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Spouse's Perspective: Q & A (OCD)(Episode 16) · Living Uncertain an OCD Podcast

• Marc & Stacee: Thank you for joining us on today's episode and Living Uncertain with us. We are not therapists and this podcast is intended to provide information and support. It should not replace traditional means of seeking help from a licensed mental health professional. If you like this episode or would like to hear more, please like, subscribe or share with someone you think may benefit. Here at Living Uncertain, we're building a community of support. Opening: Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Living Uncertain. This podcast is dedicated to obsessive compulsive disorder, OCD, and the primary treatment, exposure response prevention, ERP. OCD comes in many forms, such as contamination, perfectionism, checking, harm, superstitious, religious or moral, sexual orientation, and or relationship. ERP is the gold standard to treating OCD. Marc and Stacee: Hi y'all, it's Stacy. And along with my husband Mark, we want to thank you for living on Certain With Us again. Welcome to episode 16. As you all know by now, this is the podcast that talks all things OCD and ERP. And we are once again excited to be joined joined by all of you in another episode. And thought that tonight would be a good time to get more of the spouse's perspective on what it's like living with someone who has OCD. Opening: and it focuses on deliberately confronting fears, the exposure, while refraining from compulsive rituals, the response prevention. With repeated exposures and without engaging in compulsions, we learn to tolerate anxiety and break the cycle of intrusive thoughts. We are a married couple that have faced both the challenges of OCD and the incredible healing that ERP can provide to your marriage, family, and your home. As a person who lives with OCD, Marc & Stacee: If you and your significant other would like to share your story, we would love to have you on the podcast. Please click on the link in the episode description and fill out the interest form. Marc and Stacee: What it's like being a part of the therapy journey with someone who has OCD and some of the challenges and some of the highs and lows. And so thought that tonight we would do a little QA session with ⁓ Mark and I and I'll be asking some interesting questions that I'm curious to know about now from his perspective, seeing it from the spouse's lens. as we all know that when you have OCD Opening: I am much more than this diagnosis. We all can be. Marc and Stacee: The lens that you look through OCD in can be kind of skewed and sometimes you're not seeing the whole picture. And so it's so valuable to have that person in your life like I have, Mark, and how hopefully so many of you out there have a loved one, a spouse, et cetera, who can go on this journey with them so that you can get another perspective because it can be really helpful in the treatment process. So And I have a feeling the reason why this episode is happening tonight because couple weeks ago, you know, I met with our therapist one on one and that's been bugging you. Has it? I don't remember mentioning that at all. Not at all. Maybe maybe three or four or ten times. You know, about why. Sure. You know, and you're wanting to figure out right. So this is my this is my my This is your this is your way of trying to check in. This is my whole thing tonight, y'all, is to to secretly try to ask him the same question several different times to see if I can get any more information from him about what ⁓ he and she spoke about that that night. Yes, you've you've come up with my whole brilliant plan. You've foiled my pro my plan tonight. But no, that is that was not my intention. ⁓ but it is something that I've been thinking about because I think that your perspective on this has been huge to me and to our family, but also to our listeners, because without your perspective, without your help in the intensive therapy and bringing that into our home, you and I both know, as we've talked about several times, that I would not have made the progress, our marriage would not have made the progress, nor our family. So I think it's just a nice time to really bring back the the spouse's perspective on things. We'll bring ⁓ on. Here we go. What do you want to know? So here's I wanna know. ⁓ what has been one of the hardest parts of the intensive therapy journey for you? For for me it was watching you go through it and the struggles. ⁓ It I know you weren't in pain, physical pain, but it looked like it. Yeah. Through some of ⁓ Yeah. You know, that that discomfort to watch you sit in that discomfort when you as a loved one wants to you you always wanna make sure that your your significant other is taken care of and healthy, happy, you know. feeling good about life and all of that type of stuff and and to see you go through those struggles, that was really hard, but but I knew that those struggles were was was going to my hope was I didn't know it. It was the first time we had been through ERP. You know, we were taking the advice of our therapist and you know her experiences And thank goodness we did. Yeah, and and you have you have to rely on that trust. Mm-hmm. Just like if you go to a medical doctor, they're gonna, you know, prescribe you medicine A, B, or C. Right. And you're hoping that what they're prescribing you is is appropriate. And you know, so to have that trust to to with our therapist to see you go through that and and see the struggles. Mm-hmm. That was really, really hard. Especially when you were having to work through the death side and your panic attacks were actually hard answering my next question, which would be which which one of the kind of hierarchy of intrusive thoughts, fears, obsessions, et cetera, that I had and we did ERP for was the hardest for you to watch. I think well go through. I think because of the ⁓ situation that we were in, you you were you weren't at the clinic. Mm-hmm. You weren't having to people please any of the girls. Mm-hmm. You so that that was kind of put to the side. It was kind of put into, you know, a box. You know. Sure. We'll focus on that box, you know, later. Sure. ⁓ but the death was the hard one. Mm-hmm. And and to watch you you struggle. I remember the first night watching you watch just that. Animated video and you're on the ground hyperventilating over a really silly cartoon. Hey now. To me it was silly. Right. Well and I and I was and to me it was absolutely not, which is such an interesting And and I'm sitting there going, Wow, you're having that big of a reaction to it. ⁓ huh. You know, how did you watch any of the movies that we used to watch? And well you know I think that if we looked back at some of the things that we used to watch when we were in our younger years, you would track a perhaps pattern of when I would then have the nights I would wake up panicking and fearful and couldn't catch my breath and I think that there was a real correlation, which is why You know, watching criminal minds for so long, then taking a break from that kind of television because I couldn't handle it. And knowing that that was a real fear of mine that was impacting my life too, because even without that content, I was still panicking and waking up with night sweats and things. And so I'm glad that that was the first one we tackled, but I was interested on your perspective on what was the hardest one. I mean, I think it was probably also the hardest one because it was the first one we tackled. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and you know, we we were working on the other ones, but just, you know, sprinkling, you know, a little bit of, you know, here and there with the people pleasing and the the emojis and not, you know, how you texted and sure. Th those were were little things that you were working on, but But not to the point to where you're having a panic attack on the floor. Yeah. I think that was probably the hardest one for me to watch. ⁓ but I also saw the how quickly you worked through it because of the type of videos that ⁓ ended up in our logarithm, our algorithm, you know, for on YouTube and you know, with all the body farms that are around. You know, for decomposition for the police and this and that. And And for the record, I'm still sitting upright, everybody. You know, we we made it we made it through the We did. We did. So was there ever a part in therapy or a or a time, a moment while we were in a session? Especially the the earlier sessions when we were doing the intensive and the ERP where you kind of thought, Wow, this is actually going to work. I think it was probably the about the first month in. And and it and it went around it was around the text messages. And you you not asking me about, you know, is this a message okay to send to this person? And you pulled out the emojis and you you shared. Like I don't feel bad for not sending ⁓ with emojis. You even said I look back at some of my past messages, like why was I ⁓ I'm so I'm so cringed out by my past some of my past behaviors. That being one of them, the people pleasing and the need for to leave conversations, interactions just right and what I had to do in order to to do that in my own mind. I look back at what I did, I think back on what I did and it's it's cringy to me now. Yeah. And I think that was the time that I kind of went, Okay, this this is working. You're putting in the hard work. Because I know this was not easy. It's not easy for you to go through and and work on these compulsions every day. Yeah. and it's daily. You know, I I think, you know, you and I have talked quite a bit. I mean, obviously we're doing a podcast regarding around your O C D and other people's O C D's and this is quite the ⁓ i it's it's not where we thought thirteen months ago. Not what we thought we'd be. We would be sitting here today talking about your your fear of death and your, you know, text messages that you would send people and that you were you were okay. ⁓ With how you used to send them because you felt like you needed to send them that way, but but after going through intensives for a little bit you're like, Okay, that was ridiculous. Yeah. And you could see it now. Yeah. ⁓ I can I the Because I I would sit there when you would send them to me and I go like, Whoa, that's just that is you know, in my mind I'm saying that's ridiculous. I wasn't gonna say that to you 'cause I didn't I didn't want to start a fight because I because I know if I were to disagree with it, your your ⁓ you know Your anxiety would come up, the compulsions that people please, you know, it actually it would end up into a little bit of a fight between both of us. And sometimes I had forgotten how often I was asking your thoughts on the text messages that I was writing and whether or not I should send them, or if they sounded okay or not, or if this was appropriate or not. And again, just one more version of that checking in and reassurance that I was doing with you. To make sure that it was okay that I sent this particular text message. And I had forgotten, because I don't necessarily rely on that anymore. So it's it's hard to think about even the amount of times that I was doing that before and how much energy you were having to expend, how much energy I was having to expend just so that my brain could feel like I was okay. And to now feel like it's operating on a different plane altogether. It's well, again, it's pretty remarkable for for us and for our journey and our story and and to hope that we can give that support to others out there too is really Yeah an exciting prospect because it really is that game changing a thing. You know, if if you and your your spouse are struggling with one of them is struggling with O C D, you know, that that is something that I feel is is the most impactful thing is that that we did do the journey together, but we we also trust each other in in a lot of different ways. And I think sometimes in a relationship trust is not there. especially if somebody is dealing with OCD and you are confronting that person with OCD. I mean, think about how many times we used to fight about, you know, different things about the clinic. You know, I I saw it one way, you saw it the other, and you, you know, your OCD saw it another way. I should say that. It's not that you didn't see it another way. Your OCD saw it. in a different way. Yeah. And and that was the hardest part. It was it was those those constant fights and, you know, I just didn't want to do the battles with those. I knew they weren't it wasn't worth it. Because ultimately it was it was a fight that I was never going to win. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to hear you speak in those terms because It's such it's so exhausting, right? To go in circles like that and to keep that momentum up, to keep reassuring me, to keep allowing me to check in, to keep battling all of my anxieties, et cetera. And yet we talk a lot about this journey with ERP having been a journey we committed to the exhaustion for. Because on the other side it's very exhausting to go through it. And so my next question is was there a point in the journey that you were like, nah. I ha I'm all done with this. I don't really wanna I wanna throw in the towel basically. No. And and the reason why is because I knew the what the exhaustion was beforehand. ⁓ I love that answer because And and I'm and I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you why the exhaustion beforehand. You know, you would call me and check in and, you know, say, did I say this right or Do you think they're mad at me because I said this to them, or you would say, Hey, I want to send this text message. What do you think? You were calling me probably five between five and fifteen times a day. Now I never took and clocked it and tallied it and because I it's just became our norm. But when I'm trying to do my my day job. Yeah. And and when you're when you're trying to do that and deal with meetings or this or that or whatever and then you're cutting in line, mm hmm. You know, that that becomes exhausting. I mean, it's like, you know Going to an amusement park and you're standing in line, you're near the back of the line and you got people cutting in line in front of you and you're just like You're such an analogy guy. I know, I I am when we when we get when we get on the mic, it's like let's just draw as many analogies that I can do. It works though. It helps put things, I think, in perspective for a lot of different people. But but if you're standing there in line and you're waiting for that that ride and you got people cutting in in front of you and you're just like you you gets kind of tiring exhausting and frustrating. Mentally exhausting when you're just like, wait in line like the rest of us. Mm-hmm. And and I couldn't put you in line behind me or behind my work. Mm-hmm. You always were cutting in. Yeah. No, because that's what I needed. Yeah. Because I couldn't rest, relax, breathe, et cetera, without having it said to me in a way that felt just right, getting the response that I needed. that felt just right. I mean, there's so much. And I was only looking at it from that lens. And I I know I say that phrase a lot too because it's amazing how quickly O C D takes over in that way. And I and I wanna remind everybody, Stacey hasn't been driving all that long. No, I'm clocking what six months maybe. So in order to get to work, we would always carpool to work. When you're going to work, it's fine. When you're coming home, that's a different story if I did not, if I was not available during the day for her phone calls or her text messages. That 45 minute drive home would become a very long drive home. I mean, how many times would we sit in the driveway talking about stuff that we had started, you know, way too many times. 30 minutes prior to. And it just that was exhausting part of our, I think, my journey with your pre O C D diagnosis and pre ERP. So going through the ERP was kind of like that penicillin, like, okay, this is starting to work. This is I'm starting to feel better. You're feeling better. The kids are feeling better. I I see the stuff working and so when we talk about going through the the experiences, I never felt that there was a part in our journey that was difficult. Because we were always doing it together. Okay. Except for a couple weeks ago. That makes one of us. What well that makes one of us because there were some times in the ERP journey, especially in the beginning, that I was like, nah, I don't want to do this. When? And I didn't feel like ⁓ I think just I didn't feel like I could do it. Let me say it that way. I never felt like I could be exposed enough to. The subject of death, for example, to get over the fear of death. I never thought that I'd be able to send a text message without going through my very ritualistic need to let it stand where it felt just right. I never felt like I could stop the mental compulsions where I was convincing myself I was okay or I was replaying every conversation, text message, email interaction that I was having during the day. I didn't feel like I had the bandwidth to get through that. To sit in that discomfort. The sitting in discomfort felt like such a huge task that I didn't feel like I could do it. I think when you started to feel those little wins though. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was definitely exciting. Like I'll give you an example. The text messages, like you you would send them when they were pretty straightforward. And I know you'd always asking me after you had sent it and stuff and my answer was always I don't know type of thing, but your questions were always like, Well, do you think they're gonna be mad at me now that I sent it this way? And then all of a sudden they send you a reply that was like, Fine, honky dory. You're like, ⁓ crap. Well so Why was I doing that before? Yeah. And I got a good response now. Yeah. And this one felt good. And then I learned in therapy too. And this was a very poignant moment for me when it relates to the people pleasing compulsion, which was that the people pleasing, I'm only hurting myself. Cause I'm never going to get the response from someone else that I'm expecting to, even if I put out there something that I feel is just right. I can't control their responses. I have to be again, what do we say? We live uncertain. We sit in the discomfort. We do all of those things. And that's a normal part of life because you can't necessarily control. others responses, reactions, etc. And that's such a huge part of what OCD is is wanting that control, wanting that certainty, because anything else feels insurmountable to deal with. And just learning the very, very simple thing of you're only hurting yourself. Or you have living uncertain is a part of life. And you and I You even still do that with me, like you're expecting me to give a response that and I might have given a response that you didn't want. ⁓ so I would ask you again. Yeah. Until you And then I'd reframe the question and then ask again. Yeah. And and because you're looking for that that right thing. Even now you still kind of do it like, you know, you didn't respond how I wanted you to respond. I'm like, well, how did you want me to res you to respond? I asked you If I could just give you this script here. Yeah. Could you just follow that for me? That'd be good. You know, but you know, that's not how no relationships or people work. I'm not a mind reader. No. You know, I I can't see the mental compulsions dancing around in your head and No, definitely not. You know, I'm sure there's, you know, music that you we could put to it if you wanted to, you know. Wouldn't that be fun? You know, what does it sound like in your head? You know, do do do my gosh, I love that. Yeah, we should. We could That's you know, that'd be an interesting experiment, if nothing else. But I I even though you're we've gone through ERP and and we're still going through it and you know, I think recently was when I had that. Well that was I was going to spin back to that because that was an interesting comment that you made, except two weeks ago, did you say? Yeah. Now A couple weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago now, four weeks ago, whenever Well see, now I can't even well ⁓ please When when when I had the the one on one with our therapist and you weren't in the room and it was ⁓ yes. That night, you know, it has bugged you w ever since. Okay, all right. Well, so should we just should we just put it out there then tonight and you can just tell me what you talked about? No, absolutely not. See once again, you're trying to to pull it out of me and I know and I know you are. Yeah, you know you are. Well I am now. I just think it's funny now. But it it it bugged you. It did. It's because because be and and and here's why, it's because you and I have Almost every single session I have been there with you or you've done it with her. Yes. Either tell her because I'm working or whatever, but I was okay with that because it's it wasn't about me. Right. Now I talked with her and you felt left out because we've done this, we've been doing this together. This is just exposing me so much, right? You know, and now all of a sudden you're you know, I'm not a part of it. And Okay, listen, it did Bug me the first night and a little bit afterwards. It bothers me less now. Now it's become just kind of a joke and some banter between the two of us, and even including our therapist in that too. Yes, I'm not as bothered by it. But one of the things I said in an earlier episode, too, and I am interested in this, and somehow, some way, when we get connected with more people who do have this diagnosis, I would like to ask them this question is how do they feel about surprises? 'Cause that's always been a thing for me. I don't like surprises because surprises brings uncertainty, discomfort, things out of your control. Surprises for me, I no, no, no. I don't know. I don't like them. I don't appreciate them. I don't want them. And it's always been a thing for me. And so I'm curious what the statistic is, if you will, on people with O C D and how they feel about being surprised, having surprises, etcetera. So that's that was part of it for me, I think. A big part of it was all of a sudden I knew there was perhaps some ERP coming my way, but it wasn't it was going to be more of a surprise. Surprise. And that's the part that really sets me on edge and it makes me nervous and it gets me kind of in my head with some mental compulsions. thinking about how I could either get out of it, how I could get it out of you, whatever it is. And so that's a a big part of it. But I am and and for me, like when when the time does come for for for what? For whatever it is that you're not gonna wanna necessarily go through it. That's a worry. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ I'm sure. Are you worried about that, babe? Are you? Aww. I mean, but it's ERP. I understand. No, no, no, I know. And you want you want you want to stretch yourself. I think you're in part of the journey that you are like And I've had this conversation. I can tackle everything. Is but you know what? What's waiting for me on the other side of the ERP, the surprise, the whatever you have it, whatever you want to say, is going to be so much better. And so I try to welcome it. It's still a work in progress. Yeah. But I will ask you this what have you seen as The biggest success now that we're here. So we started this journey, our first episode of this podcast outlined February 19th, 2025, which was the very darkest day that we ever had. And it officially, like we've talked about, closed one door and opened a new one. And so here we sit, June of 2026. Where do you see the biggest success? Either with me personally, with our marriage, with our home life, any of it. I I do think it's your driving. Ooh. Okay. Because because even you know, you can just I mean Monday you went and did an eye appointment. I did. A you scheduled the eye appointment. Which, you know, at forty seven years old, you know You you scheduled the eye appointment without me doing it. You you went in there, you did it on Monday. Yep. You know, of course you sent me a couple of pictures of of glasses and what what do you think and that type of thing. But you know, that's normal every d every thing. And you know, you you you whipped out the card, you paid for it, you you didn't ask me is it okay if I spend this much money? ⁓ yeah, that's I would do that too, huh? I figured You know, you you you would go through every single step, like You know, with our with our vision insurance, before vision insurance, what was it gonna like six, seven hundred dollars, something like that? And then came out like two hundred and fifty dollars for for your glasses and lenses and everything. But like you would have freaked out the first time you heard that seven hundred and something odd dollar. Yes. And you would have been like, No, no, no, no, we're not doing it and you would have gotten up and you would have walked out. Yeah. There's a good chance I would have done that. I think about it now that At my age and stage, it's hard for me to hear you say something like that. But I do know that deep down it's the truth, which is that for the very first time in my life, I am actually living my life when I should have been living it a long time ago. And there's some guilt, some shame, some regret, some regret there. And I'm working through that because I feel like I missed my chance somehow. But I do know too. that I was dealing with OCD. I was dealing with pretty significant OCD. And it was impacting my life so dra so drastically. And it was driving every decision, every thought I had. And until I got out of that, I was never going to live my life. So even something as simple as driving to a doctor's appointment or paying a bill or sending an ⁓ sending a text message without asking your permission or your thoughts first, or any of the myriad of things that I've done now. ⁓ I've even let go of a lot of the mental compulsions because I've tried very hard to hold myself accountable for those because I don't want it to take over. Yeah. So that's interesting. And I love the drive driving is a big deal for too. And so I love that answer. I'm surprised that that's the answer because we've worked through a lot. Through ERP. But that one's giving you the most freedom and to be honest, it's giving me the most freedom. That's true. You know, that that's been that's been a big part of is is my freedom too with your O C D. You know, that's true. You felt trapped with your O C D and and when I think back and look at, you know, the first, you know our first probably five years of our marriage, you know, we before kids and stuff, I really didn't recognize any O C D tendencies or or anything that was like yeah, holding you back from life. Yeah. ⁓ I'm sure you were doing little things here and there and you could probably pick up on them, but I didn't recognize those pieces. it wasn't probably until a good six years ago, seven years ago. So then Well, let me back up. Probably when you started working at the clinic. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because Sundays were really, really hard. Mm-hmm. Because it was, I don't want to go to work. I hate that place. Mm-hmm. You know, you you would always try to find some reason to maybe try to stay home on Monday. Yeah. You know. Because I knew what was coming. The anxiety, the worry, the replaying conversations, the the the mental compulsions. Like I knew that was a big part of what I was doing all week long. And then I got a little reprieve from it on the weekends. And then I'd have to go back into it during the week. And that's why you always kept into your own therapy room. Yeah. Prior to to buying the place and and not be back in the cesspool of the therapist office and boy. You know. I mean, but that's just like a teacher's lounge. I mean, same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Everybody sits there, bitches and complains and you know I as as they did, yes. Yeah. You know, that that's just human nature when you that happens and you know, but I think you Hold yourself out of that because of your OCD. I think so too. You didn't want to say anything wrong to anybody to ⁓ gosh. Upset them or Right. Or even just saying something and then walking away from the conversation, feeling that icky feeling that I would feel if I didn't didn't feel like I had left it just right. And then I would actually have to circle back to people sometimes, either in a text message or in a personal conversation, and do something and and it was ritualized. and do it again or say something again so then I could walk away feeling like, okay, that was that was better. That was better. Okay. I'm good now. But it's funny, you you could ⁓ manage the difficult parents really well. I I never I never really ever heard you say, Man, I had, you know, I mean, you would say you had difficult parents, but you never had issues with what you said. I think that's because you also knew what you were talking about. You were very confident in your skills in your your knowledge of your profession. Yeah, that's true. And I think that also there were some mental compulsions I probably engaged in when I would deal with upset parents. And then I would just try to allow those to let it to to kind of help me get past the anxiety or the the the icky feeling. ⁓ but yeah. Yeah, that that's a that's a hard one, you know, on that side. It is. ⁓ what would you say in terms of our family and the way our family operates outside of my driving if there is one that has been the biggest Change. I think the freedom for our kids. Yeah. I kind of had a feeling you're gonna say that. And and I knew that's that was a a time that And I think they would both say that if they were sitting here with us. Yeah, absolutely. But I I do think that I mean, what if I said you're going to the horror movie tomorrow? Or on Friday Gross with Avery. No. No. No. Why not? Because no. Why not? I you know why. Why? 'Cause it they're scary. Besides anything else? No. Okay. And I stand by that answer. No, I think there's more there. No. Nope. I'm not. No. I'm just it's scary and I don't like ⁓ so I'm not gonna do it. But I think the the where the ERP was working was Miles' trip to Disneyland. Yeah. Or I couldn't have contact with him. You couldn't have contact with him and and only I could and and I had minimal contact because that's what you know it was. And and that felt good for him. Yeah. It felt good for me. I know it probably did not feel good for you, but you felt it was not fun for me. But you felt you looked like you felt comfortable. You didn't have any panic attacks. I did not. And by then I had been through enough of the ERP and we had been bringing it into our home and a lot of sessions with our therapist had kind of gotten me that to that point. It was a month and a half. Worth the therapy at that point. Yeah. Which it was in in the intensive world of therapy, that's quite a bit already. I know. But it was one of the bigger the bigger things that you had to do, that you had to allow happen. Mm-hmm. ⁓ with the ERP. Yeah. You know, you had already probably I you'd already walked through cemeteries at that point and you know, on the death side and Yes. And I was doing the the the C CQs clear, concise, and quick with my text messages. Yep. So I was already doing that. Yep. So I think that was the other point where I went, okay, this is this is working. This is this is something that looks like it's gonna stick. Yeah. So now that you've answered what have the most successful things been, what's something that you still struggle with with me, or s what do you still see that can be improved? There's so many. No, no. I knew that answer was coming too. Fine. ⁓ I think it's the you still do the worry. Like if you text somebody and they don't text you back right away, or they might take, you know, twenty four hours, you know, forty eight hours to text you back, you sometimes you go down that mental compulsion rabbit hole of what did I do? Did I say something wrong? Mm-hmm. You did that recently. I did. You know, with Miles graduation. You know, you sent some I did some photos and a you know, text message and stuff and there wasn't a reply right away. Yeah. and and you you started to spiral on that one. I did. You're right. And and so that that's the one places that I still see you struggling if somebody's not see that struggle myself. Yeah. I can feel I feel that struggle myself. But honestly that's actually unknowingly to them, the people I'm texting or messaging with. is good ERP for me because it allows me to sit in the in discomfort, right? And as we all know now, when we sit in discomfort and allow our anxiety to get to its height and then be able to bring it back down without engaging in some sort of compulsion, whether physical, mental, or otherwise, mine would have been texting again and then texting again or checking in with you ten times, twelve times, whatever it might be. This time you did. Okay. I'm I'm trying to hey. I know, but I'm I'm trying to lay out a a process here. You did on this time and that was I know I did. I did. A little difficult. But the the idea is that you let the anxiety come up, come back down, and not engage in the compulsions. Yeah. There is the idea that you give yourself grace too. I give myself grace, I give you grace, we give each other grace because it's not going to be a perfect scenario yet. I still have O C D and I will tomorrow and next week and next year. I just manage it much differently now. And like with that scenario with the text messages, I think you asked me three or four times. Hey, that's progress. Well, no, I know. And and I would say, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know until finally I knew that it was something that I couldn't keep pushing off. Right. Well, you weren't engaging my compulsion, which was to ask you again and again. You would say, I don't know or I'm not sure. Yeah. And that was allowing my anxiety to continue to go up and allowing me to continue to sit in discomfort until I brought myself down. Yeah. And so that's where we've really learned a lot. Or let me ask you this, what's what's the most interesting thing about O C D that you have learned in this whole process? Not just about mine specifically necessarily, but O C D in general. I find out high I one one of the thing like I I listen to a lot of podcasts regarding, you know, people's stories with O C D's and with O C D and stuff and the complexity of it. That is what I have found so fascinating about it to the point to where I have even thought about going back to school. I mean, I'm I'm twenty two years into education now and it's like, you know, changing careers, you know, at forty eight. Yeah, it can happen, but going back to school. Mm-hmm. And putting in forth a lot of that time and effort that would go to it, you know, that's that's one of the things that probably holds me up on it. ⁓ but how complex it is, and you're never gonna have the same scenario twice, probably with people. Sure. You know, you hear about, you know, certain things that are the same, you know, like, but how they affect. The person is very different. Well, a lot of the rituals or a lot of the compulsions remain the same, but they become because there's different what we call targets, right? Which we had a an episode labeled moving targets, which kind of discusses how OCD moves targets and s and switches around. And just when you think you've gotten it under control, something else comes up and it's really challenging your process of. not engaging in the compulsions. And those compulsions are what kind of stay the same are ritualistic. It's the targets and the worries and the anxieties that oftentimes move on you. Yep. So then you're always you're constantly trying to find well headway. And I and I will say this, and this is probably the hardest part for me with the O C D with you is I've always felt like I've and you've said this to me too, you know, like I'm like the fixer. Yeah. I like to fix people's problems. Yeah. You know, I do I promise as as a principal, you know, I try to, you know, fix any problems that are in front of me and and sure to make things better for everybody. Which you are in the long room. Really good at doing, by the way. You know, so that that was the hard thing was trying to like with your O C D I was always trying to fix your problem. Mm-hmm. And I knew I couldn't do that. Mm-hmm. That yeah, the is the the process we went through is kind of counterintuitive to what. what you had done before and what we thought we were doing to work through it. And once we kind of got the hang of that, it became a more interesting journey as well. Well, I knew that was the that was the ⁓ the ERP was the medicine for your O C D and I knew that if we stuck to that, that was fixing the problem per se. And I I'm not saying your O C D's a problem. I'm just saying that that's what you're saying. But it's it's what we that's what I looked at it as is okay, if I let you sit in the discomfort, that is helping solve the what's at hand here. Yes. Yes, definitely. You know, so then it became very easy for me to, you know, sell you out in therapy and because I knew it was actually ultimately gonna help you down the road. And I did. Yeah. Every time, even though it was not comfortable comfortable sometimes or a little Annoying at other times. I knew in hindsight that it was the best thing. Which nobody likes to be called out on things or anything. No, definitely not. But it's ⁓ I don't and you don't and our kids don't. And I mean it's human nature. Sure. You know, and but I think in the long run it it has helped you tremendously be where you're sitting now. Definitely. And it's not going away, everybody. We keep saying that. Not going away. But it's how you deal with it. Mm-hmm. That's why you've got your tattoo. Mm-hmm. You know, living uncertain. You you look at that all the time. Yep. Because you have to sit there in that discomfort and Yeah. You know, and I do know you don't like it when I say, Well, is this your O C D? No, we've mentioned that before too, because no, I don't like to hear you say that because of course it's my O C D. Yeah. It's always my O C D. And that just gets frustrating to hear too, but in a way that well, I think it's frustrating for you because you've worked so hard. Yeah. You you want it to be done. You I I want it slate now. You want to, you know, I'm I'm I'm all better now. I feel good, everybody. So of course I want a clean slate and just everything from this moment on to be absolute perfection. Yes, of course. But but it's not, you know, and I and you know that. And so like when I do call it out, you know, behaviors as your O C D then that, you know, I know that's frustrating for you. And yeah. You know, I try to I try not to but the way you do it now is so much different too than the way we you that you perhaps used to do it. And so it's easier for me to hear you. Yeah. Even when we were on this journey. Even when we were ⁓ post my O C D diagnosis, you would say something and it would frustrate me more less now. I get much less frustrated with you saying those kinds of things now. Cause it does allow me to take accountability, to think about it for a minute, and to recognize and make a different choice. You know, and and it it's the last week we were in therapy, you know, one of the things I did ask our therapist, you know, out of one to ten, what where do you feel that Stacey was sitting in? Mm-hmm. Because everything I've heard from other people and some of their their stuff that they're dealing with and stuff, I'm like, Holy cow, those people have a lot on their plates and they're dealing with they've dealt with so much and they persevered. For sure. Especially the one podcast I listen to, they they talk about how they have dealt with their O C D and through ERP or ACT or those type of things. And ⁓ You know, and so when I hear their stories and I was you know and comparing it to you and living with you, I felt like you were sitting about an eight and you know, and our therapist's like, No, you're at a twelve. Mhm. You know, and and I think that's because I'm living in it. Yeah, that's true. It probably felt more like an eight for me and and actually not you know, but it just so that felt good. I mean, for you it was probably reassuring though that you know, hey, I was at a pretty high level. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it was impacting so many aspects of your life. Yes, it was. It came to the point where you you wanted to end your life. Yeah. You know, so that yeah, that's a that's a twelve. That's a twenty to me. Yeah. You know, that one day, you know, that was a hard day for us. And it was. And you know, so but everything else I was kind of looking at outside of that one day. But when I focus in on that one day, yeah, you were definitely at a twelve. It was impacting your life so much you couldn't even you didn't want to be around anymore. Mm-hmm. And that was hard. I know. It was hard for me too. So and I'm glad that we closed a door so that we could open a new one. And this podcast being a very big part of the new door and the new chapter that we've opened. And that's exciting and and motivating in so many different ways. And so I just have one more question for you. All right. I'm ready. Okay. So you remember a couple of weeks ago when we were in therapy and we were all kind of sitting in a different room and then she called you into the room to chat. I'm just wondering if you could share with our listeners what you guys talked about. You see how I did that there? You you you have you have to leave the room and you may not listen to the episode. Our therapist will appreciate hearing that too. She'll get a kick out of it. Everybody will hear about it down the road. I guess. ⁓ yes. No, no, of course. Yeah, we'll sh we'll share that fun with with everybody. Of course we will. So I just I wanna thank everybody for listening. You know, it does mean a lot to both Stacy and I. If you've been out, you know, if you listen to every episode or almost every episode, we really do appreciate it. And, you know, if you are f you know, following us and and would, you know, like our episodes and or comment on ⁓ and you know, so we can thank you personally. We would really like to do that and we sure would. Or if you know of anybody that wants to join our show for any reason to talk about O C D, please, you know, reach out to us and ⁓ we'd be more than happy to have people on the show to hear other people's perspectives too. ⁓ but both I know Stacy and I are gonna continue to have more stories, more fun things that happen to us every week. Yes, absolutely. and and it does, unfortunately. Yeah. You know, we always have things happen to us every week. And we do. That's why we're able to continue to move forward with the show. Mm-hmm. But it becomes very humbling for us to know that we have so many listeners out there and and that are hearing our journey and and to build this community of support is is really important to both Mark and I. And so if if you all, if anyone out there has a story to share or knows someone who has a story to share, please reach out. Cause we have anywhere anywhere across the world. Our platform to be the ones that they feel safe and secure enough to be able to do so. Yeah. We appreciate you all listening again. And thanks for living on us. And that's the one.