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Boys and Men Are Not Exempt · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  I was like, "Nazis are bad." And they were like, "That was, like, 10 years ago, bro." And I'm, like, two blocks from the drop-off, so you're like, "How can I rant in the fastest way possible?"
• 0:10
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this. We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like... "Mom, what's a coup?" during morning carpool.
• 0:26
  Air quality alerts, and yes, you do have to wear deodorant. It's not an advice show. It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.
• 0:38
  And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important. You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show.
• 0:48
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 0:57
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now.
• 1:12
  We just had a fantastic conversation with author, writer Catherine Gezer Morton. She's a mom. She grew up in a commune.
• 1:18
  She has a brand new book called The Story of Your Life: How Social Media Shapes the Way We Experience Everything, which feels pretty fucking correct.
• 1:26
  It is out now from Penguin Random House, wherever you get books, but preferably not from a bunch of assholes. We had a great conversation. Our kids are a little bit older.
• 1:34
  We talked about what that transition's like, whether she posts about her kids, what she thinks about people posting about their kids, all, all of the different things. It was really fantastic.
• 1:44
  She also writes a fantastic column called Brooding for New York Magazine, which I love. You should check it out, but this was a delight. We will hopefully have her back as well.
• 1:52
  [upbeat music] My child ran away last night briefly for the first time ever, and I... First of all, my first reaction was to lock the front door. Uh-huh. And then he came home. Yeah.
• 2:05
  If you want the context, he was grabbing a chocolate chip granola bar, a sec- his second of the night, after I told him, "You cannot have more than one," while I was taking dinner out of the oven.
• 2:15
  And I had made this dinner with my own two little hands. And I said- You keep making that mistake. Yeah. And I said, "Stop that," y- or, "What are you doing?"
• 2:22
  And then he ran off, and I said, "Get back here," and then he ran out the door. And then he came back, and he claimed that he ran away 'cause he was afraid I was going to hit him.
• 2:31
  And f- I don't hit the kids, but I said, "I would love to hit you, honestly. Like, I really would like to, but I, I'm not because we don't, and it doesn't do anything, and I'm just gonna feel bad."
• 2:41
  So anyway, I am right now. Isn't that, like, the shaking baby thing? Like, "Of course I've never shaken my baby." Do you get it? For sure. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For sure.
• 2:52
  And what I was saying when you joined, Claire, she's like, "Have you ever, have you ever raised your hand to your children?" I'm like, "No, I've got..." Mine is, it's boy, girl, boy. They're 11, 12, 13. And, like,
• 3:02
  we're able with the wrestling to get away, not get away with things, but, like, we get some of the energy out. You know, some of the, some of the- Yes... frustrations. And often I'll just pit them against each other.
• 3:13
  It's much more fun for me that way. Like, you know, like, break the pool stick in half and throw it on the ground. It's like, th- whoever makes it, makes it. I'm not trying to laugh at you, Claire.
• 3:21
  I'm, I'm, um, uh- No, I need to talk. I, I need to laugh about it 'cause, like, I certainly don't feel good about it at the, at the mo- I'm not like, "This is great material, thank you." Although I did want...
• 3:32
  Sorry, Catherine, we're not even, like, remotely introducing you or including you. I just need to get some of this out of my system first. [laughs] No, no. Keep, keep it going. Keep it going.
• 3:39
  I told him I was gonna talk about this on the podcast because it was so stupid that he deserved it, but James got a detention last week or earlier this week, doesn't matter, for tying his shoes together at school.
• 3:51
  So I, like, I never- His own shoes together. Yes, yes. So he got- Did it cause some kind of damage, or was it disruptive? Well, the teacher who...
• 4:01
  He did, I guess it was disruptive, but she also is a, like, an elderly woman, and she said, "You're gonna fall down and break your hip the way I did last year."
• 4:09
  So but this was, he also had received other deten- other demerits, so this was, like, rounding up the detention. So I just was like, "That's so dumb that I'm gonna talk about it on the podcast." And he's like, "Fine."
• 4:19
  So I guess that's not a, like, a good punishment as I thought it would be. Now I'm just- What is the, uh-... giving him attention...
• 4:24
  what is the d- uh, can you explain to me, like, how many demer- like, what is required for demerit? How many demerits until you get to a suspension or whatever? I don't know. I don't know.
• 4:34
  I'm sure it's in a handbook somewhere. Doesn't fucking matter. Not my job. I pointed out that I never got a demerit in school. There you go.
• 4:40
  I got, like, a sub-demerit once, like a warning, for reading a book under my desk during class, and that's the worst thing I ever did. What was the book? It was Beatrice and Ramona. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Well done.
• 4:52
  Yeah. Better than math for sure. Catherine, have you ever gotten a demerit or any such thing in school, or were you always good? No. I got...
• 4:59
  I was very good, but in fifth grade I got sent to the principal's office because on the school bus to school, I was going to school in Vermont, I called a boy a hippie cocksucker, which
• 5:18
  I had just heard- Sure... someone call- Had to use it... one of my family members. Mm-hmm. Mm. Oh, wow. And, you know. Uh-huh. I was like, that one seemed like it really, it really got in there.
• 5:30
  I think I'll try it out myself. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I, I grew up on a commune. This may come up later, but- Uh-huh... these were the types of words that were being bandied about. I didn't know what a cocksucker was. Mm.
• 5:43
  Seemed, like I liked, I liked those vowel sounds or the, the, the nice consonants. Mm-hmm. So anyway, uh, they were very shocked, and they sent me to the principal's office.
• 5:50
  And I, all I could say was, like, "I just learned that and I just... I don't know." Anyway, that was the only time. I was very, very, I was a very be- well-behaved child. I didn't, I didn't get in trouble. Yeah.
• 6:02
  Well, you really made it w- count though. Mm-hmm. Like that was a good one. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah, if you're gonna use it. Not like an musicality. Like you said- It-... the consonants, it's like German, right?
• 6:09
  Where you're like, "This is hitting every note." How was it received- Yeah, dude, double C... by the target? So the kid wasn't a hippie. He was like more of like a, like a, you know...
• 6:18
  I mean, we would've called them rednecks back then. Sure. Like, you know, a, a real country kid. Mm-hmm. Real Vermont country kid. So he was very offended, and he was like, "Why would you call me that? I know you."
• 6:28
  Was he more offended by hippie or cocksucker? I know that guy. Probably both equally. Okay. I think it was like a double whammy for him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. It worked.
• 6:36
  I was so good that the first time I ever said, "Fuck," I told on myself to my parents because it flew out of my mouth without me knowing it, and I was so filled with shame that I confessed it to my parents after the fact.
• 6:48
  And again, my son has said it within earshot of us. He's written it in the steam in the shower. And so my kids got to be m- much worse than I ever got to be, which makes me mad. I'm, like, I'm jealous of them.
• 7:02
  It must be nice, but... When did you use it, and how old were you? Like what was the circumstance? It was when there was a dispute on the playground around seventh or eighth grade about a game of bombardment or tag.
• 7:15
  Yeah. And Kirk Williams and I... Shout out Kirk. I'm sure he's not listening. He was a really nice guy, but we were having some dispute about it and I was telling, like in his face and I said, "So fuck you."
• 7:25
  And, uh, yeah. Oh. It just came out. Yeah, so. And I'm sure, and I just think my parents thought it was funny that I, that I had to say that, you know, or I felt compelled to say that so. So you came home- But anyway...
• 7:37
  and told them. Did you believe you were going to get in trouble for it or it just like morally you had to express it? It was weighing on my soul. Okay. It was weighing on me that I s- that I- Oh...
• 7:46
  I think 'cause also like Kirk was not like a bad guy. Like I was... He was not a kid who I had a big fuck you bubbling, like I had internal- Uh-huh... you know? Like he was... He didn't have it coming to me so.
• 7:58
  Not a hippie cocksucker. No, it, so it really flew out of my mouth in like a moment of anger. So maybe I was ashamed of like losing control or something like that. So. Hmm. Yeah. Katherine, how old are your kids?
• 8:08
  Remind me like where you, where they are at your s- in your stage of life and what they're up to and what words they're saying. Yeah, they're older. So my older son Jesse is 16 and then my younger son is 12. Okay.
• 8:19
  Almost 13. Okay. Okay. So they're big. They're big. There's a lot of fuck. There's a lot of swearing. Is that allowed? Yes. Or do you just start letting it happen or? I've been a very bad role model.
• 8:31
  Like I have a terrible... I've, I swear all the time and I always have and it's a real source of shame. I don't, I'm not proud but it's just so deeply ingrained. My mother also swore. Hmm.
• 8:40
  It really does, it is passed down and so they just got it from me. They know they're not supposed to do it around their grandparents.
• 8:48
  They're pretty good about like code switching and being better around people that it really matters to but they know that like I can't, I have no leg to stand on so- Mm-hmm... they just swear around me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 9:00
  I get it. James said he was struggling out the door yesterday with his stuff and he said, "A little help would be nice." And I must have said that at some point and I said, "Excuse me?"
• 9:14
  And he said, "I mean, could I have some help?" And I said, "All I do is help you." This is before the running away- Oh...
• 9:20
  threats of violence and, or imagined and I, so I, I'm sure I must have said that at some point like r- you know, like when I was carrying a bunch of stuff but I'm the wrong person to, to try that out on at least, at least this day and age at least.
• 9:31
  W- I was gonna say one would imagine you had a leg to stand on when you, when you said it as opposed to...
• 9:36
  You know, and I was on the verge of driving him, you know, for the fourth time in two hours to something so I was also helping him in the, in the matter i- you know?
• 9:46
  So anyway, Katherine I'm always glad to talk to another mom of boys. I wish we could say boy mom. That phrase has been ruined- Boy mom... by the internet but yeah we love our boys. You know. We wanna marry our boys.
• 9:56
  No one is as good as our boys. They're, they can do no wrong. We're so happy, so fulfilled. Yeah although I did read...
• 10:03
  Sorry I know we're going way off target but I read, did, I presume did you read the article in The Cut about the Ozempic sorority girls going on Ozempic and their moms bought them the Ozempic and that was a story where I was like well I mean not like boys can't worry about their bodies and you know make bad choices to fit in but I was like this bullshit is one I'm glad I'm w- not gonna, I'm not gonna have this particular flavor of that.
• 10:28
  Quentin do you, so you don't know this article that I'm talking about? No it, you know it's interesting I'm, I'm sure the, it's all the same. I, William & Mary is about 10 feet this way.
• 10:38
  It's a bunch of nerds obviously but they just had their, I don't know what age it is here or I guess what grade it is here but I saw all the sorority houses all dressed up so they must have done that this weekend but I guess it, I haven't read the article and yet just you saying it out loud I'm like it's not surprising I guess.
• 10:54
  Like it's, it's a f- it's a fucking nightmare and boys too obviously we've been on the girls thing for forever.
• 10:59
  Katherine my wife works in Hollywood and all y- like the guys they show the pictures of like Wolverine 20 years ago and Wolverine now and all these Marvel guys and you're like it's a nightmare.
• 11:07
  They're all getting surgery. Yeah. The looks maxing stuff like it's a fucking nightmare top to bottom so the point is like whatever you're gonna say doesn't surprise me. Yeah.
• 11:15
  I mean the boy stuff like the gym is so huge and- Yeah... I mean I know the gym is, the gym is fine like I'm not against the gym.
• 11:21
  I go to the gym but the boys, my older son and his friends are so interested in the gym and I mean it is like something that they do together. Mm-hmm. Which is I guess good but like
• 11:36
  it's definitely it has an urgency to it that I do not remember. Hmm. And also like these are kids that don't play competitive sports. Like they're not- Uh-huh... on a training regimen.
• 11:47
  They're just like you know my son loves to play basketball but he does not play competitively and none of his friends do like sports are so intense everywhere but you know here too.
• 11:57
  So and they're at the gym they're just doing stuff and they're eating a lot of protein and there's tons of pro- and you know all that so I mean that's the, the boy body is also subject to all kinds of exciting attention.
• 12:11
  Yeah. Are they asking you ever to buy anything for them that is a, you know, a special protein or collagen or whatever have you?
• 12:17
  You know, are you buying things like that that you wouldn't buy if you did not have boys in the house? I just say no to all that stuff. They know I won't do it, and they... I also make fun of them. Mm-hmm.
• 12:26
  And I tell them that it's stupid, and, like- Well, that's good... we have, we have a laugh. Like, they kinda know that it's, it's ridiculous. I don't respect it.
• 12:33
  And I'm also like, "I'm such a good cook, and I cook protein every single day of your life, so get real. Like, come on." Yeah. I recently learned about builder Built Puff Bars. Don't ask me what it is.
• 12:46
  They are very expensive. It's about $10 for a box of four, and I am so desperate to be the, the fun parent, the liked parent, 'cause I n- normally am not. I'm usually bring- making food, and making...
• 12:59
  Like, mom's homemade food is so fucking lame and boring, you know? And so- [laughs]... I will sometimes indulge them. But yeah, I told my son, I was like, "Eat these slowly, 'cause these are very expensive."
• 13:09
  And he also texted me the other day saying, "We're gonna have to put more money in my lunch account." And I said, "We?" And he said, "Me, I guess?"
• 13:17
  And I said, "I'll do it, but don't say 'we' when you're not doing anything about this."
• 13:21
  And also, PS, he's having Gatorade at every meal, and instead of bringing one of these things into school, which he could be doing, but, you know, whatever. Nobody gets out alive.
• 13:30
  But Quinn, that article is about these girls who are doing, who are doing rush, you know, and, uh, and it sounds like this TikTok Bama rush, all that stuff has just, like, made things even more hyped up and crazy, and they not only are going on Ozempic to do rush, their moms are buying it for them in order to be skinny enough to go do rush.
• 13:49
  The thing that really, like, made me crazy was that they were lamenting that they couldn't drink as much and get as shitfaced as they would like to normally because of the Ozempic, and, you know, someone said in the comments, "Has anyone tried just being cool?"
• 14:02
  And I was like, no, no one is... You don't do that, like, when you're early in college. All you want is to be, like, desperate to fit. No one's cool until you're looking at the tail end of college. I don't know.
• 14:12
  Maybe Kathryn, did you rush or d- were you... What did, what was your college experience like with that kind of thing? I mean, guys, I went to Oberlin. Ooh. So that's, there's not, there's no rush. It's rushing- Okay...
• 14:25
  for the front of the line for lentils. That's what we're rushing for. Which turns out w- couldn't have convinced 21-year-old me, but now, amazing. They keep you regular. Yeah. Yeah. They're- That's great. Yeah.
• 14:37
  Well, if you went to, if you lived on the commune, you kind of had, your choices were, like, what? Oberlin, Reed, Hamilton, and, like, I'm, I'm not sure what other, but that makes, that all tracks. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:48
  I went to McGill for my first year, and then I transferred to Oberlin. So yeah, I, I had a nice time. I had, like, a nice college experience. I can't really complain, 'cause coolness wasn't, like, an issue.
• 14:58
  It was really, it was... It's different. It's different in these little places. Yeah.
• 15:03
  I know, I don't know if you guys know Richard Rushfield, but he went to Hamilton, and he, as a joke, started a one-man soro- or one-man fraternity, and he was boycotted.
• 15:14
  Like, he was protested for his one-man fraternity, and I'm like, this is... I love that story. That's ador- it's adorable. Now the school's closed- [laughs]... or I believe closing.
• 15:22
  So what are you working on lately for The Cut? I know we're not even getting to your book yet, and we will, but what have you... I love your pieces. I love your writing. But what's, what do you have going on right now?
• 15:32
  So actually, right today, like, right after I get off this call, I'm editing a piece about, there's a new book by the psychologist Peter Gray, who's, like, the ex-bestie of Jon Haidt.
• 15:44
  I don't know about bestie, but they were like, you know, they, they were mega... They were a team, and they, they co-founded the Let Grow organization, the kind of, like, free-range kids thing with Lenore Skenazy.
• 15:55
  And so Peter Gray basically has... He's no longer in agreement with Jon Haidt after The Anxious Generation because he's very much like, "It's all... The, the, the evil is not the phones.
• 16:08
  The evil is adult supervision, and we need to let kids run free again."
• 16:12
  And even, like, Peter Gray's kind of slightly spicy take is, like, the internet is freedom, and, like, social media and video games are unsupervised play, so, like, let kids have at it because it's good for them.
• 16:25
  And so anyway, this is this big rejoinder to The Anxious Generation, and I'm working on a little piece about that, and I don't want to spoil it, 'cause I have, I have a huge
• 16:34
  m- brain-melting perspective that reconfigures the entire argument. I guess I can tell you, 'cause this is gonna come out after the piece. Yeah.
• 16:42
  The whole thing, both of these guys have this imagined past about, like, this utopian childhood of the mid-century, and it hinges entirely on the presence of at-home caregivers. Like, just people who are
• 16:57
  available, even if they're, like, doing housecleaning or they're watching soap operas or they're, like, elderly, like a, like a grandmother, they're around.
• 17:05
  And so you're gonna let the kids run around, 'cause first of all, you don't want them in the fucking house 'cause they're annoying. And if anything should happen, if someone should, like, fall out of a tree,
• 17:15
  you're a few blocks away. They can come get you. Whereas, like, if you're at work across town, you can't help.
• 17:22
  And that's, I, I think so much of the anxiety that these guys are, like, so against just comes from the fact that women started working, you know, in large numbers. Middle-class women left home.
• 17:35
  And, you know, smartphones and tablets are a big part of what solved that problem when the entire rest of society basically kept going as if nothing had changed. That's my, that's my thing. Yeah. I love it.
• 17:48
  Yeah, I'm into it. No, I, like anything else, it is infinitely complicated, you know? It's- It's infinitely complicated...
• 17:55
  it is the price of housing, the lack of safe streets, you know, it's phones and social media and Ozempic and, and w- women at work, and then all of a sudden the financial crisis, and then, you know, everyone's working fr- I- it's a clusterfuck.
• 18:08
  The whole thing's a clusterfuck.
• 18:09
  Kathryn, when, wh- when you were on, when you were raised in the commune, I know you weren't there full time and you, like, went, you kinda split time, I think, between your mom and your dad, but was that a Sort of patriarchal situation where it was, like, hippie and na- and ideal, but also as long as there was a mama at home to, you know, cook food and breastfeed the babies and things like that?
• 18:29
  Or was it more equal than that? Great question. It ended up being not totally patriarchal.
• 18:36
  Like, my dad was my primary caregiver for m- most of my childhood, and the women on the commune were pretty activated around not having to do all the women's work. Like, I was deputized when I was, like, eight.
• 18:51
  I was asked to make a sign, 'cause I was really into drawing, and I was so, you know, I was very well-behaved. I made a sign that said, "Why not wash a dish for a friend?" And I... It hung above the sink.
• 19:04
  And then someone, a woman on the farm, graffitied it the next day, and it said, "Boys and men are not exempt." And that was up for, like, 20 years. [laughs] "Why not wash a dish for a friend?
• 19:16
  Boys and men are not exempt." And so it was a, it was a big back and forth that was always happening, but it definitely didn't have that kind of, like, creepy, patriarcho-hippie vibe- Mm-hmm...
• 19:26
  that you can, I can sort of imagine too. Yeah, yeah. No, it has been interesting to get older and realize that, that hippies could be extremely patriarchal.
• 19:37
  I mean, we see it now in, like, Maha as well, like the overlap between- Mm...
• 19:40
  fundamentalism and, and hippiem, and like, you know, the shaming of, like, if you are not enjoying giving birth or breastfeeding, it's 'cause you're not giving yourself over to it. You know, like, the...
• 19:52
  It, it gets a little tangled up, which is just kind of interesting and... But that's not my concern 'cause I'm neither a hippie or a fundamentalist. I'm just, like, a crabby person. But that is really interesting.
• 20:02
  I've always, like... So I've been curious, like, with your two boys, like, do you tell these stories about what it was like, and do they listen and, and take it in?
• 20:10
  Or they're like, "That was in the old black and white days," like, and nothing that we need to concern ourselves with? You know, I've told them some stories.
• 20:18
  I have written about this, but, like, I have an uncomfortable relationship with, like, my own self-narrativization.
• 20:26
  Like, I don't talk about my childhood very much with my kids, and I can't exactly explain why, but I think they would actually be totally into hearing more. I just find myself, like, uncomfortable when I'm
• 20:43
  in the telling. Like, I don't like to make myself the hero. I just, I, I, I'm, like, not comfortable with the act of doing it. It feels almost like... Also, I can feel their little brains, like, turning it into canon
• 20:57
  in a way that I don't like.
• 20:59
  And I hate having things repeated back to me where it's like, "No, no, no, no, you didn't get it," or like, "You, you missing, you're missing some of the nuance," which is insane to, like, have a problem with a child missing some of the nuance of the story you told them about your childhood.
• 21:12
  But I think that maybe because I'm so, like, cooked in the head about it, I don't talk about it with them that much. Hmm.
• 21:19
  Like, they've come back there with me a number of times 'cause it still exists, and they're like, "Man, this place is wild."
• 21:26
  And they like, they like things about it, but they're mostly just like, "The food's not very good, and it's really, really filthy in here." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's valid. Valid points."
• 21:37
  Let's talk about your book a little bit. I... Congratulations on the, on it coming out.
• 21:41
  I'm curious so far on what has been interesting to you and what has been sort of picked up and talked about the most, and if there's any part of that that you, wasn't what you expected or, you know.
• 21:52
  'Cause I know when you're working on a book, you're like, "The, this is what I imagine people will, like, you know, will really bounce off the most." Like, and I'm just curious how it's been received so far to you.
• 22:01
  I mean, for the most part, it's been awesome. Like, I've been really happy with the conversations I've had. I will say that, like, people ask me a lot, you know, "What's next for social media?
• 22:12
  Like, what do you think we're gonna do now?" Like, you know, "Where are we going?" And I really am like, "You guys," like, "I don't know. Fuck." Like, that's not within my purview. Mm-hmm.
• 22:23
  But everyone wants to know because I think there is a real shared feeling of, like, this sorta sucks now. Like, it's not fun anymore, and, and yet we're still doing it.
• 22:34
  And I really agree that, like, we're stuck in this kind of weird eternal present, and something's gonna happen where we're gonna leave it, but I don't know what that's gonna be.
• 22:45
  Not that it reflects on your own writing or work, but what is your boys' social media/internet as far as you know diet, just in terms of, like, what they are into right now or how they're using it?
• 22:58
  I can, I can say from my perspective just right now, my, just the, the conversation is homecoming is, is coming up, hoco, which is not a phrase we ever used. Yeah. Quinn, you don't know that?
• 23:08
  Well, your kids are slightly younger than, like, a tiny bit younger than mine, but- Hoco...
• 23:12
  uh, I think more, more, more on the girls' side than the boys' side based on my friends talking is that there's a lot of anxiety about, I guess, boys in particular will announce, "Will you come to homecoming with me?"
• 23:23
  over Snapchat, you know? And, and my son, my older son, who's in high school, to his credit, is like, doesn't give a crap, and is, like, gonna go with his friends, and he doesn't really understand what the big deal is.
• 23:34
  He's sort of innocent in a blessed way for now. Meanwhile, like, I know a friend whose daughter's, like, worried herself sick, literally sick, like, w- about whether she'll be asked and by whom and how that's going.
• 23:44
  So anyway, that's, like, an example of what's, what the landscape is like for, for mine right now. How about for yours? Yeah, similar actually. For me, it's totally a thing here, and it's like a promposal.
• 23:53
  Like, the boys also stage, like, proposals that are planned in advance for asking you to hoco. And, like, my son is like your son. Like, he, I think he's just gonna go with friends. He's, he's plays it very cool.
• 24:05
  I think that's, like, that is a permissible social role is to be a guy who's like, "Eh, I don't care." I mean, that's al- I think that's always been a type of dude, so...
• 24:15
  But it's easier to be that type of dude, and I'm like, "Stick with that. In terms of this stuff, that's great."
• 24:20
  My kids, so my little son just got his first phone 'cause he just started seventh grade, and so he now commutes, like, across the city to get to school. And he, like me, I think is in possession of the soul of a poster.
• 24:34
  Like, I think he has that, he's vulnerable to the pull of social media. I just, I just know he is. I can feel that he's the type of dude who's gonna wanna check back and see how his thing is doing.
• 24:50
  In a way that my older son is, like, a true not-give-a-shit guy. Like, he really, he does not give a shit. So my little son, I'm, I'm kinda like, "You can't have anything.
• 24:59
  You can't have social media for, like, I don't know, maybe till you're 15. I don't know, just not now, and, like, not next year." And that's just kind of as far as we're gonna get.
• 25:07
  The thing is, and I've been asked this a few times, like, I don't think that my kids think it's that cool because I am so much... I talk about it so much and my book is about it.
• 25:17
  I've kind of colonized social media as an area, so it's not as appealing to them, I think. Mm. Which is great. Mm. But, like, phone-wise, like, my older son was alone a lot this summer.
• 25:29
  He had a summer job, and we were gone, and, like, he was very lightly supervised this summer. And I came home after, like, a few days away, and he was watching YouTube on the big TV, which, like, had never happened.
• 25:42
  I was like, "Oh, dang," like, "we really have been gone too long if you're watching YouTube on the big TV."
• 25:47
  And he was watching one of his YouTubers, this dude, it's just a podcast, and it's just one of these, like, maybe 21-year-old guys just, like, talking about the state of the world.
• 25:57
  [laughs] And I watched it for, like, 20 minutes, and I was like, "Oh." It's not, it wasn't, like, manosphere toxicity. Like, it was, it was very kinda bland, but it was so misinformed.
• 26:09
  [laughs] And I was like- Yeah..."Ooh, this feels... It's just, this guy is just stupid." Like- Mm...sorry. Like, he's just dumb. Like, it's just a lot of real spurious claims. But- Yeah...he's six- my son is 16.
• 26:24
  He's not gonna stop watching this YouTuber just 'cause I say he's stupid. Like, the, that ship has sailed. Yeah. No, of course not.
• 26:30
  If anything, that might make you, him wanna listen to it more because, you know- Yes...like, stupid is, is cool. Yeah.
• 26:37
  I, like, something that I get mad about when I read about hot takes on parenting, which I should know better, but I always do, you know, still subject myself to it, is, like, the notion of parental oversight of your kids' internet use.
• 26:51
  And it's a, it sounds so impossible to say, 'cause you would, like, not think, like, there's so m- so many other parts of your child's life where you would take care of them.
• 26:59
  Like, you wouldn't let them sit in a shitty diaper. You know, you wouldn't let them choke. You wouldn't, you know, leave them alone in a bathtub.
• 27:06
  And yet it is so hard to mind their social media or their online intake and access. I don't know, maybe you, you'd do it better than I do. I just find it, it slips away from you, and it's so hard.
• 27:17
  And also, their phones and devices are disgusting, physically disgusting. Yes. And I'm sure they don't do that, like, on purpose, but it makes you not wanna handle them, in particular.
• 27:26
  And, and it feels bad to say that, 'cause it'd be like being like, you know, leaving them alone for an entire week with, you know, 20 bucks or something like that.
• 27:34
  But you're like, this is an area where it's so much easier to fall down on the job than you would think it would be, and it, and I don't know how to square that or explain that for myself.
• 27:43
  But just, I'm like, I hope he's... He seems like he's doing okay, but also, I don't know for sure. Oh, 100%. And, like, for my older son, I had his phone on lock code for, like, a year.
• 27:56
  And I was like, "I am always gonna have your phone code for, like, the foreseeable, and I can go in there." And also, like, I was very sanctimonious about being like, "This is not a private space.
• 28:06
  You need to see this as a space that is totally public, and anything that goes on in here is a public thing. Case in point, I can go in there and read anything." And then, like, one day, he changed the code.
• 28:17
  And I was like, "Oh, you changed your code. [laughs] I guess I can't access your phone anymore," because something... And you know, he was at this point, like, 14.
• 28:27
  Something about having the conversation where now I have to demand the code and continue the surveillance, it was like, it was somehow felt impossible for me and felt unfair.
• 28:38
  Even though it was probably the right thing to do, totally fair, totally possible, somehow I just let it go. And I cannot defend that choice. That was just a decision I made in the moment.
• 28:53
  And I think I was like, "I want to believe that I can trust you. Off you go." But can I? Mm-hmm. Like, he seems fine. Like, I, he's not the kinda guy who's on his phone at night.
• 29:04
  Like, he kinda isn't supposed to, like, they're supposed to leave it in the other room. But it, it does feel, it's like the impossibility of, like, I can't keep track of this shit.
• 29:12
  What am I even ch- I'm not even checking it. Like, I don't wanna go in there. I don't wanna touch it. I don't wanna be part of that. Yeah. Quinn, have you systemized looking over your kids', you know, online access?
• 29:21
  Like, have you figured a way to make it work on a regular schedule? And, you know, or is, are you also like, "I think you're doing okay. We'll see." Uh, yeah. I mean, I'd systematized everything 'cause I'm a psycho.
• 29:33
  But you know, so I had a similar situation with my 13-year-old, who he and I, despite the fact that he's going to, like, the literally the same schools I did when I was growing up, much like Claire's boys, except, like, to be reductive, like, mine is, like, a little imprint of me.
• 29:49
  He is literally, like, does the same things I did. Except, I don't think he's ever gotten below, like, a 99 on a test, where I was just like, "Where is the next boob I can grab?"
• 29:58
  You know, like, I was not on the same path. But otherwise, like, does all the same stuff. I'm like, "Fascinating. Sliding doors." Like, you could've just chosen to do your homework.
• 30:06
  But the point is, is like, so I have a little bit less of a leg to stand on to demand those kind of things, 'cause he's like, "I mean, what do you want from me?" You know? Like, "I'm, I'm doing great."
• 30:16
  He has great manners, this and that. But he did... We, we've always said, like, so they just have iPads. They don't have phones. My daughter's got her taken away, whole long fucking thing.
• 30:26
  That's not coming back for quite a while. My youngest, like, is the worst about when he's on it. Like, cannot be taken away without something. But he never wants to be on it, which is interesting. Absolutely.
• 30:39
  So it's just, like, keeping it away from him is really the thing. But my older one, he, he did change it at one point, and like you're saying, I have said, I have a little pop-up like every Sunday.
• 30:51
  It's like scroll through his messages. How often do I do that? Not that often, but I do need him to have the fear that I'm going to. Yes. Yeah.
• 30:59
  [clears throat] So there was one time where he changed it or, like, made a face ID or fucking something. I was like, "Absolutely not. You can go ahead and change it back." And he was like, "Goddammit. Okay, fine."
• 31:07
  But have I gone through it since then? Like, I don't think so.
• 31:10
  But like you said, a public space thing, the one warning I have given him is that it doesn't require me, because I don't know how much you guys have seen this or heard about it, but, like,
• 31:20
  all these kids do is screenshot the texts that they write each other and send it to 400 fucking people. Like, nothing is private in any- Yes... condition of any kind.
• 31:32
  And so I don't know how much it requires of me, 'cause there's just fucking drama all the time about that stuff. So that's my long typical answer for these things. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
• 31:41
  They do feel so surveilled. It's true that, like, the surveillance that they experience is so far beyond anything that we can probably even imagine. Oh, yeah.
• 31:49
  So it's like I don't even know how much we need to add to that because, yeah, they're on each other nonstop. Yeah. I mean, could you...
• 31:58
  Claire, could you have screenshotted instant mes- someone's instant messenger, like away profile? Like, you know, and their email lyrics? No. All you- Fuck no... you know, you would run back to your dorm and check.
• 32:09
  You'd leave it open all day long and run home and see- Yeah... if, like, and see if your crush was online, you know, and you could check, check, check.
• 32:14
  Like, they would, you would have to be there in person in your own way, like being on the phone- That was it... with words. Like, yeah. I thought this was interesting.
• 32:21
  So Katherine's, my hu- my son just showed me, maybe 'cause the phone updated, I don't know.
• 32:26
  We have a puppy, and I kind of jokingly said we got her because I wanted to get her when he started high school so that he would have a reason to come home and a wa- a reason to wanna be at home, and actually that kind of did work.
• 32:39
  Like, it is very sweet to see him come home and do baby talk to her and take pictures of her, but he was showing me that you can do an animated s- uh, s- wallpaper, and it made me think you had, you wrote a column some whi- some months ago about is it, is sharing Instagram reels with my kid a valid way to show love?
• 32:58
  Mm-hmm. And I actually was like, I don't even, I don't even wanna overthink that 'cause I'm like, yeah, it is a valid way for...
• 33:04
  Like, 'cause my older son and I, he's the only one who has, between the two of them, an account, you know. And also I love when he shows me how to use my phone. Like, not like I...
• 33:14
  Like, he showed me, I never knew that you could touch your phone to someone else's phone and get their information, and I was just blown away.
• 33:20
  And there's something kinda sweet about your kid showing you something different, but I'm just curious whether that's something that you have with your kids, like, to this day, and whether you decided you came down either way or not that, like, sh- you know, sharing links, sharing reels, like, does that count as, as affection or does that not help, uh, you know, appropriate parents behave in this day and age?
• 33:39
  It's funny because I actually can't remember exactly where I came down on that, on that column.
• 33:44
  I have a feeling given it was, like, a couple years ago, I think I probably was, like, expressing my, like, customary ambivalence, like, eh, wah, wah.
• 33:52
  Like, I kind of have a tone that is more or less always the way that I am. And I would say that now I'm totally more into it 'cause, like, my son is 16, and, like, it's true.
• 34:02
  Like, one of the thing, one of the ways that he communicates with me is with memes, and, like, he'll...
• 34:09
  He once, actually, like, last weekend, he was like, "I saw this meme that's exactly why your generation is so stupid and annoying. Do you wanna see it?" And I was like, like, "Yeah."
• 34:18
  Like, "Actually, I would love your perspective." Fucking trap. "Roast me. Roast me, please." But, like, the thing is it was funny, and I was like, "Mm, you know, valid. Valid points."
• 34:29
  So, like, for sure, maybe when your kid is 12 it feels a little, you know, just not the ideal kind of connection that you might seek, but as your kid gets older and it, it really does become a way of communicating that is actually very, I think, has a, contains tons of meaning and is, like, very heartfelt.
• 34:47
  So, like, I'm all for it. And, like, also I have friends that my kids text because maybe they're babysitting for them or whatever, and they just communicate in gifs. And, like, my friends and- Yeah...
• 34:57
  and my sons are going back and forth, and it's like this is, like, a game that they've been playing for years, and they, like, love it. And I'm like, this is... How can I, how can I not think this is adorable?
• 35:08
  Like, come on. Yeah. What was the meme? Like, or what was the premise of the meme? I know it's impossible to describe a meme, but the one about our, our, our generation. Oh, God. It was, like, roller derby based.
• 35:19
  It was, it was a bunch of roller derby players introducing themselves by their derby names, and it was just, like, quirky. Uh, uh, it- Oh... it was embarrassing. That's so funny.
• 35:31
  I had the unfortunate of experience of trying to explain, do you remember the exhibit meme where Exhibit had the show Pimp My Ride, and he would always say, "Yo dog, if you...
• 35:41
  I heard you like podcasting, so I put podcasting equipment inside your podcasting studio so you could podcast." Anyway, I tried to explain that to my son 'cause our dog was carrying around her...
• 35:50
  She was playing with a dog bed in her dog bed. Anyway, I just, like, was so sick of hearing myself talk. It was impossible to explain it out loud.
• 35:58
  But, you know, I was like, "If y- if you could get it, you would really enjoy this," but I guess, you know, it just, it just gets too, too deep.
• 36:05
  So, you know, he showed me how to use stickers also, like, on, on text messages. So I'll put- Yep... a sticker of the dog on our chats, things like that, you know. So yeah. I'll take...
• 36:14
  Quin, have your kids showed you anything that you didn't know online, or is that impossible? I make it... I, I'll ruin anything. Here's the thing. I'll ruin anything.
• 36:22
  They will come at me with, like, this, "I really wanna share this part of my life with you" thing, and I will, if it's funny, if it's meaningful, I will acknowledge that there is art behind th- this thing that has been created, and like you said, some of these things are amazing, and then I will immediately be like, "Your iPad time was up half an hour ago."
• 36:42
  They're like, "Well, there you go. Now I'm not gonna fucking share it with you again." And it's like this inability, like the Homer Simpson, like, "Don't say donuts. Don't say donuts."
• 36:51
  It's like can I ju- can I, can I let one thing exist? And yeah, I don't know. It's a whole... I'm not gonna turn this into a therapy session, but it- that's, you know, I, I...
• 37:02
  Like, so it's when they're 12 it's one thing, when they're 16 it's another. We're not to 16 yet, so it's not a default device. He's doesn't have a job. They're not out and about doing all this shit.
• 37:12
  And most the time, again, I'm fucking annoying. Like, they're like, "Well, I gotta go out." I'm like, "Great. Go, go for it. If you need something, like, knock on someone's door. Figure it out. I don't know." Yeah. So
• 37:24
  yes. Like, for, for example, one thing. So I used to work at ESPN, and when I was... I actually, I encourage you to ask this of, like, the red-blooded, at least, like, white men in your life of our age. Mm-hmm.
• 37:37
  Someone said, "What was the Sex and the City for us? The, like, the must-watch thing." And my answer was SportsCenter. It was... You would watch it three times a... The same fucking show.
• 37:49
  [laughs] The same highlights three times. It was... You cannot miss it, right? If you were a super nerd, Baseball Tonight all the time.
• 37:55
  There's this new, new, probably has one billion viewers, this podcast clip show on YouTube, and it's like SportsCenter, but it's one guy and he's just dropping F-bombs and saying the most ridiculous things of all time.
• 38:09
  Technically is my kid just watching baseball highlights, which I like to share with him? 100%.
• 38:15
  But it's like, no, I don't think it's brain rot, but it is like, oh, if you let a 17-year-old host SportsCenter for his friends- Right... this is what it would be like. Yeah. So I definitely get the appeal.
• 38:26
  Like, I could put myself in those shoes and be like, "Fuck yeah, this is great. Like, this is amazing." But of course, then I'm like, "Why are you on YouTube?" And they're like, "Well, that's ruined now, too.
• 38:35
  Congratulations. I guess I won't share that with you." Yeah. So. Yeah. Fucking it's my, it's my fault. I'm the problem. Yeah. No, that's how I got lost in the sauce with the Kanye West thing, because I was- Gosh...
• 38:46
  driving Paul and his friend to, to rowing, and Kanye West was gonna play at Soldier Field, and they were saying how great it was gonna be and how amazing. And I, you know, I'm fucking current Kanye West.
• 38:59
  How could you not be? And you know, I was like, "Nazis are bad." And they were like, "That was, like, 10 years ago, bro," you know? And I just... I, and I'm, like, two blocks from the drop-off, so you have, like...
• 39:13
  You're like, "How can I rant, like, in the fastest way possible?" And then I was like, "What even, like, good songs has he had recently?" And they started listing songs that I've never even heard of.
• 39:22
  And I, my only ammunition, which wasn't even ammunition, was that I had seen Kanye when he came out. Like, I, you know... But I just was like, I have nothing. Now I'm just mad.
• 39:33
  Now I'm just, like, a grouchy bitch with, like, no context and nothing, and just dropped them off and, like, I'm like... And I, and I've lost it, and, like, I have nothing for them. And I'm like, well, you know, we...
• 39:43
  Maybe we could have bonded.
• 39:45
  Maybe I could have proven that I knew what we were talking about and I appreciate the broader scope of, like, music and genius and mental illness and grief, you know, and trying to get attention.
• 39:53
  But I just became, like- Who has time for that?... caring, basically. Who has time for that? That's not why they like Kanye. They're not interested in his grief journey. Right. So I don't know.
• 40:02
  He wrote a whole album about his mom dying- It's a little much to handle... well before he made a commercial for, about, you know, Nazi clothes. That's beautiful. Also now Nazi clothes. Have you, Kevin, have you been...
• 40:12
  Have you found yourself, like, that c- that w- that woman, like, attempting to explain something to the boys and you just see yourself, like, through their eyes, and you're like, "I'm not even... What am I even...
• 40:22
  What are we even doing here? I might as well just stop talking"? Oh, God, so much. So, so, so much. Like, that's a huge part of my role in life. [laughs] Yeah. I don't...
• 40:32
  I wouldn't even know where to begin to describe the way that I'm like that. But I do feel... So it's like, you know how I'm like I don't like talking about my childhood with my kids?
• 40:42
  I am really comfortable having them know me as an adult in this way. And I'm like, you know what? I'm out here in the world, and when you encounter something, I want you to hear my voice in your head.
• 40:54
  No matter how much you hate that voice and you're rolling your eyes, I want you to know exactly what I would say. Yeah. That's, that's very important to me.
• 41:01
  And I mean, maybe it's 'cause, like, I am a professional take peddler, so I'm like, "This is my business. I'm sharing my business with you."
• 41:08
  You know, the way, like, if we owned a hardware store, I would want you to, like, learn the business of the hardware store. Yeah, learn which screws go where. Yeah. This is how the takes work, okay?
• 41:15
  This is what my take would be. And I do think that it's fine. I don't care if they b- roll their eyes at me. I really don't care.
• 41:22
  But I sometimes, yeah, the sound of my own voice is annoying and, and I, like, I hate the process. But I think it's important. I'm committed to that.
• 41:29
  Stuff I, I'm thinking about, like, one thing is my 16-year-old hangs out with a bunch of boys, and there are girls too, but they really are segregated.
• 41:39
  Like, they hang out in very specific contexts all together, but mostly they don't. And I'm always kind of like, "So, you know, when you guys, when the girls are there, like, you gotta make sure that you, like...
• 41:50
  W- W- Is everyone, like, gonna do the same thing, or are you gonna talk to them, or, like, how does that work? Like, it's really important to talk to the girls. You should ask them, ask them about their summer."
• 41:59
  And I literally am giving him scripts, and he's like, "You're sick and annoying. Like, you are infantilizing me. You're humiliating me. You're underestimating me."
• 42:07
  And I'm like, "I've seen the way you guys hang out, and you do not talk to the girls. You're just performing for them, and they're just watching you. And it's... I was that girl, and it sucked."
• 42:15
  And he's like, "Yeah, well, you know what? You grew up to have a husband and two wonderful sons, so, like, I'm sure it worked out just fine for you." Like, you know, we can really get into it, but you know. Yeah.
• 42:24
  I was the girl who watched boys play video games for hours on end. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's not fun. It sucked to be that girl. I'm like- Yeah... "Don't make girls do that."
• 42:34
  And, and you know, they, they don't wanna hear that from me. It's really unwelcome. It's also not helpful, I think. But I have to tell them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course you do. Like I have to ruin everything.
• 42:42
  As, speaking of things that you ruin or you have to tell them, I did an interview yesterday with this woman, Kate Van Damm, who is a pelvic floor therapist, and we were doing a, an interview for Evil Witches about painful sex.
• 42:53
  Hmm. And it's like on the way up to bed, and I was like, "I gotta get up early for my interview s- interview about painful sex tomorrow." And Paul said, "What the heck?" And then I was like, "Yeah."
• 43:04
  And I said- I said, actually, I was like, "You need to know that sex for women is way different than sex is for boys."
• 43:11
  And I like, a- again, I was like literally up the stairs and I was like, do I explain penetration and like the- Ah... act of being penetrated? I, I just left it at that.
• 43:18
  So Catherine, we call these Claire's drive-bys, which is just like the children fully minding their own fucking business. I, I was like, no one ever tells...
• 43:26
  I mean, you know what sex is, but no one really, again, in my era, no one explains that, you know?
• 43:33
  And just frankly, unless if you grew up in my body, in my era, in my lifetime, no one explains that to you or what, what that's like. You know what happens, but you don't know what that's like to experience.
• 43:43
  And I was like, maybe some boys out there should know, or some penis havers should know a little bit more about what's going on the other end of it. Anyway, I didn't go into it any further, but yeah, exactly.
• 43:53
  Like some- something that you should know, you don't wanna hear about it from your mom, but like, sorry, again. So I didn't know about this until college because again, like, idiot.
• 44:02
  But my best friend's dad, who delivered me, is, was my mom's OBGYN and was great. He got, just passed away, an amazing dad.
• 44:10
  And I remember when we were in college and it came up somehow in a conversation and, and he wasn't very talkative, but I remember him, and again, these are two opposite sides of the spectrum, idiots who are 19 and a lifelong OBGYN.
• 44:25
  And it came up somehow and we were like, "Really?" And he was like, "Are you fucking kidding me?
• 44:29
  Like, how do you, how could you not acknowledge it that was even a possibility that sex could be painful for the re- people that are usually on the [laughs] receiving end, traditionally, however you want to define them?"
• 44:40
  We were like, "That's super interesting." And you know, to him, he was like, "This is every day.
• 44:46
  This is like, I, I am, I'm taking this thing that's, you know, to so many women's, 'Uh, I can't bring it up to my partner and it's taboo and it's this and this.'"
• 44:55
  He's like, "I, I'm like the holder of the secrets, like trying to help wherever I can." So no, I think it's fantastic 'cause again, like they have no idea. They have no fucking idea. Oh.
• 45:05
  Especially as they're walking up to bed- Yeah... at 15 years old. But they should know. Well, it, it's not like he's gonna, you know, lose his virginity and be like thinking of me.
• 45:14
  I hope not, you know, and like be like extra gentle and checking in. But again, as you move along through your life and you encounter porn and things like that, and your, your take might be different from a girl's.
• 45:23
  But anyway, who knows where that, where that went. My other thing I was gonna text you about was that I think they're talking about sex ed in school right now for my younger son, James.
• 45:32
  And so Steve told me that while they were getting ready for bed, James said, "Dad, do you and mom still have S-E-X?" And this is the child who ran away because I was, I told him not to eat- Same week... a candy bar.
• 45:45
  Yeah. Yeah. And, and I imagine in another context, Steve would've said, "That's none of your business" or, "Why do you ask?" But because we were just like so annoyed with him, I think to flex, he said, "Yeah, we do."
• 45:56
  And James just went like that. And, but I was like, "Good, I'm glad you told him. I'm glad you... Like he deserves to be, to be mortified." Anyway, that's, I don't know how we got onto that topic.
• 46:06
  Catherine, I wanted to know- It's ruining things for them. That's the topic. We're just ruining- Yeah. Yeah... ruining things for the kids. Right. Why do they want to run away? I don't know.
• 46:14
  Catherine, when, when it comes to, so the star of your life and you talking about, you know, our impulse to post things and share things, I just wanted to know, you know, we just had started school and for so many kids, that- that's the year, the time of year where you stand in front of your house like with a little chalkboard, you know, and we're starting to come into pumpkin patch season.
• 46:33
  Mm-hmm. Which is like, you know, I think for people with little baby kids.
• 46:36
  Like your kids are older, you are wise and, you know, you've looked into this, but what is something about you as a parent that you still have like a posting inclination, either that you practice or you would do that you like hold yourself back from?
• 46:51
  I am such a poster and I hardly post anymore, and so that represents a massive act of restraint on my part. Like I think I would post about- Is it a conscious decision? It's kind of.
• 47:01
  At this point, I've just broken the habit because I, it was making me feel bad. I was having bad feelings mixed with good feelings, and the bad just outweighed the good and it's not fun anymore.
• 47:12
  But like, I'm a huge fan of the back to school photos in front of the house. Like massive fan. Love seeing them. Never want them to stop.
• 47:19
  I haven't always remembered to do them 'cause I'm like bad at remembering these rituals, even though I like literally study them. But like I did it this year. Like I love seeing the kids.
• 47:28
  I love seeing just like them standing in front of the house. Like I just think that's a very kind of, this is the right way to use social media. Here are the kids a year later. Beginning of year, end of the year.
• 47:39
  Look how they grew. It's just like agricultural. Like let's just watch the kids. Let's see how they grow. It's very universal, right? It, a- among the- Yeah...
• 47:46
  many things we've lost or don't have anymore, like it, it is a fairly universal thing that's happening, so to memorialize it in public, sure. I get it. Yeah. I got no problem with that whatsoever.
• 47:57
  And even a pumpkin patch, honestly, I love all this shit. I think it's funny. I think it's campy. Like I'm here for it.
• 48:05
  I don't really do it, but like I don't think that it's like some kind of, you know, brazen act of vanity to like go to a pumpkin patch with your baby. Like I think it's cute. You know, it's corny, but like- I-...
• 48:18
  whatever, man. Like what's worse things? Correct.
• 48:21
  I had, I would be, I was anti-pumpkin patch just because like dead pu- I got burned so many times in my big pumpkin patch and like m- knowing what a pain in the ass it is to go and get that photo taken and like to pretend- Yeah...
• 48:32
  there's no one behind you and you're not like r- running away from bees the whole time, like to get that one photo.
• 48:38
  But then I would of course have like FOMO of like kind of thinking like, "We should get the pumpkin patch photo, but I don't want to," you know? And it's like, well, pick a lane. You know? Either be fine with it or not.
• 48:48
  But here's a question for you.
• 48:50
  On your, if you're posting for your child's birthday, especially you with an older son, and maybe he doesn't get, wanna get posted anymore, do you post also all the photos of years past of like showing him coming up from being a baby up to being- Mm-hmm...
• 49:05
  you know, the size he is now? Or do you only do the, the point in time right now? So I have friends that I, we all have friends that do the whole spectrum, I'm sure.
• 49:13
  I'm a very minimalist, like first of all, close friends only, doesn't want me to have, nothing is for everybody. Pretty much just the current photo and then maybe, maybe one As like a comparison.
• 49:25
  But I, this is also just like, I don't like s- I don't, I'm not a good curator. I don't have, like, good albums. I don't have good access. Like, the photos are, they're back there, man. I, I can't- Mm-hmm...
• 49:38
  I'm not gonna sit and, like, spend five minutes making a post. I'm just not gonna do it. I'm in and out, man. So- Yeah... I love it all. I really do. I think it's cool.
• 49:48
  And like, I think one of the reasons why I actually like this stuff is because when my kids were babies, like, I was in graduate school. I was broke as fuck, and my husband, we, we had no money.
• 49:59
  We really couldn't afford to do any of the cool things, like pumpkin patch. It was, it was n- unimaginable. Like, our car broke down a lot type shit.
• 50:07
  Like, I wasn't driving out to the pumpkin patch 'cause it, none of that was a possibility until relatively recently.
• 50:14
  So, like, I didn't feel, like, oppressed by the, like, pumpkin patch industrial complex- Big pumpkin patch... type thing. Uh-huh.
• 50:20
  I didn't, like, I wasn't, I wasn't like, "Look at," I just, it was just too far away from my reality. And so I just don't have bad feelings about it. And I think that's the same way that I feel about trad wives. Mm-hmm.
• 50:32
  I think a lot of people who talk about this stuff, they feel close to it and they feel attacked by it because I think that there's something about it that is exploiting a need or an urge or, or an appeal that they natively possess.
• 50:46
  And like, I grew up with, like, hippies that were so extreme. It's hard to describe, like, the degree of hippie lifestyle that I was exposed to.
• 50:56
  Like, these trad wives are, to me it's, it's like we're, we're really apples and oranges. Like, I don't feel- Mm... implicated in their project in any way.
• 51:04
  So it's easier for me to kinda be like, you know, "Ha ha," or like, "This is fucked," but, like, it's not personal. And I just think- Yeah...
• 51:11
  that makes a lot of this type of thing easier for me to think about at all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Especially the trad wife thing, I find it hard to take personally or to relate to it.
• 51:23
  And then a g- in a way that I'm happy about, 'cause I'm like, well, first of all, so much of it is capitalist informative.
• 51:28
  Like, so how trad is that basically when you're buying very expensive dresses to perform this- Yeah... this, you know.
• 51:35
  And then the social media of it, like, it is weird to me, like, when you are a hippie who's also extremely online, like, I feel like then you're not truly a hippie. Like, you are an online person in a hippie costume.
• 51:46
  But I also, as bad as my, as bad as I can be about being online and, you know, all the exposure I do, like, when it comes to mom characters online who make me feel bad, I'm just like, "Why would I do that to myself?"
• 51:59
  Like, there's so many other things to feel bad about than seeking out these characters online who are- Yeah, yeah... performing m- I don't need other people to make myself feel bad. Like, I'm- No... I'm done.
• 52:07
  I'm locked- Am I on?... and loaded. I'm ready to go. And loaded. As I, Claire, I've told Claire before, I had a therapist once who told me I was should-ing all over myself 'cause everything is like- Yes...
• 52:16
  "Oh, I should do this. I should do that. I should do that." And he was like, "Jesus Christ, man. Like, it's getting old." Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I don't need it.
• 52:22
  Katherine, do you feel like, as you, as someone who writes about parenthood, like, do y- I mean, this is my own, this is a question from me, but do you ever look, do you ever feel like you ha- like, as your kids get older and you are less, like, in the trenches of little par- like, of little kids and their concerns, like, do you ever feel like that makes you have less to talk about, I guess, as you are raising the kind of proto adults compared to, like, little kids, or you're just like they are different ages and stages and my...
• 52:51
  I don't wanna say it's not as valid as someone who has little kids, but you know, like, when you're not looking for baby gear and kid gear and all that kinda stuff, and you're talking more about people who are sort of independent, maybe driving, taking the, the sh- subway across town, like, how does that affect how you see the parenthood as a topic of conversation as r- in writing?
• 53:10
  No, totally, dude. Like, I worry, or worry is the wrong word, but I'm aware that, like, I feel that I am gonna age out of this space pretty quickly. Like, I'm, I'm in my last era, I think.
• 53:21
  I mean, that being said, like, 'cause sometimes I'll be like, "I, I don't have anything else to talk about." Like, and my column, like, I come up with ideas. I don't have a spreadsheet. I don't have a list of ideas.
• 53:32
  Like, it's every one is new, and they're, nothing is planned ahead because I just find that if I plan ahead it doesn't turn out as good. And very often I'll be like, "Well, I guess that's it. I'm done. It was good.
• 53:44
  We had a great run, but I think I'm fucking done." Like, that happens probably once every couple of months, and then I'm like, "Oh- I had a-... no, no, okay, I have another idea. I have another idea."
• 53:52
  But then people are like, "Well, but no one's writing about, like, pre-teens and teens. Everyone's writing about little kids." That's fair. And it's nice to hear- That's fair... someone writing about older kids.
• 54:01
  So, like, I get some encouragement from parents who seem like there's something there for them. But I'm, I'm self-conscious about that because also, like, a lot of what... It's a privacy thing too.
• 54:13
  Like, my kids don't want, if, you know, if, like, my, my son has a girlfriend and they break up and he's sad, like, that's gonna probably be a part of my life, and like, I can't write about that. Like- Yeah...
• 54:25
  I, you know. This, this show has turned into 95% live, like, talking about our issues, like, as people with parenting included. It's our text message- Mm-hmm... where, where we're just like, "Oh, he ran away?
• 54:37
  Fuck that kid. Yeah, get him outta here." Like, that- Yeah. [laughs]... that's our safe place.
• 54:41
  That, 'cause like you said, like, it's one thing when they're four and they go, "You shouldn't talk about kids," but you kinda can 'cause they don't know shit. But now you're like- Yeah... well, I mean, they really are.
• 54:49
  Yeah. But it's funny. It's not funny.
• 54:51
  I mean, you said, you know, like you said, "Oh, the baby," and all this stuff, and like, "I'm in my last phase," it's like, I don't know, I'm not on social media too much, but it doesn't take much to see, like, parents decorating their fucking dorm rooms, and GOPs for Rush, and all the kids live at home still.
• 55:09
  And you're like, "I don't think we're as out of it as we fucking thought." No. Yeah. You're right about that. Totally. Um- Yes. Unfortunately, I don't even wanna think about that stuff yet.
• 55:18
  Yeah, we were, there was a, we had Kaitlyn Tier on our show a couple months ago, and I, she had an event- Right...
• 55:23
  in Evanston just a few blocks from where I was at this children's consignment store, and all these moms brought their tots, like literal tots.
• 55:30
  Like, usually that word doesn't apply to any particular kind of children, but they were all, like, little walking babies. And we all went around and I was like, "My kids are old."
• 55:39
  And by which I mean 11 and 14, but I was like, "They are so, like- You know, out of this, and I just felt so dried up and irrelevant, but also, like, enjoying these babies.
• 55:51
  They were all really well-behaved, and, you know, I could kinda play with them in a grown auntie sort of way. But I was like, "I'm a husk. You know, I have nothing to, to say to these people.
• 56:01
  Like, I don't know why they would ever listen to me or wanna know anything about me." But yeah, I will stay, keep yapping in the meantime. But I also...
• 56:08
  I do wonder, 'cause we are now focused on things like gear and daycare and, like, the pressing ele- you know, issues of, like, elementary school.
• 56:17
  But then we are thinking about, yeah, fucking AI and college applications and driving, you know, and... Like, is, is your son learning how to drive right now, or are you guys...
• 56:28
  Is that not, since you live in New York, is that not an issue? I actually live in Montreal. Oh, Montreal. I'm Canadian. Okay, sorry. Se- secretly- Can I stop you for a second? Sorry. I've read your stuff. Yeah.
• 56:37
  But I went back and I read one of the columns where you... Maybe an interview with someone, where you talked about at one point, you, your fucking childcare cost $7 a day. Is, was that correct? Yes. Yes. Nine.
• 56:49
  Sorry, $9 a day. Nine. I'm sorry. Yeah, huge diff. Anyways. Yeah, no. Listen. I scribbled that down- And that's the kinda thing-... like a fucking crazy person when I read it. Yeah.
• 56:59
  That's the kinda thing that it's both, like, such a crucial... Like, my life wouldn't be possible. I don't think I'd have two kids without, without that daycare, 'cause I couldn't afford to have a second kid.
• 57:09
  And it's also, like, I don't like to talk about it 'cause it, like, puts... It's so unrelatable. Like, structurally speaking, it's fucking crazy.
• 57:16
  It b- it, it is, but again, like, m- my other job, the rest of this shit, like, I really appreciated the way you actually said all that shit.
• 57:24
  You were just like, "Now, to be clear, I couldn't do any of this shit if it wasn't nine, $9 an hour." Like, we have to say that out loud, because you have to show people, like, no, that is a thing. It is not impossible.
• 57:37
  It's just fucking choices people are making to not do that. Yes. To not let you go back to graduate school and do all that shit. Like, it's fucking crazy. Anyways. Thank you.
• 57:45
  Well, let me go back to my, my, my big roundup question. So, but you, is your son learning to drive? And my main question is that teaching kids to drive has, like, involves...
• 57:53
  Cars have an iPad in the middle of it right now. So, but, uh, is he learning to drive? I'll get back to my question in a second. He loves cars. We have learnt, taught him to drive in the country.
• 58:03
  Like, he can drive the car when we're in the middle of nowhere, but he's never driven in the city, and he has to take lessons, and that's all, like, we're TBD-ing that. He wants to do it, we just haven't started.
• 58:11
  But, like, for sure it's imminent. Okay. Imminently happening. Well, so I just wondered if you ever get caught up in sort of, like, future despair, basically. Mm-hmm.
• 58:19
  Like, this week in particular, you know, we're all getting shoved down our throat that AI's gonna get us, you know? And like, I don't know, sort of like, "Well, that fucking sucks. I don't know.
• 58:28
  Like, okay, I'll wait, I'll await that." You know? And, and I mean, I think it's normal to be like, "What kind of world are we giving our kids?"
• 58:35
  But, like, if you ever get in that kind of existential maternal despair, like, what gets you out of it, or what do you do about it? Maybe you live in a better country where that's just, like, not as prescient.
• 58:45
  That is quite possible. I'm just curious, like, if you get that, that vibe, and what you do with it when it h- when it comes up. I get that vibe about, about, like, AI in certain contexts.
• 58:55
  I mean, I teach college also, so like I'm exposed to a lot of younger people's questions and anxieties around this. Like, I, I really feel like I, I'm kind of a bit of a receptacle for them.
• 59:09
  And so I think for that reason I'm kind of like my job is to be optimistic and to be like, "I show you the things about the world that are awesome."
• 59:18
  That's my, like, role more and more, is, like, instilling excitement and optimism, which sounds very corny. Like, it, it sounds corny as fuck, I recognize this. But I'm like, I don't know what else to do.
• 59:30
  'Cause I just think that my despair is of no, it's of no utility to them. Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't think it has anything to, to offer them. I think they have enough of it as it is. So
• 59:44
  I just, I'm like, "Hey," like, "you wanna, maybe we could l- go surfing. Wouldn't it be cool if we went surfing as a family?" Like, that's it. Like, that's what I got.
• 59:54
  And I think I'm pretty s- I think I'm stubborn in my mind, where I'm like, I don't wanna talk, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go to the dark place with them because I just don't think, I, I just don't think I have anything to give there.
• 1:00:06
  And, like, I go to the dark place, that's like my time. Mm. Yeah. It's like the time for, you know- Me time... special me time. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  On that point, I was talking to my th- m- my 13-year-old and, and so my wife is a screenwriter and, and we watch a bunch of movies and, and, and we love all this stuff.
• 1:00:23
  And obviously, like, I've been sitting on a list of, like, great family movies and great coming of age and then
• 1:00:28
  the next chapter of, like, more adult movies, grown-up movies for, for kids, like, forever, and we're starting to share a lot of these with him. And I had a really interesting discussion.
• 1:00:36
  We, we all sat down and watched the other night, popcorns and blankets and all stuff. The kids and I had gone to see Project Hail Mary when it was in the theater, 'cause it was just such an incredible experience.
• 1:00:46
  My wife didn't make it to that one, so we showed her the other night.
• 1:00:50
  And I had a really interesting talk with my 13-year-old, who has expressed this before, 'cause I've talked about how I wanted to show him Interstellar and things like that, and how those are sort of cousins of each other.
• 1:01:00
  And, and he has said, "I really don't"...
• 1:01:03
  And he's very thoughtful and very caring, and he has wonderful morals, and, and I think they all do, but he was like, "I don't totally wanna step in the world is ending bucket that much." Mm.
• 1:01:13
  And so we've had this discussion, and I, and I wrote a post about it a long time ago, 'cause basically he said he wanted to watch Jaws. This was like three, four years ago. And I said, "Okay."
• 1:01:22
  He's like, "Well, I've watched Star Wars and Stormtroopers and it can't be that scary." I'm like, "It's a little different. 'Cause you can watch Jaws and not think for the rest of your fucking life this is an option."
• 1:01:31
  Yeah. It's very realistic. And I, and I expressed things to him in examples that he still hasn't seen. Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan.
• 1:01:39
  I said, "The first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan exists because at some point the people of those generation who were making it thought If I don't put this on film, we're gonna forget what happened and why and what people did.
• 1:01:52
  And I said, at some point, I would love to share those with you, but I get it. It's a lot. It is a lot to take in.
• 1:01:58
  And to-- Like how they stopped making Black Mirror, and I stopped watching it 'cause you're like, "No, that's just today. That's fucking Tuesday." Yeah.
• 1:02:05
  So I get that feeling of him being like, "Project M- Hail Mary was great, and, like, everyone is in danger, but it was funny, and there was the Little Rock guy."
• 1:02:11
  He was like, "But it treads a little close to the edge," and I'm like, I get it. And how do you-- But how do you manage that journey? 'Cause you can't put your head in the sand, right?
• 1:02:21
  We-- Not only you have to be somewhat realistic at times, but at some point, we do need them to engage in some ways.
• 1:02:27
  And I know that generation is capable and interested in a lot of ways, especially a lot of kids who are, have always been, you know, like the fish in water, subject to structural, purposeful in-inequities at b- at best that mean they have to participate in these things.
• 1:02:42
  But for someone like my kids, again, like, how do you take 'em on that journey where, like you're saying, like, "No, the dark stuff is for me. You don't need that, and it's-- I'm gonna do it my way."
• 1:02:50
  But also, like, we've been through some things, and how do we tell those stories and share those things with them so that they understand, like, again, $7 healthcare or $7 childcare is required, but it was a choice somebody made, and equality is a possibility, but that was because of 100 years plus of, of fighting that at least we can-- we wrote down.
• 1:03:10
  So I think about that a lot, though. I, I really appreciate that because it, it's hard.
• 1:03:14
  And like you said, your son coming home to watch or switching to big screen for YouTube and some guy who's like, God knows what they're telling your child.
• 1:03:23
  Like, they are exposed to so much more than we were, whether it's truthful or not. You know, I think about when my kids were little- Yeah...
• 1:03:30
  and the New York Times front page, 100,000 people dead from COVID, and I was like, "They're, like, five and six and seven. What-- Do-- Can they even cognitively process this if I showed it to 'em?"
• 1:03:40
  Much less to tell them actually it was 10 times as much as that. You know? So I d- Yeah... I, I don't know. I-- The answer is, like, I don't know, and I, but I think about it all the time.
• 1:03:48
  I do think that, like, history plays such an important role here.
• 1:03:51
  Like, I, I do think that, like, your point about, you know, all these things are a result of choices and decisions that people made and values that people have held.
• 1:03:59
  And if you kind of get into, like, really good films that are about something that happened 50 to 100 years ago, it starts to kind of like, in a way that feels a little bit less terrifying, demonstrate how
• 1:04:12
  people do society over time, to, to put it as stupidly as possible, which I think can be, like, that-- it's, like, a little bit like the shallow end of the pool, you know? Sure. Sure. No, totally.
• 1:04:24
  And that's what Saving Private Ryan is, right? It's this- Yeah... m-m-made-up story, which in a much larger canvas of, like, someone thought, "Oh, we can't let all four of this lady's kids die.
• 1:04:33
  So we're gonna send a bunch of people," who, by the way, throughout the movie, are like, "Why the fuck are we doing this for somebody else?" You know? Like, that's very illustrative. It's very interesting. Yeah.
• 1:04:41
  Again, within this very complicated, larger canvas, and now everyone who participated in that is gone. It's like, if you don't show them those things- Right. Yeah.
• 1:04:49
  James asked why we celebrate, 'cause he gets the week junior, and they had the anniversary- So good... for 9/11, and he, and he said, "Why are we celebrating? Why do people wanna celebrate the 25th anniversary of 9/11?"
• 1:04:59
  And I was like, "We're not celebrating it." I was like, "We are remembering that it happened." And I was like, "That's the same way, like, Pearl Harbor.
• 1:05:06
  I wasn't there for that, you know, and we've-- it's easy to forget about, and that's why it's on the calendar so that we, you know, remember that something like that happened."
• 1:05:14
  And it is really crazy to me to have all these generations of, like, not knowing what that was like, you know? And I, in a weird way, I'm happy for them 'cause I'm like, "You won't hopefully be as scared as we were."
• 1:05:25
  I'm sure you will, unfortunately. But, like, you know, that's kind of insane to think that someone didn't experience that.
• 1:05:32
  But can I-- If I can get off death and, and depression and existential angst for a second, what are you watching, Katherine, with your boys, like, when you are all watching something together, either a movie or a show or whatever that's not big YouTube?
• 1:05:44
  But, like, what is something you guys can all agree on? I mean, we loved The Office. That was, like, our, our core family show that, like, became our family culture, I would say.
• 1:05:54
  And Brooklyn Nine-- Brooklyn Nine-Nine was huge for me when my kids were a little bit smaller. Yeah. So I would say those. 30 Rock didn't work.
• 1:06:01
  The, the humor is too, it's too fast and too topical, and they didn't understand it. Mm-hmm. So as far as films, like, okay, so, oh, s- now we just started watching The Sopranos, which is, like- Ooh... very dicey.
• 1:06:15
  Dicey, dicey, dicey. And my husband, like, my husband is very, like, the-- We're all big readers.
• 1:06:20
  The kids read a lot, and my husband's like, "You guys just need to start watching stuff that's, like, as good as, as literature. Like, we're, we're in literature mode now.
• 1:06:26
  Like, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna fucking crank it up." And it's dark, and it's obviously super sad, and we pause it a lot to talk about it, and the kids seem like they're basically on board, but I'm kind of...
• 1:06:40
  It's, it's episode by episode. Like, it might- That's not the shallow end... we might not stick with it. Sopranos isn't shallow end- No... but it is literature, 100%. Yeah. That's kinda where we're at.
• 1:06:49
  Film-wise, though, like, I mean, we just-- This is gonna sound so fucked up.
• 1:06:54
  My kids really are, like, they, they love to read, and they read a lot, and my little son especially is, like, pretty hardcore, and we just watched Silence of the Lambs. [chuckles] Fuck yeah, you did. Yeah.
• 1:07:04
  But, like, again, we were like- Mm... this is a really unusual s- thriller where we, you know, like, a- and, and also with, like, is he a bad guy? He's a bad guy, but he's also kind of our friend. Mm-hmm. Mm.
• 1:07:16
  And, like, it's just so ambiguous. Like, there's so much to unpack, and we were kinda like, "He's ready for it." And- How did it go?... he was. Mm-hmm. H-how did he react? Uh-huh. Mm.
• 1:07:26
  I mean, he-- I was like, "You're gonna have nightmares for, for nights after this, and don't hesitate to come in and, and let us know. Like, I'll come comfort you." He didn't. He was like, he- Interesting...
• 1:07:36
  the next day, he's like, "I didn't have a nightmare. I think I'm okay." He just, like, got it, and, and he was like, "Wow."
• 1:07:42
  Just the cannibalism is, is horrifying, and I don't think that he'd ever really thought about it, although he just did read Lord of the Flies. You know, I think it went well. That's on, fuck yeah.
• 1:07:53
  I think, I think it went- That's, I mean, it's pretty binary. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah. Oh. That's awesome. So good. Wow. That's amazing.
• 1:07:59
  We, I just had a brainwave the other night that, 'cause I was looking at pictures from the Emmys, and Linda Cardellini was one in the slideshows, and I was like, God, she's such a goddess.
• 1:08:08
  And I was thinking about how Freaks and Geeks, like, was m- a really good show for showing the point of view of such a wide variety of people, especially girls. Right.
• 1:08:17
  And Lindsay Weir was a character I really identified with, and I was like, that might be the right time to show them that. I think, like,
• 1:08:23
  my older son could identify with the older ki- well, they could identify with all of them, so we're gonna, I think, try that.
• 1:08:29
  But Simpsons is our, like, go-to, like, when we have no other ideas, you know, and still, still slaps. Not every single episode- Totally... obviously, but you know, it still, still works. I love talking to you.
• 1:08:41
  This is so much fun. I think that we should wrap it up though so I can go eat my fucking leftover heated up stuffed peppers that nobody wants to eat. So anyway, everyone should read Brooding by Katherine.
• 1:08:50
  Subscribe to her newsletter- So great... Through the Cut, and The Story of Your Life is your book, how social media shapes the way we experience everything. Anything else that we should plug for you?
• 1:08:59
  You don't post much on social media, so don't even bother following you on Instagram, right? Don't even bother. Thank you, guys. This was really fun. I really appreciate the invitation. It was great.
• 1:09:08
  We might have to have you back. Yeah. I always need more friends, like all the only women in the house, like, we just need to stick together, so it's good to, to talk with you, and I hope your boys are nice to you.
• 1:09:17
  [upbeat music] That's it for this week. You're gonna make it.
• 1:09:31
  You're doing great, or you're just doing it, or just you, period. Just stop right there. But for more, you can hit subscribe right in your podcast player of choice.
• 1:09:41
  Please share our show with another parent in your life or anyone who might get a kick out of listening to what the hell we're going through.
• 1:09:48
  And if you have literally three seconds, just push your thumb against the five-star review button wherever you might be listening. But no pressure. Honestly, we know you're busy.
• 1:09:56
  Head to notrightnow.show for more, or send us feedback, questions, horror stories, doxing, whatever it is, at questions@notrightnow.show.
• 1:10:34
  [upbeat music]