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Why Your Brain Loves to Spend Money. · The Curve

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So the brain gets very excited by new and novel things, so purchasing something like a new outfit.
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The newness is what's kind of exciting to the brain, especially the online shopping experience.
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There's so many different products. It feels like there's endless amounts of things we could look at.
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The companies that create these platforms and site to know that it's intentional to get you to spend.
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Dopamine, it gives us this experience of short-term gratification.
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And then dopamine is involved in us seeking that thing out again and again and again.
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The faster we do something, it's one of the reason why poker machines are so addictive,
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because you can play them so quickly.
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And tech companies know this, right?
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How easy is it to purchase something?
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Credit cards are stored in our phone.
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We're unlocked with Face ID.
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There are very few buffers along the way.
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What we can do is try to make spending finances a bit harder.
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Not having cards stored in your browser or on your phone,
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so that you have to actually pull out your card and enter the number in.
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That's such a good advice.
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I went through and I'm only kind of just starting to come out of it,
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and it sounds so stupid, but...
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Well, welcome, Anastasia.
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We're so excited to have you on the podcast.
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Thank you.
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Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, oh my gosh.
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You're an expert in it.
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Could you just introduce yourself?
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What is a clinical psychologist and how you got into that field?
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What interests you about it?
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Just, yes, let's start from the beginning.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So I'm a clinical psychologist and I work across both clinical practice and academia.
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So I'm a lecturer in researcher, but then I also see clients in the clinic
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for a range of mental health concerns, but my main area of focus is around addiction,
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or when people have an unhealthy relationship to something which can become an addiction.
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And so dopamine is very much implicated in the development of an unhealthy relationship
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with something or the development of an addiction, and so hence the kind of focus on dopamine
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as a neurotransmitter and the role that it plays in how we can form some unhealthy habits.
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What determines an addiction or an unhealthy relationship?
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Because for someone, they might have an unhealthy relationship with chocolate, for example.
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And then other people, they have an unhealthy relationship with drugs.
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Where it's so broad and for everyone, I assume it would be very, very personal, very, very different.
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Yes, it's such a good question.
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I often say to people, something's only a problem if it's a problem, right?
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So if you're eating a piece of chocolate every day and it's not causing any problems for you,
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then great. But what we often find is that people start to develop this experience of feeling
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out of control of something. So the urge or the craving or the impulse to gamble to eat chocolate,
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to take drugs, whatever it might be, becomes stronger and starts to feel less in their control.
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They start to become more preoccupied thinking about that thing more.
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And then when they can have it next or take it next, so it takes up a lot of their mental focus
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and starts to have a lot of negative impacts in their life.
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So then can we start with the basics? What actually is dopamine?
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And why does it play such a powerful role in decision-making?
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And how does that then relate to addiction?
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So basically, what we find is that dopamine is a neurotransmitter, which is essentially a chemical
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messenger in the brain and body and it sends messages between the brain and the central nervous
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system. And it does a lot of things in our brain and body. So it helps regulate kidney function.
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It helps with us storing memories. It helps with movement. Do we see people who have Parkinson's
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disease? Dopamine is implicated. So it does heaps of different things. But one of the things
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it's most known for is it gives us this experience of pleasure. That sense of really short-term
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gratification and that's how it's kind of involved in addiction because something feels good.
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And then dopamine is involved in us seeking that thing out again and again and again. And so we
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fall into this kind of unhealthy habit or pattern with wanting, you know, the chocolate or whatever
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it might be more and more. So it's all about craving a feeling rather than anything. So I guess
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addiction really could be anything from cleaning to heroin. You know, it's like there's so many
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different ways that people could be chasing a feeling and the thing is kind of irrelevant.
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Yes, there's that sort of short-term gratification, that pleasure, that real like in the moment,
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it feels really good, but it also kind of dies off quite quickly. So if you think about like
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eating a piece of chocolate, you take the first bite and you're like, oh yum, it's delicious,
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second bite. Yep, it's great. Third bite, you're probably thinking about something else and then
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by the, I don't know, I've had this experience full for fifth bite. I'm not even focusing on the
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chocolate anymore. I'm somewhere else. So it's it's very kind of instantaneous. And from an
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evolutionary perspective, it was necessary for us to hunt and gather food to have sex and
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procreate for the survival of the species. But nowadays we don't need to work as hard for that
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feeling of pleasure and you know, for survival essentially. And is it always bad? Like is dopamine
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always such a kind of a short-lived thing that we crave and then we just want more and more and
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more? Or does it actually have positive benefits if what is triggering it is a positive thing?
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Yeah, yeah. So we can get like we can have dopamine activated in more healthy ways. So things
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like music can activate dopamine and we can get that good feeling, things like social connection,
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things like exercise and movement. There are those sort of healthier ways that we can get dopamine
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activated and that can form some really healthy habits for us as well. How can we then like create
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a link between our finances, dopamine and addiction? Because I think that there's we kind of joke a
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lot about like you might go spend money to try and feel a bit better. But I don't think that we're
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totally aware of how our chemicals and our brain are changing and how actually it can be more
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detrimental than we perhaps realize. Yeah, absolutely. Certainly for many people the experience of
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purchasing something releases dopamine. It's exciting. It's fun. It's new. Yeah, even the kind of
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like window shopping online browsing experience, same sort of thing because dopamine is activated
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when we get the thing, when we make the purchase, but also in the pursuit of it. So our dopamine is
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activated. As soon as I open the iconic browser or whatever it might be and I start browsing through,
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I'm already getting that dopamine activated, driving me to purchase something. And we see that
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people can actually develop quite unhealthy relationships with purchasing things and shopping
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and develop essentially shopping addictions as well. I've got a friend who I think has a shopping
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addiction. Actually, I've got two. I thought you were meeting me. I was like, Roos. No, no, no. Genuine
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addiction like their wardrobe is full of clothes that have tags on them. And another friend is just
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she's just constantly returning things. She orders stuff online and then she's constantly going
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back in to return them. Like it's this cycle that's just I'm just like, why bother how annoying?
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But is that an unhealthy habit? Do you know? Like if she's and I'm just I'm kind of playing
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devil's advocate here. It's like it's not impacting her well-being in a sense and in the act of
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I mean, being online probably is, but you know, she's purchasing, she's returning them. I know
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it's an addiction, but yeah, I'm just trying to understand kind of what makes it bad. Yeah,
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this is where I think it varies person to person. So if it's someone who it's like this is causing
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some financial strain or this is a person's way of kind of emotionally regulating themselves
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at the end of a stressful day and then they're regretting purchases and returning things or it's
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kind of, you know, meaning that they spend time shopping online and not getting enough sleep,
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for example, it's kind of like how does this impact someone's life in a negative way and maybe
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it doesn't, right? Maybe they just love to shop and that's kind of their thing and they return a
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lot of stuff when they don't quite like it, but there's no kind of harms in their life. But for
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another person, it might actually be quite harmful for them. Can you explain the relationship between
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dopamine and kind of that instant gratification when it comes to financial decision making?
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Yes, definitely dopamine can be a huge driver in encouraging people to spend finances because
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particularly if we're buying something that's maybe, you know, we don't get that when we're
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necessarily buying the groceries, you know, once a week, but it's sort of those purchases that maybe
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we don't need, but we would like to have or something maybe we've been saving for and then eventually
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we do purchase it and that's a really rewarding feeling as well. So it can be really healthy in
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the sense of if we've saved for something and then eventually purchase it and that's a, you know,
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big goal for us that you're certainly going to get that release of dopamine, but at the same time,
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we can also get it if we purchase something very regularly that we maybe we don't need.
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And why is it that you'd get a less of a dopamine hit from groceries than you would from say
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clothing? Is it because it's such a good question? Is it because you can wear it, you feel nice,
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it's that whole, you know, you're comparing yourself to others, whereas food you just eat and
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no one really sees. It's got to do with kind of newness. So the brain gets very excited by new
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and novel things. So purchasing something like a new outfit or like a new game if someone's into
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gaming or something like the newness is what's kind of exciting to the brain versus and it could
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be that if we go to the grocery store and we're like, you know what, I'm going to cook something
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different for dinner tonight and you get kind of a whole bunch of ingredients you've never bought
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before, you might still get that kind of dopamine release, but if it's like the weekly sort of
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shop where you're like yep toilet paper in the in the basket and some tissues and things
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that's less exciting to the brain. So we don't get that same dopamine release.
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How do we get out of the cycle or identify if it's unhealthy because I'm just thinking
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like firstly when you're saying that you even get a dopamine hit or release when you're just
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scrolling something, I'm like brilliant, I can scroll and then just not purchase, you know?
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But I guess what I'm trying to get at is similar to Vex Point. We're all addicted to so many things
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and I think if we looked at our life, we would all be able to pick stuff out and think okay,
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is this something that I can leave and that's not harming my life or is this one of those things
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that I need to look at my relationship and I'm just given example in my own life like I and this
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is like a bit of a joke, by the way, as in everyone laughs at me for it because it's so ridiculous,
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but I went through and I'm only kind of just starting to come out of it, even it's still to be
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honest, definitely an addiction and it sounds so stupid, but when I go to bed at night, particularly
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when I've had late meetings, my brain's so activated and I find it's so hard to wind down like I
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don't have enough time to stay awake for another two hours and then go to sleep because I have to
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get up early for work. So the easiest way for me to like switch my brain off and to go into
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total almost just like autopilot, I'll watch the same series again and again and again. It's like
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I watch Netflix and it's always gossip girl and I watch the same series just like time and time
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again and honestly it's like I wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that a friend said to me,
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I think you are underestimating how much that is scrambling your brain because going to sleep
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with a screen makes your brain like it's just not good for you. I think that it'll be affecting
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your cognitive function during the day without you realizing and up until that point I hadn't
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thought of it as being a detrimental habit because I would watch it, I would go to sleep.
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Like it did its job right so technically it wasn't like I was staying up till 4 a.m. watching
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love island because I wanted to know who coupled up with her. It was like I knew what was happening
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it put me to sleep. You know are there maybe things that you could use as examples that are similar
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to this that are like everyday addictions that people might not realize they're having a
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negative impact and then they can start looking at their behavior whether it's due with money or
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otherwise and ask themselves questions to figure out if the things they're doing are
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dopamine chasing that are negatively impacting your life versus those that are harmless.
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It's a really interesting example the one you give because I think on the one hand the screen
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is not great before bed you know we the research tells us that but because you're watching something
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that is familiar you're not chasing that excitement it's actually kind of not that dopamine
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activation is something that's really like comforting and soothing and sort of can put you to sleep
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and I've certainly heard of people doing similar kinds of things of watching reruns of series
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because they're kind of familiar and provide that really easy just like downtime and kind of escape
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into something that can like re-regulate the nervous system but I think if people are kind of
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questioning you know like is this healthy is this not healthy for me bringing it back to
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is this having a negative impact in my life right like if I spend a bit of time scrolling on online
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shopping platforms which sometimes I do you know sure I could be doing other more useful things in my day
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but it brings me some kind of joy it doesn't impact me too much financially I'm not missing meetings
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or not able to do the work that I need to do that day I'm not not socializing with friends or not
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having dinner with my family because of it so in in the kind of grand scheme of wanting to balance
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up doing the things that are important to us and also kind of just doing some stuff that might be
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enjoyable that doesn't really serve a purpose but it's just kind of nice to do does it kind of fit
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within that overall balance of our life what we find is that when people start to develop more of a
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serious addiction to something they start to remove themselves from doing things that are very
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aligned to their values so what are my values in life what are the things that are most
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meaningful and important to me and am I actually living my life in alignment with those or am I
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being pulled away by these more dopamine driven activities I used to have a pretty big online
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shopping addiction and so what it is to this especially during COVID there'd be like a few packages
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a day arriving at the door you know admittedly would you actually write that I actually sort of
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forgot about this because it was actually a lot that you were ordering wasn't it like in all
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seriousness there was quite a lot but I'm also all about convenience and for me jumping online
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ordering something rather than driving down to the shop and buying it like groceries for example or
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or you know anything I need face face cream or clothing or anything it's just easier to jump
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online and shop but then as I'm online I'm like oh there's something else that I don't actually
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need but that looks nice I'll add that to cart but now I've started to do that add to cart and
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just leave it in the cart so I've kind of I'm halfway there I guess of reducing that dopamine
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from actually like purchasing it and arriving are also saving myself a few pennies as well but
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is that bad because it's like I'm I getting the dopamine had I'm not actually spending I'm
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guess I'm scrolling online but I guess it comes back to what you say about am I removing myself
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from situations of you know hanging out with friends and family to go an online shop upstairs
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in my room and they're not actually buying anything yeah and the purchasing process can sometimes
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be that very like quick and automatic and kind of without some rational conscious thought right like
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I add to cart and then I buy it and it's exciting and it's done and now I'm going to wait for it to
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be delivered but there's something to be said for adding things to cart and then kind of letting
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it sit for a minute an hour however long kind of coming back to it do I actually still really want
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this like the more we can kind of slow down a decision making process the more kind of rational
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thought and more sort of like values based decisions we can allow for ourselves the faster we do
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something it's one of the reason why poker machines are so addictive because you can play them
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so quickly so the faster we do a process and and tech companies know this right how easy is it
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to purchase something credit cards are stored in our phone we unlock with face ID like
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there are very few kind of buffers along the way we can order Uber Eats so quickly I can
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I can buy anything super fast and that's that's part of what can make it sort of easy to buy
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something and then also maybe regret it later versus back in the day where you've got to get in the
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car you've got to drive out and get something it's like do I really want that take out is it worth
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the effort versus ordering on Uber Eats can we talk about regret as well because I know that's
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a big one for soft around so if you always we're not always sorry so if you often feels very guilty
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about buying things for herself and to be honest she doesn't spend a lot but when she does I find
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and I'm speaking about a few years off but I find that you you tend to feel guilty after you've
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purchased something especially if it's something of high value whereas yeah how do you get comfort in
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knowing that that was a considered okay decision and if you've got the funds you know you can you
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be able to enjoy that almost lean into having some dopamine from that rather than this this
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feeling of oh gosh I shouldn't have done that yeah it's a good question it's like everyone's
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kind of psychological relationship with money is a bit different and that's so very much
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impacted by you know the messages that we've been told around money and what money means and
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also kind of like spending on ourselves and what that means as well so just everyone's kind of
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perspective on this is is going to differ a bit depending on the experiences they've had growing
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up and the kind of messages that they've received but again it comes it comes back to that sort of
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I call it like this balance of like pleasure and and purpose like am I doing things that provide
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some sense of pleasure in my life and am I doing things that provide a sense of kind of meaning
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and purpose and like greater sense of satisfaction in my life as well and that's a constant balancing
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act I don't think we ever kind of fully find it and go with it but we're sort of always adjusting
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through life I would say my guilt has gotten less since I have better financial plans in place in
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terms of I know my numbers every month and I know how much well I'm getting better at it anyway
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how much I have to spend on things that are like once not the things that I need and so
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taking away that decision of should I or should not it's not a case of like I can spend whatever I want
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on the money I put aside for what I want it's just I'm the one that has to weigh up one
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versus the other so it's like if I'm buying a dress it will mean I probably can't go up for dinner
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and I just have to be okay with that decision I think before I had any kind of control over
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where my money was going I had such a financial anxiety because I didn't really know
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how much I should be spending on anything it was just constant guilt for everything like anything
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I spent money on I felt guilty whether it was groceries or a new dress I'd say that's
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lessened a lot but to your point about values and esthesia I think that
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what I've noticed about myself is the times that I get that guilt now it's generally because
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I bought something that's out of alignment like as in I love clothes and I love buying
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expensive things but I value other things more than that so when I spend money on that kind of
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thing I feel guilty about it because it's kind of against my values yeah yeah absolutely and I
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think a big part of it as well is like how conscious we are of what our values are because I can
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like if I have values that aren't aligned with sort of shopping and buying myself new clothes but I
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do it it's like am I making this conscious choice to do something that doesn't align with my values
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which many times in life will do and that's okay as long as we're kind of actively choosing it
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for ourselves rather than just sort of acting without thinking too much about it and then feeling
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bad afterwards so I might be like you know what I'm I'm saving to buy a property and all my money
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is going to go there but then I'm sort of online shopping and and spending money in other ways
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and that doesn't kind of feel aligned but if I'm like you know what there's this one dress I've been
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looking at it for a week a month however long I really want it I know it doesn't align with this
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value of saving for a property but I'm making this like conscious active choice to do something
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that doesn't align with that that can be a kind of healthy way for people to sort of balance those
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two things it comes down to the slowing down doesn't it it's just like I think when it comes to money
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emotions guilt dopamine all of the things it's just putting space between decisions
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to know that you're not doing something for a quick fix and the intention behind it and the
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reason that you're yeah like choosing to spend money on something is intentional I think that
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because it makes you feel like you're in control and I think that when it comes to online shopping
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or spending it's very easy to feel out of control but the space is what flip set on its head
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yes absolutely because you can get lost in that especially the online shopping experience there's
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so many different products it feels like there's endless amounts of things we could look at it's
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you know the platforms are usually quite easy to navigate and use a friendly and just like with
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social media you can kind of scroll endlessly you can scroll through endless pages of of outfits
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and things so it's really easy to kind of get lost in that and the companies that create these
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platforms and sites know that it's it's intentional to get you to spend what about buy now pay later
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companies because this is their jam they they want you to buy something right now even if you
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don't have the funds and it's really you're accelerating this instant gratification for a lot of
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particularly young people who probably can't afford the the clothes or the you know the laptops
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of the iPhones that they're actually purchasing with by now pay later so how has that kind of
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changed the landscape and you know yeah in terms of this whole conversation we're having about
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slowing down it's kind of doing the complete opposite yeah absolutely it's encouraging people to
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spend when they don't have the funds which means you can get that dopamine activation that
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excitement much more often much more quickly and easily than saving the money and then purchasing
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the thing that you've been wanting to purchase so definitely for people who maybe do tend to be
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a little bit more impulsive or do kind of seek that immediate gratification particularly in the
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realm of spending it can be really problematic for them and and they can accumulate a lot of debt
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really quickly it's also hard because you've got the you know when you have to pay for something
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after the fact and you've already had the thing like whether it's like you've been out for dinner
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and then your friend hits you up two weeks later and it's like can you transfer me 50 for dinner
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you're like oh that is so much more than when I've actually enjoyed the thing at that same time
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why is after a holiday that's always the worst yeah oh god or like a concert ticket that you've been
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to ages ago and then all of a sudden you have to but I don't know I think is there also psychological
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like the distance between the thing you're getting and the money that you spend the dopamine
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headers like it's so far apart that it feels even worse or something yeah yeah it certainly um feels
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easier or kind of more more gratifying in a way if we're paying for something at the sort of
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time of having the experience usually if the experience is a positive one we kind of go you know
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what I'm paying I had this good time I had this good experience that feels okay at least sort of
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like can make more peace with that kind of transaction but the longer time passes absolutely the
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harder it becomes to then kind of part with that money the the more we feel the sting of it yeah
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absolutely and flipping that on its head as well does it work the other way if you're like right
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I am going to save up for this concert and you know it's it's so right maybe it's maybe it's 12
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months away but you're saving up to go to this concert something that you really wanted to do
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is the dopamine hit bigger once you actually go to that because of the the effort that's gone into
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that well there's definitely the dopamine is activated we do get that and there's and the good
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thing is that like healthy healthy kind of dopamine activation is when we've got to put some
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effort into it so there's something about kind of like saving that yes I get that gratification
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but I also maybe feel good about myself as well because I've made this plan to save some money to
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do this thing I really want to do and now hey I'm doing it I achieved it so we can also get the
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added benefits of like the kind of self-esteem boost that comes with that I also just think planning
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in general like whether it's you know sitting goals for the year ahead or putting a financial plan
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in place before you've even done the thing you get the dopamine hit right so it's almost like
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that double whammy of like if you're saving towards something it's a plan you're you know so
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there's there's dopamine even just in the idea of being organized well for me there is anyway
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yes and you know how you're talking before about like handing the money over later kind of hurts
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a bit more it's the opposite as well like I know I've had experiences where I've gone away and I've
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like paid for the hotels before I've I've actually kind of been on the trip and then you kind of
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get there and they're like oh it's all paid for already and it's like oh fantastic this is great
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yeah yeah so sometimes kind of having paid for things in advance also kind of helps us
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enjoy that experience but certainly if we're saving and planning for something it gives us this
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double whammy of like yes we get the dopamine we get that kind of pleasure but it's probably also
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values aligns like if I've put a plan in place I probably have some value about financial security
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or planning or saving or financial goals for myself and so I'm getting both kind of the the
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gratification that dopamine gives me but also that bigger sense of like contentment in myself
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because I've done something values aligned thanks so much since with the clients that you see
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are you seeing an increase in I guess money related addictions or is it things like social media
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that is that you're really seeing increasing or is it by now pay later you know is that fueling
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these kind of money addictions anything tech related seems to be kind of on the rise so you know
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historically it was drugs and alcohol but now we're seeing a lot more online shopping online
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video games pornography gambling and online gambling as well and social media or just kind of like
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media in general anywhere where technology is kind of involved in keeping us on a platform
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we're definitely seeing people maybe not people who kind of have what I would refer to as like
28:05
an addiction but certainly it's creating some sort of negative impact in their life even dating
28:10
apps these days you know you can swipe endlessly get the same sort of dopamine activation the
28:15
companies know how this all works so anything where sort of tech is involved and the term they use
28:21
is sticky they want tech to be sticky so that you stay on there for as long as possible
28:27
we're seeing more of a rise of that in the clinic certainly maybe I should try that
28:31
instead of online shopping adding to car I'll just flick through dating apps and just
28:35
put them into the waiting room and then just never message them maybe that's
28:40
that sounds like just shifting one addiction to that yeah it's not really solving the problem is it
28:43
yeah have you seen a really bad financial addiction and what does it look like yes so I've
28:52
seen people who have some quite serious addictions usually to online shopping more than
28:58
kind of in-person shopping but I've definitely seen it with people who kind of do a combination of
29:02
both and what that looks like is taking out excessive amounts of loans of all different sorts
29:08
from all different kind of platforms and providers in order to keep purchasing things and then also
29:14
doing a lot of this taking stuff back like purchasing taking it back purchasing taking it back
29:19
but getting into this kind of web of chaos when it comes to sort of transactions and a load that's
29:26
probably too much for anyone to mentally be able to carry us to like what loans are currently
29:32
sort of in place what have I purchased what do I need to return when do I need to return it by
29:36
like it can become really sort of chaotic for a person and feel very out of their control
29:41
it's really scary and I think we need to be careful to not joke about it too much actually because
29:46
it sounds like it's a kind of a slippery slope and I guess there's probably a lot of people who
29:51
whether it's their phone whether it's online shopping have some form of unhealthy relationship
29:57
with something you know we hear a lot about dopamine detoxes are there any tips tricks from like
30:06
a low level perspective let's just say someone does do a lot of online shopping can just giving
30:10
yourself a ban for a certain period of time be a really good way to reset the system are there any
30:15
tips and tricks for people other than therapy yeah definitely taking a break from something
30:20
are for a period of time whether that sort of a week two weeks a month whatever feels kind of
30:25
realistic for a person is definitely useful but if we just take a break from something without
30:33
changing anything else in our life what will probably happen is that after that week or two weeks
30:37
we just go back to doing exactly what we were doing so I often recommend to people if you are
30:42
going to take that break use that time to do a bit of a deep dive into values reflections what's
30:49
actually important to me in life what's most meaningful what are the what are the things who are
30:53
the people that give me that greatest sense of like satisfaction and contentment when I'm 80 years
31:00
old how do I want to look back on the life that I've lived what choices do I want to have made for
31:05
myself what sort of person do I want to have been in my life and use that kind of time to reflect on
31:12
those questions and then go okay what adjustments can I make in my life so that I can be living at
31:17
more values aligned because the more satisfying life feels for us the more of a buffer we have from
31:24
getting kind of hooked into these dopamine driven activities so people will usually go back to doing
31:30
whatever it was some online shopping social media but hopefully they do that with a kind of richer
31:36
full of feeling in life which means that they can kind of maintain less of a hook with the
31:42
online shopping or with the social media what another solution be switching out the behavior or
31:48
trying to switch up the behavior with something that's a more healthy action that gives you dopamine
31:53
hit like I'm thinking for myself instead of sitting down at night and scrolling TikTok it's like
32:00
every time I go to do that I go for a walk around the block or something you know like switching out
32:05
that behavior can you imagine being like I'm just going to jump on TikTok actually now I'm going to
32:10
put my shoes on and my walking gear and I'm going to leave the house and I'm going to get my keys
32:14
like otherwise I'll just sit there and be like what what am I supposed to you know like you're trying
32:19
to fill that void of that time that you would normally spend doing exit whatever the activity is
32:24
like for you so and instead of watching gossip girl it's like okay right I'm going to read a book
32:29
or I'm going to meet a certain well I've been doing that I've been doing like a yoga knee
32:33
drought just put it on and I take my computer out of the room I know what you're trying to say I
32:38
think it would be really helpful actually to know with regards to finances because I think there's
32:43
probably a lot of people who have unhealthy relationships with dopamine driven financial behaviors
32:49
I imagine a lot of people listening to this episode will be thinking okay but what about specifically
32:53
with my money can we use that as an example yeah that I come back to like the easier something is
33:01
to do the more inclined we might be to do it the harder it is the more effortful it is the less likely
33:06
so your example about like TikTok versus going for a walk picking up my phone and opening TikTok will
33:11
take like half a second going for a walk putting on my shoes it's more effortful like it's a bit harder
33:17
so what we can do is try to make spending finances a bit harder so things like if you have a
33:24
card that you use not keeping a large amount of money so that if you do want to purchase something
33:28
you have to transfer into it not having cards stored in your browser or on your phone so that
33:33
you have to actually pull out your card and enter the number in anything where we can kind of
33:39
make it harder to go through that process gives our brain more time to kind of kick into that
33:45
rational thought and be like do I really want to make this purchase right now do I really want to
33:49
spend this money right now maybe it's kind of making agreements with yourself that I'll never you
33:55
make a purchase the first time I see something I'm going to always sit on it for at least two
34:00
hours right whatever kind of agreement with yourself works or maybe I'm going to sleep on it and
34:05
buy it the next day and I've certainly done that you know I love I love shows I love going to like
34:11
performances and shows and gigs and I'm seeing speakers and stuff and you can spend a lot of money
34:16
on those sorts of things and I remember one day I'm a speaker was coming out and I was like
34:22
oh it's a lot of money do I actually do I really want to go see this person I'm going to sleep
34:26
on it and tomorrow I'll make the decision about it so you know giving yourself time making some
34:33
agreements with yourself but also putting those like physical blocks in place like not keeping too
34:38
much money in cards and stuff like that can be helpful that's such good advice I did kind of what
34:43
you did I was like I when I was in my spending era and then I was like no I'm literally going
34:49
to sleep on it anything online that I want to purchase I'm literally going to give it 24 hours
34:54
and if I'm still thinking about it I'm still wanting it in 24 hours time then I'll purchase it
34:59
but I think that's such good advice is creating friction let's say I was to take myself shopping
35:04
and I get my card you know I've got my shoes on off I trot into the shop pick something up buy it
35:11
thank brilliant I've got that one thing I need and then all of a sudden the floodgates are open
35:16
and it's honestly the weirdest thing I experienced this like once I've started I can't stop and I don't
35:23
know if that's to do with dopamine or what that is but I would love to know if there's a psychological
35:29
understanding that could maybe try and when I'm in that situation will help me realize what's
35:35
going on to stop it before I do it because it's it's not necessarily outrageous stuff but I just
35:40
find like particularly with shopping aimlessly it's like if I've justified one purchase in fact the
35:47
skirt that I'm wearing is a really good example of that it was on sale I got it for like a really
35:51
really cheap amount and then I found myself in another shop and I thought oh well I've already
35:57
spent money on clothes like I'm quite all or nothing and I don't know if that's like dopamine or
36:03
that is but do you have any insight with that yeah it's again like that excitement it's like oh
36:10
this one that I bought felt good if I buy something else I'll I'll continue feeling good right it's
36:15
sort of like continuing on that experience I guess or building on that experience if I've bought
36:20
one thing and that was exciting and it felt nice and I'm going to keep kind of doing that in this
36:26
moment so definitely like dopamine being activated there even sometimes just the thought of walking
36:31
around shops and and seeing things and trying them on like the whole process can be quite exciting
36:38
if it's something people enjoy some people hate it and and couldn't think of anything worse but
36:42
for those who enjoyed it can be really quite exciting so I think again that's where going into
36:48
an experience like that maybe having made some sort of agreement with ourselves of like I'm only
36:53
going to spend X or I'm only going to spend this amount of time walking around the shops or you
36:57
know having a having a list on your phone of like what are some of the things I'm saving for what
37:02
are some of the more values based things I'd like to spend money on and having having that there
37:07
as a reminder in our phone that's something that that we often work with people to kind of have
37:12
some reminders in their phones of like the more satisfying values based things they would they
37:17
could be spending this money on okay that's really helpful because when we talk about investing
37:22
on the podcast and we talk about how it is you know there there aren't quick wins you if you're
37:27
investing to grow your wealth it is all about having patience and taking that long-term view
37:33
and completely it's all about delay gratification really but it seems to be one of the hardest
37:39
things for people to accept is you know I still get asked all the time from friends and family
37:45
like what's the best thing to invest in Vic and I know it's because they want a quick win they want
37:49
you know they want to the grow their money instantly and then go and spend it and so how do we
37:55
reframe that particularly in a world where with the younger generation it's like Instagram for
38:01
example and all of that it is you know you want to keep up with with your friends and what you're
38:05
seeing on social media in terms of what car you drive what clothes you wear you know how do we
38:11
break that into you know it's it's not about what you have now it's you know delay gratification
38:19
can be so great for so many reasons you know particularly you mean to health and dopamine or that
38:26
yeah that's that's where I think I often kind of asked people to think about themselves later in
38:31
life but like before I was like imagine yourself as an 80 year old thinking back on your life
38:35
and I think that gives people this sort of perspective on you know this moment feels really big like
38:41
the car I drive right now or the handbag that I'm buying like feels really important right now
38:45
but actually in the grand scheme of life when I'm an 80 year old looking back will I be like
38:49
I'm so glad I bought that expensive handbag or that expensive car when I was you know 20 something
38:55
years old or will I have rather have put that money towards other things in my life and I think
39:00
that like ability to just zoom out and see the big picture of our life can can help us with some of
39:05
those bigger financial decisions as well so many people probably be listening to this and they've
39:12
probably listened to our voices in there is we're a very long time sounds quite intimate no like
39:18
someone's ears yeah it's us wow it was not planned but if you have but you're still maybe a bit
39:29
on the fence of investing or you still want that little bit of hand holding like we totally get
39:34
it it takes a while to get comfortable it takes a while to get confidence but we thought
39:39
why not create a club to help bridge that gap and so we've creatives a curve investing club
39:45
and we want you to be a part of it we want you to go from an hour years to an hour club
39:50
yeah yeah if you want to find out more about what we talk about in the club we've got all sorts of
39:56
things like investing ideas to you know market insights to just like a real sense of community where
40:01
you can ask questions you can see what other people are investing it's a really cool space so
40:06
we'll put the link in the podcast show notes so you'd find out more and we do have a seven day trial
40:11
so there's no excuses you can try before you buy perfect we will see in there
40:19
I think for me one of the biggest things that's helped me if I think about my spending and like my
40:25
ability to hold back on buying things that I don't need or getting into the shopping cycle or
40:33
I don't know I truly think when you have bigger goals in mind that you've decided upon that
40:39
you're excited and you have even just a few small wins on the board it's enough to curb the
40:46
I'm almost gonna do something and as an example like there's been so many things like so many things
40:53
I should almost keep a list of them in the last three months since I've been really onto it with
40:59
like trying so hard to make sure that all of my money is allocated to different buckets and I
41:07
know what's the bucket means I've got like visuals in my online banking so like in my wands I have
41:12
like coffee, my chica cow like those are the three nice drinks that I would want to buy I'll spend
41:17
money on ubers because those are not essential it's like food out I've got a list so I can see
41:23
visually when I'm going to spend money and then it's the same with like with the things that I need
41:27
I know what I'm spending in that particular part of my online banking it's like very specific
41:33
with what that's for and I think for me when it then comes to going and spending money on things
41:38
that are the question mark because really it's discretionary right it's not the things that you need
41:42
people don't have issues spending money on groceries like that's not really a problem it's
41:48
for me the most helpful thing to stop myself before I begin to get to the regret has been
41:56
thinking about what I could spend it on if not this like weighing up what I want more has been
42:04
such an unlock so if it's if it's a top or if it's a flashy dinner out it's really thinking what
42:13
am I sacrificing by spending this money on this that I might actually want more because that's
42:19
going to give me a bigger dopamine hit and I feel so proud of myself every time I hold myself back
42:23
and I think that the more that I do it the more addicted I am to the good feeling afterwards
42:29
and also I think that the the more that I see my investments and my emergency fund grow
42:37
the more that I have that kind of like motivation to keep doing it I think that it's it's hard to
42:42
start and I think maybe it comes back to habit building and maybe this is something you could
42:46
share some insight on but I definitely think for me that the more that I'm stepping in the right
42:51
direction the more confidence I feel continuing to step in that direction and that's been super
42:57
super helpful for me absolutely that's that's so fantastic the way you describe that and as you
43:02
were saying like that experience of reflecting on do I want this or do I want something else more
43:08
that's I guess like as you say like a habit that's going to take time to sort of build but I imagine
43:12
once you've done that for kind of you know a couple of weeks it becomes a habit that's in
43:17
built that when you go to make a purchase it's like hang on let me do the decision making and you've
43:21
made the decision making process quite simple for yourself in that it's all kind of like mapped out
43:26
you know what things go in what buckets and and where it is so it's it's that moment of kind of
43:31
stopping and asking yourself that question and I think you're absolutely right that we build momentum
43:38
you know the more people are able to save and if you open the bank account and you see you know
43:43
we've got one of those like goal-saver accounts and you get your additional kind of credit for
43:48
the month of how much you've saved and that that's a really exciting feeling as well and the more we
43:53
can kind of lean into that the more we can get the dopamine activation from something else that's
43:57
quite exciting but also aligns with goals and values and has a positive outcome I mean I feel like
44:03
that's such a way to wrap up this conversation because it feels like a positive it's like you can
44:08
shift the way that you are addicted to dopamine to to work in your favor you can use that dopamine
44:14
hit for positive things it doesn't just have to be stuff that is a quick win that makes you feel
44:20
good for a second and then shit straight afterwards it's like if we change our habits and we change
44:25
our behaviour we still get those feelings it's just in a more healthy way and something that's
44:30
actually more sustainable in the long term yes sustainable is the keyword I think you you
44:35
bang on there oh this has been so helpful I feel like I've learned so much I'm gonna delete my
44:40
cards for my phone for a start I can't do that because I just seem too disorganized you know like
44:45
it's like that's the one thing like I'll lose my card then I won't know the number then I can't
44:50
I'm just saying no but I'm gonna give it a go give it a go for like a week because honestly it
44:53
does help when my when the numbers don't auto pop autopulate online and I'm trying to buy something
44:59
for my credit cards I go oh you know and then I just I don't buy it so doing that in real life
45:07
if I had to walk out of the store and then come back and actually when I had my cards because not
45:12
on my phone there'd probably a lot that I would end up not going back and buying thank you so much
45:18
for your time in Estonia it was like lovely to meet you and also I love the way you explain things
45:24
in such a it's like really not condescending and it's so easy to understand and I think when
45:29
someone who's done so much research in a space and has so much experience but yet can explain it
45:34
in a way that is just like so easy like so many penny drop moments excuse the pun I've really
45:42
yeah I've really enjoyed it so thank you so much thank you thank you no that was that was great
45:46
and you guys make it really easy as well so that's always a plus it's funny we usually do like
45:53
I don't know we bring a lot of humour to our podcast and I find this one was very informative and
45:58
useful and sometimes you need that so thank you so much yeah thank you so much for listening
46:05
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