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Are Electric Vehicles the Future of Overlanding? · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
0:05
Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I'm here with my co
0:07
Speaker 1: host Matt Scott. What are we gonna talk about today, Matt,
0:11
Speaker 1: We're talking about electricity. We're talking about the future of
0:14
Speaker 1: overlanding by default electric vehicles. I know there's going to
0:17
Speaker 1: be a lot of people that don't want to hear that. Well,
0:21
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody really wants to hear it, because
0:23
Speaker 1: we want to hear the clatter of diesels off into
0:25
Speaker 1: the future. But the change is happening, yeah, and it's
0:29
Speaker 1: going to happen so much faster than you expect. I
0:33
Speaker 1: remember the first time I drove an electric car. I
0:36
Speaker 1: was actually in This sounds relatively exotica pretentious, but it
0:39
Speaker 1: was on the port Tomouth circuit and in Portugal with
0:42
Speaker 1: the new Jaguar Eyepace, and they sent us out in
0:46
Speaker 1: the Jaguar F type little, you know, two door sports car,
0:51
Speaker 1: purpose built vehicle and did some laps and got some
0:55
Speaker 1: feedback on it, and it's like, oh wow, well this
0:57
Speaker 1: Jaguar's nice. And then they throw us in the electric car,
0:59
Speaker 1: which is stuff Jaguar I Pace. It's a crossover relatively
1:02
Speaker 1: pedestrian looking attractive, but you didn't expect much of it
1:05
Speaker 1: and it was a who to drive. I mean, instant
1:07
Speaker 1: torque people, is a huge thing.
1:10
Speaker 2: I want to say. It had around a three hundred
1:11
Speaker 2: mile range, which people for some reason. You know, they
1:15
Speaker 2: can have a you know, a gas vehicle that has
1:19
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five mile range by the time
1:21
Speaker 2: they put their bumpers and winches and things on it,
1:23
Speaker 2: and that's totally acceptable, but three hundred and you know,
1:26
Speaker 2: three hundred miles an electric car is a no go.
1:29
Speaker 2: But anyways, where I'm getting at this with this is
1:32
Speaker 2: electric cars in the future. It dawned on me right there,
1:35
Speaker 2: the things they're able to do with torque vectoring where
1:38
Speaker 2: they can send the power, the things that they're going
1:40
Speaker 2: to be able to do with you know, solid state
1:42
Speaker 2: batteries being structural components in the chassis so you don't
1:46
Speaker 2: have this big box just sitting somewhere taking up space.
1:49
Speaker 1: Even the way that torque just works with an electric
1:52
Speaker 1: motor is not only off road. Yeah, it's perfect for
1:54
Speaker 1: off road and the and the infinite control over that, yeah,
1:58
Speaker 1: you have it. There's no ur there's no way, there's
2:01
Speaker 1: nothing not building horsepower in a unique curve. It's all
2:05
Speaker 1: very linear and especially on the torque side, and that
2:08
Speaker 1: provides a lot better driver control. I think, yeah, And
2:11
Speaker 1: it's just like any other disruptive technology. It was just
2:14
Speaker 1: this last week that Tesla became the most valuable automotive
2:19
Speaker 1: manufacturer in the United States. So these disruptions are coming,
2:23
Speaker 1: whether we want them to or not exactly. And I
2:26
Speaker 1: was just recently on the Infinity thirtieth anniversary launch and
2:31
Speaker 1: they were talking about future planning for vehicles, and they've
2:34
Speaker 1: got five new vehicles coming out over the next three years,
2:37
Speaker 1: and three of the five vehicles are electric.
2:40
Speaker 2: It has to be I mean, you know, the internal
2:42
Speaker 2: combustion engine has really it should have hit its peak
2:45
Speaker 2: by now. I mean we're going on what over one
2:47
Speaker 2: hundred years of the internal combustion engine in mass production,
2:51
Speaker 2: and they're finally actually getting reliable. I mean you look
2:55
Speaker 2: even ten, fifteen, twenty years ago with Marx, like Toyota,
2:59
Speaker 2: they were still having failures.
3:01
Speaker 1: I don't know.
3:01
Speaker 2: As an Overlander, one of the things I look at
3:03
Speaker 2: as reliability and simplicity. Well, I don't have to have
3:06
Speaker 2: a starter, I don't have to have an alternator, I don't.
3:09
Speaker 1: There's no need of fuel pump. There's no fuel pump
3:11
Speaker 1: to fail, and a lot of these components can be
3:13
Speaker 1: solid state. Now, certainly with the adoption of any new technology,
3:18
Speaker 1: there's going to be a reliability curve and there's going
3:21
Speaker 1: to be an adjustment on the part of the consumer.
3:24
Speaker 1: I remember when fuel injection even first started becoming popular
3:27
Speaker 1: for for whel drive vehicles, and there was a lot
3:30
Speaker 1: of pushback from people that would say, I can fix
3:33
Speaker 1: my carburetor out in the field. Well, it turns out
3:36
Speaker 1: now with a new Toyota Tacoma, you never even think
3:40
Speaker 1: about the fuel injection system because it always works. Maybe
3:43
Speaker 1: every once in a while you've got to change out
3:44
Speaker 1: a fuel pumper or an injector goes bad, but that again,
3:48
Speaker 1: that is very rare. So manufacturers have really learned that
3:52
Speaker 1: reliability is a key towards future sales, and it's a
3:56
Speaker 1: key towards consumer impression towards their brand. So even when
3:59
Speaker 1: they may electric vehicles are going to be very mindful
4:02
Speaker 1: of the fact that these things need to be reliable.
4:04
Speaker 2: I saw a Tesla Model three a few weeks ago
4:07
Speaker 2: in Bay of La and Baja, so I'm just gonna
4:10
Speaker 2: go ahead and leave it there. It can be done.
4:13
Speaker 2: The future is happening now.
4:15
Speaker 1: It is. And didn't you say that there was a
4:17
Speaker 1: trip maybe in a Volkswagen that's already gone.
4:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say it was like a Volkswagen
4:22
Speaker 2: Pasade or Jetta or something like that. It was definitely
4:24
Speaker 2: a European spec spec vehicle. Yeah, that from from recollection,
4:29
Speaker 2: drove all the way from Amsterdam or somewhere in the
4:32
Speaker 2: Netherlands all the way to Sydney. And the guy again,
4:36
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, Unfortunately we couldn't pull up the
4:38
Speaker 2: pull up the story on it. But the guy just
4:40
Speaker 2: kind of traveled around and met people and charged his
4:42
Speaker 2: vehicle at people's houses. And I don't know, I think
4:45
Speaker 2: that's that's a huge part of travel, is that you
4:48
Speaker 2: know that that connection. You know, you have to you
4:52
Speaker 2: have to stop in cities and you have to charge
4:54
Speaker 2: your car. You do, you know, in the same way,
4:57
Speaker 2: but you have to get food and you have to
4:58
Speaker 2: get groceries and you have to get all that kind
5:00
Speaker 2: of stuff when you're traveling.
5:01
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking back, I think it was eight years
5:03
Speaker 1: ago that I did a trip with Brian mcvickers and
5:09
Speaker 1: Austin Andrews, and we went out with the Jeep J
5:12
Speaker 1: eight and we took along a zero dual sport motorcycle
5:16
Speaker 1: and it was certainly one of the first long distance
5:21
Speaker 1: electric motorcycle rides. We put baggage on the bike, all
5:25
Speaker 1: the camping gear, everything that you needed to travel, and
5:28
Speaker 1: the only thing that we did was we brought the
5:29
Speaker 1: Jeep along to charge it every night, because at that
5:33
Speaker 1: time the battery capacities were much less and they hadn't
5:36
Speaker 1: really optimized the range. But I was shocked how we
5:39
Speaker 1: could get forty five to fifty miles off road with
5:44
Speaker 1: a motorcycle like that, and it actually did really well.
5:46
Speaker 1: The only thing that's the most disconcerting on a motorcycle
5:49
Speaker 1: is you totally lose engine braking. Yeah, and you gotta
5:53
Speaker 1: have really you gotta have really good breaks, really good
5:57
Speaker 1: breaks on the thing. So it's it's important recognize that
6:00
Speaker 1: driving habits do change. Yeah, and I think that left
6:05
Speaker 1: foot breaking becomes even more critical for the driver because
6:08
Speaker 1: of that on demand torque.
6:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think things are going to be different,
6:12
Speaker 2: but things are supposed to be different. We're supposed to
6:14
Speaker 2: I don't know, as Americas are supposed to embrace change.
6:16
Speaker 2: We're supposed to embrace progress, and I, you know, I
6:20
Speaker 2: really hope that the overland community doesn't just, you know,
6:23
Speaker 2: kind of stonewall the idea of electric cars. I mean,
6:26
Speaker 2: you know, there's been a lot of positive mentions of Rivian.
6:30
Speaker 2: I think they're they've really they've really hit the nail
6:33
Speaker 2: on the head. I mean, do you know how many
6:34
Speaker 2: miles they're claiming on.
6:35
Speaker 1: A three hundred miles out of the vehicle. And if
6:38
Speaker 1: you looked, if you looked at the Overland Expo last
6:41
Speaker 1: year in Flagstaff when they had the vehicle on display,
6:45
Speaker 1: the response to it was overwhelmingly positive. And it kind
6:48
Speaker 1: of makes sense. Overlanders in general are they like the
6:53
Speaker 1: idea of things that are new. They like the idea
6:55
Speaker 1: of exploration. Many of them tend to come from technology
6:58
Speaker 1: because it facilitates track on the road. So I was
7:02
Speaker 1: really impressed with the size of the crowd that developed
7:05
Speaker 1: around that vehicle and the very positive communications that happened. Obviously,
7:10
Speaker 1: there's a there's a fear behind the idea of running
7:13
Speaker 1: out of gas, and the reason why we don't tend
7:15
Speaker 1: to run out of gas is that we can bring
7:17
Speaker 1: extra fuel along with US, and then the gas infrastructure
7:21
Speaker 1: around the country is massive. It's extensive. So when you
7:25
Speaker 1: go across the Canning Stock route in Australia, there's only
7:29
Speaker 1: one place to refuel and that's about eleven hundred kilometers
7:33
Speaker 1: into the trip. So that's a very long distance to
7:36
Speaker 1: try to drive an electric vehicle. So for the current timeframe,
7:40
Speaker 1: it doesn't it's not possible to do every form of
7:43
Speaker 1: overlanding with an electric vehicle. But if you think about
7:47
Speaker 1: North American overlanders in general, how long of a trip
7:50
Speaker 1: are they really doing between fuel stells.
7:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing is, you know, people are always
7:56
Speaker 2: driving to the max. I mean if you're driving, you know,
8:00
Speaker 2: if you're on an overland trip, which to me is
8:02
Speaker 2: also a cultural thing. You know, you're supposed to be stopping,
8:04
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be going on hikes, you're supposed to
8:06
Speaker 2: be seeing things. If you're consistently driving five hundred miles
8:10
Speaker 2: a day, what are you seeing? What's the point? Much
8:14
Speaker 2: like it's become popular to hate electric cars in America,
8:17
Speaker 2: And I don't know why it's popular to hate Tesla.
8:20
Speaker 2: Why is it popular to hate Tesla? The GM and
8:24
Speaker 2: Ford and you know, Chrysler products they've been giving you
8:26
Speaker 2: are are so superior. No, they're they're giving you the
8:30
Speaker 2: minimum for the most they can charge you.
8:32
Speaker 1: That's right. All of them are here.
8:34
Speaker 2: All of them are and and yeah, I'm sure to
8:35
Speaker 2: an extent. Tesla is doing the same thing. And Ford
8:39
Speaker 2: is obviously recognizing electric vehicles. They've done some big investments
8:42
Speaker 2: into Rivian and we're going to see and also is Amazon.
8:47
Speaker 2: So when you uning up with that kind of capital
8:49
Speaker 2: behind your your new venture, it's pretty exciting. I think
8:52
Speaker 2: it's I think it certainly has its place. I think
8:55
Speaker 2: the biggest challenge for electric vehicles around overland trap is
9:01
Speaker 2: when you like to go shorter distances off road and
9:03
Speaker 2: you like to camp a lot. So a good example
9:07
Speaker 2: of that would be like in southern Utah, if you
9:09
Speaker 2: were doing the route through canyon lands and you're going
9:12
Speaker 2: through beef basin and all of that. That takes days
9:16
Speaker 2: to cross all of that, and it is a long
9:19
Speaker 2: enough distance that it would be difficult to charge the vehicle.
9:23
Speaker 2: So and obviously solar is not anywhere near sufficient to charge.
9:27
Speaker 2: We like the idea of being able to put out.
9:29
Speaker 1: Three thousand watts worth of solar until you realize what
9:33
Speaker 1: three thousand wots of solar it is not encompasses, It's
9:35
Speaker 1: still a lot of space, and it's still not even
9:38
Speaker 1: possible to charge the vehicle properly off of it, So
9:41
Speaker 1: you end up bringing along The only real solution is
9:44
Speaker 1: you bring along a generator that consumes gasoline and you
9:47
Speaker 1: charge it that way, And that may be the way
9:50
Speaker 1: to do it on trips like that. That might be
9:52
Speaker 1: the solution around it, is that you have some form
9:54
Speaker 1: of a generator that you bring along. But those are
9:57
Speaker 1: the only real scenarios where you end up wanting to
10:00
Speaker 1: camp for multiple days, you're using air conditioning, you're charging
10:06
Speaker 1: components off of the vehicle, you're running a fridge off
10:08
Speaker 1: of the vehicle, which all those things are pulling electricity,
10:11
Speaker 1: And those are the scenarios where an electric vehicle becomes
10:14
Speaker 1: less ideal. But the vast majority of overland routes, including
10:18
Speaker 1: the Mohave Road and everything else, can be done with
10:21
Speaker 1: an electric vehicle easily today. Yeah, but I'm not worried
10:25
Speaker 1: about today. This is this is not a purchase that
10:27
Speaker 1: people are making today unless it's you. You well, yeah, yeah,
10:31
Speaker 1: you know, I have a pre order on one of
10:32
Speaker 1: those Uh well, yeah, put one hundred dollars down on
10:35
Speaker 1: a Tesla cyber truck. Now, I mainly just to piss
10:39
Speaker 1: people off, like if you want to if you want
10:41
Speaker 1: to piss off a baby boomer by a Tesla. If
10:44
Speaker 1: you look at the cost of you know, the cost
10:46
Speaker 1: per kilowatt hour of battery storage, it you know, it's
10:51
Speaker 1: a it's a graph line that goes straight down. It's impressive.
10:56
Speaker 1: You showed that to me. Yeah, there were years where
10:58
Speaker 1: the cost from just one year to the next dropped
11:00
Speaker 1: as much as twenty three percent, the last year being
11:05
Speaker 1: one of the smallest amount of drop, which makes sense.
11:07
Speaker 1: Once you start to distill down to its base of
11:09
Speaker 1: components and demand goes up for some of the raw materials,
11:13
Speaker 1: that will start to level off. But to see a
11:16
Speaker 1: multifold reduction in the cost of a battery that it
11:20
Speaker 1: takes to power these units, that's that's very exciting.
11:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean that's how technology works, right,
11:26
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember my first digital camera, I want
11:29
Speaker 2: to say it was something about a dollar per megabyte
11:31
Speaker 2: for the little Sony memory stick.
11:34
Speaker 1: Right, And.
11:37
Speaker 2: Being around kind of film people and and really being
11:40
Speaker 2: into photography, everybody told me oh digital, it's not going anywhere.
11:44
Speaker 2: It's too expensive. It's a niche thing, right, Like, okay,
11:47
Speaker 2: well how do you feel now? You know that criticism
11:50
Speaker 2: never comes back. But what's one hundred and twenty eight
11:54
Speaker 2: gigabytes of solid state cost?
11:56
Speaker 1: Now? Next to nothing? You get? You get in a thumb.
11:59
Speaker 2: Druve ye, what's a terabyte cost? You know, the same thing,
12:02
Speaker 2: the same thing will can and will happen. May not
12:06
Speaker 2: be as extreme, but you can't tell what the future
12:09
Speaker 2: is going to unfold. And the fact that we already
12:12
Speaker 2: have vehicles at you know, we're at like pushrod, you know,
12:16
Speaker 2: straight eight technology in terms of what electricity can do, right,
12:22
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's going to get better, it's
12:24
Speaker 2: going to get cool. But they already rapidly. I think
12:27
Speaker 2: they already meet demands. I mean, most people drive forty
12:30
Speaker 2: miles a day or less. So when people tell me
12:33
Speaker 2: that you know, oh well three hundred miles or three
12:36
Speaker 2: undred and fifty miles doesn't work for me, Well, you're
12:38
Speaker 2: just being people generally, just being obtuse.
12:41
Speaker 1: And I think it comes back to your point that
12:43
Speaker 1: you've made in previous podcasts, which is the difference between
12:45
Speaker 1: want and need. Yeah. I think people need electric vehicles oftentimes,
12:50
Speaker 1: and I think that the current range of the current
12:53
Speaker 1: mileage of electric vehicle meets all of their current needs,
12:55
Speaker 1: even their camping and backcountry travel needs. What they want
12:59
Speaker 1: is this idea that they could go travel across the
13:02
Speaker 1: Simpson Desert, or they could cross the Sahara in their
13:05
Speaker 1: vehicle and that and I think it's part of our identity,
13:08
Speaker 1: is this idea of being independent and this idea of
13:11
Speaker 1: being able to leave in a moment's notice and go
13:13
Speaker 1: on a long adventure. I think that that's still very
13:17
Speaker 1: much a part of the ethos of overlanding. It's this
13:20
Speaker 1: being prepared idea and this idea of sticking with a
13:24
Speaker 1: current technology because it does afford the ability to do
13:27
Speaker 1: something like cross the Simpson Desert. I think that appeals
13:30
Speaker 1: to a lot of people.
13:31
Speaker 2: I know people that have across the Simpson Desert and
13:33
Speaker 2: an evy Yeah, there you go. Literally, it had a
13:36
Speaker 2: lot of solar panels on. It was a little jimney.
13:38
Speaker 2: Any French, I want to say, that's awesome, broanic guy.
13:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, but isn't that exciting though? Yeah, Like that kind
13:46
Speaker 1: of thing is coming along and I think even more
13:49
Speaker 1: important than that is that as these as this technology
13:53
Speaker 1: continues to develop and as people continue to consume it,
13:56
Speaker 1: consumer demand will drive even more innovation. It'll rapidly change
14:01
Speaker 1: the way that we see an electric vehicle, and you're
14:03
Speaker 1: going to have something as capable that we see as
14:06
Speaker 1: a rivian today, but imagine something many times more capable,
14:10
Speaker 1: that has a fully adjustable suspension that isn't dependent upon
14:13
Speaker 1: CV angles and you can gain ten inches of additional
14:17
Speaker 1: grand clearance. I mean, it kind of blows the mind
14:19
Speaker 1: to consider what's possible once you put the wheels the
14:22
Speaker 1: motors at the wheels, or you put the motors where
14:25
Speaker 1: they're not dependent upon CV joints.
14:27
Speaker 2: And you have one moving component, then yeah, might be
14:30
Speaker 2: more than that. Really, the point it's much it's much
14:32
Speaker 2: more simple for sure. I mean the cyber truck thirty
14:36
Speaker 2: five inch tires, that's what they're claiming, and you have
14:39
Speaker 2: a CEO that's actually listening to people right now. Some
14:42
Speaker 2: people were tweeting at at at musk Oh, is the
14:45
Speaker 2: is the camping thing that you're showing in the back
14:48
Speaker 2: actually going to be Is it going to happen? And
14:49
Speaker 2: he's like yeah, sure, but he actually has a he
14:52
Speaker 2: has a track record of following up on that kind
14:55
Speaker 2: of stuff.
14:56
Speaker 1: Actually, if the guy can make flamethrowers, he can make
14:58
Speaker 1: camping st.
14:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't don't better, don't bet against musk As if
15:02
Speaker 2: you're betting against Tesla. I think what people don't realize
15:05
Speaker 2: is you're betting against American innovation. It's the only car
15:08
Speaker 2: company in the world right now that is pushing boundaries.
15:11
Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, people are believing the you know,
15:15
Speaker 2: the lobbyist stuff, the lobbyist opinion that wants you to
15:19
Speaker 2: stick to, you know, internal combustion engines, wants you to
15:22
Speaker 2: stick to buying crossovers, and yeah, yeah, I don't know,
15:26
Speaker 2: but yeah, that's absolutely happening. Although we're seeing that shift
15:29
Speaker 2: occurring the success of the current model Tesla's as it
15:33
Speaker 2: drove the CEO of VMW out of his job because
15:36
Speaker 2: he did not respond quickly enough to the demand that
15:39
Speaker 2: consumers have for electric vehicles. If you think about it,
15:42
Speaker 2: so much of our life is related to technology. Now,
15:46
Speaker 2: isn't it cool that our vehicle can now be that
15:49
Speaker 2: extension of technology? And certainly some of us either want
15:52
Speaker 2: to be ludeites or we enjoy escaping from technology. And
15:56
Speaker 2: maybe maybe you'll always have your diesel land cruiser. You have.
16:00
Speaker 1: It doesn't even have a computer exactly. So I think
16:03
Speaker 1: that that's a great example of where that older technology
16:06
Speaker 1: will never go away. The horse didn't go away with
16:08
Speaker 1: the internal combustion engine. There'll always be cool land cruisers
16:12
Speaker 1: that you can find diesel for. But I think that
16:14
Speaker 1: for daily duties and for shorter trips, these electric vehicles
16:18
Speaker 1: are really compelling. Well, maybe let's look at some of
16:21
Speaker 1: the models that are out now. What do you think
16:23
Speaker 1: about the Rivian? What's your thoughts on that.
16:25
Speaker 2: I love the idea of the Rivian, But Rythan to
16:28
Speaker 2: me is a technology company. They're a VC backed you know,
16:33
Speaker 2: IP play until they make an actual vehicle, until they
16:36
Speaker 2: start producing vehicles that people can actually You know why
16:40
Speaker 2: I got so excited about the Tesla's Tesla is a
16:42
Speaker 2: car company that's coming out with a new model. They've
16:44
Speaker 2: figured out how to make cars. They've gone through those
16:47
Speaker 2: growing pains, you know, the Jaguars eye paints a lot
16:50
Speaker 2: of pain. What happens when Ford makes an electric pickup truck.
16:53
Speaker 2: I mean, Ford knows how to make a pickup truck.
16:55
Speaker 2: Chevy knows how to make a pickup truck. A lot
16:56
Speaker 2: of these components, the batteries you know they come from,
17:00
Speaker 2: they come from Panasonic. I mean, you know Tesla likes
17:02
Speaker 2: to claim they have their own battery factory. Well, when
17:04
Speaker 2: you look at who's actually, you know, financing that is Panasonic,
17:08
Speaker 2: I want to say it's American AC and one hundred percent.
17:11
Speaker 2: Don't quote me on that. As the largest electric motor manufacturer.
17:14
Speaker 2: It's the same thing that happens with most car companies
17:16
Speaker 2: as they design a package that accepts components. So yeah,
17:21
Speaker 2: So with Rivian one hundred percent all for it. I
17:23
Speaker 2: think that they're really listening to the overlad community and
17:27
Speaker 2: I think that that's great. You know, they're outfitting their
17:29
Speaker 2: vehicles with the right products. Bill Burke is training most
17:32
Speaker 2: of their staff and their engineers. I use to live
17:34
Speaker 2: in Frudo where Bill lives, and every week, you know,
17:36
Speaker 2: they're sending people to get proper four wheel drive training.
17:40
Speaker 2: That's something that Tesla is not doing. That's something that
17:42
Speaker 2: nobody else is doing.
17:43
Speaker 1: They understand how the vehicle needs to respond to a
17:46
Speaker 1: certain driver input. I think that that's really valuable and
17:49
Speaker 1: you're probably right, wouldn't it be interesting? And I think
17:52
Speaker 1: that this will probably be The outcome is that Rivian
17:54
Speaker 1: develops such a compelling vehicle and they have so much
17:57
Speaker 1: compelling technology behind it that they get acquired much larger
18:00
Speaker 1: OEM and they never end up actually making a single vehicle.
18:04
Speaker 1: That would be that would be really interesting. It's possible,
18:06
Speaker 1: and and and that isn't that isn't a bad thing
18:09
Speaker 1: because Ran driving. Rivian is driving innovation right now. Seeing
18:12
Speaker 1: their camping systems slide out of that small cubby in
18:16
Speaker 1: the in the total very totally. Seeing the low center
18:19
Speaker 1: of gravity is extremely cool. Seeing them at at Overland
18:23
Speaker 1: Expo with roof tents and roof racks, all of that
18:25
Speaker 1: is is very very interesting.
18:27
Speaker 2: I frequently hear, oh, I hate electric cars except for Rivian. Yeah,
18:31
Speaker 2: and that's cool, Like that's what's so great about Rivian.
18:34
Speaker 2: But I don't know, Ord has a larger a large
18:37
Speaker 2: steak in them.
18:38
Speaker 1: I would Amazon.
18:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the Amazon thing is the one to watch
18:41
Speaker 2: because you know, Jeff Bezos is another guy like like Musk.
18:45
Speaker 2: Don't bet against him generally, don't bet against people that
18:48
Speaker 2: have you know that many schools, many that many scillions. Yeah,
18:51
Speaker 2: Rivian I think is really cool. I think it's one
18:53
Speaker 2: of the more handsome. It's beautiful.
18:55
Speaker 1: I really I personally find it's it's attractive, and it
18:59
Speaker 1: also looks rugged. It looks like an off road vehicle,
19:03
Speaker 1: but it also looks very modern at the same time.
19:06
Speaker 1: And I think that that was difficult to pull off.
19:09
Speaker 1: A lot of the electric vehicles, like the new Audi
19:12
Speaker 1: what's that one called the AI trail O their concept car,
19:15
Speaker 1: their concept vehicle. It looks like something that just came
19:17
Speaker 1: off the moon, which which I like, I get it,
19:20
Speaker 1: I get it.
19:21
Speaker 2: Why are people criticizing that? That's what I just don't
19:24
Speaker 2: understand electric cars is why are they criticizing visionary design, Like, because.
19:28
Speaker 1: You're right, all of the constraints change.
19:31
Speaker 2: You don't need a radio buicks, you.
19:32
Speaker 1: Don't need a radiator at the front of it or
19:34
Speaker 1: at the back of it.
19:35
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's not like a Forerunner or it's a
19:37
Speaker 2: coma is an inherently beautiful or cool car. It's just
19:40
Speaker 2: vehicle that suits the purpose and has to fit the
19:44
Speaker 2: packaging of the internal combustion.
19:46
Speaker 1: And and maybe that's the thing that changes, maybe maybe
19:49
Speaker 1: for me is I want an electric vehicle that captures
19:52
Speaker 1: this visual representation of adventure which has been set by
19:56
Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, whereas if you look at something like
19:58
Speaker 1: this Audi, it it's really maybe the future of what
20:02
Speaker 1: adventure looks like.
20:03
Speaker 2: Well, Mercedes did just say they're going to make an
20:05
Speaker 2: electric g wagon Scott, So there you go, perfect.
20:09
Speaker 1: Perfect, So yeah, there's there's there's a lot of interesting ones.
20:12
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the ones that we've seen for
20:14
Speaker 1: a long time, and I hope that they are able
20:17
Speaker 1: to pull it off. As Bolinger, they've been around now
20:20
Speaker 1: for five or six years actively pursuing this project, and
20:25
Speaker 1: they do have functional prototypes now, they have a lot
20:28
Speaker 1: of interesting technology. It looks it looks a lot like
20:30
Speaker 1: a Defender, looks a lot like a Defender one thirty
20:32
Speaker 1: in a one to ten, very squared off.
20:35
Speaker 2: Looks a lot like a car that was designed with
20:37
Speaker 2: an angle grinder.
20:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, it does, and I'm just afraid that
20:42
Speaker 1: it took too long to come to market.
20:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the idea of a very boxy bedliner
20:48
Speaker 2: coded electric car is cool. But again, five years or
20:52
Speaker 2: give or take right that they've been out and you
20:54
Speaker 2: can still reserve one, you can't actually buy one, so
20:57
Speaker 2: you know.
20:58
Speaker 1: And I can see their passion in the vehicle. I've
21:00
Speaker 1: talked with some of the principles and met them at
21:03
Speaker 1: different events and had some email exchanges, and you can
21:06
Speaker 1: tell how passionate they are about their product and how
21:09
Speaker 1: much they want this thing to come to market. But
21:11
Speaker 1: with the release of the cyber truck, it already has
21:13
Speaker 1: better technology. The Rivian conceptually has better technology. I think
21:18
Speaker 1: the advantage of the of the Bolingers is the ultimate
21:21
Speaker 1: simplicity and the massive payload. So maybe it maybe it'll
21:25
Speaker 1: end up having some good commercial applications with it. Yeah,
21:28
Speaker 1: if they actually get certified at that. Right, That's the
21:31
Speaker 1: thing is this is essentially vaporware. No disrespect to Bollinger,
21:35
Speaker 1: but bring your product to market and I will treat
21:37
Speaker 1: it as a as an actual car. Sure, great, great specifications.
21:41
Speaker 1: We're looking at right now, six hundred and fourteen horsepower,
21:44
Speaker 1: it has six hundred and sixty eight foot pounds of torque, right,
21:47
Speaker 1: I mean there's a five thousand pounds payload. That shocked me. Yeah,
21:50
Speaker 1: that's an incredible number. That's Dodge Ram one ten duly.
21:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's awesome, you know, But then you're
21:58
Speaker 2: looking at a two hundred mile range. Again, I support innovation,
22:01
Speaker 2: I support small business. I want to see these guys succeed,
22:04
Speaker 2: but yeah, I don't know.
22:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, their moment in the sun. It's difficult. And because
22:10
Speaker 1: this is a rapidly evolving technology space, we're going to
22:13
Speaker 1: see this kind of leap frogging occur where there are
22:16
Speaker 1: early adopters and there's early innovators, and maybe some of
22:19
Speaker 1: their ideas are reflected in new products. But if you're
22:22
Speaker 1: not up and running now and you're not selling vehicles
22:24
Speaker 1: and you're not gaining market share like Tesla did, I
22:26
Speaker 1: think you're in a lot of trouble.
22:27
Speaker 2: I mean, so here's a question for you, And this
22:29
Speaker 2: is a little bit off the cuff, but what happens
22:31
Speaker 2: to all of these companies And I'm going to exclude
22:34
Speaker 2: Tesla from this because they're established. What happens when Ford
22:37
Speaker 2: and Chevy and you know, Ram just put an electric
22:40
Speaker 2: drivetrain in their vehicles?
22:41
Speaker 1: Well, I suspect that what will happen that, like we've
22:44
Speaker 1: seen with Rivian, is Ford has a steak in Rivian.
22:46
Speaker 1: So Ford is helping to incubate these ideas and bring
22:49
Speaker 1: them to market in a very safe way, so that Rivian,
22:51
Speaker 1: for example, can fail and they can make mistakes and
22:55
Speaker 1: they can have missteps and they can have delayed deliveries
22:58
Speaker 1: and it doesn't reflect negatively forward. Yeah, but Ford has
23:02
Speaker 1: such a significance this is just purely my opinion, or
23:04
Speaker 1: it has such a significant stake in them that if
23:07
Speaker 1: they are successful and they do build a product that's viable,
23:10
Speaker 1: and they do get enough orders, then Ford's just going
23:12
Speaker 1: to sweep in and make that full acquisition and then
23:15
Speaker 1: you'll see it reflected in their product lines. They certainly
23:18
Speaker 1: need an electric Ford F one fifty. I think if
23:20
Speaker 1: you want to keep it as being the best selling
23:23
Speaker 1: truck in America, you better start thinking today about what
23:26
Speaker 1: that electric Ford F one to fifty looks like exactly exactly.
23:29
Speaker 1: Here's a contrary to it, though. You see GM is
23:32
Speaker 1: doubling down on diesel, which is kind of interesting. You
23:35
Speaker 1: can see that they're new suburbans and tahoes and they've
23:38
Speaker 1: got these at four high clearance off road capable SUVs
23:42
Speaker 1: that have small displacement turbo diesels in them, and they're
23:45
Speaker 1: getting really good gasmologe in them out of them. That's
23:47
Speaker 1: really interesting. They're almost ridging the gap successfully between the two.
23:52
Speaker 1: But what you've got to hope is that GM is
23:54
Speaker 1: also innovating electric at the same time.
23:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they have to write, they have to
24:00
Speaker 2: change that. Let's change the topic to I guess more
24:02
Speaker 2: to more to traveling with these things. I don't know
24:05
Speaker 2: how publicly known this is. I know there's been a
24:08
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of websites. But Charlie Boorman and
24:11
Speaker 2: you and McGregor of long Way Up, well this is
24:13
Speaker 2: called long Way Up. They've done long Way Down and
24:15
Speaker 2: they've done long Way Round. I want to say they
24:17
Speaker 2: were on Harley Davidson Live Wire Live Wires.
24:20
Speaker 1: That's correct, and they and I believe they had a
24:22
Speaker 1: Rivian with them. I believe they had one or two
24:24
Speaker 1: Rivians with them, correct, which is cool. And you know,
24:27
Speaker 1: I saw some some of the interviews with them that
24:30
Speaker 1: said they were kind of you know that, Yeah, they
24:31
Speaker 1: did have a F one fifty or or some kind
24:34
Speaker 1: of vehicle that did for emergencies, have the ability to
24:38
Speaker 1: charge these bikes. I think it's cool that people like
24:40
Speaker 1: this are pushing the boundaries. I mean, think of the
24:43
Speaker 1: way they changed the adventure motorcyclic landscape. We need people
24:47
Speaker 1: like this to put the idea in people's heads that
24:50
Speaker 1: you can do this. I mean you're you're way more
24:53
Speaker 1: experienced in touring on a motorcycle than I am. I mean,
24:55
Speaker 1: how many miles do you actually ride today? Not that much.
24:58
Speaker 1: You think you're going to ride a lot more than
25:00
Speaker 1: you will because the body, especially when you're riding dynamically
25:04
Speaker 1: off road in particular. Yeah, it's very physical. It's much
25:08
Speaker 1: different than driving a fold drive. So since I'm not
25:11
Speaker 1: a Baja racer, I don't have the conditioning level of
25:13
Speaker 1: a Baja racer off road in a day, I'm looking
25:16
Speaker 1: at about one hundred and fifty to two hundred miles
25:19
Speaker 1: when I'm riding and developing countries because traffic is slower
25:22
Speaker 1: and the roads are less developed and you're being far
25:24
Speaker 1: more cautious as a rider, I'm still barely getting one
25:27
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty miles a
25:29
Speaker 1: day in on the pavement. So the distances really are
25:32
Speaker 1: not that far. When you're on a motorcycle, your butt
25:35
Speaker 1: can only take so much in that saddle. It's the
25:37
Speaker 1: truth of it. And also, whoever said that travel was
25:40
Speaker 1: a race, it's not. There's people who do race over land,
25:44
Speaker 1: which is fine, and I think it can be an inspiration.
25:46
Speaker 1: You can learn a lot from it, and people do
25:48
Speaker 1: that as a sport or they do it as a trick.
25:51
Speaker 1: And I think that when it comes to motorcycle travel,
25:55
Speaker 1: you really aren't traveling more than about one hundred and
25:57
Speaker 1: fifty to two hundred and fifty miles a day. I
25:58
Speaker 1: certainly wouldn't want to, no, and not on a motorcycle
26:02
Speaker 1: with the ergonomics of a live wire which is not
26:04
Speaker 1: a touring bike, so that would be even more brutal
26:07
Speaker 1: to ride for really long distances and upright, very comfortable
26:11
Speaker 1: BMW with a lot of wind protection is very, very
26:14
Speaker 1: different than what the live wire is. But I think
26:17
Speaker 1: it's extremely cool that they did it. I huge props
26:20
Speaker 1: to them, and to your point, they did redefine the
26:23
Speaker 1: adventure motorcycling space and made it more popular. I think
26:26
Speaker 1: telling this story to a huge audience on network television
26:30
Speaker 1: or on high distribution cable is going to get people
26:33
Speaker 1: more excited about it.
26:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
26:35
Speaker 1: I think.
26:35
Speaker 2: I think electric motorcycles are incredibly exciting. I was. I
26:39
Speaker 2: was really into the Alta in duros and motorcross bikes
26:42
Speaker 2: before they had financial problem. However that went down. But
26:45
Speaker 2: you're starting to see electric motorcycles in competition now, KTM
26:50
Speaker 2: and husk Var and I are starting off kind of
26:52
Speaker 2: with the youth models. You know that what would normally
26:54
Speaker 2: be a fifty or sixty five cc bike are now
26:57
Speaker 2: going electric, and you think like there's no there's no
27:00
Speaker 2: motor to you know, burn the kid, there's no hot
27:02
Speaker 2: exhaust or something. You're starting at that young generation and
27:06
Speaker 2: these guys are going to They're going to work their
27:07
Speaker 2: way up. I mean when I people my age probably
27:09
Speaker 2: would have started on two strokes and then went to
27:11
Speaker 2: four strokes and that was a big progression. And you
27:14
Speaker 2: still see that two stroke four stroke rivalry. Are we
27:17
Speaker 2: going to see four stroke and electric rivalry for sure?
27:20
Speaker 2: I mean, there's going to be a new.
27:21
Speaker 1: Cake motorcycles beautiful. We got a couple of the Ubco
27:25
Speaker 1: tool drive bikes here at the office and they were
27:28
Speaker 1: super fun to ride, I mean, and they had plenty
27:30
Speaker 1: of capacity to load them up because they were designed
27:32
Speaker 1: to be used on farms. So it has the rear
27:35
Speaker 1: wheel has a motor and the front wheel has a motor,
27:37
Speaker 1: and they're surprisingly capable, particularly in snow and mud and
27:42
Speaker 1: wet conditions where you really benefit from a front wheel
27:45
Speaker 1: drive motorcycle, you know, configuration, and I know that they've
27:49
Speaker 1: got some new developments coming out that's going to increase
27:52
Speaker 1: the power of the rear motor, which I think will
27:54
Speaker 1: make a huge difference. But they were really fun and
27:57
Speaker 1: they were easy for people to ride. I put my
27:59
Speaker 1: dad on one and within minutes is grinning from ear
28:02
Speaker 1: to ear. I never ridden a motorcycle in his life.
28:05
Speaker 1: Within minutes, he was grinning from ear to ear.
28:07
Speaker 2: It's it's cool. I mean, electric can be fun. And
28:09
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like people get caught up in
28:11
Speaker 2: the minutia being so serious electrics fun, man, it is.
28:14
Speaker 1: It is actually really fun.
28:15
Speaker 2: You know, And I guess does shame me a little bit,
28:18
Speaker 2: you know, Scott, we obviously we both travel internationally a lot.
28:21
Speaker 2: We're behind in America.
28:22
Speaker 1: You know.
28:23
Speaker 2: I know that this is a global podcast, this is
28:25
Speaker 2: over a journal, but a lot of our listeners are
28:27
Speaker 2: in North America, and like we're not only in terms
28:30
Speaker 2: of opinion, but in terms of execution. We are way
28:32
Speaker 2: behind on this new wave of technology. And you know,
28:37
Speaker 2: I was in China maybe a year or so ago,
28:39
Speaker 2: and they have electric garbage trucks, they have electric buses,
28:41
Speaker 2: everybody's running around in little electric bicycles and scooters.
28:44
Speaker 1: And I wonder how much of that is the car
28:46
Speaker 1: culture that we have. I suspect that some of that
28:49
Speaker 1: is because we have driven so much technology innovation in
28:52
Speaker 1: other areas. I think that because it is a car culture.
28:55
Speaker 1: If you just think about US two and the number
28:57
Speaker 1: of cars that we've owned and the obscurity of them,
29:00
Speaker 1: we're attracted to that, either that idea of like you
29:03
Speaker 1: had a Corvette, very fast car, You've owned sports cars, Yes.
29:06
Speaker 2: That's public now, thanks Scott.
29:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've had a bunch of stuff, right,
29:13
Speaker 1: and those kinds of vehicles are exciting, and I think
29:16
Speaker 1: that that's part of the American culture. It's part of
29:18
Speaker 1: the American innovation culture. It's part of the American pop culture.
29:22
Speaker 1: Is cars. Yeah, and until as soon as they start
29:25
Speaker 1: to make electric vehicles exciting, which is what Tesla has
29:27
Speaker 1: done making super super fast.
29:30
Speaker 2: So yeah, so think about that. So, yeah, I had
29:33
Speaker 2: a Corvette zero six for a hot minute LT four supercharged,
29:37
Speaker 2: six hundred and fifty horse power, six hundred and fifty
29:40
Speaker 2: foot pounds of torque tires in the back as wide
29:42
Speaker 2: as I don't know a desk. But guess what's faster
29:44
Speaker 2: than that with four doors, air conditioning, autonomous driving capability
29:49
Speaker 2: like a Tesla Model S is already faster, Like Tesla
29:53
Speaker 2: cyber truck, it's faster zero to sixty, Like the internal
29:57
Speaker 2: combustion engine is outdated. There's a re and why horsha
30:00
Speaker 2: is doing the nine to eighteen hybrid. It has electric motors,
30:03
Speaker 2: like that's the only way that they could actually physically
30:05
Speaker 2: get the vehicle to go faster.
30:07
Speaker 1: And we're also not saying, I guess, kind of to
30:09
Speaker 1: wrap this whole concept up, we're not saying that electric
30:12
Speaker 1: vehicle is the only way in the future. And we're
30:15
Speaker 1: not saying that someone who drives an internal combustion diesel
30:18
Speaker 1: land cruiser twenty years from now is somehow eluded. I
30:21
Speaker 1: think that they'll still have their place. I think it's
30:23
Speaker 1: more about adopting the excitement around new technology because what
30:27
Speaker 1: that allows for us to do than is hopefully to
30:31
Speaker 1: go explore more. It allows us to use the same
30:34
Speaker 1: vehicle every day that we use for the backcountry because
30:37
Speaker 1: it has such a breadth of capability, which is what
30:40
Speaker 1: a lot of this new innovation and technology will do.
30:43
Speaker 1: I just recently got an iPhone Pro eleven Pro Max,
30:48
Speaker 1: and it has three cameras on it. It has far
30:51
Speaker 1: more computing power than a computer of even a decade
30:55
Speaker 1: or so ago, a lot more solid state memory. And
30:59
Speaker 1: it's amazing the amount of work that I can do
31:02
Speaker 1: on that device. It's amazing the amount of imagery and
31:05
Speaker 1: content that I can capture and share on that device
31:08
Speaker 1: which didn't even exist.
31:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, that years ago game changer. It's a game change
31:13
Speaker 2: that wide angle lenses be able to change perspective.
31:16
Speaker 1: Is I used to always bring a wide angle lens
31:19
Speaker 1: with me. I don't bring a wide angle lens anymore
31:21
Speaker 1: because it was only for very specific applicates like the
31:23
Speaker 1: inside of a vehicle, inside of a car, inside of
31:26
Speaker 1: a tent. I can now take all of those photos
31:28
Speaker 1: with the phone. So I think electric electric vehicles are exciting.
31:33
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to see what Rivan comes out. I'm
31:35
Speaker 1: off for it. I'm all for it. I mean and again,
31:37
Speaker 1: you know, you're totally right. This doesn't have to be
31:40
Speaker 1: for everybody. Nobody is trying to shove this down your throat.
31:43
Speaker 1: Nobody's saying you have to have an electric car. I
31:45
Speaker 1: just think it's important to keep an open mind. You know,
31:48
Speaker 1: one of the one of the few places America is
31:50
Speaker 1: really excelling right now as electric cars, and we need that.
31:54
Speaker 1: We need it because the car companies that you're defending
31:57
Speaker 1: are sent you know, they're sending in the jobs over
32:00
Speaker 1: So the same people that are seem to be hating
32:02
Speaker 1: electric cars and are waving the American flag or supporting
32:05
Speaker 1: companies that I mean, do they really care. You know,
32:07
Speaker 1: you have Tesla that's making cars in America, making cars
32:10
Speaker 1: in California. That's pretty shocked.
32:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's awesome, but you can I don't know.
32:14
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an interesting world.
32:16
Speaker 1: And it's an exciting time and there's been a lot
32:18
Speaker 1: of innovation in the Overland space and this is just
32:21
Speaker 1: one of them. And we want to touch on these
32:22
Speaker 1: topics in the future. So look for more technology discussions
32:25
Speaker 1: from the Overland Journal podcast as we continue down the trail.
32:30
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you guys.