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An Interview with Author Christopher Choukalas, MD · This Dad Reads

• Jason Munoz: Welcome back to another episode of This Dad Reads the podcast. I'm your host, Jason, and and today I am joined by a physician, a husband, a father, and as of today, a published author. his book, Even the Darkest Night, is about his journey of hope and healing from paternal depression. It's Dr. Christopher Chukalis. Welcome to the show, Chris. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Thanks, Jason. It's great to be here. Jason Munoz: You bet. So this is the first time we've met. We were chatting a little bit before we started rolling, but I just want to kind of give you opportunity, introduce yourself to ⁓ the listeners, to me. Just tell us a little bit about yourself ⁓ and kind of I guess the ⁓ the main why we're here chatting today. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Sure, well thanks for the opportunity. I life starts much farther back. I'm a man ⁓ and I grew up in the suburbs of Minneapolis. My ⁓ it becomes relevant as the story goes but my parents divorced when I was five and my older brother was six. ⁓ And then we were kind of on the move after that, ⁓ kind of bouncing from one place to the next, and then landed in a fairly prosperous suburb outside of Minneapolis with great schools, and that kind of started my brother and me on our journey of of of achievement and and ⁓ having the expectation that we would go off to college. ⁓ and for me, I I initially thought I would go to graduate school after college to be a psychologist. And I was in a doctoral program ⁓ in Iowa. training to be a college professor and a therapist. And it was just at the very first part of that that I started taking some coursework in psychopharmacology. And that got me really interested in the bio The biopsychological determinants of behavior, and then one thing led to another, and I ended up applying to and getting into medical school. I as it happens, I imagined becoming a neurologist or a psychiatrist. And during medical school, my interests tended more towards the hands-on and the acute. ⁓ for I guess twelve years I was a practicing anesthesiologist and intensive care physician at the University of California in San Francisco and more recently left ⁓ full-time faculty work to join a practice of anesthesiologist in Maroon County. And that transition is sort of tied up in in what the book is about, and and we can talk more about that. But I think you know, when I when I talk about myself, I I find that There are things that that are precious to me that that I always feel relevant ⁓ to mention, but that are I don't know how interesting they are to others. But for me, one of the biggest transitions in life was moving out to California. And I came here for fellowship. So after so you go to medical school, you come out as a physician, but you can't really do anything with that because you don't know anything yet. So you go to residency, and that's where you specialize in your field. So I specialize in anesthesiology and my residency training was at the University of Chicago. And then I completed an additional year to train as an intensive care physician. And that's how I came to the University of California at San Francisco. And I thought, I'll come out here for a year or two, I'll go back to Chicago, I'll join the faculty at the University of Chicago. I loved it there, my life was there. But as you know, Jason, being in California too, you don't, no, nobody comes out here temporarily. And if you get the opportunity to stick around. Jason Munoz: Mm-hmm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: And I ⁓ y you do and and ⁓ then I subsequently met my wife, ⁓ which is a whole other story. ⁓ but ⁓ that that is that that kept us here and so her family's here and and now our family's here. Jason Munoz: That's awesome. Well, as a California guy born and raised, I obviously have a special place in my heart. I was just telling my son, I was like, You don't even know. So many people like California is one of the most famous states in the whole country. So many people have so many thoughts about where we live. But I was like, you get a real experience of it and it's just different when you live here. And I feel like so many places are just different than what they seem. So C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: No, no. Jason Munoz: I'm so glad that you found your way here 'cause I'm a huge fan of this place. I know sometimes it gets a weird it has a weird rap out there. Like people think certain things about it, but unless you're here and you really know what it's like, you really can't talk about it. So I'm so glad that you had a great experience and that you we are neighbors, that we're California neighbors now. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: It's funny, growing up in Minnesota, my main exposure to California was through Hollywood. So I I watched The Prices Right growing up and obviously all the television and movies and whatnot. And and as an older person, I remember watching the O. C. ⁓ and I don't know if you remember that show, but it came out like in the early aughts. And you know, even in the early aughts, they were talking about kale smoothies and just this this this and you think, God, this place is so weird. And then you come and you're like, ⁓ no, I get it. Okay, it's just really lovely. Jason Munoz: Yeah of course. ⁓ Uh-huh. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's pockets of places that I'm sure are like that. But if you're just living your normal life, like it's a huge place too. There's so much diversity here and like all that you see in the media is like such a small microcosm of one cultural type of experience here. So anyway, I could go on and on, but I love this place. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Well, we lived in San Francisco during the pandemic and there was a lot in the national press about sort of what it looked like in San Francisco and the doom spiral and the and the and the drug villages and all that. And and and there, you know, there's some some real problems in San Francisco. But as a person living there, living in the neighborhoods, going to work, going to the parks, going to the shops. Jason Munoz: Right. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: The city just continued to be amazing all the time. And and and so you'd you'd hear these things in the news and it just wildly contrasted with your daily experience of being there. And I imagine you could apply that to lots of places around the country. Jason Munoz: Yeah, exactly. And the world, I would say. Well, as we were talking to before we got started, as you can see, my shelf is full of nerdy stuff. This show is all about kind of just ⁓ meeting with fellow adults, mainly a a lot of the time fellow dads who ⁓ just have a passion for hobbies and a passion for things that really kind of make them tick. And obviously, in hearing where you come from and your story, there's so many things that ⁓ are kind of C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: That's probably right. Jason Munoz: just important to you. But outside of that, I'm really curious and I have a philosophy that I live by is that everybody is a nerd for something. So like what are some things or maybe one other thing that you didn't mention yet that you are like a huge nerd for that maybe people who see your C V might not really know about. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Well, this is definitely not in my C V and my my wife and I were just talking about it with some people that we met. We're we're we're actually traveling right now and and we met another family also from San Francisco as it happens. And somehow we got to talking about the fact that I geek out over civilian aviation. So growing up, I was super into like jet fighters, right? I was positive I was gonna join the Navy and become a pilot and fly these jet fighters and all that. And as an adult, I'm fascinated by Jason Munoz: ⁓ C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: these apps where you can point your phone up at the sky and it'll tell you what the planes are and where they're going and where they're coming from. And I just I I can look at these things and see the thousands of planes that are in the sky at any one time going all over the world. And and of course I'm I'm really into the big ones, right? The 777s and the and the the Airbus A350s, this probably means nothing to you, which is why it was such a great question because I you can tell I just I I'm like sweating. I'm so into it. Jason Munoz: Ha ha. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: So th there's something in my brain about sorting stuff and identifying how something is different from something else. And so there are a lot of things in the world that that that can apply to. And one of them is like, well, that's a 777-200, but that's the 200 ER, and that one flies to Munich, and this one flies to Frankworth Frankfurt, and this is Y. And the other area that that weird obsession applies to is wine. You probably didn't w want to get on the show and talk about wine, but I have, you know, a bunch of wine in the basement. And yes, I like to drink it, but there's a huge part of me that is just really into sorting it and organizing it and understanding, okay, these bottles are over here, this tastes like that, this is how these things are different. And so you you when you have a brain that that just likes to sort and lump and split, these are the things that that it applies to. Jason Munoz: Okay. Hey, I gotta hook you up with my brother-in-law, Jeremiah. Jeremiah, if you were listening, huge wine person. He was also way into planes. But what he's into right now, I don't know if you've heard about this, and I don't know how much of your interest goes into like the actual piloting part. He wanted to like be a pilot. He's gotten into like ⁓ drone stuff, but where you like there's an app and you like see you wear like a gogg a VR goggles and you control a drone and it feels like you're going. So he's like that's what he's geeking out about right now. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Okay, great. ⁓ my gosh. I grew up playing flight simulators on my Apple II C. You can imagine the fidelity was pretty poor back then. I can only imagine what it's like what it's like now. Jason Munoz: Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ so he's like on the weekends flying his drones out, like going through parks. It's really cool. Like my kids loved watching it, so check it out. I mean, maybe that's a slippery slope, but ⁓ maybe your wife will be ⁓ mad at me for saying something. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ yeah. Well, you know, the girls are about to start kindergarten and so what I'm told is that that might allow a little bit more time for hobbies. So we'll see. We'll see what I can get myself in. Jason Munoz: There there is a light, there is a light. My kids are just about to finish second and sixth grade. So I will say they're the time for adult hobbies does expand, which which is nice. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Well and I think for me as an older dad, so I was forty five when they were born and I had, you know, lived a full life in a way. I mean, we traveled a lot and we had dinner parties and you know, I owned a tuxedo and you know, the the the things that that that that you do before you have ki I mean we we i you're living in San Francisco, there's always some holiday party, right? And and I I I I sometimes think Jason Munoz: Okay. Mm-hmm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: it's okay if my kids are my hobby. And I imagine that that is a potential setup for heartbreak when they become thirteen and don't want to have anything to do with you. But but I'm I'm really happy with the the with that situation right now where the in in in part because of how fatherhood began for me, which I'm sure we'll get into. Jason Munoz: Ha ha ha. Mm. Yeah. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: The fact that my kids are my hobby right now, like that that feels okay for me. I d I don't feel like I'm missing out on on one more road bike with the fellas and and and and one more one more flight simulator, so to speak. Jason Munoz: Yeah. And Chris, that is I've never heard someone actually say it like that. That is actually I'm glad I got a doctor on the show because that's such a good way to think about it. Cause me and my wife always talk about like seasons of life, right? Like so we're in a season of raising young children or but that's a great way to think about it because I feel like sometimes people don't understand if they don't have kids or people in your life who that who aren't in that same boat. They just kind of don't get it sometimes, which isn't a bad thing. You can't unless you're in it. ⁓ C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah. Jason Munoz: But that's a great way to think about it. Like my kids are my hobby for this like season of life. And then that's gonna shift as like time goes on. So that's I'm I'm keeping that one. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Well, and I think it's I think it's different too because of my age. And I I know plenty of people I get the sense you're probably younger than I am. And I I have encountered people who had their kids in their twenties, as my parents' generation did. And when I was in my twenties, I was kind of a wreck. I mean, I was going out and drinking and going to school and I had nobody to deal with except for myself. And to think of having kids at that time sounds crazy. Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: But then when you meet these parents who had their kids at 22 and who are now 40 and who are like, hey, empty nest, we're gonna start traveling to Europe for six months, whatever the thing is, right? You're like, ⁓ okay, so that actually would have been okay. Because you imagine when you're 22, you imagine, ⁓ when I'm 40, I'll be so old, I won't be able to do anything anyway. Have kids then, right? But but what you don't know is that when you're 40, you still feel great. So I I've definitely seen as an older adult, as Jason Munoz: Yeah, yeah. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: an older parent. definitely seen both sides of it. Living in a place like San Francisco and Marin County where the majority of parents are older, I I've never really felt like out of place in that way. But it it it is a different perspective, I think, than when you come at it in your early 20s. Jason Munoz: Yeah, and that's a great point too, 'cause again, everybody is gonna h be in their own specific situation, right? And so it's gonna look different for everybody. And I'm kinda splitting the difference. We had our kids when we were thirty and so we but but we went eight years being married without having kids. So I kind of like remember before and then now we're kind of like eleven years later where I'm like basically almost right in the middle right now of like before and after. So C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ okay. Jason Munoz: ⁓ ever it's different for everybody, right? And at certain points you think like, Man, is this season ever gonna be over? And then you look back and like and then time has gone by so fast, which is crazy too. So C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: It is. Something that's that has always been really poignant to me is the people who say things like, You don't know when the last time you're gonna pick your kid up is. And and it just happens one day that they either don't want it or they're too big or whatever. And Jason Munoz: It's very true. Yep. Yes. I know. That's so funny you said that because my son, who's gonna go into junior high, he's still like ⁓ my little guy. He's like my buddy, he loves hanging out with me. I I honestly can't imagine a time where he's gonna be angsty and not want to hang out with me. Like sometimes I kind of hope for it, honestly, but I will I always joke to like hold his hand when we're walking around because my daughter, she'll still let me. It's cute, but he'll be just like, ooh, no. And I said, His name's Jack. I said, Jack, I don't I I held your hand for the last point at some point and I don't remember when that was. Like you need to give me this memory. It was funny. I mean, I was joking with him, but it y it's so true. Like you don't know. You don't know when that's gonna happen. So C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: And then you apply that to all the things, but for me picking them up, that's the one that really sticks out for some reason. Jason Munoz: Yeah, yeah. And my daughter, bless her, she's still she's so little for her age and she's still something to put on her shoulder. So I'm like, Yeah, I'll keep doing it. Like, that's fine. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ exactly. That's great. That's great for your core. Jason Munoz: Right. I know I have the strongest shoulders ever. So now I want to talk about your book. I've got my copy here, Even the Darkest Night. So it's a memoir about your time becoming a father. You talked about that a little bit already. ⁓ there's yours. You got to finish one. That's awesome. ⁓ and the journey you and your wife went on and welcome your twins to the world. And like really shines a light on mental health in men, especially. So C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah, I'm happy to Jason Munoz: Can you just give listeners some insights on kind of what you went through and kind of the backstory and what kind of shaped this book? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah, you bet, Jason. W when I when I was going through the very first weeks and months that the girls were born. So so it when I first think about my experience with with postnatal depression. I th the simple answer is it started after the girls were born and something about the stress of it or the the times we were living in being in the middle of COVID or the fact that it was twins, the fact that I was older and we were tired and sleep deprived, you could easily sort of make a mark in the sand a couple weeks or a couple months after the girls were born, and I just lost my mind and moving forward I was a wreck. I was anxious. I had panic attacks. I had heart rhythm disturbances. I had chest pains. I was up in the middle of the night. And I could give you fifty different stories of just how awful I felt. But when I started writing about it and when I really started to dissect what was going on, I really had to go to before the girls were born. So to set the stage, you know, the girls were born in August of 2020. So we're pre-vaccine pandemic. I'm an intensive care physician at the University of California, San Francisco, so one of the biggest, sickest hospitals in the world. And I'm caring for people who are dying all the time. And we are in a dangerous circumstance. Going to work is fearful. Everybody's afraid. Everything is new and disturbing. Then add to the fact that when the girls came along, we faced a traumatic birth. Lindsay lost 20 units of blood on the operating table. She almost bled to death. She had to have a hysterectomy to stop the bleeding and save her life. So now we've got that kind of as part of the equation. All the while we're also surrounded by ⁓ gray and brown skies from enormous statewide ⁓ wildfires at the time. So you can it y you you probably remember, Jason, the day of the orange sky, every Californian. Jason Munoz: I remember it was terrible. Terrible. I remember I remember that August so specifically. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Okay, so that was the day that we had to leave the house for the first time with the girls to go to the pediatrician. So we're like a week and a half in, and you've had young kids, so you're up and down all night long. You don't know which end is up. And you get up and you look at your watch and it says ten o'clock, but the sky is black. So you don't know if it's ten o'clock at night or ten o'clock in the morning. The disorientation and delirium was intense. We were out of our minds. Jason Munoz: ⁓ my goodness. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: So i yes, postpartum depression is postpartum, but there were all of these things that were happening before and around that. And if you want to go even further back, let's take the fact that I was raised by a single mother. Our parents divorced when I was five. Our dad sort of in our life, but after a few years, remarried, left the state, never to be heard from again. I grew up my whole life in denial that that was something that impacted me. ⁓ he had a bad temper anyway, he wasn't pleasant to be around. We're better off without him. But come on, man, like here I am in the throes of this horrific fatherhood ⁓ panic. And you mean to tell me that my own father abandoning us didn't have anything to do with it? Of course it did. So as I was writing this and and and seeing a therapist and taking medication to feel better, I couldn't help but look even farther back at all of the things that made me who I was as a child and how that transitioned into what I was like as an adult and the ways in which my upbringing really created a setup for this. So yes, it tri was triggered by that by that period. but I think for me and for a lot of people, ⁓ it's so much more. When I say that, I I also mean, you know, there there is some research on postpartum depression in men, and there's not much. ⁓ but what people have written is that there are some risk factors for it. And so when I say this was postpartum, but there were these other things, having depression at baseline, having parents with depression at baseline, witnessing birth trauma, all those things are risk factors. And I had all of them. And I didn't know going into it that it was a thing. And so I didn't think a whole lot about, yeah, I should probably get my head screwed on straight before my kids come. because I I was in denial that any of these things actually impacted me. And so there I was. Jason Munoz: what I really appreciated about this book like it's not like a self-help book necessarily. It's not a yeah, I mean, I know you said you had some background in like psychopharmacology, but it's not like psychiatrist psychologist book. ⁓ It's really a memoir about your story. And I feel like that is what drew me in so much as a reader. Like, guys, I could not put this book down. Like, and it's probably because a lot of ⁓ I'm one of those guys that you talk about later in this book about having just random conversations with. I'm one of those guys who would be like, Yeah, I felt some of that too. So granted, I'm your target audience mo like with this book. But ⁓ I could not put it down. But I think it's just because you're so raw and honest. And I feel like that is so not the norm when it comes to. guys and reading, right? Guys usually read to be enter wildly entertained or to like improve themselves somehow. But I really think that you hone in on your message and the way that it's delivered because it's from you and it's your story. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I really appreciate that comment because the the to me that was the whole point of it. So people have asked, you know, did you write this book as a catharsis to just get this stuff out of you? Or did you write it to try to help people and try to sell books and like create awareness? And the answer is yes and yes. And you could write a book as an academic physician from the perspective of, well, here's the data and here's what happens and here's what it feels like. And And it wouldn't come close to capturing the lived experience of it. And it and it might solve the second issue of like bringing awareness, but it would not solve the first issue of just getting this thing out of me. And so I had no choice but to write it in in that it it it it wasn't like a deliberate ⁓ I'm gonna adopt the style of rawness. It was just this is what's in me and this is what's coming out. And yes, I refined it over time and made edits and all this, but but it just that is that is what came out and and that is what needed to come out to A make me feel better and B create the kind of story that Jason Munoz: Yeah. Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: That I that I think people want to read. I've written academic texts. I'm telling you, nobody reads them. And so it just it it just it just wouldn't, I don't think it would have done a service to the people that that this could reach. The other thing I found, particularly as I started talking to more and more people about it, was that I think people were hungry for something like this. And and by that I mean that I found Jason Munoz: Ha ha ha. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: When I used the words, when I talked about postnatal depression in men, or or postpartum depression in men, I got a lot rather than, geez, what's that? What's the matter with you? I got a lot of, you know, I think I had that, or I think my spouse had that. And there was a lot of support and there was a lot of appetite, I think, for other men to share in that language. And so I didn't have the experience of being shut down by being raw and vulnerable. Instead I had the experience of being raised up, and that only kind of fanned the flames of having that kind of tone in the book. Jason Munoz: Yeah, and I will say you dropped some major truth bombs in here. Like some of the things you say, I'm like, that is dark. And those are things that probably a lot of people think up here, but they don't say out loud or write on a page. So why do you think it was so important to you to be like so brutally honest? And I mean, you touched on it, but like you really went there. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah. Yeah. I just think that it doesn't work. ⁓ my wife is Italian and her family is very emotional. And one of the struggles that she and I have had is that I'm Minnesota Scandinavian and we are not emotional. And she continues to try to show me how a full-lived experience. demands that you feel things deeply, both good and bad. Her family is very ⁓ very ⁓ feels their emotions very powerfully and is not afraid of them and and and puts them out there. And where was I going with that? she says to me ⁓ often, what are you saving it for? Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: What are you saving these feelings for? When are you when is it gonna be okay to feel something? And I think this book from therapy was was a huge start, but I th and and I think this book was a real opportunity for me to To live that full experience in those words. And so again, it was partly healing for me to put it out there in the most brutally honest way that I could. And also, it's for the reader because I think if you come in here with flower petals and and half-truths. I don't think as many people are going to see themselves in it. And I think that there are people out here who feel a lot of the dark things that I felt. And if they read a a soft petaled version of that in my book, they'd be like, ⁓ I'm worse than he is. What I have is worse. We're not the same. I am not validated by what I'm reading here. And ⁓ Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: To the degree to which it's easy to feel guilty and ashamed by feeling the way that I did, and the and the way that some of these other fathers certainly feel, if they're not really seeing the worst version of it, I I don't think that they get the relief that they would get from knowing, ⁓ he really does understand, he really does hear me, this really is for me. This really is what I'm experiencing. And so I I think it just for for so many reasons, I think it just had to be there. Now a different version of that question is like, you know, you reveal a lot of stuff about your family in here. And and did you have to do that? And the answer is I don't know. You know, the stuff about my mother is Something that if she were to read this, she would be probably surprised and upset and disappointed that I saw her as depressed during my upbringing, that I saw her as unable to really raise me. Something you don't know is that she died a couple of months ago ⁓ before ever having had a chance to read the book, before I ever really had a chance to sit and share with her what's in there. And you know, that's just something that I have to live with. That that I I don't I I don't know I think she would have been upset. And on the one hand I now no longer have to live with that because she's gone, but on the other hand, we never had the opportunity to talk about it and find some some common ground or some common understanding about it. Jason Munoz: Sure. I'm so sorry to hear that. Like I feel like that would be a great way to put great way to update in the book at the end somehow. I mean C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah, I maybe maybe the when the second printing comes out. If enough people buy it. ⁓ thank you. Jason Munoz: Yeah, ⁓ my condolences to you. I'm so sorry. I'd feel ⁓ that that that can feel I'm sure that can feel equal parts like unfulfilled and ⁓ I'm that's like a that's so s something tough so tough to wrestle with, I'm sure. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: It's complicated, Jason. I mean I I don't know what your relationship with your parents is like, but you can imagine that for me and you know, ⁓ not having a father that's in the picture and a mother who who I think, you know, has has some challenges. ⁓ you know, her death was was complicated. on the one hand, I don't think she had a happy life the last several years for a whole host of reasons that aren't, you know, that interesting. But her health wasn't good, she was lonely. and She was a hard person to know and a hard person to relate to. And so I I think about this is going farther afield than I had sort of thought, but I I think it's always worth talking about. I I I don't know. I think she always lamented that we weren't closer, but she didn't know how to be closer. And so as I aged and had a family of my own, I think my ability to Jason Munoz: Ha ha. Mm. Sure. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: continue to lead that charge became less and then I I think we just, you know, grew further apart. Jason Munoz: But then isn't that so interesting how I mean all the work that you've gone through to work on yourself, that just never ends because again, life goes on, life changes, people come, people go, your girls came into your life at a different point in your life, your mom left you at a certain point in your life. But you you have to we all still carry on. And like you always get to choose how you show up, and you always get to choose how you impact those around you. And so I feel like those are only gonna make you a better version of yourself in the future as you continue to do the work. I think that's really important to remember because now that's going to inform how you are with your kids for the rest of your lives and the rest of the amount of time that you have with them, right? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I think a lot about that, as I'm sure you do. The the way to to best nurture them. And for somebody that grew up the way I did, I mean, I think we all sort of parent on a pendulum swinging from the things that we think didn't work in our upbringing and then inevitably we overdo it and then they end up in therapy for the opposite reasons that we did. And I and and so you can acknowledge that and say, ⁓ well you do everybody does the best they can and and and you know come up. Hey, but you you can't one can't help but think about well I don't want to yell and I don't want to frighten them and I don't want to you know it Jason Munoz: Mm-hmm. Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: But man, it's really hard. Sometimes they really get on you. I mean, and with twins. ⁓ I mean, ⁓ and twins. ⁓ man, I know. ⁓ try so Because my parents were yellers, you know, my dad. And so, you know, you Jason Munoz: the only way they'll pay attention to me. ⁓ Right. Yeah. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: and it also doesn't work. mean, at the end of the it doesn't achieve the goal. And so I try but that but man, sometimes you just ⁓ Jason Munoz: Mm-hmm. I mean, I'll t I'll have a vulnerable moment right now. Like my son, he bless him, has ADHD and he is just a little firecracker dude. And like when he's not medicated, he's just like a Tasmanian devil. Like, but I love him. I love his personality. And there he will talk your ear off if he lets you. So it's the end of the day. It's bedtime. I'm like saying goodnight to him. And this he doesn't draw it out. It's usually pretty good, but like he was tell he was gonna tell me the super specific thing that I already knew what he was gonna say. And I just said, buddy, I don't care. Like, I don't care. And and he was just like, I know. And so I because I lit I didn't. Like, and I was just trying to show him, like, look, I'm done. We're moving on. And so then I said, okay, but what was it? He's like, well, you said you don't care. So I'm not gonna tell you. He's ⁓ so why did you say that? And I said, Because now I feel bad. Because now I feel like a jerk because I said that to your face. And so we're always learning and it's it's it's we're never gonna be perfect, but it's always C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ I know, but I have said that. I have said that. Jason Munoz: Being willing to admit when you're not and to, you know, ask for forgiveness and try to be better next time. Like yeah. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I have a child that is ⁓ in many ways my mini me. She looks like me. She it it has tendencies like me facial mannerisms and just her sort of intellect and and focus and the way she observes things and always wants to notice and talk about them and so she will. She just Jason Munoz: Ha ha ha. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I I occasionally I just I need you to stop talking. And it feels so bad because she's she's excited about whatever it is she's focusing on, but man, I'm like, ⁓ I gotta stop talking because now we have to get in the car, you know, or whatever it is. And and that but but I I I have to say Jason Munoz: Yeah. Can we have some silence? Yeah. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Even that, as frustrating as it can be, and as disappointing in myself as it as it might feel, light years better than how I felt the first several months of their lives. I mean, it it just it's like night and day. It is so much easier to I don't want to say tolerate because that sounds so harsh, but the the things that are frustrating now are light years easier than the things that were Jason Munoz: ourselves. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Causing me sleeplessness and chest pains and heart palpitations, then. And so I'll take it. I'll take it. Jason Munoz: Yeah, I I agree. I will say I really related to you too in this book. You talk about ⁓ trying to like keep order and try to keep the schedule. And I feel like I related to that so much because there's so little that men can do when their wives go through birth, whether it's traumatic or not. Like my wife was did not have as traumatic traumatic a birth experience as yours, but have the first one was really rough. She struggled with breastfeeding. She sh was healing. It was very intense. and so you want you're trying to be that like this caretaker, right? And like I felt the burden of like making sure that like we were very big on sleep. Like I know you said in your book too. And like I knew the importance of it. And so any sort of deviation in our schedule was like gonna throw it off. And like it was gonna it but you do such a great job of like and there's a lot of perspective there, right? And the work that went into it after. But when you're in it, you're just like, it's so important. ⁓ but I really related to that part of C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: If this happens, then that's gonna happen and I'm certain of it. It's ⁓ if we don't get home, ⁓ god, the times and and the the thing that that was it I didn't know I had a problem. I thought everybody else was the problem. I thought I was trying to keep everything on the tracks and that my wife was overly casual. Jason Munoz: Yes. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: And so this, ⁓ we're gonna go on this hike and we're gonna skip the nap, or we're gonna be out in the evening and we're not gonna come back in time. And even though they cry or they fuss or whatever, we're gonna just keep going because it's fun. Well well, my perspective on this was it isn't fun. So you have this idea that, like, ⁓ we're just gonna go live our lives, but it's not living your life when there's two crying babies in the stroller and you can't actually see straight. And so part of it was like I felt it was my role and my service, and part of it was Jason Munoz: Yeah. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: If if we couldn't have them be rested, if there weren't times where I knew they were asleep, I never had any peace. And so I got so hooked into these sleep advice blogs on Facebook. And ⁓ I don't know if you got into these when your kids were young, but man, they are specific and they are rough. And it wake them up at 315, put them down at 562. If they don't go to bed, then we'll go to five fifty. You know, just so sp and and I told you about. The airplanes and the wine. So you know that level of specificity, I drank that like water. And so trying to then enforce that onto a wife who wants to have some joy in this and some spontaneity and some fun and some lightness, it was just clash, clash all the time. And so Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: the the frustration that that caused was a whole other layer and and and created a whole other set of issues with our relationship that ultimately needed repair as well. So it it it it was really a multifaceted process for me, getting over my own anxiety, but also finding a way to to kind of regain that trust from Lindsay, from my wife, that that Jason Munoz: Mm-hmm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: That it's not gonna be like that anymore, that I'm not going to smother your joy of parenting with my with my anxiety. ⁓ it was awful. Jason Munoz: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know when now I'm thinking back on it and 'cause me and my wife and I were we were both like that. Like we were both trying to do the same thing. So I'm sure from the outside people thought we were insane. Cause like we didn't see people for like a year or maybe more because there was bedtime nap. Like we had like it was a schedule, right? So, but I also think it's so good that you basically point out that we like think that we have control. Like we're trying to enforce our control on something that is literally outside of it. ⁓ and we can only really do our best. So that's such a good reminder. Even today when there's ⁓ things are a lot more loosey goosey now 'cause they're older, but you know, there still need to be rules. There still needs to be, you know, structure and that's what kids thrive in. We everybody knows that. But ⁓ I just really think that ⁓ when you're out s when you're in it you don't see it that way sometimes. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: No, y because it's it's for me at the worst of it, I needed to control it. Or I couldn't breathe. And so the fact that I mean plenty of people said, ⁓ they're babies, you can't control it, you just have to ride the wave. Uh-uh. That is not how I was going out. And of course now, I mean that to hear you say, you're like, well, of course, like none of this is controllable, right? I mean you can set parameters and this and that, but it's like forget it. Jason Munoz: Mm. Yeah. Right. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: But at the time I I couldn't I couldn't hear that. And ⁓ at the time I could only continue barreling forward with my need for it to be a certain way. And only if these rules were followed, only then would peace reign. And and anything short of that and I was just not gonna be able to function. Jason Munoz: Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. Sure. Well, I don't want to give too much of the book away, but without spoiling anything, if you will, obviously you're here today. You've gotten help you've gotten help. You're a work in progress. You wouldn't be where you are without having to, you know, kind of cross some sort of ⁓ bridge, if you will. But kind of what was the impetus or what was the thing that really made you realize that there could be a better way and that made you kind of start doing the work? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Great question. I it it came to me from Lindsay, like most great things in my life. And I if you I don't know if in your copy ⁓ the dedication is there, but I dedicated the book to Lindsay who saved my life. And what I mean by that is that she came to me after a a run with a friend of hers who happens to be a psychotherapist, a psychologist. And on this run she was basically complaining to her friend for an hour about how terrible I was being. And her friend said, You know, it sounds like he's got post Part of depression. And Lindsay said, basically, the thing that everybody says, men can have that. And she's like, Yeah, you know, look it up. I mean, I'm sure they can. I think, I think it was kind of like, sure, why not? I don't I don't know that she had ever seen patients with it, ⁓ because I think she mostly cares for kids now. But ⁓ and so Lindsay came home bounding up the stairs. Jason Munoz: Mm-hmm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: w with with her characteristic unbridled optimism that that I was gonna hear this and realize, ⁓ well the great, now we know why I've been such a jerk and and now I'm gonna be able to get help and get better. But remember, I didn't think I was being a jerk. And so when she came up and said this, all I could think of was like, great, now one more fucking thing. one more thing. Why do I have to have something? Why can't this just be terrible and you be unhelpful? And that's just how it is. So I I did not take to it right away. I I'm sure I was silent and said, yeah, sure, fine, whatever. But you know, when I was in graduate school to be a psychologist, you know, you you kind of undergo therapy as a part of the the supervision process. And they don't call it that, but but you know, you you have these counseling experiences with kind of pretend ⁓ patients and then you videotape them and ⁓ a a psychologist on faculty goes over them with you and then they're basically not really critiquing your technique. They're like, Okay, so what's going on here? What's wrong with you? What was your childhood like? And so you get into and and and and I just remember there being such a relief to be able to unload certain kinds of things in that setting. And I thought, at the very least, if I find a therapist, I can unload some of these things that are making me feel so awful. And so that's how it started. And so Lindsay's sister, helped me find a therapist and and you know everything was online then. So this was January or February of twenty-one. So nobody's doing anything in person. So I'm calling these people and we're having these we're having these online, you know, or or or or telephone interviews just to to kind of feel each other out to see who who would be a good fit, who's got time in their schedule. And and we came across somebody that that just from the minute I started talking with them, I knew like this was someone I could I could unburden myself to. And this was someone who knew how to challenge me. And so I I stuck with him and he stuck with me, and we still see each other ⁓ from time to time and ⁓ and and that's where it started. It started with a run with a friend and serendipity and and just kind of Being at our wit's end and and having nowhere else to turn. Jason Munoz: Sure. You know, maybe someone's reading this book or giving it to someone else or ⁓ and they kind of have that aha moment of their own. Maybe they they relate to what you went through, relate to, you know, this whole story, ⁓ and they want to seek their own help, but may it can maybe feel like you said it's one other thing that now I have to go do. So if you are for people if people are struggling to kind of take that next step. Like what is your advice to them? Like where do you think they should go and where should they start if they think that therapy is a good first step for them too? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: This is a great question. And the first thing I'm gonna say is if you are even thinking about it, just do it. Find a way. Find the time. Because the the yield of of just being able to unburden yourself is so powerful. And to to be able to sit in the presence of another human while i i in in a supportive way, in a way that is attuned to what you need. There there's there's few experiences in life more powerful than being truly seen and understood and accepted by another human being. So first thing, do it. Second thing, how? Well ⁓ Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Nobody's paying me to say this and I've never tried it myself, but there are online resources now that didn't exist five years ago. If you've ever listened to a podcast in the last five years, you've heard ads for online therapy referral services. I cannot vouch for them and I don't get a penny for for saying it, so I'm not even gonna say the names, but you know the names. I can't imagine that. For whatever the the the sort of quality ⁓ and availability ⁓ of of those people on that platform, I can't imagine that that that's gonna be worse than not getting help at all. ⁓ it has to be better. I also think ⁓ asking friends, asking your spouse's friends, because women go to therapy at rates that are easily double that of men, so women are gonna know therapists. ⁓ but your friends might know people. I think an online search of therapists in my town. ⁓ many therapists do take health insurance, many do not. So even though there are federal and state health insurance ⁓ mental health insurance parity laws, ⁓ it is surprisingly common that you will have a hard time getting insurance coverage ⁓ directly through your therapist. So however, if you're you know an Aetna patient or Blue Cross patient or whatever, ⁓ you can go to those ⁓ providers' websites. sites to search for psychotherapists. So they do include psychiatrists and therapists, acupuncturists and massages, a whole range of therapists, but but but they they do include that in their database of of providers to search for. So that's a great way to start if if health insurance is important. And And even for those that don't take insurance directly, those providers can supply you a bill that you can then retrospectively go back to your insurance carrier with, and they will often end up covering some portion of those bills. So ⁓ you know I say that because there's obstacles to this. First of all, you gotta find the time, ⁓ you gotta find the person, you gotta pay for it, and then you gotta actually intimately participate in it. Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Well, I can't tell you how to do that. You have to just be there and be honest and do it. But those other things, they're real obstacles. I do think virtual therapy is almost as good as in person, because I've done it both ways. And knowing that you can do it from anywhere means you're never gonna miss an appointment. And I think that's that's a real advance. ⁓ having the online referral platforms, I think, can only help. Jason Munoz: Ha ha ha C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ but the cost is still a a major impediment for a lot of people and and that's you know, that's tough to get around. Jason Munoz: Sure. And I think at a certain point I would encourage or challenge people to just invest in yourself. Like if see it as an investment in your own health. Like if you got sick and had to go to the doctor, you wouldn't blink an eye, you would make it happen. I think in a similar vein, you gotta take care of yourself, right? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I don't know what I would have done without Matthew. I don't I I maybe there would have been some different person, but I I just think the way I was was so untenable. And we would have Lindsay and I would have divorced, I would have been out of the kids' lives because I without getting better, I don't I mean, the idea of being a a co-parent. Jason Munoz: Mm. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: ⁓ it was untenable. Imagine being a solo parent, you know. ⁓ it w it would have been and then I would have just been repeating the intergenerational trauma that started with my father, you know, so many years ago. And and imagine the shame around all I mean, just you you you can see the layers of this in the spiral here. I y y you have to, you have to get help. It it just there's no Jason Munoz: Mm. Sure. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: There's no other way to do it that if you're feeling the way I was feeling, you simply I I there was no way for me to get out of it without help. No way. Jason Munoz: I think the best way to end this episode, Chris, is to sum up your words for you. Cause I you say it so well. In your book, you say giving a name to what you had helped you gain power over it. And you believe the same can be true if you or a loved one is among the millions of men every year who have a new baby at home and don't quite know why they're so miserable. Thank you so much for this book, for what I think it's going to do for men and families and wives everywhere. I cannot recommend it enough. Congratulations on the work that you did and the work that you put into this book too. I know you did a lot of work on yourself, but this also takes a lot of work too. So congratulations there. And I do want to apologize because at the top of the show I said, you are now a published author. You have been published academically already. So please forgive me for that. ⁓ Different kind of publication, right? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Super different. ⁓ couldn't be more different. And I I really I really thank you for bringing what you brought to this hour together. I I'd said earlier in a different context that there is nothing quite so powerful as feeling seen and understood by another person. And the the things that you've pulled out of this book make me feel seen. It make me it makes me feel like you you really that you really saw what I was going through and saw what I tried to do with the writing and and that means a lot to me. So thank you. Jason Munoz: You're very welcome. And Chris, before we go, are you doing any events around the release of this book? If people want to maybe talk to you in person, are you I I know the launch is just kind of kicking off as of today, so where can people see you if they want? C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: Yeah, great question. So the launch event is tonight, ⁓ June 2nd, ⁓ at the Book Passage in Cordamadeiros. That's our local independent book ⁓ store that that hosts authors from really from all over the world. I feel really fortunate that that they saw something in this book to invite me to do it there. And I will be on there will be an ⁓ some other ⁓ opportunities to chat. So tomorrow, June 3rd, on Reddit, I'll be doing an AMA and ask my Anything on the pre-datit subreddit. So pre-dated ⁓ is for people who are about to become fathers and have questions. So I believe that's gonna start 5 p.m. ⁓ Pacific time, and I'll be there answering questions. ⁓ also next Monday on June 8th, I'll be on K-A-L-W, one of San Francisco's public radio stations. I'll be on their state of the bay ⁓ program at 6. PM that's a live interview, and I believe there's a call-in segment as a part of that. ⁓ so you can go to ⁓ my website, which ⁓ is ChristopherCucalis.com and Jason, I don't know if you'll be able to have that text at the bottom, but on there there's an events or media tab that has that will have links to all of those all of those events. You can click right to it and ⁓ and join me in any of those settings, and then more to come. Jason Munoz: Excellent. And I will definitely link your website in the description of this episode and of this video. Thank you so much again, Chris. This has been honestly a pleasure and I wish you nothing but the best of the book. C.G. Choukalas, MD, MS: I really appreciate that, Jason. I've really enjoyed our time together. Thanks.