BC stuff.
• 17:33
  Well, you know, Zoar and Carl and the old old mother.
• 17:38
  They could just be alien creatures rather than, you know,
• 17:42
  cave people from a particular prehistorical period.
• 17:46
  Whereas in the series 11 historicals, and we'll get more
• 17:50
  into it as we go, all very much no, this is our world.
• 17:56
  And that's why it's so impactful because these are forces that
• 18:00
  have been with us in the in the recent history, you know, in the
• 18:06
  last 100 years or a couple of I think it's maybe 300 to 400
• 18:11
  years in this example. You know, these are
• 18:16
  circumstances and and prejudices and ideas, but have been
• 18:22
  resonant with us within our within our recent past, you
• 18:27
  know, man's inhumanity to man or the in this case, man's
• 18:34
  inhumanity to woman, still quite prevalent ideas.
• 18:39
  And yeah, I just don't think the show would be in its early days
• 18:47
  would really take that sort of attitude to it, I guess.
• 18:52
  You know, we we mixed gestures would be this things like the
• 18:58
  remembrance of the dialects. You know what, there no, no
• 19:02
  blacks, no dogs, no Irish or whatever.
• 19:04
  No, there's no colours. That's it.
• 19:06
  Stuff like that. And perhaps or colonial
• 19:11
  attitudes and stuff like coast like perhaps, you know, but
• 19:16
  some, I don't know if the show in its classic form was ever
• 19:21
  quite ready for history to be tackled by this.
• 19:26
  Partly because the likes of Sydney Newman lost out on the no
• 19:32
  Buggard monsters debate and obviously that is always,
• 19:37
  perhaps always going to be with us.
• 19:39
  But partly because I just don't think those storytellers were
• 19:44
  ready to accept the likes of Mallory Blackman from A Patel,
• 19:50
  to evoke him into the folds, to tell these stories that clearly
• 19:54
  mean a lot to them. It is a huge strength of this
• 19:58
  era, but Chris Chibnill brought in so many.
• 20:03
  People of colour and women to write and direct these episodes.
• 20:09
  I think you get a different flavour of Doctor Who when that
• 20:12
  happens and we'll go into that a bit with this because this is
• 20:15
  written and directed by a woman and that is very unusual.
• 20:21
  Extremely. Well, I mean, it's the women
• 20:22
  that they're called. I mean, we're called
• 20:24
  enlightenment. And then we've got this.
• 20:26
  The men Rosa don't know about the future.
• 20:29
  Rosa is haunting a villa, dear Darte.
• 20:32
  Well, there you go. That's three for free in my
• 20:34
  block. So, you know, get give him sack
• 20:37
  Russell T Davies, sack Phil Collins, them keep Julie
• 20:41
  Gardner. That's right, yes.
• 20:43
  That's right, get Ouija board and bring back Barry Lambert.
• 20:46
  Keep Jimmy Gardner, keep James and Sack, Russell T Davies and
• 20:51
  Phil Collins. I'm sure I've solved it.
• 20:53
  I'm sure you want to press play at one point, but I do have two
• 20:55
  other things to ask you about. And one is the witch hunts
• 20:59
  themselves. Because whilst it absolutely
• 21:02
  seems like something horrific that happened in the past, I
• 21:07
  think this is very much here in the present.
• 21:10
  But we're not using ducking stools anymore.
• 21:13
  We're using social media or, you know, other other methods in
• 21:19
  order to, to go after people to take little things that they
• 21:23
  said, little gestures or to take against somebody that maybe is
• 21:26
  just a bit more important than you and bring them down.
• 21:29
  A pig or two or all of the reasons why the witch hunts were
• 21:33
  happening back then. It's all in fact, I think it's
• 21:37
  probably worse now and the grudges that people can have and
• 21:42
  the power games, you know, and how viciously you can go on the
• 21:47
  attack and bring somebody down. I just think it's really
• 21:51
  interesting that, you know, this is clearly a lesson this episode
• 21:56
  of the fruitlessness of sort of whipping up paranoia and the
• 22:00
  people that it hurts. But it's it's so it's it's so
• 22:06
  now it's so contemporary as well.
• 22:09
  And I really like that that they've chosen something that we
• 22:12
  can absolutely parallel with with this day and age.
• 22:15
  Yeah, definitely. I think we have stuff like The
• 22:20
  Crucible that's very much, you know, of this period.
• 22:26
  We obviously had every Doctor Who fans, second favorite
• 22:30
  television programme inside #9 obviously did the did an episode
• 22:36
  of The Trial of Elizabeth Gadge, which is very much about that
• 22:40
  sort of thing. Sure.
• 22:41
  It's inside number 9. I thought it was Blake 7 or
• 22:44
  sapphire and Steel. No, I'd love to see what I play
• 22:49
  7 now. Which?
• 22:51
  Oh God no, please. It'll be the most miserable
• 22:58
  quarry you've ever seen. Yeah, Lancashire been reduced to
• 23:04
  Dustin. Is trying people for crimes
• 23:11
  against the Federation. Yeah, he is a rogue telepath.
• 23:17
  Yeah, he probably is. Yeah, sure.
• 23:21
  Well, my last question to you is, and it's about sexism and
• 23:26
  the Doctor because I it is in the episode, but there's lots to
• 23:30
  talk about when we're watching the episode.
• 23:31
  And I think they've waited a certain amount of time to
• 23:37
  examine the female doctor in a historical setting.
• 23:44
  And I think this was probably the right amount of time to
• 23:46
  wait. And I think it's given the right
• 23:49
  amount of weight within the episode.
• 23:51
  I don't think it should dominate, but I do think it
• 23:53
  should be there. What do you think?
• 23:55
  Well, yeah, I think we it's been in all three historicals.
• 24:00
  I would say obviously in those of that immediate sense of
• 24:06
  distrust in the idea of Graham being set up as her husband or
• 24:11
  her emails of the person who react.
• 24:13
  You want to look out of Graham, which I think is perhaps why
• 24:18
  Chris Chipmel has that character in there to, to be that sort of
• 24:25
  a middleman. Every, every man you know, in
• 24:29
  both a positive sense and a negative sense.
• 24:34
  You know what, if every man, you know, we have to have this
• 24:38
  person who we, the audience for the polite society can look at
• 24:45
  and go, oh, yes, Graham, he's probably all right.
• 24:47
  We'll ask him questions about what's going.
• 24:50
  He must be the one that is for which if I'm a general or
• 24:53
  whatever, which is an interesting additional sort of
• 24:57
  slightly darker layer of making sure that character is in there
• 25:03
  even with, you know, John Bishop, I suppose, kind of
• 25:06
  fulfilling the same function. But oh, yeah.
• 25:11
  In Demons of the Punjab, she is obviously, of course, segregated
• 25:16
  with, with the hours into doing this of Hen Knight, whatever
• 25:20
  festivities. Yeah.
• 25:24
  Oh, I must have. What's the line?
• 25:26
  She has a good line which I've forgotten about.
• 25:29
  Imagine. Capaldi given.
• 25:30
  That wedding speech, Jack? Can you imagine it, Capaldi,
• 25:34
  given that wedding speech, You know you love him.
• 25:37
  Do you love him? They're sickness now.
• 25:39
  Piss off. Love is a cancer which must be
• 25:42
  rooted out. Unless you've got 26 years on
• 25:47
  beryllium and then you'll be all right.
• 25:50
  And then they'll walk in on their wedding night.
• 25:52
  They'll go, I name you the bonus.
• 25:55
  I mean the bonus. Indeed.
• 26:01
  But yeah, so in those stories, because they are darker by
• 26:06
  comparison, I think you make the point for the doctors femininity
• 26:12
  a bit lighter. You know, she hangs out with the
• 26:16
  girls and you know, isn't it jolly James?
• 26:20
  But the Graham gets mistaken for her sort of superior, whereas
• 26:26
  here is perhaps a bit sometimes it's a bit of a lighter episode
• 26:31
  in tone, or at least the least dark episode by comparison,
• 26:35
  probably. So we're going to meet and but
• 26:39
  we are now heading towards the end of the series and we've
• 26:43
  obviously spoken about, you know, we've covered on this show
• 26:47
  different episodes from different parts of the series
• 26:52
  run. So, you know, something might be
• 26:54
  unquiet dead, but we did, which is obviously very much a baby's
• 26:58
  first historical because it's the first knew whoever won This
• 27:03
  is quite later in the series. So there's a sense of up the
• 27:08
  threat of this war on the feminine, which is obviously a
• 27:14
  lot of what the rich father about the war on the air, you
• 27:18
  know, sanctity of Christian brotherhood being, you know,
• 27:23
  defiled by feminine Wilds. And I think King James has the
• 27:28
  Lyme in here where he says, you know, you have an irresistible
• 27:32
  meat show or whatever the Lyme is.
• 27:35
  No. Are you talking about your your
• 27:36
  innate use of gossip and scandal or something like?
• 27:41
  That yeah, then he has a different Lyme, which says
• 27:45
  something like irresistible figure or something to that
• 27:49
  effect when they're when they're in the forest.
• 27:53
  That's what I think there is that that is ultimately one of
• 27:57
  the roots causes of these witch falls because of course, you
• 28:01
  know, spoiler alert, there are no witches in the real world
• 28:05
  presumably. So that idea of weapon I'm
• 28:11
  seeing against semonymity is quite a big sweat in this
• 28:18
  episode. And yeah, it's time to solve up
• 28:23
  the stakes of Memo. The Doctor's life is really
• 28:27
  going to be different now or there.
• 28:30
  A woman. And that comes with good points,
• 28:32
  but that also comes with moments of danger.
• 28:36
  And, you know, we have to be ready to face those threats when
• 28:40
  they come. You know the doctor, the 13th
• 28:44
  doctor might be in less danger from your but the thing or the
• 28:49
  Kaplan man than she is from the average human.
• 28:54
  But in history, really just. Because she's a woman.
• 28:56
  I mean, the book makes that abundantly clear.
• 28:59
  There's a wonderful bit in the 13th Doctor's head when she
• 29:02
  realises this form that I'm in means whatever move I make in
• 29:07
  this time period, I'm in danger and she feels fear.
• 29:12
  It's really great. Anyway, we'll talk a bit a bit a
• 29:15
  bit more about that book later. Well, there's certainly lots
• 29:17
  happening here, Jack. I mean, we haven't even pressed
• 29:19
  play yet. And, you know, we've already
• 29:20
  talked politics, you know, contemporary dangers, sexism,
• 29:25
  history. I know.
• 29:27
  I mean, we haven't even got to I'm at you because we, we have
• 29:32
  been putting off this discussion for quite a few months now.
• 29:37
  Well, I'll blame. Stephen B for.
• 29:39
  That I'll blame Stephen B because he's been, you know,
• 29:41
  pulling us off in other. Directions.
• 29:43
  Pardon. You know what I mean?
• 29:45
  How well? He's.
• 29:46
  Pretty Jack, you know we wouldn't objects.
• 29:49
  But so I've actually had time to collate a few questions from
• 29:54
  other members of the ham firm, which I can hopefully spread
• 29:59
  throughout which. I didn't see that.
• 30:02
  Well, no, that's because I have other ways of talking to other
• 30:06
  human beings that don't involve going through you just.
• 30:10
  Outrageous. That's it.
• 30:13
  Fam fam, I think he might be a witch.
• 30:19
  Now, some members of the Ham fam might not remember asking me
• 30:22
  these questions because I asked them about 10-9 or ten months
• 30:27
  ago or however long it was that we were originally meant to be.
• 30:31
  So if you hear your name accompany to one of these
• 30:35
  questions and you're quite shocked, don't don't be alarmed.
• 30:39
  We did in fact, had these conversations nine months ago.
• 30:43
  When? It was real questions.
• 30:46
  I might have still been talking to half of these people nine
• 30:48
  months ago. It'd be interesting to see who's
• 30:50
  in. There.
• 30:50
  Oh, twelve. Yeah.
• 30:51
  I might have saved some of these names.
• 30:54
  I'll be like this one is from grave, Frederie.
• 31:00
  Who asked? He's a witch.
• 31:03
  He's a witch. I think we should press play,
• 31:06
  but I'm going to say one last thing to you before we go in.
• 31:08
  And there's always one last thing, isn't there?
• 31:10
  There's always one. Last Yeah, usually it's me
• 31:13
  asking you out on a date or something like that, but I'm
• 31:15
  going to do that this time. This time it's going to be me
• 31:17
  saying, excuse me, that would be the best date you've ever had in
• 31:21
  your life. All right, I will treat you like
• 31:23
  a Prince. Thank you, I feel grateful.
• 31:30
  No, what I was going to say was you just made a very outrageous
• 31:34
  declaration there that witches do not exist.
• 31:37
  I suggest you speak to Olive Hawthorn.
• 31:39
  All right. The White Witch of Devil's End
• 31:41
  and her successor, Lucy McCall, the White Witch of Habsome of
• 31:47
  Blood. Penn Life.
• 31:49
  Well, I'm not sure if the message women to take away from
• 31:52
  the demons is that Olive Hawthorn is correct about her
• 31:56
  everything, rather that she's, you know, an engaging character
• 32:01
  which someone like Lucy can spin off into wonderful novels of her
• 32:06
  own. But I don't know if even Lucy's
• 32:09
  thesis is actually Olive was completely correct about the
• 32:14
  labour the world works, but. All you need to know, Lucy, is
• 32:18
  when the witch hunt starts, alright?
• 32:20
  Given you're the one person that can put spills on us, you're the
• 32:23
  one person we won't be coming after, alright?
• 32:27
  It'll be everybody else. Everyone else will be you could
• 32:30
  we can't burn Lucy. She's the one token female
• 32:34
  member of the Ham fam. Excuse me, this. 1.
• 32:37
  Where's Joe Short in this conversation?
• 32:40
  O2 Blimey. I know.
• 32:42
  Yeah, I know. But have you seen half the
• 32:44
  blokes on this? I mean, I wouldn't call them men
• 32:47
  exactly. Now, given the topics of this
• 32:50
  episode, I won't get into how the gender signifies the various
• 32:58
  members of the Ham Fam. I'll I'll leave that to Joe.
• 33:02
  Come on now, I'm starting. This.
• 33:03
  Excuse me. All I'll say is I like talking
• 33:07
  to pretty men, all right? That is, it's just a thing.
• 33:13
  I'll shut you off at it. Yeah, I didn't know where to go
• 33:17
  from. Well, should we press play?
• 33:19
  That we might need to do that. Yeah, OK.
• 33:21
  Yeah, but incidentally, Lucy, I love you.
• 33:24
  All right. Although if you want to put a
• 33:29
  hex on Jack Koya, then please go ahead.
• 33:34
  I might be cursed to be here forever.
• 33:38
  You're living hell. An endless commentary.
• 33:42
  Yeah. So we're here today to talk
• 33:45
  about yeah. Yeah, it's the Time Lash one as
• 33:50
  well. Yeah, open, open, Yeah.
• 33:53
  So on this 400 female Timelash, what can we learn from?
• 34:00
  There if there was a story I have to watch over and over
• 34:02
  again, like I think of worse ones, yeah, more boring ones
• 34:07
  maybe. Do you want to count as soon?
• 34:10
  Thank God in Let's all get one step closer to the end of this
• 34:16
  recording in 21-GO. Have you always been this much
• 34:25
  of A sarky bitch, or is it something I'll bring out in you?
• 34:29
  I'm normally quieter, but perhaps no less.
• 34:33
  I keep these thoughts in. Myself, I say, I'll bring the
• 34:36
  best out in your Jack or the bitchy side of you.
• 34:39
  So we get really good. One of the best versions of the
• 34:43
  theme tune in my opinion. You're not the kid you.
• 34:47
  Know the one yeah be the middle 8 and the big bass drop and and
• 34:54
  so no pre titles do we think could be done with one.
• 34:59
  Well, I think it probably could. Had a pretty good one actually,
• 35:01
  but I do like how this sort of sweeps in with the kids running
• 35:05
  and sets this sort of this autumnal atmosphere.
• 35:10
  Yeah, I mean, there's some really good moments of direction
• 35:12
  here, but more great close arts and then duck jangles and
• 35:17
  things. Facetious note, can I just say I
• 35:20
  think Whitaker's hair in 11 is the best her hair ever was?
• 35:24
  Yeah, she gets quite obviously being dunked.
• 35:27
  She has a little wet sweep. Oh it.
• 35:31
  Happens in War of the Sontarans as well because it's raining the
• 35:33
  whole episode. Yeah, well, her hair is quite
• 35:36
  dry now. Bear it in mind.
• 35:38
  She's just done the man well, Bob and quite again, I I love to
• 35:47
  be a great camera work, but also a lot of really nice muted
• 35:52
  colour colour palette. Obviously we're on location
• 35:57
  really great sort of misty air. There's no, you know, new Earth
• 36:02
  where they're like, you know, the wind is helming against
• 36:05
  their faces. As Rose says, what a great date
• 36:08
  we're going on, you know I. Love all of the the sort of the
• 36:13
  dry trees. You know, you keep getting shots
• 36:16
  of tree. Look here now, King James
• 36:18
  looking around the tree with that horrible horror mask on his
• 36:21
  face. I mean, you just get atmosphere
• 36:23
  just from that, don't you? Yeah, it's a really great visual
• 36:28
  palette for this episode and I think it sets us in quite
• 36:32
  nicely. Very more muted than.
• 36:34
  Usual Jack Pardon. Is it more muted than usual?
• 36:37
  The colour palette. Yeah.
• 36:39
  I mean, it's a sort of grey misty day where not much
• 36:43
  pleasant is happening. So, you know, it makes sense.
• 36:47
  It can't be the sort of, it's a lot sunnier in, you know, the
• 36:51
  image of Punjab because we're meant to be in India or it's
• 36:55
  different from the sort of wacky kablam factory that we've had
• 37:00
  obviously the week before. I think women chained to that
• 37:06
  ugly, ugly ducking stool. It's such a potent image, isn't
• 37:10
  it? Yeah, she's really good.
• 37:12
  She's got a great and I don't mean Mr. sound offensive to his
• 37:16
  Abscess, but she absolutely looks like a great.
• 37:22
  You know, this could be a witch. Element character.
• 37:25
  Yeah. And there's no, you know, I
• 37:27
  think sometimes you have to look the part as well as being a good
• 37:31
  performer. And I think she really does that
• 37:34
  really well. Obviously, we've had a great
• 37:38
  we're about to have a great contradiction with the Doctor
• 37:41
  where the doctor's just done the you can't interfere with
• 37:45
  history, not one line bit and then immediately jumps in
• 37:48
  starting field history. She.
• 37:50
  Does it again, and dear daughter, she goes, you will
• 37:53
  not. Get them writing Frankenstein in
• 37:55
  this house, all right. And two scenes later she goes,
• 37:58
  Shouldn't you be writing a book? And to me, guys, I think, I
• 38:01
  think we need to make some allusions to Frankenstein in
• 38:05
  this narrative. Do you mind getting on with it?
• 38:09
  But yeah, you know, you see that moment where the doctor is
• 38:13
  thinking, OK, you know, I have to do something.
• 38:16
  You can't just let in the middle of people die.
• 38:20
  But people say she's not doctorish.
• 38:21
  I mean, she's just jumped straight in trying to save this
• 38:24
  bloody woman. Yeah, and her hair, that's what
• 38:26
  we put here. Now, what's she meant to me?
• 38:28
  And that's what probably Dunk. She was freezing Jack.
• 38:33
  There's a documentary feature on this.
• 38:35
  And she was so she was like shaking and they had to sort of
• 38:39
  try and warm her up to say her lines.
• 38:43
  But yeah, I I think obviously this is a great stand off with
• 38:49
  Becca Savage, whose name escapes me and I'm going to be a bit
• 38:54
  annoyed, but I don't remember what I mean.
• 38:55
  What the actress Yeah, Siobhan Siobhan from Downton Abbey will
• 39:00
  say. Yeah, sure.
• 39:01
  And I think it's she's really great in the sense of she is one
• 39:07
  of those Sunday night ITV tournament actresses.
• 39:10
  You know, she's the sort of person who will show up in a
• 39:13
  Downton Abbey or I've been clocking off.
• 39:16
  She's in that, you know, she's the sort of person who would
• 39:19
  expect in this time slot to be in the.
• 39:22
  Same breath. She knows she's playing the
• 39:25
  Doctor Who episode, so she sort of growls and spits her in a
• 39:31
  really scary way. I think she's scarier than any
• 39:33
  monster this year. Probably, yeah, She might be the
• 39:37
  scariest. I mean, she's scarier than she's
• 39:40
  probably scarier than even the demons of a Punjab villains.
• 39:45
  It's the sort of thing I thought we were going to get was we've
• 39:47
  got to be great female villains going up against a female
• 39:50
  Doctor. And they do do it a couple of
• 39:52
  times, but I think this might be their best in terms of the two
• 39:55
  actors going up against each other, Whittaker and Siobhan.
• 39:58
  It's really that's there's palpable chemistry there.
• 40:03
  Yeah, and I think we also miss the great gag when she gets out
• 40:07
  the psychic paper and goes, you know which, I'm a general and
• 40:11
  she has that wonderful expression of Yeah, sure, yeah,
• 40:14
  I'm always fun. But where do you say?
• 40:17
  You see that that that shot looking up at the tree and all
• 40:20
  the creaking noises and at the same time, second Akanola, one
• 40:24
  of his best scores for 11. Definitely.
• 40:26
  I mean, he's got. Strings coming in isn't he all
• 40:29
  the time? Yeah, obviously I don't like
• 40:31
  engaging in the whole Murray Gold versus Sega Makanella
• 40:35
  thing. I think they're both very good
• 40:36
  and they both have their uses. I don't often engage in the
• 40:41
  Murray Gold versus Sega Makanella debate.
• 40:44
  I think they're both very good and they both have their
• 40:46
  strengths. But if you compare this to
• 40:48
  something like Skyfall, which I believe it's Spyfall, sorry, who
• 40:54
  could have made that mistake? Spiful 2 very different tasks.
• 40:59
  I think he males both of those very different atmospheres.
• 41:03
  So whilst we're laying out the stakes of what's happening in
• 41:06
  the story, Boylehurst, Clag not being on the map, so on
• 41:09
  etcetera. I think that some it's there's
• 41:14
  some really great violins and some great theme transition
• 41:18
  stings. I really think he's shown his
• 41:21
  he's worth in this story. So we're now separating Yaz,
• 41:25
  who's going off to find weather, and we're about to be missed by
• 41:31
  the special guest star of the week.
• 41:33
  I mean, I think we've already acknowledged.
• 41:35
  Special guest star of the week here is Siobhan from downtown.
• 41:38
  Abbey, oh Siobhan Simmerman. So let's just say her back.
• 41:41
  Top of my head. Is about to arrive, although I
• 41:44
  mean as soon as Alan Cummings in the room.
• 41:46
  It's the only person I could possibly look at.
• 41:50
  It is magic in this. Yes, I'm sure you've been a lot
• 41:54
  of backing up in this time. But so obviously we're now in
• 42:00
  this sort of nice state to the home, which is this also a
• 42:05
  location. Yeah, that's not what's.
• 42:10
  Saying is. It that they talk about the
• 42:11
  King's James Bible, don't they? And then he comes.
• 42:14
  In on that and goes hello. Yeah, now this is really
• 42:18
  distracting. So it starts with the touch
• 42:21
  angle zoom in and then it comes to other characters and then it
• 42:25
  goes back to the zoom. It makes me feel a little bit
• 42:30
  queasy. It's very destroying.
• 42:31
  But why did you can't just do that when 1 go?
• 42:35
  I do love the angle though. I like it when it goes.
• 42:38
  What is it? Forgive the mask, but I have
• 42:42
  enemies everywhere and I love the theatre of it as well.
• 42:48
  Yeah, my yeah, it's very disoying.
• 42:51
  They should've just done that in one in one shot.
• 42:54
  I rather like that was his line. I.
• 42:58
  AM having a slightly comical edge to King James even though
• 43:03
  he gets some serious scenes, was a bang on instinct because it
• 43:08
  means there is a heightened level of entertainment when he's
• 43:11
  around in a very dark, very creepy episode.
• 43:15
  Yeah, well, I'll throw you a couple of King James question
• 43:19
  now, Christian number one from Mr. Dan Hollingsworth, Alan
• 43:24
  Cummin. Where does he rank on Joe's top
• 43:27
  camp villains? Oh, hi.
• 43:29
  He's up there with like, Bennick Saldeed.
• 43:33
  Yeah, he's pretty high, you know.
• 43:35
  Particularly for me who obviously there's not intense to
• 43:38
  go in that direction. Not really camping.
• 43:40
  Really. No, I, you know, when he comes
• 43:42
  on to Ryan and goes my Nubian Prince, you know, he's very
• 43:45
  camping. Bing Bing, Bing.
• 43:49
  Unfortunately, Joe, you've not only have I requested questions
• 43:54
  from the Ham fam, I also said how long do you think it'll be
• 43:59
  before Joe inevitably makes a reference to Ryan being the King
• 44:03
  James movie? So apologies to the following
• 44:08
  members of the Ham fam who have unfortunately lost out.
• 44:12
  This is John Arnold, Rob Brown, Stephen B, Jim Allen, B Lloyd,
• 44:17
  Brendan Jones, Lucy McCall, Matt Michael, Mark Dobbik, Sam
• 44:22
  Hollingsworth, Dylan Beach, David Maskell and Frazer.
• 44:26
  Quickly and sigh heart commiserations but
• 44:29
  congratulations for our women today.
• 44:32
  Mr. Gareth Bowley, he says that you would you win, not a lot,
• 44:38
  but our appreciation and the sad knowledge.
• 44:41
  But you know Joe Ford better than the rest of us.
• 44:45
  That's right. But.
• 44:45
  I mean, have you seen Toast and Cole?
• 44:47
  Come on now. Oh and a bonus point to Mark,
• 44:50
  Mr. Mark Dodic who said I also think that Joe will mention how
• 44:54
  fuckable Toast and Cole is. So congratulations to Mark as
• 44:58
  well. You also win that point.
• 45:01
  Why is that predictable? Well, according to the following
• 45:05
  a dozen or so names that I read out.
• 45:08
  I think did people say that I would mention how phallic that
• 45:11
  tentacle is whipping out at the ground.
• 45:14
  No, I don't even think the hands, hands minds are reaching
• 45:17
  in that direction. But yes, this is another really
• 45:21
  great moment for Sega. Nakalova score goes crazy in the
• 45:25
  scene. And yeah, so the cut to Yas,
• 45:28
  obviously the only survivor of the whole Jovi era, our history,
• 45:34
  a really great subplot for her because it remembers that she
• 45:39
  used to be a police officer. I think we make a specific
• 45:42
  reference to family liaison. And I think this is really what
• 45:46
  I want from me as character, someone who in my mind, the
• 45:51
  ideal Jodie's story would have, yes, being the first one
• 45:56
  bursting out the TARDIS, you know, pen and paper in hand,
• 46:00
  asking questions, taking names, putting pieces of the puzzle
• 46:04
  together and really helping to solve the mystery.
• 46:08
  That's what I kind of want from the.
• 46:09
  Survivors of the Flux, haven't you?
• 46:11
  When she's basically the Doctor with her two.
• 46:13
  Companions and obviously when the Doctor joins, yes, that's
• 46:16
  maybe even more apparent in the latest theme, but obviously
• 46:21
  right now so yeah, it's now chewing it out.
• 46:25
  Put them again. Ryan almost axed her to death
• 46:28
  there. Exactly, which is quite a change
• 46:31
  from him sort of crushing on her and the woman who fell to her.
• 46:36
  You know, I really like as well that Yaz talks about the school
• 46:39
  bully Izzy Flint. She makes a contemporary issue
• 46:42
  and and explicitly says this happens now, but in the book
• 46:48
  Joy. Wilkinson.
• 46:49
  Oh, boy, she goes how Izzy Flint used to say, oh, you stink.
• 46:53
  Oh, you're not from around here. And it's really strong language
• 46:57
  that Joy Wilkinson uses to explain just how what a vile
• 47:01
  bully Izzy Flint was. I also think as well that could
• 47:05
  be linked to can you hear me when Yaz goes up to the hills
• 47:09
  and there's a suggestion that at one point she was possibly
• 47:12
  suicidal. But I think there's more
• 47:15
  happening with Yas across the era than people say.
• 47:19
  So, yeah, we obviously have Ryan doing this.
• 47:24
  You, you have to get King James to stay here by any means
• 47:28
  necessary, Ryan. Your pricker.
• 47:32
  Please show me your pricker. Can you show me your but which
• 47:37
  is? I think people sometimes accuse
• 47:39
  the kid in a little bit, I don't know, stoic and worthy.
• 47:44
  And I think this is quite a nice change of pace for it to say no,
• 47:48
  We can, you know, in place for working as the Doctor Who just
• 47:53
  like any other. I think it's a nice change of
• 47:55
  pace. In the book that she explicitly
• 47:59
  says that in his box of tricks there there are body parts and
• 48:03
  there is a inference that he has a penis inside.
• 48:08
  Yeah. Again, that's in the book
• 48:11
  because it can't be in me. No, although the pricker line is
• 48:15
  quite a double ontologr isn't. It well, yes, I mean King James.
• 48:19
  This has had the line A2, which does not believe if her mark is
• 48:24
  picked. Would sound a little bit perhaps
• 48:26
  suggestive of different kinds of, I don't know.
• 48:31
  But there's some great kinky lines, you know, in the Chibnow
• 48:34
  era, don't you remember in Orphan 55 when she goes?
• 48:37
  I've just pulled this out of my friend and the girl the the.
• 48:41
  Rat woman goes well we don't judge people here on all from
• 48:43
  55. South see Liam and claims of
• 48:53
  failing to do what the doctors are asking them and being quite
• 48:57
  unsuccessful at keeping Queen James in place.
• 49:02
  I have no idea why they're not wearing historical costumes.
• 49:06
  They do wear them in the second series, but they don't do it at
• 49:09
  all in the first series. Yeah, they sort of do a little
• 49:12
  bit of the Season 19 and kind of wear similar outfits throughout
• 49:16
  the whole year here. I think it works because they're
• 49:20
  not aiming for this village. They've come here by accident.
• 49:24
  They've made a bad time to go through this in the year.
• 49:26
  One thing that the book does extremely well is truly stress
• 49:30
  the relationships between Willa and Becca and Mother Twiston.
• 49:34
  Yeah. And I think the episode, it
• 49:37
  doesn't have the time to explore it as as much as you would want
• 49:41
  it to, because it goes to some really dark places in the book.
• 49:43
  The suggestion that that Becca murdered her own mother
• 49:47
  inadvertently. She had no clue that she did it.
• 49:49
  But Mother Twiston knows that she she put her own mum to death
• 49:53
  and that she was actually her mother was just.
• 49:57
  Grandmother. They're cousins, which, yeah,
• 49:59
  well, it's just explained them in the subtitles.
• 50:04
  But there's enough there to suggest, isn't there?
• 50:06
  That there's sort of class things in play here That Becca
• 50:09
  looks down on her. Yeah, because just stalk as
• 50:13
  well. That's it.
• 50:14
  Standing on Becca married a. Was he a poster or a male or
• 50:19
  something? If he was some position higher
• 50:22
  up position I can. Just do with 15 more minutes
• 50:25
  Jack to have some of this stuff in there.
• 50:28
  Yeah, and obviously she's dressed clearly of a very
• 50:31
  different, you know, social slaughter to how Becca and how
• 50:36
  how Willow and my grandmother were were dressed.
• 50:40
  But I think Graham's modern Bay clothing makes his witch find
• 50:45
  the hat funny up by comparison because.
• 50:48
  It's it off, doesn't it? Yeah, stumped on top of his
• 50:51
  head. You said a very pertinent
• 50:54
  question. Now, are you a good woman,
• 50:56
  Mistress Savage? Yeah, because that obviously
• 51:01
  we're getting into that a lot. The idea of, you know, the
• 51:05
  sanctimoniousness of the whole thing, which is obviously tied
• 51:09
  up into Purifanism, tied up into Beverly, just fervour.
• 51:13
  You know, even horses are being banned from, you know, boilers,
• 51:17
  clag, never mind which 12. And this is really great, this
• 51:22
  pairing a doctor in the house, which obviously we're going to
• 51:26
  get in the next couple of years. But they do this in the front
• 51:30
  they come up from as well. I think there's another one that
• 51:33
  pairs them up, but here, because we've had this reference to the
• 51:38
  family liaison aspect, the Doctor is coming in almost as
• 51:42
  her superior in the same way as when Yaz would do her police
• 51:47
  training, she would have a superior following her around.
• 51:53
  The Doctor is her boss in this way, and obviously that gets
• 51:59
  literalised in Once Upon Time. Obviously Toby went to go for
• 52:03
  literally turning to her boss from the in the police station
• 52:08
  in the police car. And I think this is giving me as
• 52:12
  the confidence to ask those questions and to to to open up
• 52:18
  about her own personal experience, which the doctor
• 52:21
  uses later with with Becca. I like as well.
• 52:26
  I do like how Joy Wilkinson makes all of the female
• 52:30
  characters in this story. Obviously, it's the women that
• 52:33
  are persecuted, but they are the most powerful characters in
• 52:36
  this. But in one way or another,
• 52:38
  they're all victims. Yeah.
• 52:40
  The Doctor's a victim of the sexism of the time.
• 52:43
  Yaz has been a victim of Izzy Flint, the bully.
• 52:47
  Willa here is a victim of Becca's, you know, stirring up
• 52:51
  the paranoia against her. Becca is a victim of the
• 52:54
  Morack's infection that she's got inside of her.
• 52:57
  Yeah, and here we have Tosin Cole, who was a victim of being
• 53:03
  forced to do a shepherd accent that he can't do, so he can't
• 53:08
  really speak the lines properly. But obviously Alan Cummins,
• 53:13
  famous Hollywood actor, it's difficult to to to put him in
• 53:18
  scenes with someone with that calibre.
• 53:21
  This is obviously for those of you who might not remember Ryan
• 53:25
  was thought of the narrative thrust of series 11 and after
• 53:31
  that was obviously about his journey.
• 53:33
  So here we're having him relate to Queen James about his
• 53:38
  experience with his family. Obviously very, very different
• 53:42
  kind of family up with him, but one that, you know, feeling
• 53:47
  abandoned by those around you, feeling that you've been put in
• 53:51
  charge. You know, King James mentions
• 53:54
  his his regions and him away. Graham is Ryan's regions, you
• 54:00
  know, someone who's not related to him but has been foisted upon
• 54:05
  him and as you know, is making sure he does what he's told and
• 54:09
  being a good boy, a bit like what King James will have
• 54:13
  experienced in his. You know, it's great as well,
• 54:16
  though there's no hint of gay panic from Ryan.
• 54:20
  He is exploiting the fact that the King fancies him and he's
• 54:24
  doing his best to. Try and stop.
• 54:26
  You know, the, the, the, the, the killings happening.
• 54:29
  I mean, there was a wonderful, I always love it when they punch
• 54:32
  Ryan's masculinity. So he's, he's sort of listing
• 54:35
  out what's happened to him. And then the king lists out what
• 54:37
  happened to his mum and and. Ryan just sort of goes.
• 54:41
  Like. Little scream of like, OK, yeah,
• 54:44
  you win. And here we have the big, big
• 54:52
  monsters about to reveal themselves, obviously.
• 54:58
  And yes. And, well, I see it before JB
• 55:02
  sees it, because back is to the yeah, if back is to the
• 55:06
  monsters. If this is, if this is a folk
• 55:09
  horror, Jack, I think these are some of the best folk horror
• 55:13
  monsters we've ever had in Doctor Who.
• 55:15
  Yeah, I think it's very. Recently, aren't they?
• 55:20
  Yeah, yeah. And obviously we have the
• 55:22
  grandmother looking pretty convincing, pretty good in that,
• 55:28
  in that alien makeup. And like we said, because they
• 55:32
  are mud monsters, it's a pretty simple concept that it's quite,
• 55:37
  it's quite easy to pull off, you know, make these people look
• 55:42
  like they're decomposing a mud versions of themselves.
• 55:47
  You know it's not. Oh, in a minute.
• 55:48
  Now telling Jim. She grabs that glass vial and
• 55:51
  she just eats the mud and just like smears all the glass into
• 55:54
  her mouth, doesn't she? It's really horrible.
• 55:57
  And look at how all this is silhouetted with the sun as
• 55:59
  well. The direction is so good here.
• 56:01
  Yes, very immersive and I think it speaks to be important for
• 56:08
  going out on the occasion. Obviously, all three historical.
• 56:11
  Species No RTD 2. Well, who?
• 56:15
  I mean, Cardiff can be anywhere really.
• 56:20
  They try. I do think you're right.
• 56:22
  A lot of the new era, I try not to rag on it too much, but a lot
• 56:28
  of the new era has a lot of quite basic direction.
• 56:33
  Might be sort of a bunch of people in mid shot.
• 56:36
  You know, which part of that is going to be a post Kobe sort of
• 56:40
  hangover, But I think part of that just speaks to the nature
• 56:45
  of we we just want to do things that we didn't in 2005, which I
• 56:50
  think could be a bit better. There was a.
• 56:52
  Shot there, though, of all of those witches coming out of the
• 56:56
  mist through the trees, all silhouetted, looking absolutely
• 57:01
  ghoulish. It's like a proper Halloween
• 57:03
  tale, isn't it? Definitely.
• 57:06
  Well, this came out, I think it's November, end of November
• 57:11
  this comes out. So maybe a bit late for it.
• 57:16
  Something's getting too scary, Jack.
• 57:17
  Then you have Alan coming, coming in and going witchcraft
• 57:20
  and. Alfonso, it's in there.
• 57:25
  It's amazing. Oh, and I love this fellow.
• 57:31
  The headshot of them. Is that a drone shot that's.
• 57:34
  In the mist, yeah. And all the all the strings are
• 57:38
  going. It's great this bit.
• 57:41
  Maybe do I even the story it's you know, obviously Marigold can
• 57:48
  sometimes be a bit the music is the story, whereas here
• 57:52
  obviously the story is informing the music customers.
• 57:56
  I'm so great as well with the two threats.
• 57:58
  You've got the threat of the witch trials and you've got the
• 58:01
  threat of the witches, you know, the Moracks creatures.
• 58:05
  Yeah. I think the two things are, you
• 58:08
  know, they're literally surrounded by dangers right now.
• 58:11
  They're not killed by the monsters.
• 58:13
  Then they might get tried by witches.
• 58:15
  You know, it's a pretty tense situation, but I don't think the
• 58:17
  two threats fight each other. They they complement each other.
• 58:21
  Yeah, definitely. And here we have a nice scene
• 58:26
  between ME3 proper actors in my quotes being a Jodie Siobhan,
• 58:34
  Finland and Allen Cummin. It's a nice, it's kind of if one
• 58:40
  moment direction in this, it's a little bit lacking if sometimes
• 58:44
  it'll just cut to a close up of one person talking, perhaps
• 58:49
  because we can't get all these philanthropy actors to all be in
• 58:53
  the location at the same time the whole time perhaps.
• 58:57
  Maybe. But.
• 58:58
  I like that we get our Sonali moment from planet of the UD.
• 59:02
  You know when Sonali gets to make the choice whether to
• 59:05
  portray the Doctor or Donna or not and Willa gets to make the
• 59:08
  same choice. Now they say, you know, you
• 59:09
  child is this woman a witch and she's so scared and the book
• 59:16
  really stresses her guilt after this, but she's.
• 59:20
  Yeah, and that's a moment of classic historical, you know,
• 59:24
  paranoid out of, you know, all it takes for the time for the
• 59:28
  evil is the good men to do nothing sort of thing.
• 59:31
  And this is whether proven that she's a good person.
• 59:35
  And obviously here we have the doctor spell him out.
• 59:39
  Oh, sorry, you bewitch us with your alluring form.
• 59:43
  That's the phrase I was looking for in the beginning was sort of
• 59:47
  showing him for the idea of obviously Debbie it was is a
• 59:53
  conventionally attractive woman. Absolutely.
• 59:56
  You know, she's mapped her for, you know, but that element of
• 1:00:01
  it, you know, alluring form is perhaps pointing to perhaps some
• 1:00:07
  of the real reasons behind this, this trials in historical
• 1:00:11
  context. Absolutely.
• 1:00:15
  Yeah, and this is great. The moment you said where, well,
• 1:00:19
  it's put, you know, under considerable pressure from the
• 1:00:22
  the King of England to to make this choice.
• 1:00:28
  Of course she cracks. Of course she does.
• 1:00:31
  Yeah. But then the doctor forgives her
• 1:00:33
  in the book and says, of course, I understand why you did it, you
• 1:00:37
  know? But she is racked with guilt
• 1:00:39
  after this. Yeah, then.
• 1:00:43
  You know, I, I hear a lot, I hear a lot of very sort of tired
• 1:00:48
  complaints about this era. Oh, it was the writing.
• 1:00:51
  It was the writing. I just didn't get on with the
• 1:00:53
  writing. This is a good script.
• 1:00:57
  Yeah, I'm pleased that there were a lot stronger script with
• 1:01:05
  Chris Tipnall's name on towards the end of the run.
• 1:01:09
  Obviously the flat stuff and even the Daleks and to some
• 1:01:14
  extent power the Doctor because I think in the first two
• 1:01:18
  seasons, a lot of people are going to point towards demons of
• 1:01:23
  a Punjab haunting ability. Darty.
• 1:01:26
  It takes you away and it's just like, I don't think he quite had
• 1:01:31
  that midnight heaven sent that that big.
• 1:01:35
  This is written by you and people can hold that up as the
• 1:01:40
  top of the I would. See me point at spiful spiful
• 1:01:45
  one and two and say that's it. Perhaps so.
• 1:01:49
  This is what everyone's come here for, The big showdown
• 1:01:53
  between Alan come in and and Jodie.
• 1:01:56
  It's great, Great seeing this, isn't it?
• 1:01:59
  I like it when she says to him look to the secrets of the heart
• 1:02:03
  as a proper doctor speech. And that, you know, I will show
• 1:02:07
  you these things in the universe.
• 1:02:09
  I can't show that to you, but you've got to be willing to
• 1:02:13
  accept it. He's so racked with paranoia
• 1:02:16
  himself, isn't he? He's looking over his shoulder
• 1:02:19
  all the time that he would never trust anyone.
• 1:02:22
  It must be comfortable for you to hide behind the title, just
• 1:02:26
  as you do with the title. Doctor, perhaps, you know,
• 1:02:29
  Really nice playwright sort of dialogue.
• 1:02:34
  Did you notice what the director was doing there as the witches
• 1:02:37
  were walking away? The Moracks they were.
• 1:02:39
  It was blowing up the leaves and they were pointing down sort of
• 1:02:42
  as if they were controlling the. Earth, yeah.
• 1:02:44
  Really clever, but I think Jodie Match is coming here.
• 1:02:50
  Yeah, definitely. And I think she's often at her
• 1:02:53
  best when she's one-on-one with a villain.
• 1:02:57
  I think she's quite good at doing.
• 1:02:59
  Barbara Flynn in Survivors of the Flux.
• 1:03:01
  Yeah, the doll in the In revolution of the.
• 1:03:05
  Santara in War of the Santarans on the Hill.
• 1:03:09
  Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of another,
• 1:03:12
  I mean, Tim Shaw to some extent, like, you know.
• 1:03:15
  Well, she was great because she was just taking the.
• 1:03:17
  Piss out of him wouldn't. She.
• 1:03:18
  Yeah, well, you know, still funny.
• 1:03:22
  Yeah. But you know, but one thing we
• 1:03:25
  all have to remember is that Jodie was to click on apps or
• 1:03:28
  something like that. I can't remember but.
• 1:03:32
  I think, I think if anything, yeah.
• 1:03:34
  And I think the era is getting renewed appreciation since RTD
• 1:03:38
  2. I think Jodie's Doctor.
• 1:03:40
  Because I'm telling you now that cinema erupted with cheers when
• 1:03:44
  she turned up in the reality war, where in the cinema I was
• 1:03:47
  in. Yeah, well, so did I at home.
• 1:03:49
  I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but I did not know
• 1:03:53
  that was coming. I don't know whether that was a
• 1:03:56
  public amount. I don't know whether anyone read
• 1:03:58
  that or what, but I didn't know it was coming.
• 1:04:04
  Yeah. You want to know the sequence of
• 1:04:06
  existence, and you get that great moment where Alan coming
• 1:04:10
  is nodding like, yeah, I think I do.
• 1:04:13
  I think I do want to be better, but you just can't quite break
• 1:04:17
  out this social programming. The lessons there as well, she
• 1:04:21
  goes, Stop being afraid of things you don't understand.
• 1:04:25
  Listen to me out there, you people.
• 1:04:28
  That's the lesson of the episode, all right?
• 1:04:30
  Yeah, they were afraid of things, couldn't understand.
• 1:04:34
  Some of us wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.
• 1:04:36
  That's very true. I mean, I suppose we we learned
• 1:04:39
  to sort of step back from those snakes in the grass for a
• 1:04:42
  reason, didn't we? Yeah, yeah, We'll just not go
• 1:04:47
  anywhere near grass. Just don't touch.
• 1:04:48
  I just don't. Think that we should think that
• 1:04:50
  everything that's different is a snake though.
• 1:04:54
  No, that's not fair. I mean, it's sometimes, yeah,
• 1:04:58
  but I'm. Getting close to staring
• 1:05:00
  straight down the camera at the audience here and giving them a
• 1:05:02
  moral lesson. Yeah, like, you know, you need
• 1:05:06
  to be better than this time. I mean, it's not quite awesome.
• 1:05:10
  55 levels of Yeah, some Graham and Ryan.
• 1:05:14
  You fuckers are going to turn. Into tricks.
• 1:05:16
  That's what you're going. To be calm if you don't sort out
• 1:05:20
  your ways. Yeah, you Ryan, always throwing
• 1:05:25
  your rubbish plastic in the recycling bin.
• 1:05:28
  How many times do I have to tell you?
• 1:05:30
  This is my favorite scene of the entire episode.
• 1:05:34
  Is the doctor on the ducking stool?
• 1:05:36
  Yeah. Where the mud tear comes out of
• 1:05:39
  Becca's eye. Right.
• 1:05:41
  And seconds music. And this.
• 1:05:43
  Can I just do it for you for a second?
• 1:05:44
  I just love it. He goes lot.
• 1:05:50
  Not I mean the the the violin or whatever he's playing.
• 1:05:53
  It's just so gorgeous. And.
• 1:06:00
  They literally have to witness her going under.
• 1:06:02
  You know, she's trained to that fucking thing and she goes under
• 1:06:05
  the water. But of course, as Pertwee told
• 1:06:08
  us, Houdini taught us some wonderful tricks.
• 1:06:10
  Yeah, and this is your first series.
• 1:06:13
  If you don't have the bargaining power yet to get the stunt
• 1:06:16
  double S to do all that, you have to do it yourself.
• 1:06:18
  That's right, come War of the son, Tara, she said.
• 1:06:22
  You. Want me to do what now?
• 1:06:23
  No. Thank you.
• 1:06:25
  John Bishop is new. Get him to do it.
• 1:06:27
  Yeah, come power the Doctor. She's ducking out in 20 minutes.
• 1:06:31
  And Becca's terrifying. Here she goes.
• 1:06:33
  Know this doctor when I'm finished with you.
• 1:06:36
  Kill. All your friends as well.
• 1:06:40
  Yeah, that's really good. She's so explicitly nasty, isn't
• 1:06:44
  she? Yeah.
• 1:06:46
  And there's this IP of, you know, get him into this position
• 1:06:50
  by sacrificing everyone else around you, obviously not only
• 1:06:55
  other women in the village, also, you know, the importance
• 1:06:59
  of of solidarity and everyone, you know, grouping together, but
• 1:07:02
  also, you know, these are her people in a way, her village.
• 1:07:07
  You know, in that book Jack specifically says that she
• 1:07:12
  seduced Mr. Savage, her husband, who was this horrible fat old
• 1:07:17
  man who owned all the land and had all the power.
• 1:07:20
  So as a young woman, probably underage, she seduced him, and
• 1:07:24
  then, with the knowledge of herbs that Mother Twiston had
• 1:07:27
  given her, she murdered him. Yeah, yes, that's for that
• 1:07:34
  obvious really good that a lot of that stuff, I would probably
• 1:07:38
  try to get him back in me backward.
• 1:07:40
  I wonder if there was a draft, you know, where it was in there
• 1:07:43
  and Jim probably went. Not enough duckings, you know.
• 1:07:47
  A lot of the changes of the novel do feel like stuff that
• 1:07:52
  was cut because of time. Whether that was drafted in a
• 1:07:56
  script stage, whether these were cut scenes, because this era
• 1:08:01
  doesn't have a lot of excellent material being released, so
• 1:08:05
  maybe some of it was cut. I just don't know.
• 1:08:08
  Although. If the in the original script
• 1:08:11
  was the scene in the book where the doctor goes on about what
• 1:08:14
  the War Games trial and the trial time, not trial, was in
• 1:08:17
  there, I'm very pleased I took that out.
• 1:08:20
  Yeah, but the more that's in our cousins, the verbal in.
• 1:08:26
  Yeah, well, leaves, you know, they got a power of leaves.
• 1:08:29
  Yeah. If but a single leaf should fall
• 1:08:32
  on fertile soil, a Moor axe would have grown.
• 1:08:36
  Exactly what you need mud and you need soil and but again we
• 1:08:42
  have big reference to Houdini, the very wet weekend with
• 1:08:48
  Houdini, which is obviously, yeah.
• 1:08:50
  Doesn't Shootie say it was a very hot weekend with?
• 1:08:54
  Houdini Well you can be hot and wet and but I mean the weekend
• 1:08:58
  is 2 days. Right now it could be hot on a.
• 1:09:01
  Saturday and wet on a Sunday, you know, I mean, so here is the
• 1:09:11
  exclaiming what the top 2 monsters of the week?
• 1:09:15
  Finn what that we're doing? Do we think that I mean, but the
• 1:09:26
  mighty Moretz to to be what? What do we we think of them as
• 1:09:32
  an Amy and presents of them? Maybe try and explain them a
• 1:09:35
  little bit more in the book. But I think as a visual monster,
• 1:09:40
  they look fantastic. I think as a concept they're a
• 1:09:44
  bit, forgive me, bog standard. Oh dear.
• 1:09:49
  Sorry. What the muck was that?
• 1:09:54
  But the idea now of the mud forcing its way up through
• 1:09:58
  Becca, you know, coming out of her eye, holes coming out of her
• 1:10:02
  mouth, you know, it's, it's grotesque, isn't it?
• 1:10:06
  Yeah, that's Oh, and this is another great bit, the black and
• 1:10:11
  white sort of grey scale flashbacks.
• 1:10:16
  If that isn't a steal from Sleepy Hollow with Miranda
• 1:10:20
  Richardson trying to but, you know, cut down the tree in
• 1:10:23
  Sleepy Hollow, I don't know what.
• 1:10:25
  Is it feels very, I think Ben will be the film that was set
• 1:10:30
  doing this time period. But yeah, it definitely feels
• 1:10:32
  like a lift from something. Obviously the tree I think might
• 1:10:36
  be a reference to Mr. James is the ash tree.
• 1:10:39
  Obviously, I'm sure Mr. James probably informed a lot of this
• 1:10:44
  episode that that involved, you know, 3 minutes cut down.
• 1:10:47
  I mean, we face, you know, dire consequences by messing, you
• 1:10:52
  know, with it. But.
• 1:10:53
  I love the description. I know I I know I keep bringing
• 1:10:56
  out the book, but it just it does add great context.
• 1:10:58
  And it is here on the screen of, you know, when the the mud is
• 1:11:02
  trying to take her over and it is literally forcing itself, you
• 1:11:06
  know, up into a wall of breathing owls and everything.
• 1:11:09
  And she says in the book, finally, she just stops
• 1:11:12
  resisting and welcomes it. And it's a blessed relief.
• 1:11:16
  Yeah, you really get that, that sense of her.
• 1:11:20
  You know, I am the witch, you know, surrendering to your base
• 1:11:28
  nature, which obviously is, I suppose a metaphor for the the
• 1:11:34
  terrible things that were being done during this period.
• 1:11:36
  If people surrendering to their their base instinct for mythos
• 1:11:41
  of literalized for the for the text.
• 1:11:45
  You know, horror cinema has a lot of examples of characters
• 1:11:51
  getting physically dirtier as a sign of, you know, succumbing to
• 1:11:57
  that that sin. Or you know, a lot of horror
• 1:12:01
  films will feature Lily white, you know, pure characters being
• 1:12:07
  being muddy and bloody by the end of the proceedings.
• 1:12:10
  And I suppose this is not his version of of literalizing that.
• 1:12:15
  That trope is Becca becoming one with the earth of a mud
• 1:12:21
  creatures. The decision to have the sort of
• 1:12:24
  mud undulating on Becca's face so it looks like like there's
• 1:12:28
  hands under the mud trying to push their way out, you know,
• 1:12:31
  it's really gross, isn't it? It's a very subtle use of CGI.
• 1:12:36
  Yeah, and it's great because, I mean, it's that typical Star
• 1:12:42
  Trek thing. As you know, the famous actor
• 1:12:45
  doesn't want to be in all the make up.
• 1:12:48
  You know, Christopher Plummer in Star Trek 6 doesn't want to look
• 1:12:52
  like a proper Klingon because he's fucking Christopher
• 1:12:55
  Plummer. And I will not be in a real
• 1:12:58
  stupid make up. So he's sort of half looks like
• 1:13:00
  a clear on in half. He looks like Christopher
• 1:13:03
  Plummer. And I think that's probably the
• 1:13:05
  same with her. It's just like, but we're just
• 1:13:07
  doing it for this one shot. There's more.
• 1:13:09
  But I think the idea as well, to keep the femininity of the long
• 1:13:13
  hair, Yeah, with that grotesque makeup, It's such a weird
• 1:13:17
  dichotomy visually. I love it.
• 1:13:21
  Yeah, so I don't think they're the most memorable of monsters
• 1:13:23
  we've ever had. They're mud creatures, you know,
• 1:13:25
  like. Vervoids sort of leaf.
• 1:13:26
  Creatures. They're not the most memorable
• 1:13:28
  we've ever seen. Well, maybe the faces of the
• 1:13:30
  Vervoids, but I think visually they, they just, they suit the
• 1:13:34
  story, You know, they're perfect for the story.
• 1:13:36
  Yeah, Oh, I love. This as well.
• 1:13:41
  I just think this is a very clever.
• 1:13:43
  So we've learnt now it's all about the tree, isn't it?
• 1:13:47
  The tree is the ducking stool. The tree was the prison for the
• 1:13:50
  Moracks and the tree, the ducking stool is the key that if
• 1:13:55
  you get the Moracks back in the prison, you put the ducking
• 1:13:58
  stool back into place and they are trapped.
• 1:14:00
  Very neat. And obviously we give that to
• 1:14:04
  the doctor as a monologue rather than, well, mostly a monologue.
• 1:14:09
  We have a chip in. But rather than obviously the
• 1:14:13
  book, which can expand on that and go, here's how the more
• 1:14:17
  that's came to be here, here is explicitly how Becca cut down
• 1:14:23
  the tree and the connection gets made.
• 1:14:25
  And you know, we can we, we can be shown that properly with the
• 1:14:31
  Ms. 45 minute episode. We'll just get the doctor to
• 1:14:36
  young close bits together. Although Jodie does exposition,
• 1:14:40
  she just rouse it off, doesn't she?
• 1:14:42
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, she's quite a bit of
• 1:14:43
  rapping him off. Doctor Doctor wish, dialogue and
• 1:14:47
  the very. Few commentaries that there are.
• 1:14:49
  She does complain. Yeah.
• 1:14:51
  All right, man, Deb, you didn't get all those fucking
• 1:14:53
  interminable scientific speeches, all right?
• 1:14:56
  Yeah, she did it again in the in the Reality War where she had
• 1:14:59
  the explained she would get word about the BMA film changing, I'm
• 1:15:04
  sure. He's going This is the reshoots.
• 1:15:06
  He's like, I'm not seeing that stuff anymore.
• 1:15:08
  Exactly, you go do it. You actually want to be Bop too,
• 1:15:13
  and we have a lovely moment here where Graham gives the doctor
• 1:15:17
  the hat back and with, you know, the flat team structure thing
• 1:15:21
  back again. And we're all making that
• 1:15:23
  conscious decision with Ryan Graham.
• 1:15:26
  Yes, we're all going to do this together because it has to be to
• 1:15:30
  be done, which is a nice little. I like them going up the hill
• 1:15:34
  with the green torches. There's a sort of, there's a
• 1:15:36
  little bit of Harry Potter in there as well Visually, you
• 1:15:39
  know, of of sort. Of yeah, that would be earlier
• 1:15:41
  ones. I think the Chris Columbus one
• 1:15:43
  thing probably in particular, but some.
• 1:15:45
  So I think all of that's in here, sort of the the better
• 1:15:49
  folk horror film stuff like Sleepy Hollow, stuff like Harry
• 1:15:53
  Potter, it's all in the melting pot visually, is it?
• 1:15:56
  I mean, this horrible face on this tentacle is just like
• 1:16:00
  something in Harry Potter, isn't it?
• 1:16:02
  Yeah. And I suppose that's being the,
• 1:16:07
  I guess that's just sticking point means we have to have an
• 1:16:10
  action theme of some. What is the thing that we're
• 1:16:14
  going into thinking, which maybe, I don't know, maybe we
• 1:16:19
  could have done without it or maybe not without it, but.
• 1:16:23
  That's a sticking. Point on it, sorry did.
• 1:16:27
  You say that's a sticking point. Yes, very.
• 1:16:32
  Droll. Oh yes, maybe.
• 1:16:34
  Yeah, yeah, the liberal pun, sure.
• 1:16:38
  I mean, I've I've ever seen a ruder climax to a Doctor Who
• 1:16:42
  story, That flailing, flapping tentacle and a load of women
• 1:16:50
  trying to destroy it. There's a message here
• 1:16:53
  somewhere. But yeah, dangers of mass
• 1:16:57
  living. Burn that cock with fire.
• 1:17:00
  Green fire, Sure. And so obviously, all would be
• 1:17:09
  more apps who were extras go back into the soil.
• 1:17:12
  But Becca Savage can't because we have to have a little word.
• 1:17:17
  Say goodbye to her in particular.
• 1:17:23
  But yeah, this is maybe a bit of standing around and waiting for
• 1:17:26
  the film to happen. Perhaps.
• 1:17:28
  Oh, I think this is where the directors at her weakest as
• 1:17:32
  well. And I think she's very good with
• 1:17:34
  atmosphere. They're very good with the
• 1:17:35
  horror, yeah. I don't know that the action is
• 1:17:39
  particularly well staged here. It's a bit chaotic.
• 1:17:42
  Yeah. And I think this could have been
• 1:17:44
  the second unit. I don't know if it was done on
• 1:17:46
  the second unit, but I think that could have maybe been
• 1:17:49
  something that we we dealt with at that point.
• 1:17:54
  She should have handed him that hat then and gone to a sort of
• 1:17:57
  reverse of the 2nd Doctor's line.
• 1:17:59
  I would not like a hat like that or something like that.
• 1:18:02
  You know, imagine that. Blow me.
• 1:18:05
  Oh, look. This gorgeous forest glade, now
• 1:18:07
  with the TARDIS in it. Yeah, the end of the year story,
• 1:18:12
  which I presume they've been wandering around for hours
• 1:18:16
  because they haven't got back to the TARDIS in all that time, and
• 1:18:19
  now it's light outside. It's like, you know that ending
• 1:18:22
  of Terror of the Saigons? You know where they go to the
• 1:18:24
  forest and go back to the TARDIS?
• 1:18:25
  Yeah, it's a bit of a Wit career, a trope, because they do
• 1:18:28
  it here, it's the same, and it takes you away.
• 1:18:31
  They're back into the forest to the TARDIS, but it's the same in
• 1:18:35
  Deodati as well. We go back to the TARDIS in the
• 1:18:38
  forest and. Obviously the ghost monument, I
• 1:18:41
  suppose, but that's kind of not, you know, doesn't count because
• 1:18:45
  we're not. More of a desert landscape than
• 1:18:47
  a forest. Yeah, it's that traditional.
• 1:18:50
  Obviously, if we discussed right back when we did the edge
• 1:18:53
  obstruction that traditional Doctor Who I deal with, when we
• 1:18:58
  get back to the TARDIS, the story is over.
• 1:19:02
  I have an offer for you. Yeah.
• 1:19:05
  Stay and be my protector. I mean, it's the kind officer,
• 1:19:11
  but you know, I've got stuff to do in the, in the, in the words
• 1:19:15
  of rhyme, Sinclair, behave yourself.
• 1:19:22
  Oh, it's great. I like.
• 1:19:24
  It There's some cold smiles for the 1st and perhaps last time on
• 1:19:28
  the show. I mean, I think it's a.
• 1:19:30
  Bit dodgy, you know, but they have in fact shown King James
• 1:19:34
  that aliens stroke witchcraft genuinely does exist and so I'm
• 1:19:41
  imagine he's going to go back to.
• 1:19:42
  London and go Oh well, you know, it was all aliens.
• 1:19:46
  But well and the great line you know technology be a member
• 1:19:50
  still in wishable for magic. We're about to prove them right.
• 1:19:54
  This disappears episode ends, but of course the book does not,
• 1:19:59
  and at this point it famously, you know, goes on to give
• 1:20:04
  whether a little bit of a of a an epilogue where it goes on to
• 1:20:12
  talk about the end of her life, which.
• 1:20:15
  Indeed. The book is obviously the
• 1:20:19
  episode, sorry is not strictly speaking about her in that same
• 1:20:24
  way. So it's some difficult to really
• 1:20:27
  end on that note, but it's lovely.
• 1:20:29
  Party shot though wasn't it of the the TARDIS disappearing and
• 1:20:32
  the leaves all just gently coming down while they look on?
• 1:20:35
  And then them just sort of standing around what?
• 1:20:37
  About next time we're going back to another forest.
• 1:20:40
  Time more forest. Fuck it takes you away though.
• 1:20:44
  Come on. Yeah.
• 1:20:48
  Not not very long next time, trainer.
• 1:20:50
  It's only over. So about 10 seconds.
• 1:20:52
  Long but our bloody banger of an episode that should have been
• 1:20:55
  the series finale. I don't know, I mean that's a
• 1:20:59
  bad club because I had my issues with it, but I think my issues
• 1:21:03
  almost the opposite to someone else's.
• 1:21:05
  I quite like sort of thematic concerns I think tie up quite
• 1:21:10
  nicely and I I only really appreciate it as a scenario to
• 1:21:18
  watch series as I've been doing. I think I've met 2 episodes.
• 1:21:21
  That's them. Find it very interesting, but it
• 1:21:25
  takes your way. Yeah.
• 1:21:29
  I mean they do a lot with the grammar and stuff in that as
• 1:21:33
  well. But you know, I think if they
• 1:21:37
  have left in the solution, for example, I think that could have
• 1:21:41
  been been interesting. Not to say that they did nothing
• 1:21:45
  in Series 12, but I just think that could have been an
• 1:21:47
  interesting end to that. Or can then maybe we pick
• 1:21:52
  someone else up in in spiteful. Maybe we have Sasha the one
• 1:21:59
  coming in around in spiteful and don't reveal who he is and.
• 1:22:05
  What's? In there, Yeah, maybe.
• 1:22:08
  Maybe he is the fugitive of the Dibim rather than the.
• 1:22:14
  You know my God. He he is, you know, the fugitive
• 1:22:17
  Dr. is not the only fugitive of the Dibim.
• 1:22:19
  It turns out the master is also one in memory.
• 1:22:22
  You know, can split that off and go and do thing for that story,
• 1:22:27
  but you know not not not to be. I'm not going to cane on about a
• 1:22:32
  load of anti chippenal rhetoric because I really like this era,
• 1:22:34
  but I do think the the four episode here of Punjab Kablam,
• 1:22:41
  the Witch Finders and it takes you away and that's 4 completely
• 1:22:44
  new writers to Doctor Who. And. 4 completely new directors.
• 1:22:51
  Like you said earlier, it's just such a a diverse variety of
• 1:22:55
  tones and genres telling completely different sort of
• 1:22:59
  imaginative, scary, clever stories.
• 1:23:05
  I think that's a great 4 episode run there.
• 1:23:08
  Yeah, and it's very differently in terms of tones.
• 1:23:12
  You've got more lighter episodes being balanced against more
• 1:23:15
  darker ones. And I think the idea of
• 1:23:18
  traditional Doctor Who versus more out there stuff I think
• 1:23:23
  could blame. And the Witch Finders in their
• 1:23:27
  own ways are a little bit more traditional bold too.
• 1:23:30
  Sandwich in between 2:00 but push them in very bold ambitious
• 1:23:35
  directions both in their representation of of history and
• 1:23:42
  what it means to sort of remember people both both in the
• 1:23:47
  historical context in terms of that, you know colonial
• 1:23:52
  massacring and remembering people in terms of the dangers
• 1:23:58
  of succumbing to that nostalgia. But the dad in It Takes You Away
• 1:24:02
  has and I think Series 11 has a lot of thoughts about
• 1:24:09
  remembering those we've lost and left behind and and what it
• 1:24:13
  means for us to do that. You know, obviously in them with
• 1:24:18
  the women themselves to Earth, with the rackets in the UK, we
• 1:24:21
  kind of go into that a bit with more with the great stuff.
• 1:24:25
  And yeah, I think it's an interesting part of the show
• 1:24:29
  that the kind of bits look down upon a little bit because, you
• 1:24:33
  know, perhaps by the time we get to the likes of the future of
• 1:24:38
  the video film, the Timeless Child arc puts off a lot of
• 1:24:43
  people, whether right or wrong, we could debate our later time,
• 1:24:48
  but I think it probably did. And then Flux is obviously very
• 1:24:55
  contained and very all that one story, which again is going to
• 1:25:01
  polarise the audience because a lot of people will like that
• 1:25:06
  episode of the week stuff and a lot of people will want that
• 1:25:10
  series, series arc stuff. And but that is.
• 1:25:14
  Quite because if you want episode of the week then watch
• 1:25:16
  11, if you want arc watch 13. You got it all here.
• 1:25:21
  Yeah, and if you want, like we're panicking a little bit, so
• 1:25:25
  we're going to find the last few.
• 1:25:27
  Davies back then what? Shoes off.
• 1:25:30
  That's right. That's great stuff in 12, don't
• 1:25:33
  you pretend. Obviously.
• 1:25:34
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you know, if you want
• 1:25:38
  a Jodie Whittaker episode as script edited by Andrew
• 1:25:41
  Cartmail, then watch Kablam. You know, that's just jump
• 1:25:45
  straight from the McCoy here. You want a Hartnell historical
• 1:25:47
  watch Demons of Punjab. You know, there's a lot
• 1:25:50
  happening here, I'm telling you. Exactly.
• 1:25:52
  You know, I don't One thing I do appreciate about the hero, if
• 1:25:58
  it's willingness to go and do different things, not a lot of
• 1:26:03
  them. Some of them might be not as
• 1:26:05
  successful as the others, but, you know, you tell me that the
• 1:26:09
  same person, well, Orphan 55 if it takes you away, or a few
• 1:26:15
  people, which if you remember them, demons of a Punjab.
• 1:26:19
  Those are very different stories that are coming from very
• 1:26:22
  different things, maybe not always successfully, but, you
• 1:26:27
  know, it's two very different approaches.
• 1:26:29
  And you compare that to the current era where, you know, OK,
• 1:26:35
  there's a lot in the current era I definitely enjoy.
• 1:26:38
  But it's a lot easier to map, you know, space babies to the
• 1:26:44
  robot revolution, you know, the devil's crawl to the Rust, Send
• 1:26:48
  me 3 odds to Lucky Day and whatever Interstellar Song
• 1:26:53
  Contest to Vogue. It's very much Oh yeah, that
• 1:26:55
  one's that and that one's that. And you know, it's it is.
• 1:27:00
  I think maybe it's a sign that whether this era, whether the
• 1:27:06
  creative team continue or don't, I think it's that a sign that we
• 1:27:12
  need to shake that structure again and and pick something
• 1:27:17
  else to run with just as this did.
• 1:27:19
  You know, that's why it was such a nice change of pace for me to
• 1:27:23
  watch this and go, Yep, this is definitely different to them.
• 1:27:27
  All that stuff and the and the RTD stuff.
• 1:27:30
  Some people don't like that, some people do, but that's what
• 1:27:34
  we want. You know, you're a new
• 1:27:36
  showrunner. This is your first year.
• 1:27:40
  Change it. I think he was braver, way
• 1:27:43
  braver than Moffett. Moffett played it very safe in
• 1:27:46
  Series 5, and I acknowledge that 5 is a very good year.
• 1:27:50
  But he kept the same musician. He kept the same general
• 1:27:52
  structure of the season. You know, he knew what worked in
• 1:27:55
  those earlier seasons and he just did that formula to
• 1:27:59
  absolute, to his credit, to a brilliant degree.
• 1:28:03
  Chipna went, do you know what? No, we're going to change the
• 1:28:05
  musician and the tone of the show.
• 1:28:07
  We're going to make it. We're going to move it to
• 1:28:08
  Saturday night. We're going to bring in three
• 1:28:10
  companions, right? And you're right, not all of it
• 1:28:12
  worked, but man, it, it absolutely was.
• 1:28:16
  I think it's the most dramatic shift since possibly like war
• 1:28:22
  games. If they maybe.
• 1:28:24
  There maybe war games we have from space.
• 1:28:28
  Possibly, although that is of course, both of those writers
• 1:28:31
  obviously feature very prominently in the next era.
• 1:28:34
  One of them obviously 10 bits and Malcolm Holk.
• 1:28:38
  Who does Malcolm Holk have a story in every Jumper Three
• 1:28:43
  season? Is that right?
• 1:28:46
  I can't remember. I think it might be.
• 1:28:48
  Well, you know, there's the two writers who are still very
• 1:28:52
  involved in the next era of the show.
• 1:28:54
  Before the before we, before we bring the axe down on Fraser
• 1:28:59
  Gregory, I mean, or determine his guilt or otherwise.
• 1:29:03
  As the Witch of the Ham fam, we need to say our three fabulous
• 1:29:08
  things about this episode. Sure.
• 1:29:12
  So, well, I mean, Joe Forbes, the Ham fam find you guilty of
• 1:29:21
  constantly banging on about how great the 13th Doctor is, which
• 1:29:28
  is really unfortunate because now they're going to have to
• 1:29:31
  listen to me, Jack Hoyer, turn on how great the 13th Doctor is.
• 1:29:35
  Because my first point is as the 13th doctor, I think this is a
• 1:29:43
  really strong. It says to her she is really put
• 1:29:48
  through the winner both physically and there, you know,
• 1:29:50
  a lot of snappy, snappy dialogue to to rush through.
• 1:29:54
  I think she does a lot of that really successfully.
• 1:29:58
  And I think this is a key piece of the thesis of the new show,
• 1:30:04
  which is what does it mean to have a female doctor?
• 1:30:08
  You know, we're not just picking another person.
• 1:30:11
  We are changing a cultural joint bust, you know, we are doing
• 1:30:21
  something that we know is going to shake some people or upset
• 1:30:26
  them or, you know, just surprise them.
• 1:30:28
  I mean, it had never occurred to me that the doctor would be a
• 1:30:34
  woman. I'd never opposed to it or
• 1:30:37
  anything like that. I was just never even occurred
• 1:30:40
  to me that they would even do it.
• 1:30:42
  And then they did it. And I went, oh, yeah, sure.
• 1:30:46
  That's that's how woke I am. But but, but yeah, I think she's
• 1:30:53
  really good when she's solo one on ones with Siobhan Simmerman
• 1:31:00
  and particularly with Alan coming on to the great she when
• 1:31:06
  she's held hostage where her doctor's often really good where
• 1:31:10
  she just sort of sit in there. But she's got the upper hand.
• 1:31:13
  But for now, she's just going to sit there and and poke the
• 1:31:17
  villain with a stick and just wind them up a little bit.
• 1:31:21
  And I think what would be the idea of, you know, I can show
• 1:31:27
  you what's out there. You know, a Doctor Who has
• 1:31:31
  access to the mysteries of the world but is also intrigued by
• 1:31:35
  them. As we see obviously, in the next
• 1:31:38
  episode, it takes you away. You know, she still has more to
• 1:31:41
  learn but wants to take other people on that journey with her.
• 1:31:46
  And we obviously see her as a mentor of the age, obviously
• 1:31:52
  leaving up to in the flux. She has the what would the
• 1:31:56
  doctor do? Silly little thin rhythm on her
• 1:31:59
  hands, which, you know, people's minds can be cast.
• 1:32:04
  Back to this story as an example of Debbie Whitaker showing what
• 1:32:09
  the Doctor should do. Wonderful.
• 1:32:12
  What a wonderful explanation as to why you love her.
• 1:32:16
  Gorgeous. My first thing then is going to
• 1:32:19
  be I can't say her surname because it's too many
• 1:32:21
  consonants. Sally Aprahappenheim, the
• 1:32:24
  director of this episode. I'm not going to confront that
• 1:32:28
  because I'm also a white man. You can't do any better.
• 1:32:32
  Yeah, I think. It is as close to proper
• 1:32:40
  autumnal folk horror as we're ever going to get in Doctor Who,
• 1:32:44
  where it feels like nature itself is closing in on people
• 1:32:48
  and their leaves are flying up in the air.
• 1:32:50
  There's mist hanging there. You know the mud is going to
• 1:32:53
  come up and wrap its tentacles around your neck and disgusting,
• 1:32:58
  horrible mud witches are coming out of the darkness to to get
• 1:33:03
  you. I mean, it's properly
• 1:33:05
  atmospheric, scary stuff. Yeah.
• 1:33:09
  I just think she's got a good eye.
• 1:33:11
  And if we said a couple of sort of negative things about a
• 1:33:14
  couple of moments of close-ups and action, I think that's you
• 1:33:18
  can shove that aside in favour of the beautiful imagery she
• 1:33:23
  does. And, you know, she's got a great
• 1:33:25
  location and by all accounts, it was a hellish shoe, like, you
• 1:33:28
  know, muddy and wet and filthy weather.
• 1:33:32
  And she just makes a thing of of horrific beauty out of it.
• 1:33:38
  Yeah, I think yeah, but I don't know.
• 1:33:41
  I don't remember. Did she come back after this?
• 1:33:45
  I can't remember, I think. I think she might have done
• 1:33:47
  Saranga as well. All right.
• 1:33:50
  I mean, that's a very different atmosphere.
• 1:33:56
  Yeah, that's an odd. I mean that's different called
• 1:33:59
  because it's a lot of still collar doors.
• 1:34:03
  So, you know, it's a bit more difficult to make that
• 1:34:06
  engagement, but I remember the garbage planet.
• 1:34:10
  But they're all never beginning being quite nice that.
• 1:34:12
  Camera never stops moving. It's like the bloody West Wing
• 1:34:15
  going around that spaceship. That's the real Selena.
• 1:34:18
  The conundrum is how to keep the camera still.
• 1:34:22
  And the Patea, of course, is very cool.
• 1:34:24
  Exactly. Yeah, the second best monster in
• 1:34:27
  this series. No, sorry, the third best
• 1:34:30
  monster in this series after Pete and off and jump down and
• 1:34:33
  I've just got one and two, remember?
• 1:34:36
  And then the team comes in first.
• 1:34:37
  Although we've also acknowledged that Becca Savage is up there as
• 1:34:40
  well. So, yes, yeah.
• 1:34:44
  So yeah, I mean, I guess following on from that from a
• 1:34:47
  technical perspective, I think I'll go to the other constant,
• 1:34:54
  the Bureau second canola of the, I think because of how frequent
• 1:35:02
  they are in Doctor Who, I think him and Murray Pearls are
• 1:35:06
  probably 2 of the highest. And W Simpson, I'm sure must be
• 1:35:10
  probably the top three in terms of how frequent they are.
• 1:35:15
  And by then come a lot of Doctor Who's hands when it comes to the
• 1:35:19
  music. That is something that we lose
• 1:35:22
  out on with the move from 20th centuries of serials production
• 1:35:29
  to 21st century, you know, being done like every other proper
• 1:35:35
  television show, is that we're going to get more consistency
• 1:35:40
  with things like the music. You know, we're not going to
• 1:35:43
  get, you know, a Dudley Simpson for one month, you know, Clef
• 1:35:48
  McCullough for one month and then Marquez for another month
• 1:35:52
  and whoever else. You know, there's going to be a
• 1:35:54
  lot more universality to it and whilst I think Murray Colt is
• 1:36:00
  very there's a lot of emotion and expression in his music and
• 1:36:07
  we've spoken passionately about his work before of films, human
• 1:36:11
  nature and indeed on basically every other MU Hoo story that
• 1:36:15
  we've done before. I think the second does a really
• 1:36:19
  good job in different in placing the stories within their genres
• 1:36:27
  and invoking a lot to be emotions and feelings that are
• 1:36:32
  brought up when watching bee shows.
• 1:36:37
  Whereas I think sometimes Marie Cole can do.
• 1:36:40
  Do you remember what you were feeling when you were watching a
• 1:36:44
  different Russell D Davies show? Well, we're going to feel the
• 1:36:48
  same thing for them. Whereas I think he had say, can
• 1:36:52
  I come over really is bringing up those inner emotions that we
• 1:36:58
  feel when we watch a piece of folk horror and Emma James
• 1:37:02
  adaptation or just anything that would feature something which
• 1:37:07
  goes bump in the night. You know that that feeling of
• 1:37:10
  thread that something's happening deeply rooted within
• 1:37:15
  this community, but it needs to be dealt with.
• 1:37:19
  That paranoia, that suspicion is really reflective.
• 1:37:23
  Well, in the musical school, this is all great violin work.
• 1:37:27
  And like we mentioned earlier, the transitions from theme to
• 1:37:31
  theme, you know, the cuts to establishing shots of, of the of
• 1:37:36
  the environments that they're in and partnered with Sagan's
• 1:37:42
  musical accompaniment. I think he's really fun.
• 1:37:46
  Well, it's functional, but in the best way there places the
• 1:37:50
  audience within this time period and within this genre.
• 1:37:56
  And then next week we're going to go for this genre and be
• 1:37:59
  placed within that period. So yeah, I think that that's
• 1:38:03
  what I'm going to say. Well done.
• 1:38:07
  I think his score for Demons of the Punjab might be one of the
• 1:38:11
  single best scores ever. We're bringing in those Indian
• 1:38:14
  and that that male voice. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:38:17
  Oh yeah. Yeah.
• 1:38:17
  That's really. Good.
• 1:38:18
  It's just stunning. I love you Murray, but I I do
• 1:38:23
  think a change was needed at this point and saying you are
• 1:38:28
  more than up to the task. Yeah, I think that's really best
• 1:38:31
  for any of it. Shaving back in my life, really
• 1:38:34
  good at making those stronger distinctions.
• 1:38:37
  Murray Gold will do exactly what you need him to do, but brings
• 1:38:43
  with him because he is only the one person, you know who's been
• 1:38:47
  doing the job for the best part of 20 years will bring that
• 1:38:51
  uniformity, which, you know, I can remember the different
• 1:38:56
  themes for the characters in the in the Murray Gold era more than
• 1:39:03
  you know, I don't know if I could hum the 13th doctor having
• 1:39:07
  a a theme. I'm not sure.
• 1:39:09
  But but, you know, music is the different music blooms out
• 1:39:14
  different things within all of us, and Sagan's music in this
• 1:39:18
  story really brings the atmosphere to life.
• 1:39:22
  I'm reliably informed because I heard it on an interview out of
• 1:39:26
  the horse's mouth. Sorry, Joy Wilkinson, I'm not
• 1:39:29
  calling you a horse that. The.
• 1:39:32
  When the writers room for Series 11, when the episodes were being
• 1:39:35
  allocated, that was quite surprising because the episodes
• 1:39:39
  that people pitched for and the episode that people fought up
• 1:39:43
  the ideas for, they weren't the episodes.
• 1:39:45
  The end of that writing, Chibnall made some choices where
• 1:39:48
  I think, I think Joey Wilkinson pitched It Takes You Away and I
• 1:39:54
  think Pete Mctighe, he didn't pick.
• 1:40:01
  What was his one this year? Like a blam?
• 1:40:03
  Yeah, So. So there.
• 1:40:04
  So there was some sort of moving up.
• 1:40:06
  However, you can't tell because this is a really great script.
• 1:40:09
  And I think if if she objected to doing this, then she poured
• 1:40:13
  her heart and soul into this. And what she delivered was an
• 1:40:17
  excellent piece of horror, an excellent piece of history where
• 1:40:21
  you learn a lot about King James as a script with a message which
• 1:40:26
  is as important today as it was back then, you know, and A and a
• 1:40:30
  lesson in just the the horrors of history.
• 1:40:34
  It also manages to give all three of their companions
• 1:40:37
  something to do within the story, which they don't always
• 1:40:39
  get right in the chimney era. It gives the Doctor a central
• 1:40:43
  role in a really interesting way, and it hands out
• 1:40:48
  performance piece scenes for really impressive guest actors
• 1:40:51
  like Siobhan and Alan Cumming to come in and deliver.
• 1:40:55
  So I think it's a really good all rounder of a script, really
• 1:40:59
  quite accomplished. And if my only issue is the
• 1:41:03
  climax and that action bit, which I don't think is quite as
• 1:41:08
  impressive as it needs to be, that's my only complaint.
• 1:41:11
  Because basically my complaint of every Doctor Who story is
• 1:41:14
  that the climax isn't as impressive as it can be.
• 1:41:17
  I think this is a really good piece of writing, and I think
• 1:41:22
  she takes it to the next level when she gets a chance to do it
• 1:41:25
  over again as the book. So I think Joy Wilkinson was
• 1:41:28
  quite a find. I wish we'd had a second story
• 1:41:30
  out of her, and I'm pleased that the second story out of her was
• 1:41:33
  the second version of this. In the target version was was
• 1:41:36
  she going to do one of the flocks episodes, possibly doing
• 1:41:40
  something? Vinay.
• 1:41:41
  Patel. We're certainly going to do one
• 1:41:43
  in that, yeah. Was that your second choice
• 1:41:48
  then? Yeah.
• 1:41:49
  OK, My final choice. And I'll take a deep breath as I
• 1:41:54
  say this. Obviously, this might be the
• 1:41:57
  only Christian Milier of a story that we end up doing because,
• 1:42:02
  you know, he only had one daughter.
• 1:42:06
  So I think I'll pick. I don't know what.
• 1:42:11
  I'm not sure what specific work Christian Moore did for this
• 1:42:16
  episode, but I think I should pick Chris Tipmall's My Final
• 1:42:22
  Pick. And it's a bit general if Chris
• 1:42:25
  Tipmall's stewardship of the show at this point and how this
• 1:42:31
  episode only comes together as it is in, I mean, in concept,
• 1:42:37
  let alone in the actual finished product because of that
• 1:42:41
  stewardship, I think. But Rusty Davies and Steve
• 1:42:46
  Moffatt have both both contributed some of the Doctor,
• 1:42:51
  best Doctor of my childhood and indeed of my of my life today.
• 1:42:58
  But you feel it might be me underestimating underselling the
• 1:43:05
  fact that you feel their hand, you feel their pen on the page.
• 1:43:11
  You know, in episodes that are not certainly speaking by them.
• 1:43:17
  So you know the the ood stories don't have Russell T Davis's
• 1:43:22
  name on them officially, but you you feel the pen on the page
• 1:43:26
  from the man. This concept of a series 11
• 1:43:33
  writers were more contributive collaborative ideas.
• 1:43:37
  Obviously Christy Morris blame himself, the Sunday night drama,
• 1:43:43
  you know, family aspects of it all.
• 1:43:46
  He obviously brings Bradley Walsh and Jerry Whitaker from
• 1:43:50
  there prior collaborations with him.
• 1:43:55
  But I think in general, this idea of we are going to break
• 1:44:02
  those boundaries with a female Doctor.
• 1:44:04
  We've obviously been edging closer and closer with female
• 1:44:09
  Master. You know, we've, we've been
• 1:44:11
  pushing our way there, but we've finally got there.
• 1:44:16
  And that brings with it a whole new range of storytelling.
• 1:44:20
  I'm sure there will have been plenty of people like myself who
• 1:44:23
  will have gone grey Female Doctor.
• 1:44:26
  I'd love to see something, Michael, which for our episode
• 1:44:29
  and hey, Preston, we've got 1 Indian 1, you know?
• 1:44:34
  And I think that doesn't come without that stewardship,
• 1:44:37
  without that different approach to the show.
• 1:44:41
  And I think that the fact that you don't feel the author's pen
• 1:44:50
  in this case is a refreshing change of pace.
• 1:44:56
  It allows this story to stand out on its own.
• 1:45:00
  Away from could blame the week before, away from it takes you
• 1:45:05
  away the next week. And I think the fact that large
• 1:45:10
  portions of the target in mobilisation are very similar to
• 1:45:15
  the episode, with notable epicions that are like the
• 1:45:19
  introduction, the ending, the increased focus on Becca
• 1:45:26
  Savage's back story, but the bare bones of the piece, I think
• 1:45:31
  hard to feel very much like the episode of being an abridged
• 1:45:37
  version of the novelisation. And I think that speaks to Joy
• 1:45:41
  Wilkinson's confidence with how the scripts are executed, and
• 1:45:47
  further speaks to the confidence with which Christian Moore has
• 1:45:52
  executed a period of the show which is divisive but absolutely
• 1:46:01
  innovative, and the change that's been welcomed by myself
• 1:46:06
  at the time. And I hope, even though I'm not
• 1:46:09
  the greatest Christian I ever fan overall, I hope we'll be
• 1:46:14
  greatly appreciated more in the years to come by people who
• 1:46:18
  might have gone, You know, oh, finally he gets it right with
• 1:46:22
  the Flux. Or oh, finally he gets it right
• 1:46:26
  with Power of the Doctor because he's got Colin Baker in it.
• 1:46:29
  Or, you know, as as him, but being one step or whatever, you
• 1:46:32
  know, just this idea of no rap to me, although I'm not the
• 1:46:36
  biggest fan of this year. And to me it wasn't a case of
• 1:46:39
  finally he's got me right. And to me, there were plenty of
• 1:46:43
  examples right in this first year, but you know, are some of
• 1:46:48
  the greatest. I mean, you know, I I really
• 1:46:52
  like this episode, but I'd probably put it in a sort of B
• 1:46:57
  tier or B plus tier Doctor Who. But I think some examples like
• 1:47:01
  demons are the punctab and it takes you away.
• 1:47:04
  I would be tempted to put in that A+ tier A doctor.
• 1:47:08
  And I think that only comes through Christian Mills
• 1:47:12
  stewardship. So yeah, he's my Christian Mills
• 1:47:16
  who would have funk. Christian Mills is my final
• 1:47:19
  pick. A.
• 1:47:20
  Superb choice. Although, you know, now this is
• 1:47:25
  a story that vindicates. You know, it tortures women.
• 1:47:31
  It accuses women, but ultimately because the women within it are
• 1:47:35
  pretty fabulous, it celebrates women as well.
• 1:47:39
  And so I would like, because my first thing was the director, a
• 1:47:44
  woman. My second thing was the writer,
• 1:47:47
  a woman. So my last thing is going to be
• 1:47:50
  Siobhan Finneran as Bec Savage, just because I think she knows
• 1:47:54
  exactly how to play this role just perfectly.
• 1:47:58
  Yeah, she's got to come in and she's got to be truly sinister.
• 1:48:01
  That bit where she's smiling straight out the camera and
• 1:48:05
  goes, you know, we'll, we'll get this CEO, this vile curse out of
• 1:48:10
  Bilehurst, even if it means killing them all.
• 1:48:13
  She says at the end of 1 scene. Yeah, absolutely chilling, you
• 1:48:17
  know, spits hatred at the doctor when she's on the ducking stool,
• 1:48:22
  has got the town in the palm of her hand when we first see her,
• 1:48:26
  you know, in a grip of fear. It's a really great turn, and
• 1:48:29
  you need a powerful actress in that role to really convince.
• 1:48:34
  So I think it's an undervalued performance, actually.
• 1:48:39
  And yeah, one of the highlights of that first year for me.
• 1:48:45
  Definitely. I think it's all myself skipping
• 1:48:47
  film performance, but we perhaps have been mission in the
• 1:48:54
  theories up to that point. Maybe.
• 1:48:57
  But yeah, it's really good, yeah.
• 1:49:01
  I mean, when the, you know, the your sort of villains are
• 1:49:04
  Nibbler from Futurama, a frog on a chair, you know, like, you
• 1:49:09
  know, it's not hard to stand out some a man with a load of teeth
• 1:49:12
  in his face, like it's not hard to stand out, but she stands out
• 1:49:16
  because she's fucking good. She's, I think, delivers exactly
• 1:49:21
  what's expect. Well, exactly what's expected
• 1:49:26
  might not be expected of her because, as we've said before,
• 1:49:29
  she is of that ilk. That would be in the ITV Sunday
• 1:49:36
  night, but I don't remember if she was literally in
• 1:49:39
  Broadchurch. But if she's not, she might as
• 1:49:41
  well have been, because. She's done a Sunday night police
• 1:49:45
  drama sentence. Yes, you've probably been a
• 1:49:47
  dozen things, but I'm a bit like a broad church and said, yeah,
• 1:49:51
  maybe we don't expect this of her, but I think she's a wise,
• 1:49:56
  wise choice. Yeah, Duck the witch.
• 1:49:59
  Well, it's my sad duty to inform you, Fraser Gregory, that you
• 1:50:06
  have been found guilty of insane opinions within this Ham fam
• 1:50:13
  community. Well, Speaking of an insane
• 1:50:15
  opinion, I have a few people like games, but maybe we're not
• 1:50:21
  testing the view of patience too much.
• 1:50:24
  I do have a few more Ham fam questions which we were leaping
• 1:50:29
  through that episode so far. Oh.
• 1:50:31
  Go on. Yeah.
• 1:50:32
  I barely got the chance to actually look at my notebook and
• 1:50:36
  go, Oh yes, people, people actually ask me some questions.
• 1:50:40
  So I'm going to start with a few people who are probably more
• 1:50:46
  more in the middle of it because I have one particular Christian
• 1:50:50
  Malira fan who many of you will know, and one particular
• 1:50:56
  Christian Malira not fan who many of you will know.
• 1:50:59
  So I'll, I'll end with them, but I'll get on some people in the
• 1:51:05
  middle. Gareth Bully or we've obviously
• 1:51:10
  not. Somehow we've managed to do 3
• 1:51:13
  positive things without mentioning Ellen coming.
• 1:51:16
  I know, I think. I did think about it, but I
• 1:51:19
  wanted to do the women. I think it's quite worth the
• 1:51:22
  best news for you, but. You clearly don't know me that
• 1:51:27
  well then. Well, but I think it's quite,
• 1:51:32
  quite nice that we've managed to get the three points each but
• 1:51:36
  weren't but Alan coming. But how do we feel about Alan?
• 1:51:42
  Well, the way he faced it was Joe.
• 1:51:44
  How do you feel about Alan coming and then compared to some
• 1:51:51
  of his other previous? Are you familiar with his other
• 1:51:54
  work? I mean, I've seen him in the
• 1:51:55
  Spice Girls movie. He was pretty great in that.
• 1:51:58
  Yeah. I, I mean, I, I think Alan
• 1:52:03
  Cummins a massive talent. I've seen him do some
• 1:52:06
  Shakespeare, you know, some RSC stuff.
• 1:52:08
  I, he's a really impressive actor.
• 1:52:10
  But that role needed someone with massive charisma, with
• 1:52:15
  comedy chops and acting, you know, like serious acting chops
• 1:52:18
  as well. And he just sails for it.
• 1:52:22
  You know, like I said, my ice cart don't come off him when
• 1:52:24
  he's on the screen. Yeah, I really like him in Eyes
• 1:52:29
  Wide Shop Lost. Amy Cubitt film is really good
• 1:52:33
  creepy enigmatic performance opposite Tom Cruise in places,
• 1:52:37
  old hotel receptionist for me. There's a really great Kubrick
• 1:52:43
  Malcolm McDowell stare and yeah, you need someone who's going to
• 1:52:48
  whip the mask off and you go, oh, it's this celebrity special
• 1:52:52
  guest star. I'm coming, you know, and I
• 1:52:56
  think it's nice for people who, who do go to Hollywood to, to
• 1:53:01
  come back to little old England and, you know, entertain us with
• 1:53:05
  their peasants somehow. The baby.
• 1:53:08
  Steps into his career, right? Yeah, yeah, right at the start
• 1:53:12
  he turns up in a BBV production. While I'm coming.
• 1:53:16
  Yeah, in like a minor role, people.
• 1:53:19
  Fantastic money, the best thing in there for a mile.
• 1:53:22
  But obviously, Alan Cummings, if these close doors were probably
• 1:53:26
  a mechanic and a dentist, no? It was Colin Baker and Peter
• 1:53:30
  Davison. Well, that's that's why I said a
• 1:53:33
  mechanic and a dentist. Fair enough.
• 1:53:37
  A newcomer to be a hamster scene.
• 1:53:41
  I'm hoping I'm pronouncing this name correctly.
• 1:53:44
  Sea heart SI. Space heart.
• 1:53:48
  Sea heart no, Oh no, sorry, sorry.
• 1:53:52
  Heart pronouncing that that's not just one.
• 1:53:55
  Word like sea. Heart, but careful if Smith
• 1:54:01
  might notice that I'm teasing Joe by referring to his dear
• 1:54:05
  friend Simon Hart. Using me.
• 1:54:10
  Using me so he's a quick real joke of a soy heart has never
• 1:54:15
  been on one of these pockets. I've never heard of him before.
• 1:54:19
  But. Please continue.
• 1:54:20
  He said. What do you think of the Tim
• 1:54:22
  Alira going for the less well known historical subjects?
• 1:54:26
  Obviously we spoke about in the Unquiet Deadbelts, you had World
• 1:54:31
  War 2, the 1980's, the Victorian era.
• 1:54:36
  So what do we think of less well known historical subjects and do
• 1:54:40
  we think this sat well with the general audience?
• 1:54:44
  Possibly not with the general audience, but really well with
• 1:54:48
  me. Like the Massacre of Saint
• 1:54:50
  Bartholomew's Eve, I think it is worth shining a light on some of
• 1:54:55
  these lesser spoken of, lesser thought about atrocities that
• 1:54:59
  happened in history. And you know, whilst I don't
• 1:55:03
  think we should be because we are making entertainment out of
• 1:55:08
  them, but I think this is the right side of the line.
• 1:55:12
  Shoving Hitler in a cupboard, that's the wrong side of the
• 1:55:15
  line. This is the right side of the
• 1:55:17
  line. So I think it's wonderful.
• 1:55:18
  Yeah. I think, you know, all three of
• 1:55:20
  them are just as we spoke a little bit about the beginning
• 1:55:24
  topics that we're just not maybe going to touch him prior
• 1:55:28
  decades, you know, the partition of India.
• 1:55:32
  You know, those are parts which I've seen we can't have the
• 1:55:40
  doctor going to Rosa parts era on purpose with Yas and Ryan on
• 1:55:45
  board. So you know, that has to be a
• 1:55:47
  sort of accident. You know, we can't really do
• 1:55:49
  that too much. And then this, you know, I would
• 1:55:56
  say that they're shining alight not only on periods of history,
• 1:56:01
  but problems of the human condition, which were
• 1:56:06
  exacerbated by the lack of information available to people
• 1:56:10
  from the past. So, you know, they're different
• 1:56:13
  societal and cultural contexts. The bit shit.
• 1:56:17
  Well, with the general audience. I I don't know what I mean.
• 1:56:22
  I would say this series 12 historicals is what Nikola Tesla
• 1:56:28
  wanted to be a diabarty bits of Skyfall.
• 1:56:33
  Skyfall yes, thank you, Christian North.
• 1:56:36
  Skyfall They are going back to those BBC costume drama eras a
• 1:56:45
  little bit more. That's not to speak to the
• 1:56:48
  quality of the stories themselves, but it's just an
• 1:56:52
  observation. So maybe perhaps the production
• 1:56:56
  team maybe lost a bit of confidence in that regard.
• 1:57:00
  I'm not sure. But yeah, I think we Mischief
• 1:57:03
  and they've worked really well going from one to the other.
• 1:57:08
  So yeah, that's OK. So and input.
• 1:57:12
  One more mutual question now coming from from the show, Matt
• 1:57:19
  Michael, who asks, is this the dot and bubble of the Chibnal
• 1:57:25
  era in the sense of they both lean into how this Doctor
• 1:57:30
  differs from other incarnations which you've spoken of and faces
• 1:57:35
  up to the human ignorance of the people that they're trying to
• 1:57:39
  save? When you put it like that, yes.
• 1:57:44
  In any other way you can compare the two, no?
• 1:57:50
  Yeah, I I said to Matt that obviously the series 11
• 1:57:54
  historicals, the the first female doctor, this is obviously
• 1:57:58
  a story that you can tell. And I spoke about how Russell's
• 1:58:03
  P Davies's approach is a bit more electorical in the sense of
• 1:58:08
  Dom and bubble. You could link to perhaps
• 1:58:10
  midnight or gridlock. You know, these issues are we'll
• 1:58:15
  put them in a far away space land so that we can sort of draw
• 1:58:20
  parallels with Monday issues. But I think Christian Moretakes,
• 1:58:25
  I mean, we can argue which approach is better, but I think
• 1:58:28
  it's a bolder perhaps approach in the sense of let no, let's
• 1:58:33
  link it to real world human home.
• 1:58:37
  And yeah, I think it's really successful in that record and it
• 1:58:42
  makes the audience think and it perhaps makes people a bit more
• 1:58:46
  uncomfortable. Going back to what so I said
• 1:58:48
  about the German audience. Well, it makes them a bit more
• 1:58:51
  uncomfortable and maybe a bit less entertained.
• 1:58:56
  But then that goes to the questions of which what stopped
• 1:59:00
  his job? Is it to entertain more inform
• 1:59:03
  as as David Lambert or Sydney Riemann or whoever once said?
• 1:59:07
  It's best it's supposed to sort of walk the tightrope between.
• 1:59:10
  The two So I'm now left with two members of the ham fan, one very
• 1:59:17
  pro Christian Malera and one very anti.
• 1:59:21
  So which one would you like to hear?
• 1:59:23
  Let's. Start with Anthony.
• 1:59:24
  Let Anthony. Anthony.
• 1:59:26
  Good on Anthony Christian, most greatest enemy.
• 1:59:31
  So the one of the other alongside myself, youngest
• 1:59:37
  members of the Ham fam, we will know him as Mr. Lou Malloy has a
• 1:59:44
  few questions for us. One of them would just kind of
• 1:59:48
  go into a little bit being, do we think that pure historicals
• 1:59:54
  work well and it should be more prominent in this era?
• 2:00:00
  Michelle, obviously the idea being that the Series 11
• 2:00:03
  historicals were tiptoeing around that idea and they've
• 2:00:07
  never quite did it. Do we think that something they
• 2:00:10
  should have done? Look, that's a stupid question.
• 2:00:12
  There are no pure historicals. Rosa has a time traveller in it.
• 2:00:16
  No, no, he's not saying all that he's saying should be a BIM or
• 2:00:20
  could be a BIM or do we want Befila to do to do them?
• 2:00:24
  I would love for an era to do pure historicals.
• 2:00:27
  I understand as an entertainment programme for children today
• 2:00:32
  that they don't. I think there's possibly an
• 2:00:35
  argument that this story, with a bit of retooling could have
• 2:00:40
  been. I think you mean the in my
• 2:00:44
  opinion, Madam, you need to be a person from another time to be
• 2:00:49
  in Rosa to show that this isn't just an issue of 50s Alabama.
• 2:00:54
  This is bad critique when people that will come up again and
• 2:00:57
  again. And I think you can't just have
• 2:01:02
  the Doctor turn up because obviously because of the actions
• 2:01:05
  in the Coast Monument, the TARDIS is being all funny, which
• 2:01:09
  is why it's taught me there, you can't have the Doctor land, yes,
• 2:01:15
  and Ryan in that environment on purpose.
• 2:01:18
  Because I just think that's really a bad sign for the
• 2:01:22
  character. The Doctor can be a little bit
• 2:01:25
  oblivious to social cues, but not that.
• 2:01:28
  I'm talking about the Shakespeare code now.
• 2:01:31
  Perhaps. Yeah, it's.
• 2:01:32
  Just act as. If you, Ryan, just act as if you
• 2:01:36
  own the place. Well, everyone shouting me
• 2:01:39
  inward and. I mean, probably the what
• 2:01:42
  happens to Ryan is what would have happened to Martha, but you
• 2:01:45
  just can't imagine it, can you? Someone just coming up and
• 2:01:47
  whacking her in the face. Exactly.
• 2:01:49
  Yeah. And then obviously Demons of a
• 2:01:53
  Punjab, we think it's going to be historical, but not because
• 2:01:57
  the whole point is even aliens look down at the human race and
• 2:02:02
  go, what are these idiots doing? You know, if clowns fighting
• 2:02:07
  over their social differences and all you're a different
• 2:02:11
  religion for my woman. All this, you know, you may
• 2:02:14
  behave for Jarian looking down at people and going why are you
• 2:02:18
  doing that? You know.
• 2:02:19
  But like regardless, I wouldn't take them out because the scene
• 2:02:23
  where they take away Prem's soul at the end is one of the most
• 2:02:29
  emotionally beautiful moments and Doctor Who.
• 2:02:32
  Yes. So I don't think that one could
• 2:02:33
  be either. But with the trajectory of a new
• 2:02:37
  Who series, you know, we're going towards the end, we're
• 2:02:40
  building up and up and up. We've been to, we've been to
• 2:02:44
  meet Rosa Parks and there's an alien, we've been to the
• 2:02:47
  partition of India and there's an alien.
• 2:02:51
  We've been to, we're going to a witch trial.
• 2:02:53
  There must be an alien exclamation for everything.
• 2:02:57
  I think it'll be a really interesting story if there were
• 2:03:01
  no aliens, if it was just man's inhumanity for man, or in this
• 2:03:08
  case inhumanity for woman. And I think it'll be a really
• 2:03:12
  nice build up for the series to go.
• 2:03:15
  We're going to keep game aliens and then for the final
• 2:03:18
  conclusion to be a pretty devastating no.
• 2:03:22
  Sometimes people just kill other people and I think that'll be a
• 2:03:26
  really nice sudden jump for this to to come to and I obviously
• 2:03:32
  taking the more acts out. You have to kind of rewrite most
• 2:03:36
  of the back half of this. I just think that'll be such a
• 2:03:39
  really bold decision for them to make, to go no, sometimes people
• 2:03:45
  just kill other people. Go read The witch hunters by
• 2:03:49
  Steve Lyons then that's the first Doctor past Doctor
• 2:03:52
  adventure. It's Doctor Who's take on the
• 2:03:54
  Crucible. It's this story done in Salem
• 2:03:57
  without aliens in it, and it is brilliant and it.
• 2:04:00
  Is yeah, I mean a bold female we can't get get.
• 2:04:03
  Hey kids, if you want this without, which is try reading
• 2:04:07
  some dusty old book that'll cost you £600 on eBay to buy.
• 2:04:11
  You know, I think it'd be nice for the television show to to
• 2:04:15
  come to that conclusion. And I think we're.
• 2:04:18
  Adults. We're adults, right?
• 2:04:20
  Always. We would pretend to be adults.
• 2:04:22
  I think adults want pure historicals.
• 2:04:25
  Yeah, I think kids want pure historicals.
• 2:04:27
  I don't think the kids do, but. Monsters in Doctor Who.
• 2:04:30
  Yeah, if, if you can write an interesting enough story.
• 2:04:34
  I mean, yeah, we've had stuff like 73 yards, which is sort of,
• 2:04:39
  you know, monster, right? Even though it's not a pure
• 2:04:42
  historical in that way. It's, you know, it's pushing
• 2:04:45
  those boundaries more. I think one day it can come.
• 2:04:49
  It just won't be the norm, you know.
• 2:04:51
  Oh, I don't think. I mean, it could have.
• 2:04:54
  I don't think it will. Look how celebrated Black Orchid
• 2:04:58
  somehow is all those years later just because it's not got a
• 2:05:02
  monster in it, basically. I play some rules, kids.
• 2:05:05
  Yeah, Hooray. No.
• 2:05:07
  The greatest monster of human cruelty.
• 2:05:10
  Yeah. OK.
• 2:05:15
  Now this next question comes from Blue Malloy.
• 2:05:19
  Listeners can detect at home what his opinion is.
• 2:05:23
  I'm going to leave his question out word for word, so these are
• 2:05:26
  not my opinions. Do you prefer your historicals
• 2:05:31
  boring like the Chibnul ones or more exciting and watchable like
• 2:05:37
  Russell T babies? I prefer them not boring like
• 2:05:42
  the Chris Chibnul ones. I think there's a place for a
• 2:05:46
  celebrity historical. I think we should have had a
• 2:05:49
  couple. I think by the time we're
• 2:05:52
  getting into Series 678 with enough, by the time we're doing,
• 2:05:57
  you know, Robot of Sherwood and we're doing Is Robin Hood a myth
• 2:06:01
  as a Hollywood blockbuster on a BBC budget, It's just like, oh,
• 2:06:04
  fuck off, do some proper history now.
• 2:06:07
  Showing the true horrors of history, showing the the true
• 2:06:12
  indignities of what happened in history is scarier than
• 2:06:16
  anything, anything those celebrity historicals in RTV and
• 2:06:20
  Mafia dished out to us. This is absolutely the approach
• 2:06:24
  they should be going down. Of course with monsters.
• 2:06:27
  But yeah, no, no, no, Hollywoodising history is
• 2:06:32
  actually, it's a, it's picture book history, you know, it's
• 2:06:34
  Victory of the Daleks. It's it's literally a Bank
• 2:06:38
  Holiday movie history. You don't really learn anything.
• 2:06:42
  Churchill was a fucking monster and they glorify him in that
• 2:06:45
  episode like you wouldn't believe.
• 2:06:47
  Nobody's been glorified here. No, I think this is absolutely
• 2:06:51
  approach they should be going down.
• 2:06:53
  Yeah. And I think it's important to
• 2:06:54
  show that be celebrities. You know, how do you get to be a
• 2:06:59
  historical celebrity by being king of the world, but by being
• 2:07:05
  a often, by being a ruthless person who would do anything
• 2:07:10
  that it takes to get into power. You know, history is written by
• 2:07:14
  the winners. Or how do you win by doing or
• 2:07:16
  not killing them? Colonialisation and all that
• 2:07:20
  sort of thing, you know, And that Hawks back to Marco Polo
• 2:07:25
  or, you know, the Royals in the massacre.
• 2:07:28
  You know, these people got to where they are by doing a lot of
• 2:07:32
  unsavourable things to become historical figures.
• 2:07:36
  So I think that's something that the show's gonna have to reckon
• 2:07:39
  with going forward, is that people sometimes become famous
• 2:07:43
  by doing multiple things, both good and bad, you know, whilst
• 2:07:48
  we talk about. Luke Malloy, I mean, it's worth
• 2:07:51
  noticing, sorry, mentioning that, you know, he is one of
• 2:07:55
  those people that has gone back and watched the Christian
• 2:07:57
  Chibnorier. He recently watched, you know, a
• 2:07:59
  famously hated story, essentially the cyber and the
• 2:08:02
  timeless children and had the best fucking time watching it.
• 2:08:06
  He said, Oh my God, what was I going on about?
• 2:08:08
  He watched the Halloween apocalypse and he went, what a
• 2:08:10
  stunning season opener after ratting on it at the time, you
• 2:08:14
  know, in the wake of RCD 2. So it's worth noting, you know,
• 2:08:17
  that his angry opinions from nine months ago were in fact pre
• 2:08:22
  Series 2, where things have shifted slightly, should we say?
• 2:08:27
  Yeah. And then that'll be the worse
• 2:08:29
  than ever. And then Stephen Moffat 2 will
• 2:08:32
  be the worse than ever Men Christian or two will be the
• 2:08:35
  worst than ever. That's right.
• 2:08:37
  And then and then Claude, Claude of Ward One, as we discussed at
• 2:08:41
  the end of the last Christmas, will be here.
• 2:08:44
  That'll be the worst than ever, but OK.
• 2:08:48
  And the last one, which we've kind of done a little bit
• 2:08:50
  already, is, is it worth for people, if people don't think
• 2:08:55
  this episode is successful, is it worth picking up the target
• 2:08:59
  novel? Absolutely it is.
• 2:09:01
  I mean, it's just a good read as well.
• 2:09:03
  Yeah. Like it's, it's a very well
• 2:09:05
  written book. Joy Wilkinson says that she has
• 2:09:07
  no idea who Terence Dix is and what a Terence Dix target
• 2:09:11
  novelisation is. So she's not trying to take any
• 2:09:13
  kind of a style. She just wants to take the the
• 2:09:16
  episode that she produced, sorry, wrote and write a really
• 2:09:22
  great novel of it. And she succeeds.
• 2:09:24
  She bolsters out all the characters.
• 2:09:27
  She goes into more of the history.
• 2:09:29
  She, oh, plays that atmosphere like a fine wine.
• 2:09:33
  Oh no, fine wine's probably not a great choice.
• 2:09:36
  Of playing that fine wine. It's a great way, it's a great
• 2:09:41
  read, it's a good horror book, it's a good history book, it's a
• 2:09:44
  great character book, and it's got an appearance of two wenches
• 2:09:49
  on the last page that some people seem to like Luke, as a
• 2:09:53
  fan of the Moffat era, probably would like.
• 2:09:56
  Yeah, well, that's the conclusion to take from the
• 2:09:58
  Witchfinders. Everyone cool women.
• 2:10:01
  You don't like wenches? That's right.
• 2:10:04
  I think that's the message in this episode.
• 2:10:06
  Only Clara and. Me only Clara and me.
• 2:10:10
  All the rest are wonderful. Yeah.
• 2:10:14
  And so now we're done with Luke Malloy's toxic masculinity
• 2:10:19
  negativity. They don't like women.
• 2:10:22
  See, that's what it is. All these women involved in
• 2:10:24
  this, all these stories about women, you know, women in, you
• 2:10:28
  know, playing the dock. So he's just like, incredible
• 2:10:30
  sexist. That's the trouble.
• 2:10:31
  Burn him. Burn him, and for now, we'll get
• 2:10:35
  him to nice to tell us what he was.
• 2:10:38
  One of the Ham Fam's most prominent Chimney Era fans.
• 2:10:44
  If that's so prominent, he's started his own Christian
• 2:10:48
  Malira. Watch your own podcast with me
• 2:10:51
  on on on his excellent What's in the Box show.
• 2:10:56
  I mean, a big show. You've been amazing.
• 2:10:59
  You've been amazing tonight. But I mean, he's got Jeff
• 2:11:02
  Goddard in his arsenal, all right?
• 2:11:05
  We we've got some big, big shoots to fill here.
• 2:11:09
  Look who hasn't had Jeff Goddard in the arsenal.
• 2:11:13
  At some point. We can only hope at some point,
• 2:11:16
  yeah. But Jim has some questions for
• 2:11:20
  us. Number one, was Joe
• 2:11:23
  disappointed? But we didn't have another
• 2:11:27
  female doctor straight off to Joe.
• 2:11:31
  I understand why they didn't because of the reaction.
• 2:11:37
  And I think we did have another female doctor straight after we
• 2:11:40
  had so. So we have had two and there's a
• 2:11:45
  suggestion of a third now with Billie Piper at the end of the
• 2:11:49
  reality or, or whatever was going on there it no, I think it
• 2:11:54
  now it she was in the role for five years.
• 2:11:58
  She was absolutely a doctor. She's adored by lots of people,
• 2:12:01
  whether people will consider that or not, which means a woman
• 2:12:06
  can always be the doctor now. So it didn't need to be straight
• 2:12:09
  after, but it's always a possibility now.
• 2:12:12
  Yeah, I think be it's going to be a lose lose either way
• 2:12:20
  because if as they did, they replaced her with a male or
• 2:12:25
  Doctor, people were concerned, people were going to say, well,
• 2:12:28
  that was a failure. We'd have to go back to it being
• 2:12:31
  a man. And if she'd been replaced by a
• 2:12:34
  female Doctor, people, certain people on the Internet work on,
• 2:12:39
  Oh my God, we're going to have female Doctors, whatever.
• 2:12:41
  We never couldn't have a male Doctor again.
• 2:12:43
  So, you know, they would kind of stuck whatever they've done.
• 2:12:47
  Obviously they I'm sure at the time they didn't think it was
• 2:12:51
  going to be David Tennant again. But you know, let's say they've
• 2:12:55
  gone straight to shooting that one, for example.
• 2:13:00
  I'm sure a lot of people would have thought that.
• 2:13:03
  And he also says, Do you have any future female Doctor Carl
• 2:13:07
  Stein recommendations? There are obvious ones,
• 2:13:12
  unfortunately. Like I think Julian Anson is a
• 2:13:15
  stunning actress and I think she would make an incredible Doctor,
• 2:13:19
  looking a bit like she does in Sex Education over a fabulous
• 2:13:23
  quiff of white hair. She'd look amazing in the
• 2:13:27
  TARDIS, but she wouldn't do it. She's too big for us now.
• 2:13:32
  Yeah, yeah. The, the, the obvious choices.
• 2:13:34
  Tilda Swinton, of course, would be absolutely amazing.
• 2:13:38
  I mean. I would love to see Joanna
• 2:13:41
  Lumley now as an old woman playing the doctor.
• 2:13:44
  It's a sort of hoity toity upper class jolly hockey.
• 2:13:49
  Yeah, it should be, right. An action theme.
• 2:13:52
  And it's just like. I think what we're learning here
• 2:13:54
  is don't have me cast this role. Surprise me there'll.
• 2:13:57
  Just be people. You've been on the television
• 2:13:59
  with me. Like an unknown, an unknown, you
• 2:14:02
  know, but but somebody that that is kind of niche has appeal
• 2:14:09
  because they're unlike anything we've seen before.
• 2:14:12
  That's a bit broad, but that's what I'd go for.
• 2:14:14
  Yeah, I think one of my personal choices who would have been
• 2:14:19
  interested if you'd come directly after Jovi, because I
• 2:14:22
  think he's someone who's also been in a lot of those IPB
• 2:14:26
  Sunday night drama type shows. I quite like the actress Gemma
• 2:14:31
  Whelan. Do you know who that is?
• 2:14:33
  I do. Who obviously has quite a range
• 2:14:37
  on her something, you know, something like her role in the
• 2:14:40
  Game of Thrones, her role in that versus her role in
• 2:14:45
  something like upstart Crow, the Ben Elton David Mitchell
• 2:14:52
  Blackadder esque Shakespeare sitcom.
• 2:14:56
  I think they're two sort of very different, all kinds of roles.
• 2:15:00
  And yeah, she's met with who I've liked, who I've wanted to
• 2:15:04
  see be in it for years. She's not been in it.
• 2:15:07
  Well, she's obviously the lady Meddling Monk, obviously, which
• 2:15:12
  fans might remember her from, which we'd probably have to do
• 2:15:16
  some stupid exclamation for because someone would go, hey,
• 2:15:21
  she's the Meddling Monk, lady, what?
• 2:15:24
  What are you doing here? But I think once they get around
• 2:15:27
  those nerds, they I think I think that'd be an interesting
• 2:15:31
  choice from someone who's been in a lot of those similar shows.
• 2:15:38
  Oh, Jim also asks was fully companions too many.
• 2:15:45
  I don't know if he's referring to this episode specifically or
• 2:15:48
  the whole. I think they can do it extremely
• 2:15:52
  well. I don't think they always do it
• 2:15:54
  extremely well. I've watched Diadi recently and
• 2:15:57
  all three companions get a nice slice of the pie in that.
• 2:16:00
  I've met Praxeus recently. All three companions get stuff
• 2:16:03
  to do in that. So I think the better writers
• 2:16:07
  divvy out the episode. But God in 45 Minutes is really
• 2:16:12
  tough. And these chipnal episodes, they
• 2:16:14
  do have big guest class as well. So it's hard to characterize and
• 2:16:18
  give development to all of those guest cast characters.
• 2:16:21
  Tell a story and give four regular characters something to
• 2:16:25
  do. The fact that they got away with
• 2:16:27
  it as many times as they did I think is a bit of a miracle
• 2:16:30
  actually. But the usually somebody is
• 2:16:33
  Nyssa in the TARDIS asleep with the Delta Wave Augmenta.
• 2:16:38
  Yeah, I, I actually think this episode does quite well.
• 2:16:43
  Obviously it's difficult because we've got 2 pretty big guest
• 2:16:46
  actors in this and obviously Willa 1/3 character in there as
• 2:16:51
  well. So I think it's bear in mind
• 2:16:53
  that challenge. I think all all three companions
• 2:16:58
  get something nice to to do once you've.
• 2:17:00
  So yeah, it's just pretty pivotal setting up her
• 2:17:06
  character's journey throughout the years in this one.
• 2:17:09
  Graham will get some nice, you know, comedy moments.
• 2:17:11
  And Ryan obviously has that, has that back and forth with James
• 2:17:16
  and has to do a lot of physical work.
• 2:17:19
  But yeah, I think, you know, a lot of television shows have
• 2:17:24
  managed to do 45 minute episodes where there were four lead
• 2:17:30
  actors in, you know, it's not a huge, a huge ask.
• 2:17:35
  Now, obviously Doctor Who doesn't do that as much.
• 2:17:39
  Might you say? It's not like in series one they
• 2:17:42
  were going to bring, you know, Mickey and Jackie Tyler on the
• 2:17:47
  TARDIS with Rose at the same time and do all those different
• 2:17:51
  dynamics. It would probably be quite
• 2:17:54
  crowded. But I think if you wanted to do
• 2:17:57
  3 people and the Doctor, you could do that and we can argue
• 2:18:03
  whether this ever does it well or not.
• 2:18:06
  I think it's interesting that they cut back to three during
• 2:18:10
  the flux, obviously, because there's so much going on in the
• 2:18:14
  flux. It's like, you know, what choice
• 2:18:17
  do we have? But yeah, I I think it can be
• 2:18:21
  done just and is done really well in this episode.
• 2:18:25
  Just as Hussein maybe not balanced over the trajectory
• 2:18:31
  piece 2 series as well as we would like them to by the time.
• 2:18:36
  We get to power the Doctor, we've got Ice and Tegan in there
• 2:18:39
  as well. Obviously.
• 2:18:40
  Dance there for a bit. Graham's back, Kate.
• 2:18:43
  Stewart The. Masters technically a companion
• 2:18:46
  too, because he gets an awful lot to do in that story.
• 2:18:49
  So you know what I mean? It's it's a, it plagues the era
• 2:18:53
  too many characters, but I, I think they do a pretty solid job
• 2:18:59
  overall. And it again, it's that that
• 2:19:01
  idea of a family going out into space together, which is the
• 2:19:04
  what they're going for. And I think that is a good
• 2:19:06
  instinct. Yeah.
• 2:19:08
  And then we have one final, final life question to end on
• 2:19:14
  from Jim, which is would Joe like to be in the position line
• 2:19:21
  with him where he's offered a life with King James at the end
• 2:19:26
  of the episode? Certainly not, no.
• 2:19:29
  I would like to be in the position of King James with the
• 2:19:34
  power, so I'll force Ryan to be my sex slave and protect her.
• 2:19:41
  Yeah, well, I'm I'm glad that that's another vital lesson that
• 2:19:46
  this episode if you see someone who have less or feelings
• 2:19:51
  towards don't don't burn them at the staples.
• 2:19:55
  I'm in the river. Just make.
• 2:19:57
  Them. Use in your place in society.
• 2:20:01
  That's that's what Christian came to the show for.
• 2:20:05
  I realized that statement, you know, when Ryan being a person
• 2:20:08
  of colour, I've gotten so many uncomfortable areas.
• 2:20:11
  Yeah, talk about fucking colonial horrors.
• 2:20:15
  Oh my God. Yeah, that's the real, that's
• 2:20:18
  the real horror. That's.
• 2:20:20
  Right. I'll just tell you.
• 2:20:21
  I'll just say Ryan Joy himself, all right, OK.
• 2:20:24
  Yeah, but that's the end of my hand.
• 2:20:28
  Sam questions if you. Wonderful.
• 2:20:31
  I mean, they're a smart bunch, aren't they?
• 2:20:33
  Apart from Luke Malloy of. Course, they were the smart
• 2:20:36
  bunch nine months ago when I asked those questions.
• 2:20:39
  We can only hope they're as smart now as they were.
• 2:20:43
  Yeah, unfortunately, Fraser Gregory, after being executed
• 2:20:46
  today, will no longer be smart ever again.
• 2:20:50
  But given his very unusual opinions, maybe that's not such
• 2:20:54
  a bad thing. Fear for some.
• 2:20:58
  Well, let's push away from the trials and discuss where you and
• 2:21:03
  I are heading next. Good question.
• 2:21:06
  Where are we heading next? I mean, we're kind of running
• 2:21:10
  out doctors at this. Point.
• 2:21:12
  So you're not covered. Who haven't you covered?
• 2:21:14
  We've not done the Second Doctor or the 4th.
• 2:21:19
  We've obviously discussed what we might do for the 7th Doctor
• 2:21:24
  and of course we've not done the latest thermistics yet.
• 2:21:29
  Well, I'm intrigued to do a Second Doctor with you now.
• 2:21:35
  There is a couple of stories I haven't touched at all yet, one
• 2:21:40
  of which has a few surviving episodes and the rest is an
• 2:21:43
  animation. If, if the viewer wants to
• 2:21:50
  listen, viewer, if the listener would like to listen to us to
• 2:21:54
  be, which perhaps it sounds the way we're going to do.
• 2:21:57
  I'm I'm welcome to do that. If if it all like to go to bed,
• 2:22:04
  yeah. We probably started this going,
• 2:22:06
  oh, it's only a 45 minute episode, this won't be too long.
• 2:22:09
  2 1/2 hours later. By the time you finish this
• 2:22:13
  means to this, they're probably already close to me, Doctor, and
• 2:22:17
  they've not actually been born yet, but.
• 2:22:19
  They've watched that six part trout and Story prepared for the
• 2:22:23
  next. Yeah, next, the end of flux, my
• 2:22:27
  beautiful as yet unborn Dr. I am going to make a pun and a
• 2:22:32
  suggestion that we do the faceless ones because it it's it
• 2:22:40
  has never been covered on hamster.
• 2:22:42
  Yeah, I know. Oh, I don't really like it
• 2:22:44
  either. 6 episodes too long. I mean, come on now, we've done
• 2:22:50
  some pretty good stuff lately. It might be interesting to cover
• 2:22:53
  something that that we're not as keen on.
• 2:22:55
  Consideration, consideration, All right.
• 2:22:58
  I'm considering that half an oral contract.
• 2:23:02
  We yes, Yeah. Good night.