Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / How Do I Protect My Idea?

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How Do I Protect My Idea? · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
Welcome back to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
0:02
If you're building something in AI and you haven't checked out
0:05
the patent landscape, there's a non zero chance someone you've
0:08
never met already owns the rights to your $1,000,000 idea.
0:12
And one day, right when you hit real traction, they show up with
0:15
a law student stead of a term sheet.
0:17
On today's episode of AI for Founders, I'm talking with Ophir
0:21
Co, founder of Sense IP, an AI powered patent in IP platform
0:26
that turns the slow, expensive, attorney only patent process
0:30
into a fast, founder friendly validation step you can run on
0:33
day zero. We get into how patents actually
0:37
work in an AI world that moves faster than legal system, when
0:41
you should protect your IP, why provisionals are criminally
0:44
underused and how AI agents can make your ideas better and more
0:48
defensible, and how to avoid having your startup killed by a
0:52
piece of paper you ignored. If you're a founder, operator,
0:55
product leader, or engineer with too many ideas and not enough
0:58
time, this conversation will plug a huge hole in your
1:01
validation stack and might save you years of pain later.
1:05
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1:11
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That's Kit caster by MO Burst. Oh, fair.
2:49
Thank you so much for joining me.
2:50
Welcome to the podcast. Thank you.
2:52
Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
2:54
I'm really excited to talk to you largely because you're right
2:57
at the gateway of innovation, ideas and commerce.
3:02
And I wanted to start with a quote that I found from you
3:05
online. You said that patents contain
3:08
the hidden history of the future.
3:11
What future do you think that we are sleepwalking into?
3:15
That's a tough question to start with.
3:19
Obviously, the war is changing under our feet, right?
3:22
The AI is not only a dramatic shift in the state of mind of
3:27
people, but the adaptation rate is so fast than everything we
3:32
have ever knew or saw before. So, you know, technology usually
3:36
takes time until it's implemented by the masses.
3:41
But you can see, you know, Germany three's out, but people
3:45
are already using it. And not only people, but
3:47
companies are built around it. So it's it's a massive change in
3:51
the industry that impacts each and every one of us in the
3:55
world. And we carefully need to think
3:59
where we at in this world and where we're heading and what's
4:04
the, I would say the something special that we assume and can
4:08
bring with us to the table because this is getting more
4:12
narrow and narrow as the technology advances.
4:15
So I think that looking at the wall of innovation over the
4:20
years and how innovation was able to help push the boundaries
4:26
and create new things, I think that the essence of it is what
4:31
we'll see in the future. And that's what we focus on.
4:36
Amazing. And that's the perfect bridge to
4:38
your company Sense IP, which is patent search and patent filing
4:43
for entrepreneurs and inventors. So walk us through a little bit
4:47
of what your tool does. Well, it's, it's a little bit
4:50
more than just that. You know, ever since I was a
4:54
kid, I remember myself scrubbing and having duels of machines and
4:59
ideas. And every now and then I wrote
5:03
the paper about this is how a way see a future or things that
5:08
needs to be done. And then every every few weeks
5:11
or months, I read about something that I beg you
5:14
remember, you know, writing about years ago, I show my wife,
5:18
you see, this is a great company now.
5:20
And I had that idea ages ago. She looks at me and say, great,
5:25
and what did he do with it? And here's the thing, I strongly
5:29
believe that every person out there is an inventor.
5:32
Every person in the world have ideas.
5:35
Question is, what are we doing with these ideas?
5:38
You know, not a lot of people are entrepreneurs.
5:41
So having the drive to actually push that one step forward.
5:44
But even the ones that are entrepreneurs not necessarily
5:47
have the right path. I mean, the minute they had an
5:51
idea and they want to move forward, what's their next step?
5:54
Will they start talking to people?
5:55
Will they start asking Google or you know that ChatGPT about it?
6:01
It's a problem historically. What you should do is first of
6:06
all, check the basics, right? Make sure that you have
6:11
something unique, that you have freedom to operate, that you can
6:14
protect yourself before starting to try and gain some funds for
6:19
your company. Well, these processes, these
6:24
processes in the past were involving IP agents or IP
6:28
attorneys. And this, the minute you
6:31
mentioned that you'll mentally think about, oh, it's going to
6:33
cost me a lot. It will take me a lot of time.
6:36
It's not my focus now, right? I'm just beginning, beginning.
6:39
I don't want to spend money before I really know what I
6:42
have. Well, this is exactly where
6:45
Sensip jumps in. We want to make sure that we
6:48
democratize the way people innovate and invent.
6:52
We want to make sure that there won't be this obstacle that you
6:55
need to climb over of talking to IP attorney or God forbid,
7:00
forget about it and start doing that process two years down the
7:03
road after you already have a product and you may have a big
7:07
of issues. Our goal was to make it simple,
7:10
leverage the capabilities of an eye of the AI in order to help
7:15
you in a very simple conversation, share your idea,
7:19
whether it's a one liner or a full research document, and our
7:23
AI agent will help break it down to the concepts behind your idea
7:28
and then validate those concepts against everything else out
7:32
there. So we immediately in this
7:34
process you get to understand where you at, what's your
7:37
competition? Do you have freedom to operate?
7:41
Do you have something unique in your invention that will be
7:45
worthwhile? And if you don't, that's OK Part
7:49
of the iterative process in our system helps you understand what
7:53
can be unique. Hey, this is a quote from the
7:57
paragraph for patent. This is very similar to your
8:00
concept number four. Well, how can you make this
8:03
concept a bit more unique over that prior art?
8:06
That process, that thought process not only helps you
8:09
protect yourself, but more importantly, makes your product
8:12
stand out, make them unique and make you start the journey or
8:17
the path towards the success with a leg up.
8:21
Now this process, this intimate process of talking to the
8:25
platform takes only a few minutes.
8:28
So within minutes and very affordable cost, not only you go
8:32
through the verification as never before, but you also
8:36
finish up by this platform drafting and filing a
8:42
provisional patent application for you, which means you are
8:45
patent pending. So now you can easily and
8:49
securely go and share your ideas with the world and start
8:53
actually start your journey towards implementation.
8:56
So that's the basis of our platform, making sure that
9:00
everything that you do IP wise is done faster, better, more
9:05
affordable. And the cherry on top make that
9:09
with a business sense, which means and and this is something
9:13
that I'm very passionate about IP or intellectual property or
9:20
patent for that matter doesn't have any value if it doesn't
9:24
serve a business purpose, right. I'm myself.
9:28
I am a, you know, inventor and Co inventor of more than 300
9:32
patents. If you'll give me a subject,
9:36
I'll be able to patent it in less than an hour whenever
9:40
bizarre topic will bring me. But what's the value of it?
9:43
I mean, just a certificate of the wall.
9:48
If you want IP to work for you, you need to make sure that you
9:51
understand what they provide you.
9:53
I mean, yeah, this IP serves this feature or this product.
9:58
It protects it. This IP helps me fight
10:02
competition. So the ability to understand
10:05
from the get go what exactly is the purpose of the IP and ensure
10:08
that over the life cycle of the patents and your products in
10:13
general, we keep tab on exactly is that purpose still there?
10:19
Is it still being served correctly?
10:21
That's the key of actually right IP management and do that with
10:26
the small early stage inventors and Ford mores and start-ups and
10:31
it scales up to large corporates that have portfolios of hundreds
10:35
of patents in their pocket. They definitely need to manage
10:40
that with a business insights and not just be disconnected and
10:44
think about the patent as a patent.
10:49
Brilliant. I absolutely love this.
10:51
What a great utilization of AII mean.
10:54
You know, like the, the patent process is very difficult, you
10:59
know, and it's hard, it's hard to maneuver and it can, you can
11:02
do it wrong. For example, I have a friend of
11:04
mine had, he's got probably a dozen or so utility patents that
11:10
protect his invention. And he's been very, very
11:13
successful. However, what he found out is
11:15
that what he really needed was a design patent.
11:18
Because you have a utility patent, you put it on to Amazon.
11:22
Let's say you're selling your your unit and people were
11:25
knocking them off almost immediately.
11:27
And so really what was important was the design patent because
11:30
there's not a lot of engineers out there that can read a, a
11:33
utility patent, but everybody can see a design patent, you
11:37
know, pretty well AB test that if it's, you know, on a Amazon
11:41
screen and say like, yeah, that is infringement.
11:43
So is it giving that kind of tactical advice to say like,
11:46
Hey, you know what, you, you have something novel here, but
11:49
you might want to cover yourself with a design patent over here.
11:53
That that's a great question. Every case is a bit different,
11:57
right. I can for example, refer to the
12:03
known case of Apple versus Samsung with the original iPhone
12:07
eventually important and the initial ruling was a billion
12:11
dollar to be paid from Samsung to Apple for infringement.
12:15
The initial case was about two patents.
12:19
One of them is the design patent, indeed, the look and
12:22
feel of the iPhone. And, you know, as part of the
12:26
discovery, there was this memo at Samsung saying something in
12:31
the lines of, hey, see what Apple did, let's do the same.
12:35
So yeah, that's a bit revealing. The other thing was a utility
12:39
patent, that is, was one of dozens of other patents that
12:42
Apple filed. And this was about the what's
12:47
called the rubber band effect, right when you swipe down and
12:52
pull down on the iPhone and you see how it jumps back in.
12:55
Riff Yeah, Rish, that's a utility patent.
12:58
And these two patents, both the utility and the design patterns
13:02
were what, 1 the case. So, yeah, every case is
13:06
different. And our AI tries to go through
13:11
the notions of what will be the best strategy to protect your
13:16
invention here. Now, we focused on patents, but
13:19
patents are not necessarily the only option.
13:22
For example, there are other types of intellectual property,
13:27
you know, trade secrets. Everybody knows probably about
13:31
Coca-Cola, right? Boca Cola didn't write patents
13:35
about their formula. One of the problems with patents
13:38
is that you need to disclose your invention so that people
13:42
can learn from it, and then in 20 years people can imitate that
13:46
because you won't have the patent in force and more.
13:50
What Coca-Cola did, for example, is secured their formula really,
13:55
really tightly. Some would say that it's
13:57
somewhere in a safe in Switzerland or something like
13:59
that. Only two people are allowed to
14:01
access. I don't know the true story, but
14:03
The thing is trade secrets are basically something that you
14:06
say. I don't want to protect that
14:08
with patent. I think I can can hide it really
14:12
well within my organization. And that's a very valid decision
14:16
as long as you can identify what you have a straight secret and
14:22
you make sure that you put all the measures in place so that no
14:26
one else will access that. Because yeah, if trade secret is
14:30
leaked, if it's just because you did put the right security
14:34
measures on it, nothing you can do about it.
14:37
You'll just cry all the way till fall.
14:42
That's one of the downsides of it.
14:44
What I'm trying to say here is that the algorithm that we
14:48
generated in our AI tries not only to oppress things by
14:52
patents, but also see, can we instead maybe it will make more
14:57
sense to have a trade secrets. Some house that we're working on
15:00
towards the future is maybe the ability to, instead of the fence
15:06
ourselves with a patent or trade secrets, let's publish portions
15:11
of that idea so that will block others from filing patents.
15:16
There's a lot of techniques here that needs to be considered, but
15:22
it's on a base to base case and the fact that we have the AI
15:26
capabilities to consider so many factors in a heartbeat.
15:32
You know this was never possible before with the manual work of
15:38
patent agents and patent attorneys.
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18:16
You know, they say ideas are cheap.
18:18
You know, it's ultimately what you do with them.
18:20
And I think the the listeners of this podcast, these are
18:23
founders, these are operators, these are people who know how to
18:26
execute. A lot of times they've raised
18:28
millions of dollars to go execute on that idea.
18:32
Now all of us, I think, have ideas.
18:35
How early in the process should we be testing and looking for
18:39
some kind of some some kind of patent or some way to protect
18:42
the IP? If you ask me, my recommendation
18:47
everyone is as soon as you have the idea, start validating that
18:52
with the right platform and I would comment that Chatter GPT
18:56
is not the right platform. The right platform means
18:59
something that is secure and something that has the special
19:04
fine tune towards understanding ideas and the references to the
19:11
IP world. I think that if you'll start the
19:15
process correctly with the right platform, and obviously I'm not
19:20
objective here, I believe that sense IP is the best platform,
19:24
it will only takes, it only takes a few minutes.
19:29
Only a few minutes for you to understand better where you at,
19:32
what you're fighting against or your potential competitors, how
19:35
to make your idea even more unique and in case of need,
19:40
protect that all in a matter of minutes.
19:44
And it's very affordable. So there's nothing to lose here.
19:47
What we realized lately is that more and more companies trying
19:53
to integrate that thought process and that, you know, day
19:58
zero, if you will, that's part of their product life cycle.
20:02
So the amount of engineer or product person have an idea and
20:06
wants to start the journey towards implementing that as a
20:09
feature or a product. He starts the process correctly
20:13
with that platform with Sense 80 to ensure that he has the right
20:17
of path and he's secured in his journey.
20:22
Incredible. You know, the validation process
20:25
is possibly the most important aspect of being an entrepreneur.
20:30
And perhaps people can relate to me because I get excited by
20:34
ideas and I will stick my head in the sand and work on
20:37
something for 18 months if I don't, if I allow myself to.
20:42
So I've set up a lot of guardrails personally so that if
20:46
I have an idea, it has to go through a validation process
20:49
because honestly, I just don't have enough time, you know, So,
20:52
you know, for me it has to make money, it has to be of service
20:56
and it has to be fun to do. It has to go through those three
20:59
things. If I have an idea and I it's
21:01
gone through that process, then I have 100 phone calls.
21:05
I'll make sure I have 100 phone calls with people to see what
21:08
they think about the idea to see if there's, there's some ground
21:10
here, see if I can get some early customers.
21:13
Now what I'm going to do is start using this as a part of my
21:16
validation process, largely because of what you said now in
21:19
the past. It's like, man, I don't want to
21:22
go check patents and like it. It's it, you have to look a
21:26
different way. If you don't hit the filter just
21:28
right, you might miss it anyway. But what I really like about
21:31
your product, and I love that it has a, a free opportunity to, to
21:35
test the platform and use it is because with AI, it can actually
21:39
make your idea better, which is to say make it more defensible
21:43
should you need it down the road, You know, so it's like it,
21:46
it, it's for me, it's like, is it fun?
21:48
Does it make money? Is it of service?
21:50
And like, you know, the, the ultimate gut check is I'm the
21:53
right, am I the right person to do it?
21:55
But also, is it like, has it already been been done before or
21:59
could it be done better in a more defensible way?
22:02
Because what's worse than like you, you raise money around a
22:05
great idea you get, you get early traction and, you know,
22:09
$1,000,000 run rate and someone comes knocking on the doors
22:12
like, hey, great idea. We had that five years ago.
22:14
And you actually you owe us a big chunk of cash.
22:17
You know, that's heartbreaker, you know, and that could kill,
22:20
kill the company before it really gets off the ground.
22:23
You know, So I would love it. When we're talking about
22:26
validation, we're talking about protecting your IP.
22:29
You said you have 300 patents. So talk to me about what, what
22:34
is your intention for those 300 patents?
22:37
Well, most of them were written and and granted well I was
22:43
working on previous companies and I was you know responsible
22:48
for innovation. So you will see quite a
22:51
interesting mix there of some cybersecurity, data governance,
22:56
patents on the one hand, some mechanical and electric and some
23:00
chemical devices as well. It's a strange mix.
23:04
I'm personally a start of my career as a chemical engineer.
23:09
I didn't switch to software. So I do a little bit of
23:12
everything, but my passion is software.
23:15
I, I believe that everything is possible with software.
23:19
We don't have real limits. So that the fact that by the
23:23
way, these days we have AI that can help us implement things so
23:26
much faster in the software business turns the focus into
23:32
the core inventorship. What do I invent?
23:36
How do I think they have so much power today to implement things,
23:41
especially in software and later on, I guess the robotics will
23:45
help us catch up that gap with manufacturing as well.
23:48
But right now, just with the right prompt, I can build
23:52
software. The question is, what's the
23:55
value for the software? Obviously as an entrepreneur,
23:58
you must think, is it something that will have a market?
24:02
What's you know, the what's the market cap?
24:05
What's the LTV? What will be the cap?
24:07
All those things are important because without that, if you
24:10
don't actually answer a need, it won't be worth anything.
24:14
The thing that most entrepreneurs are trying to
24:17
avoid because it's nasty, it's tedious task, it's it's, it's,
24:21
it's not on their top five priorities is do we have
24:27
something that we can protect? And is someone else has
24:31
something to say against what we're developing in terms of are
24:35
we infringing their technology? And to your point, that's a
24:40
process that you said I'll check quickly and then I'll go and
24:45
talk to 100 people. Well, make sure that those 100
24:48
people potentially early customers when they start
24:52
talking to you, they won't side Ndas.
24:54
So you're exposing yourself. And I fully understand the state
24:58
of mind till now of entrepreneurs pay will take the
25:03
risk. It doesn't worth the time and
25:05
money. Just just calling a patent
25:07
lawyer will cost me 4 digits even before saying hello.
25:13
So yeah, you don't need that right now.
25:15
Well, yeah, you don't. There are other ways.
25:18
And, and one of the things I've been really passionate about is
25:22
try to catch up with the speed and tenacity of entrepreneurs by
25:29
providing them tools that will not divert their focus from
25:32
being with the right products, but actually will help in doing
25:35
that and doing that correctly with no, you know, obstacles, no
25:40
delay, no extra payments and no time wasted.
25:45
So smart. Such a great business model.
25:47
I mean, taking something that's slow and expensive and making it
25:50
fast and cheap. I like it.
25:54
I like it. Now, I think there's probably a
25:57
lot of people that are working in hardware listening to this
25:59
show, but most are probably listening or they are working in
26:03
software. You know, with with hardware
26:05
products, you know, you got to have the utility patents, you
26:08
got to have the design patents, you got to make sure you're
26:10
squared away, you got your CAD out, you got to make sure you're
26:13
doing everything good. But what about what about
26:15
software or service companies? Like how concerned should they
26:18
be about their IP? They should be.
26:22
I mean over the years there have been trends back and forth,
26:25
independent office, you know, back in 2011 for example, there
26:29
started to be a few rulings in the Supreme Court in the US,
26:34
Ellis Mayo, etcetera, that questioned the concept of
26:38
abstract idea and many of them were interpreted as his
26:44
software, an abstract idea. Can you patent software and
26:48
there was a lot of back and forth between the Patent Office
26:51
and what it allowed and the Supreme Court what it allowed.
26:53
And obviously the the rulings itself.
26:56
Well, Congress, the Congress is still out.
26:59
They haven't decided anything yet.
27:00
But, you know, suffer patents are really important.
27:06
And I hear a lot lately people saying, well, yeah, but no one
27:14
will actually be able to see what I'm doing, so they won't be
27:17
able to sue me because I'm infringing their patents.
27:20
Well, that's false. In case of a litigation case,
27:25
there's E discovery. They'll know exactly what you're
27:28
doing. So you won't be able able to
27:30
hang there. Some people would say, yeah, but
27:33
the technology moves so fast. So by the time I'll get the
27:37
patent, it will change. Well, again, that's not that
27:40
100% true because, yeah, well, it will take time for the
27:45
patents to get granted. Eventually it will.
27:48
And you can backward sue or, you know, deal in mitigation whoever
27:54
infringe you or vice versa. So the fact that it might take
27:58
time for the Patent Office and yeah, the system is not perfect,
28:02
is not an excuse. I think that the most important
28:06
though, is not to think about IP as necessarily a attack tactics
28:12
or defensive mechanism, but think about it as a helper,
28:18
someone that will tell you or give you the real truth about
28:23
where you at in terms of a product.
28:25
Is it unique? What are you competing against?
28:29
The level of intelligence that you get from patents is very,
28:33
very important and can make you not only make your product
28:38
better, but make your company better.
28:41
So yeah, I strongly recommend even for software to deal with
28:47
every feature and every product they introduce as potential with
28:52
for patents. And now that the process itself
28:55
is very fast, lean and and actually fun, they're added
29:01
perks to using it. Yeah, well, that's what I love
29:04
about your product and it can make your idea better, you know,
29:07
because often times if you go look for competition and you
29:11
find some, it's a good idea. That means that they're probably
29:14
some money there, you know? We we strive to assist.
29:19
The invention is all you. I mean the people that bring the
29:22
ideas, they will bring up the solutions.
29:25
We will encourage them and we will be there to show them what
29:30
may be the problems and cause them to overcome that.
29:34
And we'll give them all the tools.
29:36
But this is something that, you know, I don't predict the future
29:40
because it's too risky. I still strongly believe that
29:46
inventorship is something that will make us human or makes us
29:51
human unique. So regardless of how much the AI
29:55
will develop, it will be mostly trying to figure out things
30:01
based on existing data and it will not have real innovation.
30:08
This is something that we want to encourage the people to keep
30:11
up and doing and do more. Yeah, It can only make your
30:14
ideas better and stronger. It's taking kind of, you know,
30:17
patents, taking it from like a scary place of like legislation
30:21
and attorneys and, you know, people in mahogany offices to
30:26
being like, no, these ideas exist here, but here's how you
30:29
could tweak it to make it better.
30:31
So you're, you're using the, the, the knowledge of all the
30:34
folks that have come come behind you that had enough wherewithal
30:37
and enough belief in their product to get it patent that
30:40
you can see, you know what they're doing.
30:42
You can see where they, you can improve on that.
30:45
So it becomes a creative process as opposed to 1 of legislative
30:49
because to your point, people like AI is moving so fast.
30:52
Plus do judges and attorneys even understand this technology
30:56
stack now? How was that ever going to go
30:57
through any kind of core case? Worse than that, remember that
31:00
most patent cases in the US are jury trials, right?
31:07
Makes it more funny. You know, in the middle of
31:10
Marshall, TX, middle of the desert, they have an ice rink
31:14
sponsored by Samsung because they know that they'll go to
31:17
court there. But to your point, and it's a
31:20
very, very important point, the whole patent system as we know
31:24
it was part of the American Revolution.
31:27
Our forefathers were so smart to understand that in order to
31:31
build a nation, they need innovation and they want to make
31:36
sure that this is a democratized system.
31:38
Before the American Revolution patent system in in Europe, you
31:44
know, mid age Italy and and even for example, where only for the
31:49
select few, you know, close to the king.
31:53
Hey, I'm Mr. King, I allow you, my house inventor to have
31:58
exclusivity. That's it.
32:00
The American Revolution said, first of all, everybody can be
32:03
an inventor. Second, yeah, you will get the
32:07
backing of the government, making sure that you have the
32:10
rights back in return. In return, you need to share
32:14
what exactly you did so that people can learn better.
32:17
You know, Isaac Newton said that if I got to something in my
32:21
life, it's just because I stepped over the shoulders of
32:24
giants that came before me. That was part of what the patent
32:28
system was all about. Let's us share the data.
32:31
Let us learn from it. We completely missed the mark
32:33
there over the last few decades. And I think the right platform
32:38
that leveraging AI will get that benefit back on.
32:45
Incredible. Tell me that again.
32:48
What did you say about a Samsung skating rink?
32:50
They sponsor the skating rink outside the court.
32:53
Ice rink. Ice rink.
32:56
So the jury be swayed like wow, I like Samsung because.
33:00
Part of part of the, you know, patent trials with juries are so
33:05
bizarre. In one case the court was asked
33:11
and then it ordered to make sure that they remove any Insignia
33:14
from the TV's in the court just so that the juries won't be
33:20
distracted. One of the one of the
33:25
challenges, by the way, of the patent system and the, I would
33:29
say patent agents, patent attorneys, is that because
33:33
eventually when you get to court, it is most likely judged
33:38
by jury. You need to make sure that the
33:42
jury can understand the patents. Yeah.
33:45
I mean, most of our entrepreneurs and inventors are
33:50
pretty smart, clever guys. And I would say 9% of us don't
33:54
know how to read a patent because it's written so intense
33:59
intentionally. It's written in a way that is
34:02
not just plain English. So the challenge of explaining
34:06
that to a jury means think outside the box, not to just
34:10
describe what you're doing, but be able to give examples that
34:13
relate to the common person that will read that.
34:17
And this is actually a very interesting capability that we
34:22
can gain with AI. You know, people when they're
34:25
thinking about AI, one of their concerns talking about AI that
34:28
relates to legal subject is about hallucinations of the AI.
34:34
What will happen if, well, in our case and specifically here
34:40
after or system draft the claims for your invention.
34:45
It also goes ahead and tries for each and every claim, understand
34:48
what are the different use cases.
34:50
It will do that based on all the data that you shared with it.
34:53
So if you provided some examples for usage from you know what,
34:58
what you came up with, we'll definitely use that.
35:01
But the system, the AI, will also try to find out other use
35:04
cases. And here, hallucinations are
35:07
welcome because we already saw so many cases where people came
35:11
up with one idea that they thought, oh, yeah, that's a
35:14
great idea that will, I don't know, help us with writing
35:19
tools. Right.
35:20
And then the egg comes with an idea that, you know, the same
35:23
clay can be also used to harvest technology.
35:29
Now this is something that maybe the juries will relate more to,
35:34
so adding more examples not only enriches your the strength of
35:40
your patent and with for how how other areas you can cover, but
35:47
it also something that will help you later on.
35:49
As far as the prosecute of the mitigation, hopefully you won't
35:53
need to suffer it, but it's good to have it there.
35:56
Amazing. I'd like to do a little
35:58
role-playing. Are you are you up for that?
36:01
Yo, OK, I'm me and your sense IPAI.
36:06
OK, now I'm an inventor and I I am an inventor.
36:09
You know, I don't do a lot of hardware, but every once in a
36:11
while I do. I was very close to bringing a
36:13
product to market and I didn't do it.
36:16
But I want to. I'm coming to sense IP to
36:20
validate my idea. OK, so I'm typing in your sense
36:23
IP. I'm saying, OK, I have an idea.
36:26
It's called the Blillow, and it's a blanket made out of
36:30
pillows. It's the blillow.
36:32
It's a pillow blanket. And then I hit enter.
36:34
Now what? What is Sense IP going to do
36:36
right off the bat? Oh, let me put the Leo mask
36:40
because our the agent is called Leo.
36:43
Leo. Yeah, it's him for Leonardo da
36:48
Vinci. I I like it side conversation,
36:51
why not Albert? Because there's already too many
36:56
AI agents that named after Albert famously 1 is Salesforce.
37:00
He may not mistake. OK, just paid that university a
37:05
lot of money to use Einstein. I would say that we checked that
37:10
option before. Yeah, you would definitely be
37:13
more appropriate, right? Actually that Albert worked in
37:17
the Basel Patent Office. Exactly, Yeah.
37:20
But Leo was amazing inventor Leonardo A. 100%.
37:24
About patents, because this there was no real patent system
37:28
back in the days. So as Leo, I will say that it
37:33
sounds very exciting and I would like to hear more.
37:37
For example, I understand that there are two elements.
37:40
There are two concepts for your invention.
37:42
It's a blanket and it's made of pillow.
37:45
Great. Let's start with these two.
37:47
Let's make sure that they got it right.
37:49
Now let's try to dive deeper into it.
37:51
What does it mean? Is there anything special about
37:54
the pillows? Is there anything special about
37:57
how you connect them together? I will try to understand for
38:00
each and every element or each and every concept of your
38:03
invention, how was it made, what is it used for and what you
38:07
think about it. Now, we'll start with a high
38:10
level view. So we sort of these two elements
38:13
and maybe you'll tell me, you know, those pillows are stitched
38:16
together with a cross pattern, blah, blah, blah.
38:20
I don't know what at this stage before we keep diving, having a
38:25
deep dive, we'll have a quick identity check.
38:28
So as Leo, I will check that it has novelty, it has, you know,
38:34
inventive step and it's not an abstract idea.
38:38
And I'll give you a high level assessment.
38:40
You know, it sounds like there might be something there.
38:43
I am a little bit bit concerned about, you know, inventive step
38:48
because it might be that your invention is just taking pillows
38:52
together and stitching them, which you know.
38:55
Well, well, let me let me finish my idea, Leo.
38:59
Actually, I'm glad you're asking questions.
39:02
OK Leo, So what I'm doing is it has 6 chambers and two long
39:07
zippers and the idea is to repurpose your old, you know,
39:11
stuffed up pillows and you put them in the blillow compartment
39:14
and you zip it back up. Right.
39:16
Yeah, you added a few more elements here, a few more
39:18
concepts. So you said zippers, you said
39:22
that it's reuse of existing and you said something like 6.
39:27
OK, so one of the key elements is to make sure that the patent
39:32
eventually that will make won't be too narrow.
39:35
So you tell me 6 and as Leo I'll ask you why 6 and not 8?
39:41
Can it be any number under 10 for example?
39:43
Because here's what will happen if we will write the patent that
39:47
in the claim will say 6 pillows. Guess what someone genius will
39:51
come and say I'll do the same with 7 pillows.
39:57
Well, he's not really infringing what you claimed, right?
40:03
So yeah, that's something that we'll check.
40:05
We'll try to check concept whether it's we, we, we'll try
40:11
to make sure that we're are not tied to specific numbers or
40:15
limiting numbers. If there is number there, we'll
40:17
try to understand why that what you think about that number.
40:21
And then we'll go ahead and say, OK, now that we've got maybe
40:27
you'll continue and provide us some more information, for
40:29
example, that those old pillows needs to be of certain weight or
40:34
size or a special, you know way to combine them together.
40:40
But at this stage, our system will go ahead and check against
40:43
everything else that is known out there, mostly patents if
40:47
there's already a mention of something like that.
40:50
So we might come up with a patent from, oh, just imagine,
40:55
right, patent from Japan from the early 90s that is talking
41:00
about stuffed animals. That is basically a sort of a
41:04
pillowcase that you can bring your own pillows or cushions in
41:10
it. And then you have that animal
41:14
and I'll, I'll show you. Hey, so here's the paragraph
41:17
from the stat and talking about the stuffing of that pillow
41:21
case. Tell me how you differ from
41:23
that. And well, Mike, tell me you know
41:25
what, right. They said zippers as well.
41:29
Maybe they won't use zippers. Maybe I'll use a combination of
41:33
a Scotch or a Velcro, for example, or needs or something
41:39
that is not necessarily trivial to integrate.
41:45
And could I, could I ask that question?
41:46
So if you, Leo comes back and say, hey, hate to break it to
41:50
you, but somebody already did this.
41:52
Could I say, well, like, how could I make it novel that I
41:54
wouldn't infringe on their patents?
41:56
So part of the Leo modus Brandy is not only show you, hey,
42:02
that's bad, but also here's my analysis for it.
42:05
So I believe that this is very close.
42:08
Here's the thing that is might be unique about yours.
42:13
OK, Now again, Leo cannot invent for you, but he may give you
42:18
some hints that you'll say, ah, I can work with that.
42:23
So if for example, it tells you yeah, the the the commonality
42:27
between your two ideas is the zippers on the side, maybe think
42:31
about a different gate that might be enough for you to think
42:36
about something else, which then we all will analyze and see.
42:40
For example, let's say that you went with the Velcro.
42:42
We all would say, great, here's another patent that talks about
42:48
closing the killer case with Velcro.
42:51
Now combination of these two prior art means that still
42:56
you're not unique unless you can tell me that there's something
42:59
unique about your Velcro implementation.
43:03
So we're trying to break down for you to a very simple terms
43:07
of is it unique? Is it non trivial?
43:11
And if so, we can go ahead and actually, you know, patent it.
43:16
Love it and love it. And then around the patents,
43:19
you've got the ability for a one time provisional patent or non
43:23
provisional patent that you can go straight to the platform and
43:26
then your pricing has kind of a tiered option kind of on a SAS
43:29
subscription model. How did you kind of settle on
43:32
price point? Well, we started with the ad
43:36
hoc, you know, a la carte model where people would come and just
43:40
protect themselves. And we believe that the
43:42
provisional patents are dramatically underutilized in
43:46
the US I'll give you an example. They're roughly 700,000 patent
43:53
applications every year. A non provisional patent
43:56
applications in the US roughly 300 something granted patents if
44:02
you think about it as a funnel. So granted patent, patent
44:06
application, you think that the layer above it will be the
44:10
provisional patent applications and that should be in the area
44:14
for 1.52 million applications a year.
44:17
But surprisingly there's only 170,000 application provisional
44:22
applications every year. Now let's spend a second to talk
44:26
about what is a provisional. Provisional is not a patent,
44:28
it's a patent pending. It's basically securing the
44:32
priority date. It tells the Patent Office, hey,
44:36
I invented that idea in this date and within the next 12
44:40
months I'll work a little bit more about it and then I'll file
44:44
a real non provisional patent application which will claim
44:48
priority from that date. Why is that?
44:51
Because it's part of the American Invent Act.
44:53
In 2011, during Obama period, the US switched to what's called
44:59
first to final. So Ryan, if both you and I
45:02
independently invented the same thing in our, you know,
45:07
basement, let's say that you had two months head start, but I was
45:13
the first one to go to the Patent Office with it.
45:16
It doesn't matter that you'll prove that you started two
45:18
months before I did. Soon the the first person that
45:22
went to the Patent Office and tried to file a patent, he will
45:25
win. That's why the priority date is
45:28
very important. Now, provisional is a really
45:32
cool tool that the the US patent has, which means you don't need
45:36
formal documentation, no claims, no fancy patent figures.
45:44
It's very simple and it's very cheap for what's called a micro
45:47
entity, an individual inventor under certain circumstances.
45:51
The filing fee is only 65 bucks. The problem is the gatekeeper
45:57
for writing patents are the patent attorneys, a patent
46:00
agent, and it doesn't serve their time to spend it on
46:04
provisional applications that have that morality of only
46:08
170,000. We change that it's very
46:12
efficient, very effective to file provisional with us.
46:16
Then we price that so it will include the filing fee, make it
46:19
very simple within the year from filing the provisional until
46:23
that expires. This is we'll keep cab and check
46:27
if there's anything new and we'll notify you when it's time
46:29
to convert that to a non provisional.
46:31
And again, even there that the an average cost of drafting and
46:37
filing a non provision in the US sits in between 10 to $15,000.
46:43
In our case it's 5000, which is very competitive.
46:46
And our price also includes the prosecution, the examination
46:51
process, which not a lot of people are aware, but once the
46:56
patent will be picked by the examiner at the Patent Office,
46:59
there will start a negotiation between him and your patent
47:03
attorney. The better the application is,
47:05
there will be less cycles of it. But for each and every cycle,
47:10
you will need to pay because your patent attorney will spend
47:13
time getting the rejection, understanding what's written
47:18
there, trying to come up with a strategy of how to respond, then
47:21
drafting the response and filing the response.
47:24
It's is a lot of time and money. We do incredible for you, so
47:30
we'll charge you. Well, and with, you know, sense
47:33
you don't have to talk to an attorney, which, you know, I
47:35
love attorneys, great people, many friends.
47:39
However, when you get that itemized bill and they they
47:41
charge you $37 for reading your e-mail, there's just a certain
47:44
like alarm that goes off in your head.
47:48
Their business model is charged by the hour, which is perfectly
47:54
OK. I think it's a bit dated for the
47:57
AI world and we agreed. Agreed.
48:01
All right, we're coming to time, but we we got to go through the
48:03
lightning round. Ophira, Are you ready for the
48:05
lightning round go All right sense IP.
48:07
How did you finance? Excuse me, how did you finance
48:12
the product or the the business? Oh, we have amazing investors.
48:17
Incredible. How much have you did you raise?
48:19
On a so far six and a half million. 6 1/2 mil Great.
48:23
And then how big is the team right now?
48:25
13 guys. 13 guys. And how what's the make up as
48:29
far as engineers, sales, operations?
48:32
Mostly engineers. We have, yeah, about 9 engineers
48:39
and the rest are marketing. We do PLG only.
48:43
We don't have sales team. So everything is marketing.
48:46
OK. If you what's a business idea
48:49
you have that you have not patented yet?
48:55
There is none. I mean I I'm great believer in
49:01
either own dog food. So I used a lot of platform to
49:05
patent things. 100% are you any concerned about patent trolls
49:09
using the platform and using this great advantage, cost
49:12
savings, benefit to be able to go out there and look, look who
49:15
doesn't have patents and to start filing for it.
49:18
Yes, we are trying to be very careful about abuse of those
49:23
powers in our platform. I can only look.
49:25
We're also working on futures towards the future, not the
49:30
futures toward the future. That will help you be your own
49:33
troll to some extent. So make sure actually you can
49:36
monetize on your IP. Love it.
49:39
If you were entering college as a freshman, knowing what you
49:42
know now, what would you study? That that's a good question.
49:49
Somebody that will, I don't know, have fun with what?
49:54
Would that be ceramics? B Yeah, something in the arts.
50:00
Yeah, amazing. OK.
50:03
Is there ACEO entrepreneur or inventor that you follow or
50:06
admire? Steve Jobs Jobs Distortion being
50:11
able to define revolution on four different worlds.
50:17
It's short of a. Miracle, he's incredible guy.
50:20
I mean, I love hearing the stories about him because on
50:23
one-on-one hand, such an incredible entrepreneur, such an
50:26
incredible designer, and also just a remarkably horrible human
50:31
being in some aspects. As the clarity of thought about
50:34
so many things and he he didn't let other things to distracting
50:38
like for example human connections.
50:42
Awesome. I want I we always like to give
50:45
shout outs to charitable organizations and I can't wait
50:48
to hear about yours. You said volunteer firefighting.
50:52
That's a unique. Yeah, that's a very unique talk
50:55
about your experience as a volunteer firefighter.
50:57
And maybe add how listeners I didn't know that was even an
51:00
option might be able to get involved in their communities.
51:04
So more than 75% of the firefighters in the US are
51:08
volunteers. This is something that is
51:10
embedded into our history. The first Volunteer Fire brigade
51:15
was in Philly, created by Benjamin Franklin.
51:18
Here you have another connection to inventors.
51:21
The the fire service is proud special volunteers to be part of
51:26
the community. Especially in small towns, you
51:29
are part of the community. You go to the Firehouse, you
51:32
volunteer as a firefighter, you go through the training because
51:35
fire doesn't know whether you get paid or not.
51:38
So go get through the exact same training and you get to know
51:42
people that are part of your community.
51:45
You normally not necessarily know them and you know, actively
51:50
contribute to something we are missing on volunteers, not just
51:55
the Forest Service in general in our days.
51:57
And I believe that taking a pause from work and do something
52:02
for your community which will enrich you as well is amazing.
52:06
One last point here I'll like to make is there's a lot of
52:11
similarities between entrepreneur and a firefighter.
52:14
You know you are dealing with fighters on a daily basis, but
52:18
more than that, you need to avoid tunnel vision, right?
52:22
You need to have a big perspective pre planning.
52:25
You need to be aware of what you do in advance.
52:28
So there's a lot of similarities and I believe that having the
52:33
interdisciplinary learning from different aspects will make you
52:37
better as a person. So I encourage everyone go to
52:41
your local Firehouse check they are most likely are looking for
52:44
volunteers. Apply.
52:47
It's fun. It's worth it.
52:50
Do do you think I could drive the truck?
52:52
Oh yeah, listen, we are just boys with toys, right?
52:57
They are the bigger toys. And there's nothing bigger than
53:00
a toy fire. A real fire truck.
53:03
It's a toy unless you are friend of Bezos and then you get on a
53:08
space ship. You get a space.
53:10
I'm not going to space, but I would love to drive a a fire
53:12
truck or get the boots and a hat with an axe.
53:16
Oh man, that sounds really cool. I I I love that.
53:19
Keeps you in shape. It's bad.
53:21
It's bad. Do you?
53:23
Do you get to like sleep at the at the Firehouse and go down the
53:26
pole and stuff? You know, our Firehouse and 10
53:29
fly shout out. We don't have a pole and we
53:34
sleep only in case of, you know, there's a dramatic, you know,
53:40
case a storm or something like that.
53:42
Otherwise we always have our pagers with us and so cool.
53:47
They just crawl and whoever is available, jump on the car, turn
53:52
on the blue lights, run to the Firehouse, put on the gear to
53:56
the truck and let's work. Incredible.
53:59
I love it. You ever seen that movie Gangs
54:02
in New York that there's that great scene when each gang has
54:06
their own Volunteer Fire Department.
54:07
So when there's a fire, the like different gangs like bring their
54:11
fire trucks, they start fighting each other.
54:12
It's just great. Yeah, I I don't think that this
54:16
exists anymore. I hope not.
54:19
You're a small Bergen County north of Jersey, where I am.
54:23
There's so many small towns here and we all mutual each other.
54:27
So you know, 3:00 AM, there's a fire call in DuMont.
54:32
They'll call us in Bergenfield and Cresskill and we'll all join
54:35
together and work our ass off until it's done.
54:40
Amazing you don't have beefs with the other firehouses.
54:42
It's not how it works. Anymore we we bust each other
54:46
nuts. Of course it's part of the
54:48
tradition, but no, we we will love each other.
54:52
Fantastic Ophir, this has been wonderful.
54:54
I really appreciate your time. It's sense IP dot AI as the
54:58
website where can people connect with you online personally.
55:01
LinkedIn OPHIRK one or Ophir K at sense AP dot AI.
55:09
Tremendous. Thank you so much for joining
55:10
me. Thank you so much.
55:14
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