Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How To Be A Compassionate Ally for Women in Tech with Salmaan Sana | Ep 128

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How To Be A Compassionate Ally for Women in Tech with Salmaan Sana | Ep 128 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:10
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
0:13
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
0:16
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:20
each other. Join me on a journey into the
0:23
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
0:28
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
0:32
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
0:36
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
0:45
Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning into episode 128.
0:51
My guest today is Soman Sana. Soman Sana is a former medical
0:56
student turned leadership consultant.
0:59
Today, he helps organizations and teams rediscover connection,
1:03
belonging, and alignment through inclusive leadership and
1:07
emotional awareness. In this episode, Salman takes us
1:11
into the world of allyship, compassion, and equality.
1:16
By listening to this episode, you'll learn what his
1:19
frustration with the healthcare system taught him about making
1:22
work more human. Why inclusive environments don't
1:27
happen naturally, and how awareness shapes every decision
1:30
we make, and how small everyday moments become the moment where
1:36
allyship actually happens. Plus, you'll discover why Salman
1:40
believes that overcompensation is sometimes the best way to
1:44
correct for systemic inequity. What I like about this episode
1:49
is how full it is of personal anecdotes and practical examples
1:53
from someone's own experience. Through them, he shows his own
1:58
dilemmas and vulnerability, and in doing so, he helps me and
2:03
others shift their perspective. Before we start, I want to
2:08
highlight an event that embrace health organizers on the 3rd of
2:11
December 2025 at Equals in Amsterdam titled Understanding
2:17
Women's Health. As you know, I'm really
2:19
passionate about the need for everyone to learn more about how
2:23
Women's Health works and how it is different from the health of
2:27
men. Visiting this event will help
2:30
both men and women better understand Women's Health and
2:34
how it impacts energy, mood, productivity, and overall
2:38
well-being at every stage of life.
2:41
For more information and for tickets, please check out the
2:44
link in the show notes or search for understanding Women's Health
2:49
in the Luma app. So when you're ready to listen
2:54
and learn how to be a compassionate ally for women in
2:58
tech, please welcome to women disrupting tech Soman sana.
3:03
Hey soman sana, good to have you on women disrupting tech.
3:07
A question that I always ask at the start is how you.
3:10
Got into your current job or current position and the.
3:13
Floor is yours. Thanks.
3:15
Thanks for having me on as well. They're jumped.
3:18
I feel very honored and yeah, grateful to have this
3:22
opportunity to be on your podcast and show.
3:25
And let's see, how did I get to my current job and position
3:29
While I was studying medicine in Amsterdam, that's when I became
3:34
very, let's say, confused and frustrated with how the
3:38
healthcare system was being organized.
3:41
I saw that a lot of people that I knew, colleagues, friends,
3:45
people that I work with were all suffering from chronic fatigue.
3:51
They were getting depressed. Some people didn't want to
3:52
continue working as a doctor anymore.
3:54
They were losing their passion for the work that for this this
4:00
this vocation and job that I also once started for the same
4:06
reason, which was, you know, you want to help people.
4:09
And within that came this wish to see what I could do to help
4:14
change the way Healthcare is being organized or the way the
4:17
system is. Early on as a Med student, I was
4:22
very highly involved with medical education.
4:24
I also learnt about what it meant to develop your leadership
4:29
skills via this International Association for medical
4:33
students. And it's about 20 years ago now
4:36
that I became in, in that system.
4:38
I became something called trainer, trainer or facilitator.
4:42
And when I started to train other Med students, young
4:45
doctors, managers within organizing within within
4:47
healthcare systems, that I realized, wait a second, my way
4:51
of being able to change things does not per SE need to be by
4:56
being a doctor myself, but I see that I have a certain Yeah, what
5:01
could it be like? I, I had a certain Nat for being
5:04
able to guide others in getting somewhere via series of
5:10
questions, thoughts, methodologies.
5:12
And maybe a very interesting example is together with a
5:14
friend of mine, we read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective
5:16
People. I think it's a very kind of
5:18
classic leadership book that everybody who who deals with
5:21
leadership should have read it at least once.
5:23
And I read it in my very, very, very early years.
5:27
And we developed the training specifically for Med students
5:32
and young doctors. We just read the book and we
5:34
said, OK, every single Med student, young doctor needs to
5:37
know about this. Every healthcare worker needs to
5:39
know about these 7 habits. How do they, why do they not
5:42
know this yet? Right.
5:43
So we organized the day. I think we, we, we, we found a
5:47
room in the faculty on a Saturday and we just piled up a
5:50
couple of students that we knew. And then we gave this training
5:53
to them. And what I loved about that was
5:56
it kind of, it was a bit of a glimpse into my future, which I
5:59
was, if I see there's a topic or something that could help
6:02
people, I want to see how I can translate it so that I can
6:04
transfer that message to more people.
6:06
But what I also want to be clear about is that one thing that
6:10
also comes up with me, and this is 20 years later, it's just the
6:14
same. Those questions and those
6:16
methodologies that those books or resources that I go through,
6:18
they're often things that I'm still working through.
6:22
I have not figured all this stuff out, far from it.
6:25
I'm still a very, I would say quite, quite a big work in
6:28
progress. And I don't mind that either.
6:30
I think it's also about, you know, this, this, this wish to
6:34
continue to find a way to become an example myself.
6:38
And in that is this kind of journey of yeah, that's the
6:42
maybe the advantage of being busy with topics about
6:45
leadership development and about, you know, culture and
6:47
organizations. But let me just go back to that
6:50
story. So I was a Med students started
6:51
giving training in workshops, started a we with a couple of
6:54
people. We did a different initiatives.
6:56
We started, for example, a foundation on a compassionate
6:59
healthcare, how to cultivate compassionate healthcare.
7:01
It became an NGO. I gave a Ted talk about it in
7:05
2011 and around about that time with a with a with a similar
7:10
same group of friends, we organized the healthcare
7:13
leadership summer schools. We did a couple of additions, 2
7:16
in the Netherlands, one in South Africa, one in Portugal, where
7:18
we gathered, I don't know, 50-60 Med students, young doctors,
7:23
people that were within healthcare and we just took them
7:25
on a personal journey towards changing healthcare.
7:28
But at the same time, I was also just busy with how to change
7:32
medical education, how to what leadership skills are really
7:36
needed to be able to have an impact on the surrounding or an
7:39
influence on your surrounding. And I think that's where it
7:43
really shaped to think, OK, what is it that I want to do with my
7:46
future? Where do I want to focus on my
7:48
time and attention? And it was around that same
7:50
period in the early 2000 tens that I got in touch with an
7:54
organization called Better Future.
7:56
And I've been working with them kind of going back and forth.
7:58
And then by 2015, after doing a couple of programs with them as
8:04
a facilitator, it felt really right to join them.
8:07
So I joined them as a as a consultant slash facilitator and
8:11
and that was actually one of the best decisions I could have made
8:13
because they were working a lot with executive teams, trying to
8:18
change organizations to become more impactful, making them more
8:21
conscious about who they are, what they stand for, what their
8:24
leadership is, but more so about what they're contributing to the
8:26
world. And I think that marriage of all
8:28
those different things coming together was exactly what I was
8:31
looking for. Because one thing that
8:33
constantly frustrates me is why is it that we can't look at, we
8:38
have to on the one side look at ourselves, but the other side
8:40
look at the world around us and what's happening in the world
8:43
and what can we do to make a positive change there?
8:46
So I, I think if I look at my path and how it shaped where I
8:51
am today, that being a Med student and that realizing that
8:56
there's something's wrong in the system and wanting to change it
8:58
has been one of my biggest drivers.
9:00
But then I realize it's not just the healthcare sector, but many
9:04
of the sectors that have a have for me, Well, they're the ones
9:08
that I that I feel like there's a lot of change needed.
9:11
So I've been doing in the last five or ten years, there's work
9:15
that I've done in the finance sector, working with different
9:17
banks, There's the legal sector, working with different law
9:19
firms. There's the food service sector
9:23
where there's a lot of different food and beverage, you know,
9:25
companies, often international, global ones.
9:28
And each of them, they, they're, they're grappling with the same
9:31
thing. And the thing that they're
9:33
grappling with kind of ties back to the thing that I like to
9:35
focus on, which is how can I be and remain myself as an
9:41
individual? How can I contribute in a way
9:44
that I feel like it's close to who I am?
9:47
And how can I create an environment?
9:48
Or let's just create, call that inclusive, collaborative working
9:51
environments. And for me, that's always been
9:54
like a bit of a, yeah, we can talk about inclusion, we can
9:56
talk about diversity, but how do we create that culture within
9:59
different teams and organizations has been kind of a
10:02
running theme for me, but deeper down underneath all that.
10:07
And that's maybe also the things that I share online, which is
10:10
I'm constantly grappling with certain questions.
10:12
And I like to, while I'm doing that myself, to see how to help
10:16
others grapple with the same questions or thoughts.
10:20
So a couple of questions on the back of that.
10:23
First question is do you do anything with your medical
10:26
background still? No, I don't.
10:29
Not anymore. So I, I was wondering because
10:32
what was wrong in this in the medical system that you saw that
10:36
you helped change and how is that has how has that improved?
10:41
I guess the question. Yeah.
10:42
So the one part of me feels like I didn't change anything.
10:47
That's maybe the more the yeah, the, the critical one, the one
10:52
that's more skeptical towards everything that I've been able
10:55
to work on. And at the same time, I think
10:58
the things that I've been able to contribute to, whether it was
11:01
the movement that we started in Compassion Healthcare, whether
11:03
it was the healthcare leadership summer schools or any of the
11:06
training or workshop that I gave.
11:08
I think it just helped those that were a part of it to
11:12
explore particular questions, explorer, unpack parts of
11:18
themselves and be able to come to realizations, which was why
11:23
did I ever start doing this job? Why did I decide to work within
11:29
healthcare if that's what it was?
11:30
And why do I still want to do it today?
11:32
And what is the driver for me? And what is it that I'd like to
11:36
see change? And can I be a part of that
11:38
change? Can I be the one that enables
11:40
it? There was a program that we that
11:42
I held while I was at better future called Game changes in
11:44
health. It was for residents in, in, in
11:47
healthcare. So those that are, you know, in
11:49
educating to become specialists. And one of the, one of the core
11:53
themes there was the same thing, which is, you know, there's,
11:56
there's a lot happening around you.
11:57
You're developing your own leadership, but what are you
11:58
going to actually change in your environment?
12:00
Are you going to change the way the department works?
12:02
Are you going to change the way a certain system is in place?
12:06
Are you going to, you know, what is it that you can actually say
12:08
by the end of the year? I've had a certain impact or
12:10
influence on that. And that's that I've been able
12:14
to do at least in particular shape or form that I've helped
12:18
or guided or supported or been in contact with those people
12:23
that have actually made the change in the 1st place.
12:25
And I guess there's always this, this part of me that felt like,
12:31
yeah, I, I wish that I had at least explored how it would have
12:35
been to work as a doctor myself. But for good reason, I did not
12:38
continue. I'm, I'm, I'm at peace with that
12:41
decision. I am now at least more now than
12:46
I was then. You can imagine the kind of, oh,
12:48
I was going to become a doctor and then I stopped.
12:49
That's very, that's not an easy decision to make.
12:52
I see even friends of mine now who have become specialists who
12:54
are stopping as well because they just don't feel it anymore
12:56
for, for their own particular reasons.
12:58
But yeah, I just kind of going back to your question, which is
13:03
one of the, the, the, the bigger drivers for me and going through
13:09
all the different and the people that I've been able to interact
13:12
with. It still boils down to one thing
13:15
that I think the way I've been able to have an influence is
13:17
that, yeah, helping them unpack parts of themselves that they
13:22
may not have been able to easily get to.
13:25
OK. And also, if I hear you
13:27
correctly, helping them create impact by changing things that
13:33
they can actually influence and identifying those things that
13:37
are, let's say, in their department in their way of
13:40
working that they can change to make healthcare or food or
13:47
banking a better place. Yeah, that.
13:50
So you, you you've kind of also kind of hit the nail on the head
13:53
there. There's one thing that I I
13:54
repeat on almost nauseatingly and you know enough, which is
14:01
your circle of influence and your circle of concern to really
14:04
focus on what are the things that you do have an influence
14:07
on. And if you are going to be
14:08
worried about all the things that you have no influence on,
14:11
you know, you're going to go to bed very tired and very
14:14
unfulfilled. But if you try to see, OK, what
14:17
do I have within my circle of concern?
14:18
What are possibilities that is such AI would say even a, an,
14:27
an, a motivating and an inspiring place to work from,
14:30
because then you can see these small changes that you're making
14:32
on a day-to-day basis. And that's one thing that I also
14:36
love to kind of help, you know, what I, I do, I try to do it
14:39
myself within my own life. And I also see how it helps
14:42
others with theirs. And like you said, if you can
14:44
find that and then you can see within a certain period that
14:47
you're actually making a particular change or you've
14:49
tried and it didn't work, but at least you learned from that,
14:52
fine. But that I think is where you
14:55
can. That's where growth takes place
14:57
and that's where change also takes place.
14:59
Yeah. Another question I had is so you
15:02
you talked about that you you are you were doing these
15:08
leadership trainings and and more in general helping people
15:12
sort of make impact in their own swear of influence while still
15:18
being, let's say, quote UN quote imperfect at it at this
15:22
yourself. This.
15:25
I was wondering, is that the sort of precondition for being
15:28
able to do the work that you actually need to be in that you
15:33
actually need to be imperfect yourself in order to take people
15:37
by the hands? Because that just just to give
15:41
some context, what I noticed for myself in the past is that the
15:48
more I was ahead of people in terms of knowledge, in terms of
15:52
understanding a certain topic, the less easy it became for me
15:58
to to, to sort of convince them to, to join, let's say on the
16:06
journey. I was wondering what your
16:09
thoughts on that are. Yeah, I think whether it was 20
16:14
or 15 years ago, 10 years ago, the fact that I am still a work
16:20
in progress and that I'm not there yet is the, the, the
16:24
awareness of the acknowledgement that I have towards myself is
16:27
quite important. And I think this is for a few
16:29
reasons. This is the this is the feedback
16:32
that I also got for from other people, which was the fact that
16:35
I can become relatable. Like, hey, I'm going through the
16:38
same thing. I can relate to this.
16:40
I'm struggling with, you know, being, you know, being committed
16:44
to certain goals that I want to achieve or I have struggles.
16:48
If we're going to talk about especially women in disrupting
16:51
tech or about being a, you know, being a feminist or, you know,
16:58
being conscious and aware of it. I'm still having moments that I
17:01
have my biases. It's still still there and it
17:03
happens. And I, yeah, I, I wouldn't say
17:05
everyday basis, but regularly enough because of my
17:07
programming. And if I can be honest enough
17:11
about that, if I can be truthful enough about that, and if I can
17:14
also in the moment that it happens to stop and become
17:17
aware, like, oh, wait a second, I've done it again.
17:19
I'm, I'm part of that old programming.
17:23
I think that's important for a few reasons, which is like the
17:26
relatability, but also because if I can show, hey, I'm not the
17:30
one that has all the answers and I'm definitely not a guru and
17:32
I'm definitely not enlightened. I'm figuring this part too.
17:37
And this is the way I try to figure it out too.
17:39
I think that helps others that are also struggling where they
17:42
say, OK, OK, so I'm not trying to battle myself against this
17:47
kind of this, this prime, you know, St. of an example.
17:52
No, this is just a human being also trying to figure it out
17:54
too. What I bring to the table, I
17:57
think is the methodologies about how or the, the, the path that
18:02
we need to take to get there and maybe certain tools or ways to
18:07
do that. But the fact that I can say that
18:11
I am there no, and I don't really believe that in many
18:13
topics that you can be. I mean, even if you're a top
18:15
athlete, when you when you're not, you know, either if you're
18:21
not preparing for a certain event or goal or something, you
18:25
might be fully in tune. But even then, you are
18:28
constantly trying to learn from your even tiniest of mistakes.
18:31
And if you say I'm perfect, I have not heard one athlete ever
18:34
say I'm perfect. Right now they're like, I'm as
18:37
good as I can be today, still got plenty to improve.
18:40
And I think that's the kind of same mindset, not that I want to
18:43
go into high performing or something, but that mindset of
18:45
constantly trying to figure out, Oh yeah, where are my blind
18:48
spots? Where are the things that I
18:49
still don't see what what is? What are things that I still
18:52
need to become more conscious and aware of?
18:53
Yeah. And it's also I, I guess that
18:55
comes back to relatability that you can actually you're not
18:59
looking at the same standing in front of a room, you're looking
19:02
at a person like you all of a sudden.
19:06
Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's what I hope.
19:08
And I think what I've heard back again is the feedback that I've
19:12
received, which I'm very grateful for, which is that
19:15
that's often what I bring. It becomes this, I'm here going
19:19
to tell you how to change your life.
19:21
And I'm like, no, no, we're going to go through a couple of
19:23
things together. We're going to do together.
19:24
I'm just like you. Let's like, you know, I've got
19:26
some, this is my experience that I'm bringing to the table.
19:28
I hope that you all have an, you know, can, can take something
19:32
from this. It doesn't matter something
19:33
small or something big, but you take something that you could
19:35
change, something within your own life, within your own team,
19:37
department, organization, whatever may be the case.
19:42
So I want to switch to the topic of ally ship.
19:49
Let's say the main cause of this, this meal.
19:54
What for you was is a is a motivating factor to be an ally?
20:01
I think my ally. Ship or the wish to be your ally
20:07
comes from multiple places. But I especially have to thank
20:12
the very powerful and amazing women that I've gotten to know
20:15
within my life who has shown me that this world is very skewed
20:21
about how it's been built and structured and how the, you
20:25
know, the latest example can be. It's very daunting.
20:28
But what happened to the 17 year old Lisa here in the
20:32
Netherlands, in Amsterdam, who, you know, on her way home very
20:35
late at night on a Saturday or something, she was killed.
20:39
And it just shows how women generally live a different life
20:45
than men do. Now, I'm a man of color.
20:47
I have my own different experiences in that.
20:50
But that's not what this is about.
20:52
This is making a distinction between men and women and what
20:55
the kind of lives women have to live.
20:57
And I think for quite a as long as, yeah, quite a while, I've
21:01
tried to listen to the things that I did not see the, the
21:06
rights that I had that they don't have or the, the, the
21:09
biases that they received that I did not receive.
21:12
And at moments when I also realized that I was doing it
21:15
myself and being corrected upon, it were always moments that have
21:19
stayed with me. It also just kind of reminds me
21:24
that back in high school, I'd be also making really shitty jokes
21:28
to women about stuff, I mean, really horrible stuff that I'd
21:31
say. And it was a little part of like
21:33
the kind of, you know, the, the, the banter that you had with
21:36
each other, you know, you know, things like women in kitchen and
21:39
stuff like that. That happened in high school.
21:42
And if I think about it now, I think, oh, how, how, how
21:46
unconscious and how, how I, I, I can't, I can't blame myself
21:51
because that's where I was at that moment.
21:53
But I also see that that's where a lot of it was shaped.
21:56
And I'm hoping the conversations that we're having nowadays and
21:59
that I have nowadays, that I can speak up more, that I can speak
22:02
against someone saying something inappropriate, disrespectful
22:07
towards, towards women in any way.
22:10
So yeah, it's, it's hard to say specific moments of allyship
22:13
where they started. But I think one of the big ones
22:15
that started is also about how I saw my mom's role within the,
22:19
within my, you know, the family in the, in the relationship with
22:22
my father, how I literally, and I wish that it was a different
22:27
role than she took. I know that she could do more
22:29
than she was able to. And it was, yeah, unfortunate to
22:35
see that she, she, she was not able to kind of unpack more of
22:39
her own, let's just say creativity, entrepreneurship,
22:44
whatever may be the case, although she had it in her.
22:47
And I think that was kind of one of the frustrations that I felt
22:50
like, I wish there was more I could do, but that that
22:52
situation and because of culture and whatnot, that wasn't very
22:54
possible. So, yeah, there's, there's,
22:56
there's more moments that happened.
22:58
I think that made me realize that.
22:59
How does how has that changed how you deal with women now,
23:05
that experience with your, especially your mom, that was
23:08
influential? Well, I mean, my mom and I mean,
23:13
it's also partners that I had that, that, that I had people
23:17
that I had a relationship with. Each of them taught me that,
23:22
especially my my partner of late who who've been together for
23:26
quite a while, known each other for about 20 years as well, each
23:29
time showing me like, Hey, mirror, like, do you see that
23:33
this behavior, what you're doing, you know, it's, it's it's
23:36
not coming from the right place or it needs to be checked.
23:40
They, they've been very impactful in me being like first
23:46
like almost like kind of becoming a little awkward about
23:48
it and then trying to justify my actions.
23:50
Yeah, but you don't understand. I don't mean it that way.
23:52
It wasn't my intention. OK, maybe it's not your
23:55
intention, but it still does not have, you know, it's still not
23:59
respectful. It's still not right.
24:00
It's still not whatever may be the case.
24:02
And the more I was given this kind of mirror feedback, the
24:07
more and if I it's also about putting my own ego to the side,
24:10
which is not always easy to be honest and then say, OK, I'm
24:16
being told something, something's being said to me
24:18
that about of, of my behavior. I want to see if I can check and
24:22
change it. So yeah, from, from the, from
24:24
this. But your question was about how
24:26
it shaped me as the person I am today.
24:29
Let me ask you differently, does it take time and age?
24:34
So getting older to change to be able to a set aside your ego and
24:41
B to then decide consciously to change your behavior.
24:47
Does it take age? I'd say, well, I think
24:50
experiences definitely help. I'm not sure if it takes age per
24:56
SE. I think this is something that I
24:58
could have realized when I'm in my, in my, in my teens or my
25:02
early 20s, but the environment that I was around weren't that
25:06
consciously aware of this either.
25:07
And I think we are coming to an environment where more people
25:10
are becoming more conscious. I, I don't like the word woke,
25:13
but the original term for that was that you kind of a wake up a
25:18
little bit from the, the system that we're in.
25:21
And I don't know why that became a negative connotation.
25:23
That's still beyond me. But OK, that's beside the point.
25:26
I, I do see that the upcoming youth are much more aware of
25:32
what's happening. They're much more conscious of
25:34
their, you know, the, the, the, the gender gap, if there is one.
25:39
And I do see, I hope it has a more positive impact in the
25:43
future. Although I do see some some
25:45
governments now kind of trying to turn that backwards and
25:49
trying to take that away. And also young boys who are now,
25:57
or young boys, young men, let me put it that way, who are now
26:01
again resorting to male dominance.
26:04
Yeah, I mean as. As a sort of way to to justify
26:08
their own. Yeah, the toxic masculinity is
26:12
definitely kind of something in marching up.
26:15
You know, on the end of the day, there's this.
26:17
I've been thinking about this a lot, especially because of what
26:19
happened with with Lisa. There is this, I remember I was
26:24
working on a program for healthcare workers or this one
26:27
of the largest NGOs in the African continent called Amrath.
26:30
Amrath Health Africa used to be the Amrath flying doctors, huge
26:33
NGO tries to help people, all different regions on the African
26:36
continent. And we had this session with
26:38
them where we were helping them with their five year strategy.
26:41
And there was this woman that came and she was, she worked for
26:46
The Who and then she said something which was so like, I,
26:50
I can't forget it, 'cause she worked, for example, men and she
26:53
worked with people in Congo and Congo has these terrible rates
26:56
of rapes that happens there, you know, with women in different
27:00
because of the, you know, the, the clashes between different
27:05
fractions indeed, sitting for the right word.
27:08
And she said, well, we work with the women, of course, but we
27:11
actually are trying to heal the men because the men, what
27:14
they've gone through is this, and she called it this
27:17
inheritance of a social dominance or something that
27:20
you've inherited this feeling that you are, that you are less
27:25
than the people around you. And that comes from colonialism,
27:28
that comes from other factors. So those men that feel less than
27:33
that they are, they will then show behavior to try to create
27:37
dominance. And that's kind of, let's just
27:39
say the toxic environment that comes up.
27:41
Any man who feels good about themselves or feels OK about
27:44
themselves. And I think that's the question
27:45
I try to ask myself if I feel like I'm getting a counter, you
27:48
know, like this kind of not toxic per SE, but a different
27:51
kind of behavior. Is it coming from a place 'cause
27:54
I don't feel good with of myself.
27:56
And that's the deeper questions to figure out.
27:59
And this one woman who comes from, came from The Who she, she
28:02
said this so beautifully because she said as well as she's like,
28:05
what I try to do is heal the men, that the men feel better
28:07
about themselves. Because when they feel better,
28:09
they will not hurt women anymore because they've come to peace
28:12
with a part of themselves that they didn't come to peace with,
28:15
with this kind of, again, this post colonialism, you know,
28:19
trauma that they still live with.
28:21
How does that affect man here in the West?
28:24
Do they have sort of a similar, maybe not from colonialism, but
28:31
sort of similar trauma? I think all men do often walk
28:35
around with a particular trauma that we live in a time where I'm
28:39
very grateful that people are organizing.
28:41
And there's friends of mine that do the same thing.
28:43
They're organizing men's circles and gatherings where you come
28:46
and you talk and you're vulnerable about what you're
28:48
going to do. And people talk about addictions
28:51
to gambling to pour into whatever may be the case.
28:55
And that that's, I think something that happens a lot
28:58
with especially within the, let's just say Western
29:00
societies. And I know because I, I, I
29:02
would, I even hosted men's circles myself.
29:05
And if I see the conversations that come up where people really
29:08
try to, we also say they're own their own shit and say, yeah, I
29:13
either they've cheated on their whim on their, on their
29:16
partners, or they're struggling with, you know, feeling like
29:20
men. Whatever may be the case, I,
29:24
I've noticed how much the men are caring without being able to
29:29
talk about it. And I've also been in those
29:31
environments where you know, these men will, you know, men
29:34
will not talk about these kind of topics, be a little bit like
29:36
kind of macho ish and and drinking, having a drink.
29:41
But deeper down when you have those deeper conversations,
29:43
they're kind of sitting with the same thing.
29:45
It kind of reminds me of this story that there was this, I was
29:48
a part of this friends group and there's one friend between them.
29:51
Very tall guy, I would say quite a looker women very like appeal
29:56
attractive, tall, you know, tattoos.
29:58
And we went to the same gym together and we were at a party
30:03
once and while we were both at a party and we were let's just say
30:06
we were both at a very vulnerable state, just kind of
30:08
talking and sharing with each other.
30:10
We both share to each other how we both feel very insecure as as
30:13
men and we don't, you know, and of course at that point is about
30:16
men and women, about approaching women.
30:18
And I was like you, How are you insecure?
30:21
And here's the interesting thing that we're all kind of dealing
30:24
with these particular thoughts and emotions, but we we don't
30:28
realize that everybody is everybody's dealing with some
30:31
kind of insecurity or something. And I think that's the part
30:34
where if we can allow men to feel this and they, they, this
30:39
is, you know, this is the part where the healing can start.
30:42
The healing can start by saying, hey, you know, you don't need to
30:45
compensate by being dominant, by being aggressive, by being to to
30:51
to show that you're a man. That's not the way it needs to
30:54
be done anymore. It can be done in a different
30:56
way. That's yeah, that that I see as
31:01
AI mean linking it to the Western society.
31:03
I see. That's where often there's
31:06
there's proof of trauma that needs to be healed.
31:08
Yeah, that's beautiful. How do you invite people who are
31:15
or men in your workshops, in your in your sessions to do
31:19
that, to show their vulnerability because.
31:22
Yeah. So I mean the the sessions that
31:25
I hold sometimes their leadership programs, some of
31:27
them their team, team offsides and their or their specific
31:29
workshops on a few topics. But one of the ways I do that is
31:33
by starting myself saying, you know, this is sometimes things
31:39
that I camp with. So if we talk about specifically
31:42
bias towards women, there's I was in South Africa, this is
31:46
like 2 years ago and I went to a barbershop and there was, there
31:51
was 3 barbers there to the, the left and the right there was men
31:54
and there was a woman in the middle.
31:56
The both the men were occupied. There was somebody in their
31:59
chair. There was nobody in the woman's
32:01
chair. And when I walked in, the first
32:04
thing I did was I looked left and I looked right and like, oh,
32:06
I'm going to have to wait with my mind thinking that's a woman
32:10
there. I'm not going to go to her
32:11
chair. And she looks at me and she
32:12
goes, do you want your haircut? I said.
32:14
And then I then I noticed in that those few seconds while
32:17
it's put me down like, oh, shit, she's a Barber.
32:19
She saw that I'm looking left and right.
32:22
And then I said, yes, I need my haircut.
32:23
And then she goes, did you want to wait for one of them?
32:27
And so we're in this kind of pause moment where she's
32:30
realizing that I don't want to ask her directly.
32:32
And I then I went, you cut hair as well, right?
32:37
She goes, yeah, yeah, of course you can come sit in my chair.
32:39
I'm like, yeah, yeah. Then I'm kind of like a little
32:42
bit fumbling with my words. At that moment, I'm sitting in
32:45
the chair feeling like absolute shit about myself because I
32:48
thought, yeah, I have clearly, like I literally have had, you
32:52
know, what can I say? She felt it.
32:53
I felt it. I had completely passed her
32:55
over. I thought, Nah, I'm not going to
32:56
cut my hair with you. So we're talking, we're having a
32:58
really nice conversation. And at a certain point, I said,
33:01
hey, listen, I'm, I'm, you know, I didn't mean to pass you over.
33:04
I think I'm just so used to men cutting my hair.
33:06
I didn't expect that you were going to cut my hair.
33:08
And she goes, it's OK. I get it all the time.
33:10
This is what happens when men walk in here.
33:12
They don't think I'm going to cut their hair.
33:14
And and then I thought, oh, what, what a what a unfortunate
33:17
burden she has to constantly carry that that she's being
33:19
passed over just because she's a woman cutting hair.
33:23
And that again, that example I'm using is because I'm stepping in
33:27
from my example. That's me.
33:29
That happened to me. It's only two years ago.
33:30
It's not like it happened 20 years ago and it happened of
33:33
late. I still have that programming
33:35
and if I can even use that example saying, hey, this is
33:38
where I've had a bias. What about you?
33:41
Where's yours? When, when did yours happen?
33:44
That kind of gets people to go. You, you can't say I'm not
33:48
biased. I'm a super feminist.
33:51
Think about it all the time. Never happened.
33:53
I'll say it happens to me today. As much as I'm busy with this
33:56
topic, there's no way, no way that you have no examples.
34:01
And that's when you can pause and you have to go, OK, wait.
34:03
Let me, let me, as they say in Dutch so beautifully, you know,
34:06
haunted anchor, bosom stake. So, you know, you put my own
34:08
hand in my own heart and say, all right, there have been
34:11
moments that I've excluded women, that I've had my bias
34:14
about them or that I have treated them unfairly or not
34:17
respectfully or whatever may be the case.
34:20
Can you admit to that? And then the office answer will
34:23
be yes. Everyone has an example.
34:26
Yeah, yeah. And then not to justify why you
34:31
did it, just that it happened. Something that I can learn from
34:36
and I want to I want to do it differently next time and then.
34:41
Is is that something that men tend to do when running into
34:47
these situations, that they start rationalizing it
34:49
immediate, like immediately? Oh yeah, that's in all forms.
34:53
I even noticed that in different forms of biases or racism often.
34:57
Yeah, Yeah. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't
34:59
mean it that way or I it's just a joke or I, you know, OK, OK.
35:03
You know, like it's very like you want to kind of kind of was
35:09
it, but you want to, you want to cloud it over with yeah, but it
35:13
wasn't really that serious. Yeah, it was just a joke indeed.
35:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're the, you're the
35:19
party pooper at that moment that you know that, that, that if
35:25
you're going to come in with a comment and say, well, I'd like
35:28
us to pause at this right now. That's, that's when it becomes,
35:34
yeah, that's that's when you become, they become
35:36
uncomfortable as well. Yeah.
35:38
How do you deal with that? Because that's sort of, I can
35:41
imagine that's sort of a, that's a quite literally showstopper.
35:46
Yeah, good point. For me, if I bring that up, I
35:52
need to be OK with them or me feeling uncomfortable bringing
35:58
it up. And I am not always good at
36:01
doing that. Because I think, oh, I'm going
36:02
to get into maybe a conflict with someone or somebody going
36:05
to feel like I'm blowing something up bigger than it
36:09
should be. That they will then actually
36:14
ironically feel unsafe to talk to me about it because they're
36:17
like, oh, here's somebody who's got his, yeah, you know, he's
36:21
got his tentacles out for sensitivity.
36:25
And now I can't say anything. I can't, I can't be completely
36:28
like low threshold and share whatever I want to.
36:30
I need to be careful and work to my words.
36:32
All those things are coming to my mind while I'm sharing this.
36:35
And I remember there was this call that I had.
36:38
I was working with a team and there was a guy, I was working
36:41
with a team. We were working with a certain
36:45
service provider. They were designing something
36:47
for us. And I was not the lead in the
36:49
team. There was two other people that
36:50
lead, two women that were the lead.
36:52
And I was just like literary support in that team.
36:55
And the guy from the service provider was only speaking to me
36:59
like I was the one that was in lead.
37:02
And then at a certain point, I said something about it.
37:03
I said, hey, can I say something?
37:05
You're constantly addressing me, but you know that I'm not the
37:08
lead here. You know, these other two women
37:09
are. And it's making me feel very
37:12
uncomfortable, to be honest with you, because I feel like you're
37:15
surpassing them and you're just talking to me.
37:16
And it, it feels like it's because I'm a guy.
37:19
But I, I'm, I'm getting a bit bit confused.
37:22
He went in total like, no, that's not what I meant at all.
37:24
I know I'm not like that. And you should know what kind of
37:27
a feminist I am. And I'm like, no, I, I get all
37:30
that. I get all that.
37:32
But you, it still happened. It's still happening, you know,
37:35
while we're talking about this. And I'm just trying to
37:37
addressing it because, yeah, this doesn't, doesn't feel like
37:41
the right kind of environment we're creating here.
37:44
And then, well, he didn't completely admit to it, but I'm
37:47
happy that I spoke up about it because I was realizing it.
37:50
I even, what's that one of the team members like, hey, am I the
37:52
only one that's noticing this? Or is this she's like, no, it's
37:55
true. You're being addressed more than
37:56
we are when we're actually the lead, right.
37:58
And that was very clear. That's so how I how I do it is
38:02
by trying to get over the discomfort myself and being OK
38:06
if somebody doesn't like what I'm saying.
38:08
I'm not very good at it, still not, but I'm trying to do it
38:11
more often. Yeah, I think it's very powerful
38:15
though, to do it, to step over your own, to translate a Dutch
38:20
saying into English, to step over your own shadow and then
38:25
and then say, well, hey, listen, I noticed this.
38:28
I think also that by saying I notice this behaviour, it's sort
38:34
of you, you put it towards yourself like I noticed this and
38:41
and that way it sort of builds in a sort of escape route or
38:46
softening, let's say that's at least that's how I would
38:51
perceive it and that's. Also, there's a, there's a,
38:54
there's a methodology that often that I either use or that I talk
38:58
about when it comes to having courageous conversations with
39:00
people. And that is non violent
39:02
communication and non body communications uses this very
39:05
clear methodology about, you know, instead of kind of going
39:11
straight to the reactive that you first talk about, you know,
39:13
what did, what did I observe? What, how did it make me feel?
39:18
What is the need that I have and what request would I have for
39:20
the person that I'm talking to? And they've used this.
39:23
This, I think, even comes from the time of apartheid South
39:26
Africa, and then is later translated to even conversations
39:29
that need to take place in places like the Middle East
39:31
where there's large amount of conflicts where you can have a
39:34
conversation with someone without it having to be so
39:36
conflicting. You can just also talk about it
39:38
from your own perspective. So I try to say, hey, listen,
39:39
this is what I'm noticing. My wish would be to you to say,
39:44
hey, maybe that we need to just change the way we're having this
39:47
conversation. And, and probably admit to
39:50
themselves that they are actually indeed exhibiting this
39:57
behaviour. Yeah.
39:58
So although I can imagine that that sort of in in a session is
40:03
sort of difficult because people immediately get offended and get
40:07
into reactive mode. Yeah, so if I can be relatable
40:12
enough and somebody feels like there's a space enough to step
40:14
into that, then I've seen that definitely happen too.
40:17
Like they say, OK, you know, I'll also admit I definitely
40:20
have done this too, or I make that I kind of have it bias or
40:24
I've, you know, shown this behavior which isn't very
40:26
productive. And then the other side, I've
40:29
also noticed some people that need more time for that.
40:31
And in the moment they'll just be more on resistance and and
40:33
and and opposing it and saying justifying themselves.
40:37
No, it's not how. It's not how I see it.
40:39
OK. And instead of kind of going
40:41
hardball into it, like, no, you need to see that you're doing it
40:44
wrong, Say all right, that's, that's OK, as long as you're
40:47
open to learn about it. We'll you know, then maybe the
40:50
penny drops in a week or a month or a year from now and you're
40:53
like, oh, maybe maybe there is something about my behavior I
40:57
can do differently. And I've heard that as well.
40:59
I've heard that come back. It's looped back with people
41:01
that I've worked with that they said, hey, if I look back now, I
41:03
do see that my behavior wasn't very well.
41:06
And that happened. There's an event that we held in
41:09
2011. There was this big thing that
41:10
happened at that moment where there's a conflict within the
41:12
trainers. There's a guy that I'd worked
41:14
with in and I think it was literally 10 years after that
41:17
event. He said, hey, you know, what
41:18
happened was. And his behavior I didn't really
41:20
find was very applaudable at that moment.
41:23
And he said, yeah, I've reflected on that for a very
41:25
long time. And I realized that I should
41:26
have done, you know, I should have acted differently.
41:28
I'm like, whoa, 10 years later and you still it's, it's so you
41:32
know, everyone has their own process when, when it's sinks in
41:36
or when they become aware of it. It's also the way to deal to
41:40
deal with skeptics, to just let them go through their own
41:46
process. Yeah, my first answer would be
41:50
yes. You can't change someone.
41:53
And anybody who's in a relationship can definitely, you
41:55
know, can attest to that, which is no matter how much you want
41:58
to change your partner, you can never change them.
42:00
You can only change the way you respond towards, you know, the
42:04
way they act to behave. You can never change them.
42:06
Like how much as much as we want to just kind of tinker on a few
42:09
buttons of there say, I wish they would do this a little less
42:11
and this a bit more. Not gonna happen.
42:13
So the same thing with skeptics. You can't change a skeptic's
42:16
behavior. But what you can do is I think
42:19
what I think was noticed what's what's helped me the the most is
42:24
not being in resistance towards them, not trying to justify
42:28
myself, but just be like, OK, if that's how you feel, that's what
42:33
that's how you said it. That's your perspective.
42:35
I respect that too. And by respecting and seeing
42:38
their perspective. But more So what helps me, we're
42:41
either skeptics or those that are, let's call it in resistance
42:45
is if I can come to a point to understand them, not agree with
42:49
them, just understand them. And if I can look them in their
42:52
eyes saying, Hey, I don't agree with you, but I understand where
42:55
you're coming from. I understand there's a level of
42:58
either frustration or anger that you may feel about this point.
43:01
And I'm sorry to hear that. So the other day I was picking
43:03
up flowers, a flower for the teacher of my my daughter.
43:08
And then she said to me, which was I was a little bit surprised
43:10
about that. She says, oh, wow, you're Dutch
43:12
so good. I'm like, yeah, coincidentally
43:14
it's my second language, but it's like, you know, it's got no
43:17
accent. And she goes, oh, if I had you
43:19
on the phone, I wouldn't have recognized you.
43:20
I was like, oh, OK, thanks. I guess I was a little bit like,
43:24
I'm not sure what to do with that comment.
43:25
And then she says, can I say something to him?
43:27
Like, yeah, sure. She's like, I have no problem
43:30
with people from, you know, the foreigners.
43:32
But those asylum seekers, I hate either every single one of them.
43:36
And I was just like, OK, how, how do I have this conversation?
43:41
I need to go, 'cause my, my daughter needs to go to school.
43:43
I've literally got a few minutes.
43:44
I'm just buying a flower. And this woman kind of starts to
43:47
pile down on me about, yeah, the asylum seekers and they're, you
43:50
know, and they're, they're they're all, they're all
43:52
criminals. And and I I so I I said to her
43:56
like, listen, this is too long of a conversation for me to have
43:59
with you right now. You look like a very kind and
44:01
wonderful lady. And she really was kind because
44:03
we only wanted one flower. She literally gave it for free.
44:06
She says, don't worry about it. It's, you know, it's a euro.
44:08
And I said, I don't have change. She goes, yeah, don't pin it
44:09
because pin is going to cost too much money for the transfer
44:11
cost. I'm like, OK, I said I'll come
44:14
back another time, but I want to have this kind of longer
44:17
conversation with you. But I can tell you I have a
44:18
different perspective. And I hear your perspective.
44:21
I see it, and I'm sorry that you feel this way.
44:23
She goes, yeah. And I'm reading the news.
44:24
I'm like, I get it. But maybe in a future moment
44:26
that I can also share you my perspective because I've lived
44:28
it from a different perspective. She goes like, yeah, because
44:29
have you experienced racism? I said a lot, but maybe we can
44:33
have that another time. And then we left it there, which
44:36
was my way of saying, I'm not going to be like, I can't
44:39
believe you, you, you, you have that perspective.
44:41
That's her perspective. So leaving her there in that
44:44
respect for her, but also saying I do think about it differently,
44:48
but maybe when there's a space we can talk about that.
44:51
I think that it's like really powerful and also also sort of
44:56
invitation, I guess for her to reflect.
44:59
At least I hope. I I hope so too.
45:03
I yeah, that's a conversation that's at least take place, but.
45:07
I'd love to hear what what happens next because it's sort
45:10
of a cliffhanger. I, I, I am, I am planning to go
45:13
by because I still need to give her that euro.
45:15
But yeah, I, I, I want to be able to have that conversation
45:21
respectfully so she doesn't feel like I'm attacking her.
45:23
But I also want to be able to not change her perspective, but
45:26
just show her a new one. And maybe from there, she might
45:29
look at it differently. Yeah, I think that's a, that's a
45:33
powerful way to do it, to show her the new, the other
45:36
perspective, because she did invite you to share that in a
45:40
way. So she asked me, that's the
45:42
thing. So I think she, what I noticed
45:44
in her at that moment was she was a little confused, 'cause
45:49
she thought you look like a very kind gentleman.
45:52
At least that's, that's the idea that I got.
45:55
I have this perspective about asylum seekers.
45:59
You know, I'm struggling with this topic.
46:01
That's what I felt for her. And then by sharing it with me
46:04
and asking me how I do, I get discriminated.
46:06
I thought, yes, a lot. And that's I've, I've come to
46:09
terms with it and I deal with it.
46:11
It's not nice, but if I can help create a new perspective, even
46:15
about asylum seekers, because I know plenty of people that have
46:18
been asylum seekers that have migrated that have, you know,
46:21
their stories are not that they're these people just
46:24
looking for what is it? What's a good English
46:29
translation to Hulux Ukers? They, they're literally fleeing
46:33
from a very horrible situation. And you know, or even of late
46:38
that they're trying to pass a law that, you know, kids from
46:41
Gaza cannot be treated in the Netherlands or something like
46:44
that, or asylum. See, children or people cannot
46:46
be treated. It's just that doctors cannot
46:48
treat them or else they'll, they'll be legal implications
46:53
towards them. Like those are things where I
46:55
start to become very confused, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are
46:57
we doing here? You know, and I'd like to share
47:00
that perspective as well because I do see it differently.
47:03
Yeah. And I think it's important
47:05
because on, on that particular legislation, I think it's, I
47:11
don't understand where they're coming from as a, as a really
47:15
local Dutch, Dutch person, I don't understand how humanity
47:22
has come to this moment that we're actually making the
47:27
distinction between first and second class citizens.
47:32
And it's, it's a, it's a conversation that I think needs
47:35
to be had with, with a lot of people.
47:38
Because I, to be honest, I don't think like the, the, the woman
47:43
from the flower shop that you were talking about.
47:45
I don't do not believe that like 99%.
47:51
There's also always 1% or maybe 2% who are racist for whatever
47:59
reason. I don't think these people feel
48:02
good about themselves. That's that's another topic.
48:06
But I think that there's like 9798, maybe even 99% of the
48:11
population who is sort of tricked into thinking that this
48:18
is a good way to go because there's another problem that
48:22
they have that needs to be solved, which in in Holland, the
48:25
obvious one would be housing. So because we are, we all know
48:31
that there's a shortage of housing.
48:34
Every person that comes on top of that list.
48:39
If, if it's below us, then it's sort of a threat.
48:42
Because that's one of the few parts where where the whole
48:47
thing about 0 sum game does apply.
48:50
So any housing that I don't get or that I give away does or at
48:55
you comes at my expense. Yeah, there there's, I do
48:59
understand where it comes from or at least I have gained more
49:01
understanding of that and I'd like to understand a little bit
49:03
more. I again, I will not agree with
49:05
it and nor do I think it is the the, the right answer, but it's,
49:10
it's comes from frustration. It comes from a scarcity that's
49:14
been created and that scarcity is not per SE been created by
49:17
other people. It's been created by the systems
49:19
that we're living in, whether it's the capitalistic system or
49:22
people that can't buy houses anymore.
49:24
It, it, we're all kind of, and, and that's a bigger topic.
49:26
Maybe there can. I'm not sure if it's supposed to
49:27
be for this, for what we're talking about right now, but it,
49:30
it does feel like, and everyone's also stuck in their
49:33
own echo chambers. If I check my social media and
49:35
check her social media, I am 1000% sure we're both reading
49:38
very, very different news feeds. And that, that that in itself
49:43
already shows how it's hard to then convince someone who's now
49:48
just, you know, consume hours and days and months of
49:53
information and videos and articles and posts about things
49:58
that are the complete opposite to what I've been probably
50:00
reading. And then say that now what you
50:02
read with one comment to, to change her mind is going to be
50:05
impossible. But it will be saying, hey, this
50:07
is my story. This is how I've experienced it.
50:09
This is the people that I've spoken to.
50:11
Maybe you can take that into that big jumble of, you know,
50:15
consume data that you have and see if that can change the way
50:19
you look at it. That sounds like a beautiful
50:22
place to transition to a question I still had.
50:27
I want to shift to making it really practical what people can
50:31
do in terms of maybe even a strong sort of starter kit.
50:37
How can we become more allies? That's.
50:42
Well, speaking from a from male perspective, men need to ask
50:47
more about what experience women are going through without
50:51
assuming it in advance. I think that is the the first
50:55
and foremost thing to do. There's a Co working space that
50:59
I work from on the overtone and there was a woman that was
51:02
working behind the counter and I saw that she was just in
51:05
discomfort and I said hey, are you OK?
51:07
She goes, yeah, I'm fine. And she was like kind of almost
51:10
groaning said, oh, you don't, you don't look very fine.
51:13
You look pretty. She's like.
51:15
And then at a certain point, I, I, I just, I tried to keep an
51:18
open mind for her. So I was like, hey, Are you sure
51:21
you're OK? You look like, you know, she's
51:23
like, yeah, sorry, I'm having my period.
51:25
And she she whispers, I'm like, oh, oh, that must be rough that
51:29
you're going. I do not know how that
51:31
experience feels like. I only women can go through that
51:33
experience that some have very intense periods, others less
51:37
intense ones. We, I don't know, but I can only
51:40
see and observe what other people have gone through.
51:42
Some people have to take painkillers every time, every
51:45
month. And then I just asked like, Hey,
51:47
but why don't you just tell one of your colleagues that it's a
51:49
bit too much for you and, you know, take half a day off or
51:52
something. She goes, no, it's fine, it's
51:54
fine, it's fine. And she's kind of pushing it
51:55
over. And I'm like, so she told me she
51:58
didn't even tell her female colleague, who by the way, could
52:01
relate, but she goes because there's a hidden rule that you
52:04
just kind of have to push through.
52:05
Then eventually I said, hey, maybe you should become make
52:08
this a topic generally within the staff here, which is, hey,
52:12
when one of the women are going through their having their
52:15
period, they're going through their menstrual cycle, Maybe
52:20
they should just say there's one or two days in that in that
52:22
month where either it's just not handy for me to work or I can
52:26
find something else to do or I don't know.
52:27
But an alternative. And I think the way we need to
52:30
be allies is creating the space for that to happen.
52:33
Now she then talked to the, you know, the person in charge and
52:36
then they had an open conversation about it.
52:37
And of course, it's not easy to do always logistically, but
52:40
that's where allyship, I think starts with a can I observe
52:44
something? Can I see something happening?
52:46
Can I try to create the space for it to change?
52:49
And this is AI think a very simple but yet one that example
52:53
that ripples through all different places and sectors and
52:57
jobs and whatnot, which is women going through their menstrual
53:00
cycle, not being able to be open about and having to grip through
53:03
every month For those that are still going through at least or
53:07
those going through menopause or those going through, you know,
53:09
it doesn't matter that the phase, but we as men have no
53:13
understanding of how that could be.
53:15
I still don't, but all I can do is have compassion with the fact
53:17
that it's definitely not an experience that can make you go
53:20
full, that you can be fully present or 100% in those days,
53:24
yeah. True.
53:25
Especially, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have the experience
53:29
myself here, but yeah. Is it also a way that to, to
53:36
have the discussions also on the work floor on how what it is
53:39
like to go, let's say through through these menstrual cycles
53:44
that we like. I was at at A at a female health
53:48
event just before the summer and there they had this really great
53:56
graph. Well, it was, yeah, it was
53:59
enlightening, let me put it that way, of the male hormone cycle,
54:04
which is more or less up and down and up and down, but it's
54:07
the same with bandwidth every 24 hours, 365 days a year.
54:16
And then there was a female cycle, which was like not only
54:21
not just testosterone or estrogen in the case of women,
54:26
but like multiple different hormones that were sort of
54:31
playing around as a sort of wave throughout.
54:36
So there's a 24 hour cycle, there's a 28 day cycle and
54:40
there's a even longer cycle. And that difference they, they
54:46
talk about men coming from Mars and women from Venus or in terms
54:50
of hormones. Looking at that graph, I was
54:54
like, OK, I think I understand where this is coming from.
54:58
But having, having, having that conversation at work, I think is
55:03
really important. And that's not to say that man
55:07
can not be in pain or cannot have a bad day, which they will,
55:12
but. I would be the on the camp to
55:16
say I'm, I think there's this kind of feeling like when let's
55:21
when, when there's a, there's a marginalized group, whether
55:25
that's women, whether it's people of color, whether it's
55:27
people with diverse background doesn't matter.
55:28
And they say, well, let's create a bit more equity for them right
55:30
now. Let's give them the more levels
55:32
chance. I'm more of the camp to
55:33
overcompensate. And I'll tell you why.
55:35
I think when it comes to women and this links to allyship, I
55:38
think it's very OK to overcompensate because too long
55:41
it's been undercompensated. So and some extra over
55:44
conversation here or there could go a long way.
55:46
So when it comes to this, when you're talking about, you know,
55:48
the female hormones about what they're going to, my take would
55:51
be why not me stepping in to really understand as deeply as
55:56
possible what the experiences are, what they're going through.
55:58
So this woman that was working behind the bar and she was going
56:00
in excruciating pain, me trying to understand creating a space
56:03
for her to share, to explore us talking to her boss about it and
56:08
then, you know, creating this environment where that was
56:10
possible. I would, I would push for that
56:13
even more so that then more than just like, OK, I've understood
56:18
your situation. Good luck dealing with it.
56:21
I've shown that. I've, you know, I've shown, I've
56:23
shown you enough. And now I'm going to continue
56:25
with my day. Yeah, but why don't I just push
56:27
a little bit further and I mean, push a little further to see
56:30
ways that I can help that could change the situation for the
56:34
better and maybe to be more of a voice for this particular
56:37
person. That's I think our way of being
56:40
able to, yeah, really step in, be better allies.
56:46
And I think it's really in the micro moments next to being on
56:49
the forefront and, you know, lobbying and policies and
56:52
whatnot, which I really hope changed too.
56:54
But this is more on the level of, hey, what can we do on a
56:58
day-to-day to to listen to hear more of what's going on and to
57:02
be the change in that too. I think I wrote a post or an
57:05
article a while ago which was like, it was like a kind of an
57:09
exclamation where men put your put the put the fucking toilet
57:13
seat down. And it was and the reason why
57:16
such a micro thing like I go to the toilet, I put the seat at
57:18
the toilet seat up. I, I take a piss and then I'm
57:21
like, screw with other person comes up afterwards.
57:24
And you know what, you make it worse.
57:25
I'll put the toilet, leave the toilet seat down and then I'll
57:28
take a piss. And if there's piss all over
57:29
there, you know, see, so I use this very stupid small example,
57:33
but that is my inconsideration of that moment thinking a woman
57:36
has to come and sit here after because she cannot stand up and
57:39
pee like a man. There's many advantages of
57:42
sitting down for men, by the way, as well.
57:44
If you ever want to sit down and pee because you know, you don't
57:46
splash pee all of yourself. But that's a whole different
57:48
topic. But that's where I feel like
57:51
what if we could just be more considerate and consideration
57:54
from to consideration to understanding, from
57:56
understanding to compassion for what someone's going through,
58:00
from compassion to possible action that we could do to
58:02
actually have a positive influence on that environment.
58:05
That sounds like a really great place to move to.
58:09
My last question some my goal is to make the post cost obsolete
58:16
by the end of 2032 and by that I mean I want to close the funding
58:21
gap between female founders and and male founders by the end of
58:25
2032. How can men contribute to that?
58:31
How can other men contribute to that, other than being more
58:35
compassionate towards women and more interested in what drives
58:41
them? So you would want when it comes
58:45
to because you talk about funding, right?
58:47
Could you explain that one more time?
58:50
So what I want to achieve is that funding gap currently,
58:56
yeah, currently still I think only 2% of tech funding goes to
59:01
women, which women only teams, I should say.
59:05
So mixed teams, it's a bit higher, but then still there's a
59:07
penalty on having women on a founding team.
59:11
Yeah, this is a shocking statistic that I heard as well,
59:14
and hearing it again just kind of feel like a slap in the face,
59:17
but yeah. So how can we apply allyship and
59:21
the learnings you've had you've shown us to make to improve that
59:26
situation, to get more funding to female founders?
59:31
So the answer I think isn't for only females to be the funders
59:38
because that's almost too easy saying oh you they need to, they
59:40
need to fund themselves. The the answer is somewhere near
59:46
I think well, on one side it's about knowing the statistic in
59:49
the 1st place that realizing that and kind of thinking it's
59:52
not just about the the best person for the job, it's just a
59:55
strong bias within the system that's allowing this to continue
59:58
to happen to perpetuate. I think that it reminds me of
1:00:03
this quote that I read from Daniel Judae, which was
1:00:08
diversity is going to the party and inclusion is being a part of
1:00:12
the planning party committee. Party planning committee, Sorry
1:00:16
and. When it comes to funding of, you
1:00:20
know, organizations, start-ups or whatever may be the case,
1:00:24
just funding generally what's important is to have people that
1:00:28
are deciding that understand how it works.
1:00:31
Now that kind of counts as what I said initially, but what I
1:00:33
mean by that is if you have a group or funding, you know,
1:00:39
funders make sure that there's people involved.
1:00:43
And in this perspective is if it's women that can help
1:00:46
understand why they need to keep their scope and their vision
1:00:52
towards the women initiative start-ups.
1:00:56
You know, those that need funding versus only the one that
1:00:59
are, let's say, middle-aged white men who might have a very
1:01:02
good story and might have a compelling way to bring it.
1:01:05
But just showing that that's not always where you to keep your
1:01:08
eye on and you need people involved to be able to keep that
1:01:12
perspective open 'cause otherwise you won't say it the
1:01:15
same way. When I'm on a team, often I'm
1:01:16
asked, what's my perspective? And I'll say, well, I think
1:01:19
you're missing a certain demographic 'cause I see that
1:01:21
and they won't see that because that's in their blind spot.
1:01:24
And I think that's what it is to try to remove that blind spot.
1:01:26
You need to get other people involved as a part of that.
1:01:29
The, the, the, the committee that's deciding when they're
1:01:34
part of it. By the way, don't be, don't be
1:01:35
mistaken that they still may have a bias.
1:01:37
I still have, I'm, I've done the Harvard, you know, the, the,
1:01:40
the, the Harvard bias test that they have, the implicit bias
1:01:44
test that they have, which is on different, you know, different
1:01:48
topics. Anytime on gender or on, on
1:01:53
colour, I've come out both to be racist and sexist.
1:01:58
And as much as I'm busy with the topic, that's what happens.
1:02:00
So if I'm in a committee as well, I will still make
1:02:02
decisions that are often have a have a bias.
1:02:06
So I need to be even more aware, while I know those are my
1:02:09
counterparts that maybe middle-aged men or, you know,
1:02:11
women, you know, white will have an even stronger bias.
1:02:14
So I need to constantly keep myself aware just to make sure
1:02:18
that the I can also bring in that voice.
1:02:22
So I say that more as a way of it's it's about having the
1:02:25
people part of it that they share their voice, but also
1:02:29
constantly trying to educate ourselves.
1:02:32
Everybody educate themselves about the, the disparities, the,
1:02:36
the, the biases that that are existing, the lack of funding
1:02:40
that women in tech are getting. And the more you're aware of it,
1:02:44
the more you'll keep your eyes open for the women that those
1:02:47
that do need funding. Yeah, it's about seeing and it
1:02:51
and then not being able to Unsee it anymore.
1:02:54
Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a great place to
1:02:58
close. Thanks.
1:03:00
Really enjoyed this Salman. Thanks for a wonderful
1:03:04
conversation. You're welcome.
1:03:06
If people would like to learn more about you and the work
1:03:10
you're doing, where can they connect with you?
1:03:13
Yeah, so I I'm pretty easy to be found on LinkedIn.
1:03:17
I think it's one of my main platforms that I use.
1:03:19
I also do some sharing on Instagram and Sub Stack that I'm
1:03:26
hoping to use a little bit more to share some more articles
1:03:29
there. And yeah, I'd say there's also
1:03:33
some events that I'm going to in the upcoming period where I
1:03:36
where I'll either be moderating or speaking or giving workshops
1:03:40
or sessions AT. And yeah, they can also find me
1:03:43
there. Cool.
1:03:44
And we'll include those things in the show notes and you can
1:03:47
follow someone on sub stack and you can follow me there too.
1:03:50
So that's it's 2 for the price of 1.
1:03:54
And actually, it's actually the platform is free.
1:03:58
So, Salman, Sana, thank you very much for a wonderful
1:04:02
conversation. Thank you.
1:04:08
Well, that's it for episode 128 of Women Disrupting Tech with
1:04:13
Salman Sana, titled How to Be a Compassionate Ally for Women in
1:04:17
Tech. Salman, and I hope that you
1:04:20
found our conversation as engaging and compassionate as we
1:04:23
intended it to be. And if you have any questions
1:04:26
for Salman, please share them in the comments on Spotify, Apple
1:04:30
Podcasts, or YouTube. When you want to connect with
1:04:34
Salman and learn more about how he can help your team or
1:04:38
organization as a facilitator, keynote speaker, or consultant,
1:04:42
please check out the links in the show notes.
1:04:45
As usual, you can find the show notes and Whim disrupting
1:04:48
tactile block via the link in the caption.
1:04:52
There you can also find more information about the Embrace
1:04:55
Health event that I mentioned in the intro.
1:04:58
If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider
1:05:01
leaving a rating or review on Apple or Spotify.
1:05:06
Leaving a rating or a review helps new listeners find a
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1:05:39
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On LinkedIn. Just search for my name,
1:06:10
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1:06:14
wonderful day. I hope to see you in the next
1:06:16
episode. And until then, as always, keep
1:06:20
being awesome.